Reese hasn't completely neglected the O line......

James Brewer, Brandon Mosley, Mitch Petrus, Eric Herman, Matt McCants...

But...

they suck

drafted in...

2005 and 2006 either. Adam Koets in 2007.

has done a terrible job with the OL. The facts are on the field. It has not just been the last two seasons. The OL has been going down hill for a few seasons now. Its time for Reese to go

Seriously?

2006 Whimper

2007 Koets

2008 zip

2009 Beatty

2010 Petrus 5th

2011 Brewer 4th

2012 Mosley 4th, McCants 6th

2013 Pugh 1st, Herman 7th

2014 Richburg 2nd

Since 2006, you now have 3 starters from your draft with a total of 6 full seasons.....it has been neglected.....the last two picks were out of necessity, because we had no one to play the position....and on top of that, one guy is playing guard, instead of center, which supposedly is his best position....

In comment 11965086 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

drafted in... 2005 and 2006 either. Adam Koets in 2007.

This, and what you said in your first post. Koets did tear his ACL IIRC, so I'm not sure I'd bury Reese for that pick, especially since the rest of the 2007 draft was so good.

Pugh concerns me the most right now. His play has been poor, except for some good outings against low quality opponents. Perhaps it's that he's injured, and that Jerry has also been bad. But I was hoping for better.

As far as "neglecting" the OL, people need to understand that trying and failing is the same as not trying. As you note, Reese has tried and basically failed, with mostly mid to low round projects. He told us that Brewer had left tackle feet. Petrus and Mosley were TEs, before switching to the OL late in their careers. McCants looked lost, although he had a good career at UAB, and is still with the Raiders. The jury is still out on Herman. Next year is critical for him, but he looked OK during the preseason. I'd bring him and Mosley to camp next year, and cut or not resign Brewer, Reynolds, Jerry, and Snyder.

It's also not just who he drafted, but who he didn't draft, namely passing on Cordy Glenn (the highest rated player on their board) for David Wilson. That meant he eventually had to overpay for Beatty. In Beatty's defense, he did look very good for a few games this year, and the real problem with the OL is with Walton and the right side of the line.

The OL also suffers because we have no receiving threats outside of Beckham, who is a rookie. So teams stack the box. Is there a team in the league with worse TEs? Robinson has done nothing. Fells is an aging veteran. Donnell has talent, but is not ready to be a #1 TE.

Drafting Randle, who Reese said was "pro ready," over Sanu was also a mistake. But then he wanted to draft Hayward-Bey over Nicks, and Jarrett over Smith. The end result is that Reese's bad decisions at WR and TE compound his bad decisions on the OL.

Eli is being wasted. I wouldn't extend Eli at the end of the season. He's under contract for one more year. Just pay him the $17M he's owed, and punt the decision until 2016. But there is no question that Reese's poor decisions are wasting the best years of a two time SB winning MVP QB. That is simply inexcusable.

There's going to be another major purge of players at the end of the year IMO.

in their second year speak more to poor coaching?

In comment 11965150 Mike in Philly said:

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in their second year speak more to poor coaching?

Some guys? You mean one guy: Pugh.

1) His rookie year was overrated a tad because the rest of our line was so putrid in comparison

2) He's being counted on more as a vet this year.

3) He had to learn an entirely new offense for the second time in two years.

Everyone else on that list was not good to begin with despite all the wishing and hoping.

Not to mention that they have played the game for 20 years before the pros. Everything is always on the coaching. It's like the players are robots and the coaches have playstation controllers making every move.

Both taken in the sixth round. Koets was very versatile and filled in as a starter for the Giants across the OL. Played four years until his career was ended by injuries .

McCants is n his fourth year and is a spot starter and reserve for Raiders.

What do you expect in the sixth round? neither pick was amazing but both were solid, especially Koets. To be quite frank, I'm not sure Pugh is all that much better than Koets.

I understand the whole trying and failing vs neglect argument, but we desperately needed to draft early for offensive lineman starting in 2011. We passed again in 2012. 2013 and 2014 have been out of sheer necessity because the cupboard was bare. That is neglect to some degree combined with a complete overestimation of Brewer, Mosely, and McCants as NFL players.

.

You know, a guy who clearly plays better than where he was drafted?

Richie Schubert?

