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Bye Week Assessment

Sy'56 : 10/22/2014 12:05 pm
Hey guys-

I don't get to post here as much during the season as I would like. Just too much going on with the draft prep, scouting...etc and I only have some much time to give to football. I do get to read here often though, For the past few years I've tried to give some thougt on the direction of the team during the bye week.

I think it is foolish for fans to come on here after a win or loss and start barking out their thoughts as if they were set in stone. Fans have a fascination with trying to come up with the thoguht of what a team really is, or how good a player/coach is...rather than sitting back for a year (or more) to see things play out. A few weeks ago, Larry Donnell was the best TE that NYG has had since Shockey, Richburg was going to make the All-Rookie Team, and the NYG linebackers were no longer a personnel issue. Fast forward to now and things already look different. 7 weeks in, here are my thoughts on where this team is, and where they can be down the road.

OL is NOT a strength

Honestly, the bar has been lowered, by a lot, if we think this NYG offensive line is no longer a liability. Justin Pugh has hit a bit of a sophomore slump if you will, although I wouldn't call him a weakness. He is what I thought he'd be...a solid but unspectacular RT. Guys like that are fine, but they will have more than a couple bad games every year, which he's had already. He remains to be a guy I won' make personnel decisions around....if there is a RT in FA or the draft that could upgrade that position, I show no hesitation in moving him to guard. He would be fine in there and the level of play at RT can be higher.

Weston Richburg was probably thrown in to the action a year, or at least a half year, too early as a result of the Schwartz injury. He's done a fine job considering he was a prospect that needed strength/power work. I think his best future resides at center, his college position. He moves REALLY well and he is a smart guy that makes late adjustments like a veteran. He's exceeded my expectations.

Will Beatty has been playing solid football. I respect that guys over at PFT solely for the effort they put in to their work, but he isn't the best LT in football. He's not on the same level as Peters, Okung...etc. But I will say, he has shut me up so fae this year. If he can stay healthy AND at his current level of play, NYG won't need to worry about LT for a few years.

What does NYG have at WR and TE?

The obvious: Odell Beckham is a keeper and Reuben Randle has done enough to deserve a starting spot in this offense for the next couple of years. Both have done an admirable job. I am very intrigued to see what Beckham can do with this opportunity with Cruz being out. I remember noting his obvious athletic ability...but what I loved most, and currently love the most, is the approach he has to the game. He plays hard, he plays intense. He isn't big but he is a physical guy. He is a true football player, NYG needs more of him.

The questions: NYG needs to find out what they have in Corey Washington. He is raw and he is likely having issues with the playbook, otherwise he would be out there. But he is a unique athlete that brings something to the table that no other WRs on this team can. Size and one on one ball skills. This guy can be an asset to Manning over the next 8-9 weeks, he deserves a shot. Larry Donnell has always been the guy in their TE group that caught my eye, based solely on athleticism and ball skills. He has some goods but he has been exposed a few times already this year. His blocking is poor, thus his role in this offense will be limited. And those fumbles....man. That can't happen. NYG needs to find out if he is an athlete or a football player. If he isn't the latter, they NEED to upgrade that spot this upcoming offseason.

Another year, another disappointing LB group

I haven't seen a personnel group struggle for quality year after year in the league. Even the bottom of the barrel teams like OAK and JAC have been able to upgrade their major weaknesses over the years. The NYG linebackers as a group have been some of the worst in the league for so long. Devon Kennard] has shown some life and I think he can be a player. But lets not forget, he's had a laundry list of injuries in his past. Hopefully he can stay on the field. I love the attitude that Jameel McClain shows, but he is a role player at best. The number one focus this offseason needs to be at this position. I don't buy that talk that their roles are not that important in this era of the NFL. It's not true at all.

Does NYG have a bright future at DL?

I love the way Jason Pierre-Paul has been playing. The stat sheet isn't blowing up, but his impact is consistently there. That back looks fully healed and I wouldn't be surprised to see him get 10+ sacks from here on out. Jonathan Hankins was another 2nd round pick I didn't like, but he has been great this year. His ability to impact the inside run, whether it be occupying space/blockers or making plays on the ball carrier, is a welcomed sight. Who has had a single thought about the departed Linval Joseph? Thats a nice job by him.

The question that NEEDS to be answered revolves around DaMontre Moore. This guy has serious talent and he plays hard. There are issues with his power presence and while that is concerning, I think he can help this team more than what the coaches believe. He needs more playing time. If NYG can get more pressure off the opposite edge of Pierre-Paul, it will mean a lot for this entire defense.

