When you draft WRs in round 1 you get dez Bryant ,AJ Green types , when you wait till the second round you typically get Reuben Randle , Sinorice Moss types . Enough of the what ifs , this is just getting stupid how so many on here are man crushing on Dallas o line . So many are blindly led by what the media tells you . If Dallas has another game like last night ,the media will be in a frenzy saying that the line is inexperienced . Romo got the crap kicked out of him last night , they are not gods gift to o lineman.
I think its unfair to judge the rebuilding job that Reese has done when Geoff Schwartz has yet to play a snap. He is a big part of what the Giants did in the offseason.
Bechham and Richburg. The rending of garments over the fact that we passed over a guard in the 2014 first round is one of those things that will go down in BBI lore, like the legend of Jonas Seawright and the time the Saints traded us a bunch of #1s for Shockey.
When you draft WRs in round 1 you get dez Bryant ,AJ Green types , when you wait till the second round you typically get Reuben Randle , Sinorice Moss types . Enough of the what ifs , this is just getting stupid how so many on here are man crushing on Dallas o line . So many are blindly led by what the media tells you . If Dallas has another game like last night ,the media will be in a frenzy saying that the line is inexperienced . Romo got the crap kicked out of him last night , they are not gods gift to o lineman.
Yes.
He waited to long.
For the umpteenth time it isn't Matin over OBJ. The issue is that Reese waited until last year to invest high in OL. The draft is always a bit of a crap shoot but when you spend 7 picks on WRs compared to one on the OL like Reese did until 2013 you are relying on older vets and FA pick ups. It didn't work.
Pugh was a reach. All of the warm fuzzies and accolades bestowed upon him were premature. He may develop into a great player but somehow his 16 solid games as a rookie have were irrefutable proof he was a 10 year starter at RT. Dinged up or not he's regressed a lot. Beatty will NEVER be a top tier left tackle despite PFF ratings. He's a middle of the road tackle soon to be 30.
There's a reason they switched offenses. So this line wouldn't get Eli killed. Schwartz ahould help but all this years missing on the Barden's, Jernigan's, Beckum types hurt. Of they had developed maybe they wouldn't need to pick up OBJ. Not to mention the Sintim Austin total misses. Somewhere I. There a few OL may have made all the difference in the world.
Max Unger goes to Seattle and we got Sintim. A 3-4 LB. Cordy Glenn is a productive starter. Not all world but better than Wilson who despite great college numbers wasn't a need in Rd 1 more than OL help.
Reese had to grab Pugh and Richberg as the OL is still thin as paper and we really have no idea long term what this line may look like. There's not one sure fire guy like Snee or Mckenzie who were top end guys.
The OL is still a work in progress. The good news is Other that the Eagles game Eli isn't getting mauled as
Much and can probably play 5 more years.
We've wasted a lot of Rd 1-3 picks on non-OL guys that didn't work out. He's done a good job with guys like Pugh and Richberg the last 2 years...should have been picking guys like that every year
He waited too long to try and replace Diehl, Snee, et al
I was a huge supporter of Martin pre draft. I still think that Martin a future pro bowl guard. But drafting OBD was still the way to go. A good oline is key but we were dying for more playmakers on offense.
With Cruz going down for the year, if we had drafted Martin we would be left with Randle, Parker and our best receivers. I still have high hopes and expectations that Schwartz will come back and help solidify our interior line.
Next season we add a top right or left (depending on how we play the rest of the season) either in FA or the draft, and we then have playmakers on offense with a solid line. I still like our power 4 Eli, Cruz, ODB, Jennings.
He and the team did invest in the OL and they started making moves on it with drafting Beatty, signing Andrews, etc back in 2009.
Like with some other aspects if the roster, they just didn't rebuild it well before now (and very well may not be doing a good job of it now; that's still TBD) and/or get a good return on investment.
He and the team did invest in the OL and they started making moves on it with drafting Beatty, signing Andrews, etc back in 2009.
Like with some other aspects if the roster, they just didn't rebuild it well before now (and very well may not be doing a good job of it now; that's still TBD) and/or get a good return on investment.
Good post. We've allocated plenty of resources to the OL. We've just failed at it.
Good post LauderdaleMatty. I agree, it's not just that they should
have taken Martin this year, but that they neglected to even spend 2nd or 3rd round pick on OL to take the Jayron Hosleys of the world. Beatty may not be great but he is serviceable taken in the 2nd round. Richburg looks like a player - 2nd Round. Pugh may be a RG in the future, but he again looks like he is a long term player - 1st round.
The Giants talent level across the board has suffered because of five bad drafts (2008-12).
You can say the same thing about LB for example.
Why did the Giants spend so much on FAs this offseason? Because they blew so many picks (or injuries prematurely took even the good drafted players away).
but do not think he saw OL as important, up till two years ago. He was trying to get high skill players with measurables thinking the OL was not the priority it is with this type of QB. We passed on a lot of top Ol by reaching for "steals" in the draft who did not work out. Cost us dearly these last years when we could have been in the playoffs and who knows, have won more SBs ?
RE: Good post LauderdaleMatty. I agree, it's not just that they should
have taken Martin this year, but that they neglected to even spend 2nd or 3rd round pick on OL to take the Jayron Hosleys of the world. Beatty may not be great but he is serviceable taken in the 2nd round. Richburg looks like a player - 2nd Round. Pugh may be a RG in the future, but he again looks like he is a long term player - 1st round.
Yeah, I'm totally OK with Beckum. I just don't agree with Reese's draft philosophy
As Eric just posted. Too many over all misses. BUT IMO that's Reese's philosophy. He's goes for guys with some type of athletic measurables that will make them unstoppable. He's missed way too often. Sintim, Travis beckham, Austin, Barden,and Wilson.
I would also suggest rarely to you find that guy later than the top 10 unless he's got some questions. Be it lack of experience like JPP, or behavior issues like the Dez Bryanat and Josh Gordon's.