If the likes of McCants is doing well in Oakland, maybe it is a little bit on the coaches for not developing these guys.

there was obviously enough talent in these players to warrant a selection in the NFL draft. How come they have not developed? Are we that bad at drafting? Maybe our scouts suck at evaluating olinemen? Whatever it is, it has to change quickly.

Pugh, a guy that was drafted in the 1st round, is regressing?! Is it an injury? I have seen some poor fundamentals from him too. Maybe Flaherty is not getting through to these guys. Pugh is certainly no dummy and he has skill. It's a mystery?!

Hopefully, Reese will get it right next off-season. We do need a mauler at Guard and Richburg has to develop into a top center. We also need a solid swing tackle; a guy that can step in a get the job done well enough. I don;t have confidence in Brown to be that guy.

duh.

Third time's the charm.

is doing well. Notched some starts because there was no other option. You call that a spot starter, I call that really bad luck for whatever team has to play them.

Are Brewer and Mosley still on the roster ? They both play like they have 2 left feet.

no, of course not.

has he done nearly enough?

no.

And, Reese has had bad luck with OL injuries. But, he's not done a good enough job fixing things. Koets, before he got hurt, looked like he was developing into a solid center. Baas' career ended way too early and even Snee's career ended a little early. Baas would have been an adequate center and had no real history of injuries. And, we don't know about Schwartz for now. If Schwartz can play to what they projected, and no new injuries, the OL will be ok. That said, Brewer and Mosely were picked high enough to be contributors and neither has panned out. But, I don'r think Reese ever neglected the OL.

.

not extend Eli?

Do you really want to go through the disasters that the Jets are enduring because they don't have the guy?

To me, TC and Flaherty have been doing a poor job with the line since 2010 and making some poor decisions along the way (re-inserting O'Hara in 2010, keeping Diehl in the starting lineup 2 seasons after his expiration date). Thank God, Snee mercifully made the decision himself or we would be watching his half broken body in the starting lineup every Sunday. I still question why we have Walton starting at Center instead of Richburg at his natural position.

IMO, the Giants need to sign a RT and move Pugh to LG. Beatty, Pugh, Richburg, Schwartz, free agent RT (Orlando Franklin? Bryan Bulaga?)

I would draft a G in round 2 or 3 to take eventually take over for Schwartz, who has never been healthy his entire career.

how come we have never developed a NFL-caliber linebacker? The only decent ones on our roster have been from free agent signings.

And how come JPP only has one move? Don't the coaches see that on film and try and teach him new techniques?

It appears to me that his play started to regress at the same time he started wearing an the elbow brace. Think we need to wait and see.

much as missing on the lower round picks. One or two of those should have worked out. Your whole line needn't be round 1 thru 3 guys. Diehl was a 5th rounder and Seubert was an UDFA.

Moseley will probably do the same. We are just not developing players anymore.

and that's simply not the case. Anyone who says he has neglected the line is flat out full of shit. We may not have invested the resources into the line that some would have liked and if you want to be upset about that then by all means but Reese has tried to make improvements. Bringing in four interior lineman is not neglect.

... part of the reason Reese has had to scramble on the offensive line is that Diehl, Baas, and Snee's careers ended prematurely. All three should be at the tail end of their prime, not out of football.

People do to alibi for Reese are great.

He was GM for 7 years and took one OL in the first 3 rounds and in the Same time period 7 receivers we know where his priorities lie. Not until the OL became a shit fest did he then grab Pugh and Richberg. Pugh looks like a reach now. Not because hes a bad OL but there were probably much better players available when he was picked but the line was a mess and it was a major news pick.

Richberg solid pick but again line is still shitty.

He didn't neglect OL. He just thought he could sign FAs and hit on later picks. He was very wrong

In comment 11965324 FStubbs said:

Quote:

... part of the reason Reese has had to scramble on the offensive line is that Diehl, Baas, and Snee's careers ended prematurely. All three should be at the tail end of their prime, not out of football.

Agree... And to make matters worse, those career ending injuries happens to different players within a short period of time. McKenzie, O'Hara, & Seubert got hurt and tailed off at pretty much the same time. Then as you pointed out a couple of years later it was Diehl, Baas & Snee. Its hard enough to have 1 back up to be able to step in and play adequately right away, let alone 2-3 guys.

And its not just the OL. At WR Giants lost Plax, a couple of years later Steve Smith, then Nicks, and now Cruz... all "young", playing at or near Pro Bowl levels, and big time contributors at the time.

