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It doesn't have to be one thing....

arcarsenal : 10/20/2014 10:03 am
... but I think a lot of people are quick to find a coach to fire before looking at the personnel. The thing I notice after every loss is that a lot of posters will automatically decide that one party is at fault and make sure they identify who they think that person is to the rest of the board. It's usually Coughlin or Fewell. (Or Quinn) Before this year, it was often Gilbride. A lot of times it's Reese. Last year, Eli was that guy a lot. Mara will get it every once in a while. Basically anyone involved with this organization finds a way to have a loss fall squarely on their shoulders at some point. Some more than others.

But when I look at this team right now, I just see a team that seems undermanned compared to the cream of the crop in this league.

I watched Denver last night and you've got Peyton Manning lining up behind a solid line with arguably the best TE in football on one side of it. Demaryius Thomas, one of the fastest, most dynamic WR's in football, split wide. Wes Welker, one of the best slot WR's the NFL has seen. Emmanuel Sanders. Just weapon after weapon. You flip to the other side of the ball and you see Aquib Talib, DeMarcus Ware.. Von Miller.. the team has a LOT of talent. And it shows.

Poor Vic Fangio, on the other side of this, has to coach a defense without all 3 of his stud LB's (Bowman, Smith, Willis) and sees his defense get absolutely annihilated. Run off the field. They didn't even look like they belonged in the same league. It was embarrassing. And just last year, this was a top 5 defense. (I wonder if personnel matters)

Coming into this year, I liked what we did personnel-wise on the defensive side of the ball. I thought if we could keep this group healthy, we'd do alright. But then Will Hill was gone. Thurmond didn't even get through 2 games. His replacement, McBride, doesn't make it much further than that before having to hit IR. DRC has been banged up to the point of ineffectiveness. We have one good safety.

You've got a linebacking corps with 3 of your best players better suited to play in the middle than outside (Beason, McClain, Kennard) and no one who is really thriving at either SAM or WILL.

Hankins is for real but who on this DL has been excelling in getting to the QB? JPP has shown a flash here and there but he's just not the same guy he was in 2011.

Offensively, the OL has been up and down. We lost David Wilson permanently in camp and got into a situation where we could not afford to lose Jennings or Williams and then we lost Jennings right before two crucial division games. We lost Cruz for the year.

Maybe the coaching could be better. But the game yesterday was just a different feeling for me. Even after we took the lead on the Fells TD, it just felt like a matter of when, not if that Dallas would eventually take the lead back for good. Their OL is much better than ours. They have a workhorse RB they're riding hard right now and Dez Bryant is still one of the most talented WR's in football. Offensively, I just didn't feel like we had the horses to keep pace (though I felt it was a mistake not putting the ball in Eli's hands earlier than we did) They're a better team than us.

Right now, I think the Giants are just one of those middling teams in the NFL. Not a playoff team, not a bad team. We're just.. ok.
To boil it down to one thing - Donnell fumbling killed the game  
mattlawson : 10/20/2014 10:14 am : link
we could have driven down and tied it up. The second fumble, poetic justice. But until Donnell fumbled we had time to drive down and score there. OL stunk, Run game stunk, etc, etc, etc. Despite all that we could have driven down there and scored and made a game of it.
Terrible post.  
Rick5 : 10/20/2014 10:19 am : link
We'd be 7-0 with this exact same roster and Cowher at the helm. Amirite?
This team looks like the best of the worst  
Chef : 10/20/2014 10:20 am : link
a 7-9 team at best
matt...  
arcarsenal : 10/20/2014 10:21 am : link
Who knows. Maybe we would have scored, maybe we wouldn't have.

There's just too much moving backwards offensively. The amount of 3rd and 10+'s we've seen these last two weeks especially have been alarming.
Well being just ok is getting us nowhere fast  
Giants4246 : 10/20/2014 10:22 am : link
It was mind boggling trying to force the run yesterday, the penalties were maddening and godforbid the fucking defense can get off the fucking field on 3rd down. Add in a few fumbles and you know the rest. This team has 7-9, 8-8 written all over it.
I've maintained for awhile..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/20/2014 10:27 am : link
that there is a giant mass of about 20 teams in today's NFL.

