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I've been harping on talent, but team lacks toughness too

Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/9/2014 11:59 pm
Both on offense and defense, this is a very soft team. When it plays tough, stronger, more physical teams - both offensively and defensively - it has trouble.

I know today's game is a speed game and we're getting more like the arena league each year, and maybe I'm being a naive old fart, but to me this game is still about being tough and physical.

We can't run the ball...we can't stop the run...we tend to wear down. When another team hits us in the mouth, we usually wilt (the opposite was the 2011 NFC Championship Game).

This lack of physical toughness seems to be tied to a lack of mental toughness too.
totally agree  
islander1 : 11/10/2014 12:04 am : link
I am beginning to think this is a team that has tuned out coaches, and perhaps doesn't actually believe they are any good. All these beatings the past couple years have worn them down. Messages are stale. In the case of Fewell, I don't know if his message/complicated schemes were ever sold on the players. For years we heard players complain about them. We went on a Super Bowl run when Fewell "simplified things on defense" (player quotes from that time).

Drafting has been mediocre to piss poor. I mean look at 2011 and 2012. Holy shit.
I think it starts at the LOS  
chris r : 11/10/2014 12:05 am : link
but also on defense we don't have a single big hitter in the back 7. Its been a long time since we had a really physical D outside the DLine.

On offense Williams and Jennings will run you over. Donnell is a pretty soft TE. Our WRs don't make plays through contact.
Eric  
Giantcol22 : 11/10/2014 12:11 am : link
You couldn't be more right. I said it to a friend who is watched the game with....the Giants play like a bunch of Pu**ies. I hate to generalize like that because guys like rolle,McClain,And Ayers give max effort but overall this team is soft.
That's what happens  
eleven : 11/10/2014 12:15 am : link
When you only draft choir boys and team captains.
It won't solve all of the issues.. but  
Vin R : 11/10/2014 12:20 am : link
I'd love to see Suh in Giants blue next season
Team lacks  
Rflairr : 11/10/2014 12:33 am : link
quality coaching
We lack everything  
bceagle05 : 11/10/2014 12:41 am : link
except a quarterback, receiver and maybe a couple of linemen. Sunday Bloody Sunday next weekend. I think that big fourth down conversion today to Crabtree is gonna launch San Fran on a big run, which will include a beatdown of us.
...  
Giantcol22 : 11/10/2014 12:46 am : link
The O-line def lack toughness. Im not as down on Beatty as some people but all along the line I just see a bunch of finesse type players. Richburg is probably the exception. I still don't understand why the Giants never surrounded Eli with a line that can battle in the trenches. Other than Kareem Mckenzie we have basically just tried to plug in guys.... like Diehl at left tackle Or JD Walton this year . Even Schwartz was a mediocre signing. We need to invest more in this Online whether it's through the draft or free agency.
RE: That's what happens  
kepler20 : 11/10/2014 12:54 am : link
In comment 11969177 eleven said:
Quote:
When you only draft choir boys and team captains.


yup.

too many finesse guys.


we need maulers. WHen rookies feel the need to take bad personal foul penalites (re: richburg) that's an indictment on the rest of the team.

we need a coach  
jakechek26 : 11/10/2014 12:54 am : link
who just brings more intensity. you get the sense these players have a hard time getting fired up from TC. most of the guys from the 2 championship teams are gone. These guys weren't here when they won so they cannot relate to those types of motivational techniques
Yeah it does  
montanagiant : 11/10/2014 12:56 am : link
Outside of Richburg there is a definite lack of nastiness
While they were supposedly  
Rflairr : 11/10/2014 1:03 am : link
making adjustments at halftime. JPP was taking a shit. I guess we now know why this team never appears to make any adjustments. They're bullshittin in the locker room
RE: It won't solve all of the issues.. but  
bradshaw44 : 11/10/2014 1:12 am : link
In comment 11969178 Vin R said:
Quote:
I'd love to see Suh in Giants blue next season


I was against this idea when Suh originally made his comments earlier this year, but I've changed my view. Speaking to your point Eric, I think a guy like Suh is exactly the kind of nasty attitude we need in this team. Our whole team seems soft, sans Eli and Beckham.
RE: Eric  
bradshaw44 : 11/10/2014 1:15 am : link
In comment 11969175 Giantcol22 said:
Quote:
You couldn't be more right. I said it to a friend who is watched the game with....the Giants play like a bunch of Pu**ies. I hate to generalize like that because guys like rolle,McClain,And Ayers give max effort but overall this team is soft.


I had the same convo with a buddy of mine. We need somebody to intimidate others teams and Suh will do that.
Eric  
Matt M. : 11/10/2014 2:33 am : link
This is why a lot of people are clamoring for coaching changes. At least part of toughness is from coaching.
the team captain and choir boy stuff is foolish  
bc4life : 11/10/2014 2:47 am : link
has nothing to do with toughness.

and anyone who thinks Diehl, Seubert and those guys from that OL weren't tough - is a bad judge of football character.

it's about being physical - team does not have enough of those guys. mentioned this on another thread, that maybe the focus is too much on athletic metrics - guys like Brewer, Beatty - and maybe the systems they run don't emphasize that.

people mention finesse - but that's like saying those Denver SB OLines, SF, were not tough.

team is a mess, out of contention by mid-season - speaks for itself.
Eric...as you know, football is still  
MikeN in Ottawa : 11/10/2014 5:01 am : link
all about the trenches...winning that battle and you generally win a lot of games. As you pointed out, the Giants are not tough up front either on the defensive or offensive line. On Twitter yesterday, several times I referred to them as pussies.

