who else would you replace him with? There's not another FA that comes close to his talent and there's probably nobody even in the draft (just speculation). He is still one of the top DEs in the league. His sack numbers are down, but he could be a force with more help too. I think he has to stay. Otherwise the GIants will be completely starting over and that's not a good strategy IMO.
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Have to agree here. Fewel is over his head and has been ever since he was hired. But Coughlin likes him and so do the players. Just the way it is.
Would the Giants consider the Franchise tag of JPP? Â
Traditionally, the Giants have not used that designation (I believe Weatherford is the only player) but JPP may be the first player to really force their hand to use it.
The 2014 tag was $13.1M. Assuming a modest increase, let's say $14M, it would likely be cheaper than if his agents are looking for $15-16M/year and without the long term cap commitments if they aren't comfortable with a deal like that.
JPP is a frustrating player because I think we'd happily see them pay him a mega-DE contract if he was consistently playing at that level, but he only flashes.
He relies purely on strength and tries to bull rush almost every time. He has all the tools in the world to be on the same level as JJ Watt. The problem is he isn't anywhere near Watt's level. It is not a question of who you replace him with but rather are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player? As of now and based off the past I would rather let him walk or franchise tag him like some other poster mentioned. There is no denying that he is a monster against the run but against the pass I will go as far as to say he is average at best. He is at that stage of his career where you don't want to hear the word potential anymore.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
If JPP goes....who replaces him? The Giants have had little success with keeping guys they have drafted around for a multitude of reasons. Adding one more to that mix is a frightful prospect.
Also....JPP seems like he may be a risk to sign to a big contract. Will his motivation continue.
work ethic questions, but a monster player against the run and pass IMO. You do wonder though if his interest will wane if he gets an equally monster contract. Is he interested enough in football to want to play at a high level after he gets a ton of money? Or will the money dampen or even spoil his interest? With the kind of contract he'll want, you have to be sure that won't happen. And right now, I'm not sure. But I'm sure a lot of other teams would be willing to pay him what he wants. He's one of the best in the league at his position. The Giants will certainly try and resign him, but assuming he stays healthy, and his current numbers project over the rest of the season, I think it's 60/40 that he leaves. Reese puts a number on every player, and doesn't waiver much. He did for Cruz IIRC, but for the most part he stays close to his original estimate.
Need to rebuild the whole DL, save for Hankins, Moore, and possibly Bromley. Others are old(er), past their prime, or simply going to want more money than their worth.
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Why was he so utterly dominant in 2011 if Fewell didn't know how to use him?
Makes zero sense.
His pass rush technique hasn't improved enough. He's still outstanding against the run. He has the physical tools. It has little to do with how he's being deployed. The scheme isn't holding him back from rushing the passer on pass plays, he's just been inconsistent and needs to develop more of a repertoire.
Of an elite but not superstar de.
If u dony you are digging an even deeper hole. He's still young and is an elite talent and had produced this year again. If he wants watt money u say fck off. But there is absolutely zero reason why at te very least he should be franchised.
Develop Moore and get a dt that gets a push and the sack numbers will go up again,
He's gone. Some team with major cap space will shell out a massive contract for him.
Agree completely. We will be outbid. The Giants always set a price and stick to it, and JPP doesn't strike me as a hometown discount kind of guy (not that I blame him). Our defensive line is becoming a big issue.
Year after year we hear how excited Fewell is with the Â
this DL without JPP this year....what a freakin' nightmare!
But, you can't break the bank for this guy......if I have a knock against this guy, it's consistency....we've seen just one year of 2011......and look who he had playing with him...injured in 2012....also in 2013....he's made us hold our breaths a couple times this season....you make a fair offer......that's all you can do....
Very good player - don't think he's great, not sure he's worth top-5 money, and I wouldn't break the bank on him based on whispers about his work ethic and his health concerns.
