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| Think like a pro Colin@gbn : 10:04 am : link : reply Morning guys: Never too early to be talking draft especially when you wake up looking at a likely top 10 pick. At the same time, only a football idiot would be saying in the first week in Movember that a team should be taking this or that specific player. If the Giants do end up picking in the 9-10 range on April 30th would they take a RB just for the sake of upgrading at the position. Almost assuredly not. However, would they have a guy like Gurley, who many scouts rate as the best player in college football - and I had one scout tell me he is the best non-QB prospect he's seen in the past 10 years - on their short list. They'd be crazy not to. Ask yourself this question. If the Giants could take either DeMarco Murray or Zach Martin off the Cowboys roster who makes them a better team. In fact, ask yourself which one of Murray, Martin, Dez Bryant or Jasen Witton would make the Giants a better team. And anyone who even thinks Martin wouldn't be 4th on the list should be sentenced to sit in the corner with a proverbial 'BBI dunce' capon their head. In fact, the whole 'wow look what Zach Martin has done for the Cowboys' stuff is really kind of annoying. No question Martin has been a very good player, but the truth is that on almost every metric - points per game, sacks allowed, and even Murray's average yardage per carry - are all actually down this year over last. And if anybody has noticed, Romo is the only prominent starting NFL QB whose been hurt. (Indeed, if anybody bothered to notice the Giants pass blocking metrics are actually slightly better than those of the Cowboys, although the Cowboys obviously are much better running the ball). As well, the whole we should take an OL because look what's it down for the Cowboys comparison for the Giants is kind of non-sensical because Dallas already had their offensive impact players - Romo, Murray, Witten, Bryant and Williams in place. Which isn't to say the Giants won't take an OL with their top pick this year. Scherff of Iowa in particular is a very good prospect who would make some sense if the Giants were of jettisoning Beatty because of cap issues at some point down the road. However, the 'we can't take a RB because we have too many needs at other positions so we're going to take a OT - is another borderline non-sensical because if the Giants did take a Scherff or Ogbuehi or Peat they aren't going to do much more than sit next year because neither Beatty nor Pugh are going anywhere anytime soon (or at least in 2015). In fact, the issues the Giants have on the OL are at OG and one isn't going to address those with an OT. Its says here that the Giants aren't going anywhere until the get a pass rush. In fact, they can address every other position on the board multiple times over and they still aren't going anywhere until they get a legit pass rush. Unfortunately, its does not look like it is necessarily going to a great draft year for DEs but one guy people might want to take a look at tomorrow is Baylor's Shawn Oakman when they play Oklahoma at noon. (At least that's what the pros will be doing anyway). Oakman is #2 for the Bears and he's a hot top ten prospect right now. He's an odd size at almost 6-9, 280 and there are some character concerns (he was kicked out of Penn State a while back); he also lacks sprinter type speed, but he's still a good athlete who is just starting to scratch the surface. I would also expect guys like Landen Collins and Shaq Thompson, who have been mentioned above, to at least be on the Giants short list of guys to check out. We are not as high on Collins as maybe some others. He is a very productive player who is very physical in the box and would certainly address a huge need, but he isn't all that fast and really isn't all that smooth in coverage and if I am using a top ten pick on a safety I would think he would have to be able to cover. Meanwhile, Thompson is a phenomenal athlete who is actually starting at RB these days for the Huskies; he's not all that big but can really run and would figure to be a huge upgrade over J Williams at WLB (who killed the Giants against the Colts although one would have thought that at some point the Giants might have seen that #57 couldn't cover either of the Colts TEs and maybe used a DB there on some of those critical 3rd downs when the game was still on.) |
Colin, excellent stuff, thanks for bringing some logic to the thread. You might have me thinking differently on Gurly if he is available. Love your website.
Good points on the OG vs OT issue. Where is Oakman currently projected to go in the 2015 draft? I don't get to watch Baylor much but will be doing so tomorrow. At 6'9" can he push inside to DT on passing downs?
I was also wondering what you thought of the TE/WR from Mich, Funchess. I've been beating the drum for a few years (really liked Fleener) for an athletic TE threat for Eli. It would seem that a guy like Funchess would create match-up problems all over the place.
might improve this shit offense
I think people just want a reason to complain when things aren't going the way they want them to. When your team sucks, suddenly everyone who had a different opinion about things in the offseason was right.
With this teams luck, Martin would probably be on IR right now anyway.
might improve this shit offense
I'd rather see them take Amari Cooper if available. Even a decent offensive line could run block when you always have the safeties playing off with Cruz, Cooper, and Beckham on the field. They would perpetually be running into a 6 man box. Play 1 RB 1 TE 3 WR personnel constantly. That's probably a pipe dream.
I also desperately want them to get Duke Johnson in the second. He would be quite a threat in this offense and would be a great outlet for Eli.
Jennings had success with the offense early on, I like to think the line may be almost passable at times and Williams is just that bad.
Couldn't agree more Acid. I said in the other thread where Colin's post is from that of the top 20 rushers so far this year 2 are 1st rd picks. The top 10 include a 7th rounder, two 6th rd picks and a UDFA. I wouldn't be pissed with Gurley but we can fill the need of a 3rd down back in later rounds
The whole "de-emphasized" thing has been so overblown. If you could draft a talent like Adrian Peterson, Jamaal Charles, or LeSean McCoy with a top 10 pick, you wouldn't do it? Patrick Willis, or Luke Keuchly? You would have to be out of your mind not to strongly consider it. These guys are game-changers.