Reese hasn't coppered himself in glory in FA either.
The OL is still a work in progress but it is better than last year though that wasn't hard to accomplish
RE: Good post LauderdaleMatty. I agree, it's not just that they should
have taken Martin this year, but that they neglected to even spend 2nd or 3rd round pick on OL to take the Jayron Hosleys of the world. Beatty may not be great but he is serviceable taken in the 2nd round. Richburg looks like a player - 2nd Round. Pugh may be a RG in the future, but he again looks like he is a long term player - 1st round.
when they took Hosley, their secondary needed both quality and depth. Taking a CB in his draft slot wasn't at all an issue; him turning out to not be any good was.
Offensive line is not the only part of a team and a team only has so many resources on a year to year basis to improve/fill holes.
He and the team did invest in the OL and they started making moves on it with drafting Beatty, signing Andrews, etc back in 2009.
Like with some other aspects if the roster, they just didn't rebuild it well before now (and very well may not be doing a good job of it now; that's still TBD) and/or get a good return on investment.
SO it was OK to draft Jernigan and Barden as back up WRs but not to draft OL when the line was aging anmd under performing? Why was it more important to draft WRs than OL as it was aging?
Reese drafted 1 OL in his first 7 years in the first 3 rounds. So you can say he didn't wait to long but 7 years as GM is a lifetime in the NFL and to me if you want to build an OL off of FA's and low round picks its not sound football philosophy
Reese didn't " wait too long," he just had a bunch of bad picks.
he finally realized OL is worth spending early draft picks on? I hope soon enough he will realize the same thing about LB... WR are some of the least important players in the game.. Yet we outspent early draft picks on WR over LB and OL..
We've wasted a lot of Rd 1-3 picks on non-OL guys that didn't work out. He's done a good job with guys like Pugh and Richberg the last 2 years...should have been picking guys like that every year
He waited too long to try and replace Diehl, Snee, et al
The thing is, GM basics.....you can't throw the ball if you don't have the time......you can't run the ball, if you don't open holes.....it doesn't matter who the receivers are, or who the runners are, without an efficient OL in front of Eli, your offense is not going to function....
This is the problem with the front office...we've won two SB's with linebackers you can't remember the names of....we've pulled TE's out of our ass that performed efficiently......we won a SB with the worst running attack in the NFL.....it was only because Eli had his only "elite" year of his career, that this team overcame the deficiencies of the OL.....and because of that, the front office thought, he can do it again.....well, it's finally come back to bite them in the ass.....
Now the front office had to make a decision...fix the team, or try to repeat as SB champs....we know which direction they went....they still think this team is a few players away from the big show....the decisions of the last three years, will set this team back a few more....
Reason I say this is because of the track record of this front office......the way they draft....the free agents they sign.....what is their plan? Is it to make the playoffs at all cost of the future? So you may make the playoffs, one year, and then you wait 2-3-4 years to make it again?
There was no plan after 2011.....they had a SB MVP QB, and they did not protect him with an OL.....
Pugh and Richburg? How has Pugh looked this year? Have to hope that it is an injury he is playing with, that is his reason for the mistakes he has made....Richburg? Until we see hi play a few seasons at center, do we really know what we have? He certainly looks like a player.....I hope he is a player....I hope Schwartz comes back, and they put him at RG, because Richburg has played the position better than he has at LG....
After last night, and this weekend, there is still hope for this Giant team.....
A few have posted on this forum, maybe Romo doesn't last the year.....maybe Murray is burnt out by the end of the season....The vaunted Eagle offense can be stopped....and guess what? Washington is back in the mix......
The NFL, seems to be a week to week, situation....the media in Boston was burying the Pats after the Chiefs game....now it's a Brady/Peyton showdown again, and the balance of power in the AFC is up for grabs again....
It's the same in the NFC East....only problem for the Giants is, too many key players are injured or playing with injuries......
They have had two weeks to rest....two weeks to prepare....a win, and anything is possible.....but a loss, with two weeks to prepare, will probably be devastating for this team....
After watching the NFL, week after week, the game is not decided on paper....that's why they play the games.....
The front office could have had this team in a better position, this year, if it had a plan after 2011....
he finally realized OL is worth spending early draft picks on? I hope soon enough he will realize the same thing about LB... WR are some of the least important players in the game.. Yet we outspent early draft picks on WR over LB and OL..
WRs are some of the least important players in the game? That is absolute nonsense.
The same tired arguments about Max Unger. They were not picking Unger when they had a Pro Bowl C under contract in year 2 of his deal.
Again, where are all these lineman he missed on in the draft at positions they drafted. The list is who.
The NFL is proven you can find G all over including UDFA and 'castoffs'. See Dallas, see Evan Mathis, See Rich Suebert, etc, etc, etc
You cant plan based upon guys having career injuries
He signed the best FA C who never missed a game in 5 years and then could not stay healthy. His Prob Bowl G was essentially done at the age of 30 in a league where G play until 34-35.
Again, he has had to replace players at skill positions that had career altering injuries: Smith, Phillips, Nicks, Thomas, Wilson, Jones. That requires using picks you do not anticipate having to use. No other franchise in the league has had to deal with that - none
inherited a franchise QB in his prime, an upper echelon head coach, and an offensive line with 5 established starters (that would remain intact for 3-4 subsequent years)?
Reese has shown a disturbing tendency to undervalue certain parts of the team. This showed when he failed to properly reinforce the Safety position in 2009. And we all know how he has tried unsuccessfully to "left hand" the linebackers, and the tight ends have suffered from this, too, although not as badly.
But failing to properly maintain the OL is his greatest failing to date because the OL is what protects the scarcest commodity in pro football - a true franchise QB. Reese is lucky as hell that Eli is still playing. The OL they have fielded for the last couple of seasons could have gotten the QB seriously hurt. And what's worse, there is no stability in sight. This current OL is charitably described as a work in progress.
