team-friendly. Reese was well aware of Beason's injury history when structuring the deal. Only about six million is guaranteed which includes this year's salary, the $4.4M signing bonus, and $900K of next year's salary.
It is not very team friendly unless you know what others would have offered him. I don't know for sure, but either does anyone else, though I suspect no one was giving him close to 6M guaranteed.
And my point was I would have tried to structure it so the 6M guaranteed was all year 1. Maybe include a roster bonus for 1M in March of 2015.
that would have been a team friendly 6M guarantee.
3M guaranteed this year and 3M guaranteed next year is not really team friendly.
Almost 4M in dead space to cut him for next year and a 7.3M cap hit if they gamble on next year and keep him as currently structured.
can't stay healthy? Nicks, JPP, Wilson, Cruz, Beason, DRC, Jennings. That's a lot of talent either NOT on the field for you or on the field but playing at a lower level because of injury. I mention Nicks because his career here was cut short by injuries.
I can remember people being derided as idiots for questioning the trading for Beason or for questioning the contract. Now the guy is a bum.
The truth is he is a smart, talented, physically limited, 2 down MLB who can't stay healthy. My only complaint with him when he was healthy was that he couldn't cover backs or tight ends.
I said the Beason signing was like the Baas and Beatty signings....we had no one to play the position and he was the only one available out there...the caveat was, we saw what he could do when he was healthy, but could he stay healthy?
The only hope was to PUP him...but they didn't want him to miss the beginning of the season....he didn't and ended up possibly missing the whole season....it's another one of those Giant doctor decisions...all he needs is rest instead of surgery....so Reese takes another gamble, and fails....the money could have been used to keep Linval.....
can't stay healthy? Nicks, JPP, Wilson, Cruz, Beason, DRC, Jennings. That's a lot of talent either NOT on the field for you or on the field but playing at a lower level because of injury. I mention Nicks because his career here was cut short by injuries.
Hey man, don't you know everyone has injuries. [/sarcasm] (And you forgot Schwartz and Thurmond and McBride)
has been a problem (cost/cap notwithstanding), not because of hankins, but because of Jenkins and Mike Patterson and Markus Kuhn. Jenkins hasn't been active enough and Patterson and Kuhn aren't starters.
And interior of Linval and Hankins would have been great.
has been a problem (cost/cap notwithstanding), not because of hankins, but because of Jenkins and Mike Patterson and Markus Kuhn. Jenkins hasn't been active enough and Patterson and Kuhn aren't starters.
And interior of Linval and Hankins would have been great.
Good point. The pass rush would still be nonexistent but the inside runs would essentially be a waste of time for opposing offenses. Then the Giants could potentially afford to trot out the 3 safety look or the smaller faster linebackers more often.
I said the Beason signing was like the Baas and Beatty signings....we had no one to play the position and he was the only one available out there...the caveat was, we saw what he could do when he was healthy, but could he stay healthy?
More BS revisionist nonsense from you. He was worth what he got based on his play last year. He was healthy and stayed healthy as far as his previous problems were concerned. The problems he has had this year have nothing to do with his prior injuries. You're such a BS artist.
gambled with Beason and lost. He can't stay healthy. The trade, which I wrongly criticized, was fine. It was only a seventh. But the contract looks like a mistake. I'm not sure if not resigning Beason would have meant that we could have resigned Joseph, but even if we couldn't, Beason is just too banged up. His contract resembles what we did with Beatty, overpaid for a player because we had no or limited other options at the position. My understanding is that his cap hit is 7.3M next season, and about $3.5M if he's cut.
He needs to go on IR. We're already terribly slow at LB and S. Him playing is part of the problem. Go with Williams, McClain, Kennard. Use Paysinger and Herzlich as backups. Maybe bring a LB up from the PS. But Beason is done this year, and quite possibly as a Giant.