I'm sure its not the most likely scenario for this team next year but no way would you just blow it off if the talent is there. Every position on offense and defense can make a huge impact and is worth a 1st pick, or even top 10.
Just my opinion Anish but he reminds me of Jeremy Maclin. Speed but also a good route runner and hands. There was an NFL.com story where execs told Daniel Jeremiah that he reminds them of Odell Beckham, Jr. among others. Cris Carter said he's the best Alabama receiver since Ozzie Newsome, putting him ahead of Julio Jones and even went as far to say he has elements of Randy Moss.
I could see Duke flying up draft boards if teams don't already rate him highly. I expect him to have a good combine. IMO he could also drop to the late second potentially. Tons of good running backs right now, it's impossible to predict accurately. His vision and ability to break tackles for his size is impressive. His pass catching, shiftiness, and quickness would be awesome to have in this offense where he could get the ball in space. I have no idea about his pass blocking or durability going forward though.
Previously they did, but you can't fault them for that forever. Its been paid plenty of attention to since then.
This
The whole "de-emphasized" thing has been so overblown. If you could draft a talent like Adrian Peterson, Jamaal Charles, or LeSean McCoy with a top 10 pick, you wouldn't do it? Patrick Willis, or Luke Keuchly? You would have to be out of your mind not to strongly consider it. These guys are game-changers.
I'm sure its not the most likely scenario for this team next year but no way would you just blow it off if the talent is there. Every position on offense and defense can make a huge impact and is worth a 1st pick, or even top 10.
Agreed.
On a team in desperate need of game-chagers at nearly every position, no player/position is off limits.
All of them should be in play.
Anyway, Dayne was a ground-pounder with almost no receiving skills and a ton of tread on his tires when he left Wisconsin. He was not a speed guy, his measurable didn't wow anyone. He was just hyperproductive at a major college program.
Gurley has limited tread on his tires, had more catches in one CFB season than Dayne had in his career, and is much, much more athletic than Dayne. It is not a fitting comparison at all.
As I mentioned on the other thread, the reason that only 2/20 rushers are 1st rounders is because so few go in the first round. None in the last two drafts. David Wilson is probably one of the 2-3 least productive first round RBs of the last ten plus years because of his neck injury, and even he flashed. Running backs may disappoint but generally first round running backs who do so still tend to have productive careers. That's certainly not the case for QBs, and for a good many other positions as well. Running backs who disappoint are platoon players or 3rd down backs, OL who disappoint are jobless in three years.
Everyone, including Colin needs to remember that everytime they gush about a RB, TE, WR over an OL.
Martin is worth far more then Murray, Witten or Bryant for his versatility alone.
Everyone, including Colin needs to remember that everytime they gush about a RB, TE, WR over an OL.
Martin is worth far more then Murray, Witten or Bryant for his versatility alone.
It's about the improvement over a replacement. A good but not great OL is much less of a dropoff from Martin than Murray or especially Bryant is to a starting caliber RB or WR. They have rare physical gifts that can't be taught. Martin is very good at what he does, but the skillset is replaceable if at a lower level.
Oh my god....it all makes sense now!
The reverse is seldom true.
The reverse is seldom true.
OL and RB seem to also depend on scheme. While guys like Martin have looked good as rookies, the top OT as a rookie from the 2013 Draft was probably Pugh even though 3 went in the Top 4
The reverse is seldom true.
Sure, a good OL (with 3 or more above average OL, of which an individual OL is merely a part) can make an average running back look good and a good RB look great. Less so for the WR, but certainly they rarely post good numbers when the QB is on his back or in traction. But an individual offensive lineman is just a part of the equation. You could replace any one person on that line with Zach Martin and our running game would probably still struggle. You could replace Zach Martin on the Dallas OL with Weston Richburg or any other good but not great OL and they'll likely continue to run the ball well. Replace DeMarco Murray with a middling running back and Dallas's rushing game goes from arguably the best in football to pretty average.
we all know that eli needs time. he can't beat you with his legs. that means we - maybe more than almost any team in the league - need a good line. give me a good line, eli, and marginal skill position players and we'll be in the hunt. keep giving us this crap o-line and we will continue to miss the playoffs.
This is pretty accurate. You don't need to have elite skill position talent, but you need particular skillsets. Good QBs can make incomplete WRs look great, but if you have fumblitis or you're slow to the line good OLs aren't going to do much.
The obvious counter to this is poor scouting. Isn't it?
Just because the 2nd round pick on Randle wasn't a great pick, doesn't mean you need to use a 1st to fill the position. And Parker costs nothing and is playing due to inuries. he was the 6th or 7th WR in camp, how many teams have better 6th/7th WR's on their depth charts?
Everyone, including Colin needs to remember that everytime they gush about a RB, TE, WR over an OL.
Martin is worth far more then Murray, Witten or Bryant for his versatility alone.
Martin is worth far more?
Let me ask a question. If the entire league redrafted right now, do where do you think Martin gets taken, in comparison with the other 3?
I would guess far after Murray and Bryant. And only ahead of Witten because of age, but Witten is a Hall of Fame TE, so even that's questionable.
I love me some OL, but Martin is absolutely not worth more than those guys. That's absolutely ridiculous,
If we do end up with a top 10 pick, you get the biggest game changer available, and unless Gregory is available I think I would go Offense with Gurley or Cooper. This league has de-emphasized defense in general and this team has only shown it is in desperate need of play makers on the offensive side of the ball.
