into coverage in the 1st quarter on a 3rd and 6 also. I just don't see the purpose of dropping a DL into coverage. I think it was the same play they pulled Hankins out and Aikman commented that Hankins led the team in sacks...
I noticed the same thing on escobar pass...I'm watching #99 backing into coverage and saying to myself this is not going to end well and why does this coach continue to do this crap?!?!
Antonio Pierce said that was Beason's coverage, but if you watch the play Hosley covers no one and I don't think he even moves 4 feet from where he lined up and Rolle just yells and gestures at Beason instead of picking up Escobar.
The only time Fewell blitzed was on obvious run downs. It was obvious the front 4 wasn't getting pressure, so as opposed to supporting a beat up secondary on pass downs, he drops lineman and shitty coverage linebackers into coverage. How is that not being called out by Coughlin? When they self scout, this needs to be glaring.
there was zero talent, but this team has talent enough to compete on defense. The new emphasis on the secondary, forcing the QB into pressure situations through coverage instead of a bull rush is impossible to achieve when they use the same old playbook that yielded two of the worst seasons in recent history. The team is built to compete in the new, more offensive minded NFL but the defense they're showing isn't utilizing the talent. They offer up ten+ yard coverage cushions in short yardage situations and they drop 300lb run stoppers/pass rushers into coverage against TEs.
It's painful to watch.
RE: Fewell's MO is to drop as many in coverage as possible
when we're undermanned. I think its coaching scared and just about the WORST way to defend Romo.
I think Perry is a good DC with flaws... but his flaws are VERY annoying.
We don't have guys to cover the likes of Witten, Escobar, or Bryant right now. Yeah it is a weak or soft strategy but on the few blitzes called I think we can all see why Fewell often calls it that way. If I am Romo, anytime I even think there is a possibility of a blitz I am throwing it to Bryant or Witten as soon as possible.
No, Hosley really sucks. Reese has to be the only one surprised by it.
Here is an excerpt from the Bleacher Report review of Hosley. Full link attached also:
"Hosley has good cover skills and instincts but is awful in terms of open field tackling. He needs to work on that to crack the starting lineup for the Giants. One thing that could have provoked this pick for Jerry Reese is Hosley returned punts and played special teams at Virginia Tech.
Hosley does have a lot of upside, but I cannot fathom how Reese passed on Bobby Massie. Obviously he knows what he's doing, but don't the Giants have enough corners?
Corey Webster, Terrell Thomas, Prince Amukamara, Antwaun Molden, Bruce Johnson, Michael Coe, Justin Tryon and now Hosley are all corners on the Giants' roster. The top four seemed to be enough for what Perry Fewell wants to do.
The right tackle position is far from as certain. At this point we have no idea who the offensive line starters will be. This could turn out to be a great pick, but I do not like who we passed up" Bleacher Report Giants Round 3 2012 - ( New Window )
going on more than two years. For the most part, he is content rushing just 4, as if he has it stuck in his head this is still a DL with Osi and Tuck anchoring it. Then, he takes it further and loves to drop DL in coverage. it's usually a DE, which isn't the worst if you do it once in a while. But, he does it with regularity and now adds DTs to the mix. His blitzes rarely hit home from lack of timing and design. His stunts rarely hit home. His DEs crash hard down the line often, leaving the edge exposed to quick tosses and cutbacks. His schemes generate no pressure, which combined with a soft zone allows a decent QB the time to sit there and wait for a WR or TE to find a spot in the zone to just sit in uncontested. He rarely presses at the LOS. Their secondary consistently has miscommunications leading to big gains for years, regardless of the personnel. Really, what is redeeming about his body of work? Even in 2011, they were a bad defense who decided to get some pressure down the stretch.
Why would Prince tell CHANDLER MOTHERFUCKIN' FENNER to take Dez while he took COLE FUCKIN' Beasley? Why are the Giants constantly allowing massive mismatches when the opponent's star WR lines up in the slot? Why aren't they double teaming the opponent's best WR? Why don't guys know who they're supposed to cover on plays? Why is Quentin Demps playing so much?
Been calling for his head for two years. He's obviously an idiot.
What I don't understand is why TC and the front office haven't come to this glaringly obvious conclusion. Seriously, when you look at Fewell time with the Giants, what is his signature on the defense? Turnovers? I don't think so. Is it disguising exotic blitzes? Tight man coverage? Smash mouth bad ass bruising hits? No, none of these things describes Fewell's defense. Fewell defenses have always had one trait - they fail to come up with the big when they need a big play. Not to say they've never gotten a big play - they've had a few - but the defense can't get off the field when they must get off the field.