At TE, Shockey (not an injury, but still lost), then Boss, then Ballard.

I dont care how good a GM is, this number of injuries to major players (specially at the same position) is hard to over come... You fill a void, think you can move to another position, and a year or 2 later you're back trying to fill I position you think was set for a few years.

In comment 11965324 FStubbs said:

Quote:

... part of the reason Reese has had to scramble on the offensive line is that Diehl, Baas, and Snee's careers ended prematurely. All three should be at the tail end of their prime, not out of football.

Another BS post. Only Baas could be said to have ended early. Most offensive linemen rarely play well into their 30s. They got 10 years out of DD and 9 out of Snee. Both fell apart and to be surprised that guys who take a beating in the trenches start to fall apart is common sense

Why waste a first rounder on a right tackle. Plus not many other teams had him rated in first round. He' might be better off at guard.

the excuses are just unbelievable for reese. these guys broke down slowly to the point where fans could easily see they needed to be replaced

TC kept them in the starting lineup...so what does that tell you? either, the depth is inadequate or TC overvalues his veterans. I tend to think it's the latter. Either way, the evaluation standards of the coaching staff is not up to par.

In comment 11965409 LauderdaleMatty said:

Quote:

In comment 11965324 FStubbs said: Quote: ... part of the reason Reese has had to scramble on the offensive line is that Diehl, Baas, and Snee's careers ended prematurely. All three should be at the tail end of their prime, not out of football. Another BS post. Only Baas could be said to have ended early. Most offensive linemen rarely play well into their 30s. They got 10 years out of DD and 9 out of Snee. Both fell apart and to be surprised that guys who take a beating in the trenches start to fall apart is common sense

After QB's I think OL tend to have the longest careers. While they may well be past their prime, but they can still play at an effective level past 30.

Many of the Reese defenders were screaming to take Diehl out as a starter because the level of his play had fallen off so sharply--he was completely ineffective for two years prior to his retirement.

Snee, similar, though his decline accelerated in the last season + half. Some OL do play into their mid- to late 30s, these guys couldn't, and it was apparent by their play on the field. Baas was another overrating of a FA, big contract, and he certainly didn't play to it; he was an average (to slightly above average at times) center, and then he went down.

Reese should have begun to address the OL in earnest after the 2011 season, he didn't, and so we have the past three seasons of decline.

He went cheapskate in the OL until much too late.

Also, whoever mentioned mental gymnastics made me chuckle. I feel the same way. Occam's razor makes sense for a reason! I look at teams like the cowboys or Seahawks and I see several 1st and second round picks. Up until last year, we had not reinvested since snee, in a premier pick.

I'm so tired of the "lunch pail/ technician" kind of player. It seems every time we draft a lineman, they're a technician or versatile. I see other teams draft maulers that do one thing well, but it frequently seems to work. Of course there are busts all over, but the proof is in the pudding. It shouldn't have to take amazing playcalling and a super athletic play by an o-lineman for a play to work. We put all of our eggs in the Schwartz basket, who wasn't even a full time starter before we got him. It seems like the last time we really hit on a pick was Snee and the last time we hit on a signing was Kareem. That's a problem.

This offense is complicated, that guy is injured etc. It just seems to always be something. Even in our Super Bowl years, it takes magic. I wish we'd overpower defenses once in a while.

I'm a social worker and not a draft guru or nfl scout (and I plan on sticking to social work!) but Jeez, usually the simplest theory fits. For the record, I am forever grateful for Reese. He has given me some of the greatest memories imaginable with my dad. Shit, we might not even win another Super Bowl in the next 25 years, so two in that time span is amazing, but come on.

In comment 11965237 SHO'NUFF said:

Quote:

To me, TC and Flaherty have been doing a poor job with the line since 2010 and making some poor decisions along the way (re-inserting O'Hara in 2010, keeping Diehl in the starting lineup 2 seasons after his expiration date). Thank God, Snee mercifully made the decision himself or we would be watching his half broken body in the starting lineup every Sunday. I still question why we have Walton starting at Center instead of Richburg at his natural position.

Exactly!! I don't see how TC isn't included, when it comes to the players being added to this team(draft or FA). I believe, TC has a lot of say so. Maybe to much.

like a growing sense of frustration that some of the younger guys aren't seeing the field.