Compound this with the fact that many of the players they have drafted when they should have been investing higher picks in the OL have been outright flops. Further compound by the non-football injuries and medical issues that have robbed them of some high picks, and you have the current team, a very mediocre assembly at best.
would be a lot of areas of this team that would have issues too if they hadn't gotten lucky/found gems/coaches guys up.
Our top two TEs are not draft picks. One of them was out of football.
If it were not for Victor Cruz, the WR area would be a major need (Randle still really hasn't panned out).
The jury is still out on Williams, but the other guys are FAs
The starting five OL makes up half the starting offense. It's why we're focused there, but they haven't done a really good job across the board.
Eric, I agree. But I want to add that while I think we'll finish no better than 8-8 this year there is "potential" for us to have a top notch offense next year. We need, first and foremost, to get the best UFA RT that we can this off-season. We can move Pugh inside where I think he'll be a stud. Richburg slides to OC and Schwartz is in at OG. I think Beatty is good enough at LT for now as you can't have everything perfect.
I also believe that TE Robinson has potential to be a deep down the seem guy. I understand he hasn't done squat yet but I saw some things in pre-season from him that you can't coach: speed. He was just so raw coming out of college and missing OTAs, camp injuries, etc. I do believe we'll see some more from him as these next 9 games move along.
Last, I think Beckham is for real and in this passing league he'll be a star and deep threat. He just has to stay healthy. If Cruz comes back healthy; Donnell & Robinson develop and Beckham is a true #1 that needs double teaming at times we should be fine on offense next year, year 2 of McAdoo's system where vast improvement should be seen.
The Giants talent level across the board has suffered because of five bad drafts (2008-12).
This is an absolutely true statement. We had too many "reaches" or chance picks that didn't work out.
However, the last two drafts have been promising......I think the calls for Reese's head is a bit premature, and I want to see what his plan is for this offseason.
what does Zach Martin have to do with waiting too long?
He was only drafted this year. Even had we drafted him we would have waited too long.
Yes Reese waited too long. He inherited a great line that was partially composed of undrafted and low round pick players. I think he overlooked how much effort has to go into building a good OL.
Reese bear's responsibility period. Since he turned the reigns over to Kevin Abrahams, the drafts have been poor. They have had to utilize FA annually to compensate. Dallying in free agency affects the cap. Which then has a snowball effect on your whole roster; you can't pay to keep your productive draft choices. Apparently, Reese was more involved in this years selections and the results presently appear better. There is a shortage of talent on this club and JR is the captain of the ship. His drafts for various reasons have failed; some to injuries to to poor evaluation. Ultimately he is responsible for the present situation.
inherited a franchise QB in his prime, an upper echelon head coach, and an offensive line with 5 established starters (that would remain intact for 3-4 subsequent years)?
Can't be a very long list.
This is why I question the wisdom of those who put Reese as a top five GM. He was given the two hardest things to find - a coach and a QB.
People like to put T Thompson on a pedestal - look at his OL drafting
RT - 1 both G - 2's, LT - 4, C-7. His RT was a failure at LT and his other 1st rd OL can't play. Does he get blasted for not spending high draft picks on the OL. He spends them all on defense and there defense is terrible
PIttsburgh spends a ton of high picks on OL and outside of Pouncy have not had good results
Who are the high draft picks Denver has used on the OL - they have 3 "castoff" OL starting
Your premium picks are the 1st and 2nd - outside of Sintim and Austin where has he missed. He does not miss there. His issue is the lack of 3rd rd players and a tendency to draft players with injury history. Anything after that becomes a bonus
He was only drafted this year. Even had we drafted him we would have waited too long.
Yes Reese waited too long. He inherited a great line that was partially composed of undrafted and low round pick players. I think he overlooked how much effort has to go into building a good OL.
he was around for the offensive line's collapse in the seasons after the SB in 2000. If that was in fact his thinking, he should have known better.
The same tired arguments about Max Unger. They were not picking Unger when they had a Pro Bowl C under contract in year 2 of his deal.
Again, where are all these lineman he missed on in the draft at positions they drafted. The list is who.
The NFL is proven you can find G all over including UDFA and 'castoffs'. See Dallas, see Evan Mathis, See Rich Suebert, etc, etc, etc
You cant plan based upon guys having career injuries
He signed the best FA C who never missed a game in 5 years and then could not stay healthy. His Prob Bowl G was essentially done at the age of 30 in a league where G play until 34-35.
Again, he has had to replace players at skill positions that had career altering injuries: Smith, Phillips, Nicks, Thomas, Wilson, Jones. That requires using picks you do not anticipate having to use. No other franchise in the league has had to deal with that - none
SO you don't draft a young talented OL because you have Sean Ohara but you do draft guys like Barden, Travis Beckham, Jernigan and Randle because you need depth at WR.
Your reasoning is exactly the point. Reese doesn't look ahead at the OL like he did at other position groups. They drafted Kiwi when they had both Stray and Osi. They drafted JPP as well. They Prince because he was a great player and Reese highly values DBs and depth there. Unger was a very highly rated player. He just happens to play on the OL where AGAIN until last year and the Giants line was a joke Reese had no choice but to grab an OL. Pugh who at this point is looking like he may have to move positions so before we pat Jerry on the back lets pray Pugh bounces back ASAP
Of course the draft is a crap shoot and no GM is perfect but to pretend signing FA's and drafting guys in the later rounds isn't the same as going for more highly rated earlier picks and is ultimate Reese apologist move.
So now in 9 years as GM he's drafted 8 receivers in the first 3 rounds and 3 OLs. Those two in the last trwo years when OL is a mess. Anmd WR iosn't all that deep either despite all the bigs he's made there.
Or, if you want to defend him, his 'projects' at OL have pretty much been somewhere between failures and disasters; you may want to put Pugh in there given this year, but I think he will be OK with a veteran RG,and shedding weight.
