I'm a big fan of Donnell, but I think Connor let him off a bit lightly there in terms of the impact of that one play. That was a critical play in the game.
I agree totally in regards to dropping D Lineman into coverage - I can't think of a time recently where that worked. Strahan got a pick one time years ago. You're doing the other team a favor by dropping guys like Jenkins and JPP into coverage. Both times we were burned badly. I can't phathom how TC looks at game film and keeps signing up for practicing and running that crap.
In terms on Donnell, I think the first fumble was in part him trying to stretch for the first down, which he was intially short of. An effort play that backfired. How about the Defense holding them to a FG attempt after that and doing their part?
I'm of the conclusion that coaching is more the issue with this defense than the personel. We are in contain mode most of the time, not attack mode.
you could just feel that Eli was going to march us down for the tie - then Donnell got stripped - and that was that. Does a better team over come this? Sure. That said he is an unexpected find and an important player for the Giants. With the key injuries and the poor line play, not for this year but the future
Nice work guys. Great point about Perry Fool by Eric.
When the players change and the results are the same, now 5 years in, the coach has to be held responsible. And I agree with all, the DL dropping into coverage is just plain stupid.
I can understand Fewells philosophy of flooding defenders into coverage to get turnovers... while I'm not a fan of it, I'm ok with that.
But dropping a useless D linemen into coverage is like playing with 10 defenders on the field. They end up covering nothing and there is no pressure on the QB.
Just take out the D-linemen, rush 3 and add an extra DB. Stop making it easy for the offense by dropping a friggin D-linemen into coverage.
of the game. The first Donnell fumble was the key play of the game and there is no reason to think the Giants could not have come down and tied it up on that drive. While turnovers are never acceptable, he was fighting for a much needed first down so perhaps he can learn from this.
It is also true that the same negative defensive trends noted in the review have continued for the past few seasons, even in the super bowl year. The D appears to have gone backwards from last year. This is disappointing as I thought the D could build on some of the success this year and become a top unit. This has clearly not happened and it probably never will with this coordinator and group of players. The Giants may need to blow up the D too and rebuild it.
..is all about throwing a curveball to the guys protecting, and getting rushers free, isn't it? If so, I don't understand why anybody supports their complaint with the fact that the dropper never makes a play.
If the guys on the overload side don't know how to blitz, does it really matter where they're coming from? Since nobody in the back 7 other than Rolle ever seems to close quickly and on a good angle, I agree, zone blitzes look to be a waste of time from a fan perspective.
I thought there would be more on how truly awful Demps was.
Bowman had good underneath coverage on Escobar's 2nd TD. Demps was a day late and a dollar short. On top of that, he seemed to miss a bunch of tackles.
Agree, but many of our worst defensive plays occur when we drop a lineman. It never seems to work - though perhaps I'm looking at the wrong plays.
I doubt that, seems like you watch every play at least 2x including live and for the game reviews. The problem is it hasn't worked since Kawika Mitchell was blitzing, which has probably made us all a little jaded.
I don't recall the Steelers having any recent success with it either since they have similar underachieving-personnel issues, and their DC practically invented the concept.
I was thinking about this and have no tape to help me answer my question. Just once, it would be so nice to see a 3 and out when the opposition is in their first possession. Against Dallas, we are 3 and out and they proceed to march right down the field for an opening score. In too many games in the last 2 to 3 years do I just wish our defence could get immediately off the field. Others game plan for our offence yet we seem incapable of doing the same to our opposition. I can not remember the last time that we closed the door on the opposition and played defence that at least gave a semblance to dictating the flow of the game. I just worry that we are becoming accustomed to this type of play and yearn for the days of a strong defensive presence.
Look at the one still photo - there are 8 Cowboys at the point of attack. The run blocking is going to continue to fail when there are that many defenders and the focus on the middle. There are not enough blockers
I agree totally in regards to dropping D Lineman into coverage - I can't think of a time recently where that worked. Strahan got a pick one time years ago. You're doing the other team a favor by dropping guys like Jenkins and JPP into coverage. Both times we were burned badly. I can't phathom how TC looks at game film and keeps signing up for practicing and running that crap.
In terms on Donnell, I think the first fumble was in part him trying to stretch for the first down, which he was intially short of. An effort play that backfired. How about the Defense holding them to a FG attempt after that and doing their part?
I'm of the conclusion that coaching is more the issue with this defense than the personel. We are in contain mode most of the time, not attack mode.
observational bias. Of course you don't see when we or any other team, yes, other teams do it too, works. And yes, there are times when it works.
RE: Nice work guys. Great point about Perry Fool by Eric.
When the players change and the results are the same, now 5 years in, the coach has to be held responsible. And I agree with all, the DL dropping into coverage is just plain stupid.
well, unless some of the players continue to suck, which they do. We don't have much depth.
..is all about throwing a curveball to the guys protecting, and getting rushers free, isn't it? If so, I don't understand why anybody supports their complaint with the fact that the dropper never makes a play.
