(Reuters) - A nurse held in quarantine for Ebola monitoring in New Jersey plans to file a federal lawsuit challenging her confinement as a violation of her civil rights, her lawyer told Reuters on Sunday.
Norman Siegel, a well-known civil rights lawyer, said that Kaci Hickox's confinement after she returned from West Africa raised "serious constitutional and civil liberties issues," given that she remains asymptomatic and has not tested positive for Ebola."We're not going to dispute that the government has, under certain circumstances, the right to issue a quarantine," he said. "The policy is overly broad when applied to her.” |
i mean in the US, everyone might have a case but come on lady... its for your own good and for everyone else...
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She can sue on that. But she can't sue that the quarantine itself is unreasonable. Because it isn't.
One can argue taking basic entertainment choices away and pretty much forcing her to live in a bubble is not only excessive, but unacceptable.
Quarantine her in isolation with a temperature monitor on her - not some sort of thing reserved for aliens or people with auto-immune diseases.
And sorry, a 30% mortality rate when receiving advanced medical care is not trivial.
It's so difficult to choose the correct crisis to get hysterical over nowadays.
A quarantine is meant to check the spread of a disease, not the denial of creature comforts for the ease of the hazmat crew. Especially since she was doing something tremendously brave...
Part of the issue is to determine what constitutes a crisis. Is something that has a miniscule chance of affecting you or I a crisis worthy of causing a panic over?
I'm not minimizing Ebola - it should be treated like you would other infectious issues. I'm trying to avoid the hyperbole going on here like this is an imminent threat. Maybe we need CNN to talk more about how Ebola COULD go air-borne and then we'd all be fucked.
Sad to see BBI members give such rapid support for some loathsome pandering politicians. If anything, some here should be quarantined to hopefully contain the spread of stupidity.
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It's so difficult to choose the correct crisis to get hysterical over nowadays.
Part of the issue is to determine what constitutes a crisis. Is something that has a miniscule chance of affecting you or I a crisis worthy of causing a panic over?
I'm not minimizing Ebola - it should be treated like you would other infectious issues. I'm trying to avoid the hyperbole going on here like this is an imminent threat. Maybe we need CNN to talk more about how Ebola COULD go air-borne and then we'd all be fucked.
Imagine anti-biotic resistant black plague!
Because the plague is still readily available for a crisis, inhabiting the warrens of many underground animals in America!
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In comment 11941609 Giants11 said:
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it never works out well. We have no massive outbreak in this country. Out of well over 300 million people all of 2 have contracted Ebola here, and they both worked with the patient that died when his viral load is at it's highest level and they have or are recovering. Chances are every person who posts on this thread knows more people than that themselves who have contracted the flu the past month, and that will kill up to 30,000 people this year.
I believe the point is to do everything possible to keep the virus from establishing a stronghold in this country. Until 1999, West Nile virus was rare, now it runs rampant every summer.
I think you have to admit that there is a slight difference between human to human transmitted diseases and mosquito borne diseases. You can't effectively quarantine mosquitoes or spray humanicides on people.
Sure, right now its just human to human. What happens when a pet contracts it? The point is to do everything to keep this virus contained.
Let's panic now!!!
It will also probably cut into the funding for HIV and AIDS related treatments in Africa.
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It's so difficult to choose the correct crisis to get hysterical over nowadays.
Part of the issue is to determine what constitutes a crisis. Is something that has a miniscule chance of affecting you or I a crisis worthy of causing a panic over?
I'm not minimizing Ebola - it should be treated like you would other infectious issues. I'm trying to avoid the hyperbole going on here like this is an imminent threat. Maybe we need CNN to talk more about how Ebola COULD go air-borne and then we'd all be fucked.
Imagine anti-biotic resistant black plague!
Because the plague is still readily available for a crisis, inhabiting the warrens of many underground animals in America!
Let's panic now!!!
You don't know what you are talking about. Come live in a city that is dealing with this real time and then educate all of us. This is not about hysteria. This is about taking proper precautions to contain an incredibly infectious virus from taking hold in this country.
You have been infected. By fear. Media mission accomplished.
rights shouldn't trump the rights of others.
