I'm interested to see everybody's viewpoint on the current state of the Giants.
Do you believe that the talent level on this team is comparable to the rest of the top teams in the NFL?
If not, do you think it can be fixed in one off-season?
Do you think we can put it all together next year and be Super Bowl contender?
What is your view of the coaching staff and do you think we can win with who we have there?
What is your view of management and do you think we can win with the decision makers we have?
This one is sure to cause a stir. If you feel we are not a talented and are more than a year away from fielding a competitive team then what do you do with Eli? Do you re-sign him which would eat up a significant amount of cap space or do you let him play out his contract to speed up the rebuilding process. Does your loyalty lie more with the players or the name on the helmet?
I personally want Eli to retire a Giant but it is an interesting discussion to have. I just think it is sad that his best years are being wasted. I'm glad we were able to win two Super Bowls with him because getting back to the Super Bowl more like a dream than a possibility at this point in time.
This isn't just about Eli though. What about JPP? What do you do with him? What do you do with Rolle?
Think about it before posting. Which situation would you come up with to facilitate the rebuilding of this team? Are you making your decision based on really analyzing the situation or on emotion?
I'd ask Coughlin to retire or take a promotion. Convince your new HC to stay with McAdoo at least 1 more season.
Both Rolle & JPP: re-sign Rolle to a short contract & JPP to a longer one. This assumes the players accept "reasonable" salary offers, else cut Rolle and keep JPP for 1 more year.
Plug your holes in free agency. See if you can get a good guard known for solid run blocking. Plug as many holes as possible as they tried to do early this year.
Draft BPA-playmaker in round #1 and seriously lean toward both lines with the next few picks.
Finally, pray and pray some more for healthy players.
On offense a speed back who is conversant in the passing game. Williams belongs in the wishbone era. No vision, speed, hands or usefulness in passing downs. But they also might have a new OC. Don't remember if McAdoo is on a multi-year deal.
I would like to keep McAdoo, but I don't know if that's possible unless they promote him to head coach. Is THAT possible? I don't know.
The only dudes I'd keep are Eli, Beckham, Jennings, Pugh, Richburg, Cruz, DRC, Prince, & Hankins. The rest can go.
No chance in hell I'm giving big $ to JPP. Thanks for 2011 Jason, but see ya.
This means new coaches, completely new staff. Shame to let Mcadoo go, but there's plenty of other young offensive minded assistants out there.
Extend Coughlin through 2016. Who can we hire who we know will be better than him? We know what we have with TC...a damn good, possible HOF, head coach.
Keep McAdoo. He needs another year and better talent to improve the offense.
Get rid of Fewell. He is part of the problem. I'd also replace Flaherty. Quinn has got to go as well.
As for the players:
Extend Eli for 5 years creating some cap space. He is the best QB we've ever had and shows no signs of age. Offer Rolle a 2 year team friendly deal. Let JPP walk. He now is nothing more than an average NFL DE who plays dumb. We can sign/draft talent equal to what he gives us for a lot cheaper.
I don't think Jerry Reese is going anywhere but his scouting department must be overhauled. Their talent evaluation over the past several years has been disgraceful. We need new players who are faster and nastier....tough, smart football players. I don't want criminals on this team but enough with the team captains and choir boys.
I like the offense and think by next year we could have something. Need more young playmakers.
Perfect world for me would be Gruden replacing Coughlin. But that's probably not going to happen. I'd ask TC to stay under the thought of letting fewell and Quinn go. He prob would have a hard time with that. Best to part ways and go with a defensive mind like Todd Bowles with the premise of keeping McAdoo.
Sign Suh to clog the middle and let JPP/Rolle walk. If there is additional cap space I'd also get Iuapati. These are non Reese type sexy moves but you need talent to build around and sometimes talent costs money. We have far too many mediocre players on this team that talk a lot.
Note: if the outcome winds up being trading Eli then I sign and resign no one next year and start a complete overhaul.
I think that's too much to ask in one off season. If they try they'll get what they have this year - a bunch of cast-offs to replace a bunch of stiffs.
As for the other questions, if I knew how to fix the team I'd be at Giants HQ with a resume.
They have Eli, Beckham, Jennings and Williams as keepers. Maybe Donnell. Cruz cant be counted on. THere is not one OL that any team would say "I WANT HIM". Obviously Richburg (at C PLEASE!!!) Pugh and maybe Beatty are staying, but nobody is going to confuse them with Brian Williams, Rosie Brown or Jumbo Elliot.