All in all, there are quality guys along that front. But at the same time, there are 3-4 names that can be easily replaced in the offseason. I think this should be a main focus in FA or the draft. You can never have enough....well we know that already.

Defensive Backs are solid, but who is here to stay?

EVERY team in the NFL has struggles in the secondary. If you only watch your team play and the occasional national TV game, you won't understand how hard is to put together a quality, deep, and versatile-enough secondary in this era of the NFL. Dominique Rogers-Cromartie has been as good as advertised and is likely giving NYG the best CB play they've had in a long time. He's done this before though...played really well early in a tenure, just to disappoint a year or two down the road. I have a glass half full approach with him, but he needs to get that hip healthy.

Jayron Hosley is all but done here in my opinion. He isn't a good football player, plain and simple. He hasn't made plays here and he continues to show that he is slow to react, playing with minimal awareness. The corners that stick around (Zack Bowman) for example...may not be the best athletes in the world but they are reliable from a diagnosis perspective. They understand the game, they sees things happen before they actually occur. Hosley looks lost when you really put the eyeball on him.

The safeties are another concern, and I can't help but think they will target one early in the draft next spring. Quentin Demps might be the worst player on this defense, he needs to get off the field. Stevie Brown has never been highly regarded in my eyes, and Antrel Rolle, despite playing at a high level right now, won't be around much longer. This could be a MAJOR void as soon as next season. Something to keep an eye on.

-I don't want to spend too much time discussing coaching and/or the front office. Those guys shouldn't be evaluated as much until AFTER the season is over. But I will say this:

I am getting sick of NYG putting a laughable performance 3-4 separate times each season. I understand the nature of the NFL season is a roller coaster. But quality teams don't get blown out every month in a year. They don't combine very low level offense, defense, and special teams play all at once multiple times in a season. There is a trend with this team that has to make you consider the coaching. I won't say Coughlin needs to be fired. But shuffling through coordinators/schemes may not be enough. NYG has been middle of the pack for too long.

The other half of that fact needs to examine the front office. I have been critical of the draft approach we've seen in recent years, but I do understand it could be a lot worse. Reese/Ross are not bad decision makers. They've been good enough to put out a competitive team every year but similar to a lot of players NYG has, I think the upside is really limited. They shouldn't be deciding when their tenure is over here....I hope some pressure has been put on them. The consistent holes at LB and OL are borderline unacceptable at this point.

All in all guys, NYG is in the thick of things 7 weeks in. We couldn't say that last year. They are not on the same level as Dallas right now, nor are they on the same level as other NFC Championship hopefuls. But a lot has changed in the past when looking at post bye-weeks.

Let's discuss!
Good post  
Sec 103 : 10/22/2014 12:16 pm : link
Thanks Sy
you are right about the safety position  
hitdog42 : 10/22/2014 12:19 pm : link
I think its been a bigger issue then LB this year... and that says a lot.

Would love to see Richburg getting his early reps at C... the answer is not what is there now and its hurt us the last few weeks.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/22/2014 12:23 pm : link
Good post, Sy..

I wish more people would understand this point:

Quote:
EVERY team in the NFL has struggles in the secondary. If you only watch your team play and the occasional national TV game, you won't understand how hard is to put together a quality, deep, and versatile-enough secondary in this era of the NFL


Because it's entirely true and based on a lot of "I'm losing interest in the NFL and only watch the Giants" posts than seem to be an increasing theme around here, I just can't help but think people have unrealistic expectations and are not recognizing that some issues are not unique to the Giants.
Nice post.  
bceagle05 : 10/22/2014 12:30 pm : link
Lot of work to be done in the trenches. OL is still a big problem, and the DL needs work in order to have a fighting chance against the Eagles and Cowboys monster OLs.

