And no, I don't think McAdoo needs to be fired immediately because I don't even think it's the system. But how many runs up the gut are going to get stuffed? How many passes are going to get dropped? Bad throws, barely anyone making plays. It's just not competitive.
You cannot beat the Colts by getting one first down on your first 3 or 4 drives and putting up ONE field goal in the first half. You just can't. If you punt the ball back to that offense enough times, they are going to score. No one in this league has stopped them this year and if you're going to beat them, you need to put points on the board. Just a week ago, Ben threw for over 500 yards on these guys and threw 6 TD passes. Meanwhile, it took us until the 3rd quarter to even put together one TD drive.
Why it really bothers me is because (and I know I'll just get called an apologist, but whatever) I really thought that Fewell did some of his best work in a while tonight early on. We showed a ton of looks, we disguised a lot of blitzes, we had Luck confused, put hits on him.. it was the kind of game where if our offense had actually been able to put the Colts behind and put pressure on them, who knows what could have happened.
Ayers was the best player on the field for this team. He was all over the place. Williams was awful. Hosley was bad (you can't jump a route when you're m2m without help up top) and there were plays to be made that we left on the field (Rolle dropped an INT, DRC let Hilton steal an INT and turn it into a TD)
Anytime you give up that many points and that many yards, you can't say the defense played well. But I thought the game plan was really good off the bat and had our offense been remotely competitive, this could have been a ballgame. But for the 2nd time in 3 weeks, it was just completely inept.
I don't know if it's a talent issue (I tend to think so without Cruz and Jennings especially) but you just cannot win football games playing offense like this. Especially not against the Colts.
The DRC fuck up really opened the flood gates. I rather see what he did in the first half, than playing that soft zone.
This was Luck's 5th straight road game with 350+ pass yards. You have to understand that this is not an offense anyone is just going to "stop"
If you're going to beat them, you have to put points on the board. I said this all week long. 3 points in the first half is just not competitive. I'm sorry. The offense was horrendous tonight.
I think DRC's biggest mistake was trying to make that INT when he should have just batted it away. But, that's not why the Giants lost. This offense is just absolutely terrible.
Entire pregame was basically ESPN showing how much Colts sucked when they had to play zone against specific formations, how they got consistently torched because their secondary had zero idea about how to play zones. It was almost embarrassing watching those highlights.
And what happens when we line up? We run the ball or split our WRs in a 2 WR set.
This is embarrassing and we flat out got out coached. Tom has stripped this offense down to the most vanilla, predictable, and uninspiring collection of plays I've ever seen. The common demoninator to the 2nd/3rd and 10 draw play lies with Tom. It was never Gilbride, and a lot of us should repent quite frankly, because it was complete misplaced criticism on our part.
I think it was Chris Collinsworth earlier in the season on the Sunday night game who said when McAdoo got the job, he had to sit down with Tom Coughlin and TC went in and PERSONALLY APPROVED OR DISAPPROVED every play out of McAdoo's binder.
That's downright scary. And what we're seeing is a direct consequence of that.
McAdoo is a neutered puppy up against animals that have rabies. And it's not his fault.
Tom has to go, sorry its over.
Tom has to go.
I'd feel more comfortable with the concept of "balance" if Coughlin meant balancing yards gained rather than just plays run.
But then they'd gain 90 yds on a pass play in the first Q then spend the rest of the night trying to gain that much on the ground.
Nevermind.
Is this what we've come to? That's a good effort?
You hired the guy, let him have control. Maybe he sucks but let's at least find out.
Hey come on. the glass is half full.
The Giants aren't losing because they're running Peyton Hillis up the middle on third and long. Stop it already.
The Giants aren't losing because they're running Peyton Hillis up the middle on third and long. Stop it already.
we
got
out
coached.
Tom wants us to run the ball no matter what the box looks like.
Tom wants us to have a 3rd and long draw play to Hillis because that's what he's done for 10 years.
Tom thinks we have this game theory optimal offense where it doesnt matter what weakness the defense has. If we line up and execute we win.
Problem is, we don't execute because this coach is over the hill and uninspiring.
Its over. He's done.
