Re-watching tape: Cullen Jenkins vs Zack Martin

that's awful news.

Agreed. He is already their best OL. That said, I think the number of people who keep looking back at the draft and not selecting him are misguided. It's not like we bombed with our pick. If we had Martin and not Beckham, would our season look significantly better right now? I'm not so sure.

Funny, in the NYDN Hank Gola preview yesterday, the "Scout Says" blurb was that Martin has been a beast, seems to take out "two at a time". You wouldn't have a collapsing middle with him at RG.

Well, maybe a smaller collapse since Walton would probably still be in there. :-)

as long as Beckham continues to pan out, I have no problem with the pick.

We have equally huge holes at WR and OL.

But Martin is a stud. So is their OC and LT.

In comment 11931857 Matt M. said:

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Agreed. He is already their best OL. That said, I think the number of people who keep looking back at the draft and not selecting him are misguided. It's not like we bombed with our pick. If we had Martin and not Beckham, would our season look significantly better right now? I'm not so sure.

'

I'm not looking back. I said it on draft day. I was floored when the Giants passed on him.

If you add up the number of times John Jerry has blown a play and it has killed a drive I imagine you could argue that the Giants could have a significantly better record. Sometimes it's just one block that keeps a drive alive.

was probably the best offensive lineman in the draft. Not unhappy with the Beckham pick as he looks legit, but would have prefered Martin. But Beckham and Richburg was a pretty good draft.

In comment 11931866 Eric from BBI said:

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as long as Beckham continues to pan out, I have no problem with the pick. We have equally huge holes at WR and OL. But Martin is a stud. So is their OC and LT.

The problem there is with the shitty line play Eli can't wait for Beckham to get deep on anyone. I would argue that they could get more big plays with just competent receivers and a stud line than with great WRs and a poor line. Give Eli the time and he will make the plays. He has proven it again and again.

that our DE recorded tow sacks on and was a force against the run.

And if we do we basically would have done the same thing Dallas did. We are just one year behind them in the progression. Richburgh is a very good player as well. Pugh has looked like he can play. Add another and the line will no longer be an issue.

holes that we had to fill, I am not upset with Beckham and Richburg. Going forward, it will be easier for us to find quality guards over a possible number 1 WR. So I am fine with it.

you are forgetting that at that point, the Giants had signed Schwartz and thought that Snee would be able to go. Not saying I agree with it as I was hoping they would take Martin.

In comment 11931894 Bernie said:

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you are forgetting that at that point, the Giants had signed Schwartz and thought that Snee would be able to go. Not saying I agree with it as I was hoping they would take Martin.

Counting on Snee was just plain stupid. He hasn't been healthy for 3 years

In comment 11931894 Bernie said:

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you are forgetting that at that point, the Giants had signed Schwartz and thought that Snee would be able to go. Not saying I agree with it as I was hoping they would take Martin.

I hope they didn't think Snee could go.

And if they'd taken Martin they wouldn't have taken Richburg. So it's not as if the OL wouldn't still have holes. Rome wasn't built in a day.

I actually agree with both of you. I was surprised they passed on Martin, but happy they selected Beckham. Without Beckham, right now, WR would be a huge hole with Cruz done for the year and a question for well he can perform next year. So, their OL would be a little better, but their WRs would be far worse.

Think about it this way...right now our best OL might be Richburg. If we drafted Martin, we probably wouldn't have drafted Richburg. So, we would only have been upgrading our lone decent spot on the OL.

who is also 33 years old, might want to weigh that in

if they had our WRs, tell me about how potent that Dallas O would be.

for those 2 positions. Since Eli came, they have used numerous premium picks on WRs, and very few on O-linemen. Yes, they have lost Wrs to injury and FA, but it sure seems they believe Eli needs WRs more than o-linemen.

As I've said many times, they should have taken Martin.

meaning the Mara's are at fault.

In comment 11931911 oldutican said:

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for those 2 positions. Since Eli came, they have used numerous premium picks on WRs, and very few on O-linemen. Yes, they have lost Wrs to injury and FA, but it sure seems they believe Eli needs WRs more than o-linemen.

They've long believed you can get offensive linemen without drafting in the first round. And why not? the offensive line TC built when he first got here didn't have high profile guys other than Snee, and 2nd pick.

O'Hara was a cast off from a perennial loser franchise, Seubert undrafted, and Diehl a late-round guy.

.

I think we did a good job.

