who else would you replace him with? There's not another FA that comes close to his talent and there's probably nobody even in the draft (just speculation). He is still one of the top DEs in the league. His sack numbers are down, but he could be a force with more help too. I think he has to stay. Otherwise the GIants will be completely starting over and that's not a good strategy IMO.
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Have to agree here. Fewel is over his head and has been ever since he was hired. But Coughlin likes him and so do the players. Just the way it is.
Would the Giants consider the Franchise tag of JPP? Â
Traditionally, the Giants have not used that designation (I believe Weatherford is the only player) but JPP may be the first player to really force their hand to use it.
The 2014 tag was $13.1M. Assuming a modest increase, let's say $14M, it would likely be cheaper than if his agents are looking for $15-16M/year and without the long term cap commitments if they aren't comfortable with a deal like that.
JPP is a frustrating player because I think we'd happily see them pay him a mega-DE contract if he was consistently playing at that level, but he only flashes.
He relies purely on strength and tries to bull rush almost every time. He has all the tools in the world to be on the same level as JJ Watt. The problem is he isn't anywhere near Watt's level. It is not a question of who you replace him with but rather are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player? As of now and based off the past I would rather let him walk or franchise tag him like some other poster mentioned. There is no denying that he is a monster against the run but against the pass I will go as far as to say he is average at best. He is at that stage of his career where you don't want to hear the word potential anymore.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
If JPP goes....who replaces him? The Giants have had little success with keeping guys they have drafted around for a multitude of reasons. Adding one more to that mix is a frightful prospect.
Also....JPP seems like he may be a risk to sign to a big contract. Will his motivation continue.
work ethic questions, but a monster player against the run and pass IMO. You do wonder though if his interest will wane if he gets an equally monster contract. Is he interested enough in football to want to play at a high level after he gets a ton of money? Or will the money dampen or even spoil his interest? With the kind of contract he'll want, you have to be sure that won't happen. And right now, I'm not sure. But I'm sure a lot of other teams would be willing to pay him what he wants. He's one of the best in the league at his position. The Giants will certainly try and resign him, but assuming he stays healthy, and his current numbers project over the rest of the season, I think it's 60/40 that he leaves. Reese puts a number on every player, and doesn't waiver much. He did for Cruz IIRC, but for the most part he stays close to his original estimate.
Need to rebuild the whole DL, save for Hankins, Moore, and possibly Bromley. Others are old(er), past their prime, or simply going to want more money than their worth.
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Why was he so utterly dominant in 2011 if Fewell didn't know how to use him?
Makes zero sense.
His pass rush technique hasn't improved enough. He's still outstanding against the run. He has the physical tools. It has little to do with how he's being deployed. The scheme isn't holding him back from rushing the passer on pass plays, he's just been inconsistent and needs to develop more of a repertoire.
Of an elite but not superstar de.
If u dony you are digging an even deeper hole. He's still young and is an elite talent and had produced this year again. If he wants watt money u say fck off. But there is absolutely zero reason why at te very least he should be franchised.
Develop Moore and get a dt that gets a push and the sack numbers will go up again,
He's gone. Some team with major cap space will shell out a massive contract for him.
Agree completely. We will be outbid. The Giants always set a price and stick to it, and JPP doesn't strike me as a hometown discount kind of guy (not that I blame him). Our defensive line is becoming a big issue.
Year after year we hear how excited Fewell is with the Â
this DL without JPP this year....what a freakin' nightmare!
But, you can't break the bank for this guy......if I have a knock against this guy, it's consistency....we've seen just one year of 2011......and look who he had playing with him...injured in 2012....also in 2013....he's made us hold our breaths a couple times this season....you make a fair offer......that's all you can do....
Very good player - don't think he's great, not sure he's worth top-5 money, and I wouldn't break the bank on him based on whispers about his work ethic and his health concerns.
But if we could re-sign him for about the 6th-10th DE in the league money, then I'd be all for it. Replacing him isn't going to be easy.
But I'd be slightly wary giving him big money because I worry that he's the type of guy who might just be good with getting paid. He does already have a ring. Does he really want to be great or is he content just cashing his check?
I don't know the answer.
I'd hate to lose him but I don't know if we can afford to clog up too much of our cap on him.
Re-sign him - and you hope he plays up to his contract. I'd be just as concerned his health doesn't hold up as he mails it in.
Don't re-sign him - and you're either filling the position in FA (where there are no guarantees and the salary cap commitment isn't going to be much better), or you're going the draft route (which is an even bigger crapshoot).
This is where it would be nice to know what we have in Moore before we made our decision on JPP.
The work ethic may not be there and he's had some significant injuries. He hasn't gotten better than his first two years when he had so many other studs on the line. But I marvel at how he plays the run and for sure he's a force against the pass too. He's a formerly dominant player at one of, if not the, key defensive positions. And he may have a lot of big years left in him. So if I had to make a decision today, I would probably have to sign him because there's really nothing better.
Like some of you, I wonder if our entire defense would be better with a new D-co.
He just came off his best game of the year and you guys are ready to move on, hysterical!!! He should be moved to the left side and Moore should play RDE. Kiwi should be moved to the bench.
Most people want to continue to just look at sacks and nothing else. He is putting on the same amount of pressure he did in 2011. He has hit the QB every game and caused penalties, early throws, etc except Philly.
He seemed to use something other than a bull rush a number of times against Smith.
Look at the play where Prince was beaten deep, JPP got to Romo and forced the throw early. Goes as nothing in the stat book for him, but saved a TD
He just came off his best game of the year and you guys are ready to move on, hysterical!!! He should be moved to the left side and Moore should play RDE. Kiwi should be moved to the bench.
Well, I'm not "ready to move on" - but if someone comes by and decides to offer JPP JJ Watt money, do you match it?
Not that I think that's very likely, but there's a good chance someone's willing to throw a ton of money at JPP. That's where the decision becomes a bit more complicated than 'well, who else do we have?'.
But whenever you're going to need to commit a large amount of money to a certain player, you have to give it careful consideration and make sure it's the right move if you're going to do it. If there was no cap, it would be a no brainer. But this is a team sport and you don't want to get caught tying too many of your cap dollars up in just a couple of players unless you're sure they're worth it.
JPP has a load of talent and the tools to be great.. but there are legitimate question marks and reasons to have pause.
i would not be comfortable making a commitment to JPP. I don't think we can base a decision on what we pay him based on who else is on the roster. One thing when making a money decision has nothing to do with the other.
If we can get him on a fair deal, fine. But no way near $12M, I'd rather lose JPP and spread the money around the roster.
Fill the roster w often injured middle tier vets then a 25 year old coming into his prime DE. He also didn't get credit for a sack he did have in the ATL game. So if he has 9 sacks don't give him 12 million but if he gets 12 he should.