Tom had a good run and a hell of a career, but the strategy of the game has passed him by.
It was the pathetic offensive showing which finally caused out defense to cave.
One team was just much more stacked talent wise than the other. It wasn't even close.
Is this what we've come to? That's a good effort?
Read my post. I said anytime you give up point and yardage totals like that you can't consider it a good defensive game.
My point was that I thought he had a good gameplan out of the gates and if we could have actually put some points on the board and maybe put a little pressure on the Colts to have to score, the game could have gone differently.
We lost Prince early.. the 3rd CB we've already lost for the year. We really never had Beason.
I'm just not sure what else you can do as a coach.
And I feel similarly about McAdoo. I don't think he's the reason the offense sucks. I think there's a talent deficiency.. and there's really a talent deficiency without Cruz and Jennings. Parker is awful. I'm losing my patience with Randle. OBJ is the only real weapon we have offensively right now and the line can't run block. It's just brutally bad offense and we will not win football games playing like this.
One team was just much more stacked talent wise than the other. It wasn't even close.
Please, read the entire thread.
we
got
out
coached.
Colts defense is susceptible to one thing: being forced into zone.
We didnt once force them into zone.
We had 2 weeks to prepare, and this is the garbage we come up with? The same plays weve been running all year? The same loaded box runs we've been trying for the past 4 weeks?
This is not about the players.
Its about this head coach whose directing a team with a strategy that is 10 years too old.
This is what happens when you put 6 or 7 guys on your line of scrimmage and run the ball against an 8 man box.
Tom has neutered McAdoo and Manning.
Like I said, I think the biggest problem offensively right now is the talent.. but it probably went beyond just that tonight.
Like I said, I think the biggest problem offensively right now is the talent.. but it probably went beyond just that tonight.
We got out coached. Fewell has nothing to do with this loss.
People have a really hard time admitting the other team beat up on their team. A loss always has to be a question of "fault" as opposed to the quality of one team over the other.
I suppose that just captures the general shittiness the NFL has become. It's not about being better than the other guy...just about being less bad.
that 1st series .. run run run punt? wtf?
We need speed, enthusiasm and talent in so many positions...RB, TE, WR, DE, all 3 LB spots, and Safety.
People have a really hard time admitting the other team beat up on their team. A loss always has to be a question of "fault" as opposed to the quality of one team over the other.
I suppose that just captures the general shittiness the NFL has become. It's not about being better than the other guy...just about being less bad.
This is complete and utter bullshit and I'm tired of hearing it.
You can scheme those things all away.
Our head coach cant scheme his way out of a paper bag right now and that is the problem. He basically lost his challenge flag in his underwear tonight and that sequence of 10seconds totally changed the complexion of the game.
Tom's way to strategy and game planning worked 10 years ago.
It doesnt work anymore today and I cannot understand how people don't see this.
Dilfer said it all. We had 2 weeks to prepare to expose the weakness of Colts defense when they play zone. Instead, we spent the entire game letting them play man coverage and loading the box.
People have a really hard time admitting the other team beat up on their team. A loss always has to be a question of "fault" as opposed to the quality of one team over the other.
I suppose that just captures the general shittiness the NFL has become. It's not about being better than the other guy...just about being less bad.
We're mostly in agreement. I think the talent is more the issue than the coaching. I didn't love the offensive gameplan but every single WR was dropping passes, we have no RB who can replace Jennings' skillset, the OL can't runblock. It's just a mess and it's not competitive offense.
Before Cruz and Jennings went down, it looked like we were starting to click but we haven't been able to replace either guy and it shows.
IND FG A.Vinatieri 31 yd. Field Goal (9-61, 3:35)
IND FG A.Vinatieri 48 yd. Field Goal (6-30, 0:53)
Sorry, you have zero idea about what you're talking about.
Quote:
you're seeing something completely different than I am.
One team was just much more stacked talent wise than the other. It wasn't even close.
Please, read the entire thread.
we
got
out
coached.
Colts defense is susceptible to one thing: being forced into zone.
We didnt once force them into zone.
We had 2 weeks to prepare, and this is the garbage we come up with? The same plays weve been running all year? The same loaded box runs we've been trying for the past 4 weeks?