Injuries tend to actually swing the pendulum for the vast majority of that mass from one way or the other and you just have to hope that if you do get injuries, they aren't key or clustered.

Unfortunately, the Giants haven't had much luck in that area in some time.

I also don't think most fans understand the game well enough to intelligently comment where the fault lies, so they make those reactions emotionally. That's probably the most frustrating part about BBI - both in wins and losses.
Well done Arc ...  
Stufftherun : 10/20/2014 10:33 am : link
This team just does not have the resources to overcome the loss of key position players, the dearth of talent at some of those positions thusly we're seeing the margin for error narrowing by the week. Can't afford false starts, holding penalties and turnovers at any juncture of the game and If everyone isn't playing at their highest level there's little to no chance of overcoming any adversity, period.
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 10/20/2014 10:55 am : link
1) I think we still have, even with injuries and suspensions, enough talent on D to be better than they are. Is it top flight talent all around? No. But, it talent enough to be in the top 1/3 of the league. Yet, every year under Fewell, regardless of personnel, this is a bottom 1/3 or worse D.

2) Obviously, he is one coach I think should be gone, but I have felt that way for more than 2 years for a variety of reasons.

3) There are already people calling for McAdoo gone, which is way too early. However, I will say his playcalling the last 2 weeks has been headscratchingly bad. It has seemed to have been counter to what was working for the 4 games prior.

4) I love Coughlin and truly appreciate everything he has brought to the franchise. I was thrilled when he was hired and have been pleased ever since. That said, I find it hard to not at least consider letting him go if they fail to make the playoffs again. I don't subscribe to the notion that the two titles buy him a free pass for life. 4 seasons in a row of mediocre to bad football is not good, especially when this team has been consistently undisciplined (penalties and mistakes) and outplayed badly.
Great post arc  
nicky43 : 10/20/2014 11:08 am : link
Couldn't agree more. And I admit I'm guilty of wanting Reece fired and have wanted that for a while.
agree with most of your post  
hitdog42 : 10/20/2014 11:13 am : link
but if I don't feel we are giving the players the best chance to win...i.e. giving hillis as many touches as ODB had targets... and running 3 times in a row to start the game... and running over and over again into a brick wall.... then I would be happier to just focus on personnel... where we are underwhelming as well.
the talent is not there, but we get terrible penalties... don't play moore... leave demps in there... do these things that just are VERY ODD.
I would like to be able to come to the talent conclusion after seeing us play an attacking game --- not some passive game plan on both sides of the ball.
I am tired of the excuses  
dep026 : 10/20/2014 11:19 am : link
for the defense. Outside a 6 game stretch (albeit an important 6 games) we have seen blitzes rarely get home, TEs open all day, soft cover 2, big time WRs having field days. DTs in coverage. A guy named Fenner somehow matched up with Bryant (that should never happen regardless of where Dez lines up).

We have a major problem defensively. Its either Fewell's problem or Reese's probplem. I see Dallas' defense have absolutely ZERO talent and at least look competent this year. so either Reese needs to go because he supplies the personnel. Or Fewell has to go because the defense has looked the same for about 4 years now.

And Reese isnt going anywhere, nor should he. The other guy..... he can go for all I care.
it was great seeing the DT in coverage  
hitdog42 : 10/20/2014 11:20 am : link
on a key 3rd down yesterday... drop 8.... TE finds soft spot... conversion... no pressure.... another day in the life
when was the last time this team could cover a TE?  
Greg from LI : 10/20/2014 11:21 am : link
2007?
RE: I've maintained for awhile..  
Rick5 : 10/20/2014 11:25 am : link
In comment 11931262 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

I also don't think most fans understand the game well enough to intelligently comment where the fault lies, so they make those reactions emotionally. That's probably the most frustrating part about BBI - both in wins and losses.