Someone not covering someone, in a Fewell defense?
up to blitz. Go with 3 DT's and one rush end with the hand down (JPP) and stand Ayers, Kiwi and Moore up in the LB spots with a blitz. There is enough speed, height and pass rush ability there to get home or at minimum disrupt what's going on. It's the consistent, conventional cover 2 scheme he won't change up that's killing this team.
Who drops DL into coverage does not belong in this league. Period. Fewell is horrible, plain & simple.
Venting over... FK!
Agreed, especially on a 3rd and long. We get jailbreaks thrown at us on 3rd downs but when we have a team in 3rd down we rush 3 and drop d-linemen into coverage. Doesn't make a lick of fucking sense.
Every team drops linemen into short coverage from time to time to confuse the qb, confuse the protection, put a big body in short throwing lanes. Sometimes it is done in combo with blitzes sometimes not but every team utilizes it and Dallas did yesterday also.
The issue was having Fenner on Bryant. We couldn't cover Bryant with the Prince, the PS player had no hope, and Romo went right after him. I doubt that having Fenner cover Bryant was by design.
Just awful. How can the Giants win when the defense can't get off the field?
They can't, hence the reason they're 3-4 and staring at a 7-9 season.
The Cowboys were a good offense last year and are even better than last year. They have Witten, Escobar, Williams, Bryant and Murray with Romo throwing the ball. Did you think they were going 1-14 on third down?
around here when a statement saying any DC dropping lineman in coverage does not belong in the league. That would be every goddam DC, in league. you can't blitz Romo or pressure him when you have proven that you have linebackers that cant cover the TE and your best corner cannot cover their best receiver 1 on 1. The cowboys would of scored 2 more touch downs without the zones, you guys are complaining about.
on Dez Bryant? lol. I mean come on now. If I am the Dallas coaches upstairs I am laughing. Some slapdick player just signed on my X who is a beast? I have zero faith in that defense. Hosley having a miscommunication. Thank god for a bye week. But I am not looking forward to seeing Andrew Luck against our defense.
On that play where Romo quickly passed to Bryant on his left who was one on one with Prince, and Giants got burned there so it seems whether or not they blitz, there is trouble. Witten wide open at times.
I don't understand why when DEs are rushing the passer that they don't put their hands up at least disrupt the QBs vision a little.
It was an especially bad Defensive call given that
You know that, Eric. It's not something unique to Fewell.
I don't much see the point of it, but.. again. This isn't something that only the Giants do.. though most people here seem to think that.
And again. On the Fenner play, he was lineup in the slot and we were in man coverage. They motioned and Dez wound up in front of him and that's who he wound up having to cover. We weren't shadowing Bryant with Fenner.
And did it really matter anyway? Dez was beating Prince like a drum.
And no shit Quintin Demps sucks. Who are we replacing him with? We have one good safety.
It matters because Fenner sucks. Prince had good coverage except the onehr ggot burned. Those slants were as good coverage be careful. get. Excellent pass by Romo and amazing that Dez held on.
Fenner was in the slot, that was where Dez lined up. We were not shadowing Dez with Prince.
Prince was also beaten on an under thrown ball (the one he recovered in time to get a hand on).. that also should have been a TD. He wasn't stopping anything to Dez one on one. Romo was going to him every time he was singled up.
Here's Chris Clemons (DE) dropping into the flat to cover a WR..
Here's Avril dropping into zone coverage..
Here's the NT, McDonald dropping into a zone in the short flats and picking up Jimmy Graham. (If Fewell did this, people would be calling for his firing as per usual)
(Notice in the last gif, the 3 man rush still gets to Brees)
Fenner is the bitch on that play . So they need to follow him. ThTs the goddamn X WR. And some guy off the PS can't cover someone like that.
Prince did get beat on the ball and he caught up and made a good play. But yeah great single coverage because we were focused on stopping the run. Reminds me of how we used to do things when our running game was top notch and Place was single covered because teams were trying to stop earth, wind s d fire.
Prince had really good coverage on a number of plays. The play he was beaten deep that he got a hand on was caused by JPP hitting Romo early.
The issue continues to be the DC not wanting to give up big plays on D, yet almost every time the D rushes 3, they give up a big play. What adjustments does this DC offer during the game.
Dallas puts a top 5 WR in the slot and our DC responds with Fenner - brillaint
Giants have a lead, momentum, Dallas pinned and promptly give it all up
Fenner was on the field 4 plays and was hit with a 44 yard play.