This is not about the players.
Its about this head coach whose directing a team with a strategy that is 10 years too old.
Quote:
In comment 11956820 Go Terps said:
Quote:
you're seeing something completely different than I am.
One team was just much more stacked talent wise than the other. It wasn't even close.
Please, read the entire thread.
we
got
out
coached.
Colts defense is susceptible to one thing: being forced into zone.
We didnt once force them into zone.
We had 2 weeks to prepare, and this is the garbage we come up with? The same plays weve been running all year? The same loaded box runs we've been trying for the past 4 weeks?
This is not about the players.
Its about this head coach whose directing a team with a strategy that is 10 years too old.
Ah, another believer in magic gameplans. The Steelers have Antonio Brown, Wheaton, Lance Moore and Levon Bell. We don't.
2 weeks to prepare against a defense that has been proven porous against the air.
We line up and run into 8 man boxes.
Solid gameplan.
Like I said, I think the biggest problem offensively right now is the talent.. but it probably went beyond just that tonight.
aren't we the only ones that played the Eagles offense differently, and we got torched.
I wonder, do we even watch game tape to see what works? or are we thinking reverse psychology and assume the opposing team will patch up their deficiencies by the following week...so then we preemptively do something different, rather than do the very thing that worked against said team in previous weeks.
TC is not allowing McAdoo to run the entire show here. Yeah and Randle sucks. And Parker is JAG.
Quote:
We basically played into their strength and allowed them to play a lot of bump and run. The Steelers completely exposed this defense just a week ago and it's almost like we didn't take any notice of it at all.
Like I said, I think the biggest problem offensively right now is the talent.. but it probably went beyond just that tonight.
aren't we the only ones that played the Eagles offense differently, and we got torched.
I wonder, do we even watch game tape to see what works? or are we thinking reverse psychology and assume the opposing team will patch up their deficiencies by the following week...so then we preemptively do something different, rather than do the very thing that worked against said team in previous weeks.
No, losing is a very standard result when you get consistently out coached on a weekly basis.
Arc will do anything than to admit the obvious, including contradciting himself within two sentences.
a) blame the coaching
then
b) blame the talent
Quote:
"We got out coached. Fewell has nothing to do with this loss."
IND FG A.Vinatieri 31 yd. Field Goal (9-61, 3:35)
IND FG A.Vinatieri 48 yd. Field Goal (6-30, 0:53)
Sorry, you have zero idea about what you're talking about.
Read your sentence about Fewell again. It is so stupid I initially thought it was a joke.
I'm not saying we need to outright defeat the opposing team, but there is more than enough talent to be competitive; we're not even competitive.
This team is not the Jags. Not the Bucs. Not the Jets; those guys don't have talent.
The Giants have more than enough talent to be competitive. And mroe often than not since 2012, we have not even been competitive. That's not a mistake or happenstance.
It
is
coaching.
Interesting. I wasn't aware that those two concepts were mutually exclusive.
Quote:
In comment 11956875 Go Terps said:
Quote:
"We got out coached. Fewell has nothing to do with this loss."
IND FG A.Vinatieri 31 yd. Field Goal (9-61, 3:35)
IND FG A.Vinatieri 48 yd. Field Goal (6-30, 0:53)
Sorry, you have zero idea about what you're talking about.
Read your sentence about Fewell again. It is so stupid I initially thought it was a joke.
Semantics, dont waste time.
Interesting. I wasn't aware that those two concepts were mutually exclusive.
not when you frame your argument as you did by first blaming the coaching without saying so,
then making a definitive declaration that it is because of a lack of talent.
so no.
TC is not allowing McAdoo to run the entire show here. Yeah and Randle sucks. And Parker is JAG.
Green Bay is basically a lock to run 5 screens a game between their RB and WRs.
We are lucky to see 1.
This isnt a WC offense or GBs offense.
It's Tom Coughlin's offense.
I do not pretend to understand the fine aspects of constructing a NFL offense.
But to simply demonstrate a point: that this offense has been neutered by Tom Coughlin, I wrote that we do not run screens as often as a WC offense, or GB offense does.