Yes. I'm sure that's true but there are other factors too. The available information is very limited even for "experts." When people talk about problems with "coaching" (for example), that's based on the three hours that they see on TV each week. Nobody has a clue what was discussed for countless hours prior to a game, observed in practices, seen on film, etc., etc., etc. Yet, some people seem pretty damn sure they can judge it all from a few plays on TV.
RE: it was great seeing the DT in coverage  
Stufftherun : 10/20/2014 11:29 am : link
In comment 11931475 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
on a key 3rd down yesterday... drop 8.... TE finds soft spot... conversion... no pressure.... another day in the life


By far my favorite defensive play call ...drop a DT into a zone coverage when we're getting zero push/pressure and no one within 5 yards of Romo.
RE: A few thoughts  
arcarsenal : 10/20/2014 2:18 pm : link
In comment 11931382 Matt M. said:
Quote:
1) I think we still have, even with injuries and suspensions, enough talent on D to be better than they are. Is it top flight talent all around? No. But, it talent enough to be in the top 1/3 of the league. Yet, every year under Fewell, regardless of personnel, this is a bottom 1/3 or worse D.

2) Obviously, he is one coach I think should be gone, but I have felt that way for more than 2 years for a variety of reasons.

3) There are already people calling for McAdoo gone, which is way too early. However, I will say his playcalling the last 2 weeks has been headscratchingly bad. It has seemed to have been counter to what was working for the 4 games prior.

4) I love Coughlin and truly appreciate everything he has brought to the franchise. I was thrilled when he was hired and have been pleased ever since. That said, I find it hard to not at least consider letting him go if they fail to make the playoffs again. I don't subscribe to the notion that the two titles buy him a free pass for life. 4 seasons in a row of mediocre to bad football is not good, especially when this team has been consistently undisciplined (penalties and mistakes) and outplayed badly.


If you think this is should be a top 10 defense with the personnel we have right now, I just completely disagree.

Again, we have 1 good safety. Signed a guy to be our nickel CB and lost him right away, lost his BACKUP.. now we're down to having to field Jayron Hosley or Chandler Fenner in these situations and neither player is any good. DRC is playing at about 50%. We have one good, healthy DB... Prince. Bowman is serviceable but again, you could see yesterday why he's not a starter.

I agree with hitdog that the offensive approach yesterday made little sense. I thought we forced the run way too long when it was apparent it was not working. We should have put the ball in Eli's hands sooner because Marinelli was leaving his corners with no help.. and whenever we actually tested them, we beat them.

Also, this perception that Dallas' D is playing so well is slightly overstated. They were allowing the highest YPC number of almost any NFL defense going into the game yesterday and their offense is averaging the longest drive time per possession which helps their defense. The best defense sometimes is good offense. Dallas' offense is constantly gaining them favorable field position and moving the ball and allowing their own defense time to rest.
RE: matt...  
Bleedin Blue : 10/20/2014 2:28 pm : link
In comment 11931243 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Who knows. Maybe we would have scored, maybe we wouldn't have.

There's just too much moving backwards offensively. The amount of 3rd and 10+'s we've seen these last two weeks especially have been alarming.


Arc, I agree with your post, but you say "The amount of 3rd and 10+'s we've seen these last two weeks especially have been alarming." It's not when the other teams have the ball!! I sit and watch this team time and time again get an opposing team in a hole on third down only to give up a pass for a first down! this has to STOP!
RE: RE: matt...  
arcarsenal : 10/20/2014 2:35 pm : link
In comment 11932051 Bleedin Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 11931243 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Who knows. Maybe we would have scored, maybe we wouldn't have.

There's just too much moving backwards offensively. The amount of 3rd and 10+'s we've seen these last two weeks especially have been alarming.



Arc, I agree with your post, but you say "The amount of 3rd and 10+'s we've seen these last two weeks especially have been alarming." It's not when the other teams have the ball!! I sit and watch this team time and time again get an opposing team in a hole on third down only to give up a pass for a first down! this has to STOP!