There's no excusing that. It's not about shadowing Dez... it's about the larger problems with the defense like players not knowing where they're supposed to be or who they're covering. It's about the defense's propensity for allowing the opponent massive advantages solely by putting a great receiver in the slot (I can't get over Williams covering Megatron in the slot). In this case, there's no reason on Earth why Prince should be covering Cole Beasley while Fenner covers Dez Bryant. That should never, ever happen.
Come on already. The defensive call was pretty clearly not to single Fenner up on Bryant.
Fenner is lined up in the slot, we are playing man coverage. Unless Prince's assignment was Dez specifically, they are designated the WR who lines up in front of them in that particular coverage. We pretty clearly did not expect Dez to line up in the slot but they motioned and he did and we didn't have time to adjust.
This shit happens in football games.
Gee, should we post photos of the Miracle on the Meadowlands II
(That defense was 1st in turnovers forced and 5th in sacks, BTW... )
But when I read belligerently stupid posts like "any DC who drops linemen into coverage should be fired" and then follow it up with clear evidence of a top NFL defense doing it, I'd hope some of the idiocy would cease.
Not keeping my hopes up, though. It's easy to spew out misinformed garbage on a message board because no one is accountable when they're completely wrong.
Come on already. The defensive call was pretty clearly not to single Fenner up on Bryant.
Fenner is lined up in the slot, we are playing man coverage. Unless Prince's assignment was Dez specifically, they are designated the WR who lines up in front of them in that particular coverage. We pretty clearly did not expect Dez to line up in the slot but they motioned and he did and we didn't have time to adjust.
This shit happens in football games.
And it shouldnt. Its not really hard to tell Prince.... "Hey, where Dez goes, you go." I am sure Fenner has played outside corner more than enough.
Thats a coaching problem. Not "Oh well, they got us" problem.
(That defense was 1st in turnovers forced and 5th in sacks, BTW... )
But when I read belligerently stupid posts like "any DC who drops linemen into coverage should be fired" and then follow it up with clear evidence of a top NFL defense doing it, I'd hope some of the idiocy would cease.
Not keeping my hopes up, though. It's easy to spew out misinformed garbage on a message board because no one is accountable when they're completely wrong.
So you're defending Fewell's radical defensive changes during the Miracle in the Meadowlands II b/c of yearly stats? The game was over until he made changes with 8 min left which opened up the running and passing lanes Vick.
As far as dropping linemen in coverage and wanting a DC fired. I think it goes well beyond a few mistakes. His assinine scheme against the Colts and Manning years ago was the dumbest scheme EVER (one DT and no linebackers but rather 3 DE's and all DB's playing LB). Gee, Manning ran the football.
Fewell sucks. Every year he needs to simplify the defense b/c ghe DB's afe always confused. Dropping JPP should be the last DLineman to drop considering he's the best pass rusher IMO. What's the point of drafting so many DE's?
So you're going back 5 seasons now and picking out random games as an indictment on the coach? That Eagles game had nothing to do with missed tackles (Kenny Phillips anyone?), turnovers (Mario Manningham?) blown opportunities (Derek Hagan?) the head coach not having the team prepared to field an onside kick or our idiot punter doing exactly what he was instructed NOT to do (and more missed tackles).. we just lost because of these "changes" that were made with 8 minutes left on the defensive side of the ball.
Oh boy, I bet there's no other DC in this league we can do this for... we all know no other DC has ever put together a shoddy gameplan. LeBeau has never done it... Fangio has never done it, Rex has never done it.. just the idiot who coaches our defense.
For two years he would call for the entire DL to slide to the east or west and refuse to go after the QB. Even against the worst QB's, he wouldn't attack but rather slide the line. He did it last year often.
If you want to defend Fewell, that's fine but you're lost if your believe fans just want him canned b/c he dropped JPP into a zone. Fans hate Fewell b/c he stinks and only those living on the moon don't recognize how he simplifies the defense every October b/c he's DB's are lost.
Oh, and back to the Miracle. Ignoring the defensive changes is comical. The Eagles did nothing offensivley and were shot. He dropped BOTH DE's into coverage and put JPP at Nose tackle. The whole field opened up in case you missed it
I'd like to see Fewell gone, but what passes for football discussion on here sometimes baffles me.
This is more of a witch hunt (pointing out some ridiculous cherry-picked examples to boot), instead of a discussion on defensive schemes.