The wheels of the bus had to have been seen when Reggie Mc,DD, and O'Hara, at their respective ages, gave you the best they had in the SB,and that it was going to go down hill from there.
'Wasting' a 1st or 2nd on an OL, if that were to ultimately be the case, would have been worth the try.
Same with LB.
fix the line this year, it's just that they got absolutely nothing out of Schwartz. I think they need that guy that they can run behind consistently and for him to go down so early was a huge blow.
You can definitely make an argument that they didn't do enough in the previous years, where they made the mistake of assuming certain players were healthy enough and certain project players were ready to step up.
again, maybe the question you guys are asking should be
why Flaherty can't coach them up... or what's going on with our strength and conditioning team since our guys are constantly manhandled like ragdolls...or why, regarding years past, did they keep playing O'Hara and Diehl's corpses instead of building on the youth that Reese provided.
Reese tries to do unconventional and value drafting. he looks for diamonds in the rough as a matter of course as opposed to drafting the blue goose directly in front of him.
Hakeem Nicks is the only first rounder who was sure fire then productive since 2009. Everyone else was kinda just a baffling pic.
2008: K. Phillips(32) - first OL after Phillips C. Rachal(39) and M. Pollak(59)
T. Thomas(64) - J. Greco(65) J. Zuttah(83)
M.Manningham(95) - C. Reinhardt(96) O. Cousins(99)that is it until well into the 4th of bad OL
2009: H. Nicks(29) the first OL taken after Nicks was Eben Britton(39) Levitre(51) worth it over Nicks - no
Sintim was drafted - bad. I actually thought they would look at Loadholdt figuring Deihl at LT
Beatty(60) first OL taken after Beatty was Brewster(75) out of league in 2010. Then you have A. Cladwell with 19 career starts and out of league in 2012, then 2 more G's. Keep in mind that Snee is 26 yrs old and top 5 at his position. That is the OL drafted in the 1st 3 rds
2010: JPP(15) lupati & Pouncey were after - Bulaga was 1st T taken after JPP and can't play LT. Saffold(33) could not play LT and is now a G.
Joseph(46) 1st OL taken after him was V. Ducasse(61) then C. Brown(64)
C. Jones(76) first OL taken after him was JD Walton. @nd was S. Luavo(92)and M. Johnson(98) both G. That is it until 4th
2011: Prince(19) 5 OL taken after Prince in the 1st. Costanzo, Watkins, Carpenter, Carimi, Sherrod - really
Austin(52) bad pick. However, in terms of OL R. Hudson(55) & M. Gilbert(63) only OL picked after him
Jernigan(83) to replace Manningham. J. Reid(85) J. Barksdale(92) That is it until the 4th RD
2012: You can debate the Wilson pick, but Glenn was not viewed as a T due to his weight. Schwartz is the best OL of that rd
Randle(63) first OL picked after him J. LeRibeus(71) and his 1 career start. D. Stevenson(74) B. Brooks(76)
Jayron Holsey(93) - last player in 3rd round at 94 OL T. Bergstrom, with 9 career appearances
2013: Pugh picked 1st. Hankins picked 49 - no OL picked in 2rd after Hankins
picked Moore(81) H. Thorton and B. Williams only OL picked after Moore in Round - Williams already out of NFL
Where are all these misses on OL. Sintim was an awful pick. Autin turned into a bad pick, but the OL picked after him are not good players. You want to rip him for those picks OK, but there is very little passing on OL in the 1st 3 rounds
yet there's no evidence that proves had the Giants drafted them, they'd be "misses" or "Successes".
Again, the team drafting matters as much as the player being selected.
Which is where Reese's failures at the skill position players hit home. He repeatedly selected players that were poor fits for Gilbride & Coughlin's offense. Reasoning somehow they would adapt to those players and not the other way around.
Reese is a failure as a GM and should be fired for that. Instead, Gilbride left and know Reese looks a little smarter because this new offense is easier to find parts for.
yet there's no evidence that proves had the Giants drafted them, they'd be "misses" or "Successes".
Again, the team drafting matters as much as the player being selected.
Which is where Reese's failures at the skill position players hit home. He repeatedly selected players that were poor fits for Gilbride & Coughlin's offense. Reasoning somehow they would adapt to those players and not the other way around.
Reese is a failure as a GM and should be fired for that. Instead, Gilbride left and know Reese looks a little smarter because this new offense is easier to find parts for.
Yeah...but it goes both ways. Many successful coaches adapt their system to fit the talent that they have. This is where Coughlin and Gilbride failed in my opinion. David Wilson is a prime example. You have to find a way to go around your "system" when you have a dynamic playmaker and find ways to get him the ball.
My main problem with Reese is the same I had with Accorsi. Neglect the O-line the LBs early in drafts and then rely on coaches to develop a bunch of late round draft picks and rookie free agents at those positions.
last year, he'll be fine this year. But yes, they waited to long. The line was scary at times in 2011.
They had issues on the ends, not inside, though. Boothe, Baas, and Snee weren't completely useless at that time. McKenzie was pretty bad in pass pro though, and Diehl a serviceable LT. The OT's are far better now, but the inside blocking isn't.
a retired offensive lineman like Snee to rank prospects and help the
draft process. They seem to have a higher drafting priority for the defensive line than protecting Eli. Its almost like young kids trading baseball cards.
Rather than drafting for need they are drafting by name.
Wilson was a nice kid but there were 5 offensive lineman drafted right after him that were starters right away.
but, in retrospect, I am pleased with the way they went. I think Beckham/Richburg is a better combo than Martin + whoever they would have picked up in round 2. I think Beckham is going to be a huge star and Richburg, once moved to OC will be our best OL.
If you over 7 years use 3 times the amount of high picks on WRs you value that position more. Wen adding in DL and DB irs astounding.
18 players in those 3 position groups. 3 OL one TE in Travis Beckum whom I consider a receiver as he was never an in-line TE, one LB and 1 RB
Please why cant some people just admit he doesn't like to spend higher picks in general on certain position groups.