Assuming we have the 7-9 year we're all expecting, my only joy will come from watching Manning and Beckham develop more chemistry. They've been fun to watch so far.
Good stuff, Sy  
JonC : 10/22/2014 12:35 pm : link
It's clear the personnel issues remain among the usual suspect units. It's still very early, but the 2015 draft strengths might line up to provide us with help in the first two rounds at DE and WR.
All this means nothing...  
silverfox : 10/22/2014 12:44 pm : link
...if we literally throw away 3-4 games every year (get freaking blown out). That has got to stop, and if that means giving all some coaches a one way ticket out of town...fine, but in this league you can't forfeit 3-4 games a year...and yes we are forfeiting these games because they don't even show up when that happens. We will get blown out at least 2 more games this season. This has been going on for too many years, and it doesn't matter how many new guys we bring in...it continues year after year.
Regarding safety and along the lines of seeing what  
jgambrosio : 10/22/2014 12:46 pm : link
Corey Washington and Damontre can bring to the table, after what we've seen with Demps and Brown, why not see what Berhe can do out there? He seemed, at least in his limited youtube videos, have a good nose for the ball and on-field instincts. I'd like to see if that can work with the speed of the NFL.
He specifically addressed that.  
vibe4giants : 10/22/2014 12:48 pm : link
Quote:
I am getting sick of NYG putting a laughable performance 3-4 separate times each season. I understand the nature of the NFL season is a roller coaster. But quality teams don't get blown out every month in a year. They don't combine very low level offense, defense, and special teams play all at once multiple times in a season. There is a trend with this team that has to make you consider the coaching. I won't say Coughlin needs to be fired. But shuffling through coordinators/schemes may not be enough. NYG has been middle of the pack for too long.
Great stuff - thanks as always  
4thand17 : 10/22/2014 12:50 pm : link
In trying to find bright spots so far this year, I've noticed by my untrained eye that Beatty has played well. IMO that is very important, because then maybe we are only one good player away in addition to Beatty, Richburg, Schwartz, and Pugh from completing an OL rebuild (assuming Schwartz performs reasonably well upon his return). I suppose that 5th player could be a C, OG or OT, depending upon whether Richburg moves to Center or Pugh gets moved inside.
After seeing the defense play with and without  
Go Terps : 10/22/2014 12:51 pm : link
a healthy Beason, I'm sold on the importance of the linebacker (particularly MIKE) position. Gotta find someone for that spot.

Let's see what  
Randy in CT : 10/22/2014 12:52 pm : link
Kennard has...
I don't know if he can still play,  
Go Terps : 10/22/2014 12:53 pm : link
but Brandon Spikes is set to hit FA after the season. For a little while there weren't many more violent players in the league.
Good post as always Sy.  
Victor in CT : 10/22/2014 12:56 pm : link
I am on the same page with you.
thanks Sy  
micky : 10/22/2014 12:57 pm : link
S, OL, Lb, and DL need addressed. But, still, like this past offseason, is one offseason going to put a somewhat dent into squaring things off? I think no. Still feel to address these issues fully will take another few off seasons or so. There's likely still going to be a few stop-gaps (ie like a Bowmans' and etc)in here down the line as well. Added to that, the questions of what's happening with the coaching staff and their futures. A lot of question marks
Great post Sy  
sjnyfan : 10/22/2014 1:00 pm : link
I would say right now pre Free Agency our biggest need is safety. 3 of the 4 on the current active roster are FA's after the season with Rolle the only one really worth considering bringing back and he of course is on the wrong side of 30. If Landon Collins comes out that would be a great get although I think the season would have to go pretty miserably for that to happen.

LB would be next. You nailed it on the head here. I'd really like to get Shaq Thompson, Eric Kendricks or both. It's not like we couldn't use both of them.

I'm glad the starting OL are signed through next year (including Schwartz) with 3 of 5 to 2018 but depth is needed here. This looks like a good year for OL so far which is a good thing.

If/when we go DL I'd prefer it be DT. Jenkins and Patterson are over the hill, Kuhn has been very serviceable, especially as an advanced age 7th rounder but isn't a starter or a future cornerstone. I think Bromley's peak is as a rotational/situational guy. Of course this changes some if by some stroke of genius/faith we land Suh.

One position I think we can't forget come draft time is a dual threat RB. Losing Jennings hurts more than I think some realize. Williams runs hard but isn't making anyone miss and worst than that every team already knows he's not a threat to catch the ball out of the backfield. This type of offense needs a pass catching RB. All of the leagues top offenses have one.
Great post...  
trueblueinpw : 10/22/2014 1:01 pm : link
I understand why you would reserve judgment on McAdoo. But these other coaches have been around long enough to grade here at almost halfway point of the season.