I get it - a lot of people hate fewell (just like they hated Gilbride), but when it all boils down, this is less about the merits of the coaching and more about people disappointed that the team has failed to properly entertain them, so they channel that frustration into a lot of misguided analysis.
I really can't believe the premise that any DC who drops his best pass rusher into coverage is incompetent, since each and every team does it. But living in a vacuum sucks.
Maybe Fewell should go, maybe not, but I'll be damned if i can tell anyone here why he should go or stay, other than making sweeping judgements based on the OUTCOME of a specific play.
I disliked both schemes. However, I did respect Gilbride and what he had accomplished here. I thought he saved Elis career and did one hell of a job. I just wasn't a fan of the scheme and thought Eli would be better off in another scheme.
I dislike Fewells scheme and I just think he is an average DC. His scheme reminds me of a BOOM or BUST Gilbride scheme. Our defense is build on a 4 man pass rush and creating turnovers. If our DL can't get there and we can't get turnovers, we are in deep shit. On the other hand, when everything clicks, we get amazing games. There seems to be no middle ground. Similarly, like the Gilbride offense. We have amazing offensive production or have games where we get shut out or games like the Thanksgiving game when we played Denver and was a shit show.
From a glance, I don't like the scheme (t least the way I interpret it) that doesn't utilize the coverage strengths of Prince and DRC. Playing zone too often takes a bit of that advantage away, IMO.
But if I'm honest, I don't even know if that's correct or not - I'm just going on what I think I'm seeing. so it would be damn hard for me to create a post ripping into the coaching. Frankly, I don't do it with players, either. It is really hard for me to tell if somebody looks to be performing poorly if it is their talent, an undisclosed injury, poor coaching, or good opposition coaching.
I think Fewell's average as well, but many of the criticisms are results-based analysis (as FMIC said). I think we lack talent on both sides of the ball. He did a very good job in 2010.
because his scheme works if you can generate a pass rush with 4 men. If you can't than it is a huge problem and we have seen the results. I think in some way that is why we improved in 2011, the pass rush got better toward end of the year and we were able to get stops. Before the Jets, we were getting torched the month before, at NO, even in the Dallas game we won w let up over 30 points and would have lost if Austin did not lose the ball in the lights. My issue with Fewell is that he does not seem to adapt if he cannot get pressure with the front four. Sometimes, when it is 3rd and longer than 5 I am screaming (either at my TV or at the game), just blitz and man up, that is why we pay CBs the way we pay Prince and DRC.
(P.S.-last year is hard to count because of the terrible qbs we played, Barkley, Cousins, RGIII injured, Pryor, Tolzien, etc, but when we played good qbs like Manning, Romo, and Rivers we got torched).
is no excuse for the constant communications errors. that is fewell's fault. it's happening with different personnel so it's not as if there is one bad apple.
Every defense is more or less predicated on the success of their front four. It's not unique to this defense. It's the same thing as an offensive line. When your OL is great, you can run the ball, you can pass protect and you move the football. It's why Dallas is doing so well this year.
If your OL is more or less average.. you'll more often than not get average results unless you get superhuman QB play (Luck, Rodgers.. Eli in 2011)
It works the same way defensively. If your front four is consistently not able to generate pressure, it severely limits what you can do. The QB has all day to throw when you don't blitz and if you don't get there when you do, he's going to look for his best WR singled up in coverage and most likely hit him downfield.
Look at the Seahawks defense. They did not have the same DC in 2012 and 2013/now but the 2012 defense was just as outstanding as the 2013 one for the most part. People put way too much stock in the coordinators. Now, all of a sudden, their defense looks more of the "good" variety than the great, intimidating defense we saw last year. Dan Quinn is there now and he was the guy there last year. What changed? Their personnel. They lost some guys to free agency, some guys are hurt. Their front 4 isn't quite as potent and that was the key to all of their success in recent years. This idea that they were some blitz-happy, cover 0 team wasn't really true.
At the end of the day, I think Fewell is a decent DC. Closer to average than anything.
But it doesn't matter who we bring in here. If the front 4 continue to be this ineffective against the pass, there's just not a whole lot anyone can do. Fancy, exotic blitzes will only get you so far and hide so much. It's still a game where you need to beat your man and win your battles.
Even if you flip it to our offense, I like McAdoo but with the OL we have right now, being thin at the skill positions.. I just don't see how we're going to field an above average offense this year. I expect both units to be basically.. average which is why I think this will probably be an 8-8ish football team. I think we are undermanned on both sides.