I'd like to see how Washington develops over the year, and if he can become a player in this Offense, especially on the outside. And at RB it will be interesting to see how Williams develops and Jennings when he comes back. This will help indicate which is more important in either leaning Gurley or Cooper. I am indifferent as both are amazing players that can take over games. Looking at our WR core however, it would be incredible to pair to young game changing WR's next to each other for the rest of Eli's tenure. Beckham, Cooper, Cruz, Randle, Washington, vet FA would be ridiculous. This is a pipe dream under coughlin though, over emphasizing balance. A 3 WR base set with those guys would be incredible to see though.
Teams need receivers who the QB trusts and will catch the ball when thrown to them. The chargers a few years back were humming with garbage WRs off the street because the receivers knew where to be, Rivers threw them the ball, and they caught it. Eli should be forcing balls into double coverage over throwing to a wide open Parker at this point. Randle is marginally better than Parker in that he gets open about the same amount but drops less passes.
Try reading the damn thing and then making a counterpoint, not just repeating the same shit over and over again without any reasoning behind it.
My point is you can't really ever tell.
McCoy (and his talent) went 53rd overall.
Knowshon Moreno went 12th and Donald Brown 27th. In this same draft. Now it looks insane but at the time of the draft you had no idea.
Try reading the damn thing and then making a counterpoint, not just repeating the same shit over and over again without any reasoning behind it.
Haha, this is exactly what I was thinking when I read BigBlueCanes post about Martin being more valuable than Dez and Murray.
Great post.
The Chargers in 2013 (assuming that's the year you're talking about) are an interesting example to look at.
They used their RB's and TE's more than WR's. Woodhead had 75 catches and Mathews another 25+ for over 100 receptions from RB's. And Gates caught caught around 75 passes and Ladarius Green another 20 for almost 100 passes from TE's.
~200 receptions from TE's and RB's out of Rivers 378 completions and that doesn't count Ronnie Brown or La'Ron McClain. And yards and TD's were similar. Over half or around half of Rivers production came from the TE position.
Only Keenan Allen stood out as a WR for them catching 71 passes as a rookie.
Anyway, the Chargers were a great example of how an OC/offense can adjust to their personnel and situation.
And not to get off track, but I agree with you, OL doesn't solve everything, my only point was it doesn't mean take a WR top 10 or early 1st for the 2nd year in a row.
1) improve the pass rush and that likely means adding a DE although as noted the 2015 draft likely won't be all that strong at DE
2) add some more impact players at the offensive skill positions such that I would expect guys like Gurley, Cooper and Funchess all to be on their short list of people to watch; the good news at both WR and RB is that they are very deep such that there will be good players at both into the 3rd and 4th rounds. That doesn't mean you pass on a guy you really like at either early on but it also means you won't be forced to force a pick on the positions. And yes I expect the Giants to weigh all the factors regarding RBs re their career length etc as part of the evaluation but at the end of the day if there was a guy they felt had the potential to be an Adrian Peterson type if he played to his physical potential - always the key question - then it would be hard to pass.
3. add some speed to the back 7 in the middle of the defense, although as with the DE situation the pickings are slimmer here. I've noted before the best option at S for example might be a 2-3 rounder like Prewitt of Ole Miss, Drummond of Michigan State or Smith of Fresno State.
4. Continue to upgrade the OL especially inside, although my guess is that in the end they do what they have always done and add another OG/C or two in free agency and look for some depth at OT in rounds 3-4 and there are in fact some very good second-tier OTs that are going to be available this year in those mid-rounds. And yes if there was a stud LT type they might go there early but right now it really doesn't look like any of the top OTs this year really fit the 'stud, can't miss' category.
Lastly, in response to a couple of questions/comments: Emil - right now we are hearing that Oakman is flirting with a top ten grade around the league but that is mostly on upside; I suspect that what kind of speed and quickness he shows at the combine etc will have a major impact on whether he stays there .... BBC - one could indeed say games are won and lost in the trenches if this was still the 1980s. Its not and in this century its just a cliche at least on the offensive side. With the glitchy new offenses in football these days you still need a functional and even teams like New Orleans and Green Bay won recent Super Bowls with decidedly indifferent OLs but oodles of talent at the skill positions (while the opposite hasn't happened in years!) Which brings me to the 1980s and big myth (Big Lie!!) that the Giants won SBs in 1986 and 1990 based on a punishing offensive line (George Young and his Planet Theory etc). The Giants didn't win anything because of their run game, they won two SBs in that era because of their absolutely stultifying defenses. In fact, there offenses in those days were barely average, even the run games. You want to recreate what the Giants did back then (which often seems to be a cottage industry in these parts) then draft defense defense and some more defense. Have a great weekend everyone!
Colin mentions Demarco Murray and Jason Witten. These guys were 3rd rounders. How about we draft them instead of the Jayron Hosley's of the world?
Our skill positions on offense definitely need an upgrade, but the line matters more. The last thing we need to worry about is if they'd be forced to sit behind Beatty or Pugh for a year. Unless the talent just isn't there or some ridiculous non-RB falls to us, that's where we need to go.
I believe the offense could be ridiculous if they had the following group next year:
Cruz
Beckham
Cooper
Randle
Jernigan
Washington
Donnell
Jennings
With a draft picks or FA (or both) added to the line of Pugh, Beatty, Richburg, Schwartz.