If the guys on the overload side don't know how to blitz, does it really matter where they're coming from? Since nobody in the back 7 other than Rolle ever seems to close quickly and on a good angle, I agree, zone blitzes look to be a waste of time from a fan perspective.
and putting a defender in the shot zones. But don't tell that to the idiots here.
Look at the one still photo - there are 8 Cowboys at the point of attack. The run blocking is going to continue to fail when there are that many defenders and the focus on the middle. There are not enough blockers
don't you know that according to BBI, the opponent is irrelevant? Good post
was f#cked due to our complete inability to run outside. DAL clogged the A-and B gaps just like PHI did. they didnt even need an 8man box.
very rarely do u see an nfl team without enough speed to run outside but williams and hillis cant. thought it was a huge mistake not getting cox involved
RE: I agree Donnell isn't entirely to blame for the loss in
Seems our offense almost has to score on the opening drive because our defense usually allows the apposing offense to score first putting us in a hole right away...and what's worse, it usually takes 2-3 quarters for our defense to figure out what the hell is going on...and its usually over by then anyway.
Furthermore, if we are even lucky enough to pull close in the 4th quarter, the defense never seems to be able to close out a game by stopping anybody.
We keep screaming about our OL...but our defense frankly is an embarrassment especially when one considers how much money we spent on defense free agents. I'll say it again and again...Buffalo ran Fewell out of town for a reason...he is not a good DC in any way, shape, or form.
mainly because is was trying to stretch for the first down. If ball security is number one at the end of that play we are punting.
In regards to dropping lineman, yes it does work some times, just hasn't for us this year. Maybe Jenkins isn't that good in coverage, so why keep doing it??? He is after all a DT. I can think of two key third downs against Detroit, and two against Dallas just off the top of my head.
But, I think some are over-blowing it a bit. It was 3rd and 8 and he was trying to get the first down. Even if he doesn't fumble, they might have to punt on the next play. So, I'm not sure how people can say they know the Giants were going to drive and tie it up.
I complete agree with Eric about the first drive of the game. Given the injury to Jennings and where this team finds the most success, I simply don't understand how you come out and call three straight running plays like that. I understand wanting to establish the run, but that initial series was really discouraging as a fan watching. I imagine it was discouraging for the team as well.
I think there is some observational bias with DL in coverage.
But, it does seem like it hasn't been very successful for us.
There are a couple different things that come into play with this. There is the zone blitz, like Racer talks about. Where you drop a DL into coverage and send someone on a blitz to try to take advantage of the OL being prepared to block the DL that is not rushing. If you can confuse the blocking scheme you can get more pressure on the QB and still be able to drop 7 into coverage. You also can confuse the QB, who seeing a blitz may look to get rid of the ball quickly and not realize a DL is dropping into his throwing lane. We have seen success with this, though we have also been burned on it as well.
The other thing we see happening is not a zone blitz. It is the Giants defense simply rushing 3 instead of 4. This is what you see in the picture Eric posted about the 3rd-6 play. We seem to do this more than I would expect. I like this much less than the zone blitz, especially in a game where you are having trouble getting to the QB already. I guess the thinking is if you throw more people in coverage, the QB will have to hold the ball longer. Or, they expecting a quick slant, and are trying to drop the DL into the throwing lane. But, we really don't seem to have much success here.
It seems like a strategy the increases the risk looking for a big play, by putting a player in a position where he isn't expected. But, I've seen a lot more big plays for the offense, and not a lot of big plays for the defense on these plays.
with Fewells defense, is that the blitzes main objective on many plays, or at least how it appears to me, is to knock the OL off from the DL to allow THEM to get to the QB. Many times I see their blitzers make a bee line right for an OL instead of hitting the hole and getting after the QB. Now, I admittedly have no idea how often this is part of the design, but it's rather frustrating.
nice post - makes total sense. The 3rd and six with JPP in space really has a low chance of success and his a poor coaching decision. How others can think differently is a real head scratcher. Kind of like labeling Nassib a bust after one pre-season in Gilbride's old offense.
with Fewells defense, is that the blitzes main objective on many plays, or at least how it appears to me, is to knock the OL off from the DL to allow THEM to get to the QB. Many times I see their blitzers make a bee line right for an OL instead of hitting the hole and getting after the QB. Now, I admittedly have no idea how often this is part of the design, but it's rather frustrating.
I think the problem with his blitzes are that they're solely designed to send EXTRA rushers in hope that someone will defeat the one on one blocks and get to the QB. Rex Ryan blitzes, for examples, are designed to occupy OL in order to free 1 or 2 rushers.
... has as many fumbles in 7 games as David Wilson did in his entire career, yet Wilson ended up in Coughlin's doghouse and Coughlin hasn't made a peep about Donnell (besides his usual "We need to hang to the ball" bullshit).
doesn't put anywhere near enough pressure on the QB. Yes JPP played well but far short of any dominating performance so I wouldn't even give him a pass. And the rest of the DE and DTs have got to get off their asses at some point and provide a hurry and force a 3rd down incompletion.
