for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

I am tired of this

Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 7:58 pm
I think that I am at least a moderately respected poster in these parts and most know that this type of opinion or overreaction is not my norm. I want to preface this by saying that I am not speaking out of emotion or frustration but more so disappointment.

This team has talent. There are talented players on the roster. The quarterback is a proven winner and extremely gifted. But yet, they flounder in mediocrity.

It’s the little things. The frequent, drive killing/drive extending penalties. The stubbornness/repetitiveness of play calling. What seems to be a lack of desire/motivation at times. What seems to be a lack of preparation. The mental errors and lack of in-game adjustments is maddening. The nagging injuries. They can’t win the close ones. They are making the critical mistakes to lose games. For a coach that emphasizes attention to detail, this is poorly coached team. They can’t make plays when plays need to be made on either side of the ball. The inconsistencies with this team are completely mind-boggling. Lately, this team has come up small in big spots.

My fear is that we are wasting away the prime years of the best QB this franchise has ever seen with poor coaching. There is too much talent on the roster to miss the playoffs 4 out of the last 5 seasons. Soon to be 5 out of the last 6 seasons.

For all intents and purposes, this season is over and it’s not even Halloween yet. For the second season in a row. I will always love Coughlin for what he has done for this franchise and I am forever grateful but the coaching staff from top to bottom has done a poor job. From preparation to in-game coaching to simple development of players.

It is time for a change. It was time for a change at the end of last season, but the proper changes were not made.

To be frank, I don’t really care if people disagree with this post and I don’t really care how this post is perceived. This team is too damn good to miss the playoffs so frequently.
Pages: 1 2 3 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
Vin_Cuccs  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/19/2014 8:41 pm : link
Everyone in Dallas was ready to fire their coaching staff last year.
I stopeed at 'moderately respected poster'....  
SHO'NUFF : 10/19/2014 8:41 pm : link
lol...j/k...

talent is a valid point, but good coaches can coach them up...we're not the only team with injuries.
.....  
Micko : 10/19/2014 8:44 pm : link
What happens if donell doesn't fumble the first one? Fine line between winning and losing here. We were in that game.
Eric  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 8:45 pm : link
I'm well aware they were ready to fire everyone. But what happened?

Marinelli came in and lit a fire under the asses of the defense.

Linehan came in and stabilized the offense and stopped Garrett from passing almost 70% of the time.

Now look. 6-1.
and who is teaching and/or drilling into his head  
SHO'NUFF : 10/19/2014 8:46 pm : link
Donnell to secure the ball?
....  
Micko : 10/19/2014 8:49 pm : link
The guy was doing everything he could to get a first down at a desperate time during the game? That's on TC? How about Eli for throwing a short pass on 3rd down?
Marinelli has made chicken salad  
SHO'NUFF : 10/19/2014 8:49 pm : link
out of chicken shit...Fewell? He turned chicken shit into dog shit...whatever that means...lol
......  
Micko : 10/19/2014 8:50 pm : link
We're two offensive lineman away for being a great offense.
If this is a result of emphasizing attention to detail...  
hitchchops : 10/19/2014 8:51 pm : link
...then he should try ignoring it for a few weeks, because some games it looks like they are figuring out a plan on the fly, and they often seem unprepared for what the opponent does best
personally i have a tough time with the notion  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 8:54 pm : link
That we have underachieved or left runs on the table during this era, my view is essentially the exact opposite. I still have no clue how we won the 2 sb we did. I will forever be grateful for it, but i also think what transpired was just about the best possible outcome with this group if you simulated this run a billion times. They were the ultimate overachievers that ive ever seen in the macro sense. Tough for me to take an argument to the contrary even if there are micro beefs that have validity. We had no business winning these 2 sbs though
^ oh c'mon  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 9:01 pm : link
I agree to an extent about SB46. That was a very poor team at times that year, esp on D, and they absolutely "got hot" to win it all.

But 2007 was filled with quality players. The LBs and secondary were so-so at times (although Webster's rise was crazy), but the Dline was borderline historically good, great D-coordinator, strong O-line, strong at the skill positions, rookies contributing. You can't argue SB42 was flukish b/c they played NE tight week 17, too.

The general point that this team has under Coughlin been mostly mediocre and fortunate to have these crazy highs is on point, however. Very frustrating. No consistency at all.