What if next year the NYG copy this blue print from Dallas. get a stud tackle and move pugh inside and richburg to center.

We are on the same track they ran (but we also have a stud WR too)

Draft another lineman in the first or second next year and we will be fine.

Martin would have been a much better pick. And we absolutely would have a better record.

Romo had all day to throw, with nobody around him. Eli had no time at all.

If you give a good QB all day to throw, somebody will get open.

I love Beckham, but he was not the right pick.

would suddenly mean Eli has all day to throw.

He does not have 10 arms.

there are some pretty good football players in the NFL.

but adding a WR doesn't solve the problems.

we should have drafting OL until it's fixed. it starts with the OL.

guess what, we suck. and we're gonna suck next week too. get used to it.

I don't think it's fair to say he would have been a much better pick. Our OL would look a little better, but not significantly because he would repalce our best OL to date, in Richburg. Who knows who the Giants would have selected next, but it probably wouldn't have been Richburg. Now, if the Giants took those guys 1 and 2, then I think our OL would have had a significantly better look.

but my point is that our OL is terrible and it needs to be fixed. even if it requires drastic measures.

I'd rather have a stud OL and let the FO go find receivers than an OL that is just bad with good receivers.

Free Agent dollars spent on OL.

They are addressing it.

The right way to do this is not drafting 7 OL in a single year just to appease people and improve your chances of hitting a home run. They needed talent in other places too.

The Cowboys have been rebuilding their offensive line since they drafted Tyron Smith in 2011.

but we picked a RB in the first just a couple of years ago.

that was just stupid. if there's one position you can pick up later in the draft or in free agency it's RB.

it's not about appeasement. it's about being smart.

happy to debate it, but we suck. and until our OL gets better we will continue to suck.

In comment 11931878 Victor in CT said:

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The problem there is with the shitty line play Eli can't wait for Beckham to get deep on anyone. I would argue that they could get more big plays with just competent receivers and a stud line than with great WRs and a poor line. Give Eli the time and he will make the plays. He has proven it again and again.

Seriously? 5 of the 7 games this year Eli has had plenty of time to throw. They barely touched him yesterday. Sure the run blocking has been awful the past 2 weeks, but come on Eli had time yesterday. The problem is our coaching staff put out one of the most pathetically play scared game plans I have ever seen in almost 40 years of watching this team.

would have been nice in the 3rd round. He is starting right now for the Bills at LG. Even Gabe Jackson is looking good and has started for the Raiders at LG. Point is that we should have drafted another lineman in the 3rd round. It would be better than having Jerry or Walton right now.

It would be Randle and Parker as the top 2 WR's. A talent at WR is far more of a commodity than a OG, plain and simple. Hindsight GM is a dangerous game to play. The OBJ pick was a good one.

You want (with hindsight) Martin & either Lee or Matthews.
No thanks. I'd rather have Beckham & Richburg. So did the NY Giants brass.

we drafted OBJ because our WRs were some of the worst in the league.

Randle will probably be nothing more than average, Cruz's career is done. OBJ is going to be a very good WR. Lets be happy we have him.

In comment 11932030 BLUATHRT said:

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It would be Randle and Parker as the top 2 WR's. A talent at WR is far more of a commodity than a OG, plain and simple. Hindsight GM is a dangerous game to play. The OBJ pick was a good one.

It's not hindsight when you say it ahead of time.

I disagree with you. You have to build from the lines out. We're starting Walton and Jerry. Enough said.

In comment 11932038 jeff57 said:

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In comment 11932030 BLUATHRT said: Quote: It would be Randle and Parker as the top 2 WR's. A talent at WR is far more of a commodity than a OG, plain and simple. Hindsight GM is a dangerous game to play. The OBJ pick was a good one. It's not hindsight when you say it ahead of time. I disagree with you. You have to build from the lines out. We're starting Walton and Jerry. Enough said.

Take Jerry out of the equation because Schwartz should be starting.

In comment 11931993 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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The Cowboys have been rebuilding their offensive line since they drafted Tyron Smith in 2011.

This is something to keep in mind. It's been a multiyear process for Dallas.

The pick that should be in questions is the 3rd round pick for Bromley. We could have gotten a starter at guard in that spot.

In comment 11931993 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Free Agent dollars spent on OL. They are addressing it. The right way to do this is not drafting 7 OL in a single year just to appease people and improve your chances of hitting a home run. They needed talent in other places too. The Cowboys have been rebuilding their offensive line since they drafted Tyron Smith in 2011.