He's one of about 5 guys on the team with actual all pro talent. Maybe on of 3. Unless it's insane or his back goes again IMO he's a must resign.
You don't win w lots of mediocre players. That generally what Reese signs in FA with the exception of DRC. I shudder to think what an actual innovative DC might do with him.
At this point the Giants have to be considering extending JPP. The only other decent edge rusher on the roster is Moore and he is getting very little time. I guess they could hope to draft a quality end next year and pick up a B level FA DE instead. But JPP is actually playing very well. Imagine if we had pressure from inside and the other side a little more. The Giants have made it to super bowls when they have several pass rushers on this team. I was hopeful that Moore would earn a starting spot and Kiwi And Ayers would be the depth and 3rd down NASCAR package. I wouldn't give him JJ Watt money but he would get paid top 15 DE $. He is young and he is turning into a leader. Extend him while he is under contract.
RE: Year after year we hear how excited Fewell is with the Â
At this point the Giants have to be considering extending JPP. The only other decent edge rusher on the roster is Moore and he is getting very little time. I guess they could hope to draft a quality end next year and pick up a B level FA DE instead. But JPP is actually playing very well. Imagine if we had pressure from inside and the other side a little more. The Giants have made it to super bowls when they have several pass rushers on this team. I was hopeful that Moore would earn a starting spot and Kiwi And Ayers would be the depth and 3rd down NASCAR package. I wouldn't give him JJ Watt money but he would get paid top 15 DE $. He is young and he is turning into a leader. Extend him while he is under contract.
Every time we do this, we lose. JPP is good, not great. Don't tell me again "we just had to pay him -- we had nothing else." That is, pay the man, but not too much and not for too long. If he balks, give him up.
That doesn't mean you don't pay this player big money. Giants won't let him walk. He's 25 and playing great ball.
They will sign him to a 5-6 year deal and give him $50+ million guaranteed.
If he signs for that number the Giants could afford both JPP and Suh. He's already making roughly 4 million so that would only be 10 million per year (a 6 million dollar raise).
The Giants appear to be 13 million under the cap for next season if the cap does not increase. Of course, Rolle is coming off the books. A few cuts like Walton and Kiwi saves some cash.
Looking forward however, the Giants cap number is very favorable for 2016 even if Eli resigns for the same number (approx 20 per year).
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Have to agree here. Fewel is over his head and has been ever since he was hired. But Coughlin likes him and so do the players. Just the way it is.
Typical BBI. When professionals who live, breathe and eat this stuff every day don't do what seems self evident to unenlightened and ignorant amateurs, question the professionals.
but wherever you stand on it there are two big questions to consider. The obvious one is how will JPP react to being paid? The Giants obviously have a better sense of that internally better than any of us.
Another, more interesting question is whether the DE position is worth investing that much money in at all. JJ Watt isn't keeping the Texans defense from being pretty crappy.
But who was the big defensive end on Seattle last year?
It may be wiser to spread the resources around rather than keeping so many salary cap eggs in one basket...and that concept might apply to every position on the field.
He went to JAX.. their line hasn't been as good this year. He's not necessarily just because of him. I think they replaced him with Avril who was there last year but played some LB and was a rotational guy.. they move their guys around a lot on that front 7 so it's hard to tell.
He relies purely on strength and tries to bull rush almost every time. He has all the tools in the world to be on the same level as JJ Watt. The problem is he isn't anywhere near Watt's level. It is not a question of who you replace him with but rather are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player? As of now and based off the past I would rather let him walk or franchise tag him like some other poster mentioned. There is no denying that he is a monster against the run but against the pass I will go as far as to say he is average at best. He is at that stage of his career where you don't want to hear the word potential anymore.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
I like your point, but there are other points to consider than "are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player." For instance: are we a better team without JPP? Probably not, Kiwi is meh, Ayers is meh, and we don't know enough about Moore. If we loose JPP we have to replace him, but if we sign JPP and is always hit or miss then we are screwed as well.
Unless Berhe turns out to be legit, I don't know who we're going to put back there next year. Demps and Brown shouldn't even be options. Neither are any good.
He relies purely on strength and tries to bull rush almost every time. He has all the tools in the world to be on the same level as JJ Watt. The problem is he isn't anywhere near Watt's level. It is not a question of who you replace him with but rather are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player? As of now and based off the past I would rather let him walk or franchise tag him like some other poster mentioned. There is no denying that he is a monster against the run but against the pass I will go as far as to say he is average at best. He is at that stage of his career where you don't want to hear the word potential anymore.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
I like your point, but there are other points to consider than "are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player." For instance: are we a better team without JPP? Probably not, Kiwi is meh, Ayers is meh, and we don't know enough about Moore. If we loose JPP we have to replace him, but if we sign JPP and is always hit or miss then we are screwed as well.
Tough call. Glad I don't have to decide.
Part of what makes Watt great is that he can play all over the line, and gets matchups where he can surprise a guy because he's only playing him for 15 snaps.
For whatever reasons, we are so boring on our defensive line that JPP lines up against the LT 95% of the time. It's stupid and infuriating that JPP can't on 3rd and long get to match up vs a RG and let Ayers/Kiwi/Moore be the sacrificial lamb to go 1on1 vs the LT.
"one dumb owner" theory, someone will blow our offer out of the water. Daniel Snyder perhaps? Orakpo's days may be numbered there. It's about as tough a decision as I can remember the Giants making. Pro Bowl player at a position the organization values, and still a young guy. When Cano was a free agent, I was kind of hoping someone would overpay and take him. I feel the same about JPP.
RE: Rolle is the only good safety we have right now. Â
Unless Berhe turns out to be legit, I don't know who we're going to put back there next year. Demps and Brown shouldn't even be options. Neither are any good.
Rolle's a decent player. He's probably a replacement levelish player.
The problem is that you don't pay guys 7m to be league average at a position that needs to make plays.
Let's see what his numbers are after the season. Amazing physical gifts. Not too cerebral . I think he will be a force the rest of the year and it will be no question , and will be resigned. We need a new DC coach him up
on both sides. JPP has been battling well documented issues with his back. When he started feeling better last year you saw him flash the same pursuit and relentlessness until he ended up getting hurt again. There's also been the chatter about his work ethic, we forget that he came from USF (and also just picked up football fairly late in his life) which wasn't a big time program, there's going to be an adjustment period. IMO you have to pay him. I'm certainly no draftnik, but the chances are pretty good that we won't get a DE close to the same caliber, and the options available in FA will probably be older castaways. I don't see him as a shitbag that will just mail it in once he signs a deal.
I think he'll make more per year. If he keeps playing like he has this year, he'll get $45-55 million guaranteed and make more on top of that. It will be more than 10 mill/year. Closer to 14-15. That's what's waiting for him in FA.