Randle would be an good #4 WR. Jernigan has shown some flashed as has Washington. The top 3 all are big play threats as soon as the ball is in their hands. All three are deep threats as well.
There are tons of great potential options and huge needs on the team. I think having Cooper would be a larger effect on the offense than any other player they could draft. Teams would be stuck in nickel and dime constantly and have to play safeties deep. Teams would dare the Giants to run the ball instead of crowding the box and the line constantly.
Even if the offensive line were still bad an inept OC could figure a way to put one of them in motion every play to get quick passes off and let them make plays in space.
the good thing for me is I know that I know very little about all the college players, so I don't rule anyone out.
But based on history and the game in general a RB would surprise me in the top 10 and a WR in the first back to back years would be a surprise too.
Not saying either won't happen, only I'd be surprised.
Before the 02 draft, mocks had us picking Shockey - and there was a hefty debate, here and on sports sites with the draftniks, arguing that a TE couldn't possibly reflect a good value at 15th overall.
You don't pick positions - that's almost like drafting for need, it puts priority over what should be #1 - getting the best football players we can for this team. The FO is definitely partly to blame for this mess, but the root cause is the inability to get good football players to the roster, not assigning the wrong priorities.
Phil in Arizona also makes a great point: "Colin mentions Demarco Murray and Jason Witten. These guys were 3rd rounders. How about we draft them instead of the Jayron Hosley's of the world?"
I think with the Giants offensive line, Witten, and Bryant we would be surprised at what a competent running back would do let alone Murray. Jennings looked good behind this offensive line. He was consistently gaining positive yardage with a good YPC (his longest was 18 yards).
I agree with those that are tired of listening about Martin. If Martin can play OT, that's one thing. But, if Martin spends the rest of his career at OG, he'll have to play like a Larry Allen to be worth a high 1st round pick. You can always get good guards later in the draft. But, great guards are different. Is Martin a Larry Allen? I dont think so and as mentioned abve, if you switched Martin with Richburg, a 2nd round pick, the teams would probably be in the same place and I think its harder to draft a good center than guard.
Before the 02 draft, mocks had us picking Shockey - and there was a hefty debate, here and on sports sites with the draftniks, arguing that a TE couldn't possibly reflect a good value at 15th overall.
You don't pick positions - that's almost like drafting for need, it puts priority over what should be #1 - getting the best football players we can for this team. The FO is definitely partly to blame for this mess, but the root cause is the inability to get good football players to the roster, not assigning the wrong priorities.
To be clear I wasn't writing anyone off (not sure if you even meant me), like you I don't know enough about these guys, but it's a question of looking at the whole roster.
Only so much you can do with a limited # of draft picks you need to consider free agency too.
How much different is this roster with a better running back than Rashad Jennings? Not much is my opinion.
So, I'm not saying draft for need, but you have to weight some positions higher than others, so that RB you take HAS to be Adrian Peterson (for example) if you forgo the first change the franchise has had in over a decade at a top 10 pick to land your stud LT or wrecking ball DL.
Colin knows the players better than me, so if those guys aren't around at 10 (or wherever) then obviously that changes things, but I disagree that lines are no longer how you build a team and you focus on skill players more because of the league rule changes.
That's how the Raiders think. Not the Patriots.
I wasn't referring to your post specifically, but that mentality is definitely in range. The question isn't 'a better running back' - it's how much better.
You can play the same game at every position - people asked 'well, why not grab Zach Martin and then go grab a WR in round 2'? We had needs on both the OL and at WR, so in theory it makes sense.
Thing is - Beckham is a MUCH better WR than what you'd get in round 2, a much smaller delta between Martin and Richburg. You have to play that game repeatedly, since to be honest - just about every spot on the roster save for 3 or 4 could use a talent infusion (and that's applicable to most of the NFL these days).
Our problem hasn't been where we've been spending the picks, it's been picks that don't pan out. Guys who get injured before their time. A guy who never even stepped on the field in a regular season game. We need to start hitting on more draft picks and hoping that these guys last a little bit longer than some of the ones we've had go through the doors already.
Get us some hungry, angry players.
Thanks for listening.
Try reading the damn thing and then making a counterpoint, not just repeating the same shit over and over again without any reasoning behind it.
This ^^. I was thinking the same thing.
The Giants of the 80s won with defense. That was their team identity.
The offense just wasn't a bystander, but that team was built around LT and the defense.
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How much different is this roster with a better running back than Rashad Jennings? Not much is my opinion.
I wasn't referring to your post specifically, but that mentality is definitely in range. The question isn't 'a better running back' - it's how much better.
You can play the same game at every position - people asked 'well, why not grab Zach Martin and then go grab a WR in round 2'? We had needs on both the OL and at WR, so in theory it makes sense.
Thing is - Beckham is a MUCH better WR than what you'd get in round 2, a much smaller delta between Martin and Richburg. You have to play that game repeatedly, since to be honest - just about every spot on the roster save for 3 or 4 could use a talent infusion (and that's applicable to most of the NFL these days).
Our problem hasn't been where we've been spending the picks, it's been picks that don't pan out. Guys who get injured before their time. A guy who never even stepped on the field in a regular season game. We need to start hitting on more draft picks and hoping that these guys last a little bit longer than some of the ones we've had go through the doors already.
And THIS ^^. jcn is killing it
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How much different is this roster with a better running back than Rashad Jennings? Not much is my opinion.
I wasn't referring to your post specifically, but that mentality is definitely in range. The question isn't 'a better running back' - it's how much better.