Bingo. So many posters here act like we ignored the OL this offseason. Using a #1 draft pick, #2 and signing a big dollar free agent his hardly ignoring the line. As huge a need as OL was this offseason it was far from our only need.

last week on the NFL Network but it was all about the draft. The interesting thing in the war room is that there was very little hesitation about their picks this year. Virtually none at all. They were all in agreement, especially as the draft wore on. I mean they even discussed trading up for Andre Williams. There seemed to be little to no hesitation about taking Beckham there over Martin. They were all over Richburg too. They even showed tape from the Senior Bowl and them gushing over him there as the best C in the draft.

In comment 11932044 TruBlue56 said:

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The pick that should be in questions is the 3rd round pick for Bromley. We could have gotten a starter at guard in that spot.

You mean, never play Jay?

The mistake wasn't passing on Martin, it was not targeting the OL more around 2012 when it was painfully obvious that we needed to start rebuilding it. After taking Beatty in the 2nd rd in 2009, we went 3 straight years without taking an offensive lineman any higher than the 4th round.

.. Joseph spent most of his Sundays inactive in 2010. It's not terribly abnormal, nor is it an indictment on the player.

suddenly the joke about Bromley never playing isn't so funny.

who on our current OL would you call a "stud"?

In comment 11932057 arcarsenal said:

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.. Joseph spent most of his Sundays inactive in 2010. It's not terribly abnormal, nor is it an indictment on the player.

I'd like to see how many third rounders this year haven't gotten on the field.

The success of a line that featured 5th rounder Diehl, UDFA Seubert, and unheralded FA signee (and former UDFA) O'Hara made the Giants way too sanguine about their ability to mine diamonds in the rough for the OL. They drafted a gaggle of OL in rounds 4-7 for years, and struck out with all of them - plus Beatty hasn't been a runaway success with a second round pick.

In comment 11932070 jeff57 said:

Quote:

In comment 11932057 arcarsenal said: Quote: .. Joseph spent most of his Sundays inactive in 2010. It's not terribly abnormal, nor is it an indictment on the player. I'd like to see how many third rounders this year haven't gotten on the field.

The Giants rarely play DTs in their first year (Hankins, Linval Joseph). I'm not concerned about Bromley at all.

I agree that the 2009-2012 drafts are the issue here. Especially that Sintim pick, good grief.

could you imagine what this receiving corps would look like?

In comment 11932077 Greg from LI said:

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The success of a line that featured 5th rounder Diehl, UDFA Seubert, and unheralded FA signee (and former UDFA) O'Hara made the Giants way too sanguine about their ability to mine diamonds in the rough for the OL. They drafted a gaggle of OL in rounds 4-7 for years, and struck out with all of them - plus Beatty hasn't been a runaway success with a second round pick.

Yep

If the Giants were choosing between Beckham and Martin at #12, and both are really good football players, then maybe that says something positive about the scouting department.

OBJ is better.

'nuff said.

In comment 11932077 Greg from LI said:

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The success of a line that featured 5th rounder Diehl, UDFA Seubert, and unheralded FA signee (and former UDFA) O'Hara made the Giants way too sanguine about their ability to mine diamonds in the rough for the OL. They drafted a gaggle of OL in rounds 4-7 for years, and struck out with all of them - plus Beatty hasn't been a runaway success with a second round pick.

I think you're precisely right.

In comment 11932070 jeff57 said:

Quote:

In comment 11932057 arcarsenal said: Quote: .. Joseph spent most of his Sundays inactive in 2010. It's not terribly abnormal, nor is it an indictment on the player. I'd like to see how many third rounders this year haven't gotten on the field.

The position they play matters. The curve for each is not equal.

It 100% matters that Dallas started this OL rebuild a few years ago. My problem is that I think it was pretty clear we needed to do the same thing around the same time and we didn't. Probably for the reason Greg stated. This FO probably started to think they could get by just fine with a unit like the one we fielded in 2011.. and when you win a Super Bowl, it's hard to argue.

in round 1 or 2 this year. It's obvious that the horses just aren't there on the line, and it's equally as obvious that quality OL play is the single biggest obstacle to better offensive production. A high-quality OL allowed the Giants to have an RB tandem that each gained 1000 yards despite neither back being considered as the cream of the position leaguewide. It's much easier for a great OL to make average RBs look good rather than the other way around.