For me, Fewell is obviously a liability. Mostly around here people who defend PF point to a lack of talent and injuries. The D was bolstered in the off season, especially the backfield. Yet still, while there have been injuries, the defense disappoints in the big spots.
I really hate Will Hill  
BlueHurricane : 10/22/2014 1:02 pm : link
He could have made a weakness a strength if he would have just been half of a decent human being.
Excuse me,  
Doomster : 10/22/2014 1:03 pm : link
but wasn't this all said before the season started?
I spend a lot of time defending Reese and Ross  
jcn56 : 10/22/2014 1:06 pm : link
but OL and LB are a problem for them, without a doubt. My problem with the OL goes beyond the FO though and down to the coaching staff. It seems that we can't develop a serviceable OL out of anyone we get, and that's a problem that has to go beyond drafting. Even if you suck, you're bound to get at least one right at some point, and that doesn't seem to be happening.
You can pretty much forget an early LB draft pick  
JonC : 10/22/2014 1:08 pm : link
I don't even think they'd pick a pass rushing OLB, unless he's a top 15 gamechanger, and they're going the way of the dodo.
RE: I spend a lot of time defending Reese and Ross  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/22/2014 1:13 pm : link
In comment 11935611 jcn56 said:
Quote:
but OL and LB are a problem for them, without a doubt. My problem with the OL goes beyond the FO though and down to the coaching staff. It seems that we can't develop a serviceable OL out of anyone we get, and that's a problem that has to go beyond drafting. Even if you suck, you're bound to get at least one right at some point, and that doesn't seem to be happening.


Well, that's not true at all. Kevin Boothe was a scrapheap pickup from the Raiders.

O'Hara was an undrafted player the Browns casted away.

Dave Diehl was, what, a 5th round guard? They developed into a Left Tackle well enough to win 2 championships with.

Nobody was complaining about Justin Pugh last season. He was on the All-Rookie team. He's playing injured now.

Richburg is playing better than a typical rookie.
i agree with all that you wrote  
GiantNatty : 10/22/2014 1:14 pm : link

though to me, the single biggest issue with this team is, and has been for some time now, the offensive line. since the second half of 2012, the oline's inability to play even consistently average football has been, by far, the biggest weakness of the team. it has negatively effected the entire operation. they can't sustain drives, they have to punt, and after repeating this cycle over and over, the defense finally breaks, which is as understandable as it is predictable.

and at this point in eli's career, it's almost criminal. he doesn't have many years left (and behind lines like these, you wonder if his career won't be unecessarily shortened).

i like pugh, but i don't see a first round draft pick playing right tackle. i see a guy who moves well, can mirror nicely, but has real trouble with assignments at times. and then he has some real clunkers where it looks like physically he's completely overmatched. that shouldn't be happening to a first rounder. i also think beatty is a serviceable player, but to me he grades better than he plays.

all of that said, i was telling someone recently that i think the giants line is, when looked at individually, athletic enough, and probably even strong enough, but they're not putting it all together. they are not playing like the five-man wall they should be. that points to preparation and coaching. can more playing time together make a difference? i hope so, but i have concluded that this line will never be dominant. i'd settle for smart and cohesive at this point...
That's a fair point  
jcn56 : 10/22/2014 1:17 pm : link
I should have been more clear - wasn't talking about our higher draft picks or FA acquisitions, more the Mosleys, Brewers, etc. that we've been drafting. That of course discounts the fact that they drafted Beatty, Pugh and Richburg and they've all been doing very well.

My bigger concern is that we can't draft and develop OL, even for backup spots, with anything beyond round 2.
RE: That's a fair point  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/22/2014 1:20 pm : link
In comment 11935636 jcn56 said:
Quote:
I should have been more clear - wasn't talking about our higher draft picks or FA acquisitions, more the Mosleys, Brewers, etc. that we've been drafting. That of course discounts the fact that they drafted Beatty, Pugh and Richburg and they've all been doing very well.

My bigger concern is that we can't draft and develop OL, even for backup spots, with anything beyond round 2.


That's fair.

Greg actually probably said it best in another thread. They had such great luck from 04-06 churning out great OL players that they may have fooled themselves into thinking they could take any stiff or project in the late rounds and make him a useful player.

Not that Mosley is a stiff. He did start at LT in the SEC at a major school in college. You would think he would've shown better than he has.
Thanks Sy  
FTLFan : 10/22/2014 1:22 pm : link
I agree with most most of what you say and VERY much appreciate the work you put into these posts (and fyi this is not in any way meant to be an argumentative post). Unlike many posters here, I just cannot fault Coughlin and Reese for building a team this year that, on paper, had no real "holes" but only a few question marks at the start of the season. Yeah, many of the parts were new, so they weren't 100% sure about RB, OL, WR, or TE (especially) on offense, and LB on the defensive side, but there were solid but unspectacular vets or improving young players they reasonably expected and hoped to perform at least at a serviceable level.

I know injuries are to be expected, and depth needs to be a necessity more than a luxury, but from my rosy glasses I was excited to see this year pan out because we had a ton new personnel and a lot of recent draft picks who seemed to be starting to "get it". Heck, I selected the Giants' defense in my only fantasy league b/c, based on last year's performance and the new pieces added, I thought there was NO way it could regress, yet somehow, due to a combination of injuries, Fewell's coaching philsosphy, execution and luck, it most certainly has. That's not to say they're terrible (yet), just not as good as I'd hoped or expected.

