Unless Berhe turns out to be legit, I don't know who we're going to put back there next year. Demps and Brown shouldn't even be options. Neither are any good.
Rolle's a decent player. He's probably a replacement levelish player.
The problem is that you don't pay guys 7m to be league average at a position that needs to make plays.
Let's see what his numbers are after the season. Amazing physical gifts. Not too cerebral . I think he will be a force the rest of the year and it will be no question , and will be resigned. We need a new DC coach him up
on both sides. JPP has been battling well documented issues with his back. When he started feeling better last year you saw him flash the same pursuit and relentlessness until he ended up getting hurt again. There's also been the chatter about his work ethic, we forget that he came from USF (and also just picked up football fairly late in his life) which wasn't a big time program, there's going to be an adjustment period. IMO you have to pay him. I'm certainly no draftnik, but the chances are pretty good that we won't get a DE close to the same caliber, and the options available in FA will probably be older castaways. I don't see him as a shitbag that will just mail it in once he signs a deal.
I think he'll make more per year. If he keeps playing like he has this year, he'll get $45-55 million guaranteed and make more on top of that. It will be more than 10 mill/year. Closer to 14-15. That's what's waiting for him in FA.
Charles Johnson signed in 2011 for an avg of 12.6 over 6 years with 32 mill guaranteed. JPP will get more.
Robert Quinn signed for 41 mill guaranteed. Avg salary $14.2/mill year. And he had 2 years left on his rookie deal and they still gave him 41 million GUARANTEED.
Players like JPP are very hard to find. He's getting paid big time.
I think he'll make more per year. If he keeps playing like he has this year, he'll get $45-55 million guaranteed and make more on top of that. It will be more than 10 mill/year. Closer to 14-15. That's what's waiting for him in FA.
Charles Johnson signed in 2011 for an avg of 12.6 over 6 years with 32 mill guaranteed. JPP will get more.
Robert Quinn signed for 41 mill guaranteed. Avg salary $14.2/mill year. And he had 2 years left on his rookie deal and they still gave him 41 million GUARANTEED.
Players like JPP are very hard to find. He's getting paid big time.
excellent analysis.
I have no idea why our defense is so vanilla. JPP needs to be utilized like Watt, Ware, Miller, etc. Those guys play all over the line and find their best matchup. JPP needs that kind of treatment. Throw Moore to the wolves by letting him line up vs Tyron Smith and let JPP abuse another OL.
We're so vanilla on defense it hurts. Do we ever disguise a damn thing? When was the last time you saw us disguise something?
When we line up in cover 2, we stay there.
When we line up in press, we stay there
When we show blitz, we blitz.
it's maddening.
So prettymuch everyone acknowleges JPP isn't very bright,
but at the same time wants Fewell to move him all around multiple positions like he's got the mentality of Justin Tuck?
Okay....
People seriously underestimate what Antrel Rolle brings to the plate. The guy remains our best back seven D player this year, and he's a team leader and the brains of the D back field.
Maybe the Giants think his physical skills are diminishing, but I don't see it yet.
I don't think it would be totally out of the realm for some top 3-4 defenses to pursue him if he's only good for $7-9 mill. per season range due to a "poor" showing of sexy stats this season.
He has very excellent 3-4 DE characteristics, and I can only imagine how sick a certain defense would have with him on the line.
My initial reaction is that he isn't worth top 5 DE money
And that paying him that much will not be the best way to build the team. But if you credit PFF, he is currently the 2nd rated 4-3 DE in the NFL.
Physically, he is definitely a top 5 DE, but he doesn't inspire like other great Giants from the past. If I knew he would play with the effort he has so far this season - I would say he needs to be re-upped. But I don't trust that he will. Also, despite the fact that he has played an insane number of snaps, that he is lying on the turf so often makes me nervous at that price tag.
If he continues like this - he will get top 5 DE money and the Giants will have a very difficult decision. Regardless, they will have all the information to make the right decision.
Very tough call. Great athlete, but is he really a great football
player? A guy who wrecks games? Who dominates every week? I don't think he has shown that. On the other hand, who else do they have? A lot of $$ will go into this for a guy who doesn't even require double teaming on many occasions depending on the opposition.
This is when I'm glad to be just an opinionated fan and not the GM. :-)
It's popped up enough to warrant asking, luckily the team will know enough on that front. But, I'm concerned they'll pay him because it's easier than letting go and trying to reload the position.