You can play the same game at every position - people asked 'well, why not grab Zach Martin and then go grab a WR in round 2'? We had needs on both the OL and at WR, so in theory it makes sense.
Thing is - Beckham is a MUCH better WR than what you'd get in round 2, a much smaller delta between Martin and Richburg. You have to play that game repeatedly, since to be honest - just about every spot on the roster save for 3 or 4 could use a talent infusion (and that's applicable to most of the NFL these days).
Our problem hasn't been where we've been spending the picks, it's been picks that don't pan out. Guys who get injured before their time. A guy who never even stepped on the field in a regular season game. We need to start hitting on more draft picks and hoping that these guys last a little bit longer than some of the ones we've had go through the doors already.
Right, I didn't eliminate RB, I just said if you take a RB top 10 he has to be Adrian Peterson good or I don't see the justification with all the other holes on the team.
there has been no 1st round RB's drafted lately for a reason (last two years) and it's not just the talent level of the RB's IMO. Look at the 1st round RB's the past 5 years, more often than not they paint a picture of regret or poor performance.
I agree though it's not where the current players were picked, but that they were picked LOL in many cases so picking a bad WR in the third round is just as easy as the 1st or 2nd round and that's a problem just saying bucking the conventional wisdom and going RB top 10 has not recently or historically worked out well for the team doing it.
Through 9 games the Cowboys have ran the ball 285 times. They ran it a total of 336 times last season. They're on pace to break that within their next two games. Last year they averaged 4.5 ypc. This year it's 4.8, virtually the same.
Murray has already surpassed his total rushes in 9 games this year vs. 14 last year (225 vs. 217). He's averaging 5.0 ypc. His career average? 5.0
All in all it's about making good picks no matter the round or position. It's not one person, it's a team. As I said earlier I'd prefer other players but wouldn't be pissed if we took Gurley. If that's the value come spring then pull the trigger. I just hope we get quality value/players in later rounds as well.
This doesn't translate for WRs. A really good offensive line isn't turning Jerrel Jernigan into Victor Cruz, or Rueben Randle into Odell Beckham.
The OL will look a hell of a lot better if the Giants actually had a RB with fucking chops. Jennings is OK. Nice player...but nothing special and he's hurt. Williams? He's nothing right now. He's a guy trying to establish himself as merely worthy of playing. He's not a star. Probably won't ever be a star.
We need a STAR. Not just a tough guy or a guy that can wiggle for 6 yards once in a while. We need a game breaking RB that strikes fear into opposing defenses. We need Adrian Peteron, McCoy, Charles, or something like that.
And we need another legit pass receiver. The OL is coming along. Schwartz coming back and showing this team that he can hold down a guard spot for few years would help.
The Giants should be focused on bringing in playmakers all over this roster, be it RB, WR, D whatever. The lack of play makers on this team is downright shocking. It hasn't been this bad since 1996, BEckham being the long exception.
RB is a priority in my eyes. A huge priority and it has been since 2010.
I'll tell you they don't or haven't had much of their starting OL.
They lost Kelce, Herremans, Evan Mathis, and Johnson missed half the season.
Look at the best teams playing right now. Then look at who is toting the rock for these teams. Most if not all of those teams have serious resources devoted to the RB position.
Seattle? Lynch and a high draft pick behind him.
Denver? Multiple highly drafted RBs playing well.
Colts? Traded a ton to get Richardson. Spent a high pick on the RB from Uconn who they let walk to the Chargers.
Dallas got lucky with Murray in round 3. Beast. He's gonna be re-signed and will cost a fortune.
Philly and McCoy, Sproles...that's an expensive backfield.
Pats have spent a shit load of resources on the RB position and it shows.
Lacy, Charles, Forte, Ingram...on and on...all the best RBs were highly thought of coming into the NFL.
You want a good running game? Stop treating the position like it's an easy get...like RBs are a dime a dozen. You get what you pay for and that's why our running game has been crap the last 3 years now.
The Giants front office should be ashamed of how they have handled the RB position. It's the one position that gives the QB and offense more room for error. And this is the fucking NY Giants. We run the ball like no other....not anymore...now we make do with ok RB talent and then bitch when the OL doesn't resemble the 93 Cowboys.
Get a star RB in here...a guy that fans and scouts all love and I promise you this team resembles the 2005 NYG team and not this current mess of a team.
If we have McCoy we aren't 3-5 and even if we are at least we know we have a threat and shot this coming Sunday.
IT takes two to tango, of course the OL is important. But the RB is even more important in my view. He covers up warts. He gets 5 yards when a guy like Jennings gets 3. He gets 20 when Williams gets 6.
We need a legit star RB. I'll keep saying it until we all sit here praising the RB on a weekly basis. You will know it when you see it. We don't have it.
I think with the Giants offensive line, Witten, and Bryant we would be surprised at what a competent running back would do let alone Murray. Jennings looked good behind this offensive line. He was consistently gaining positive yardage with a good YPC (his longest was 18 yards).
He looked good, like everybody else, against the 3 crap teams. Not criticizing Jennings, criticizing the OL.
I'll tell you they don't or haven't had much of their starting OL.
They lost Kelce, Herremans, Evan Mathis, and Johnson missed half the season.
I don't think that's necessarily proof of the need for OL - losing everyone at one position basically degrades the entire unit. Look at what happened to the Giants once CBs started dropping like flies.