As I recall, Beason's deal has $900K of his base salary guaranteed for 2015. Granted, not a lot if they wanted to cut him (which I don't see happening), but if they do cut him you have to add that guaranteed money to the dead money total.
3 year 18 million was a joke. There is a reason we were able to get him for a 7th rounder. Solid, not great player. Cant stay healthy.
Later Beason
I agree with cutting him after the year. But they got a 7th for him because he was not starting in their lineup (out of position) and had a big CAP number. They paid for Beason's money last year.
But solid, but not great? He was a two-time All Pro. In a league that consisted of, mind you, Patrick Willis, London Fletcher, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Antonio Pierce, and James Farrior.
has been a problem (cost/cap notwithstanding), not because of hankins, but because of Jenkins and Mike Patterson and Markus Kuhn. Jenkins hasn't been active enough and Patterson and Kuhn aren't starters.
And interior of Linval and Hankins would have been great.
Absolutely correct. Joseph and Hankins would have anchored our DL for years to come. We would also not have had to reach for Bromley in the third round and hope he works out. Beason was an accident waiting to happen. He sucked it up to get his big contract now he is tapping out with the golden parachute. Another blunder by Reese and wshoever else makes these decisions in FA and the draft
BillT : 6:10 pm : link : reply
In comment 11934566 Doomster said:
Quote:
I said the Beason signing was like the Baas and Beatty signings....we had no one to play the position and he was the only one available out there...the caveat was, we saw what he could do when he was healthy, but could he stay healthy?
More BS revisionist nonsense from you. He was worth what he got based on his play last year. He was healthy and stayed healthy as far as his previous problems were concerned. The problems he has had this year have nothing to do with his prior injuries. You're such a BS artist.
Why did we get rid of Bradshaw? And, to an extent Tuck? And yet, Reese took a shot on a guy with physical problems....BS artist? Next year, he counts 7.4M against the cap.....still think he can be healthy for 16 games, Billy boy? I said Beason looked better than he was, in comparison to what the Giants were trotting out there, which wasn't too hard.....the best thing Beason brought to this team last year, was the relaization what a competent linebacker can do for this defense....he was a solid linebacker, nothing more.....To cut him nets us negative dollars next year....I wonder who they can sign for negative dollars?.....we better hope we can get some kind of playing time out of him next year....doubt we get 7.4M worth, though.....
But you think maybe Reese can finally address the LB position with a non-project in one of the 1st three rounds of this upcoming draft? The blatant ignoring of this position is starting to borderline on incompetence. The reaches and projects Reese take don't bother me as his blatant ignoring of certain positions. He's ignored LB for a half dozen years. Before that it was the O-line.
has been a problem (cost/cap notwithstanding), not because of hankins, but because of Jenkins and Mike Patterson and Markus Kuhn. Jenkins hasn't been active enough and Patterson and Kuhn aren't starters.
And interior of Linval and Hankins would have been great.
Cost notwithstanding? LJ got a boatload of money, for a team with this many holes you're talking about likely no DRC and impacting future years as well. That's one very expensive luxury up the middle.
You cant draft LB's high if there are none to get. Go look back at the drafts and see how few were available when the Giants picked
2009 Nicks was picked 6 picks later Laurenaitis, 9 picks later Maualuga. After Sintim, next LB picked was J. Williams (49 career tackles). Levy was picked 17 picks after Beatty. That is it until rd 4
2010: JPP - 4 picks late S. Weatherspoon. L. Joseph picked - next pick D. Washington. 10 picks later S. Lee, 16 later B. Spikes, 17 P Angerer. D. Butler was picked after C. Jones. 31 teams missed on Bowman. That is it until rd 4
2011: Prince at 19. 1st LB taken was A. Ayers at 39 and B. Carter at 40. J. Mouton at 60, D. Moch at 66, N. Irving at 67, K. Sheppard at 68, M. Wilson at 72, Missed with M. Foster. A. Dent @ 91. That is it until rd 4
2012: Wilson 32 - C. Upshaw 35, Kendricks 46, Wagner 47, David 58. R. Randle picked at 63 and then D. Davis at 77, S Spence at 86 - that is it for 1st 3 rounds
The list of LB greats that Reese keeps passing on in the 1st 3 rounds is staggering.