That people are heroic isn't the case. Because the CDC and the governemt as usual didn't do anything until Dallas is the issue.
Allowing seriously Ill people into the country is a danger to all of us all. And that wonderful people want to go to Africa and help is great. But there is a financial cost as well and risks.
That this Dr in NY went out when he wasnt symptomatic begs the question. What happens if he became symptomatic while out. It is medically possible
That they were unprepared to quarantine a person in decent conditions is not the same as the need to be careful and make sound scientific rules for people either Coming in or returning From these places.
Ebola is not an incredibly infectious virus.
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In comment 11941795 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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It's so difficult to choose the correct crisis to get hysterical over nowadays.
Part of the issue is to determine what constitutes a crisis. Is something that has a miniscule chance of affecting you or I a crisis worthy of causing a panic over?
I'm not minimizing Ebola - it should be treated like you would other infectious issues. I'm trying to avoid the hyperbole going on here like this is an imminent threat. Maybe we need CNN to talk more about how Ebola COULD go air-borne and then we'd all be fucked.
Imagine anti-biotic resistant black plague!
Because the plague is still readily available for a crisis, inhabiting the warrens of many underground animals in America!
Well, there is antibiotic resistant plague and there is plague in the US. And quite honestly, I don't see the people here who are dismissive and demeaning of ebola or any other public health issue as being any smarter or more correct than those who are in over-the-top paranoia.
Yes, I know. But the general public doesn't know.
That's my point. They get infected with irrational fear of the probability of their own infection, and reduce the likelihood that more meaningful diseases take the limelight (and takes away scarce resources from these places).
And you are correct, the extremes are not smart. But that is not the position a lot are taking. The position I continue to take is that overhyping the fear by this disease causes a lot more issues than the actual disease itself.
We've got people crowing for draconian methods to prevent a disease where even a minor understanding of things would state that the costs of reducing the number of American infected to 0 is nigh impossible. And where these methods stamp on a ton of personal liberties.
It's what a lot of political scientists say. So many people are so ideologically confused that their values go out the door the moment they feel a perceived threat. And that's the greater danger to us.
This paranoia and fear of the unknown has led to some pretty shameful moments in our history.
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This is about taking proper precautions to contain an incredibly infectious virus from taking hold in this country.
Ebola is not an incredibly infectious virus. Link - ( New Window )
Hmmm, interesting, that's why healthcare workers wear hazmat suits when caring for the infected. Nice formula, but then their is reality.
I'd rather people be panicked over the fallout of having several events like Ebola that are overblown lead to a true panic due to complacency or the Boy who Cries Wolf syndrome.
when the Media turns everything into a crisis, sooner or later, people come to the realization they are full of shit. That will have harsher ramifications than Ebola will.
Like I stated before, having a reasonable plan to combat Ebloa is fine. Having an unreasonable opinion on the contagiousness of the virus, or the threat to the general public isn't.
And to clean said hazmat suit, with potentially toxic chemicals?
You have been infected. By fear. Media mission accomplished.
There is a lot of fear out there. Much is unwarranted.
But the truth is that there are certain people out there, returning here that have the *potential* to be infectious for a specific period of time. Should they become infectious then there is a certain degree of risk placed on the people who come in contact with them. Even if it's small, it's not nonexistent and they should be aware of it and public health people should be aware of it. Even if the risk is low, they should act properly.
IMO, there is a certain element of irresponsibility and selfishness in some of these people who know that they have the potential to become infectious prior to the 21 days, soon to be closer to 40 days. So they should modify their behavior. Going to a bowling alley or other extraneous public places may not be harmful if you are a few hours before you spike a fever (assuming that you are not infectious a few hours before the fever and there isn't any data either way). However, the bowling alley's business took a hit (I'm guessing) as did Frontier airlines. Maybe it's only fear, but why feed it? And, IMO it's fucking stupid to know that you have the potential to become infectious, even though you haven't yet, and still get on a ship and enclose yourself in a confined space with a thousand other people for a week where it's tough to get to a hospital or even quality medical care.