If they can get it done and keep his cap hit around $10M, they'll probably pull the trigger. Something in the 5/50-60 range is feasible, but contracts like the one given to Charles Johnson are potential wrenches in the machine.
but wherever you stand on it there are two big questions to consider. The obvious one is how will JPP react to being paid? The Giants obviously have a better sense of that internally better than any of us.
Another, more interesting question is whether the DE position is worth investing that much money in at all. JJ Watt isn't keeping the Texans defense from being pretty crappy.
But who was the big defensive end on Seattle last year?
It may be wiser to spread the resources around rather than keeping so many salary cap eggs in one basket...and that concept might apply to every position on the field.
I would put my resources elsewhere if the demand is anywhere near Watt money..JPP of 2011, yes. Present JPP(who is playing well), no..
pay him like a star, not a superstar. I think if you pay him anything over 10 or 11 million a year, even if the cap goes up significantly, the negatives start outweighing the positives. At 10 million, if he will take it, it is fair deal for us.
If JPP wasn't on this team and its not like we are going to find a bargain on a great DE. You have to pay or use a draft pick, and there is 90% chance that the DE we draft won't be anywhere near JPP in production... Just look at what 6M cost us by letting Linval go.. Our run defense was a bright spot last year probably the best part of our team... now we suck..but we saved like 6M in cap.. You can't keep creating holes in your team and expect to rebuild...
In some respects, JPP is playing as well now as 2011
he's just not generating the sacks. But, his overall play for the most part has been high level stuff.
Let's not overrate Linval, the run defense was spotty a year ago, and Hankins is a better player to boot. The point you're trying to make is legit, but Linval's not a stellar example to support it.
framework - dug up some recent big 43 DE contracts
That's negotiating from a big assumption, a point of weakness when you actually write the paychecks. I wouldn't utilize the polar opposite perspective as a tactic, as that tends to backfire.
I don't care how good he is against the run - the DEs who get the bigtime contracts get to the QB, because that is a much rarer skill than stopping the run. DEs who can play the run well but can't generate a lot of heat on the QB are pretty much a dime a dozen. No, it's not easy to find one as good at it as JPP, but you sure can get a lot more bang for the buck from that pool.
I'd like to see JPP stay because there's still a chance that he finally learns some pass-rushing technique and becomes a complete, elite DE, but I'm not sure how much I'd like to see the Giants pay for that lottery ticket.
RE: You don't pay DEs who aren't elite pass-rushers top dollar
I don't care how good he is against the run - the DEs who get the bigtime contracts get to the QB, because that is a much rarer skill than stopping the run. DEs who can play the run well but can't generate a lot of heat on the QB are pretty much a dime a dozen. No, it's not easy to find one as good at it as JPP, but you sure can get a lot more bang for the buck from that pool.
I'd like to see JPP stay because there's still a chance that he finally learns some pass-rushing technique and becomes a complete, elite DE, but I'm not sure how much I'd like to see the Giants pay for that lottery ticket.
it seems clear to me JPP's not performing like an elite pass rusher, but that logic suggests he's not a $15-16M per season player. Reasonable suggestion, imo. But, if he continues to play well and finishes this season strong, a team will pay him $12M+ per and I'd be ok giving it to him.
But, he's generating considerably more pressure this season and affecting games. Many NYG fans feel this defense is loaded with talent, but it's simply not the case, JPP and Hankins aren't getting a ton of help up front.
I do share the concern regarding his work ethic, and the fact this is a contract year for him.
And when he faces off against a tackle he can simply physically overpower and manhandle, he does so. Problem is that there are a lot of tackles in the league who just stone him, and at that point he pretty much just stands there and looks to bat down a pass.
His athleticism and strength allow him to manhandle and blow past blockers but not consistently. In the Eagles game there was a play where Brent Celek put JPP to his knees on a pass rush. As a run defender he is probably the best in the league at his position. But he is not an elite pass rusher, not even close. He hasn't developed or changed anything since he got into the league in that regard. Going by production and play he is a lot more like Justin Smith than he is JJ Watt.
He has applied pressure against the QB in every game but Philly. Just because sack numbers do not show up does not mean he is not pass rushing.
How is Robert Quinn doing 16 tackles 1 sack
C. Johnson 14 tackles 3 sacks 1 PD
So many of these DE's do not generate pressure but get sacks
We have argued on this board about Linjo vs Cofield and pass rush ability. Linjo had more sacks in less games in 4 years as a Giant than Cofield, but most thought Cofield was a superior pass rusher.