Charles Johnson signed in 2011 for an avg of 12.6 over 6 years with 32 mill guaranteed. JPP will get more.
Robert Quinn signed for 41 mill guaranteed. Avg salary $14.2/mill year. And he had 2 years left on his rookie deal and they still gave him 41 million GUARANTEED.
Players like JPP are very hard to find. He's getting paid big time.
I think he'll make more per year. If he keeps playing like he has this year, he'll get $45-55 million guaranteed and make more on top of that. It will be more than 10 mill/year. Closer to 14-15. That's what's waiting for him in FA.
Charles Johnson signed in 2011 for an avg of 12.6 over 6 years with 32 mill guaranteed. JPP will get more.
Robert Quinn signed for 41 mill guaranteed. Avg salary $14.2/mill year. And he had 2 years left on his rookie deal and they still gave him 41 million GUARANTEED.
Players like JPP are very hard to find. He's getting paid big time.
excellent analysis.
I have no idea why our defense is so vanilla. JPP needs to be utilized like Watt, Ware, Miller, etc. Those guys play all over the line and find their best matchup. JPP needs that kind of treatment. Throw Moore to the wolves by letting him line up vs Tyron Smith and let JPP abuse another OL.
We're so vanilla on defense it hurts. Do we ever disguise a damn thing? When was the last time you saw us disguise something?
When we line up in cover 2, we stay there.
When we line up in press, we stay there
When we show blitz, we blitz.
it's maddening.
So prettymuch everyone acknowleges JPP isn't very bright, Â
but at the same time wants Fewell to move him all around multiple positions like he's got the mentality of Justin Tuck?
Okay....
People seriously underestimate what Antrel Rolle brings to the plate. The guy remains our best back seven D player this year, and he's a team leader and the brains of the D back field.
Maybe the Giants think his physical skills are diminishing, but I don't see it yet.
I don't think it would be totally out of the realm for some top 3-4 defenses to pursue him if he's only good for $7-9 mill. per season range due to a "poor" showing of sexy stats this season.
He has very excellent 3-4 DE characteristics, and I can only imagine how sick a certain defense would have with him on the line.
My initial reaction is that he isn't worth top 5 DE money Â
And that paying him that much will not be the best way to build the team. But if you credit PFF, he is currently the 2nd rated 4-3 DE in the NFL.
Physically, he is definitely a top 5 DE, but he doesn't inspire like other great Giants from the past. If I knew he would play with the effort he has so far this season - I would say he needs to be re-upped. But I don't trust that he will. Also, despite the fact that he has played an insane number of snaps, that he is lying on the turf so often makes me nervous at that price tag.
If he continues like this - he will get top 5 DE money and the Giants will have a very difficult decision. Regardless, they will have all the information to make the right decision.
Very tough call. Great athlete, but is he really a great football Â
player? A guy who wrecks games? Who dominates every week? I don't think he has shown that. On the other hand, who else do they have? A lot of $$ will go into this for a guy who doesn't even require double teaming on many occasions depending on the opposition.
This is when I'm glad to be just an opinionated fan and not the GM. :-)
It's popped up enough to warrant asking, luckily the team will know enough on that front. But, I'm concerned they'll pay him because it's easier than letting go and trying to reload the position.
If they can get it done and keep his cap hit around $10M, they'll probably pull the trigger. Something in the 5/50-60 range is feasible, but contracts like the one given to Charles Johnson are potential wrenches in the machine.
but wherever you stand on it there are two big questions to consider. The obvious one is how will JPP react to being paid? The Giants obviously have a better sense of that internally better than any of us.
Another, more interesting question is whether the DE position is worth investing that much money in at all. JJ Watt isn't keeping the Texans defense from being pretty crappy.
But who was the big defensive end on Seattle last year?
It may be wiser to spread the resources around rather than keeping so many salary cap eggs in one basket...and that concept might apply to every position on the field.
I would put my resources elsewhere if the demand is anywhere near Watt money..JPP of 2011, yes. Present JPP(who is playing well), no..
pay him like a star, not a superstar. I think if you pay him anything over 10 or 11 million a year, even if the cap goes up significantly, the negatives start outweighing the positives. At 10 million, if he will take it, it is fair deal for us.
If JPP wasn't on this team and its not like we are going to find a bargain on a great DE. You have to pay or use a draft pick, and there is 90% chance that the DE we draft won't be anywhere near JPP in production... Just look at what 6M cost us by letting Linval go.. Our run defense was a bright spot last year probably the best part of our team... now we suck..but we saved like 6M in cap.. You can't keep creating holes in your team and expect to rebuild...
In some respects, JPP is playing as well now as 2011 Â
he's just not generating the sacks. But, his overall play for the most part has been high level stuff.
Let's not overrate Linval, the run defense was spotty a year ago, and Hankins is a better player to boot. The point you're trying to make is legit, but Linval's not a stellar example to support it.
framework - dug up some recent big 43 DE contracts Â
That's negotiating from a big assumption, a point of weakness when you actually write the paychecks. I wouldn't utilize the polar opposite perspective as a tactic, as that tends to backfire.
I don't care how good he is against the run - the DEs who get the bigtime contracts get to the QB, because that is a much rarer skill than stopping the run. DEs who can play the run well but can't generate a lot of heat on the QB are pretty much a dime a dozen. No, it's not easy to find one as good at it as JPP, but you sure can get a lot more bang for the buck from that pool.
I'd like to see JPP stay because there's still a chance that he finally learns some pass-rushing technique and becomes a complete, elite DE, but I'm not sure how much I'd like to see the Giants pay for that lottery ticket.
RE: You don't pay DEs who aren't elite pass-rushers top dollar Â
I don't care how good he is against the run - the DEs who get the bigtime contracts get to the QB, because that is a much rarer skill than stopping the run. DEs who can play the run well but can't generate a lot of heat on the QB are pretty much a dime a dozen. No, it's not easy to find one as good at it as JPP, but you sure can get a lot more bang for the buck from that pool.
I'd like to see JPP stay because there's still a chance that he finally learns some pass-rushing technique and becomes a complete, elite DE, but I'm not sure how much I'd like to see the Giants pay for that lottery ticket.
it seems clear to me JPP's not performing like an elite pass rusher, but that logic suggests he's not a $15-16M per season player. Reasonable suggestion, imo. But, if he continues to play well and finishes this season strong, a team will pay him $12M+ per and I'd be ok giving it to him.
But, he's generating considerably more pressure this season and affecting games. Many NYG fans feel this defense is loaded with talent, but it's simply not the case, JPP and Hankins aren't getting a ton of help up front.
I do share the concern regarding his work ethic, and the fact this is a contract year for him.
