NFT: Ferguson - Michael Brown - The latest

I agree with your last statement 100% and am probably in a way that is hard to read and understand versing it(as I tend to communicate in that manner), as I see it, and as I interpret what you have said. Some have called be a blowhard and they are in part right in that a old kook as well.

You are right as I see it in this and in the way you have defended it. I differ a bit but agree.

I am of socialist opinion overall, and certainly you don't agree with many of my views and rationals but on this we do agree.

Is that people don't like me because I believe something as a fact and believe the data is conclusive. Is that a reason to bash and insult someone repeatedly? Because you believe they state opinion as a fact?

Or is that I went straight at the loud BBI collective to rub their face in it after previous attacks.

The hypocrisy shines through for the collective but they don't see it. I treat people how they treat me. You insult, I insult back. You treat me fairly, I treat you fairly back. Funny how that gets lost in this....Again...message board lord of the flies at work here....Except it is not life or death...And I am not personally vested here. I never was the most popular kid, have to sell yourself out usually for that...Many here have done so.

seeing a socialist supports you, even though you and I are at the opposite ends of the spectrum politically…..you may well be damned by association.

I certainly now paint a target firmly on my back, but I do not care and likely will not be here long….You are slandered by having me support you. Quite slandered. It should not be as peoples think but it is quite what they think and how they think.

So no matter you are right in tho,s have presented it adamantly and likely have changed some minds on this even though many read and don't post.We will never know that.
So kudos to you I say job well done. I wish I had the energy and time for such things but I do not.

Yeah. Not a socialist. Don't ascribe to any group well. Have never voted Republican in any election I can think of either. Pretty much democrat. Can be fiscally conservative at times on certain things. People made a lot of assumptions about me here and most have been wrong...simply because I took the side of the police officer. Guess that is pretty telling too and worth some thought...

And even though I stated numerous times I generally do not side with the police. Also called a racist numerous times, a couple times by the supposed most erudite amongst the posters here. Also far from the truth.

Thanks for your words.

I last posted here for a day or two four years ago(I now checked)..I swear some people are still following me around looking for things in what I write or feel from 4 years ago or before that from 6 or more years ago. I started in the late 90's here.

So it is a bit silly some things like that. I posed Democrat for a lot of years as I was a local official in the democrat party, and this area was unrepresented. But my heart was never in it. My area was reapportioned so I lost my position….so now I can say firmly openly I am socialist(not communist) in orientation. For years I could not do that. But this will limit my stay here considerably despite my seeing very many old friends I certainly like conversing with on things.

It is simply as things and people are in the current world and place when ideas are more important than peoples.

BBI does not permit socialists. I believe that you are the only one here.

in season, in this newer environment of lower traffic on internet sites…all this since the 20th..

you could PA have been saying any thing at all. To participate in that amount of comments pretty much always on top of it…..

that is quite amazing to me. Content totally abstract from that. I agree and all that but that in itself is amazing.

The traffic itself, I will not belabor the point , infers you have quite a high standing and your opinion is highly valued despite the statements to the contrary. That happens in these things of discussion.

Reasoning.

here :). Publicly at least. Though I am no great example of one nor a good communicator on their ideals at all. I suck at both.

You came out as a socialist. Wish at least one gay poster would come out. There must be some based on the numbers here. Where is our Michael Sam?

though as Seinfeld said..there is nothing wrong with that ;)

viewpoint. It also seems that this has a bit of the Duke LaCrosse team case but with a dead body. The disturbing part is that the media trumped this up so much it has destroyed even a miniscule amount of normalcy in Ferguson and it will go on to be a super shithole in the future. Great job as usual media! You're the best!

Are you aware that there are some issues here that the media didn't create? I can think of three of four major ones.

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In comment 11939760 PA Giant Fan said:

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Stay a shithead.

In comment 11932305 David in LA said:

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the word has a very specific attachment to black people. Have you ever seen James Eagan Holmes or Timothy McVeigh described in the same manner? Don't try to play fucking dumb here.

Since when does it have a very specific attachement to black people?Cite sources please or GTFO. Are you saying black people are thugs? because if so, that's racist, dude.Don't see how you come to that conclusion.

In comment 11932311 David in LA said:

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because you let tacit racists slide with this shit.

Like you, you mean?

In comment 11932403 x meadowlander said:

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...ain't just about Mike Brown. Regardless of the verdict, that fire isn't going out.