And lets be honest, if the OL wasn't a fucking mess he wouldn't have grabbed Pugh and Richberg either. Look no further than this year. Martin was much mnore highly rated than Richberg. ODJ was also very highly rated. He grabbed a WR. Then went to OL. Its his philosophy
So the simple answer to the original post is yes. It was yes and will be yes no matter how many people post all the info they want.
Get in line, newbie, if you're gonna question/criticize the lack of attention Reese has given to drafting an OL. I've been on it for about 5 years, and I'm not alone ontheissue.
I think Reese did what he could to address the line.
A lot of things have happened since 2007 with this unit that has factored in to what the line looks like today.
I think the biggest factor that no one seems to acknowledge is that Rich Seubert and Shaun O'Hara both suffered catastophic injuries that ended their time with the Giants prematurely. They both could have played at a decent level for 2 more seasons before they got hurt.
Free agent pickups just haven't worked out. Shawn Andrews and Sean Locklear both played very well for the Giants when they were inserted into the lineup, but neither could stay healthy. David Baas was the highest rated center available in free agency when the Giants acquired - he played well at times, and contributed towards the championship in 2011, but again he couldn't stay healthy. Same thing so far with Geoff Schwartz - another highly rated free agent who hasn't been able to contribute due to an injury.
Despite all of that, the Giants still were able to acquire Will Beatty, Justin Pugh, and Weston Richburg at times when there was a need for them. Beatty played well enough to earn a 2nd contract (he would have been the highest rated OT in free agency had the Giants let him walk), and Pugh and Richburg look to have promising careers so far.
And then there's the story of Chris Snee who made the Pro-bowl for the Giants in 2012, and then inexplicably had a huge fall off and is now retired just 2 years later. Given all the circumstances, I'm not sure what else people actually expected Reese to do to try and keep things intact upfront. The team had other needs that had to be addressed over the last 6 seasons - it seemed to me like the appropriate balance of attention was given to the OLine. Things just didn't work out ideally.
Jerry Reese has been in charge for 8 years. Reese should have been smart and started thinking about the future of the OL back in 2007 when they were a little bit older but still playing very well. A good GM doesn't wait for massive problem. He prevents a massive problem. In 2007 only Snee was still young. The other starting guys were all between 27-30.
From 2007 - 2012 Reese only drafted 1 guy in the top 3 rounds. Beatty in the 2nd. Reese was not doing enough for the OL. I don't by the argument that we should build our OL with some other team's cast-offs. More times than not those guys are not worth the money we spend on them.
It's good Reese started fixing the line in the past 2 year but it is too little, too late. 2 players can't fix 6 years of neglect.
I'll say it again: get the best UFA RT you can this off-season
Beatty is service-able at LT. Remember, he was still mending during camp and was maybe a bit rusty early in the year but overall I think he's played well enough.
Move Richburg to OC next year and Schwartz to OG. If we are lucky and do land a decent RT we can move Pugh inside where he'll be a stud OG. Our OL automatically becomes above average.
Assuming Cruz recovers and can play at a high level, we'd be OK at WR and I still believe Donnell & Robinson will develop and be a super solid TE combination.
Stay healthy, learn McAdoo's offense this year, and next year we'll compete. I am actually more worried about this defense as there are many injured & aging (Beason, Jenkins, Patterson, Rolle) faces along with JPP needing a contract.
Bechham and Richburg. The rending of garments over the fact that we passed over a guard in the 2014 first round is one of those things that will go down in BBI lore, like the legend of Jonas Seawright and the time the Saints traded us a bunch of #1s for Shockey.
Yes.
He waited to long.
For the umpteenth time it isn't Matin over OBJ. The issue is that Reese waited until last year to invest high in OL. The draft is always a bit of a crap shoot but when you spend 7 picks on WRs compared to one on the OL like Reese did until 2013 you are relying on older vets and FA pick ups. It didn't work.
Pugh was a reach. All of the warm fuzzies and accolades bestowed upon him were premature. He may develop into a great player but somehow his 16 solid games as a rookie have were irrefutable proof he was a 10 year starter at RT. Dinged up or not he's regressed a lot. Beatty will NEVER be a top tier left tackle despite PFF ratings. He's a middle of the road tackle soon to be 30.
There's a reason they switched offenses. So this line wouldn't get Eli killed. Schwartz ahould help but all this years missing on the Barden's, Jernigan's, Beckum types hurt. Of they had developed maybe they wouldn't need to pick up OBJ. Not to mention the Sintim Austin total misses. Somewhere I. There a few OL may have made all the difference in the world.
Max Unger goes to Seattle and we got Sintim. A 3-4 LB. Cordy Glenn is a productive starter. Not all world but better than Wilson who despite great college numbers wasn't a need in Rd 1 more than OL help.
Reese had to grab Pugh and Richberg as the OL is still thin as paper and we really have no idea long term what this line may look like. There's not one sure fire guy like Snee or Mckenzie who were top end guys.
The OL is still a work in progress. The good news is Other that the Eagles game Eli isn't getting mauled as
Much and can probably play 5 more years.
We've wasted a lot of Rd 1-3 picks on non-OL guys that didn't work out. He's done a good job with guys like Pugh and Richberg the last 2 years...should have been picking guys like that every year
He waited too long to try and replace Diehl, Snee, et al
With Cruz going down for the year, if we had drafted Martin we would be left with Randle, Parker and our best receivers. I still have high hopes and expectations that Schwartz will come back and help solidify our interior line.
Next season we add a top right or left (depending on how we play the rest of the season) either in FA or the draft, and we then have playmakers on offense with a solid line. I still like our power 4 Eli, Cruz, ODB, Jennings.
Like with some other aspects if the roster, they just didn't rebuild it well before now (and very well may not be doing a good job of it now; that's still TBD) and/or get a good return on investment.
Like with some other aspects if the roster, they just didn't rebuild it well before now (and very well may not be doing a good job of it now; that's still TBD) and/or get a good return on investment.