Any scheme works if you can rush the passer with four men
Its simple math. Four guys rushing vs 5 OL and the QB. The numbers swing heavily in the D's favor. A good D cord gets it done when a four man rush doesn't get home which has been our team for the better part of three seasons.
Us Giants fans were spoiled by having some the nastiest pass rushing front fours ever for a few seasons. At this moment we need someone to emerge opposite JPP for this D to work. Why Kiwi is playing the bulk of the passing downs at LDE is very puzzling. Moore or Ayres should be there.
Just keep him year after year, and pray one day we get the talent to make his scheme work?
If thats the case, we are basically have to ignore the offensive side of the ball and draft more DEs, LBs, an safeties.
Results matter. This hasnt been a 1 year thing. I think we all agree Bill Sheridan deserved to be fired after ONE year as DC. But if we are going to use the logic that you need talent to succeed..... what talent on this planet did he have?
you can play good defense without your front (whether a three man in a 3-4 or a four man in a 4-3) generating a rush if your corners are especially good. Look at the Jets with Cro and Revis. And, even the Seattle defense you talk about can be functional on the games they don't get a rush because of their corners. But, you need great corners to do it.
But regardless of who is here, they're going to be hard pressed to succeed with a front 4 that can't get to the QB, minimal talent at both OLB spots (none who can blitz effectively) and 1 good safety (maybe none if Rolle is gone after this year)
At this point, we can barely even put 2 good CB's on the field.
meaning if you have great man to man coverage, you can generate a pass rush because eventually the OL will break down. On the other hand, if you get a pass rush you don't need as good a coverage as you would think. Our problem is that we are stuck in a zone and when the front four doesn't generate a rush, it is lethal. I really wish PF would adapt and play man to man on days in which we don't get a good rush going. That is my problem with him. I think the perfect game to look at the problems with his scheme is opening day of the 2011 season against a bad redskins team. We could not generate a rush and Rex Grossman killed our zone. I bet if we played more man to man, we would have won that game.
with rules that favor the offense, having the Front 4 get to the QB is even more important than cover DB's, because even the best cover DB's are hamstrung with the rules. Look at William Sherman. Last year, he was untouchable and this year he's decent, but getting targeted more often and is giving up his fair share of big plays.
When DB's are called for minor infractions and essentially can't touch the receiver, getting to the QB quick has become more essential.
It appears to me that Giants LBs fill holes and make tackles for no gain or loss less frequently than many other teams. Instead I see them waiting and often drifting around in a no mans zone between the line and the receivers downfield. If they make a tackle on a run play it is typically 3-6 yds downfield.
Is this a personnel or scheme issue? Whereas other teams seem to encourage/allow LBs to decisively shoot gaps, our LBs always seem to wait and read before acting. So my question is, is this intentional scheme-wise, or are te Giants LBs slower to react or less willing to guess wrong?
RE: if it's all talent, then how do you explain Dallas' defense?
They're fairly effective this year and their talent absolutely sucks.
I wouldn't say their talent sucks. They just don't have big names. Durant, Carr, McClain, Spencer, Melton, Selvie, and Scandrick aren't bad players. They found cheap players that play hard and may have been underrated.
They also appear to play a relatively simple scheme that plays aggressive and tackles well. If the Giants tackled every player for no yards after contact or little yards after contact we would think Fewell was the greatest DC ever.
Dallas' D has been ok.. they were allowing more yards per carry than any defense in football before they ran into our juggernaut of a run game. They're still 30th even after that. 24th in net yards gained per pass attempt.
Only 6 teams have had fewer passes thrown on them than Dallas. Only 4 have had fewer runs.
As I pointed out in another thread, their offense is averaging the longest time per possession of any offense in football. Sometimes the best defense is good offense and their offense has allowed them to spend a good chunk of games on the sidelines.
Can't give up too many yards or points if you're not on the field.
There's some smoke & mirrors stuff going on with their defense right now. Pts allowed and yards allowed won't tell you the whole story.
deja vu' all over again
Why in the world you'd want Romo to sit back comfortably in the pocket and wait for a receiver to inevitably find open space I'll never know.
And Fenner looked silly out there.
Very frustrating, and you wonder what is the trend/strategy they are looking at.
I see that, too... and our LBs usually have about a half second delay after the snap when they blitz
Hosley was dreaming about smoking a joint after the play is over. Trel Can't blame him.
I wouldn't say that Holsey wasn't covering anyone on that play.
It looked like Beason or Holsey screwed up, but I'm not sure who. Aikman thought Holsey; Pierce thought Beason.