Will let the season play out, but if it's another 8-8 or worse year, I'm good with a chance.
change*  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 9:03 pm : link
obviously.
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 10/19/2014 9:05 pm : link
1) Chris r - the D was bad the year they won the SB also. They just got hot at the right time.

2) every year Fewell's D has had trouble getting pressure, ineffective blitzes, communication problems in the secondary, allowing teams off the hook on 3rd and long, failed to get the big stops when they ned them, etc. he sucks and should have been fired 2 years ago.

3) I love Coughlin and am thrilled he was hired when he was. But, if they fail to make the playoffs again, which looks very likely, then it is his time to go. For a couple of years now, we have been completely outplayed too many times. More importantly, we have played with a lack of discipline the is supposed to abhor.
Good thread.  
bceagle05 : 10/19/2014 9:08 pm : link
I'm just glad Eli is proving he has enough in the tank to get through another rebuilding cycle.

The mistake we made is starting the rebuilding process a year too late. We patched together a veteran roster last year on the faint hope we could play a Super Bowl at MetLife, and it blew up in our faces. We've made progress since then, but there's plenty more that needs to be done. It all starts in the trenches. We need to beef up our defensive line if we plan on stopping Dallas or Philly anytime soon. They have monster OLs.
Vin_Cuccs  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/19/2014 9:10 pm : link
they have the best OL in the NFL combined with premium talent at the skill positions. Pressure is off Romo now.

Coaching matters but Dallas is a much better team.
P.S.  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:10 pm : link
Dallas has beaten the Giants 3 in a row and 4 of the last 5.

Philadelphia has beaten the Giants 6 out of the last 9.

Just to make everyone aware.
the thing that bothers me most about hte Giants  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:12 pm : link
the past few years is we're just not very physical.

We get pushed around a lot on both lines.
Agree with you 100%!  
prdave73 : 10/19/2014 9:13 pm : link
Sure we could use some more talent at the Oline position, but this team does have some good talent. Unfortunately they lack good coaches.. It is time for change and hopefully it come soon..
both sb 42 and 46 were historically improbable  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 9:14 pm : link
The two of them both happening is incomprehensible. Any notion painting the gmen of this era as somehow having left a lot on the table is so tone deaf. Go ask the colts or pats or eagles fans of this past decade about that notion. This team had two incredibly well timed one month stretches, that both still could have easily been derailed at any point by literally a single play. They grossly overachieved in these instances and that wrongly colored the perception by some. This isnt some sob story about some destined dynasty who should have won 3 or 4 sbs and settled for two. This is instead the most improbable multi time champ for an era the nfl has ever produced. Exactly the opposite of how theyre painted by some here

im fine for moving on fro coughlin after this year too because it always goes stale. But please dont try and sell me on the gints of his era as having done anything but grossly overachieved to win the 2 sb they did
RE: the thing that bothers me most about hte Giants  
BlueHurricane : 10/19/2014 9:15 pm : link
In comment 11930382 chris r said:
Quote:
the past few years is we're just not very physical.

We get pushed around a lot on both lines.


That is on Reese.
RE: both sb 42 and 46 were historically improbable  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:16 pm : link
In comment 11930389 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
The two of them both happening is incomprehensible. Any notion painting the gmen of this era as somehow having left a lot on the table is so tone deaf. Go ask the colts or pats or eagles fans of this past decade about that notion. This team had two incredibly well timed one month stretches, that both still could have easily been derailed at any point by literally a single play. They grossly overachieved in these instances and that wrongly colored the perception by some. This isnt some sob story about some destined dynasty who should have won 3 or 4 sbs and settled for two. This is instead the most improbable multi time champ for an era the nfl has ever produced. Exactly the opposite of how theyre painted by some here

im fine for moving on fro coughlin after this year too because it always goes stale. But please dont try and sell me on the gints of his era as having done anything but grossly overachieved to win the 2 sb they did


2008 they were the best team in football.
yes, it's very simple  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 9:17 pm : link
Philly and Dallas have drafted well in recent years the Giants have not. You can only "patch" so many positions (Jennings when he's healthy at RB seems to have worked, for instance).

Walton, Mosley, maybe Pugh, Kiwi, Williams, Parker, Demps...these are JAGs or worse. And they're out there against quality opponents. Recipe for loss.
RE: P.S.  
SHO'NUFF : 10/19/2014 9:18 pm : link
In comment 11930378 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Dallas has beaten the Giants 3 in a row and 4 of the last 5.