And when he faces off against a tackle he can simply physically overpower and manhandle, he does so. Problem is that there are a lot of tackles in the league who just stone him, and at that point he pretty much just stands there and looks to bat down a pass.
His athleticism and strength allow him to manhandle and blow past blockers but not consistently. In the Eagles game there was a play where Brent Celek put JPP to his knees on a pass rush. As a run defender he is probably the best in the league at his position. But he is not an elite pass rusher, not even close. He hasn't developed or changed anything since he got into the league in that regard. Going by production and play he is a lot more like Justin Smith than he is JJ Watt.
He has applied pressure against the QB in every game but Philly. Just because sack numbers do not show up does not mean he is not pass rushing.
How is Robert Quinn doing 16 tackles 1 sack
C. Johnson 14 tackles 3 sacks 1 PD
So many of these DE's do not generate pressure but get sacks
We have argued on this board about Linjo vs Cofield and pass rush ability. Linjo had more sacks in less games in 4 years as a Giant than Cofield, but most thought Cofield was a superior pass rusher.
We have argued on this board about Linjo vs Cofield and pass rush ability. Linjo had more sacks in less games in 4 years as a Giant than Cofield, but most thought Cofield was a superior pass rusher.
You do not win by letting top talent leave at 25
I always thought of Cofield as more of a nose tackle. Linval's pass rush is much like JPP's but he doesn't have near the speed or quickness. Linval lined up in front of his man put two hands on his chest and pushed until he saw the quarterback.
then I want to see him produce at a high level. Giants are salivating for him to be dominant, just so they can win and they can lock him up to a justified contract.
Its not enough to be a really good run stopper. He has to affect the game as a pass rusher, that's what gets the money.
That being said, I'm not worried if they let anyone on that defense walk. I think they need some kind of overhaul, whether it's a new coordinator or just some new blood.
Giant stud defensive end in their prime the Giant let walk?
Defensive ends are the second most important position behind quarterback to this organization.
No chance the Giants let him walk. The Giants will use the franchise tag as leverage if necessary to bring his demands down closer to their price. He will eventually accept the long term guaranteed money as he won't play another year on a 1 year contract knowing first hand how injuries have effected him.
A healthy JPP is a great football player, the Giants know this and will not let the second best player on their team walk at 25 years old. This is the type of player we would die to have more of to build around. Young, homegrown, premium position, and more athletically gifted than most in the league at his position.
Its a great discussion and makes for a good article for the media but I'm 99% confident how this will end, and it will be the right move for all.
People here continue to overrate the sack numbers.
His QB pressure % (sacks, hits, hurries) was higher in 2012 than 2011. The big difference was the number of pass rushes. He had 700+ in 2011. 200 less in 2012. The QB pressure % was higher in 2012.
Only 2013 season had problems and he was injured. He is clearly back on track. At 25, he's one of the best in the NFL right now.
He's an excellent pass rusher who has stepped up vs the best OT in the division. He owns Trent Williams and Smith from Dallas. The performance on Sunday wasn't even his best vs Smith. He has dominated this elite LT in the past.
Just a few weeks back Smith kicked the shit out of Quinn from STL. This week JPP handled Smith once again. He got QB pressure. He consistently controlled him on runs to his side and he blew past him on runs to the other side to make plays. Complete domination and this was against what some call the best OT in the NFL.
But we have people looking for holes by knocking the guy's very strong 2012 season for sack numbers and the 2013 season when the player was injured.
He still has some things to work on but the player out there right now is an elite 2 way DE.
He hit the Cardinals QB repeatedly, He caused Fitzpatrick to throw INT's, he was unblockable the 2nd half of the Falcons game, he pressured Cousins into int's, he had 2 sacks, forced an early throw where the defender was beat, drew 2 penalties, all against a top LT. Oh he is also playing the run better than any other DE.
He had 3 tremendous games against Atl, Hou & Was but had zero sacks to show for it.
He has had consistent pressure on the QB except for the Eagles game.
Do people watch the games and see what he does or just care about sack numbers
I assume this is what you are talking about.
The article does laud him for his pass rush but also explains he is among the absolute worst pass rushers at converting pressure into sacks. He also is mentioned as being a great inside pass rusher but not nearly as good as an outside pass rusher.
JPP can still be a physical freak that can bring pressure at times. I among others feel that he hasn't developed fully. I don't know his pressure stats for this year so I could be wrong on the true effect he is having.
I personally wouldn't want to see him get Mario Williams or JJ Watt type of money right now from the Giants. JPP PFF - ( New Window )
We're in too dire a situation with our personnel in other areas to spend heavily enough on JPP to keep him. Some Jags or other bottom third team will pay out the a$$ to get him. We've got the balance of this year and another offseason to get Moore ready for primetime. Ayers can stay on the other side and be effective. For depth, we'll need a couple of FA's and of course a draft pick. Kiwi is toast. But don't overspend on JPP. He's not the leader we need him to be, he's inconsistent at the point of attack, and he's apt to be injured more than most.
The cap should approach 140-150 million within a few years so, unless QB's start getting 35-40 million a year, teams should be able to afford $12 million dollar a year players. Especially with this new CBA and so many vets signing for few dollars and short contracts.
A few more sacks did not come in 2012 so they say he has an issue converting pressure into sacks. That is a ridiculous conclusion.
He averages half a sack a game over his career.
If he was among the best at generating pressure but among the worst for sack totals what kind of conclusion would you expect people to draw?
First of all, who determines what constitutes "pressure"? Seems like a pretty wide gray area. Sacks may be overrated, but they're ironclad. We're not talking about a small sample size here - over the course of the past 34 games, he has 12 sacks. If he's generating so much pressure, why does it so infrequently turn into a loss for the other team?
Secondly, I think you're pretty well overrating his game last Sunday. He did fine work against the run, but as usual his pass rush was sporadic. "Domination" is what Connor Barwin (goddamn, I still can't believe that guy ruined us) did to Justin Pugh.
Just to see if we have a real player there. We know he is not now, and never has been a super star on the right side. let's find out what he can do going against slower right tackles. It may just turn him into a perennial pro-bowler.
hard decisions have to be made next year....our drafts are not filling spots as quickly as players are aging, or getting injured....
It's time for these hard decisions.....The front office thought we were just a few players away.....by the end of the season will they still feel the same way?
There is no way the Giants will offer Rolle, in the neighborhood of 7M.....so how much of a paycut will he accept? What is his ceiling on the open market? Are there safeties to be had out there for much less?
Yes Rolle is a solid safety....we have no others at this point in time.....but Rolle is not worth 7M next year......JPP, Rolle, Thurmond, S. Brown, JW, Paysinger, Hyno, Demps, JJ, Brewer, Patterson, C. Brown, Jerry, Bowman,
Fells, Donnell, just to name a few, are free agents next year.....at the end of the season, who do you keep, and at what price? In some cases, if they go out on the open market, that decision is out of your hands.....yes, that list has a lot of guys that can be easily replaced, but how good will the replacements be?