But if we could re-sign him for about the 6th-10th DE in the league money, then I'd be all for it. Replacing him isn't going to be easy.
But I'd be slightly wary giving him big money because I worry that he's the type of guy who might just be good with getting paid. He does already have a ring. Does he really want to be great or is he content just cashing his check?
I don't know the answer.
I'd hate to lose him but I don't know if we can afford to clog up too much of our cap on him.
Re-sign him - and you hope he plays up to his contract. I'd be just as concerned his health doesn't hold up as he mails it in.
Don't re-sign him - and you're either filling the position in FA (where there are no guarantees and the salary cap commitment isn't going to be much better), or you're going the draft route (which is an even bigger crapshoot).
This is where it would be nice to know what we have in Moore before we made our decision on JPP.
The work ethic may not be there and he's had some significant injuries. He hasn't gotten better than his first two years when he had so many other studs on the line. But I marvel at how he plays the run and for sure he's a force against the pass too. He's a formerly dominant player at one of, if not the, key defensive positions. And he may have a lot of big years left in him. So if I had to make a decision today, I would probably have to sign him because there's really nothing better.
Like some of you, I wonder if our entire defense would be better with a new D-co.
He just came off his best game of the year and you guys are ready to move on, hysterical!!! He should be moved to the left side and Moore should play RDE. Kiwi should be moved to the bench.
Most people want to continue to just look at sacks and nothing else. He is putting on the same amount of pressure he did in 2011. He has hit the QB every game and caused penalties, early throws, etc except Philly.
He seemed to use something other than a bull rush a number of times against Smith.
Look at the play where Prince was beaten deep, JPP got to Romo and forced the throw early. Goes as nothing in the stat book for him, but saved a TD
He just came off his best game of the year and you guys are ready to move on, hysterical!!! He should be moved to the left side and Moore should play RDE. Kiwi should be moved to the bench.
Well, I'm not "ready to move on" - but if someone comes by and decides to offer JPP JJ Watt money, do you match it?
Not that I think that's very likely, but there's a good chance someone's willing to throw a ton of money at JPP. That's where the decision becomes a bit more complicated than 'well, who else do we have?'.
But whenever you're going to need to commit a large amount of money to a certain player, you have to give it careful consideration and make sure it's the right move if you're going to do it. If there was no cap, it would be a no brainer. But this is a team sport and you don't want to get caught tying too many of your cap dollars up in just a couple of players unless you're sure they're worth it.
JPP has a load of talent and the tools to be great.. but there are legitimate question marks and reasons to have pause.
i would not be comfortable making a commitment to JPP. I don't think we can base a decision on what we pay him based on who else is on the roster. One thing when making a money decision has nothing to do with the other.
If we can get him on a fair deal, fine. But no way near $12M, I'd rather lose JPP and spread the money around the roster.
Fill the roster w often injured middle tier vets then a 25 year old coming into his prime DE. He also didn't get credit for a sack he did have in the ATL game. So if he has 9 sacks don't give him 12 million but if he gets 12 he should.
He's one of about 5 guys on the team with actual all pro talent. Maybe on of 3. Unless it's insane or his back goes again IMO he's a must resign.
You don't win w lots of mediocre players. That generally what Reese signs in FA with the exception of DRC. I shudder to think what an actual innovative DC might do with him.
At this point the Giants have to be considering extending JPP. The only other decent edge rusher on the roster is Moore and he is getting very little time. I guess they could hope to draft a quality end next year and pick up a B level FA DE instead. But JPP is actually playing very well. Imagine if we had pressure from inside and the other side a little more. The Giants have made it to super bowls when they have several pass rushers on this team. I was hopeful that Moore would earn a starting spot and Kiwi And Ayers would be the depth and 3rd down NASCAR package. I wouldn't give him JJ Watt money but he would get paid top 15 DE $. He is young and he is turning into a leader. Extend him while he is under contract.