The O-line, while not great by any stretch, is still an improvement over last year, was expected to be a bit of a work in progress, and still has time to gel or improve further, especially if Schwartz' return provides any net benefit. My biggest source of confusin is Pugh's last two games. What changed? Is it his elbow issue? Also, I honestly feel like we struck out on our read of Walton. I just don't think he has it, and he's seemed to be the most consistent weak spot on the line over the last 7 weeks.

IMO - This year's injuries have completely sucked the mojo and coninuity from the squad. They're spending so much time shuffling roles and players to get the "best 11" on the field, how can they (the players) possibly feel sure of themselves? Who expected David Wilson to not even make it through one practice after being given the green light by the med-staff? Who thought Will Hill was gonna piss away his third chance, and that Cooper Taylor would get hurt immediately thereafter? If you look at the biggest of our off-season F/A pickups, it seems every SINGLE one (except for McClain and Ayers, and I don't really consider them the big ones) is or has been hurt (see Thurmond, DRC, Schwartz, Jennings, etc.). We lost both of our slot receivers to IR (one the pro-bowl centerpiece of our receiving corps), had to wait 5 weeks for our No. 1 draft pick to play a down, lost Jennings to a freak pile up knee injury that may not properly heal all season, and now our line has forgotten how to open the holes it did weeks 3-5 and our prommising rookie is either unable to create for himself or too afraid to stray from the called play to take advantage of the cutbacks that have been available.

...and Lastly, I'm absolutely SICK of hearing about "injury prone" players. Yes, a player can be concussion "prone" after the first one, but unless the same exact injury is recurring time after time (some guys have problematic hammies for sure), or a player is battling some sort of arthritic degeneration whch will always be a problem, the rest are freaking ACCIDENTS. Who here knew what a sesamoid bone was before this season? Beason hasn't reinjured his achilles or knee, he's "got a toe" now. It doesn't make him prone to the next one, just freakin' unlucky.

Not gonna mention "special" teams...

Sorry, this did turn into more of a rant than I intended, but the points are still there.
RE: RE: That's a fair point  
jcn56 : 10/22/2014 1:23 pm : link
In comment 11935642 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:


Not that Mosley is a stiff. He did start at LT in the SEC at a major school in college. You would think he would've shown better than he has.


And that's why I wonder about the coaching too. Some of the guys we drafted came highly touted out of college (I remember a number of people being stoked about Petrus). We haven't been able to turn one of these guys into a guy who can take a few snaps on the field and not get Eli killed.

On the LBs, it's a philosophy thing more than anything else, they just don't put a priority on the position and as such draft them late. I don't necessarily agree, but if you look at the majority of FA dollars and the way the past few drafts have gone, it doesn't seem like they're alone in that belief.
They won't move Pugh without a better player to deploy at RT  
JonC : 10/22/2014 1:29 pm : link
but every time I watch Pugh, he's smallish, with those short, stubby legs and is struggling with speed to the outside, double moves to the inside, etc. I see a player who is best suited to OG.
Pugh always reminded my of Seubert  
jlukes : 10/22/2014 1:31 pm : link
Wish we could throw him at LG for the next 12 years and be done with it
Thank you all especially Sy- This is what I love about BBI  
jjgmrg901 : 10/22/2014 2:01 pm : link
No stupid fire this, trade that, draft this guy.

Just good analysis and suggestions.

Thank you for a great read.

Oh, Have I mentioned?  
Johnny5 : 10/22/2014 2:22 pm : link
HOW UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY PISSED OFF I AM AT WILL HILL?

Wasn't sure if I had mentioned that yet.
For the past few years I've wanted them to  
Gman11 : 10/22/2014 2:35 pm : link
spend a high draft choice on a LB. Not a tweener. Not a project.

They keep drafting LBs in the 5th-7th rounds and you get what you pay for - a guy that will be decent on special teams and hopefully a decent reserve if you need him.
if true  
chris r : 10/22/2014 2:44 pm : link
this is a pretty bad pick at 19 last year

Quote:
Honestly, the bar has been lowered, by a lot, if we think this NYG offensive line is no longer a liability. Justin Pugh has hit a bit of a sophomore slump if you will, although I wouldn't call him a weakness. He is what I thought he'd be...a solid but unspectacular RT. Guys like that are fine, but they will have more than a couple bad games every year, which he's had already. He remains to be a guy I won' make personnel decisions around....if there is a RT in FA or the draft that could upgrade that position, I show no hesitation in moving him to guard. He would be fine in there and the level of play at RT can be higher.
RE: I spend a lot of time defending Reese and Ross  
santacruzom : 10/22/2014 3:10 pm : link
In comment 11935611 jcn56 said:
Quote:
but OL and LB are a problem for them, without a doubt. My problem with the OL goes beyond the FO though and down to the coaching staff.