At some point, even an average DE/DT should be able to free himself from a good blocker. Stop blaming Fewell...
In terms on Donnell, I think the first fumble was in part him trying to stretch for the first down, which he was intially short of. An effort play that backfired. How about the Defense holding them to a FG attempt after that and doing their part?
I'm of the conclusion that coaching is more the issue with this defense than the personel. We are in contain mode most of the time, not attack mode.
you could just feel that Eli was going to march us down for the tie
Good one.
I can understand Fewells philosophy of flooding defenders into coverage to get turnovers... while I'm not a fan of it, I'm ok with that.
But dropping a useless D linemen into coverage is like playing with 10 defenders on the field. They end up covering nothing and there is no pressure on the QB.
Just take out the D-linemen, rush 3 and add an extra DB. Stop making it easy for the offense by dropping a friggin D-linemen into coverage.
It is also true that the same negative defensive trends noted in the review have continued for the past few seasons, even in the super bowl year. The D appears to have gone backwards from last year. This is disappointing as I thought the D could build on some of the success this year and become a top unit. This has clearly not happened and it probably never will with this coordinator and group of players. The Giants may need to blow up the D too and rebuild it.
If the guys on the overload side don't know how to blitz, does it really matter where they're coming from? Since nobody in the back 7 other than Rolle ever seems to close quickly and on a good angle, I agree, zone blitzes look to be a waste of time from a fan perspective.
I doubt that, seems like you watch every play at least 2x including live and for the game reviews. The problem is it hasn't worked since Kawika Mitchell was blitzing, which has probably made us all a little jaded.
I don't recall the Steelers having any recent success with it either since they have similar underachieving-personnel issues, and their DC practically invented the concept.
In terms on Donnell, I think the first fumble was in part him trying to stretch for the first down, which he was intially short of. An effort play that backfired. How about the Defense holding them to a FG attempt after that and doing their part?
I'm of the conclusion that coaching is more the issue with this defense than the personel. We are in contain mode most of the time, not attack mode.
If the guys on the overload side don't know how to blitz, does it really matter where they're coming from? Since nobody in the back 7 other than Rolle ever seems to close quickly and on a good angle, I agree, zone blitzes look to be a waste of time from a fan perspective.
very rarely do u see an nfl team without enough speed to run outside but williams and hillis cant. thought it was a huge mistake not getting cox involved
that was the game. Donnell doesnt fumble you KNOW we go down and score to tie it.
Furthermore, if we are even lucky enough to pull close in the 4th quarter, the defense never seems to be able to close out a game by stopping anybody.
We keep screaming about our OL...but our defense frankly is an embarrassment especially when one considers how much money we spent on defense free agents. I'll say it again and again...Buffalo ran Fewell out of town for a reason...he is not a good DC in any way, shape, or form.
In regards to dropping lineman, yes it does work some times, just hasn't for us this year. Maybe Jenkins isn't that good in coverage, so why keep doing it??? He is after all a DT. I can think of two key third downs against Detroit, and two against Dallas just off the top of my head.
I complete agree with Eric about the first drive of the game. Given the injury to Jennings and where this team finds the most success, I simply don't understand how you come out and call three straight running plays like that. I understand wanting to establish the run, but that initial series was really discouraging as a fan watching. I imagine it was discouraging for the team as well.
There are a couple different things that come into play with this. There is the zone blitz, like Racer talks about. Where you drop a DL into coverage and send someone on a blitz to try to take advantage of the OL being prepared to block the DL that is not rushing. If you can confuse the blocking scheme you can get more pressure on the QB and still be able to drop 7 into coverage. You also can confuse the QB, who seeing a blitz may look to get rid of the ball quickly and not realize a DL is dropping into his throwing lane. We have seen success with this, though we have also been burned on it as well.
The other thing we see happening is not a zone blitz. It is the Giants defense simply rushing 3 instead of 4. This is what you see in the picture Eric posted about the 3rd-6 play. We seem to do this more than I would expect. I like this much less than the zone blitz, especially in a game where you are having trouble getting to the QB already. I guess the thinking is if you throw more people in coverage, the QB will have to hold the ball longer. Or, they expecting a quick slant, and are trying to drop the DL into the throwing lane. But, we really don't seem to have much success here.
It seems like a strategy the increases the risk looking for a big play, by putting a player in a position where he isn't expected. But, I've seen a lot more big plays for the offense, and not a lot of big plays for the defense on these plays.
I think the problem with his blitzes are that they're solely designed to send EXTRA rushers in hope that someone will defeat the one on one blocks and get to the QB. Rex Ryan blitzes, for examples, are designed to occupy OL in order to free 1 or 2 rushers.
At some point, even an average DE/DT should be able to free himself from a good blocker. Stop blaming Fewell...
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