Good post. We've allocated plenty of resources to the OL. We've just failed at it.
The Giants talent level across the board has suffered because of five bad drafts (2008-12).
You can say the same thing about LB for example.
Why did the Giants spend so much on FAs this offseason? Because they blew so many picks (or injuries prematurely took even the good drafted players away).
Martin and Richburg. Reminds me of Moore and Elliot.
Yeah, I'm totally OK with Beckum. I just don't agree with Reese's draft philosophy
As Eric just posted. Too many over all misses. BUT IMO that's Reese's philosophy. He's goes for guys with some type of athletic measurables that will make them unstoppable. He's missed way too often. Sintim, Travis beckham, Austin, Barden,and Wilson.
I would also suggest rarely to you find that guy later than the top 10 unless he's got some questions. Be it lack of experience like JPP, or behavior issues like the Dez Bryanat and Josh Gordon's.
Reese hasn't coppered himself in glory in FA either.
The OL is still a work in progress but it is better than last year though that wasn't hard to accomplish
when they took Hosley, their secondary needed both quality and depth. Taking a CB in his draft slot wasn't at all an issue; him turning out to not be any good was.
Offensive line is not the only part of a team and a team only has so many resources on a year to year basis to improve/fill holes.
Like with some other aspects if the roster, they just didn't rebuild it well before now (and very well may not be doing a good job of it now; that's still TBD) and/or get a good return on investment.
SO it was OK to draft Jernigan and Barden as back up WRs but not to draft OL when the line was aging anmd under performing? Why was it more important to draft WRs than OL as it was aging?
Reese drafted 1 OL in his first 7 years in the first 3 rounds. So you can say he didn't wait to long but 7 years as GM is a lifetime in the NFL and to me if you want to build an OL off of FA's and low round picks its not sound football philosophy
There's a difference between waiting and failing.
mfsd : 8:50 am : link : reply
yes
We've wasted a lot of Rd 1-3 picks on non-OL guys that didn't work out. He's done a good job with guys like Pugh and Richberg the last 2 years...should have been picking guys like that every year
He waited too long to try and replace Diehl, Snee, et al
The thing is, GM basics.....you can't throw the ball if you don't have the time......you can't run the ball, if you don't open holes.....it doesn't matter who the receivers are, or who the runners are, without an efficient OL in front of Eli, your offense is not going to function....
This is the problem with the front office...we've won two SB's with linebackers you can't remember the names of....we've pulled TE's out of our ass that performed efficiently......we won a SB with the worst running attack in the NFL.....it was only because Eli had his only "elite" year of his career, that this team overcame the deficiencies of the OL.....and because of that, the front office thought, he can do it again.....well, it's finally come back to bite them in the ass.....
Now the front office had to make a decision...fix the team, or try to repeat as SB champs....we know which direction they went....they still think this team is a few players away from the big show....the decisions of the last three years, will set this team back a few more....
Reason I say this is because of the track record of this front office......the way they draft....the free agents they sign.....what is their plan? Is it to make the playoffs at all cost of the future? So you may make the playoffs, one year, and then you wait 2-3-4 years to make it again?
There was no plan after 2011.....they had a SB MVP QB, and they did not protect him with an OL.....
Pugh and Richburg? How has Pugh looked this year? Have to hope that it is an injury he is playing with, that is his reason for the mistakes he has made....Richburg? Until we see hi play a few seasons at center, do we really know what we have? He certainly looks like a player.....I hope he is a player....I hope Schwartz comes back, and they put him at RG, because Richburg has played the position better than he has at LG....
After last night, and this weekend, there is still hope for this Giant team.....
A few have posted on this forum, maybe Romo doesn't last the year.....maybe Murray is burnt out by the end of the season....The vaunted Eagle offense can be stopped....and guess what? Washington is back in the mix......
The NFL, seems to be a week to week, situation....the media in Boston was burying the Pats after the Chiefs game....now it's a Brady/Peyton showdown again, and the balance of power in the AFC is up for grabs again....
It's the same in the NFC East....only problem for the Giants is, too many key players are injured or playing with injuries......
They have had two weeks to rest....two weeks to prepare....a win, and anything is possible.....but a loss, with two weeks to prepare, will probably be devastating for this team....
After watching the NFL, week after week, the game is not decided on paper....that's why they play the games.....
The front office could have had this team in a better position, this year, if it had a plan after 2011....
WRs are some of the least important players in the game? That is absolute nonsense.
WRs are some of the least important players in the game? That is absolute nonsense.
Are they more important than OL? Defensive front 7?
They are more importants that TE and RB but lets not get carried away with how important they are..
Again, where are all these lineman he missed on in the draft at positions they drafted. The list is who.
The NFL is proven you can find G all over including UDFA and 'castoffs'. See Dallas, see Evan Mathis, See Rich Suebert, etc, etc, etc
You cant plan based upon guys having career injuries
He signed the best FA C who never missed a game in 5 years and then could not stay healthy. His Prob Bowl G was essentially done at the age of 30 in a league where G play until 34-35.
Again, he has had to replace players at skill positions that had career altering injuries: Smith, Phillips, Nicks, Thomas, Wilson, Jones. That requires using picks you do not anticipate having to use. No other franchise in the league has had to deal with that - none
Can't be a very long list.
But failing to properly maintain the OL is his greatest failing to date because the OL is what protects the scarcest commodity in pro football - a true franchise QB. Reese is lucky as hell that Eli is still playing. The OL they have fielded for the last couple of seasons could have gotten the QB seriously hurt. And what's worse, there is no stability in sight. This current OL is charitably described as a work in progress.
Compound this with the fact that many of the players they have drafted when they should have been investing higher picks in the OL have been outright flops. Further compound by the non-football injuries and medical issues that have robbed them of some high picks, and you have the current team, a very mediocre assembly at best.
Our top two TEs are not draft picks. One of them was out of football.