Philadelphia has beaten the Giants 6 out of the last 9.

Just to make everyone aware.


usually the same way each time, too.

Dallas kills us with TEs and Philly D with the inside blitz.
I'm not disagreeing with you Eric, but....  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:19 pm : link
....but why are they the better team? Better coaching. Better player development.

Look at the line for example: sure Smith, Martin and Frederick are 1st all round picks.

Pugh is a 1st round pick and Richburg and Beatty are 2nd round picks. So they all have talent.

So why are Richburg, Beatty and Pugh so inconsistent why Smith, Martin and Frederick are considered some of the best? My guess is coaching.

Is Jerry Jones a superior GM to Jerry Reese? I am not buying that for a single minute. So what is the difference? Coaching and ability to develop young talent.

Example: Ronald Leary and Jeremy Purnell, both undrafted, played extremely well today. Why? They have grown in system and been developed.

I am looking squarely at Pat Flaherty in regards to the struggles of the offensive linemen.
The reality is  
giantsfan227B : 10/19/2014 9:21 pm : link
this team is mediocre at best. We have sucked against top competition over the last few seasons but beat teams like Houston, Atlanta and Washington. We have Indy, Seattle and SF coming up. At best we go 1-2. Plus we have Dallas and Philly. At best we go 2-3 in those games. Let's take a huge leap of faith and assume we beat Jacksonville, Tennessee, STL and Washington we will have 9 wins. And that is assuming we actually take 2 out of those very difficult games and don't choke against a team like the Rams who beat Seattle today.

I don't think we go 9-7. I think we will have another 7-9 record and that to me means it is time for a major change. Missing the playoffs year after year and then having 2 losing years in a row. You can't just say better luck next year.
RE: both sb 42 and 46 were historically improbable  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 9:21 pm : link
In comment 11930389 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
The two of them both happening is incomprehensible. Any notion painting the gmen of this era as somehow having left a lot on the table is so tone deaf. Go ask the colts or pats or eagles fans of this past decade about that notion. This team had two incredibly well timed one month stretches, that both still could have easily been derailed at any point by literally a single play. They grossly overachieved in these instances and that wrongly colored the perception by some. This isnt some sob story about some destined dynasty who should have won 3 or 4 sbs and settled for two. This is instead the most improbable multi time champ for an era the nfl has ever produced. Exactly the opposite of how theyre painted by some here

im fine for moving on fro coughlin after this year too because it always goes stale. But please dont try and sell me on the gints of his era as having done anything but grossly overachieved to win the 2 sb they did

I don't see how you can argue SB42 was "grossly overachieving". They were a quality team that just needed to figure some things out. After the 1st 2 games and outside of the Vikings debacle, every game was a win or pretty close that year.

The evidence that they were organically building a quality team and not a streaky fluke...look no further than the following season where, as chris points out, they were a juggernaut until fuckface shot himself.
SHO'NUFF  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:22 pm : link
I couldn't agree more.

And here is the issue I have: why aren't those adjustments made?

Everyone under the sun knows Philadelphia will blitz in the A gaps and Dallas will run intermediate routes with TE's. Why aren't there game plans to prevent this?
To elaborate  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:23 pm : link
42 wasn't overachieving; we continued that level of play most of the next season.

46 was overachieving.
chris r  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 9:26 pm : link
No such claim could ever be made definitively. For 3 months the giants were perceived as the best tesm. And most years the team viewed as the consensus best at that point in the season does not win the sb. That would have likely been the 08 giants fate too with or without plax. Because its hard to win a sb and a ton of things have to come together, including but not limited to peaking at the right time which is far from an exact science. All the more reason why its insane this group somehow won 2 sbs, and why its ridiculous to act like we have been robbed of some dynasty. We have been beyond incredibly likely
The Giantts went 15-1 over a 16 game stretch..  
Sean : 10/19/2014 9:27 pm : link
from the 07 playoffs through the 11-1 start in 08.