Think of it another way - wouldn't the Eagles suffer similar offensive woes if all their starting WRs were to go down? McCoy wouldn't get anywhere then either, because the defense has far less to defend.
Jennings is far from a top back and had success on this team (albeit against bad teams).
I agree the Giants can add more to the offensive line. But Pugh, Richburg and Beatty have all shown flashes of being guys you want to keep. Schwartz also isn't going anywhere even though he may not impress when he finally gets on the field. So do they do? Draft a LT and move Beatty and Pugh? Do they draft a guard or center? Or do they just draft the best offensive lineman available and have everyone compete at multiple positions?
Julio Jones...not as physical, but quicker and a tad faster. Cooper is hands down the best Wr that will be coming out. For sure a Top 10 pick, probably top 5.
This is actually incorrect. Williams looked very good in preseason, much better than Cox did his rookie year.
He was not a finished product when drafted, which is why he slid to the 4th round. I think he'll be a good back with a season or two under his belt, as long as he doesn't have any flipping neck injuries.
I want that pick to be a 10 year player...mostly at a high level.
Do RB's normally go that long?
Somewhat true. I mean, Dayne was a guy who picked a spot and wasn't going to do much shifting, the hole was going to be there or not. Tiki of course could.
But if there isn't a hole anywhere, Tiki can shift all he wants, he's going to be tackled.
Our OL blows in run blocking this year. The interior can't get push. And hopefully two of the three (Walton/Jerry) will be replaced.
If we're not in position to draft Mariota, there's probably no QB for us in '15. If the best player, value, etc is there and it's a LOT, grab him and run. If it's DE, ditto. WR? Ditto. CB? You betcha.
The point is you really don't know until you're on the clock, I want the best player and fit regardless of position. Draft the player not the position. It's proven you can pick the premium playmaker high and still build a terrific OL without a blue chip LOT, for example.
-Making the incorrect comparisons of the Giants to the Saints and Packers both of whom have QB's with wildly different skillsets then Eli does. Trying to say that just because they can do it with 'indifferent OL's so can we, is at best Dubious thinking.
-Making another incorrect assumption about the NFL of today. Yes the Rules favor passing the ball, a lot. Sneezing on a WR automatically merits a 15 yard penalty seemingly. However, you're ignoring the success of teams like the Seahawks, 49ers and others who commit to running the ball, if not in dominant fashion then at least effectively.
I'd argue that in today's NFL, where the only guaranteed way of stopping the offense is to hit the QB repeatedly, that running the football and being able to pass protect your QB, is far more important then anything else. Even average WR's can get enough separation to make catches given the time. That the Giant's crew cannot speaks more to their overall talent level and coaching then it does anything else.
Finally, there's the actual cold-hard truth of the team's make-up and talent pool. Two of the best skill position players on the team were undrafted Free Agents. Another was drafted by a different team entirely. Of the actual draft picks spent by team on offense, only one, Odell, shows any real promise. The rest, Randle, Williams, Robinson, are varying degrees of disappointing.
And that's not taking into account Reese's draft blunders and misses all across the board and his idiotic overvaluing of certain positions like WR and Cornerback over more important positions like OL and Linebacker.
Quite frankly, Reese's draft philosophy is shit, he and it, need to go. The Giants need to dramatically re-think how they build their team or else they will continue to spend more years like this one, wasting the talent they do have on the roster.
Jerry has undervalued LB, but the issue isn't that there aren't stars at the position for the Giants. The issue is that far too often there were players who weren't NFL caliber STARTERS at LB. That's why Blackburn/Beason looked like 9,000% upgrades over what was previously there. What was there wasn't a NFL caliber player.
I don't think Jerry undervalued OL as much as he overvalued Pat Flaherty's ability to turn lower level prospects into productive starters.
Jerry does need to change his draft philosophy. He needs to worry a bit more about production than measurables. The best example of that is Marvin Austin... based on what he did in college, there was no way on Earth he should've been drafted that high.
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He might just be god awful. Cox this year and last year look much better than Williams.
This is actually incorrect. Williams looked very good in preseason, much better than Cox did his rookie year.
In the regular season he has been horrid. I don't think we can gauge much in preseason. His stats in the preseason are great. In the regular season he can't hit a hole to save his life.
Just a comment of draft philosophy re positions as I suspect there is some evolution going on around the league, including the Giants, especially in the context of the new spread offense that the Giants are starting to install. First, we may actually see a greater premium on offensive linemen. In Coughlin's old offense, for example, in which the Giants usually only put out 3 receivers and kept the RB and second TE in almost exclusively to block, if an OL did miss an assignment the RB and TE were behind them and could often cover the block. In the new offense where the Giants are putting out 4-5 receivers it becomes far more critical that the OL make their blocks because there is no one behind them. As such I suspect that the Giants chose Pugh not because they wanted to upgrade the OL per se but that they wanted someone at RT who blocked like a LT. Same with Richburg. Again I don't think the Giants selected him simply because they wanted to upgrade the OL but b/c OC becomes a much more important position in a spread type offense because the QB is taking shorter drops and it is critical to anchor the middle of the line. Also because teams nt tend to blitz more up the middle, C as the primary responsibility of picking up those blitzes so you really want a smart, agile guy in the middle which I expect the Giants think they got in Richburg.