Whatever, it was another busted coverage in a big game.
I think Perry is a good DC with flaws... but his flaws are VERY annoying.
Demps blitzed but whiffed on Romo. I saw Beason blitz but didn't get close.
It's painful to watch.
I think Perry is a good DC with flaws... but his flaws are VERY annoying.
We don't have guys to cover the likes of Witten, Escobar, or Bryant right now. Yeah it is a weak or soft strategy but on the few blitzes called I think we can all see why Fewell often calls it that way. If I am Romo, anytime I even think there is a possibility of a blitz I am throwing it to Bryant or Witten as soon as possible.
"Hosley has good cover skills and instincts but is awful in terms of open field tackling. He needs to work on that to crack the starting lineup for the Giants. One thing that could have provoked this pick for Jerry Reese is Hosley returned punts and played special teams at Virginia Tech.
Hosley does have a lot of upside, but I cannot fathom how Reese passed on Bobby Massie. Obviously he knows what he's doing, but don't the Giants have enough corners?
Corey Webster, Terrell Thomas, Prince Amukamara, Antwaun Molden, Bruce Johnson, Michael Coe, Justin Tryon and now Hosley are all corners on the Giants' roster. The top four seemed to be enough for what Perry Fewell wants to do.
The right tackle position is far from as certain. At this point we have no idea who the offensive line starters will be. This could turn out to be a great pick, but I do not like who we passed up"
Bleacher Report Giants Round 3 2012 - ( New Window )
Venting over... FK!
Pierce said cover 2, which is what the Giants were in, means the LB gets and stays with the TE.
fast....athletic. ...he played zone
and stood there and let guy run
Come on, I would take your opinion over Aikman. Even about hokies.
What I don't understand is why TC and the front office haven't come to this glaringly obvious conclusion. Seriously, when you look at Fewell time with the Giants, what is his signature on the defense? Turnovers? I don't think so. Is it disguising exotic blitzes? Tight man coverage? Smash mouth bad ass bruising hits? No, none of these things describes Fewell's defense. Fewell defenses have always had one trait - they fail to come up with the big when they need a big play. Not to say they've never gotten a big play - they've had a few - but the defense can't get off the field when they must get off the field.
Venting over... FK!
Agreed, especially on a 3rd and long. We get jailbreaks thrown at us on 3rd downs but when we have a team in 3rd down we rush 3 and drop d-linemen into coverage. Doesn't make a lick of fucking sense.
They can't, hence the reason they're 3-4 and staring at a 7-9 season.
The issue was having Fenner on Bryant. We couldn't cover Bryant with the Prince, the PS player had no hope, and Romo went right after him. I doubt that having Fenner cover Bryant was by design.
Quote:
Just awful. How can the Giants win when the defense can't get off the field?
They can't, hence the reason they're 3-4 and staring at a 7-9 season.
I wouldn't say that Holsey wasn't covering anyone on that play.
It looked like Beason or Holsey screwed up, but I'm not sure who. Aikman thought Holsey; Pierce thought Beason.
Whatever, it was another busted coverage in a big game.
I don't think Holsey has covered anyone in 4 years.
I don't understand why when DEs are rushing the passer that they don't put their hands up at least disrupt the QBs vision a little.
I don't much see the point of it, but.. again. This isn't something that only the Giants do.. though most people here seem to think that.
And again. On the Fenner play, he was lineup in the slot and we were in man coverage. They motioned and Dez wound up in front of him and that's who he wound up having to cover. We weren't shadowing Bryant with Fenner.
And did it really matter anyway? Dez was beating Prince like a drum.
And no shit Quintin Demps sucks. Who are we replacing him with? We have one good safety.
But I guess he didn't know what he was doing either.
Quinn also has done it with Clemons and Avril. It's a legitimate part of their defense.
Fenner in Dez is God awful.
Prince was also beaten on an under thrown ball (the one he recovered in time to get a hand on).. that also should have been a TD. He wasn't stopping anything to Dez one on one. Romo was going to him every time he was singled up.
Here's Chris Clemons (DE) dropping into the flat to cover a WR..
Here's Avril dropping into zone coverage..
Here's the NT, McDonald dropping into a zone in the short flats and picking up Jimmy Graham. (If Fewell did this, people would be calling for his firing as per usual)
Prince did get beat on the ball and he caught up and made a good play. But yeah great single coverage because we were focused on stopping the run. Reminds me of how we used to do things when our running game was top notch and Place was single covered because teams were trying to stop earth, wind s d fire.