An improbable fluke towards that SB is off base.
I guess  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 9:27 pm : link
Flaherty forgot how to coach o-lineman? Some of the best lines the Giants have ever had came under his watch.
RE: chris r  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:30 pm : link
In comment 11930418 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
No such claim could ever be made definitively. For 3 months the giants were perceived as the best tesm. And most years the team viewed as the consensus best at that point in the season does not win the sb. That would have likely been the 08 giants fate too with or without plax. Because its hard to win a sb and a ton of things have to come together, including but not limited to peaking at the right time which is far from an exact science. All the more reason why its insane this group somehow won 2 sbs, and why its ridiculous to act like we have been robbed of some dynasty. We have been beyond incredibly likely


See my previous post. I'm not saying the Giants got unlucky because they didn't win in 08; just that that season "vindicated" the 42 win as not being flukish. As Sean points out, they were 15-1 from that stretch till Plax went down. You don't do that by fluke.
Fair post but  
AnishPatel : 10/19/2014 9:30 pm : link
I don't think this team is too damn talented. I think this team isn't that talented , at least offensively. I think missing in draft picks has hurt us. I think we are a work in progress and it sucks that its wasting away our QBs prime.

Its up to Reese and Ross to add a lot more talent to both sides of the ball. As for the coached, that's on TC. Let's put it this way it took Mara to say something to get a coaching change. Does he have to do it again ? What about adding more talent to the team? We have so many sports to add talent and not enough draft picks to cover it all. Will we break the bank and sign big time free agents? Perhaps go after Suh?
come on with the revisionist history  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 9:32 pm : link
Like the 07 giants were some hot pick to go all the way entering the playoffs. They were the first wildcard to ever win a title out of the nfc. They were even underdogs at tampa. They were touchdown plus dogs the next 3 weeks and even most of bbi had us losing to dallas for a 3rd time. Getting past that round was seen as an earth shaker, nevermind the events that even followed that. Are people trying to really sell the notion that the 07 giants were really anything other than one of the most improbable sb champs of all time? Because you would be wrong. And what they did in 2008 doesnt somehow change that
I doesn't matter what the experts saw  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:34 pm : link
The Giants were a legitimately talented team with by far the best OL/DL combo in the game and a young QB who just came into his own towards the end of the 2007 season.

From the end of 2007 till near the end of 2008, the Giants were the best team in football and it wasn't that close.
the 2007 giants by no ones definition  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 9:40 pm : link
Are anything other than one of the most improbable sb champions of all time. Any attempt to try to argue otherwise is just stunningly revisionist, and not widely held beyond the giants fanbase. That doesnt make the title count less. But its ridiculous to try and paint them as anything other than what they were.
Agree with much of your post Vin,  
j_rud : 10/19/2014 9:43 pm : link
especially just the general exasperation and the fear of wasting Eli. But I also think you're overeating the talent. Below average and inconsistent on the OL. Below average backfield. Suddenly very average receiving corp. Yet again, underperforming DEs, who are supposed to anchor the D. Nobody decent to put alongside Rolle and injuries have wiped out the CBs.

Dallas and Philly are better just about everywhere, on paper and as the last 2 weeks have proven on the field. Just about everywhere except QB, which brings us back to that mutual fear.
RE: the 2007 giants by no ones definition  
Sean : 10/19/2014 9:44 pm : link
In comment 11930468 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
Are anything other than one of the most improbable sb champions of all time. Any attempt to try to argue otherwise is just stunningly revisionist, and not widely held beyond the giants fanbase. That doesnt make the title count less. But its ridiculous to try and paint them as anything other than what they were.


however you slice it, the TC/Eli administration has two titles which is better than a lot of teams in the NFL. It must make Eagle fans sick just thinking about, which is damn nice.
Mook  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:48 pm : link
How else do you explain it?

Your telling me Beatty forgot how to play, Pugh regressed and Richburg is stagnant and Flaherty isn't to blame?

All high draft picks, all talented and now underachieving?

Flaherty has a wonderful history, I get that, but I am less than impressed over the last few seasons. Especially considering that Ron Leary and Jeremy Purnell (both undrafted) just put on a clinic.

How did they do so well? They (along with the other studs along the Dallas line) have been coached flawlessly.
Vin  
JonC : 10/19/2014 9:52 pm : link
Your paragraph beginning with the little things is accurate, imv, I'm been banging the drum as well for about two years.

But, it's also a lack of talent on the whole. There's a lot of pedestrian football players on this team, and there's a number of very young men seeing a lot of snaps because of injuries, and shite depth.