But more importantly, what direction, is this team going? A rebuild or another band aid season?
Every team tracks QB pressure for their players. The numbers I used were from PFF. But every team tracks it. Consistent QB pressure is more important than sacks.
One thing that I know is inaccurate with stats is TFL. I have tracked this for JPP. His listed TFL stats are lower than the actual number.
I think Greg has had the view I agree with most here Â
I have been one touting JPP's play this year because frankly I think it is very good. But, I point to it mostly to those who say he is done simply because of the sack numbers. That said, sacks are not to be thrown out either.
The bottom line is, I think he is a very good DE who is excellent against the run. But, after more than a few seasons in the league he hasn't seemed to learned and adapted enough to be considered an elite DE. that is mostly his inability to consistently get to the QB.
Ideally, the giants are able to keep him at a very reasonable price. I would be fine with this. However, I think he is going to demand top 5 money, like those listed earlier in this thread. I think someone looking to add 1 piece to a young and already talented D will pay him in that neighborhood. However, I don't think that team should be the Giants with so much money already committed to Manning and who can easily be extended to create cap space. The problem is without JPP this D will be far worse. I'd certainly like to concentrate on other areas in the draft that are bigger needs.
What the game on short cuts again and watch every snap. He kicked Smith's ass. In the 2nd half he was consistently the only Giant DL playing on the Dallas side of the LOS.
His last series was exceptional. He made 3 sick plays vs the run. One TFL, 2 more hits in the backfeild on running plats. One of them Murray picked up a half a yard. These were all first down plays. He put us in 2nd and longs. 2 of the runs were to the other side. Watch it again. He goes past Smith like he was Brandon Myers.
On the slant to Bryant on the last series he made a strong inside rush and then bounced outside. Smith held him behind the shoulders and threw him to the ground. It should have been a hold.
The same thing happened on the 2nd Escobar TD. He pulled away from Smith who grabbed him behind the shoulder and threw him down.
He saved a TD on the hit to Romo when Bryant beat Prince.
said they talked to him during the game about moving him around more. They did it on a few plays. He didn't want to move because he was kicking Smith's ass (and he has done it in the past).
The same is true For Trent Williams in WAS. He's a top OT, right? JPP kicks that guys ass every game. He plays the game on the WAS side all day long.
Wasn't he injured in 2013 (and part of 2012)? Yes he was but you insist (like many here) of throwing out sack numbers to evaluate the guy we have right now and the value he will bring over the next several years?
The half a sack over a 4 year career when 1.5 years he was injured? That's how you want to evaluate the player going forward?
I'm looking at what he has done when healthy and it's exceptional. And he's doing it again right now. He's 25. If he's healthy the Giants should give him very big money.
The half a sack over a 4 year career when 1.5 years he was injured? That's how you want to evaluate the player going forward?
I'm looking at what he has done when healthy and it's exceptional. And he's doing it again right now. He's 25. If he's healthy the Giants should give him very big money.
You are throwing out a period where he played hurt because it doesn't fit your narrative. Most players play hurt and are rarely if ever 100%. So in this year in 7 games (healthy as he will ever be) he has 3.5 sacks and has disappeared for the first half of the Falcons game, the entire Eagles game and his pass rush IMO has been sporadic in the other games.
I am open to being wrong on the amount of pressure he has been putting this year but I still don't see a player worth a 100 million dollar contract.
hard decisions have to be made next year....our drafts are not filling spots as quickly as players are aging, or getting injured....
It's time for these hard decisions.....The front office thought we were just a few players away.....by the end of the season will they still feel the same way?
There is no way the Giants will offer Rolle, in the neighborhood of 7M.....so how much of a paycut will he accept? What is his ceiling on the open market? Are there safeties to be had out there for much less?
Yes Rolle is a solid safety....we have no others at this point in time.....but Rolle is not worth 7M next year......JPP, Rolle, Thurmond, S. Brown, JW, Paysinger, Hyno, Demps, JJ, Brewer, Patterson, C. Brown, Jerry, Bowman,
Fells, Donnell, just to name a few, are free agents next year.....at the end of the season, who do you keep, and at what price? In some cases, if they go out on the open market, that decision is out of your hands.....yes, that list has a lot of guys that can be easily replaced, but how good will the replacements be?
But more importantly, what direction, is this team going? A rebuild or another band aid season?
I think Rolle is the most important FA on this list. He's the heart and soul of the defense. And he has started every single game for the Giants since 2010, and rarely missed time in his career for injuries, so he's been durable as well.
Still, having said all that, he'll be 32 in December, so the issue to me isn't so much the annual dollar amount as the length of the contract.
If the Giants do not re-sign JPP, than they should also trade Eli Manning for picks, begin the Nassib era and switch to a 3-4 defense.
The Giants are going to have more money than they did last year to spend in FA and that's before Eli Manning should sign an extension to lower his 2015 cap number.
JPP is dominant against the run. He had two sacks this past Sunday against what many call the best OL in football. What more do people want from this guy?
Yeah, he doesn't have the gaudy sack numbers. But he is one of the best 4-3 defensive ends in football.
With a rising cap, it's inexcusable to be afraid to pay this guy $10 mil plus a year.
If the Giants do not re-sign JPP, than they should also trade Eli Manning for picks, begin the Nassib era and switch to a 3-4 defense.
The Giants are going to have more money than they did last year to spend in FA and that's before Eli Manning should sign an extension to lower his 2015 cap number.
JPP is dominant against the run. He had two sacks this past Sunday against what many call the best OL in football. What more do people want from this guy?
Yeah, he doesn't have the gaudy sack numbers. But he is one of the best 4-3 defensive ends in football.
With a rising cap, it's inexcusable to be afraid to pay this guy $10 mil plus a year.
Some of these guys act like it's their own money. JPP will get paid. They are nuts if they don't.
Right now JPP has Kiwanuka who can be blocked with a TE. Its like having a slow LB going up against a tackle. Kiwanuka couldn't beat a sub that wasn't even playing football last year.
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
The 2014 tag was $13.1M. Assuming a modest increase, let's say $14M, it would likely be cheaper than if his agents are looking for $15-16M/year and without the long term cap commitments if they aren't comfortable with a deal like that.
JPP is a frustrating player because I think we'd happily see them pay him a mega-DE contract if he was consistently playing at that level, but he only flashes.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
That being said I think they wait until later this season and work out a long term deal.
If he wants more, LET HIM WALK.
Beside Eli Manning and maybe one or two other guys (who I can't really think of at the moment)...