The issue continues to be the DC not wanting to give up big plays on D, yet almost every time the D rushes 3, they give up a big play. What adjustments does this DC offer during the game.
Dallas puts a top 5 WR in the slot and our DC responds with Fenner - brillaint
Giants have a lead, momentum, Dallas pinned and promptly give it all up
Fenner was on the field 4 plays and was hit with a 44 yard play.
There's no excusing that. It's not about shadowing Dez... it's about the larger problems with the defense like players not knowing where they're supposed to be or who they're covering. It's about the defense's propensity for allowing the opponent massive advantages solely by putting a great receiver in the slot (I can't get over Williams covering Megatron in the slot). In this case, there's no reason on Earth why Prince should be covering Cole Beasley while Fenner covers Dez Bryant. That should never, ever happen.
Fenner is lined up in the slot, we are playing man coverage. Unless Prince's assignment was Dez specifically, they are designated the WR who lines up in front of them in that particular coverage. We pretty clearly did not expect Dez to line up in the slot but they motioned and he did and we didn't have time to adjust.
This shit happens in football games.
But when I read belligerently stupid posts like "any DC who drops linemen into coverage should be fired" and then follow it up with clear evidence of a top NFL defense doing it, I'd hope some of the idiocy would cease.
Not keeping my hopes up, though. It's easy to spew out misinformed garbage on a message board because no one is accountable when they're completely wrong.
Fenner is lined up in the slot, we are playing man coverage. Unless Prince's assignment was Dez specifically, they are designated the WR who lines up in front of them in that particular coverage. We pretty clearly did not expect Dez to line up in the slot but they motioned and he did and we didn't have time to adjust.
This shit happens in football games.
And it shouldnt. Its not really hard to tell Prince.... "Hey, where Dez goes, you go." I am sure Fenner has played outside corner more than enough.
Thats a coaching problem. Not "Oh well, they got us" problem.
But when I read belligerently stupid posts like "any DC who drops linemen into coverage should be fired" and then follow it up with clear evidence of a top NFL defense doing it, I'd hope some of the idiocy would cease.
Not keeping my hopes up, though. It's easy to spew out misinformed garbage on a message board because no one is accountable when they're completely wrong.
So you're defending Fewell's radical defensive changes during the Miracle in the Meadowlands II b/c of yearly stats? The game was over until he made changes with 8 min left which opened up the running and passing lanes Vick.
As far as dropping linemen in coverage and wanting a DC fired. I think it goes well beyond a few mistakes. His assinine scheme against the Colts and Manning years ago was the dumbest scheme EVER (one DT and no linebackers but rather 3 DE's and all DB's playing LB). Gee, Manning ran the football.
Fewell sucks. Every year he needs to simplify the defense b/c ghe DB's afe always confused. Dropping JPP should be the last DLineman to drop considering he's the best pass rusher IMO. What's the point of drafting so many DE's?
Oh boy, I bet there's no other DC in this league we can do this for... we all know no other DC has ever put together a shoddy gameplan. LeBeau has never done it... Fangio has never done it, Rex has never done it.. just the idiot who coaches our defense.
There's no arguing with some of you guys.
I'm bowing out of this one. There's no point.
If you want to defend Fewell, that's fine but you're lost if your believe fans just want him canned b/c he dropped JPP into a zone. Fans hate Fewell b/c he stinks and only those living on the moon don't recognize how he simplifies the defense every October b/c he's DB's are lost.
As Chip Kelly says, culture beats scheme. Our culture is a four- or three-man rush that can't accomplish shit.
This is more of a witch hunt (pointing out some ridiculous cherry-picked examples to boot), instead of a discussion on defensive schemes.
I get it - a lot of people hate fewell (just like they hated Gilbride), but when it all boils down, this is less about the merits of the coaching and more about people disappointed that the team has failed to properly entertain them, so they channel that frustration into a lot of misguided analysis.
I really can't believe the premise that any DC who drops his best pass rusher into coverage is incompetent, since each and every team does it. But living in a vacuum sucks.
Maybe Fewell should go, maybe not, but I'll be damned if i can tell anyone here why he should go or stay, other than making sweeping judgements based on the OUTCOME of a specific play.
I dislike Fewells scheme and I just think he is an average DC. His scheme reminds me of a BOOM or BUST Gilbride scheme. Our defense is build on a 4 man pass rush and creating turnovers. If our DL can't get there and we can't get turnovers, we are in deep shit. On the other hand, when everything clicks, we get amazing games. There seems to be no middle ground. Similarly, like the Gilbride offense. We have amazing offensive production or have games where we get shut out or games like the Thanksgiving game when we played Denver and was a shit show.