That's the reason for the hazmat suits. Are you treating any Ebola patients? If not, your exposure is limited to some symptomatic guy vomiting on you in a public place. Since I've been vomited on by non-family members exactly 0 times in my life, I'm going to guess my exposure possibilities are slim to none.
And that Hazmat -> highly infectious, or some other shitty logical reasoning.
There is a reasonable balance to be struck where these people have some creature comforts, which makes it likelier that they will voluntarily comply with these measures, instead of going into hiding or into denial.
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The flip side is who feeds it. How do I know the bowling alley or the airline he flew on? Because the Media decided to air that information. Do they really need to spread panic like that, either?
there has to be a balance on how to handle the health care workers, so I'm fine with reasonable quarantines. But I'm definitely not a fan of going into every detail which only serves the purpose of scaring anyone who potentially could have come into contact with the guy.
Only after we send you.
First of all, holding this woman hostage IN A TENT BEHIND THE HOSPITAL is outrageous. I can go along with a quarantine (even though I think the risk is vastly overstated), but to not allow her to stay at home? Or actually IN a hospital?
Plus, the governor (again) put his foot in his mouth when he stated that she was "obviously ill" when she was showing no symptoms. She should sue.
That's the reason for the hazmat suits. Are you treating any Ebola patients? If not, your exposure is limited to some symptomatic guy vomiting on you in a public place. Since I've been vomited on by non-family members exactly 0 times in my life, I'm going to guess my exposure possibilities are slim to none.
Listen, my position on this is not about getting infected. It's about taking the proper precautions to keep this from becoming established in the U.S. Proper precautions with proper protocols can help protect against this. Nothing more, nothing less. Right now there is no consistency in the prevention and everything is reactive.
And yes, unfortunately they have to say where the exposed people have been because those people must be made aware that they may have been exposed so they can take precautions.
Again, it's hyper vigilance, but that is how to prevent the spread.
And that Hazmat -> highly infectious, or some other shitty logical reasoning.
Wow, just wow.
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why Hazmat suits may be a preferable way to deal with this...
And that Hazmat -> highly infectious, or some other shitty logical reasoning.
Wow, just wow.
Oh come on. You're the one who doesn't understand the significant benefits of a hazmat suit beyond "highly infectious".
Vigilance is appropriate. Hyper-vigilance, not so much because it allocates resources away from other, more threatening situations.
Those of you who completely agreed with the initial treatment of this woman should be screaming bloody murder at the revisions they just made to their policy. Where are the cries of anguish? I can't hear them. So which is it, was the first policy wrong, or is the current policy wrong?
By the way, Doctors Without Borders didn't sue, one woman who works for DWB sued. I guess if you can't tell the difference they can do without your contribution.
The boys, in sixth and eighth grade, were attacked Friday afternoon at I.S. 318 in Tremont, according to the African Advocacy Council.
The boys, who have been in the U.S. for about a month, were taken to the hospital after the attack.
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However, the bowling alley's business took a hit (I'm guessing) as did Frontier airlines. Maybe it's only fear, but why feed it?
The flip side is who feeds it. How do I know the bowling alley or the airline he flew on? Because the Media decided to air that information. Do they really need to spread panic like that, either?
there has to be a balance on how to handle the health care workers, so I'm fine with reasonable quarantines. But I'm definitely not a fan of going into every detail which only serves the purpose of scaring anyone who potentially could have come into contact with the guy.
My point is that you are right, there is little chance of an outbreak, there's a lot of fear that's unwarranted and over-hyped, but nearly all the precepts for that, as well as the flat, absolutest statements about ease or difficulty in becoming infected are based more on behavior than biology. If people do this or that, then...
Gov't doesn't need to quarantine or place travel restrictions or whatever, but people have to be responsible. You pretty much know if you are an at risk person, so modify your behavior accordingly. there should be more individual responsibility, even if there is some inconvenience associated with it.
i mean the media is loving this.
but as for my comment on the doctor messing it all up for everyone. Yes he did. He worked on patients and should have at least quarantined himself. But he didnt, he went about his business and then got sick. He was confirmed to have ebola. While he may have not have passed the sickness to anyone yet, he does pose a risk regardless to the public. And i know its hard to get but its contagious none the less.