...NO ONE IS INDISPENSABLE TO THIS TEAM.
Neither JPP or anyone else is really that good to demand big bucks.
Also....JPP seems like he may be a risk to sign to a big contract. Will his motivation continue.
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Why was he so utterly dominant in 2011 if Fewell didn't know how to use him?
Makes zero sense.
His pass rush technique hasn't improved enough. He's still outstanding against the run. He has the physical tools. It has little to do with how he's being deployed. The scheme isn't holding him back from rushing the passer on pass plays, he's just been inconsistent and needs to develop more of a repertoire.
If u dony you are digging an even deeper hole. He's still young and is an elite talent and had produced this year again. If he wants watt money u say fck off. But there is absolutely zero reason why at te very least he should be franchised.
Develop Moore and get a dt that gets a push and the sack numbers will go up again,
Agree completely. We will be outbid. The Giants always set a price and stick to it, and JPP doesn't strike me as a hometown discount kind of guy (not that I blame him). Our defensive line is becoming a big issue.
But, you can't break the bank for this guy......if I have a knock against this guy, it's consistency....we've seen just one year of 2011......and look who he had playing with him...injured in 2012....also in 2013....he's made us hold our breaths a couple times this season....you make a fair offer......that's all you can do....
But if we could re-sign him for about the 6th-10th DE in the league money, then I'd be all for it. Replacing him isn't going to be easy.
I don't know the answer.
I'd hate to lose him but I don't know if we can afford to clog up too much of our cap on him.
Don't re-sign him - and you're either filling the position in FA (where there are no guarantees and the salary cap commitment isn't going to be much better), or you're going the draft route (which is an even bigger crapshoot).
This is where it would be nice to know what we have in Moore before we made our decision on JPP.
Like some of you, I wonder if our entire defense would be better with a new D-co.
He seemed to use something other than a bull rush a number of times against Smith.
Look at the play where Prince was beaten deep, JPP got to Romo and forced the throw early. Goes as nothing in the stat book for him, but saved a TD
You pay him
Well, I'm not "ready to move on" - but if someone comes by and decides to offer JPP JJ Watt money, do you match it?
Not that I think that's very likely, but there's a good chance someone's willing to throw a ton of money at JPP. That's where the decision becomes a bit more complicated than 'well, who else do we have?'.
JPP has a load of talent and the tools to be great.. but there are legitimate question marks and reasons to have pause.
If we can get him on a fair deal, fine. But no way near $12M, I'd rather lose JPP and spread the money around the roster.
He's one of about 5 guys on the team with actual all pro talent. Maybe on of 3. Unless it's insane or his back goes again IMO he's a must resign.
You don't win w lots of mediocre players. That generally what Reese signs in FA with the exception of DRC. I shudder to think what an actual innovative DC might do with him.
Yup
Every time we do this, we lose. JPP is good, not great. Don't tell me again "we just had to pay him -- we had nothing else." That is, pay the man, but not too much and not for too long. If he balks, give him up.
They will sign him to a 5-6 year deal and give him $50+ million guaranteed.
They will sign him to a 5-6 year deal and give him $50+ million guaranteed.
If he signs for that number the Giants could afford both JPP and Suh. He's already making roughly 4 million so that would only be 10 million per year (a 6 million dollar raise).
The Giants appear to be 13 million under the cap for next season if the cap does not increase. Of course, Rolle is coming off the books. A few cuts like Walton and Kiwi saves some cash.
Looking forward however, the Giants cap number is very favorable for 2016 even if Eli resigns for the same number (approx 20 per year).
Quote:
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Have to agree here. Fewel is over his head and has been ever since he was hired. But Coughlin likes him and so do the players. Just the way it is.
Another, more interesting question is whether the DE position is worth investing that much money in at all. JJ Watt isn't keeping the Texans defense from being pretty crappy.
But who was the big defensive end on Seattle last year?
It may be wiser to spread the resources around rather than keeping so many salary cap eggs in one basket...and that concept might apply to every position on the field.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
I like your point, but there are other points to consider than "are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player." For instance: are we a better team without JPP? Probably not, Kiwi is meh, Ayers is meh, and we don't know enough about Moore. If we loose JPP we have to replace him, but if we sign JPP and is always hit or miss then we are screwed as well.
Tough call. Glad I don't have to decide.
Let Rolle walk
Cut Kiwi
Cut Jenkins
Cut Beason
Unless Berhe turns out to be legit, I don't know who we're going to put back there next year. Demps and Brown shouldn't even be options. Neither are any good.
Quote:
He relies purely on strength and tries to bull rush almost every time. He has all the tools in the world to be on the same level as JJ Watt. The problem is he isn't anywhere near Watt's level. It is not a question of who you replace him with but rather are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player? As of now and based off the past I would rather let him walk or franchise tag him like some other poster mentioned. There is no denying that he is a monster against the run but against the pass I will go as far as to say he is average at best. He is at that stage of his career where you don't want to hear the word potential anymore.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
I like your point, but there are other points to consider than "are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player." For instance: are we a better team without JPP? Probably not, Kiwi is meh, Ayers is meh, and we don't know enough about Moore. If we loose JPP we have to replace him, but if we sign JPP and is always hit or miss then we are screwed as well.
Tough call. Glad I don't have to decide.
Part of what makes Watt great is that he can play all over the line, and gets matchups where he can surprise a guy because he's only playing him for 15 snaps.
For whatever reasons, we are so boring on our defensive line that JPP lines up against the LT 95% of the time. It's stupid and infuriating that JPP can't on 3rd and long get to match up vs a RG and let Ayers/Kiwi/Moore be the sacrificial lamb to go 1on1 vs the LT.
Unless Berhe turns out to be legit, I don't know who we're going to put back there next year. Demps and Brown shouldn't even be options. Neither are any good.
Rolle's a decent player. He's probably a replacement levelish player.
The problem is that you don't pay guys 7m to be league average at a position that needs to make plays.
He's a legitimately good safety. You don't find guys like him just floating around in free agency every year.
Charles Johnson signed in 2011 for an avg of 12.6 over 6 years with 32 mill guaranteed. JPP will get more.
Robert Quinn signed for 41 mill guaranteed. Avg salary $14.2/mill year. And he had 2 years left on his rookie deal and they still gave him 41 million GUARANTEED.
Players like JPP are very hard to find. He's getting paid big time.
Charles Johnson signed in 2011 for an avg of 12.6 over 6 years with 32 mill guaranteed. JPP will get more.
Robert Quinn signed for 41 mill guaranteed. Avg salary $14.2/mill year. And he had 2 years left on his rookie deal and they still gave him 41 million GUARANTEED.
Players like JPP are very hard to find. He's getting paid big time.
excellent analysis.