Yesterday we sucked on 3rd down defensively but prior to that we hadn't been bad. Going into yesterdays game, we were 3rd in the NFL in 3rd down conversion rate against.

It's hard when your front 4 just get stonewalled constantly and Dallas' OL is arguably the best in football. Outside of JPP, barely anyone was even getting near Romo. The blitzes just got stuffed, too.. or in the case of Quintin Demps, he had a clear lane to Romo and missed anyway.
RE: I've maintained for awhile..  
oldutican : 10/20/2014 2:39 pm : link
In comment 11931262 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that there is a giant mass of about 20 teams in today's NFL.

Injuries tend to actually swing the pendulum for the vast majority of that mass from one way or the other and you just have to hope that if you do get injuries, they aren't key or clustered.


Came to the same conclusion years ago. My sense is you are among the most football smart guys here, and a big theme for you is that people dont know what is actually going on with a team, so they shouldnt make judgements.

But I do believe because we follow NYG so closely, we have a legit feel for what is working and what is not. My feel is that they lack talent and are not well prepared, and that winning 2 SBs was a great feat, but came with a whole lot of good fortune.

Am I off-base to believe Coughlin's run should be done, and that such an overhaul is needed to breakout of the pack?
Didn't they obviously blitz on the Dez Bryant TD  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/20/2014 2:39 pm : link
and got burned anyway?

And yet people act like Blitzing and screen passes fixes everything.
Yeah, and we played up on Dez with Prince a few times..  
arcarsenal : 10/20/2014 2:42 pm : link
Got beat for a TD, gave up a couple of other completions and there was another one that should have gone for a TD but Romo underthrew Dez just enough to let Prince recover.

Then on another play, Dez lined up in the slot and got singled up on Fenner and had another big play.

But if you read this board, we only give up plays because of "soft zone" coverage.
RE: Didn't they obviously blitz on the Dez Bryant TD  
Greg from LI : 10/20/2014 2:44 pm : link
In comment 11932078 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
and got burned anyway?

And yet people act like Blitzing and screen passes fixes everything.


Well, that speaks to another issue, the Giants' inability to blitz effectively. Part of that is talent - the last LB they had who was effective on the blitz was probably Kavika Mitchell, or even Torbor.
Personnel  
Go Terps : 10/20/2014 2:44 pm : link
Look at the 5 drafts between 2008-2012, and the return we've gotten from them. We should be talking about a dynamic pass offense featuring Barden, Jernigan, and Beckum. A secondary where Hosley locks down the slot and Chad Jones partners with Rolle. David Wilson breaking games open. Shit, Matt Dodge pinning opponents deep.

I really hope this season doesn't fall apart, because I don't believe in exchanging proven competent coaching for a question mark.
Good post arc  
Patrick77 : 10/20/2014 2:57 pm : link
The Giants have 5 good players on defense who's talent level would be ranked highly around the league. They played last night with Hosley, Bowman, and Fenner playing time at corner. Demps and Stevie Brown often saw the field (both are terrible). Mcclain and Beason are slow but can stuff the run inside and know where to be, even if they can't get there in time. JPP and Hankins can take plays over but not every play.

Other than working on tackling and miscommunications there isn't a lot to work with to improve the defense IMO. Going press man every play, playing cover 1 or cover 0 and/or blitzing is a recipe for disaster against any NFL QB who can read the Giants defense or has a receiving option who can beat the likes of Fenner, Beason, Mcclain, and Demps (a 3rd string TE could beat these guys).

On offense the Giants sorely need running back depth, another tight end, another WR and at least 1 good starter either at Guard or Center right now. Teams don't fear Randle or Parker after the catch, or Fells', Robinson's and Donnell's blocking. At running back the Giants currently have 2 guys who are better suited to blocking on special teams.

It is what it is, and changing coaches isn't going to improve the talent level of the roster. Blaming the Giants woes on injuries isn't the answer either. Every team gets hurt, the Giants lack depth almost everywhere so even when one area gets decimated there is no group (linebackers, DBs, dline, receivers, etc...) to pick up the slack and salvage the team's play.
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