I specifically pointed out screens because they are the most obvious aspect that Tom's team has been missing for over 10 years.
It is not by happenstance that when we recruited a WC offensive coordinator that we suddenly still don't run any screens. This is by specific design; Tom just doesnt want it.
PRECISELY.
people talk about Dallas OLine - keep an eye on the Bills, if all their investments pan out - they are going to have quite the OL
Quote:
If you're blaming the coaches, you must think there is some combination of this current group of players that comprises a good team. And if you think that, I don't know what to tell you.
The Giants aren't losing because they're running Peyton Hillis up the middle on third and long. Stop it already.
we
got
out
coached.
Tom wants us to run the ball no matter what the box looks like.
Tom wants us to have a 3rd and long draw play to Hillis because that's what he's done for 10 years.
Tom thinks we have this game theory optimal offense where it doesnt matter what weakness the defense has. If we line up and execute we win.
Problem is, we don't execute because this coach is over the hill and uninspiring.
Its over. He's done.
Tom had a good run and a hell of a career, but the strategy of the game has passed him by.
I seriously want to meet the teacher who told your parents, "Yes. I had no doubt he will be able to move on to 6th grade. No doubt what so ever."
They lied their asses off and your parents should sue.
How much of that occurred in garbage time?
Quote:
In comment 11956794 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If you're blaming the coaches, you must think there is some combination of this current group of players that comprises a good team. And if you think that, I don't know what to tell you.
The Giants aren't losing because they're running Peyton Hillis up the middle on third and long. Stop it already.
we
got
out
coached.
Tom wants us to run the ball no matter what the box looks like.
Tom wants us to have a 3rd and long draw play to Hillis because that's what he's done for 10 years.
Tom thinks we have this game theory optimal offense where it doesnt matter what weakness the defense has. If we line up and execute we win.
Problem is, we don't execute because this coach is over the hill and uninspiring.
Its over. He's done.
Tom had a good run and a hell of a career, but the strategy of the game has passed him by.
I seriously want to meet the teacher who told your parents, "Yes. I had no doubt he will be able to move on to 6th grade. No doubt what so ever."
They lied their asses off and your parents should sue.
juvenile.
No one thing is that much worse than the next, no less the ONLY reason the team completely blows at this point. Due to numerous injuries - particularly at DB (Prince, McBride, Thurmond, Taylor, Cromartie not playing all of a few games & gimpy when he has played), RB (Jennings, Wilson) & losing Beason & Cruz - there have been a lot of new moving parts every week, which can't make cohesiveness easy. Add in a new offense & you have a clusterfuck.
Nevertheless, I also agree that the coaching has been terrible in too many games this year. Stupid fucking penalties have wrecked many drives & it really does look like the coaches haven't paid any attention at all to how other teams steamrolled a few opponents just a week before the Giants played them.
Reese is to blame. He's ruining Eli mannings prime years.
It's amazing how many morons thought this team would compete this year. It's embarrassing that ppl were so blinded by their homerism that they thought we'd be halfway decent.
Could easily be a talent gap as well, but you'd have to get to the bottom of the preparation problem first. At this point, I'd have to thank Coughlin but ask him to retire and dismiss the rest of his staff.
In the front office, make it clear that everyone's on a short leash (and I'd go so far as to dismiss Ross too), and add some more scouts to the mix to see if there is consensus on picks going forward or if further changes are needed there too.
Did you think Reese and Ross swinging and missing on talent will some how not impact us? Also, add injury, age, and degradation to our original top 5 OL we once had, and we weren't prepared for that sudden decline.
Greg,
I been saying that for a while. Since he came aboard our drafts have gone downhill. He got promoted too. What has he done to get promoted? I wish Reese would go back to running the draft, as Director of College Scouting & do his GM duties like he did in 2007.
A lot of teams run new offenses and don't look this bad in year one. You can't win games playing offense like this in the NFL.
I don't so much blame McAdoo but the Giants offense has been mostly dogshit for 2 full calendar years now regardless of system and it's got to get fixed. And though I don't blame the system, I thought our game planning sucked on that side of the ball. They had a world of trouble stopping the Steelers just one week ago and we couldn't exploit any of that.