I have no idea why our defense is so vanilla. JPP needs to be utilized like Watt, Ware, Miller, etc. Those guys play all over the line and find their best matchup. JPP needs that kind of treatment. Throw Moore to the wolves by letting him line up vs Tyron Smith and let JPP abuse another OL.
We're so vanilla on defense it hurts. Do we ever disguise a damn thing? When was the last time you saw us disguise something?
When we line up in cover 2, we stay there.
When we line up in press, we stay there
When we show blitz, we blitz.
it's maddening.
Okay....
People seriously underestimate what Antrel Rolle brings to the plate. The guy remains our best back seven D player this year, and he's a team leader and the brains of the D back field.
Maybe the Giants think his physical skills are diminishing, but I don't see it yet.
Is a team with a few stars and a few holes better than a team with solid starters and good depth at every position?
It's paying him to his likely production level.
I don't think it would be totally out of the realm for some top 3-4 defenses to pursue him if he's only good for $7-9 mill. per season range due to a "poor" showing of sexy stats this season.
He has very excellent 3-4 DE characteristics, and I can only imagine how sick a certain defense would have with him on the line.
Physically, he is definitely a top 5 DE, but he doesn't inspire like other great Giants from the past. If I knew he would play with the effort he has so far this season - I would say he needs to be re-upped. But I don't trust that he will. Also, despite the fact that he has played an insane number of snaps, that he is lying on the turf so often makes me nervous at that price tag.
If he continues like this - he will get top 5 DE money and the Giants will have a very difficult decision. Regardless, they will have all the information to make the right decision.
This is when I'm glad to be just an opinionated fan and not the GM. :-)
If they can get it done and keep his cap hit around $10M, they'll probably pull the trigger. Something in the 5/50-60 range is feasible, but contracts like the one given to Charles Johnson are potential wrenches in the machine.
Another, more interesting question is whether the DE position is worth investing that much money in at all. JJ Watt isn't keeping the Texans defense from being pretty crappy.
But who was the big defensive end on Seattle last year?
It may be wiser to spread the resources around rather than keeping so many salary cap eggs in one basket...and that concept might apply to every position on the field.
I would put my resources elsewhere if the demand is anywhere near Watt money..JPP of 2011, yes. Present JPP(who is playing well), no..
Let's not overrate Linval, the run defense was spotty a year ago, and Hankins is a better player to boot. The point you're trying to make is legit, but Linval's not a stellar example to support it.
8 years, $108.88M, $51.8M guaranteed
Everson Griffen (Vikings):
5 years, $42.5M, $19.8M guaranteed
Michael Johnson (Bucs):
5 years, $43.75M, $24M guaranteed
Chris Long (Rams):
5 years, $60.31M, $36.76M guaranteed
Julius Peppers (Bears):
6 years, $91.5M, $42M guaranteed
---------
Average starting point on JPP Contract:
6 years, $70M, $35M guaranteed
I would give him that in a heartbeat, will be interesting to see if he pushes for "Watt money"
if we they do that, the next offer is in the 5-year, $40M, $25M guaranteed range
do we take into account the Hall of Fame-type talent when doing his numbers?
I'd like to see JPP stay because there's still a chance that he finally learns some pass-rushing technique and becomes a complete, elite DE, but I'm not sure how much I'd like to see the Giants pay for that lottery ticket.
I'd like to see JPP stay because there's still a chance that he finally learns some pass-rushing technique and becomes a complete, elite DE, but I'm not sure how much I'd like to see the Giants pay for that lottery ticket.
Well reasoned imo
I do share the concern regarding his work ethic, and the fact this is a contract year for him.
If Fewell wants to play that game, fine, but the organization can't pay top dollar for DE's if he 's not going get the QB.
The Giants are ranked 19th in sacks and the line has been pretty healthy up until last week.
He hasn't really developed many pass rush moves.
How is Robert Quinn doing 16 tackles 1 sack
C. Johnson 14 tackles 3 sacks 1 PD
So many of these DE's do not generate pressure but get sacks
We have argued on this board about Linjo vs Cofield and pass rush ability. Linjo had more sacks in less games in 4 years as a Giant than Cofield, but most thought Cofield was a superior pass rusher.
You do not win by letting top talent leave at 25
We have argued on this board about Linjo vs Cofield and pass rush ability. Linjo had more sacks in less games in 4 years as a Giant than Cofield, but most thought Cofield was a superior pass rusher.
You do not win by letting top talent leave at 25
I always thought of Cofield as more of a nose tackle. Linval's pass rush is much like JPP's but he doesn't have near the speed or quickness. Linval lined up in front of his man put two hands on his chest and pushed until he saw the quarterback.
How is Robert Quinn doing 16 tackles 1 sack
Coming into this season, Robert Quinn had 29.5 sacks in 32 games over the past two seasons. JPP had 8.5 in 27 games in that same timespan.
Sample size.
Its not enough to be a really good run stopper. He has to affect the game as a pass rusher, that's what gets the money.
That being said, I'm not worried if they let anyone on that defense walk. I think they need some kind of overhaul, whether it's a new coordinator or just some new blood.
Defensive ends are the second most important position behind quarterback to this organization.
No chance the Giants let him walk. The Giants will use the franchise tag as leverage if necessary to bring his demands down closer to their price. He will eventually accept the long term guaranteed money as he won't play another year on a 1 year contract knowing first hand how injuries have effected him.
A healthy JPP is a great football player, the Giants know this and will not let the second best player on their team walk at 25 years old. This is the type of player we would die to have more of to build around. Young, homegrown, premium position, and more athletically gifted than most in the league at his position.
Its a great discussion and makes for a good article for the media but I'm 99% confident how this will end, and it will be the right move for all.
His QB pressure % (sacks, hits, hurries) was higher in 2012 than 2011. The big difference was the number of pass rushes. He had 700+ in 2011. 200 less in 2012. The QB pressure % was higher in 2012.
Only 2013 season had problems and he was injured. He is clearly back on track. At 25, he's one of the best in the NFL right now.
He's an excellent pass rusher who has stepped up vs the best OT in the division. He owns Trent Williams and Smith from Dallas. The performance on Sunday wasn't even his best vs Smith. He has dominated this elite LT in the past.
Just a few weeks back Smith kicked the shit out of Quinn from STL. This week JPP handled Smith once again. He got QB pressure. He consistently controlled him on runs to his side and he blew past him on runs to the other side to make plays. Complete domination and this was against what some call the best OT in the NFL.
But we have people looking for holes by knocking the guy's very strong 2012 season for sack numbers and the 2013 season when the player was injured.
He still has some things to work on but the player out there right now is an elite 2 way DE.
He had 3 tremendous games against Atl, Hou & Was but had zero sacks to show for it.