If it were not for Victor Cruz, the WR area would be a major need (Randle still really hasn't panned out).
The jury is still out on Williams, but the other guys are FAs
The starting five OL makes up half the starting offense. It's why we're focused there, but they haven't done a really good job across the board.
Our top two TEs are not draft picks. One of them was out of football.
If it were not for Victor Cruz, the WR area would be a major need (Randle still really hasn't panned out).
The jury is still out on Williams, but the other guys are FAs
The starting five OL makes up half the starting offense. It's why we're focused there, but they haven't done a really good job across the board.
I also believe that TE Robinson has potential to be a deep down the seem guy. I understand he hasn't done squat yet but I saw some things in pre-season from him that you can't coach: speed. He was just so raw coming out of college and missing OTAs, camp injuries, etc. I do believe we'll see some more from him as these next 9 games move along.
Last, I think Beckham is for real and in this passing league he'll be a star and deep threat. He just has to stay healthy. If Cruz comes back healthy; Donnell & Robinson develop and Beckham is a true #1 that needs double teaming at times we should be fine on offense next year, year 2 of McAdoo's system where vast improvement should be seen.
But they have to draft better. If they don't, they will be a .500 type team. And we'll keep bitching about the coaching.
The Giants talent level across the board has suffered because of five bad drafts (2008-12).
This is an absolutely true statement. We had too many "reaches" or chance picks that didn't work out.
However, the last two drafts have been promising......I think the calls for Reese's head is a bit premature, and I want to see what his plan is for this offseason.
Yes Reese waited too long. He inherited a great line that was partially composed of undrafted and low round pick players. I think he overlooked how much effort has to go into building a good OL.
Can't be a very long list.
This is why I question the wisdom of those who put Reese as a top five GM. He was given the two hardest things to find - a coach and a QB.
RT - 1 both G - 2's, LT - 4, C-7. His RT was a failure at LT and his other 1st rd OL can't play. Does he get blasted for not spending high draft picks on the OL. He spends them all on defense and there defense is terrible
PIttsburgh spends a ton of high picks on OL and outside of Pouncy have not had good results
Who are the high draft picks Denver has used on the OL - they have 3 "castoff" OL starting
Your premium picks are the 1st and 2nd - outside of Sintim and Austin where has he missed. He does not miss there. His issue is the lack of 3rd rd players and a tendency to draft players with injury history. Anything after that becomes a bonus
Yes Reese waited too long. He inherited a great line that was partially composed of undrafted and low round pick players. I think he overlooked how much effort has to go into building a good OL.
he was around for the offensive line's collapse in the seasons after the SB in 2000. If that was in fact his thinking, he should have known better.
it's hard to win like that.
Order of importance,,,,
QB, OL, wr, rb.....
Again, where are all these lineman he missed on in the draft at positions they drafted. The list is who.
The NFL is proven you can find G all over including UDFA and 'castoffs'. See Dallas, see Evan Mathis, See Rich Suebert, etc, etc, etc
You cant plan based upon guys having career injuries
He signed the best FA C who never missed a game in 5 years and then could not stay healthy. His Prob Bowl G was essentially done at the age of 30 in a league where G play until 34-35.
Again, he has had to replace players at skill positions that had career altering injuries: Smith, Phillips, Nicks, Thomas, Wilson, Jones. That requires using picks you do not anticipate having to use. No other franchise in the league has had to deal with that - none
SO you don't draft a young talented OL because you have Sean Ohara but you do draft guys like Barden, Travis Beckham, Jernigan and Randle because you need depth at WR.
Your reasoning is exactly the point. Reese doesn't look ahead at the OL like he did at other position groups. They drafted Kiwi when they had both Stray and Osi. They drafted JPP as well. They Prince because he was a great player and Reese highly values DBs and depth there. Unger was a very highly rated player. He just happens to play on the OL where AGAIN until last year and the Giants line was a joke Reese had no choice but to grab an OL. Pugh who at this point is looking like he may have to move positions so before we pat Jerry on the back lets pray Pugh bounces back ASAP
Of course the draft is a crap shoot and no GM is perfect but to pretend signing FA's and drafting guys in the later rounds isn't the same as going for more highly rated earlier picks and is ultimate Reese apologist move.
So now in 9 years as GM he's drafted 8 receivers in the first 3 rounds and 3 OLs. Those two in the last trwo years when OL is a mess. Anmd WR iosn't all that deep either despite all the bigs he's made there.
Maybe he just isn't a top tier GM?
The wheels of the bus had to have been seen when Reggie Mc,DD, and O'Hara, at their respective ages, gave you the best they had in the SB,and that it was going to go down hill from there.
'Wasting' a 1st or 2nd on an OL, if that were to ultimately be the case, would have been worth the try.
Same with LB.
You can definitely make an argument that they didn't do enough in the previous years, where they made the mistake of assuming certain players were healthy enough and certain project players were ready to step up.
Hakeem Nicks is the only first rounder who was sure fire then productive since 2009. Everyone else was kinda just a baffling pic.
2008: K. Phillips(32) - first OL after Phillips C. Rachal(39) and M. Pollak(59)
T. Thomas(64) - J. Greco(65) J. Zuttah(83)
M.Manningham(95) - C. Reinhardt(96) O. Cousins(99)that is it until well into the 4th of bad OL
2009: H. Nicks(29) the first OL taken after Nicks was Eben Britton(39) Levitre(51) worth it over Nicks - no
Sintim was drafted - bad. I actually thought they would look at Loadholdt figuring Deihl at LT
Beatty(60) first OL taken after Beatty was Brewster(75) out of league in 2010. Then you have A. Cladwell with 19 career starts and out of league in 2012, then 2 more G's. Keep in mind that Snee is 26 yrs old and top 5 at his position. That is the OL drafted in the 1st 3 rds
2010: JPP(15) lupati & Pouncey were after - Bulaga was 1st T taken after JPP and can't play LT. Saffold(33) could not play LT and is now a G.