I said the Beason signing was like the Baas and Beatty signings....we had no one to play the position and he was the only one available out there...the caveat was, we saw what he could do when he was healthy, but could he stay healthy?
More BS revisionist nonsense from you. He was worth what he got based on his play last year. He was healthy and stayed healthy as far as his previous problems were concerned. The problems he has had this year have nothing to do with his prior injuries. You're such a BS artist.
Can't agree. It's exactly as Doomster said. As someone else has in here, we gambled and lost. Too much of that in the last few years. Give it up and back another gambler, that's all.
...then the decision is obvious. However this system seems to allow hurt players to stay on the field far longer than they should, often times making things worse for them and for the team.
Its ironic how Coughlin pledged to cut down on the injuries when he took the job because injuries are primarily due to a lack of mental discipline (according to him)...well I guess he's right on that because this team has a ridiculous injury rate...and its obvious that the team lacks mental discipline.
The Coughlin discipline myth...I'd take 53 guys that can't tell time and wear striped socks inside out...over a bunch that once on the field seems to have continuous brain farts.
Bradshaw injuries were all foot injuries and all related to one another. Tuck got a better offer than we were willing to give from the stupidest franchise in the league for a guy that was over 30. More BS from you. Beason can be released with cap savings os renegotiated for cap savings or made a post June 1 cut for savings on his dead money and his salary. You're FOS up to your eyebrows.
I don't think it's a big drop in play if McClain plays MLB. He has
been effective in that role. The problem is going forward as McClain is no kid. Reese continues to rely on old players with injury histories in key spots to make up for poor drafts or lack of drafting.
He's reading plays quickly, is decisive and assertive which gets him to the ball quicker, is often around the football, hustles, very good size/speed ratio, and he delivers a blow to the carrier.
#57 still needs a ton of work. He must be demonstrating something in practice, but in games he's a mistake machine, is non-physical, etc.
McClain is ok at MIKE, he is focused and works hard, he's serviceable.
he's not even close to making the same impact as last year. In fact, I think he's probabaly hurt the team when he's been in there. He's looked slow and out of position....and it is obviously the injury.
They are better off with McClain and getting Kennard more snaps/experience.
The concept of 'injury-prone' players is a tricky one.
Malingerers are easy to spot; but some dedicated, hard-working players are simply snake-bit. I don't there's any reliable way to predict who will become the next London Fletcher and who will be the next Sean Lee or Jon Beason. There are so many more of the latter, and NFL careers are so short anyway, that random chance and small sample size seem to swamp probability.
Clearly, some players are predisposed to certain types of injuries. David Wilson seems to have been an unfortunate example. There may also be a causative link between some injuries that appear unrelated: a player may injure one body part because he is favoring another, or may rush back from an injury without regaining football condition, making it more likely that he will get hurt again.
Mostly, I think Jon Beason has been unlucky. At this point, though, it's fair to ask whether his body is breaking down.
More BS from you Doomster
BillT : 8:11 am : link : reply
Bradshaw injuries were all foot injuries and all related to one another. Tuck got a better offer than we were willing to give from the stupidest franchise in the league for a guy that was over 30. More BS from you. Beason can be released with cap savings os renegotiated for cap savings or made a post June 1 cut for savings on his dead money and his salary. You're FOS up to your eyebrows.
But is Bradshaw playing this year on those feet? So why did we not resign him? Because we have seen him have problems.....If he was still on this team, Coughlin would have run him into the ground, like he has in the past....Indy is handling him differently, spelling him a lot with Richardson....We didn't sign Tuck because he got a better offer? True.....but why was our offer not as good? Because he was breaking down too.....there were nagging injuries over the course of his career....And what about Nicks? Why didn't we resign him? Because we didn't think he could stay the field too and perform at his former level, also.....