I loved Sanu coming out we lucked out with Diehl
And Rich S . Even Beatty was somewhat of a project .
Decnet in Pass Protection . But No One who can
Roadgrade .
Who Thought we would Take Wilson ?
The Plethora of failures at WR and TE .A Shitload of
Middle Round O-linemen and Linebacker Failures .
When is the last time we drafted a 10 year starter
on the Offensive Line ? % out of 7 times our RB's
are hit behind the line of scrimmage .
We hit for a 7 game stretch with and off injured
aging Beason and Wow what a Difference he made
Luke K would have been a sweet pick hell even Spikes and
Burfict would have foot the bill .
The piss poor drafts have not yielded depth at all
and it shows in our pathetic special teams as well .
I mean How many All Pro's has Reece drafted ?
I am sure there are a few Prince was a nice pick who plummeted . Nicks 2 good Seasons Wilson Bad Luck ?
Randle ? Not exactly a gamer or the very least his effort
is inconsistant Bottom Line is We Wasted too many
of Eli's Prime Years .

by virtue of his overall effort in bolstering that O-line, he DID neglect it. Just because he did SOMETHING does not mean he did not neglect it. This O-line has sucked for years. You can trace it way back. At one point we did not have an RB with 100 yards in a game for over a year. Gilbride has had to manufacture a run game with smoke and mirrors. Ever wonder why Eli used to throw deep so often? To keep the safeties back off of the line of scrimmage so we dont get stuffed on a run play.

Our O-line cannot push the pile...period. They cannot get off of the ball and move their target backwards. It has been years since we all felt comfortable that we could run the ball and get ONE YARD when we really need it. Not only do these guys have lousy footwork, but they are not even strong enough to match up against the D-line.

Only the Jets make our talent evaluation look professional.

Yeah so Reese has selected a lot of WRs and DBs. Even those choices for the most part have not been great. One thing here is that he has made us a SMALLER and less physically imposing team in those areas. We have no big WR who can physically dominate the DBs. This also means they are not going to be effective blockers too. Our DBs are small....period. Seems like that has always been the case.

Finally, too many guys on this roster who lack natural football instincts. You can just see it on the field. No idea WTF is going on around them.

I was sitting there in the stadium last week and was looking at all of the guys the Colts had on the sideline. Could not believe that both teams were working under the same salary cap. How could the Colts and the Giants spend the same amount of money and yet it looks like we put our team together with everyone the Colts decided to cut from their roster?

Finally, too many guys on this roster who lack natural football instincts. You can just see it on the field. No idea WTF is going on around them.


You see it week after week in the defensive backfield.....the miscommunication....wide open receivers.....

We have a group of linebackers that have no idea how to attack.....they wait for runners to come to them....they never go towards the runner, to take away not only his momentum/speed, but also his yardage...

How many times are we going to see our DE's collapse toward the center of the line, and leave the end exposed for a cutback?

Guy drops a ball, he should go to the bench for a series....drops another? He should stay there...

In comment 11965140 Doomster said:

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Seriously? 2006 Whimper 2007 Koets 2008 zip 2009 Beatty 2010 Petrus 5th 2011 Brewer 4th 2012 Mosley 4th, McCants 6th

Doomster's listing tells the story.

7 drafts go bye and the only thing we came out with was Beatty, and he is on almost every fan's wishlist to be replaced sooner vs later.

I am not sure I can blame the coaches on their developmental problems because together this gaggle of O-line selections barely have enough talent to be practice squad players.

and then try selling this delusion.

In comment 11966157 Giants2012 said:

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and then try selling this delusion.

Me or the OP?

.

In comment 11966157 Giants2012 said:

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and then try selling this delusion.

It is not about who Jerry passed on in the draft. I would be happy if we got all of our O linemen via free agency. Guys who have proven that they can play in this league.

In comment 11965084 Eric from BBI said:

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James Brewer, Brandon Mosley, Mitch Petrus, Eric Herman, Matt McCants... But... they suck

Agreed, they all suck. We also have a heck of a lot of "one year wonder" types on this team: JPP, Beatty and in a sense Nicks 2011 (huge year).

In comment 11966384 EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) said:

Quote:

In comment 11966157 Giants2012 said: Quote: and then try selling this delusion. It is not about who Jerry passed on in the draft. I would be happy if we got all of our O linemen via free agency. Guys who have proven that they can play in this league.

Not aware of any teams who sign all free agents for the OL. Not to mention, a successful one.