Joseph(46) 1st OL taken after him was V. Ducasse(61) then C. Brown(64)
C. Jones(76) first OL taken after him was JD Walton. @nd was S. Luavo(92)and M. Johnson(98) both G. That is it until 4th
2011: Prince(19) 5 OL taken after Prince in the 1st. Costanzo, Watkins, Carpenter, Carimi, Sherrod - really
Austin(52) bad pick. However, in terms of OL R. Hudson(55) & M. Gilbert(63) only OL picked after him
Jernigan(83) to replace Manningham. J. Reid(85) J. Barksdale(92) That is it until the 4th RD
2012: You can debate the Wilson pick, but Glenn was not viewed as a T due to his weight. Schwartz is the best OL of that rd
Randle(63) first OL picked after him J. LeRibeus(71) and his 1 career start. D. Stevenson(74) B. Brooks(76)
Jayron Holsey(93) - last player in 3rd round at 94 OL T. Bergstrom, with 9 career appearances
2013: Pugh picked 1st. Hankins picked 49 - no OL picked in 2rd after Hankins
picked Moore(81) H. Thorton and B. Williams only OL picked after Moore in Round - Williams already out of NFL
Where are all these misses on OL. Sintim was an awful pick. Autin turned into a bad pick, but the OL picked after him are not good players. You want to rip him for those picks OK, but there is very little passing on OL in the 1st 3 rounds
Again, the team drafting matters as much as the player being selected.
Which is where Reese's failures at the skill position players hit home. He repeatedly selected players that were poor fits for Gilbride & Coughlin's offense. Reasoning somehow they would adapt to those players and not the other way around.
Reese is a failure as a GM and should be fired for that. Instead, Gilbride left and know Reese looks a little smarter because this new offense is easier to find parts for.
Again, the team drafting matters as much as the player being selected.
Which is where Reese's failures at the skill position players hit home. He repeatedly selected players that were poor fits for Gilbride & Coughlin's offense. Reasoning somehow they would adapt to those players and not the other way around.
Reese is a failure as a GM and should be fired for that. Instead, Gilbride left and know Reese looks a little smarter because this new offense is easier to find parts for.
Yeah...but it goes both ways. Many successful coaches adapt their system to fit the talent that they have. This is where Coughlin and Gilbride failed in my opinion. David Wilson is a prime example. You have to find a way to go around your "system" when you have a dynamic playmaker and find ways to get him the ball.
My main problem with Reese is the same I had with Accorsi. Neglect the O-line the LBs early in drafts and then rely on coaches to develop a bunch of late round draft picks and rookie free agents at those positions.
They had issues on the ends, not inside, though. Boothe, Baas, and Snee weren't completely useless at that time. McKenzie was pretty bad in pass pro though, and Diehl a serviceable LT. The OT's are far better now, but the inside blocking isn't.
draft process. They seem to have a higher drafting priority for the defensive line than protecting Eli. Its almost like young kids trading baseball cards.
Rather than drafting for need they are drafting by name.
Wilson was a nice kid but there were 5 offensive lineman drafted right after him that were starters right away.
18 players in those 3 position groups. 3 OL one TE in Travis Beckum whom I consider a receiver as he was never an in-line TE, one LB and 1 RB
Please why cant some people just admit he doesn't like to spend higher picks in general on certain position groups.
And lets be honest, if the OL wasn't a fucking mess he wouldn't have grabbed Pugh and Richberg either. Look no further than this year. Martin was much mnore highly rated than Richberg. ODJ was also very highly rated. He grabbed a WR. Then went to OL. Its his philosophy
So the simple answer to the original post is yes. It was yes and will be yes no matter how many people post all the info they want.
I think the biggest factor that no one seems to acknowledge is that Rich Seubert and Shaun O'Hara both suffered catastophic injuries that ended their time with the Giants prematurely. They both could have played at a decent level for 2 more seasons before they got hurt.
Free agent pickups just haven't worked out. Shawn Andrews and Sean Locklear both played very well for the Giants when they were inserted into the lineup, but neither could stay healthy. David Baas was the highest rated center available in free agency when the Giants acquired - he played well at times, and contributed towards the championship in 2011, but again he couldn't stay healthy. Same thing so far with Geoff Schwartz - another highly rated free agent who hasn't been able to contribute due to an injury.
Despite all of that, the Giants still were able to acquire Will Beatty, Justin Pugh, and Weston Richburg at times when there was a need for them. Beatty played well enough to earn a 2nd contract (he would have been the highest rated OT in free agency had the Giants let him walk), and Pugh and Richburg look to have promising careers so far.
And then there's the story of Chris Snee who made the Pro-bowl for the Giants in 2012, and then inexplicably had a huge fall off and is now retired just 2 years later. Given all the circumstances, I'm not sure what else people actually expected Reese to do to try and keep things intact upfront. The team had other needs that had to be addressed over the last 6 seasons - it seemed to me like the appropriate balance of attention was given to the OLine. Things just didn't work out ideally.
From 2007 - 2012 Reese only drafted 1 guy in the top 3 rounds. Beatty in the 2nd. Reese was not doing enough for the OL. I don't by the argument that we should build our OL with some other team's cast-offs. More times than not those guys are not worth the money we spend on them.
It's good Reese started fixing the line in the past 2 year but it is too little, too late. 2 players can't fix 6 years of neglect.
Move Richburg to OC next year and Schwartz to OG. If we are lucky and do land a decent RT we can move Pugh inside where he'll be a stud OG. Our OL automatically becomes above average.
Assuming Cruz recovers and can play at a high level, we'd be OK at WR and I still believe Donnell & Robinson will develop and be a super solid TE combination.
Stay healthy, learn McAdoo's offense this year, and next year we'll compete. I am actually more worried about this defense as there are many injured & aging (Beason, Jenkins, Patterson, Rolle) faces along with JPP needing a contract.