Why did Reese sign Beatty to a big contract, for one good season? Because there was nothing out there.....Same with Baas.....Now he has a linebacker, that if healthy, can man the middle for him.....he seemed to forget about Bradshaw, Tuck, Nicks scenarios.....he gambled, because his job may be on the line if the Giants don't make the playoffs this year.....you win 2 SB's in 5 years......then you possibly don't make the playoffs, 4 of the last 5 seasons?
Yes the Giants can save some money in 2015, by cutting him next year, and splitting his dead money, but then the other half of that dead money comes into play in 2016.....and if they do cut him, isn't that admitting that they made a mistake in signing him in the first place?
It's not bullshit.....it's the lack of direction of this front office....they are using a band aid approach to this team, instead of making the hard decisions......and maybe, just maybe, the people in position to make those decisions, are not the right people......we are not privy to how Reese makes decisions? How much influence does TC have? Fewell? McAdoo? Ownership?
In this day and age, it's not that hard to make the playoffs.....teams come out of nowhere and can make the playoffs......but if you make the playoffs and are a one and done type of team, how really good is that?
Yes TC, has won 2 SB's.....and that is tempered with, if the Giants do not make the playoffs, he will have coached 9 out of 11 seasons without a win in the post season.....
As for my opinions being BS and that I am FOS, look in the mirror....this is a message board.....nobody has to agree with anyone.....but you tend to lower yourself with the name calling.....must admit, I have done it in the past, too....trying to put myself above that.....hope you do too.....If you don't agree with anything I say, all you have to do is back it up.....the name calling and insinuations are juvenile.....
yesterday was a tough listen. Basically, Mike asking him if he's done for the year. Followed by what did the defense not do yesterday and Mike talking about how great the Cowboys offense is.
In general, I'm a big supporter of Reese but to give a guy with Beason's injuries a big contract with guaranteed money was just a really bad risk/reward scenario.
you can not call this "bad luck" or a "tough break" for the Giants--it was something that had a high likelihood of happening. There is a reason his original team basically just gave him away
It is not very team friendly unless you know what others would have offered him. I don't know for sure, but either does anyone else, though I suspect no one was giving him close to 6M guaranteed.
And my point was I would have tried to structure it so the 6M guaranteed was all year 1. Maybe include a roster bonus for 1M in March of 2015.
that would have been a team friendly 6M guarantee.
3M guaranteed this year and 3M guaranteed next year is not really team friendly.
Almost 4M in dead space to cut him for next year and a 7.3M cap hit if they gamble on next year and keep him as currently structured.
Not what I call team friendly.
The truth is he is a smart, talented, physically limited, 2 down MLB who can't stay healthy. My only complaint with him when he was healthy was that he couldn't cover backs or tight ends.
The only hope was to PUP him...but they didn't want him to miss the beginning of the season....he didn't and ended up possibly missing the whole season....it's another one of those Giant doctor decisions...all he needs is rest instead of surgery....so Reese takes another gamble, and fails....the money could have been used to keep Linval.....
Hey man, don't you know everyone has injuries. [/sarcasm] (And you forgot Schwartz and Thurmond and McBride)
And interior of Linval and Hankins would have been great.
And interior of Linval and Hankins would have been great.
Good point. The pass rush would still be nonexistent but the inside runs would essentially be a waste of time for opposing offenses. Then the Giants could potentially afford to trot out the 3 safety look or the smaller faster linebackers more often.
You can't keep signing players with this history and be surprised when they get hurt. Devon Kennard time.
More BS revisionist nonsense from you. He was worth what he got based on his play last year. He was healthy and stayed healthy as far as his previous problems were concerned. The problems he has had this year have nothing to do with his prior injuries. You're such a BS artist.