He has had consistent pressure on the QB except for the Eagles game.
Do people watch the games and see what he does or just care about sack numbers
The article does laud him for his pass rush but also explains he is among the absolute worst pass rushers at converting pressure into sacks. He also is mentioned as being a great inside pass rusher but not nearly as good as an outside pass rusher.
JPP can still be a physical freak that can bring pressure at times. I among others feel that he hasn't developed fully. I don't know his pressure stats for this year so I could be wrong on the true effect he is having.
I personally wouldn't want to see him get Mario Williams or JJ Watt type of money right now from the Giants.
JPP PFF - ( New Window )
We'll know what's going to happen before free agency starts, either the Giants resign him or he's gone.
The cap should approach 140-150 million within a few years so, unless QB's start getting 35-40 million a year, teams should be able to afford $12 million dollar a year players. Especially with this new CBA and so many vets signing for few dollars and short contracts.
He averages half a sack a game over his career.
If he was among the best at generating pressure but among the worst for sack totals what kind of conclusion would you expect people to draw?
Plus, the constant injuries.
kidding - but, ya never know what the Raiders are thinking.
Secondly, I think you're pretty well overrating his game last Sunday. He did fine work against the run, but as usual his pass rush was sporadic. "Domination" is what Connor Barwin (goddamn, I still can't believe that guy ruined us) did to Justin Pugh.
It's time for these hard decisions.....The front office thought we were just a few players away.....by the end of the season will they still feel the same way?
There is no way the Giants will offer Rolle, in the neighborhood of 7M.....so how much of a paycut will he accept? What is his ceiling on the open market? Are there safeties to be had out there for much less?
Yes Rolle is a solid safety....we have no others at this point in time.....but Rolle is not worth 7M next year......JPP, Rolle, Thurmond, S. Brown, JW, Paysinger, Hyno, Demps, JJ, Brewer, Patterson, C. Brown, Jerry, Bowman,
Fells, Donnell, just to name a few, are free agents next year.....at the end of the season, who do you keep, and at what price? In some cases, if they go out on the open market, that decision is out of your hands.....yes, that list has a lot of guys that can be easily replaced, but how good will the replacements be?
But more importantly, what direction, is this team going? A rebuild or another band aid season?
One thing that I know is inaccurate with stats is TFL. I have tracked this for JPP. His listed TFL stats are lower than the actual number.
The bottom line is, I think he is a very good DE who is excellent against the run. But, after more than a few seasons in the league he hasn't seemed to learned and adapted enough to be considered an elite DE. that is mostly his inability to consistently get to the QB.
Ideally, the giants are able to keep him at a very reasonable price. I would be fine with this. However, I think he is going to demand top 5 money, like those listed earlier in this thread. I think someone looking to add 1 piece to a young and already talented D will pay him in that neighborhood. However, I don't think that team should be the Giants with so much money already committed to Manning and who can easily be extended to create cap space. The problem is without JPP this D will be far worse. I'd certainly like to concentrate on other areas in the draft that are bigger needs.
His last series was exceptional. He made 3 sick plays vs the run. One TFL, 2 more hits in the backfeild on running plats. One of them Murray picked up a half a yard. These were all first down plays. He put us in 2nd and longs. 2 of the runs were to the other side. Watch it again. He goes past Smith like he was Brandon Myers.
On the slant to Bryant on the last series he made a strong inside rush and then bounced outside. Smith held him behind the shoulders and threw him to the ground. It should have been a hold.
The same thing happened on the 2nd Escobar TD. He pulled away from Smith who grabbed him behind the shoulder and threw him down.
He saved a TD on the hit to Romo when Bryant beat Prince.
He had 2 sacks.
What else do you need?
The same is true For Trent Williams in WAS. He's a top OT, right? JPP kicks that guys ass every game. He plays the game on the WAS side all day long.
don't know how you could watch the cowboy game and say that.
I'm looking at what he has done when healthy and it's exceptional. And he's doing it again right now. He's 25. If he's healthy the Giants should give him very big money.
I'm looking at what he has done when healthy and it's exceptional. And he's doing it again right now. He's 25. If he's healthy the Giants should give him very big money.
You are throwing out a period where he played hurt because it doesn't fit your narrative. Most players play hurt and are rarely if ever 100%. So in this year in 7 games (healthy as he will ever be) he has 3.5 sacks and has disappeared for the first half of the Falcons game, the entire Eagles game and his pass rush IMO has been sporadic in the other games.
I am open to being wrong on the amount of pressure he has been putting this year but I still don't see a player worth a 100 million dollar contract.
It's time for these hard decisions.....The front office thought we were just a few players away.....by the end of the season will they still feel the same way?
There is no way the Giants will offer Rolle, in the neighborhood of 7M.....so how much of a paycut will he accept? What is his ceiling on the open market? Are there safeties to be had out there for much less?
Yes Rolle is a solid safety....we have no others at this point in time.....but Rolle is not worth 7M next year......JPP, Rolle, Thurmond, S. Brown, JW, Paysinger, Hyno, Demps, JJ, Brewer, Patterson, C. Brown, Jerry, Bowman,
Fells, Donnell, just to name a few, are free agents next year.....at the end of the season, who do you keep, and at what price? In some cases, if they go out on the open market, that decision is out of your hands.....yes, that list has a lot of guys that can be easily replaced, but how good will the replacements be?
But more importantly, what direction, is this team going? A rebuild or another band aid season?
I think Rolle is the most important FA on this list. He's the heart and soul of the defense. And he has started every single game for the Giants since 2010, and rarely missed time in his career for injuries, so he's been durable as well.
Still, having said all that, he'll be 32 in December, so the issue to me isn't so much the annual dollar amount as the length of the contract.
don't know how you could watch the cowboy game and say that.
Yes, he actually used a few other moves against Dallas. It's a very rare occurance.
The Giants are going to have more money than they did last year to spend in FA and that's before Eli Manning should sign an extension to lower his 2015 cap number.
JPP is dominant against the run. He had two sacks this past Sunday against what many call the best OL in football. What more do people want from this guy?
Yeah, he doesn't have the gaudy sack numbers. But he is one of the best 4-3 defensive ends in football.
With a rising cap, it's inexcusable to be afraid to pay this guy $10 mil plus a year.
The Giants are going to have more money than they did last year to spend in FA and that's before Eli Manning should sign an extension to lower his 2015 cap number.
JPP is dominant against the run. He had two sacks this past Sunday against what many call the best OL in football. What more do people want from this guy?
Yeah, he doesn't have the gaudy sack numbers. But he is one of the best 4-3 defensive ends in football.
With a rising cap, it's inexcusable to be afraid to pay this guy $10 mil plus a year.
Huh? The guy is 25 years old. What are you looking for teenage pass rusher?
Some people....