You can at least argue that the Giants have tried to acquire offensive linemen who are widely considered to have talent and potential, in such a way that suggests they certainly value the position. I just don't think you can say the same about linebackers. It really does seem as though they simply don't value the entire position all that much, and as a result, it's an exploitable weakness.
RE: i agree with all that you wrote  
BrettNYG10 : 10/22/2014 3:14 pm : link
In comment 11935624 GiantNatty said:
Quote:

though to me, the single biggest issue with this team is, and has been for some time now, the offensive line. since the second half of 2012, the oline's inability to play even consistently average football has been, by far, the biggest weakness of the team. it has negatively effected the entire operation. they can't sustain drives, they have to punt, and after repeating this cycle over and over, the defense finally breaks, which is as understandable as it is predictable.

and at this point in eli's career, it's almost criminal. he doesn't have many years left (and behind lines like these, you wonder if his career won't be unecessarily shortened).

i like pugh, but i don't see a first round draft pick playing right tackle. i see a guy who moves well, can mirror nicely, but has real trouble with assignments at times. and then he has some real clunkers where it looks like physically he's completely overmatched. that shouldn't be happening to a first rounder. i also think beatty is a serviceable player, but to me he grades better than he plays.

all of that said, i was telling someone recently that i think the giants line is, when looked at individually, athletic enough, and probably even strong enough, but they're not putting it all together. they are not playing like the five-man wall they should be. that points to preparation and coaching. can more playing time together make a difference? i hope so, but i have concluded that this line will never be dominant. i'd settle for smart and cohesive at this point...


The OL was fucking awful in 2011 as well - and the signs were clear that we needed to address the OL at the end of the 2010 season. We tried with Baas, whose injuries caught up to him.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/22/2014 3:17 pm : link
I think it's pretty clear that Pugh has been at least somewhat limited by his elbow. He was our most solid, consistent lineman in year 1 as a rookie and did quite well. I think this is more physical and less of a sophomore slump type deal.

If you can draft an offensive lineman with versatility in rd 1 and he is able to step in right away and play well, he is 100% worth that draft pick.
the tactic of ignoring LB  
BigBlueCane : 10/22/2014 3:21 pm : link
even an impact LB early the draft has failed spectacularly for the team.

They NEED an impact LB and the draft is the best place to find one.

That's one of many tendencies Reese and Ross need to break.
RE: They won't move Pugh without a better player to deploy at RT  
BillKo : 10/22/2014 4:19 pm : link
In comment 11935670 JonC said:
Quote:
but every time I watch Pugh, he's smallish, with those short, stubby legs and is struggling with speed to the outside, double moves to the inside, etc. I see a player who is best suited to OG.


JonC.....yeah, I agree. Pugh just doesn't look the part of a RT in the NFL.

I think our biggest needs are still OL, LB, and safety in no particular order.

Then WR, a scat RB, and DL............
I am still on the  
AnishPatel : 10/22/2014 4:40 pm : link
fence regarding RR. He is still a young WR, but so far, he has been inconsistent. I am waiting for some sort of consistency to occur in his game.

The OL needs a big time upgrade and I still don't think we did a very good job with it. We still could use an upgrade at TE if available. I would also like a change of pace RB, someone with speed who can catch the ball. That's why it sucks to see Wilson retire. I was very much looking forward to seeing him in this system. I would have loved to see him on swing passes or check downs and see him run. Sad to see a young kid like him retiring because of injury.

I would like to see pressure put on Ross and Reese and see how they respond.
OLine has started to come back down to earth the past  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/22/2014 4:44 pm : link
couple of weeks. Beatty gets penalties at some of the worst times as humanly possible. Hate the guy.
RE: Thanks Sy  
RDJR : 10/22/2014 4:49 pm : link
In comment 11935655 FTLFan said:
Quote:
I agree with most most of what you say and VERY much appreciate the work you put into these posts (and fyi this is not in any way meant to be an argumentative post). Unlike many posters here, I just cannot fault Coughlin and Reese for building a team this year that, on paper, had no real "holes" but only a few question marks at the start of the season. Yeah, many of the parts were new, so they weren't 100% sure about RB, OL, WR, or TE (especially) on offense, and LB on the defensive side, but there were solid but unspectacular vets or improving young players they reasonably expected and hoped to perform at least at a serviceable level.