That's because they are criminals, and that's what criminals do, riot and loot.They are criminals by definition. Rioting is a crime, period.They want to destroy their own neighborhoods, loot and vandalize their own merchants, over an incident that started with some thug robbing a local merchant and then assaulting the police, anyway you cut it that's what started this and that's who they are supporting, a criminal.Doesnt say much about the people in ferguson far as I'm concerned.

If they don't want the rule of law enforced on them, fine,
just keep rioting, they'll get wghat they want, after they have finished trashing the local business community and vandalized the infrastructure,
lets see them drum up any kind of money from the local tax base. Bottom line is there isn't gonna be shit for money for law enforcement there in 5 years, the locals don't want it, they want the police out and they are more than likely going to get what they want.Myself I don't see how it works out for them, and i think they are in for a rude awakening if they want to burn their own house down, then ask their neighbor to build them a new one.They can come to the state of Missouri with their hand out, but Missouri has empty pockets as it is.


Michael brown is another Tawana brawley far as i'm concerned, an Issue for politicians to exploit, and an opportunity for thugs to loot and riot.Had another Kid been shot that day, Michael brown would more than happily have gone to a local convenience store, looted it, laughed his ass off all night with his friends and not given the dead kid a second thought.To pretend this is over Michael brown is nonsense, you are right.

Sure this isn't going to do end with Michael brown.The people of ferguson are who they are, and they have no desire to change that. They apparently want no law enforcement at all.Criminal elements usually don't.Then they can riot all they want in peace by their lonesomes.

I was wondering when Great white racist would show up...

My post had nothing to do with race, nor was there any mention of it whatsoever, nor any allusions to it, but you go on with your own bad self. Seems you're the bigot here, projecting your own issues.

Oh, and you can tell I'm a racist because I started a thread about police brutality when 2 cops killed a black kid in walmart and I said the cops were wrong, but hey, you keep on keepin on, fellah.You have a really swell day.

seem to have short memories on things.

Speaking of which…remember early on in Ferguson when the peoples were legally demonstrating and the police adapted riot gear military gear and tank like vehicles and did indiscriminately arrest bunches of people which probably only came to the publics eyes when 2 national media staffers were arrested in a McD for the crime I guess of being in the McD, and being on their lap tops at the time. State representatives for the area, arrested for the crime of being peaceably present in a demonstration…we cannot act as these things did not in the first few days actually happen. The local police were taken out of management of the area not for no reason but because they royally screwed it up, about every part of it.

So you restrict rights to assemble and demonstrated legally and the response gets illegal. And illegal, like as not it gets violent and turns into a riot.
Then with time outside peoples come in and agitate and this becomes sort of self sustaining.

REally early on if they had the community to legally demonstrate and work to make their voices heard probably this particular ball would not have started rolling. Once started it develops its own momentum and is very hard to stop.

No Dylan reference in last paragraph. Perfect opportunity for another from you?

May the Ferguson community adhere to not one but two peaceful slogans

"Hands Up. Don't Shoot."

"Pants Up. Don't Loot."

Both are absolutely important.

after all these years I finally have to admit I don't agree with the guy ;).
Sad as he was a hero to that generation of a sort for quite a while, civil rights and all…but no I admire many of the things he did but disagree with his ideology.

but last real good song I heard him compose and sing was…tangled up in blue which was how many years ago?

REally Ferguson I am serious in saying the riots were half a consequence of the way the police acted in those first things which were really demonstrations. Community mad as hell and they tried to instal a curfew….it was just stupid police work and decisions. Let them blow off steam demonstrate yell march eventually it would have petered out. Trying to overtly stop it caused it to radicalize. All demonstrators became in the eyes of the law rioters as they disobeyed police. Then when allowed the agitators had already stepped in. A bunch of anarchists and such do exist that are just waiting for things like that to happen and will go there when they do.

Ferguson…those people had a subpar police dept for years and years. No doubt about that.

That the police chief did sound like a bumbling idiot.

a rancher not that long ago refused to pay grazing fees out here in the west. A whole bunch of outside peoples descended on the area. My ex's family were all ranchers many people where I live 10 miles from here people I know and have hung out with at times are all ranchers.

I could see clearly all those with the exception of Bundy himself and his family they were all outsiders just waiting for something to happen.

Same in Ferguson as I see it. More locals as I mention even the legal became outside of the law…. but many agitators as well.

The protests were not all peaceful in the beginning. The media did not report on many of the initial riots...but I've read first person accounts of the early days where police (not in riot gear) had bricks, bottles and bottles of urine thrown at them. The ones not in riot gear were specifically targeted.

but when they tried to put on the heavy hand, as a day or so later when they had arrested those journalists the state senator then it got a whole lot worse.