The reliance on the run may, and I stress MAY, be influenced by TC, but the passing game shows very little creativity. It doesn't help that the only WR worth shit is Beckham, but that's what it is.
As far as Fewell, he's no Belichick, but it's hard to play defense when you've got DB's who were delivering pizzas a couple of weeks ago. I thought, for the most part, he had a good plan for last night.
A lot of teams run new offenses and don't look this bad in year one. You can't win games playing offense like this in the NFL.
I don't so much blame McAdoo but the Giants offense has been mostly dogshit for 2 full calendar years now regardless of system and it's got to get fixed. And though I don't blame the system, I thought our game planning sucked on that side of the ball. They had a world of trouble stopping the Steelers just one week ago and we couldn't exploit any of that.
Dude, they suck. Fells wasn't in football, and the other guy was building Tiki bars or whatever. Come on. I am tired of these cheaper, project players who have potential but need 198231832 years to develop.
When you whiff on prospects and can't get return on your investment you're fucked! How many offensive players did we swing and miss on?
Everyone expects that Eli missed. That route looked to be a post, but Parker ran a shallow. It's funny because Eli doesn't yell and scream like Peyton does. I wish he would. If that route was a post and Eli throw it that way, and Parker runs a shallow cross, then it looks worse. WHat was the route called? Just like Eli threw away a pass in the Atlanta game, and people thought he missed OBJ.
That fucker dropped passes and couldn't catch a simple quick pass. So is it too much to consider Parker messed the route up? Eli won't say shit, and will take the blame which is noble but that's getting annoying game after game, season after season.
Our offense is tailored around our personnel. That's what BM said from day 1. Our talent sucks so we are a conservative team offensively for year 1. That's what I expected and that's what I want to stick to. We simply are not good enought to open this offense up.
TC says play above the Xs and Os. As in make defenders miss and up your individual game. Nice in theory, for the fact we can't game step 1, which is catch the fucking ball.
We are a work in progress with no talent. Even with Cruz healthy I didn't think we were very good. We need talent. Start with the OL. Dallas got it right for once and went OL 3 times and now they are damn good.
Our OL sucks, and our skill players suck. And please, get RR off the fucking team!!! I truly loathe him as a player. How do you keep fucking up routes in 2 different systems?! Wasn't he deemed "NFL ready" by Reese or Ross?
We need talent ASAP.
2 Our WR's (besides a rookie, OBJ) are all sub-par. RR would be a 3rd at best on many teams. Parker should have been yanked early -- CW has done more to deserve a shot at being #3 than parker. And if it's a XYZ issue, put CW outside and move OBJ inside to get your best 3 out there in 3-wide sets.
3 Our TE's are average at best. Donell may have the talent to grow into a threat, but right now he's looking like the raw guy he is.
4 Our OL, is well below average. You can't run ANY offense with a sh*t show Oline like ours. The WC passing attack with short, quick throws has helped to mask some deficiencies. But they show up on every 3rd and long where Eli has to take a deeper drop.
5 TC has got to cut the sh*t about run/pass balance like that is an end in and of itself. Balance is only useful as a tool to keep D's off balance and keep the LB and Safety play honest. If I can run every play and get 4 yards, then F the pass. If every pass is open, then F the run. Go with what is working.
6 The drive conceding draws on 3 and long are brutal. I get that the OL can't pass protect well, I get that the WR are dropping balls, I get that we don't need a risk of a turn over, but if the play is going to be THAT draw to a SLOW RB with no space, then you might as well be punting on 3rd down and save yourself the potential fumble or injury to the RB.
7 Fewell -- all you need to know with him is Kiwi is still our starting DE. It sums up PF perfectly. Kiwi is utterly mediocre and PF is the same. It's classic PF that he prefers to have the accountable player who will be where he's supposed to be, but doesn't have the speed or athleticism to ever come within a sniff of the QB and who watches RBs regularly cut around him to the outside, rather than play an erratic but playmaking young DE. That mediocrity permeates the D. Healthy or riddled with injuries, this D rarely gets that crucial stop.