I don't think it was a reaming, but it definitely wasn't team friendly.
it was one of those contracts I think was in the middle (at best - with leanings toward being player friendly).
He needs to go on IR. We're already terribly slow at LB and S. Him playing is part of the problem. Go with Williams, McClain, Kennard. Use Paysinger and Herzlich as backups. Maybe bring a LB up from the PS. But Beason is done this year, and quite possibly as a Giant.
Yes, save 3.5 with 3.8 in dead space.
I know some people only focus on the savings not the dead space, but the dead space in essence reduces your total cap # to spend that year.
well. You take gambles because you have to.
Later Beason
I agree with cutting him after the year. But they got a 7th for him because he was not starting in their lineup (out of position) and had a big CAP number. They paid for Beason's money last year.
But solid, but not great? He was a two-time All Pro. In a league that consisted of, mind you, Patrick Willis, London Fletcher, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Antonio Pierce, and James Farrior.
And interior of Linval and Hankins would have been great.
Jon Beason May Be Done for the Season - ( New Window )
Quote:
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Championship?
What's this, the order we will lose the next 3 to injury for the season?
In comment 11934566 Doomster said:
Quote:
I said the Beason signing was like the Baas and Beatty signings....we had no one to play the position and he was the only one available out there...the caveat was, we saw what he could do when he was healthy, but could he stay healthy?
More BS revisionist nonsense from you. He was worth what he got based on his play last year. He was healthy and stayed healthy as far as his previous problems were concerned. The problems he has had this year have nothing to do with his prior injuries. You're such a BS artist.
Why did we get rid of Bradshaw? And, to an extent Tuck? And yet, Reese took a shot on a guy with physical problems....BS artist? Next year, he counts 7.4M against the cap.....still think he can be healthy for 16 games, Billy boy? I said Beason looked better than he was, in comparison to what the Giants were trotting out there, which wasn't too hard.....the best thing Beason brought to this team last year, was the relaization what a competent linebacker can do for this defense....he was a solid linebacker, nothing more.....To cut him nets us negative dollars next year....I wonder who they can sign for negative dollars?.....we better hope we can get some kind of playing time out of him next year....doubt we get 7.4M worth, though.....
And interior of Linval and Hankins would have been great.
Cost notwithstanding? LJ got a boatload of money, for a team with this many holes you're talking about likely no DRC and impacting future years as well. That's one very expensive luxury up the middle.
2009 Nicks was picked 6 picks later Laurenaitis, 9 picks later Maualuga. After Sintim, next LB picked was J. Williams (49 career tackles). Levy was picked 17 picks after Beatty. That is it until rd 4
2010: JPP - 4 picks late S. Weatherspoon. L. Joseph picked - next pick D. Washington. 10 picks later S. Lee, 16 later B. Spikes, 17 P Angerer. D. Butler was picked after C. Jones. 31 teams missed on Bowman. That is it until rd 4
2011: Prince at 19. 1st LB taken was A. Ayers at 39 and B. Carter at 40. J. Mouton at 60, D. Moch at 66, N. Irving at 67, K. Sheppard at 68, M. Wilson at 72, Missed with M. Foster. A. Dent @ 91. That is it until rd 4
2012: Wilson 32 - C. Upshaw 35, Kendricks 46, Wagner 47, David 58. R. Randle picked at 63 and then D. Davis at 77, S Spence at 86 - that is it for 1st 3 rounds
The list of LB greats that Reese keeps passing on in the 1st 3 rounds is staggering.
Quote:
I said the Beason signing was like the Baas and Beatty signings....we had no one to play the position and he was the only one available out there...the caveat was, we saw what he could do when he was healthy, but could he stay healthy?
More BS revisionist nonsense from you. He was worth what he got based on his play last year. He was healthy and stayed healthy as far as his previous problems were concerned. The problems he has had this year have nothing to do with his prior injuries. You're such a BS artist.