This was a 4-win team last season, it's probably a 6/7-win team this season if they can get some health intact. The OL, DL, LB, and DB ranks all lack parts, and the receiving corps is very young now. So, they're battling the sum of poor coaching, lack of talent, and growing pains all at once. Imo.

RE: Mook  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 9:52 pm : link
In comment 11930492 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
How else do you explain it?

Your telling me Beatty forgot how to play, Pugh regressed and Richburg is stagnant and Flaherty isn't to blame?

All high draft picks, all talented and now underachieving?

Flaherty has a wonderful history, I get that, but I am less than impressed over the last few seasons. Especially considering that Ron Leary and Jeremy Purnell (both undrafted) just put on a clinic.

How did they do so well? They (along with the other studs along the Dallas line) have been coached flawlessly.


I'm telling you that Beatty wasn't very good to begin with. Our offensive line got better when he got hurt in 2011. He's had exactly one decent season in his entire career here, never should have been given that type of contract. Pugh has to be hurt. Richburg is a rookie, not sure why you expect a rookie to play so well with hot garbage around him.

The Cowboys offensive line had many growing pains building this line. It didn't happen overnight, it took Smith time, even last year they were struggling in spots. They've built this over time, it didn't just magically happen because they have flawless coaching like you want to believe.
I still say Justin Pugh is playing hurt  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/19/2014 9:53 pm : link
that huge elbow brace is a red flag.
j_rud  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:55 pm : link
My confusion is the inconsistency.

So Pierre-Paul goes from 16.5 sacks to less than mediocre in less than 2 seasons?

Pugh goes from progressing and looking like the best lineman on the team to horrid?

The inconsistency, and more specifically, the regression is insane. When players regress like that after showing such promise, the blame has to be places at the feet of the coaching staff.

Or perhaps it is the scheme. Put your best players in positions to succeed.
Jon C  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:57 pm : link
In regards to talent: maybe the Giants aren't the most talented team in the league but on paper, they have just as much talent, if not more than both Dallas and Philadelphia.

That leads me to believe the coaching staff is underachieving.

Especially at the main position: QB.
back injuries  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 9:57 pm : link
tend to wreck players careers, but don't worry, that's the coaching staffs fault Vin!
They're also working through McAdoo's growing pains  
JonC : 10/19/2014 9:58 pm : link
as he's new to his role. And, Fewell's frequent oddball gameplans and in-game strategies continue.

A big problem is both lines are frequently losing their battles badly.
Maybe it was because of the contract year...  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:59 pm : link
...but how does Beatty just fall off a cliff? His technique has been atrocious. That is Flaherty.

Pugh in poor position? Getting beat regularly? Also Flaherty.
I think people  
TheNeumann64 : 10/19/2014 9:59 pm : link
say the 2007 team was really good all year when comparing them to the 2011 team. To clarify, both were amazing, magical runs, and I cannot describe how happy I am to have experienced either. But in my opinion, the 2007 team was pretty solid all year, had some struggles with a young QB, but 4 of their 6 losses came to teams that went 13-3 or 16-0. And hell, even Washington was a playoff team that year. They elevated their game amazingly from Week 16 on.

The 2011 team was pretty mediocre all year, until Week 16. Essentially almost every one of their games came down to whether or not Eli could drive them down to win in the last few minutes, and luckily he was able to a lot of the time. They too played 6 outstanding weeks of football when it mattered most, but if the comparison is 2007 Giants Games 1-14 v. 2011 Giants Games 1-14, I think the 2007 team was better by a mile.
Vin  
JonC : 10/19/2014 10:00 pm : link
I don't think we're far less talented than Philly, but Dallas has a lot of really good players right now. And, while they still occasionally show blips of past mistakes, they're generally playing much better and are seeing the fruits of stronger talent acquisitions.

Coaching is undoubtedly part of the problem, imv.
RE: Maybe it was because of the contract year...  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 10:00 pm : link
In comment 11930527 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
...but how does Beatty just fall off a cliff? His technique has been atrocious. That is Flaherty.

Pugh in poor position? Getting beat regularly? Also Flaherty.


Beatty didnt just fall off of a cliff. He had one fluke season in his entire career. We got better in 2011 when he got hurt, and that was with the turnstile David Diehl at left tackle.
Pages: 1 2 3 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner