It is looking more and more like Darren Wilson acted as many thought and the shooting was justified. Shots were fired inside the vehicle. Browns blood found in vehicle, on the gun and on Wilsons clothing from the shots. Witness testimony also noted struggle and also contradicts others that his arms were not up. Seems Brown was coming or at least staggering forward from about 25 feet.
This is going pretty much exactly as it appeared and noted from the beginning despite the trolling attempts here and elsewhere to make it something else. Brown attacked the police officer, they struggled , shots were fired, he ran. He turned and faced the officer and did not surrender. The officer did what was his duty and in his defense and really the people of Fergusons defense and shot Brown down.
Now we should get some riots and more ridiculousness. As I noted from the beginning, all this has done is make racists look right and those supporting this case look dumb but they won't acknowledge it so racism wins...congrats....Now we should get some riots and looting in support of a thug who would otherwise be in jail.
Wash Post Link - (
New Window )
Ok, fine. I just said he should be disciplined. Still not sure if I agree that criminal prosecution should be also be applicable...but that's for a convo for another day.
I am pretty sure I would have been shot. It is a policing style. The thinking is it is now so dangerous we must at each and every opportunity protect ourselves first so we act in ways of difference than in the past.
But the stats really don't support that. Stat wise things are about the same or better than ten years ago on Police deaths.
If in Ferguson..i have no doubt the reaction by PD in the same situation would have been the same or considering it is a ghetto area….possibly quite worse.
Do we need in america to hazard being shot for opening a car door…are thing now so bad here….no I say firmly not.
WE need to go back to a time when our depts were not militarized. They need to give back most if not all and get back to training which protects cops but not from dangers which usually do not present.
Yeah it is a high risk job that is why they are paid so well. Make it no risk by training them in these ways….we suffer this result. Safer they are safer we are not.
Exactly what I was thinking. This sounds nothing like the Ron I remember. The posting style is more like Frank in Harrisburg, although the content is not like Frank.
Officers statement not good enough?
Witnesses not good enough?
Forensics not good enough?
Autopsey not good enough?
I am attacked for saying I basically know what happened but that is based on all the items above and common sense, deductive reasoning combined with these items as well.
So if I am the pariah for saying I know...how will you know?
Zoltat(i mean ron) knows all…..
Art where the heck is art…he could settle this debate….
Talk about obsessive…I wonder what M in Syracuse is up to nowadays?
You don't quite remember obsessive I pale buy comparison ;)
I'm sorry because I assumed you meant 'blood splatter' on Wilson when you said earlier:
PA had mentioned that it was obvious that Brown was close to Wilson because of the 'blood splatter' on Wilson's uniform earlier in the thread. So I assumed you were talking about Wilson's uniform as well. If you weren't, my bad. But that's the only time I've seen 'blood splatter' even brought up in this thread so what blood splatter were you talking about?
I think it's hilarious that every one is taking Wilson's testimony that that was what Brown was trying to do as gospel as if he'd never lie to save his own ass... nevermind what Brown was going to do with the gun if he'd gotten a hold of it.
Neither do I and it appears, as I said before, we're all letting our own biases affect who and what we want to believe.
It seems hard to you because I'm not as prepared as you obviously are that the evidence that has been presented so far is 100% accurate because in my mind some things still just don't add up. I can't think of any instance (unless the person is high on PCP or something) where a person would rush a cop pointing a gun at him. Only if he was high on something (which weed wouldn't) or if he had a death wish. As of right now, I haven't heard any evidence that Brown was either. I agree with your last sentence 100% and have said so many times on this thread but because I don't see things the way some of you do it's been ignored.
Zoltat(i mean ron) knows all…..
Art where the heck is art…he could settle this debate….
Talk about obsessive…I wonder what M in Syracuse is up to nowadays?
You don't quite remember obsessive I pale buy comparison ;)
M in Syracuse is probably in a rubber room somewhere. Now there is someone who totally lakes self awareness.
Art is probably somewhere justifying the Spanish Inquisition.
Usually they are so far gone physically their rush is more like a stumble. I don't know of course any of what was going on nevertheless in the PO 's mind but a 300 pound paint sniffer late stage crack head…..that could happen.
Stumble…perhaps he thought he missed and the stumble he may have seen was thinking this is a crack heads stumble. They sort of forget how to walk late stage it seems.
Who know what the PO was thinking? Is there enough to probably support this type of thinking. WE can't really separate the person from the equation…this was a 300 pound big guy. A threat even without a weapon.
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and put in the final shots, then he should be charged. But I don't think the autopsy or testimony supports that.
buford, I may be mistaken and either read what I'd thought I'd read wrong or else the story has changed over the past few weeks (most likely). I found the below linked article using Google and it says he was standing over him after he'd been killed already. It's from about a week ago.
In the article, while talking about how many times Brown was shot I notice that he'd been shot twice in the head. I'd be interested in knowing when those shots occurred? It says he was shot 4 times in the arm and twice in the head. Wilson standing over Brown - ( New Window )
I'm going back to the original autopsies from right after the incident. What the guy said on tv was that either Brown was leaning over to charge the officer or he was staggering with his head down and that's why the shots were in the head. I'm sure thats open for interpretation.
AGain, people seeing what they want. Not even reading the information but then accuse me of beign ridiculous. Is it just that I have actually the items in question? lol
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In comment 11938686 buford said:
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and put in the final shots, then he should be charged. But I don't think the autopsy or testimony supports that.
buford, I may be mistaken and either read what I'd thought I'd read wrong or else the story has changed over the past few weeks (most likely). I found the below linked article using Google and it says he was standing over him after he'd been killed already. It's from about a week ago.
In the article, while talking about how many times Brown was shot I notice that he'd been shot twice in the head. I'd be interested in knowing when those shots occurred? It says he was shot 4 times in the arm and twice in the head. Wilson standing over Brown - ( New Window )
I'm going back to the original autopsies from right after the incident. What the guy said on tv was that either Brown was leaning over to charge the officer or he was staggering with his head down and that's why the shots were in the head. I'm sure thats open for interpretation.
I see. So they were from the top of his head downward (in a sense)? Thanks as I did not know that. From the picture they have in the article it looked like one of the bullets went through his high neck area.
Why do I think he would get on well with Filmgiant?
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would that be justifiable?
Why do I think he would get on well with Filmgiant?
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In comment 11938818 buford said:
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would that be justifiable?
Why do I think he would get on well with Filmgiant?
Same tone but perhaps PA is a little more thoughtful.
I am right, have been right and it has been based on data which all those arguing here don't even friggin read...pretty funny..
Half of the last four or five pages here would be moot if people just read the linked articles....
So a jury could attempt to be in the middle reject murder and take IM or some charge for restriction of civil rights for which he will do time. But who knows I don't know their legal system. Could be he only gets charged with murder in which case he is found innocent by my take, no doubt about it.
A good not political DA I say they charge him with solely IM pr some equilivent in their legal local lexicon.
But that is a personal opinion.
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In comment 11938327 Big Al said:
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In comment 11938304 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 11938286 Big Al said:
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In comment 11938276 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 11938267 Big Al said:
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You have also shown is a total lack of self awareness. Pretty much everyone here sees this.
empty platitudes once again.
Self awareness about what?
The insinuation was made. I think it is asinine. What do I have to be self aware about?
If you were self aware, you would not need to ask that question.
LOL and if you could give me an answer, you would.
Im open to criticism if its valid, if nothing else but in the name of self improvement.
You got nothing though
OK I will give you one example even though I do believe you are open to criticism. A number of well respected sensible posters have said that you were pretty much the same as PA Giants Fan in your posting here. A self aware person would think to himself maybe I have a problem when hearing that. Your lack of self awareness does. not allow you to even consider this possibility. No thought given but a quick response of bs is how people with that characteristic respond.
btw, the fact that I enjoy kickers posts is why I directly asked him how he could equate me with such a stubborn schlub like PA. And of course, I got nothin'. So again, your example is awful. Fuck "looking in the mirror". I directly asked and nobody has anything on grouping me with the jackass who made an "I told you so" thread about a dead 18 year old and a cop whose life is fucked.
Sometimes you need to self examine rather than constantly asking others for examples which you always quickly label as bs.
Sometimes you should stop using self examination as a cop out.
You can't give me an example cause you can't find one.
I get it, you don't like me cause you think I'm anti-cop or support a thug or whatever, but if you're going to call me stubborn and equate me to PA Giants, at least come up with a reason why.
So this lack of self awareness stuff is a stupid way to try and like you're wiser than me, or whatever. It's a vague jab as it is, and you can't even back it up with a specific example.
Again: self aware about what? Cause when I look over what I've contended in this thread (specifically my sentiments about the video of Brown), I see absolutely no area where I've shown a lack of "self awareness".
Until you can give me an example of my lack of self awareness, it's just complete bullshit. But if you give me a valid one, I'll gladly listen. I'm always trying to improve myself.
And the whole "if KickerPA equated you to PA Giants Fan, maybe you should look in the mirror" says nothing and is really just a statement with no content.
You want to talk about lack of self awareness? How about people who don't realize the connotations they create when using the word "thug" in this context, regardless of whether or not they mean to use it as a disparaging term for blacks. That's a lack of self awareness right there.
And no one can answer this question...
How will you know what happenned absent video proof?
Officers statement not good enough?
Witnesses not good enough?
Forensics not good enough?
Autopsy not good enough?
I am attacked for saying I basically know what happened but that is based on all the items above and common sense, deductive reasoning combined with these items as well.
So if I am the pariah for saying I know...how and when will you know?
Thank you for proving my point by calling it bs exactly how I expected you to respond.
Because it's not a specific example. It's you saying "Go to your room and think about what you did cause KickerPA told you you're acting like OP!"
I cited the use of "thug" as a lack of self awareness.
If you want me to analyze my self awareness, here's one for you: I can see how my comments about the video can be construed as trying to marginalize the previous crime Brown committed.
So I get that, sure. But that's not my intention - I'm merely stating my opinion that the fact someone committed a comparatively low level crime such as that robbery isn't enough to draw the conclusion that he was ready to kill the cop, or violent enough to kill the cop.
So there's your self awareness - I get what the perception may be, and that people might think there's some alterior motive. But there isn't, that's just my true thoughts on the matter.
If Brown punched the guy in the face and slammed his head against the counter, I'd be agreeing with the notion that he was reckless enough to actually try and kill a cop.
I know. Bullshit.
I know. Bullshit.
Give me a fucking break dude. You wanted an examination, you wanted an examination of how what I came off said? You got it.
But you can go fuck yourself if you can't even come up with a valid fucking criticism.
NOTHING I stated implies a lack of "self awareness".
What the fuck do you consider self awareness? You want this?
"oh Big Al, you are so right! I am merely nothing but a young adult with much to learn from someone of your experience and many travels through life. I should have known better than to have an opinion regarding what conclusions can be drawn from the videotape in this controversial issue! How dare I! next time, I shall only speak when spoken to! Continue on, kind sir".
Save your fucking condescending garbage, and come back when you have some sort of criticism with content.
I asked you FOUR FUCKING TIMES for a "lack of self awareness" and the best you can come up with is "well you should have had a long, hard look in the mirror cause kickerPA said you're like PA Giants"
That's the best you can come up with? Shove it up your ass, dude.
You come up with an actual way in which I'm self aware, and I'll actually use the advice to improve myself and the way I communicate.
But again, nothing. You're example was shitty and made no sense. I gave you an example of how the use of "thug" is a lack of self awareness when it's used in this context. That's what I consider a lack of self awareness. Not the fact that I didn't have a deep look at a reflecting pool after kicker compared be to the dumbass OP.
See I now control your minds…you fill in the blank automatically. I no longer need to ever even mention that place…you do it for me. So starts my conquest.
Ha Ha Ha …he cackles quite loudly and inanely.
I think maybe Peter in Atlanta, but he's just a bitter asshole to everyone anyway.
Besides, you're the one who tried to chastise me for getting my "news from comedians" when I posted a Jon Oliver segment right?
Maybe you should have some self awareness with how you come off. You should be self aware that by making that ridiculous statement after I posted the segment in an effort to discredit me makes you come off as discrediting those who disagree with you.
so yeah, I'll be waiting for your example that I'm aloof other than "kickerPA was mean to you". Tell me when you come up with something better.
Until then, GFY.
I'm the one who can't get an answer out of you. But whatever, I'm done with you and this dumbass thread.
God, I can't believe how much time I've wasted on this fucking thread.
You still have a problem of not accurately describing what others say. I said a kicker and many others have had problems with your posts. Not just him. If it was only one, it could be shrugged off but it is a number. My reference to kicker alone was in regard to your inability to understand nuance.
You still have a problem of not accurately describing what others say. I said a kicker and many others have had problems with your posts. Not just him. If it was only one, it could be shrugged off but it is a number. My reference to kicker alone was in regard to your inability to understand nuance.
Ok well that is a valid criticism and maybe I inadvertently misrepresent other's arguments when I'm trying to voice my opinions...
But generally I have an implicit understanding that there is no black and white and that things lie within shades of gray.
To give an example, while I feel the video doesn't imply he was ready to kill a cop, I do understand it obviously is relevant with regards to Brown's character/mindset/respect for the law.
Also, this label of aloofness and unwillingness to see others opinions has really been confined to this subject
I am more than willing to admit that I feel there are problems with how the police treat minorities in this country, and that my biases tend to make me skeptical of the official reports of the authorities as a first reaction. I'm openly admitting it.
However, if facts come out that show otherwise, I have no problem admitting I am wrong. And, like I said, I know things operate in shades of gray. In this case, there are probably things both Brown and Wilson could have done to avoid this encounter.
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I have had this discussion with two previous posters who shared you self awareness problem. Matt in Syracuse (football) and Buckyd (politics). Both of them were criticized by many thoughtful posters and asked to consider why so many had problems with them. Neither could do this and always blamed numerous others rather than look with themselves about what the problem might be.
I know. Bullshit.
Give me a fucking break dude. You wanted an examination, you wanted an examination of how what I came off said? You got it.
But you can go fuck yourself if you can't even come up with a valid fucking criticism.
NOTHING I stated implies a lack of "self awareness".
What the fuck do you consider self awareness? You want this?
"oh Big Al, you are so right! I am merely nothing but a young adult with much to learn from someone of your experience and many travels through life. I should have known better than to have an opinion regarding what conclusions can be drawn from the videotape in this controversial issue! How dare I! next time, I shall only speak when spoken to! Continue on, kind sir".
Save your fucking condescending garbage, and come back when you have some sort of criticism with content.
I asked you FOUR FUCKING TIMES for a "lack of self awareness" and the best you can come up with is "well you should have had a long, hard look in the mirror cause kickerPA said you're like PA Giants"
That's the best you can come up with? Shove it up your ass, dude.
You come up with an actual way in which I'm self aware, and I'll actually use the advice to improve myself and the way I communicate.
But again, nothing. You're example was shitty and made no sense. I gave you an example of how the use of "thug" is a lack of self awareness when it's used in this context. That's what I consider a lack of self awareness. Not the fact that I didn't have a deep look at a reflecting pool after kicker compared be to the dumbass OP.
No communication style problems to fix here...
Okay, I get that.
A lot of times I find myself really arguing against a concept or notion as opposed to what an individual poster said.
I also get set off too easily by dumbass one liner jabs... like pork and beans up above.
Whatever, if people can't get past the fact that my posts read as abrasive, that's their prerogative. One thing I will maintain is that I at least have an opinion and substance in my posts and come up with coherent arguments that I try to back up.
not this one here. I've already changed my opinion on what happened based on the information that has been released.
not that my opinion really matters anyway. I always thought the larger, more macro level issues with law enforcement oversight and interaction with minorities was the the topic that should have be in the forefront of any discussions to this case.
Not how fast a fat teenager can run 25 feet.
Those with agendas try to minimize the threat. the issue. the evidence....
I havent changed my position because I have been correct. I have also seen this clearly from the beginning. Many here continue to see this how they want without evidence or data
This from the socialist workers web site…
The denial of police violence against white workers and youth is aimed at separating police repression and violence from its fundamental class character by elevating race as the primary factor in society. This actually promotes racism by sowing divisions within the working class. The proponents of identity politics then attempt to channel the justifiable anger and frustration felt by masses of people back into the safe confines of the Democratic Party and the defense of the capitalistic system.
In contrast to this reactionary ideology, socialists have never denied or ignored the existence of racism. However, we maintain that the struggle against racism and all forms of oppression must be based on the fight to unite all workers, on the basis of their common class interests, against the capitalist system.
To do otherwise serves to obscure the more fundamental source of oppression of workers and youth of all races, colors, ethnicities, etc.—the exploitation of the working class—and the real driving force of history—the class struggle.
Point being race is not universally considered the issue in Ferguson. Earlier on it describes that while there are certainly a disproportionate number of minorities killed each year statistically every year it is white not black that have more killed. The claim of race is depicted to their view as a means by the corporation the media to claim the issue of this thing always to one of race.
I support that view here in part with my comments.
Just for your consideration. Some do not know of another side being present in this thing that is not the American left or right on this but a global left on this opinion.
Just wondering.
Oh, and by the way, it really doesn't matter whether you believe you are correct or not, because no one who has every stopped by on this thread has any respect for you or your views.
It gets back to the question I asked the other day: what do you think you are accomplishing? Stating repeatedly that you know that you are correct doesn't have any affect on anyone, so why bother? What kind of victory does that achieve?
How will you know what happened absent video proof?
Officers statement not good enough?
Witnesses not good enough?
Forensics not good enough?
Autopsy not good enough?
I am attacked for saying I basically know what happened but that is based on all the items above and common sense, deductive reasoning combined with these items as well.
So if I am the pariah for saying I know...how and when will you know? What is the threshold when opinion becomes fact?
You haven't answered my question as to what you think you are accomplishing, btw. Spending hours and hours on this crap ought to be linked to some sort of goal, I would think.
This case has been obvious from the beginning really because the assumptions you had to make were beyond reasonable. People here willfully ignore the evidence, make up evidence as they go along to support the violent offender over the police officer. The community is rioting, protesting, looting....and ultimately in my view it is the responsibility of the larger collective to be smarter. Maybe if people didn't do all these things I note, there wouldnt be riots and there wouldnt likely be more when the obvious verdict is handed down. Instead people cling to the shreds of a chance they might be right because it justifies the riots and protestors and assuages their guilt...but the clock and data is running out on that.
So for all those saying I am a fool and I don't "know" anything are those that refuse to read the links and analyze the data at hand.
But is that a valid thing or thought bearing of more weight as it is the prevailing opinion….I say no. Things like that trends of philosophy they come and go in time often being completely eradicated at times some ways of thinking.
Is this uncertainty what leads to a moral degradation ….that is my take.
I don't claim a forceful opinion on this personally nor to I claim that I know on this for sure….I do support PA's ability to say he knows quite definitively that.
It is not a common view to state one does actually know a thing such as this…but one may certainly express that view. To consider one as a pariah for expressing view that is firm resolute and reflective of them knowing a thing….no to my opinion such a way of thinking it helps society not harms…generally.
Would people feel better if I said I was 90% sure? People are rioting and protesting...Are they 90% sure? Are they 100% sure? Enough to riot and protest and put their issues on the line of the repercussions of being wrong?
And is saying I am sure rendering opinion or am I saying it is a fact? Or is fact something only represented to oneself? The world was flat and round and both facts to some people.
Not standing on firm ground considered, one can do none of those things. So in the fashion no firm ground never held, one cannot be found to be doing any of those things that in this context are as well firmly held opinions on things.
Point being succinctly….how can any of us change opinions if none of us ever really hold them…..we cannot. The outcome of this world of no held opinions other than of the personal….all remain firmly entrenched in their opinions as they never really in their minds hold them.So how can they change them…they cannot.
Better we be found in our strong opinions held or firm ground standing to be wrong than that….that is nothing is that. That is a bad way to be. American society with its loss of moral bearing to my opinion reflectes directly that.
Or simply put..Bob Dylan he was and is wrong.
Truth in most things can be found and it is not as we seem to be being told a thing which changes as the wind. The wind some objects to have that nature mostly they do not. The truth it is a real thing which with dedication and effort we may likely find.
Thinking we may never find it….it for us is never possible.