There is something of a similar story at RB. It wasn't all that long ago that running games were really grunt work with a RB slamming into a mass of bodies trying to make 4-5 yards. It is also to a degree why RBs had such a short shelf life and were almost interchangeable. However, in the new spread style of offense, defenses just can't bring as many people into the box with the result that what you are really hoping is that your back can make the first guy miss and turn those 4-5 yard gains into 15 yarders if not 40 yarders. And that's why having that special guy at RB who can make people miss could become far more of a draft commodity than in the past decade or so. Time will tell ...
The question(s) should be more along the nature of what gives the team the best chance to win and to maximize its resources.
Reese's philosophy has relied on luck too much IMO.
Thank you for insulting fans who look forward to 2015 by calling us "football idiots" for saying we should take this prospect or that prospect.
It's pretty ironic coming from someone who as of 10/15/14 has a big board and it's full of underclassmen who have and have not yet declared for the draft.
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Bad luck? So passing on OL for about 8 years is bad luck? Well he did grab Beatty. One of the most over rated picks of his career The issue isn't Martin over Beckham. Is that Reese did a bad job revamping the OL period when it collapsed
This is old news and tiresome. Sintim over Unger. Wilson over Glenn. Redoing Baas deal repeatedly killing the cap. Over paying Beatty. Missing on every single one of his later OL picks. Reaching for Pugh. Picking Barden Travis Beckum and Jernigan. OBJ looks like the real deal but 9 early round picks can we file that under it was the 12th pick so he should have gotten it right
Most GMs arent lucky enough to start w a franchise QB. He was and he's failed in getting playmakers and offensive linemen.
Reese isn't victim of bad luck. He's just not a top tier GM. and it's astounding that he still is living off of 2007 with so many
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That the Giants recent draft run is largely the result of bad luck.
Bad luck? So passing on OL for about 8 years is bad luck? Well he did grab Beatty. One of the most over rated picks of his career The issue isn't Martin over Beckham. Is that Reese did a bad job revamping the OL period when it collapsed
This is old news and tiresome. Sintim over Unger. Wilson over Glenn. Redoing Baas deal repeatedly killing the cap. Over paying Beatty. Missing on every single one of his later OL picks. Reaching for Pugh. Picking Barden Travis Beckum and Jernigan. OBJ looks like the real deal but 9 early round picks can we file that under it was the 12th pick so he should have gotten it right
Most GMs arent lucky enough to start w a franchise QB. He was and he's failed in getting playmakers and offensive linemen.
Reese isn't victim of bad luck. He's just not a top tier GM. and it's astounding that he still is living off of 2007 with so many
Great post, except Beatty isn't over paid (compared to other OLTs) and Pugh wasn't a reach - unless you want to say that the 4 other tackles taken ahead of him were really terrible reaches.
We live and die by the pass rush on D and as such, a pass-rushing DE is an absolute must. Unfortunately, it appears that the draft may not have any worth taking that high, according to Colin. May have to look at Free Agency to fill this void, however, it wil cost a pretty penny. Hopefully, this will be a good class for LBs and Safeties, as that is also where we need to focus attention. We need another athletic outside LB that can run, cover, hit and tackle. Additionally, we need safety help on the back end, as we don't know if Rolle will be back, Brown and Demps suck and Behre is an absolte unknown. Cooper Taylor appears to be an intriguing prospect but he seems to be hurt quite a bit and shouldn't be relied upon to be the starter.
Still many needs this off-season. I think another decent draft and this team can start to make some noise again and get back to the playoffs.
i am fine with making coaching changes. Getting a new defensive coordinator to get rid of tampa 2 and then drafting offensive lineman in the first three rounds.
this idea that he's ignored the line is utter garbage.
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In comment 11964447 Colin@gbn said:
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That the Giants recent draft run is largely the result of bad luck.
Bad luck? So passing on OL for about 8 years is bad luck? Well he did grab Beatty. One of the most over rated picks of his career The issue isn't Martin over Beckham. Is that Reese did a bad job revamping the OL period when it collapsed
This is old news and tiresome. Sintim over Unger. Wilson over Glenn. Redoing Baas deal repeatedly killing the cap. Over paying Beatty. Missing on every single one of his later OL picks. Reaching for Pugh. Picking Barden Travis Beckum and Jernigan. OBJ looks like the real deal but 9 early round picks can we file that under it was the 12th pick so he should have gotten it right
Most GMs arent lucky enough to start w a franchise QB. He was and he's failed in getting playmakers and offensive linemen.
Reese isn't victim of bad luck. He's just not a top tier GM. and it's astounding that he still is living off of 2007 with so many
Great post, except Beatty isn't over paid (compared to other OLTs) and Pugh wasn't a reach - unless you want to say that the 4 other tackles taken ahead of him were really terrible reaches.
I put that Pugh was a reach because IMO there were better players there ahead of him IMO. He's a mess right now amd IMO Reese had to grab and OL since it was beyond paper thin.
Beatty to me parlayed one solid year into an 8 mil uncuttable deal. To me it'sore
Than he's worth based upon the last year and a half.
My opinion. Either way it's pretty hard for me to listen to people alibi for Reese still. His philophy hasn't worked
You may not like the results, but that's a different argument.
Well you really deserved it Colin - that is as well a reasoned piece about football thinking and the Giants as I have ever read - and it needed to be plucked out and the basis for a conversation.
Low and behold - a mostly very reasonable football discussion ensued - so I congratulate you for your excellence and making such a valuable, sobering and thought provoking series of statements!
Particularly at crucial positions like the OL.
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are won and lost in the trenches.
Everyone, including Colin needs to remember that everytime they gush about a RB, TE, WR over an OL.