With anxiety fears, i would be the first to ask for banning all flights but thats just dumb to do. But with the doctors who have been there in the front lines,i would just ask for common sense from them to do their own quarantine. But the doctor proved that isnt the case.
According to whom? From the NY Times:
This mandatory quarantine had everything to do with politics, and little to do with health policy. 2 governors who have a pipe dream of becoming president get together to hatch this scheme.
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People go through this denial phase for things like Alcoholism and other addictions.
A virus that's been hyped as THE killer of the year? That's why a lot of people are OK with reasonable quarantines. People are stupid, both when infected and when seeing people who are "infected".
But going overboard like this (either through the hype machine or interment camps) will reduce the probability of any rational person being responsible to near 0.
That is the point that FatMan is making, I believe. We've hyped this to high heaven so that personal responsibility in treating this is the outlier.
Yeah, it's part of human nature to deny having this.
But a huge part is the machine of hype that has ruined the chances for good actions by people.
For fuck's sake, I know a guy who got accused of being a carrier of Ebola. He's from Kenya. Hasn't been there in 6 months.
Vigilance is appropriate. Hyper-vigilance, not so much because it allocates resources away from other, more threatening situations.
I would still argue that it's not damn hard to catch. I need to do so more reading about the spread in Africa but I don't see projectile vomiting as being a cultural greeting over there and multiple people have become infected at group gatherings, beyond just caring for overtly sick people. Part of what will limit it to health workers over here is that people will be hospitalized more quickly and contact with others will be limited...you would hope. IOW it's hard to catch because you limit exposure, as opposed to the virus having to work very hard to infect you if you are around it.
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In comment 11941885 kickerpa16 said:
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why Hazmat suits may be a preferable way to deal with this...
And that Hazmat -> highly infectious, or some other shitty logical reasoning.
Wow, just wow.
Oh come on. You're the one who doesn't understand the significant benefits of a hazmat suit beyond "highly infectious".
Kicker, my point on the hazmat suits was in response to semipro claiming this is not an infectious disease based on a formula. There is theory and then reality.
And then, since people touch their face hundreds of times per day, you have your major transmission vector, especially with piss poor sanitation and anti bacterial gel being too expensive.
And btw, the risk from the NY doctor was (not is) greater than zero, but the risks of spreading Ebola go up as symptoms increase, and he did turn himself in when he had a significant (albeit modest) fever.
Yeah, it's part of human nature to deny having this.
But a huge part is the machine of hype that has ruined the chances for good actions by people.
For fuck's sake, I know a guy who got accused of being a carrier of Ebola. He's from Kenya. Hasn't been there in 6 months.
Yeah, so people are ignorant about themselves catching it. But most people likely couldn't tell you what a virus is. But health care workers, who are told to self-monitor because there is some potential, no matter how small, of them being infected should still have enough sense to modify their behavior until the danger period is over.
NEWARK — In a quick reversal of course, the nurse under quarantine at University Hospital in Newark after treating Ebola patients in Africa will be discharged, state officials announced this morning.
Kaci Hickox will be transported privately to Maine where officials there will decide on where she will be permitted to go next.
Officials said while Hickox was initially found with no symptoms, she later developed a fever. She has been symptom free for the past 24 hours, the department of health said.
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And then, since people touch their face hundreds of times per day, you have your major transmission vector, especially with piss poor sanitation and anti bacterial gel being too expensive.
Your probably right. That plus more people than not have small cuts or abrasions on skin which provides access. Which means that it's not hard as hell to catch in a biology sense. It's hard to catch in a social sense, which is actually the practical way of thinking about it over here. BTW, anti-bacterial gels or soaps wouldn't protect (beyond ordinary sanitation/hygiene measures) for obvious reasons.
You can find footage and photos of loved ones holding ebola patients while they are sick. Even when the foreign medical personnel are present, people are still near the patients.
for the most part, my opinion isn't too far from yours on the matter of taking precautions. But a lot of people are missing the point that the hysteria is unnecessary (and probably created in a large part due to the Media). I also think people don't realize what a great divide there is in medical care given in Africa vs. the US. Heck, on this thread alone, you have people using mortality rates from Africa to symbolize US rates.