I feel sorry for Eli. It will be a race to see if they can put a contender around him while he is still in his prime.
The Defense is a complete shitshow, Coaches and players. Realistically, Prince JPP, and Hankins ar the only young players with talent they have. And I would not bust the cap for JPP (same goes for Rolle). They don't have 1 NFL caliber starting LB. Please let Bromley and Moore play. Let's see what we have.
I think they clean house, especially if they get blown out at home by SF and Dallas.
It's unfortunate we never really got to see a healthy Beckham and Cruz together in this offense. I think the two of them (assuming Cruz recovers fully) could be extremely explosive together.
A strong draft/free agency (and health) and they could crack the top 10-12 talentwise.
Coach/Front office: Still think TC is one of the best in the business and I think McAdoo has potential. Fewell/Quinn are awful though.
Reese I think is middle of the pack. Too many "projects" that never reached their potential (you can somewhat include JPP here). Is it coaching? Does Reese deemphasize some of the intangibles too much (e.g. work ethic)?
2014 Outlook:
1) The entire offseason will hinge on the JPP decision. How much is he looking for? He's not getting JPP (or Suh) money unless he explodes as a pass rusher the rest of this season. But they have no one ready to step in if he leaves.
2) Rolle - unless he settles for a deal in the $3-4M per year range, I'm letting him go. Great last year and generally underrated in his Giants career, but I'm worried by his lack of playmaking this season. Has he lost a step? Better to let a guy go a year too early...
3) Eli should retire a Giant. He's got 5+ years left
4) If they "fix" the pass rush, grab some average LBs, and get another legit receiving weapon I think they could compete next year.
It's unfortunate we never really got to see a healthy Beckham and Cruz together in this offense. I think the two of them (assuming Cruz recovers fully) could be extremely explosive together.
A strong draft/free agency (and health) and they could crack the top 10-12 talentwise.
Coach/Front office: Still think TC is one of the best in the business and I think McAdoo has potential. Fewell/Quinn are awful though.
Reese I think is middle of the pack. Too many "projects" that never reached their potential (you can somewhat include JPP here). Is it coaching? Does Reese deemphasize some of the intangibles too much (e.g. work ethic)?
2014 Outlook:
1) The entire offseason will hinge on the JPP decision. How much is he looking for? He's not getting JPP (or Suh) money unless he explodes as a pass rusher the rest of this season. But they have no one ready to step in if he leaves.
2) Rolle - unless he settles for a deal in the $3-4M per year range, I'm letting him go. Great last year and generally underrated in his Giants career, but I'm worried by his lack of playmaking this season. Has he lost a step? Better to let a guy go a year too early...
3) Eli should retire a Giant. He's got 5+ years left
4) If they "fix" the pass rush, grab some average LBs, and get another legit receiving weapon I think they could compete next year.
the first problem is that they counted on Beason. He is a walking injury.
I would stick with McAdoo...I think it is a good offense but it and Eli needs help, big time. I would restructure Beatty to a much lower salary or cut him if he did not accept. Put Schwartz at right guard and move Richburg to center. J.D. Walton would be gone so fast it would make his head spin.
Draft wise I would repeat what George Young did and spend multiple, high draft picks on the OL...probably for at least two years. Certainly, a focus would also be on linebackers and safety in both the draft and free agency.
With Cruz coming back, I would stick with Randle for the moment to see if he develops further. However, I would really want to have a heart to heart with him to see if he really wants to play football. The desire to play does not seem to be there.
I would add veteran depth in free agency especially guys who are good special teams players. Perhaps draft a young returner like a Meggett but our special teams needs better coaching...that is obvious.
First thing I would do is keep Eli. We have a franchise QB and that is the hardest thing to find in the NFL and the most valuable. Eli is more valuable than any coach or GM or other player.
Reese needs to go ASAP. The entire player evaluation dept needs to be overhauled. This is a colossal failure of the entire department.
Fewell and and Quinn need to go ASAP. No words needed.
Beyond that I would not resign JPP or Rolle on the defensive side of the ball. Need the cap room.
I would make a ply to bring in Suh from Detroit. The man is nasty, plays hard every down and is exactly what this team needs to set the tone for the attitude and effort needed to return the Giants to a Defense minded team.
On the offense we need a lot of work on O-Line. Move Richburg to Center, drop Walton and Jerry and we need to draft a solid guard maybe in round 2 or 3. I would consider spending a #1 pick on WR again. I doubt Cruz is going to have the speed he used to have. Randle sucks and we need a full compliment of receiving threats. We also need another top RB.