If they had not put the state police in charge I really think it would have evolved into running street battles and a full scale riot. Things like that gradually worsened but I take it as the media the publicity brought in those intending to do harm which likely were not in majority Ferguson people.

I read it that way. The other poster above I read his statements as the peoples of Ferguson as just being a bad lot. I don't agree with that.

Some of course are as in all places. I think the majority were being treated badly and this was the straw the broke the camels back. Really stat wise Ferguson had not had that many DBPO. This was only a final thing in a list of grievances. I don't doubt those grievances were real ones. I mention the racial disparity of the police force as that is most obvious but it appears they were running a stop and harass type of place. like I mention…a militarized police force. I mean arresting a state senator….something is wrong there.

You mention really tried and succeeded in making themselves part of the story as well. I read a story from a photographer in Ferguson who left because he was ashamed of the media including himself. He said police told journalists to separate themselves and journalists would stay in groups with "protesters" and would refuse to move when ordered to because people were throwing things at police...then they'd get on Twitter or the Huffington post or cnn and cry about getting pepper spray or gas in their eyes...

I don't think the police are above criticism and some things were done wrong by police but I think the blame can be passed around to about everyone including journalists, senators (nasheed) and protesters.

About nasheed? She was arrested, carrying a gun and apparently wreaked of alcohol. She's not above being arrested...she apparently stood in traffic when ordered to move because she wanted to be arrested.

As for your militarized police bs...what do the police have that they didn't need? Armored vehicles? Yeah those have saved lives across the country and are not a threat to the public in any way. ARs ? Anyone can buy an AR

i forget his name. Could look it up I guess. The police plainly tear gassed the Al Jazeera TV group which clearly was media and were not in the way of anything…I saw that video. And the two in the McD restaurant were both national media and their reporting on the incident seemed to be truthful and responsible.

The equipment leads to a attitude of military as in they are them and we are us. So the acquiring of some equipment is perhaps handy for a dept to have but it leads to a atmosphere of military. Which is not what you want your PD to have. Military even the military has PO's it is a different thing than the military.
And how often do depts use that stuff…about never. Very rarely is it used in swat…it just is not practical.
Large large cities could justify it others they never use it.

You want to hold your opinion and call all I say BS….feel free but I don't think you will be accomplishing much.
I am familiar with this as it is a issue and clearly one present in America. The question is not that it is but do we want to go that way?
You say yes, I guess you do but to say it is BS and doesn't exist….I mean just look around. They didn't used to have these type vehicles and equipment and depts did have different training methodologies.

Did policing get a real more dangerous since 2000 or is it a response to some other threat? I take it as that. Really we are about the same DOPO as it has been in the past. A bit up or down year by year but really nothing justifies all this stuff.

armored Humvees. They don't need them most not a bit. Large large cities,NY LA Chicago I could see that. Others no.

but you extrapolate a lot from a little, and draw some very definitive conclusions from possibilities where evidence can point in different directions and the answers seem less than clear.

that's fine nothing wrong with that. A lot of nations have them.

To say we are not going in that direction with equipment and training…I don't see that as a defendable point. Its obvious we are. I know from discussions of the training others know by just looking around at the equipment changes in the last 15 years.

Does the threat really justify that move, is there a new larger threat…perhaps you think there is and that is defendable and debatable.

I think it is wrong to have one and will cause as many problems as it serves and Ferguson shows that a bit. But that is only my opinion.
Again to say it is not and has not happened….I don't know what to say as it obviously has.

The question for debate as I read it is should we or should we not. Good arguments can be made on both sides.

did they take pout automatic or semi automatic weapons rifles and appear ready to use them. NO Chicago which I would guess the left took to be the worst the riots subsequent to the convention years ago…..they beat the F*&^ out of people with billy clubs for the most part. A bad thing if you were hit but not a lethal thing most of the time. The only killing really was in Kent State by the military when they were called in.

This is not to rehash the 60's but look at it…cops would beat the F out of you with clubs but not be carrying weapons of the sort they are now.
Which was better…by my take…..I'd take clubs any day and time.

Did mass shootings actually occur in Ferguson no. But I could see that if things were let to continue with their Police in charge I could see that happening.
Years ago no that would never happen. Hoses clubs those sort of things were used and threatened, not these type things.
Things have changed some would say for the better more modern and efficient I say not. But each is entitled to their opinion neither is BS.

in that same time period Mexico used their police as military and supplemented with military. A riot in Mexico city….they shot hundreds dead while here our worse was like a couple killed. We had police responses to riots largely not military type responses. Military were called in when things got out of hand but that was rare and only in the worst situations. The big big riots. Most were cleared by police. And handled really pretty tamely as result. A thing like Ferguson…nah that would be not a big deal, no military for that.
But it is a choice to make we have to make. Clearly it is going that way…do we want it?

and I think perception matters an awful lot. A guy can wear a bulletproof vest and pack comparable firepower in his trunk without looking like he just stepped off the plane from Afghanistan.