Arc, you're happy that PF had a good first half game plan -- that's a pretty low bar. BTW, the suck on our Blitzes has everything to do with practice, design and situational call -- last night was much better than most. BTW that joke report Eric posted was just about right (blitz plan -- engage the blocker directly...) Give me Jeff Fisher or Ryan as DC and within a year our blitzes would be much more effective.
There is also a distinct lack of talent at LB. But that has to fall in good measure on the architect of the D for the last 5 years. If nothing else, Reese listens to his coaches and tries to fill their requests. JWilliams was abused. For a supposed "speedy LB" he wastes it all while hesitating to make the tackle. Instead of attacking the ball carrier he stops, stutter steps and watches the guy pick up 4-5 extra yards. He should be a missile committed to the tackle --instead he's soft.
But, yes we are devastated on D by injuries, so PF has built in pass. But I truly believe, had PF had the benefit of all his players being healthy, we would still only be in the realm of 10th ranked D. Not bad, but never great.
You hired the guy, let him have control. Maybe he sucks but let's at least find out.
How many passes did the WR's drop last night?
The defense in probably it's worst state of the season played its arse off, PF went for it. They just couldn't sustain it without help from the offense.
The problem early was even though PF's gameplan was generating hits on Luck and being effective in general, Luck repeatedly found the target #57 was covering for completions. A theme of the evening.
Still need more personnel, short at DE, Kennard's the only LB I'd keep as a starter, CB and S will need infusions after this season too.
I liked seeing different looks and more pressure and hits on the QB. But at the end of the day, they still racked up yards and points as most guys will if you have numerous weak links whom you've identified (cough.. 57.. cough.. 28...)
In any event. Offensive showings like last night won't win you any games in this league.
This team has SO many holes to fill. The QB situation makes the rebuild difficult because he's still capable of playing but to get a good enough team around him will take another few years and by then, his skill will likely have eroded enough to where he's no longer a major part of the solution. That's what makes this all so difficult. The timing is bad.
Entire pregame was basically ESPN showing how much Colts sucked when they had to play zone against specific formations, how they got consistently torched because their secondary had zero idea about how to play zones. It was almost embarrassing watching those highlights.
And what happens when we line up? We run the ball or split our WRs in a 2 WR set.
This is embarrassing and we flat out got out coached. Tom has stripped this offense down to the most vanilla, predictable, and uninspiring collection of plays I've ever seen. The common demoninator to the 2nd/3rd and 10 draw play lies with Tom. It was never Gilbride, and a lot of us should repent quite frankly, because it was complete misplaced criticism on our part.
I think it was Chris Collinsworth earlier in the season on the Sunday night game who said when McAdoo got the job, he had to sit down with Tom Coughlin and TC went in and PERSONALLY APPROVED OR DISAPPROVED every play out of McAdoo's binder.
That's downright scary. And what we're seeing is a direct consequence of that.
McAdoo is a neutered puppy up against animals that have rabies. And it's not his fault.
Tom has to go, sorry its over.
Tom has to go.
100% correct- I was stunned that the Giants, with 2 weeks to prepare, did none of the things that were obvious to everyone who studied the Colts defense. Also, punting in Indy territory was ridiculous- you have to seize victory. You can't punt your way to a win.
OL: Clearly below-average, not as bad as last year but that's not saying much
WR: Clearly below-average with Vic out for the year, Beckham is a stud but everyone else is just a guy including Randle
RB: Absolute trash outside of Jennings. Andre has flashed impressive power but I've been disappointed with him
TE: Average-ish, Donnell can make plays on the ball but he's too slow to be a real game-breaker type
There's no one offensive group where we look above-average in terms of talent.
Good news is, we'll add more OLineman this off-season. A healthy Cruz/Beckham/not-Randle WR trio will be an upgrade next season. We should add RB depth (we desperately need a speed back, a healthy Wilson would've been a wild-card) and Williams will hopefully be better. And hopefully by next year we've figured out how to balance "balance" with "unleash Eli".
Last year we were a 7-9 team who looked like a 5 win team. This year, we look like a 7-9 team who deserve to be a 7 win team. That's progress lol. This wasn't going to be a one year fix and hopefully this offense finishes the season strong and improves next year. Thank God we have Beckham to root for.