We have to cross our fingers that they can strike lineman gold in the offseason. Not to say that we couldn't use more WR depth or a quality RB, but if you can't open holes or pass protect for more than three seconds skill players can't be used as effectively.

other positions. It all starts up front and works outward.

In comment 11931969 jsboston said:

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Eli had no time at all. I love Beckham, but he was not the right pick.

Eli, never had a hand laid on him - no sacks. Eli, after mid way in the 1st quarter had all day on most plays to throw.

of RR, PP, and ??

In comment 11932209 micky said:

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other positions. It all starts up front and works outward.

Yes, that's how I think it should be. But there appears to be a philosophical difference on that on here.

In comment 11932221 Lurts said:

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of RR, PP, and ??

As was pointed out during draft period, this draft had WRs worthy of starting into the 3rd round. There were plenty of WRs.

But I think it's easier to compensate for skill position weakness with a quality OL than vice-versa. Mediocre RBs behind excellent lines tend to be more productive than excellent backs running behind weak lines.

filled all the holes in our team.

OBJ, Aaron Donald, Martin and CJ Mosley. Problems solved!

The mistake was not drafting OL in rounds 2-3 when excellent prospects were staring them in the face in past, ie, Unger and others I've gotten tired of citing.

You don't toss your philosophy out the window as a kneejerk reaction.

saying "pick Martin" when NYG was on the clock.

he is surrounded by studs.... he would look like a mere mortal playing next to Walton

?

And against the Eagles, pressure came from all across the OL. Everyone sucked. Zack Martin doesn't play all 5 positions on the OL.

OBJ is a dynamic player. Yes, we should have addressed the OL more in early rounds in the recent past, but OBJ is a stud. Not second-guessing that pick.

In comment 11931976 jsboston said:

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but adding a WR doesn't solve the problems. we should have drafting OL until it's fixed. it starts with the OL. guess what, we suck. and we're gonna suck next week too. get used to it.

Doubt we'll suck next week since it's a bye...idiot

but to commit penalties because they can't cover him. I wanted Zack Martin as much as anyone (I'm a ND fan), but I can't complain when the player we have looks really good.

Not the OL necessarily. Try Donnell & TC if you wanna do that. Ridiculous no t/o at the end of the 1st half, imo.

You don't watch a lot of Bills games. He's terrible and starts on a line worse than ours only because of injuries.

The guy they drafted to start in round 2 was Cyrus Kouandjio and he has yet to dress.

this oline is vastly superior to last year's line. Three new players, one a rookie, so they will still screw up, but it is still a vast improvement.

When Jenkins left the game the cowboys had run 9 times for 36 yards and on 5 of the 9 runs they gained 2 yards or less. Not a dominating performance by any stretch of the imagination.

because we took Beckham instead of Martin? I'll leave the histrionics and I told you so's to others. You make your pick and you move on

They are getting blasted for starting Walton here and in other threads. Walton was a very good looking OC before he got hurt. There was a reasonable expectation that he would be a good pickup, as he was deemed healthy. it may not have worked out so far, but it isn't like it was a terrible move to pick him up.

It does start with the Oline! You build from there and everything else falls into place. Tell me did the Eagles have better WR's then the Giants?? No. The Cowboys imo have only 1 WR that's way better then ours in Dez after that what else do they have?? Not much.. So why so are their offense so much more successful?? Oline period. It even helps the defense as well, the longer the offense stays on the field the longer the defense gets rest.

2007-2010 Giants had a top 5 OL... with Snee as the only you could say would have done well anywhere, with any team. The others were products of the system IMO.

Martin has done a very good job, but would he look as good on a bad OL? Probably so, but you cant know for sure.

On the other hand, OBJ without training camp, and no other real threats on offense, continues to play at a high level.

if this guy is all that, the Rams fucked up their pick

thought process.

It's easy to suggest Walton has struggled, Schwartz or insert player here was damaged goods, but the reality in a cap league is a team has to make choices. They can't spend big at 22 positions, so they build a case and make the best decision available to them. Walton (and Schwartz, to an extent) were calculated risks, bargain acquisitions, designed to fill a spot and to fit a puzzle piece into the cap structure.

and still is a waste.

They should have been drafting OL high for the past few years instead of pissing those picks away on useless or vanity selections.

if our sorry ass Oline practices against our sorry ass Dline everyday....how do you get better? can we rent the Dallas Oline for practice during the bye?

was the best pick for the Giants in the last draft. Think after that we will have to wait and see. Especially with Bromley at #74.

he is a good NFL player on a line with two other first round picks.. people are acting like he is the second coming of Larry Allen or something..

one person DOES NOT fix an OL..