But if your point was that only major US cities should have Humvees or comparable vehicles, a reasonable point perhaps, why wouldn't St. Louis qualify?

was killed when a rubber bullet (or something like that) hit her in the eye after the Red Sox won the World Series in 2004 from a police fired round.

I am not military or police, but I imagine training for riot response and active combat are some of the hardest things to simulate and get the responders prepared.

it's not like there are a lot of experienced riot responders in Boston (or Ferguson). I'm not taking sides or excusing, just offering up an example that removes race, removes motive, and hate, and just shows the human side of these kinds of events even if for very different reasons.

look this stuff up I know there is so much out there on it..


But this from the WSJ..just one article of a thousand or so out there….

Sen. Claire McCaskill (D., Mo.) singled out a one-man police department in Michigan that she said had received 13 assault weapons. Sen. Rand Paul (R., Ky.) criticized the 14,000 bayonets the Pentagon distributed to local law enforcement across the country for reasons he said he couldn't fathom.

"Giving military-grade weapons to every police force and every officer comes with costs," Ms. McCaskill said. "Officers dressed in military fatigues will not be viewed as partners in any community."

Billions of dollars of excess military equipment and funding to buy other gear has flown to local police departments over the past two decades. At first, Congress approved such programs as a way to help departments outgunned by drug gangs. After the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the flow increased as lawmakers spent more money to help police prevent terrorism."

Bayonetts ?? I didn't really scratch the surface on this thing.. I bet with a look see I could find about a thousand things which are absurd.

The problem is not so much in the equipment but the message it sends. Even the color of a police car is chosen for reasons of the psychological, one color means things unconsciously to us another doesn't. Not to mention the effect on your local dept perception if it is issued bayonets…..??? Suppose that becomes known of.

as well fire hoses some by tear gas, it happens.
But those are police things..bayonets military no doubt about it.
I'm going to peruse this stuff to see how absurd it has gotten just for fun……

I'm not having to look very far nor deep to see which way it has gone. The training as I mentioned it is the same..it is leaning military. I could look up the models and all that the same as the equipment though it would be a bit more difficult.

Do we want that …I don't but maybe you do. That you do is not BS it can be argued for and is a valid position. not one I agree with but it is as valid as mine. I know that.

they're talking about. If it's just an AR-15 with no full auto or even three-round burst it differs little if at all from the shit the average gun enthusiast has locked in his safe. Perception matters (which is why wearing BDUs is, generally speaking, dumb) but if you think police - and citizens - shouldn't have AR-15s because they are uniquely powerful, you probably should stop talking about firearms.

In comment 11941416 ron in new mexico said:

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look this stuff up I know there is so much out there on it.. But this from the WSJ..just one article of a thousand or so out there…. Sen. Claire McCaskill (D., Mo.) singled out a one-man police department in Michigan that she said had received 13 assault weapons. Sen. Rand Paul (R., Ky.) criticized the 14,000 bayonets the Pentagon distributed to local law enforcement across the country for reasons he said he couldn't fathom. "Giving military-grade weapons to every police force and every officer comes with costs," Ms. McCaskill said. "Officers dressed in military fatigues will not be viewed as partners in any community." Billions of dollars of excess military equipment and funding to buy other gear has flown to local police departments over the past two decades. At first, Congress approved such programs as a way to help departments outgunned by drug gangs. After the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the flow increased as lawmakers spent more money to help police prevent terrorism." Bayonetts ?? I didn't really scratch the surface on this thing.. I bet with a look see I could find about a thousand things which are absurd. The problem is not so much in the equipment but the message it sends. Even the color of a police car is chosen for reasons of the psychological, one color means things unconsciously to us another doesn't. Not to mention the effect on your local dept perception if it is issued bayonets…..??? Suppose that becomes known of.

WTF is an "Assault Weapon?" It's a BS made up term. Anyone in the United States can buy the same "Assault weapons" given to these small town police departments.

Bayonets...I'm not sure why anyone has them but it's quite possible departments use them for honor guards or something. Other than that I'd say they are useless and shouldn't have been given out. With that said, any stories of police departments killing people with bayonets? Or even using them?