RE: Year after year we hear how excited Fewell is with the Â
At this point the Giants have to be considering extending JPP. The only other decent edge rusher on the roster is Moore and he is getting very little time. I guess they could hope to draft a quality end next year and pick up a B level FA DE instead. But JPP is actually playing very well. Imagine if we had pressure from inside and the other side a little more. The Giants have made it to super bowls when they have several pass rushers on this team. I was hopeful that Moore would earn a starting spot and Kiwi And Ayers would be the depth and 3rd down NASCAR package. I wouldn't give him JJ Watt money but he would get paid top 15 DE $. He is young and he is turning into a leader. Extend him while he is under contract.
Every time we do this, we lose. JPP is good, not great. Don't tell me again "we just had to pay him -- we had nothing else." That is, pay the man, but not too much and not for too long. If he balks, give him up.
That doesn't mean you don't pay this player big money. Giants won't let him walk. He's 25 and playing great ball.
They will sign him to a 5-6 year deal and give him $50+ million guaranteed.
If he signs for that number the Giants could afford both JPP and Suh. He's already making roughly 4 million so that would only be 10 million per year (a 6 million dollar raise).
The Giants appear to be 13 million under the cap for next season if the cap does not increase. Of course, Rolle is coming off the books. A few cuts like Walton and Kiwi saves some cash.
Looking forward however, the Giants cap number is very favorable for 2016 even if Eli resigns for the same number (approx 20 per year).
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Have to agree here. Fewel is over his head and has been ever since he was hired. But Coughlin likes him and so do the players. Just the way it is.
Typical BBI. When professionals who live, breathe and eat this stuff every day don't do what seems self evident to unenlightened and ignorant amateurs, question the professionals.
but wherever you stand on it there are two big questions to consider. The obvious one is how will JPP react to being paid? The Giants obviously have a better sense of that internally better than any of us.
Another, more interesting question is whether the DE position is worth investing that much money in at all. JJ Watt isn't keeping the Texans defense from being pretty crappy.
But who was the big defensive end on Seattle last year?
It may be wiser to spread the resources around rather than keeping so many salary cap eggs in one basket...and that concept might apply to every position on the field.
He went to JAX.. their line hasn't been as good this year. He's not necessarily just because of him. I think they replaced him with Avril who was there last year but played some LB and was a rotational guy.. they move their guys around a lot on that front 7 so it's hard to tell.
He relies purely on strength and tries to bull rush almost every time. He has all the tools in the world to be on the same level as JJ Watt. The problem is he isn't anywhere near Watt's level. It is not a question of who you replace him with but rather are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player? As of now and based off the past I would rather let him walk or franchise tag him like some other poster mentioned. There is no denying that he is a monster against the run but against the pass I will go as far as to say he is average at best. He is at that stage of his career where you don't want to hear the word potential anymore.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
I like your point, but there are other points to consider than "are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player." For instance: are we a better team without JPP? Probably not, Kiwi is meh, Ayers is meh, and we don't know enough about Moore. If we loose JPP we have to replace him, but if we sign JPP and is always hit or miss then we are screwed as well.
Unless Berhe turns out to be legit, I don't know who we're going to put back there next year. Demps and Brown shouldn't even be options. Neither are any good.
He relies purely on strength and tries to bull rush almost every time. He has all the tools in the world to be on the same level as JJ Watt. The problem is he isn't anywhere near Watt's level. It is not a question of who you replace him with but rather are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player? As of now and based off the past I would rather let him walk or franchise tag him like some other poster mentioned. There is no denying that he is a monster against the run but against the pass I will go as far as to say he is average at best. He is at that stage of his career where you don't want to hear the word potential anymore.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
I like your point, but there are other points to consider than "are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player." For instance: are we a better team without JPP? Probably not, Kiwi is meh, Ayers is meh, and we don't know enough about Moore. If we loose JPP we have to replace him, but if we sign JPP and is always hit or miss then we are screwed as well.