There are so many needs it's hard to articulate them in one post.
the first problem is that they counted on Beason. He is a walking injury.
I agree with that. I would've given him about half as much as they did.
Again, don't cut Walton. He may not be a star or even an average center, but 2015 is the last year of his deal and he'd be valuable depth. Richburg/Pugh are both cheap so you can have a slightly better paid backup (and his deal isn't that bad).
Draft/sign a mauling OG and go into the season with: Beatty-draft pick/FA-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh
The run blocking has been poor (though let's see how they look with Jennings back), but the pass protection has been above average.
First thing I would do is keep Eli. We have a franchise QB and that is the hardest thing to find in the NFL and the most valuable. Eli is more valuable than any coach or GM or other player.
Reese needs to go ASAP. The entire player evaluation dept needs to be overhauled. This is a colossal failure of the entire department.
Fewell and and Quinn need to go ASAP. No words needed.
Beyond that I would not resign JPP or Rolle on the defensive side of the ball. Need the cap room.
I would make a ply to bring in Suh from Detroit. The man is nasty, plays hard every down and is exactly what this team needs to set the tone for the attitude and effort needed to return the Giants to a Defense minded team.
On the offense we need a lot of work on O-Line. Move Richburg to Center, drop Walton and Jerry and we need to draft a solid guard maybe in round 2 or 3. I would consider spending a #1 pick on WR again. I doubt Cruz is going to have the speed he used to have. Randle sucks and we need a full compliment of receiving threats. We also need another top RB.
There are so many needs it's hard to articulate them in one post.
Agree with just about all of that. I'm drafting the BPA at WR/RB or pass rush, DE or a LB like Von Miller or even Barr that can bring pressure off the edge.
I want us to keep TC.
Let JPP go, and Rolle. I would let Eli play out this year before offering a contract. I think we lack talent on both sides of the ball, especially offense. So we can pretty much upgrade any or all positions there.
I think OL needs to be addressed again, and WR or TE. I do like OL, Gurley and Cooper in this upcoming draft. I look forward to seeing them and reading the scouting reports. I think Cooper and OBJ would be a very good duo. TE I still want to add. We need our OL to be able to run block or else we wil have more 3rd and long situations. So, upgrading that unit, just for the sake of balance is probably prudent.
I see this as a 2-3 year fix.
Especially when you have the QB in place
*Replace Fewell and Quinn
*I would let Rolle go, and if JPP wants crazy money, say goodbye
*Draft at least 2 DL's and 1 OL in the first 5 picks
*Be very active in free agency RB's, CB's, S, LB's and a WR
In 2 years Tom retires and McAdoo if deserving takes over the helm.
Coaching the Giants is among the very best jobs in football, so I have no fear there is a lack of good choices to replace Coughlin.
LB'ers.... Dennard to starter and replace everyone else! Beason cannot be counted on.
Sign a FS... CB starters and depth is fine as long as they can get healthy.
Sing a TE... cant wait for Donell to develop, we need a pass catching TE now.
It look really bad right now, but there are pieces in place to build on.
Giants need to improve depth... right now its garbage.
Bye Bye PF! Injuries aside his defenses still are lacking and his staff has not made ANYONE better!
Why the wild fluctuations? One week look unbeatable the next a bottom dweller.
Either this team has lacked talent all along and had outstsanding coaching or it had very good talent and spotty coaching. I tend to think the coaching has been spotty. Last week was a prime example. All of a sudden the defenese which had been good against the run gets destroyed. Admittedly LB is awful at best. Missing Amukamura against the run hurt too.
I saw a few plays that the oline opened big holes and Williams went the wrong way - I'm sure Jennings would have hit for big gains.
I'm under the impression there is better talent on the oline than is being shown - blame Flaherty here.
So:
1.) New regime starting at HC and GM if possible. Mimimum is DC and ST
2.) Better LBs needed immediately - period.
3.) Richburg to C, new OG needed. I think with a better line coach the players will play better. Walton and Jerry are viable back ups minimum.
4.) Need at least one more play maker - Gurley or Cooper (I still like Rashard Green too) followed by early oline pick.
Most of the changes need to be in the Front Office, players who haven't developed in 3 years, and aging players on defense.
The name of the game for the defense is SPEED. The Giants don't have any now and never have. That's not the fault of the coaches and you can't coach that up.
Reese should be gone and the rest of the scouting department needs a shakeup.
I don't think Fewell is so bad but he just doesn't have the players he needs (see above - no speed). He shouldn't be the fall guy for bad drafting.