What are these military grade weapons? They're no different than anything anyone in the US can buy on their own. If they got the money, they can buy an armored truck, an AR, ...

Military fatigues? Police departments use them for special units (swat teams) because they're cheaper and easy to replace. Many rural areas they come in handy too. Pretty stupid to complain about since your average police officer isn't wearing them out on patrol.

Here is another quote from financial times I think it was….

Related: The Pentagon Equipped Ferguson’s Police Dept.

Since Congress first approved the 1033 program in 1990, local police have received more than $5.1 billion in military-grade property – from surplus desks to Mine Resistant Ambush P (MRAPS), M-16s, and Kevlar body armor. In 2013 alone, more than $449 million in military equipment was transferred; the Department of Homeland Security, the Justice Department and FEMA paid for it through grants appropriated by Congress.

Although DOD officials say Ferguson police did not use any of its military-grade tactical equipment (which is still under review in a separate federal investigation), the war zone-like images that came out of Ferguson sparked new concerns.

“There is no role for the federal government in state and local police forces in our country,” Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) said Tuesday. The longtime deficit hawk pointed out that a tiny police department in his home state had received two MRAPs from the Pentagon though it only has one full time police officer.

- See more at: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2014/09/10/40-Percent-Used-Military-Equipment-Given-Police-Brand-New#sthash.lLYhE1VE.dpuf

Tom Coburn is about the most conservative senator to be found anywhere…
He sees it as a waste of money, which it is to my opinion.
But yeah we can by the reaches of our imagination justify a lot of this….mostly I don't think so but you may and do I guess.
So we differ.

it's usually low cost or no cost to the local jurisdiction and would have been mothballed or scrapped by the military, likely costing the military as much or more than simply getting it off books. There are plenty of good reasons to dislike this and I've detailed many of them on previous threads, but cost isn't it.

but I don't want to contribute any further in hi jacking this thread. It's not about police militarization. I can see you've made your mind up anyways. I'm afraid I'll just have to disagree with you Ron.

It's odd that these things are brought up now because of Ferguson though. In a year where police officers are being murdered almost every day. Police deaths by gunfire have increased 52% so far this year (38 police officers have been murdered by guns, 7 by vehicular assault and 1 by assault).

as it turns out 40% is brand new never used equipment. Which if you are a deficit hawk like he is paints a unpretty picture.

Here from a trade magazine is a quote from 2013 before all this stuff happened in Ferguson. But I am not making this stuff up or pulling it out of my A.
This mag is directed at career officers….
Here is the quote I included it as it references training in the context I mentioned it. Keep in mind this is 2013 way before Ferguson….

Stress training in police academies, and its warrior-like orientation that tends to create an “us versus them” mind set in rookie officers, has the potential of creating barriers between the police and the community. Even when community policing is part of a stress academy curriculum, it has been shown that the stress training creates obstacles to the kind of police-citizen relationships necessary to operationalize community policing.6

Police chiefs and sheriffs may want to ask themselves—if after hiring officers in the spirit of adventure, who have been exposed to action oriented police dramas since their youth, and sending them to an academy patterned after a military boot camp, then dressing them in black battle dress uniforms and turning them loose in a subculture steeped in an “us versus them” outlook toward those they serve and protect, while prosecuting the war on crime, war on drugs, and now a war on terrorism—is there any realistic hope of institutionalizing community policing as an operational philosophy?

Karl Bickel
Senior Policy Analyst
The COPS Office

policy analyst for the DOJ community oriented police service(cops for short) I think he is running for a elected position of sheriff in Maryland somewhere about now…

Here is another excerpt from another article earlier in 2013.
He talks about the model which is what I have been talking about the different training models…..

…"Police recruit training is generally found to be based on one of two models—stress or non-stress——with a range of variants drawing from both models. Stress training is modeled after a military boot camp, characterized by paramilitary drills, daily inspections, intense physical demands, public discipline, withholding privileges, and immediate reaction to infractions. Non-stress recruit training is associated with a more relaxed academic or collegiate atmosphere, characterized by emphasis on academic achievement, a relaxed instructor/trainee relationship, and administrative disciplinary procedures.1

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Report on State and Local Law Enforcement Training Academies (BJS Report), the majority of police recruits receive their training in academies with a stress-based military orientation. 2 This begs the question; is this military model—designed to prepare young recruits for combat—the appropriate mechanism for teaching our police trainees how to garner community trust and partner with citizens to solve crime and public order problems? …

We are trending military in equipment and in training.Do we want that? That is the question not is it occurring. He is the expert so to speak in the field.

and their are multiple articles in the same vein on the cops site,