We have argued on this board about Linjo vs Cofield and pass rush ability. Linjo had more sacks in less games in 4 years as a Giant than Cofield, but most thought Cofield was a superior pass rusher.
You do not win by letting top talent leave at 25
I always thought of Cofield as more of a nose tackle. Linval's pass rush is much like JPP's but he doesn't have near the speed or quickness. Linval lined up in front of his man put two hands on his chest and pushed until he saw the quarterback.
then I want to see him produce at a high level. Giants are salivating for him to be dominant, just so they can win and they can lock him up to a justified contract.
Its not enough to be a really good run stopper. He has to affect the game as a pass rusher, that's what gets the money.
That being said, I'm not worried if they let anyone on that defense walk. I think they need some kind of overhaul, whether it's a new coordinator or just some new blood.
Giant stud defensive end in their prime the Giant let walk?
Defensive ends are the second most important position behind quarterback to this organization.
No chance the Giants let him walk. The Giants will use the franchise tag as leverage if necessary to bring his demands down closer to their price. He will eventually accept the long term guaranteed money as he won't play another year on a 1 year contract knowing first hand how injuries have effected him.
A healthy JPP is a great football player, the Giants know this and will not let the second best player on their team walk at 25 years old. This is the type of player we would die to have more of to build around. Young, homegrown, premium position, and more athletically gifted than most in the league at his position.
Its a great discussion and makes for a good article for the media but I'm 99% confident how this will end, and it will be the right move for all.
People here continue to overrate the sack numbers.
His QB pressure % (sacks, hits, hurries) was higher in 2012 than 2011. The big difference was the number of pass rushes. He had 700+ in 2011. 200 less in 2012. The QB pressure % was higher in 2012.
Only 2013 season had problems and he was injured. He is clearly back on track. At 25, he's one of the best in the NFL right now.
He's an excellent pass rusher who has stepped up vs the best OT in the division. He owns Trent Williams and Smith from Dallas. The performance on Sunday wasn't even his best vs Smith. He has dominated this elite LT in the past.
Just a few weeks back Smith kicked the shit out of Quinn from STL. This week JPP handled Smith once again. He got QB pressure. He consistently controlled him on runs to his side and he blew past him on runs to the other side to make plays. Complete domination and this was against what some call the best OT in the NFL.
But we have people looking for holes by knocking the guy's very strong 2012 season for sack numbers and the 2013 season when the player was injured.
He still has some things to work on but the player out there right now is an elite 2 way DE.
He hit the Cardinals QB repeatedly, He caused Fitzpatrick to throw INT's, he was unblockable the 2nd half of the Falcons game, he pressured Cousins into int's, he had 2 sacks, forced an early throw where the defender was beat, drew 2 penalties, all against a top LT. Oh he is also playing the run better than any other DE.
He had 3 tremendous games against Atl, Hou & Was but had zero sacks to show for it.
He has had consistent pressure on the QB except for the Eagles game.
Do people watch the games and see what he does or just care about sack numbers
I assume this is what you are talking about.
The article does laud him for his pass rush but also explains he is among the absolute worst pass rushers at converting pressure into sacks. He also is mentioned as being a great inside pass rusher but not nearly as good as an outside pass rusher.
JPP can still be a physical freak that can bring pressure at times. I among others feel that he hasn't developed fully. I don't know his pressure stats for this year so I could be wrong on the true effect he is having.
I personally wouldn't want to see him get Mario Williams or JJ Watt type of money right now from the Giants. JPP PFF - ( New Window )
We're in too dire a situation with our personnel in other areas to spend heavily enough on JPP to keep him. Some Jags or other bottom third team will pay out the a$$ to get him. We've got the balance of this year and another offseason to get Moore ready for primetime. Ayers can stay on the other side and be effective. For depth, we'll need a couple of FA's and of course a draft pick. Kiwi is toast. But don't overspend on JPP. He's not the leader we need him to be, he's inconsistent at the point of attack, and he's apt to be injured more than most.
The cap should approach 140-150 million within a few years so, unless QB's start getting 35-40 million a year, teams should be able to afford $12 million dollar a year players. Especially with this new CBA and so many vets signing for few dollars and short contracts.