Martin is worth far more then Murray, Witten or Bryant for his versatility alone.
Martin is worth far more?
Let me ask a question. If the entire league redrafted right now, do where do you think Martin gets taken, in comparison with the other 3?
I would guess far after Murray and Bryant. And only ahead of Witten because of age, but Witten is a Hall of Fame TE, so even that's questionable.
I love me some OL, but Martin is absolutely not worth more than those guys. That's absolutely ridiculous,
Whenever you find yourself about to debate with BBC on any sort of NFL talent analysis, it's worth noting that he was forever ridiculed at BBWC for postulating - and defending - the notion that Tiki Barber was not, nor would he ever be, a "feature back" in the NFL. And this was well past the point that he already was one.
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What NFL player is he comparable with just to get an idea?
Julio Jones...not as physical, but quicker and a tad faster. Cooper is hands down the best Wr that will be coming out. For sure a Top 10 pick, probably top 5.
Doriel Green-Beckham is better and has more potential, IMO, but his off-the-field stuff is very bad.
Finally, there's the actual cold-hard truth of the team's make-up and talent pool. Two of the best skill position players on the team were undrafted Free Agents. Another was drafted by a different team entirely. Of the actual draft picks spent by team on offense, only one, Odell, shows any real promise. The rest, Randle, Williams, Robinson, are varying degrees of disappointing.
And that's not taking into account Reese's draft blunders and misses all across the board and his idiotic overvaluing of certain positions like WR and Cornerback over more important positions like OL and Linebacker.
Quite frankly, Reese's draft philosophy is shit, he and it, need to go. The Giants need to dramatically re-think how they build their team or else they will continue to spend more years like this one, wasting the talent they do have on the roster.
I totally agree with all this. Many here do. Whether the owners are on to these basic facts and do something about them (they should be searching, evaluating, even and preparing now, of course, not starting the process only after the season ends) -- and they are the only ones who can do it -- remains to be seen. Last year they did virtually zip, despite all the talk about a "broken" offense and so on. Left it all to Reese, one supposes. Blind alley. To deal with the problem, they'll have to figure it out for themselves. Or decide they prefer to be laughed at and derided.
What did you think of JPP pre-draft and has your opinion changed.
You may not like the results, but that's a different argument.
It was true until the OL fell apart. His first 7 years as a GM the first 3 rounds he drafted 7 WRs. 4 DL. 6 DBs and ONE OL. Beatty who is by no means an player their is any type of consensus on.
So regardless of opinion it's pretty hard to argue he values OL in the draft. He just didn't until the his immobile pocket QB became a sitting duck.
Even with drafting that many. WRs and striking gold w Cruz he needed to then draft OBJ because none of his other WRs that he's drafted have hit with the exception of Nicks who sadly fell off a cliff.
Why people insist to ignore what Reese actually does is the question. He also grabbed two guys in Wilson and Sintim at RB LB who weren't playing well at all before injuries over OL.
He doesn't value the OL. Then he grabs Pugh and Richberg when the OL is In. tatters.
Also before Reese took over for Acorsi the Giants only drafted Chris Snee in the top 3 rounds.
So again if you agree with his philosophy great but it hasn't worked and now were Pugh and Richberg the best value at their picks or were they taken out of pure necessity?
Because it seems at WR or even DB it's ok to stockpile guys in the early rounds but not OL.
I don't like it. I think it was playing w fire and now it surely seems that there isn't a bonafide stud in the line at this time. Not good when your QB is into his mid 30s, not mobile and has maybe one or two great guys with him on that side of the ball after huge investments in draft picks.
Barden
Beekman
Boman
Wright
Stoney
Yet the New England gets Edleman in the 7th round.
In the 2005 draft how does N.E. come up with
Eric Moore in the 6th round
Then in the 7th round they drafted Matt Casel.
What's the story Mara?
Barden
Beekman
Boman
Wright
Stoney
Yet the New England gets Edleman in the 7th round.
In the 2005 draft how does N.E. come up with
Eric Moore in the 6th round
Then in the 7th round they drafted Matt Casel.
What's the story Mara?
Who the fuck is Beekman?
Take the Best O-lineman available in Free Agency .
Also add Houstan the LB in free agency .
Were Jammin again .
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That the Giants recent draft run is largely the result of bad luck.
Bad luck? So passing on OL for about 8 years is bad luck? Well he did grab Beatty. One of the most over rated picks of his career The issue isn't Martin over Beckham. Is that Reese did a bad job revamping the OL period when it collapsed
This is old news and tiresome. Sintim over Unger. Wilson over Glenn. Redoing Baas deal repeatedly killing the cap. Over paying Beatty. Missing on every single one of his later OL picks. Reaching for Pugh. Picking Barden Travis Beckum and Jernigan. OBJ looks like the real deal but 9 early round picks can we file that under it was the 12th pick so he should have gotten it right
Most GMs arent lucky enough to start w a franchise QB. He was and he's failed in getting playmakers and offensive linemen.
Reese isn't victim of bad luck. He's just not a top tier GM. and it's astounding that he still is living off of 2007 with so many
Uh the giants didn't ignore the OL for 8 years. You continuously make shit up or exaggerate just to bash Reese. They drafted Mosley, brewer, Beatty, Pugh, richburg and more. They signed baas to a big contract.
Some of those moves didn't work. There's a difference between ignoring something and failing to bring in the right healthy players but in your world that doesn't fit the narrative.