I know injuries are to be expected, and depth needs to be a necessity more than a luxury, but from my rosy glasses I was excited to see this year pan out because we had a ton new personnel and a lot of recent draft picks who seemed to be starting to "get it". Heck, I selected the Giants' defense in my only fantasy league b/c, based on last year's performance and the new pieces added, I thought there was NO way it could regress, yet somehow, due to a combination of injuries, Fewell's coaching philsosphy, execution and luck, it most certainly has. That's not to say they're terrible (yet), just not as good as I'd hoped or expected.

The O-line, while not great by any stretch, is still an improvement over last year, was expected to be a bit of a work in progress, and still has time to gel or improve further, especially if Schwartz' return provides any net benefit. My biggest source of confusin is Pugh's last two games. What changed? Is it his elbow issue? Also, I honestly feel like we struck out on our read of Walton. I just don't think he has it, and he's seemed to be the most consistent weak spot on the line over the last 7 weeks.

IMO - This year's injuries have completely sucked the mojo and coninuity from the squad. They're spending so much time shuffling roles and players to get the "best 11" on the field, how can they (the players) possibly feel sure of themselves? Who expected David Wilson to not even make it through one practice after being given the green light by the med-staff? Who thought Will Hill was gonna piss away his third chance, and that Cooper Taylor would get hurt immediately thereafter? If you look at the biggest of our off-season F/A pickups, it seems every SINGLE one (except for McClain and Ayers, and I don't really consider them the big ones) is or has been hurt (see Thurmond, DRC, Schwartz, Jennings, etc.). We lost both of our slot receivers to IR (one the pro-bowl centerpiece of our receiving corps), had to wait 5 weeks for our No. 1 draft pick to play a down, lost Jennings to a freak pile up knee injury that may not properly heal all season, and now our line has forgotten how to open the holes it did weeks 3-5 and our prommising rookie is either unable to create for himself or too afraid to stray from the called play to take advantage of the cutbacks that have been available.

...and Lastly, I'm absolutely SICK of hearing about "injury prone" players. Yes, a player can be concussion "prone" after the first one, but unless the same exact injury is recurring time after time (some guys have problematic hammies for sure), or a player is battling some sort of arthritic degeneration whch will always be a problem, the rest are freaking ACCIDENTS. Who here knew what a sesamoid bone was before this season? Beason hasn't reinjured his achilles or knee, he's "got a toe" now. It doesn't make him prone to the next one, just freakin' unlucky.

Not gonna mention "special" teams...

Sorry, this did turn into more of a rant than I intended, but the points are still there.


But injuries are a cancer. I heard that somewhere....
Good analysis ….  
Manny in CA : 10/22/2014 5:21 pm : link
What's wrong with Pugh ? - Same thing that was wrong with Beatty last year, low achieving guard next to him. (All of a sudden, Beatty is back to his 2012 form, why - Richburg). That's why it's VERY important that Schwartz come back healthy.

Anish, as far as the O-line, in general, I think that given what he had to work with, and the mess that started last year, I'm giving Reese a solid "B"

Sure, it would be nice to have an ALL PRO at tight end, but I think we have a very promising player in Donnell and a proven pro in Fells. In fact, instead of trying to scour the waiver wire for a replacement for Victor Cruz, I think a two tight end set could be "just what the doctor ordered" at this time.
RE: Good analysis ….  
Giantology : 10/22/2014 5:23 pm : link
In comment 11936013 Manny in CA said:
Quote:
What's wrong with Pugh ? - Same thing that was wrong with Beatty last year, low achieving guard next to him. (All of a sudden, Beatty is back to his 2012 form, why - Richburg). That's why it's VERY important that Schwartz come back healthy.

Anish, as far as the O-line, in general, I think that given what he had to work with, and the mess that started last year, I'm giving Reese a solid "B"

Sure, it would be nice to have an ALL PRO at tight end, but I think we have a very promising player in Donnell and a proven pro in Fells. In fact, instead of trying to scour the waiver wire for a replacement for Victor Cruz, I think a two tight end set could be "just what the doctor ordered" at this time.


Pugh also is playing hurt FYI
Manny,  
AnishPatel : 10/22/2014 5:59 pm : link
We need to hurry in the process of rebuilding the OL. This is Elis prime of his career. The coaching staff and Eli have 2 years left on their deals. We can't take 2-3 years rebuilding this up. There has to be a sense of urgency.