Unless Berhe turns out to be legit, I don't know who we're going to put back there next year. Demps and Brown shouldn't even be options. Neither are any good.
Rolle's a decent player. He's probably a replacement levelish player.
The problem is that you don't pay guys 7m to be league average at a position that needs to make plays.
He's a legitimately good safety. You don't find guys like him just floating around in free agency every year.
Charles Johnson signed in 2011 for an avg of 12.6 over 6 years with 32 mill guaranteed. JPP will get more.
Robert Quinn signed for 41 mill guaranteed. Avg salary $14.2/mill year. And he had 2 years left on his rookie deal and they still gave him 41 million GUARANTEED.
Players like JPP are very hard to find. He's getting paid big time.
Charles Johnson signed in 2011 for an avg of 12.6 over 6 years with 32 mill guaranteed. JPP will get more.
Robert Quinn signed for 41 mill guaranteed. Avg salary $14.2/mill year. And he had 2 years left on his rookie deal and they still gave him 41 million GUARANTEED.
Players like JPP are very hard to find. He's getting paid big time.
excellent analysis.
I have no idea why our defense is so vanilla. JPP needs to be utilized like Watt, Ware, Miller, etc. Those guys play all over the line and find their best matchup. JPP needs that kind of treatment. Throw Moore to the wolves by letting him line up vs Tyron Smith and let JPP abuse another OL.
We're so vanilla on defense it hurts. Do we ever disguise a damn thing? When was the last time you saw us disguise something?
When we line up in cover 2, we stay there.
When we line up in press, we stay there
When we show blitz, we blitz.
it's maddening.
Okay....
People seriously underestimate what Antrel Rolle brings to the plate. The guy remains our best back seven D player this year, and he's a team leader and the brains of the D back field.
Maybe the Giants think his physical skills are diminishing, but I don't see it yet.
Is a team with a few stars and a few holes better than a team with solid starters and good depth at every position?
It's paying him to his likely production level.
I don't think it would be totally out of the realm for some top 3-4 defenses to pursue him if he's only good for $7-9 mill. per season range due to a "poor" showing of sexy stats this season.
He has very excellent 3-4 DE characteristics, and I can only imagine how sick a certain defense would have with him on the line.
Physically, he is definitely a top 5 DE, but he doesn't inspire like other great Giants from the past. If I knew he would play with the effort he has so far this season - I would say he needs to be re-upped. But I don't trust that he will. Also, despite the fact that he has played an insane number of snaps, that he is lying on the turf so often makes me nervous at that price tag.
If he continues like this - he will get top 5 DE money and the Giants will have a very difficult decision. Regardless, they will have all the information to make the right decision.
This is when I'm glad to be just an opinionated fan and not the GM. :-)
If they can get it done and keep his cap hit around $10M, they'll probably pull the trigger. Something in the 5/50-60 range is feasible, but contracts like the one given to Charles Johnson are potential wrenches in the machine.
Another, more interesting question is whether the DE position is worth investing that much money in at all. JJ Watt isn't keeping the Texans defense from being pretty crappy.
But who was the big defensive end on Seattle last year?
It may be wiser to spread the resources around rather than keeping so many salary cap eggs in one basket...and that concept might apply to every position on the field.
I would put my resources elsewhere if the demand is anywhere near Watt money..JPP of 2011, yes. Present JPP(who is playing well), no..
Let's not overrate Linval, the run defense was spotty a year ago, and Hankins is a better player to boot. The point you're trying to make is legit, but Linval's not a stellar example to support it.
8 years, $108.88M, $51.8M guaranteed
Everson Griffen (Vikings):
5 years, $42.5M, $19.8M guaranteed
Michael Johnson (Bucs):
5 years, $43.75M, $24M guaranteed
Chris Long (Rams):
5 years, $60.31M, $36.76M guaranteed
Julius Peppers (Bears):
6 years, $91.5M, $42M guaranteed
---------
Average starting point on JPP Contract:
6 years, $70M, $35M guaranteed
I would give him that in a heartbeat, will be interesting to see if he pushes for "Watt money"
if we they do that, the next offer is in the 5-year, $40M, $25M guaranteed range
do we take into account the Hall of Fame-type talent when doing his numbers?
I'd like to see JPP stay because there's still a chance that he finally learns some pass-rushing technique and becomes a complete, elite DE, but I'm not sure how much I'd like to see the Giants pay for that lottery ticket.