Can't agree. It's exactly as Doomster said. As someone else has in here, we gambled and lost. Too much of that in the last few years. Give it up and back another gambler, that's all.
lol - yeah right.
I would gladly trade DRC for keeping LJ on this team as would most sane people.
Its ironic how Coughlin pledged to cut down on the injuries when he took the job because injuries are primarily due to a lack of mental discipline (according to him)...well I guess he's right on that because this team has a ridiculous injury rate...and its obvious that the team lacks mental discipline.
The Coughlin discipline myth...I'd take 53 guys that can't tell time and wear striped socks inside out...over a bunch that once on the field seems to have continuous brain farts.
#57 still needs a ton of work. He must be demonstrating something in practice, but in games he's a mistake machine, is non-physical, etc.
McClain is ok at MIKE, he is focused and works hard, he's serviceable.
They are better off with McClain and getting Kennard more snaps/experience.
Clearly, some players are predisposed to certain types of injuries. David Wilson seems to have been an unfortunate example. There may also be a causative link between some injuries that appear unrelated: a player may injure one body part because he is favoring another, or may rush back from an injury without regaining football condition, making it more likely that he will get hurt again.
Mostly, I think Jon Beason has been unlucky. At this point, though, it's fair to ask whether his body is breaking down.
More BS from you Doomster
BillT : 8:11 am : link : reply
Bradshaw injuries were all foot injuries and all related to one another. Tuck got a better offer than we were willing to give from the stupidest franchise in the league for a guy that was over 30. More BS from you. Beason can be released with cap savings os renegotiated for cap savings or made a post June 1 cut for savings on his dead money and his salary. You're FOS up to your eyebrows.
But is Bradshaw playing this year on those feet? So why did we not resign him? Because we have seen him have problems.....If he was still on this team, Coughlin would have run him into the ground, like he has in the past....Indy is handling him differently, spelling him a lot with Richardson....We didn't sign Tuck because he got a better offer? True.....but why was our offer not as good? Because he was breaking down too.....there were nagging injuries over the course of his career....And what about Nicks? Why didn't we resign him? Because we didn't think he could stay the field too and perform at his former level, also.....
Why did Reese sign Beatty to a big contract, for one good season? Because there was nothing out there.....Same with Baas.....Now he has a linebacker, that if healthy, can man the middle for him.....he seemed to forget about Bradshaw, Tuck, Nicks scenarios.....he gambled, because his job may be on the line if the Giants don't make the playoffs this year.....you win 2 SB's in 5 years......then you possibly don't make the playoffs, 4 of the last 5 seasons?
Yes the Giants can save some money in 2015, by cutting him next year, and splitting his dead money, but then the other half of that dead money comes into play in 2016.....and if they do cut him, isn't that admitting that they made a mistake in signing him in the first place?
It's not bullshit.....it's the lack of direction of this front office....they are using a band aid approach to this team, instead of making the hard decisions......and maybe, just maybe, the people in position to make those decisions, are not the right people......we are not privy to how Reese makes decisions? How much influence does TC have? Fewell? McAdoo? Ownership?
In this day and age, it's not that hard to make the playoffs.....teams come out of nowhere and can make the playoffs......but if you make the playoffs and are a one and done type of team, how really good is that?
Yes TC, has won 2 SB's.....and that is tempered with, if the Giants do not make the playoffs, he will have coached 9 out of 11 seasons without a win in the post season.....
As for my opinions being BS and that I am FOS, look in the mirror....this is a message board.....nobody has to agree with anyone.....but you tend to lower yourself with the name calling.....must admit, I have done it in the past, too....trying to put myself above that.....hope you do too.....If you don't agree with anything I say, all you have to do is back it up.....the name calling and insinuations are juvenile.....
you can not call this "bad luck" or a "tough break" for the Giants--it was something that had a high likelihood of happening. There is a reason his original team basically just gave him away