They are...sad to say about a Giants' team but they are soft, soft, soft...in all facets of the game.

Again, though, this has been noticeable for a long time...nothing has been done about it.
body fat  
hilary f : 11/10/2014 6:10 am : link
Our tackles do not look like well conditioned athletes who are willing to watch what they eat and train to optimize performance.
Bowman is s flaming pussy.  
kmed : 11/10/2014 6:34 am : link
He made multiple "business decisions".
They need Iupati.  
drkenneth : 11/10/2014 7:13 am : link
Too many finesse players, especially on the OL. That's where is gets tricky with Pugh for me. Is he a RT? If not, do we need another finesse OG?

Beatty-Iupati-Richburg-Schwartz-?

...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 11/10/2014 7:17 am : link
Bowman avoiding Lynch was all I needed to know. That was embarrassing.
We could  
eleven : 11/10/2014 7:33 am : link
Use a few nasty dudes on this team. I would definitively do what I could to land Suh, and draft a left tackle who had a pair. We just have a bunch of non intimidating people on this team. Every great team needs an LT, Plax etc. that guy with a little thug with great talent. We just have a bunch of gentlemen. My opinion.
Even the lousy 60s, 70s teams...  
silverfox : 11/10/2014 7:34 am : link
...were tough SOBs...this current group makes that group look really good. It all starts with the top...its true in every business. How many times does this have to be repeated?

We have a systemic problem that starts right at the top. Those last 2 SB victories were just as much contributed to luck as they were coaching and talent. Lots of things had to line up perfectly for those two runs to happen. Romo missing a wide open Miles Austin, the infamous fumble in SF, Tyree's catch, etc...it goes on and on.

Once luck runs out, you're left with what we have seen the last 3 years. Its quite obvious looking back that Coughlin and Reese were not the geniuses everybody thought, but its looking more like they were in the right place at the right time.

There's no more time on the clock and it ran out years ago.
Anyone have a gif of Bowman dodging  
bradshaw44 : 11/10/2014 7:54 am : link
Lynch?
You draft tough guys.  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/10/2014 8:04 am : link
They aren't made tough once they get to the NFL. By that time its to late. Not very player is going to be a killer but teams need a good amount of those no quite nasty bustards.

Bavaro, Suebert, Carson, Taylor are names that pop into my mind. Snee in his prime was a tough dude.

Im not sure there's a guy who even comes close to any of those that i mentioned.

Tuck  
WideRight : 11/10/2014 8:10 am : link
Nobody on this team is tougher than Tuck. Obviously his tank was almost dry, but when you tell the team this is what we do to tough guys after their prime, don't expect them to follow that path.

The number of business decisions by the secondary really disturbed me.
Lacking toughness  
trueblueinpw : 11/10/2014 8:39 am : link
Sean O'Hara was saying a few weeks ago on Playbook that O line can often set the attitude of the entire team. I think back two seasons when defenses were obviously cheap shoting Cruz early in games and how no one ever returned the favor. Our team has lacked toughness forsome time. Remember how fired up the team would get from a Brandon Jacobs play or two?

As soft as we seem to be on offense, its even worse on defense where I can't really remember the last nasty big play maker we've had on defense. Even good defensive players like Tuck and Osi, while never "soft" they also weren't "nasty". Fewells schemes are a mystery to me but they clearly are not predicated on big hits and tough play.

Like dr k wrote, we need an Iupati type player on O. Definitely need some tough guys who bring the nasty on D.
Bowman didn't just do it once,  
kmed : 11/10/2014 8:46 am : link
he went lame on Lynch's 4th TD as well. He did it twice on TD runs and a few times elsewhere. This whole team is soft.
Richberg is a step in the right direction.  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 11/10/2014 8:51 am : link
The guy is nasty. Beatty and Pugh however are pretty lightweight. Not gonna get in anyone's face. Walton is blah. Jerry won't be here next year. You have one guy on the line with a nasty attitude.
As mentioned above  
natefit : 11/10/2014 8:57 am : link
get Suh and then get Rex as your DC and watch how fast that unit toughens up.
Eric,  
Simms11 : 11/10/2014 9:08 am : link
I agree with the lack of mental toughness, but these guys are no weaklings. These are strong NFL players. I do think they fall apart mentally and I think fundamentals fall apart with that. Lack of discipline = lack of mental toughness, as well. To me, that's on the coaches too and I have not been impressed with any of our defensive coaches. They do not seem to have the ability to communicate well or get their concepts across top the players well. How about benching Kiwi next time he loses contain (Parcells would have done it).
Note re Toughness  
Percy : 11/10/2014 9:10 am : link
You know, the Marines make men out of boys -- tough, talented men out of boys capable of being toughened -- every day. Every day. The Giants do not. It is not that it cannot be done. It is that the Giants don't do it. They don't know how and they don't choose to. Close the book on it.
i was livid that i believe #37 let Lynch run by him when he could  
gtt350 : 11/10/2014 9:19 am : link
stuck him at the 5 yd line
RE: As mentioned above  
dangerousrappingfrog : 11/10/2014 9:23 am : link
In comment 11969468 natefit said:
Quote:
get Suh and then get Rex as your DC and watch how fast that unit toughens up.