I'd like to see JPP stay because there's still a chance that he finally learns some pass-rushing technique and becomes a complete, elite DE, but I'm not sure how much I'd like to see the Giants pay for that lottery ticket.
Well reasoned imo
I do share the concern regarding his work ethic, and the fact this is a contract year for him.
If Fewell wants to play that game, fine, but the organization can't pay top dollar for DE's if he 's not going get the QB.
The Giants are ranked 19th in sacks and the line has been pretty healthy up until last week.
He hasn't really developed many pass rush moves.
How is Robert Quinn doing 16 tackles 1 sack
C. Johnson 14 tackles 3 sacks 1 PD
So many of these DE's do not generate pressure but get sacks
We have argued on this board about Linjo vs Cofield and pass rush ability. Linjo had more sacks in less games in 4 years as a Giant than Cofield, but most thought Cofield was a superior pass rusher.
You do not win by letting top talent leave at 25
We have argued on this board about Linjo vs Cofield and pass rush ability. Linjo had more sacks in less games in 4 years as a Giant than Cofield, but most thought Cofield was a superior pass rusher.
You do not win by letting top talent leave at 25
I always thought of Cofield as more of a nose tackle. Linval's pass rush is much like JPP's but he doesn't have near the speed or quickness. Linval lined up in front of his man put two hands on his chest and pushed until he saw the quarterback.
How is Robert Quinn doing 16 tackles 1 sack
Coming into this season, Robert Quinn had 29.5 sacks in 32 games over the past two seasons. JPP had 8.5 in 27 games in that same timespan.
Sample size.
Its not enough to be a really good run stopper. He has to affect the game as a pass rusher, that's what gets the money.
That being said, I'm not worried if they let anyone on that defense walk. I think they need some kind of overhaul, whether it's a new coordinator or just some new blood.
Defensive ends are the second most important position behind quarterback to this organization.
No chance the Giants let him walk. The Giants will use the franchise tag as leverage if necessary to bring his demands down closer to their price. He will eventually accept the long term guaranteed money as he won't play another year on a 1 year contract knowing first hand how injuries have effected him.
A healthy JPP is a great football player, the Giants know this and will not let the second best player on their team walk at 25 years old. This is the type of player we would die to have more of to build around. Young, homegrown, premium position, and more athletically gifted than most in the league at his position.
Its a great discussion and makes for a good article for the media but I'm 99% confident how this will end, and it will be the right move for all.
His QB pressure % (sacks, hits, hurries) was higher in 2012 than 2011. The big difference was the number of pass rushes. He had 700+ in 2011. 200 less in 2012. The QB pressure % was higher in 2012.
Only 2013 season had problems and he was injured. He is clearly back on track. At 25, he's one of the best in the NFL right now.
He's an excellent pass rusher who has stepped up vs the best OT in the division. He owns Trent Williams and Smith from Dallas. The performance on Sunday wasn't even his best vs Smith. He has dominated this elite LT in the past.
Just a few weeks back Smith kicked the shit out of Quinn from STL. This week JPP handled Smith once again. He got QB pressure. He consistently controlled him on runs to his side and he blew past him on runs to the other side to make plays. Complete domination and this was against what some call the best OT in the NFL.
But we have people looking for holes by knocking the guy's very strong 2012 season for sack numbers and the 2013 season when the player was injured.
He still has some things to work on but the player out there right now is an elite 2 way DE.
He had 3 tremendous games against Atl, Hou & Was but had zero sacks to show for it.
He has had consistent pressure on the QB except for the Eagles game.
Do people watch the games and see what he does or just care about sack numbers
The article does laud him for his pass rush but also explains he is among the absolute worst pass rushers at converting pressure into sacks. He also is mentioned as being a great inside pass rusher but not nearly as good as an outside pass rusher.
JPP can still be a physical freak that can bring pressure at times. I among others feel that he hasn't developed fully. I don't know his pressure stats for this year so I could be wrong on the true effect he is having.
I personally wouldn't want to see him get Mario Williams or JJ Watt type of money right now from the Giants.
JPP PFF - ( New Window )
We'll know what's going to happen before free agency starts, either the Giants resign him or he's gone.
The cap should approach 140-150 million within a few years so, unless QB's start getting 35-40 million a year, teams should be able to afford $12 million dollar a year players. Especially with this new CBA and so many vets signing for few dollars and short contracts.