It's hard to say that the offensive coaches are bad. They have been able to develop TEs, although the guy who developed them is gone. Someone has been able to put together offensive lines in the past but Diehl and Snee were Day 1 starters so you can't say anyone was really developed. There are two Day 1 starters (although both may be playing out of position). Maybe the line will develop - maybe it won't. WR (Randle) hasn't developed but Cruz did. Beckham will be solid. Others like Jernigan are gone.
- I think this team already bottomed out last year during the 0-6 run. I don't see that same level of struggle this year. I think the offense is on the upswing with young players basically everywhere.
The defense is the area of greatest concern. The two cornerstone players and supposed leaders, Rolle and JPP, are good players but are not the type of people you want to put any sort of faith in. This is the area where you get the feeling that effort is a problem. Outside of Hankins and Amukamara I don't feel great about any player on this side of the ball.
- More than ever a head coach is a CEO, and I think Coughlin is as good in that area as any. I do think it's time for change from Fewell and Quinn, though those decisions should probably be made by Coughlin (a hierarchy that may have already been interrupted by the McAdoo move...which I think has turned out to be a good one).
- I think Reese had some bad drafts from 2008-2012. Some of that was his fault (Austin, Barden, Jernigan, Hosely), some wasn't (Phillips, Wilson, Jones). Most fundamentally he is indisputably a great talent evaluator. I don't think that's a guy you let walk. I think the errors of those drafts have largely been rectified in the 2013-2014 drafts; that should start bearing serious fruit next year.
What I would do:
- Keep Reese. I think he's got his fastball back.
- Sign Coughlin to a 4 year extension (basically a 3 year deal). Have serious discussions with him behind closed doors about Fewell and Quinn. If the Gilbride/McAdoo situation happened over his head, then maybe talk to him about doing the same with those guys...but does that make him walk? Impossible to know the dynamics from the outside.
- Do NOT retain JPP or Rolle. Use that cap space and draft resources to obtain the following:
- Veteran nasty OL (Mike Iupati in FA is the first name that comes to mind)
- A MIKE LB that likes hitting people, and can instill that nature in his defensive teammates. Obviously this and any other defensive additions would depend heavily on whether Fewell is retained; if he isn't then his replacement obviously must provide maximum input.
- A WR to push Randle down the depth chart. I imagine we've all seen enough to know what he is.
I don't think this team is all that far away, especially in this roulette wheel of a league. On the field I think the defense is the most immediate concern...there is a serious lack of hunger on that side of the ball.
Does it happen? Yes, but how?
A team has a poor record, despite the fact it has talent on the team.....it has a front office, that makes all the right moves...hires the right coach.....drafts the right players....signs the missing pieces via free agency....has no major injuries.....and just about all of that is related to pure, simple, luck....
Can the Giants do it? Do they have enough talent? Do they have a front office that can make the "right moves"? Do the have the right HC and staff to go forward? Luck? they are short of that....used it all up in '07 and mainly '11.....
So those that think this team does not need a rebuild, must have the utmost confidence in TC and this front office and ownership, to do a complete 180, in the way they have run this team......
Since Parcells' last season, there has obviously been seasons of great achievement, but in no time since he left has there been any consistent stretch of dominant football. We're looking at a sample of 25 seasons where we've won 11+ games only 4 times, won 12 games twice, and won only 5 division titles.
Flags fly forever, but the overwhelming majority of this team's existence since Parcells has been decidedly average or worse. Until ownership takes a hard look at the front office, I see more of the same going forward.
1. The cap isn't really the issue. A lot of media preach you can't sustain a solid roster if the QB is making too much. That's false IMO. The CBA doesn't allocate a lot of cap space for draft picks and those picks are under control for upwards of 5 years for 1st rounds (4 years for 2nd rounders) ,etc. If the team drafts well, the cap is pretty easy to manage.
2. Loyalty - no question my loyalty lies with the Giants and not name on the back of the jersey. As far as Eli, his number is very manageable. He could stay at $19 million per year or the Giants could say here is $15 million and tie in more guaranteed money. His number is manageable.
3. There is no Andrew Luck in the draft. There will come a day (ironically) when the Giants, Steelers and Chargers might all be in the market for the next good QB. That day isn't today. Starting over by parting ways with Eli doesn't mean the Giants will draft better.
Bottom line; Eli or no Eli, the Giants need to draft better b/c Eli's cap number isn't the issue and there is no Andrew Luck in the draft.