Tough call. Glad I don't have to decide.
Part of what makes Watt great is that he can play all over the line, and gets matchups where he can surprise a guy because he's only playing him for 15 snaps.
For whatever reasons, we are so boring on our defensive line that JPP lines up against the LT 95% of the time. It's stupid and infuriating that JPP can't on 3rd and long get to match up vs a RG and let Ayers/Kiwi/Moore be the sacrificial lamb to go 1on1 vs the LT.
"one dumb owner" theory, someone will blow our offer out of the water. Daniel Snyder perhaps? Orakpo's days may be numbered there. It's about as tough a decision as I can remember the Giants making. Pro Bowl player at a position the organization values, and still a young guy. When Cano was a free agent, I was kind of hoping someone would overpay and take him. I feel the same about JPP.
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
The 2014 tag was $13.1M. Assuming a modest increase, let's say $14M, it would likely be cheaper than if his agents are looking for $15-16M/year and without the long term cap commitments if they aren't comfortable with a deal like that.
JPP is a frustrating player because I think we'd happily see them pay him a mega-DE contract if he was consistently playing at that level, but he only flashes.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
That being said I think they wait until later this season and work out a long term deal.
If he wants more, LET HIM WALK.
Beside Eli Manning and maybe one or two other guys (who I can't really think of at the moment)...
...NO ONE IS INDISPENSABLE TO THIS TEAM.
Neither JPP or anyone else is really that good to demand big bucks.
Also....JPP seems like he may be a risk to sign to a big contract. Will his motivation continue.
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Why was he so utterly dominant in 2011 if Fewell didn't know how to use him?
Makes zero sense.
His pass rush technique hasn't improved enough. He's still outstanding against the run. He has the physical tools. It has little to do with how he's being deployed. The scheme isn't holding him back from rushing the passer on pass plays, he's just been inconsistent and needs to develop more of a repertoire.
If u dony you are digging an even deeper hole. He's still young and is an elite talent and had produced this year again. If he wants watt money u say fck off. But there is absolutely zero reason why at te very least he should be franchised.
Develop Moore and get a dt that gets a push and the sack numbers will go up again,
Agree completely. We will be outbid. The Giants always set a price and stick to it, and JPP doesn't strike me as a hometown discount kind of guy (not that I blame him). Our defensive line is becoming a big issue.
But, you can't break the bank for this guy......if I have a knock against this guy, it's consistency....we've seen just one year of 2011......and look who he had playing with him...injured in 2012....also in 2013....he's made us hold our breaths a couple times this season....you make a fair offer......that's all you can do....
But if we could re-sign him for about the 6th-10th DE in the league money, then I'd be all for it. Replacing him isn't going to be easy.
I don't know the answer.
I'd hate to lose him but I don't know if we can afford to clog up too much of our cap on him.
Don't re-sign him - and you're either filling the position in FA (where there are no guarantees and the salary cap commitment isn't going to be much better), or you're going the draft route (which is an even bigger crapshoot).
This is where it would be nice to know what we have in Moore before we made our decision on JPP.
Like some of you, I wonder if our entire defense would be better with a new D-co.
He seemed to use something other than a bull rush a number of times against Smith.
Look at the play where Prince was beaten deep, JPP got to Romo and forced the throw early. Goes as nothing in the stat book for him, but saved a TD
You pay him
Well, I'm not "ready to move on" - but if someone comes by and decides to offer JPP JJ Watt money, do you match it?
Not that I think that's very likely, but there's a good chance someone's willing to throw a ton of money at JPP. That's where the decision becomes a bit more complicated than 'well, who else do we have?'.
JPP has a load of talent and the tools to be great.. but there are legitimate question marks and reasons to have pause.
If we can get him on a fair deal, fine. But no way near $12M, I'd rather lose JPP and spread the money around the roster.
He's one of about 5 guys on the team with actual all pro talent. Maybe on of 3. Unless it's insane or his back goes again IMO he's a must resign.