In comment 11931881 BlueHurricane said:

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And if we do we basically would have done the same thing Dallas did. We are just one year behind them in the progression. Richburgh is a very good player as well. Pugh has looked like he can play. Add another and the line will no longer be an issue.

I agree mostly. The NYG will need two more starters next year though: one in the first two rounds of the draft, and another in FA.

Lewan is now starting due to injury and so far did not look great.

and I'm more than ok with it. Love what Beckham brings to the table. Imagine the WRs corps without him right now. Doesn't look pretty. Not to mention, Beckham is the prototypical WR for MacAdoo's offense.

That being said, Dallas' OL is impressive and will be a force for the next 5 years.

In comment 11932571 Blue Blood said:

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he is a good NFL player on a line with two other first round picks.. people are acting like he is the second coming of Larry Allen or something.. one person DOES NOT fix an OL..

Correct.."One person does NOT fix a line" But it's a good start, just like it's a good start with Richburgh too

In comment 11932033 dep026 said:

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we drafted OBJ because our WRs were some of the worst in the league. Randle will probably be nothing more than average, Cruz's career is done. OBJ is going to be a very good WR. Lets be happy we have him.

Sorry, did I miss where cruz's career was done?

I wanted martin much more than obj. I threw the remote. But obj isnt looking like a bad pick either.

Honestly, the merits of the OBJ pick are based on richburg IMO.

Cyril Richardson in the third would have been great.

They counted on Snee because after the surgeries he and the doctors said he was good to go

After you sign Schwartz, addressing an issue, you clearly needed a no 1 WR. They are almost exclusively picked in the 1st round

What is funny is that Dallas was very successful running last year. They were just not committed to it. Martin gets a lot of praise but they were successful last year. Their philosophy changed with Romo hurting his back

In comment 11932275 JonC said:

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?

He was on the field a little yesterday. I think he's started 2 of the 7 games and seen some degree of action in them. I'm not sure how he's actually played, though.

Truthfully, I wanted Martin but I have zero issue with having taken Beckham. He's played 3 games a good CB's are already having problems covering him.

next year, its the right type. We need size and we need some toughness. It seems like Coughlin is almost always bemoaning a lack of toughness. I think Richburg is a step in the right direction, but I'd like to see a new LT if we finish poorly enough where one is in reach and another Guard with some size to replace Richburg assuming he moves to center.

Pugh has been bad. I realize he may be dinged, but he has not looked good at all.

In comment 11932082 Chef said:

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could you imagine what this receiving corps would look like?

Specially with Cruz's injury, short term and possibly long term!!

Ah, a good old Zack Martin thread. I heard that after the game, he saved 10 people in a burning house & then cured Ebola. Dude. Is. Amazing.

Beckham is going to be a star & Richburg looks like a good player. We're probably going to draft OL again high this year-fine by me-and our OL will be much improved next season.

In comment 11931969 jsboston said:

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Martin would have been a much better pick. And we absolutely would have a better record. Romo had all day to throw, with nobody around him. Eli had no time at all. If you give a good QB all day to throw, somebody will get open. I love Beckham, but he was not the right pick.

Eli had plenty time against the cowboys. The pass blocking was there. Which is why, they should've stuck with it

you are not going to win if you lose the LoS and can't protect your QB. However go to the stadium and you can count the number of Olineman jerseys past and present and it might equal a 10th of Manning/Cruz Jerseys. Chicks dig the long all and guys identify with the glamour position football players. You will see a ton more number 13 Giants Jerseys sold than number 70 Cowboy Jerseys. You live your lineman but your game changers are the ones that make you jump up and down

moves to center when Schwartz returns? I guess Jerry is the weakest link and it would seem that is where Schwartz should go, but.....he played LG over the summer. Or is Richburg moved to RG?
I would think the least number of moves is best, so Schwartz to RG makes sense.

In comment 11933176 section125 said:

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moves to center when Schwartz returns? I guess Jerry is the weakest link and it would seem that is where Schwartz should go, but.....he played LG over the summer. Or is Richburg moved to RG? I would think the least number of moves is best, so Schwartz to RG makes sense.

I would think Schwartz would play RG and Richburg would stay at LG. Next year, I'd expect Richburg to be at center.