From a glance, I don't like the scheme (t least the way I interpret it) that doesn't utilize the coverage strengths of Prince and DRC. Playing zone too often takes a bit of that advantage away, IMO.
But if I'm honest, I don't even know if that's correct or not - I'm just going on what I think I'm seeing. so it would be damn hard for me to create a post ripping into the coaching. Frankly, I don't do it with players, either. It is really hard for me to tell if somebody looks to be performing poorly if it is their talent, an undisclosed injury, poor coaching, or good opposition coaching.
(P.S.-last year is hard to count because of the terrible qbs we played, Barkley, Cousins, RGIII injured, Pryor, Tolzien, etc, but when we played good qbs like Manning, Romo, and Rivers we got torched).
If your OL is more or less average.. you'll more often than not get average results unless you get superhuman QB play (Luck, Rodgers.. Eli in 2011)
It works the same way defensively. If your front four is consistently not able to generate pressure, it severely limits what you can do. The QB has all day to throw when you don't blitz and if you don't get there when you do, he's going to look for his best WR singled up in coverage and most likely hit him downfield.
Look at the Seahawks defense. They did not have the same DC in 2012 and 2013/now but the 2012 defense was just as outstanding as the 2013 one for the most part. People put way too much stock in the coordinators. Now, all of a sudden, their defense looks more of the "good" variety than the great, intimidating defense we saw last year. Dan Quinn is there now and he was the guy there last year. What changed? Their personnel. They lost some guys to free agency, some guys are hurt. Their front 4 isn't quite as potent and that was the key to all of their success in recent years. This idea that they were some blitz-happy, cover 0 team wasn't really true.
But it doesn't matter who we bring in here. If the front 4 continue to be this ineffective against the pass, there's just not a whole lot anyone can do. Fancy, exotic blitzes will only get you so far and hide so much. It's still a game where you need to beat your man and win your battles.
Even if you flip it to our offense, I like McAdoo but with the OL we have right now, being thin at the skill positions.. I just don't see how we're going to field an above average offense this year. I expect both units to be basically.. average which is why I think this will probably be an 8-8ish football team. I think we are undermanned on both sides.
Us Giants fans were spoiled by having some the nastiest pass rushing front fours ever for a few seasons. At this moment we need someone to emerge opposite JPP for this D to work. Why Kiwi is playing the bulk of the passing downs at LDE is very puzzling. Moore or Ayres should be there.
If thats the case, we are basically have to ignore the offensive side of the ball and draft more DEs, LBs, an safeties.
Results matter. This hasnt been a 1 year thing. I think we all agree Bill Sheridan deserved to be fired after ONE year as DC. But if we are going to use the logic that you need talent to succeed..... what talent on this planet did he have?
At this point, we can barely even put 2 good CB's on the field.
What coverages did you think we were using when Prince was alone on Dez Bryant? Or when Witten caught a pass across the middle against J-Williams?
When DB's are called for minor infractions and essentially can't touch the receiver, getting to the QB quick has become more essential.
What coverages did you think we were using when Prince was alone on Dez Bryant? Or when Witten caught a pass across the middle against J-Williams?
of course we play man to man. it is the "plenty" I take issue with. I feel like on 3rd and long, in particular, we play zone much more than we should.
Is this a personnel or scheme issue? Whereas other teams seem to encourage/allow LBs to decisively shoot gaps, our LBs always seem to wait and read before acting. So my question is, is this intentional scheme-wise, or are te Giants LBs slower to react or less willing to guess wrong?
I wouldn't say their talent sucks. They just don't have big names. Durant, Carr, McClain, Spencer, Melton, Selvie, and Scandrick aren't bad players. They found cheap players that play hard and may have been underrated.
They also appear to play a relatively simple scheme that plays aggressive and tackles well. If the Giants tackled every player for no yards after contact or little yards after contact we would think Fewell was the greatest DC ever.
Only 6 teams have had fewer passes thrown on them than Dallas. Only 4 have had fewer runs.
As I pointed out in another thread, their offense is averaging the longest time per possession of any offense in football. Sometimes the best defense is good offense and their offense has allowed them to spend a good chunk of games on the sidelines.
Can't give up too many yards or points if you're not on the field.
There's some smoke & mirrors stuff going on with their defense right now. Pts allowed and yards allowed won't tell you the whole story.