You don't win w lots of mediocre players. That generally what Reese signs in FA with the exception of DRC. I shudder to think what an actual innovative DC might do with him.
Yup
Every time we do this, we lose. JPP is good, not great. Don't tell me again "we just had to pay him -- we had nothing else." That is, pay the man, but not too much and not for too long. If he balks, give him up.
They will sign him to a 5-6 year deal and give him $50+ million guaranteed.
They will sign him to a 5-6 year deal and give him $50+ million guaranteed.
If he signs for that number the Giants could afford both JPP and Suh. He's already making roughly 4 million so that would only be 10 million per year (a 6 million dollar raise).
The Giants appear to be 13 million under the cap for next season if the cap does not increase. Of course, Rolle is coming off the books. A few cuts like Walton and Kiwi saves some cash.
Looking forward however, the Giants cap number is very favorable for 2016 even if Eli resigns for the same number (approx 20 per year).
Quote:
that if the Giants had a creative DC who could put JPP in
multiple positions and use him to get the most favorable match-ups that he would be a super star. No question, one of the best DE's in the league.
His physical gifts are amazing. Fewell just doesn't know how to use him.
Have to agree here. Fewel is over his head and has been ever since he was hired. But Coughlin likes him and so do the players. Just the way it is.
Another, more interesting question is whether the DE position is worth investing that much money in at all. JJ Watt isn't keeping the Texans defense from being pretty crappy.
But who was the big defensive end on Seattle last year?
It may be wiser to spread the resources around rather than keeping so many salary cap eggs in one basket...and that concept might apply to every position on the field.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
I like your point, but there are other points to consider than "are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player." For instance: are we a better team without JPP? Probably not, Kiwi is meh, Ayers is meh, and we don't know enough about Moore. If we loose JPP we have to replace him, but if we sign JPP and is always hit or miss then we are screwed as well.
Tough call. Glad I don't have to decide.
Let Rolle walk
Cut Kiwi
Cut Jenkins
Cut Beason
Unless Berhe turns out to be legit, I don't know who we're going to put back there next year. Demps and Brown shouldn't even be options. Neither are any good.
Quote:
He relies purely on strength and tries to bull rush almost every time. He has all the tools in the world to be on the same level as JJ Watt. The problem is he isn't anywhere near Watt's level. It is not a question of who you replace him with but rather are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player? As of now and based off the past I would rather let him walk or franchise tag him like some other poster mentioned. There is no denying that he is a monster against the run but against the pass I will go as far as to say he is average at best. He is at that stage of his career where you don't want to hear the word potential anymore.
Finally, it has been hinted numerous times over the last couple of years that he doesn't have a great work ethic. We hear stories about him being over weight. We hear stories about him not watching much film. We have stories written about him where he saw Cousins staring down his receivers. Why is an NFL player getting credit for noticing a QB stares down receivers? That is high school stuff. It is because he hasn't done this in the past and is just now starting to realize some basic stuff. That's not enough, imo.
Disclaimer: I am saying this as a fan with limited knowledge of the situation. I can only go by my eyes and what I read/hear.
I like your point, but there are other points to consider than "are we a better team with JPP being our second highest paid player." For instance: are we a better team without JPP? Probably not, Kiwi is meh, Ayers is meh, and we don't know enough about Moore. If we loose JPP we have to replace him, but if we sign JPP and is always hit or miss then we are screwed as well.
Tough call. Glad I don't have to decide.
Part of what makes Watt great is that he can play all over the line, and gets matchups where he can surprise a guy because he's only playing him for 15 snaps.
For whatever reasons, we are so boring on our defensive line that JPP lines up against the LT 95% of the time. It's stupid and infuriating that JPP can't on 3rd and long get to match up vs a RG and let Ayers/Kiwi/Moore be the sacrificial lamb to go 1on1 vs the LT.