sign me up
Agreed  
BBurns : 11/10/2014 9:33 am : link
Still starts in the trenches . The Offensive line
lacks power and a mean streak obviously Lacking
in Talent .We manage to get a couple of Years out
of Overachieving Tight Ends . You can see the Teams
with an Above average TE tend to have great success .
Running backs more of the same no explosiveness or
speed .Eli is 100% better when defenses have to respect the
run which helps the O-line in pass protection.
We have a Tendency to Draft players Based on Leadership
skills and athleticism JPP is an above average player .
I can't understand Letting Joeseph walk when We could
have him and Hank in the Middle instead of paying
less to lesser caliber players . Outside of Rolle
the safety's are not starting caliber and are slow.
We had bad luck with injuries to the CB's I would not
say that that group lacks toughness . The Linebackers
are Pathetic Sure Beason Made a huge mark in the run game
but tons of tread on the tires and its caught up with him
McClain is ok but not an impact player this team has
needed at this neglected position. It all goes back to talent . Reece Ross whoever needs to be held accountable
Our drafts have stunk and it affects the special teams
as well . Herzlitch great story but we havee to stop
gambling on Projects and Players with injury history .
From the other thread.  
manh george : 11/10/2014 10:26 am : link
Despite keeping the game to a tie through early second half, the difference in athleticism between the two teams was already clear, and by game-end it was startling. Even when tied, it didn't seem likely that the Giants could keep pace. They were being worn down on defense, and didn't have enough functioning parts on offense. Some of that is injuries, of course. If we had a real halfback, we might have build a cushion, and the wearing down of the defense might have happened a lot more slowly.

But sheesh, it was frustrating, even when the game was tied, to see the Seattle defense make plays in space, and the Giants defense entirely incapable of doing so. I don't think that's effort, it's more likely talent, back to Eric's original premise. We need more players with physical skills.
RE: body fat  
Great White Ghost : 11/10/2014 12:33 pm : link
In comment 11969275 hilary f said:
Quote:
Our tackles do not look like well conditioned athletes who are willing to watch what they eat and train to optimize performance.
outside of Kuhn they look like fat sacks of shit.
Eric, Last year your position was the team had no excuse,  
Great White Ghost : 11/10/2014 12:47 pm : link
as you were sure they had the talent. Now you think they don't have the talent, or so I gather from your posts.

My question is did you change your mind,if so, why? Or do you think last years roster that started 0-6 did in fact have more talent than this years,and if so, the loss of who most contributed to this?
RE: It won't solve all of the issues.. but  
GloryDayz : 11/10/2014 3:05 pm : link
In comment 11969178 Vin R said:
Quote:
I'd love to see Suh in Giants blue next season


That seemed like a joke when it was discussed earlier in the season, but if he hits FA, Giants would be crazy not to pursue him aggressively.
Benchwarmers for more than one season. Why?  
Fpbflppt : 11/10/2014 5:36 pm : link
Couldn't we dump the deadwood and get people with enough fire to take the starting job away from the guy in it?

The starter isn't getting the job done. How good can that backup be?
Guys we miss...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/10/2014 7:59 pm : link
Jacobs, Bradshaw, Seubert, KMackenzie - guys who played a tough game - both physically but also mentally tough. The more tough the game, the tougher the opponent, these guys seemed to give a little more fight, not a little less.
RE: Bowman didn't just do it once,  
montanagiant : 11/10/2014 8:09 pm : link
In comment 11969446 kmed said:
Quote:
he went lame on Lynch's 4th TD as well. He did it twice on TD runs and a few times elsewhere. This whole team is soft.

Yeah that last one where he literally watched him run in when he could have made an attempt 5 yards before the goal was horrible. It was so bad that it almost looked like a strategy to let them score quick
RE: Guys we miss...  
SGMen : 11/10/2014 9:37 pm : link
In comment 11971272 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
Jacobs, Bradshaw, Seubert, KMackenzie - guys who played a tough game - both physically but also mentally tough. The more tough the game, the tougher the opponent, these guys seemed to give a little more fight, not a little less.
We lack leadership, toughness for sure. Odell is a superstar in the making. Outside of that, we got NOTHiNG. NO ONE.
It wasn't just Bowman...  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 11/10/2014 9:45 pm : link
.
Great White Ghost  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/10/2014 10:46 pm : link
I don't recall saying that. In fact, I'm pretty sure I said the opposite.
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