TE can use an upgrade. I think Donnells so far is in average player. He became known in the media because of the 3 TD game. Outside of that I wish we used him more throughout the game. I want to see what he can do in regular D/D throughout the field, not in the red zone.

good read  
DavidinBMNY : 10/22/2014 6:44 pm : link
Thanks Sy......
Angry at Hill,  
oldog : 10/22/2014 8:10 pm : link
did he pull a Hakeem Nicks and I missed it. Did he quit. Thought that was a management decision.
Anish, I think we're set ...  
Manny in CA : 10/22/2014 9:12 pm : link
In 4 out of the five O-line positions:

LT - Beatty has "rediscovered" himself

LG - Richburg looks solid, a real steal in the 2nd round

C - Journeyman Walton is there (but we've seen him get pushed around a bit this year, so we need somebody better)

RG - Schwartz has been hurt all year, after receiving a big dollar deal from the Giants.

RT - Pugh has struggled a bit (injury/playing next to journeyman guard Jerry), but is a solid player

It's really not doom and gloom at O-line

As far as Donnell, I've seen him make plays in the middle of the field, as well. He's basically a rookie. I think he's playing just as well as any of the young tight ends in the league. He's only going to get better

Great  
AcidTest : 10/22/2014 10:49 pm : link
stuff, and analysis from everyone. As far as Pugh is concerned, I agree with those who said that he is hurt, and whoever said that he would be better served by having Schwartz instead of Jerry next to him. Beatty's play has improved at least partially because Richburg is next to him at LG. Pugh looked good at times last year, and this season.
I have to disagree with your view on Randle  
giantgiantfan : 10/23/2014 12:40 am : link
I was a big supporter of his coming into this season, but he's just frustrating. When you say "Reuben Randle has done enough to deserve a starting spot in this offense for the next couple of years" what exactly has he done? He's just frustrating. I don't know that you bring him back for more than a low paying deal. Unfortunately in that scenario Coughlin is compelled to start him over a more talented option that may arise.

I agree on everything else. The linebacker position is a major WTF for every fan on this site. We finally tried addressing it with a retread and the tread falls off. I like McClain, but he's nothing spectacular and I have the same hopes everyone does for Kennard.

The Giants are go into next years draft able to pick the BPA across the board: OL, DE, WR, LB, CB, Safety, Running Back etc... Doesn't really matter we need immediate help or quality depth at every single one of those positions.
Manny,  
AnishPatel : 10/23/2014 9:33 am : link
I don't think that's a good OL, not with a 20 million QB in his prime. They can barely pass block and they suck at run blocking. We tried going with 3,5 and 7 passing concepts in the Eagles game and it was god awful. So, we went back to our usual WCO offense passing concepts this past game, which I was happy to see. Not sure why we deviated for the Eagles game. I understand their seconday could be had, but we failed to block them.

I think we can use an upgrade to the OL, especially if we want balance and even run more 5 and 7 step drops to go deeper to hit more home runs. Right now, we are methodical in moving the ball, but we aren't getting those chunk plays.
I believe that the Giants have 4 of the 5 starters they need on line  
Bob in Newburgh : 10/24/2014 11:19 am : link
They need a RT.

Pugh moves to LG where he will at least approach very good. Richburg moves to C with the same upside as Pugh. Schwartz plays RG.

This needs to be the plan going into next year. Perhaps Mosley is the RT. Certainly athletically he meets the standard, but has not done anything yet.
What killed us this year? Injuries  
SGMen : 10/25/2014 12:43 am : link
We had 9-7 talent IF we had stayed fairly healthy.

Will Hill really hurt us with his suspension and subsequent cut. Had that guy not smoked he'd have started game 1 and who knows maybe we at least beat AZ week 2 as Brown was torched.

Also, losing Cruz will hurt because if he was there now he'd be catching a lot more balls in the slot now that Beckham is showing well on the outside.

Lastly, losing Beason, our field general and run stopper, hurts too as he's barely played.

Teams have injuries but we really lost some key guys we could not afford to lose.
I really hope that Pugh turns out to be more than an average player  
PatersonPlank : 10/25/2014 11:45 am : link
We spent a #1 on him, and we need to him be a mainstay. I think we can build around Richburg, Pugh, and Schwartz. Beatty is fine, Walton just ok
i'm wondering what  
area junc : 10/25/2014 11:57 am : link
the reaction will be when we bench richburg and play schwartz at LG instead of benching jerry. can smell it coming a mile away
RE: i'm wondering what  
chris r : 10/25/2014 12:11 pm : link
In comment 11939492 area junc said:
Quote:
the reaction will be when we bench richburg and play schwartz at LG instead of benching jerry. can smell it coming a mile away


Please no.
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