Again, don't cut Walton. He may not be a star or even an average center, but 2015 is the last year of his deal and he'd be valuable depth. Richburg/Pugh are both cheap so you can have a slightly better paid backup (and his deal isn't that bad).
Draft/sign a mauling OG and go into the season with: Beatty-draft pick/FA-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh
The run blocking has been poor (though let's see how they look with Jennings back), but the pass protection has been above average.
They know not to restructure Beatty. There is no way the Giants are giving him more guaranteed money (which is what a restructure does).
Walton is done.
IMO, signing Iupati is much less risky than hoping for that "mauling" Guard b/c we've seen how often these guys miss on draft day. At least with Iupati, you know what you're getting.
Quote:
they likely don't need the cap room and a restructure just increases the future penalty for cutting him. Keep him in 2015 at his existing pay structure and then they can replace him in the 2016 offseason if they find a better tackle.
Again, don't cut Walton. He may not be a star or even an average center, but 2015 is the last year of his deal and he'd be valuable depth. Richburg/Pugh are both cheap so you can have a slightly better paid backup (and his deal isn't that bad).
Draft/sign a mauling OG and go into the season with: Beatty-draft pick/FA-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh
The run blocking has been poor (though let's see how they look with Jennings back), but the pass protection has been above average.
They know not to restructure Beatty. There is no way the Giants are giving him more guaranteed money (which is what a restructure does).
Walton is done.
IMO, signing Iupati is much less risky than hoping for that "mauling" Guard b/c we've seen how often these guys miss on draft day. At least with Iupati, you know what you're getting.
My post was in response to someone advocating a restructure for Beatty.
I'd be fine signing Iupati. An OL of Beatty-Iupati-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh could be very good (IMO). Add another WR weapon and hope Donnell/Williams continue to improve and the offense would be fairly set.
JPP is not a guy I want to invest in for the long term. Let Rolle walk. I think the offense is heading in the right direction. Shore up the O-line some more and get another playmaker at wide receiver. I've seen enough of Randle. He is a number 3 receiver at best. I think we need another receiver with Cruz's injury.
Keep Coughlin and McAdoo, but Fewell is gone.
Continue bringing talent in through FA and the draft with a focus on both lines.
Sign a vet WR who wont have health issues and can be trusted by Eli. Sign a quality TE or LB please.
Fewell and Quinn need to be replaced.
Re-sign Rolle and JPP without breaking the bank. Build a defense around Rolle, Prince, DRC, JPP, Hankins, and Moore
One would think that Prince, OBJ, Hankins, Moore, Kennard, Pugh, Richburg, Williams will all be better next year and hopefully we can get healthy seasons out of Thurmond, Schwartz, and Jennings
I don't pretend to know enough to suggest a turn around plan so my comments really are based on what I precieve the Giants plan was; does it look like it a good one but totally derailed by injuries, their plan stunk & it's obvious they need a redo, or something in between. Trying not to be to long -
Players - liked what they did in the draft. No taking chances with picks in attempts to hit homeruns. We need to get younger can only do so if picks stick. Free agency including resigns, thought Reese did a good job. This wasn't going to be a one year rebuild. Team would look whole lot better if these guys weren't playing injured and or missing games; Jennings,DRC,Schwartz,Thurmond,McBride,Beason,Fells. So in short continue the process.
Coaching - Assuming TC still wants to stay, keep in place he is a good HC allowing MacAdoo to develop as a potential HC. The new offensive scheme is better considering new practice rules. Fewell I suspect was kept because he was considered a potential HC choice. This needs to be revisited not because he is a bad coach ( never had a roster with big holes ) but it does appear he is losing his players. Also similar to the Offense his scheme maybe just to complicated for practice rules. Would bring in young coach with more sustainable scheme. Let two young coordinators duke it out for future HC.
Oops guess I did get to long.
This year was always going to be a rebuilding year with a small margin for error in order to make the playoffs. They got hit with too many injuries and now its a bad team. The offense is on the upswing but needs to continue building the OL. The progress the offense has made in spite of OL, WR, and RB injuries is why I think you stay the course.
Theres a general attitude of negativity on BBI that if this team is not super bowl caliber they are light years away and sweeping changes are needed. It seems like an opinion based on emotion and not logic.
Regardless of what all the people did on the past the FO has been very unsuccessful.
Reese was hired as a GM and had a franchise QB who was a major factor in winning both SuperBowls. His draft strategy is WR, DB, and DL. Everything else he tried to bargain basement shop. Once the OL fell apart and his immobile QB was getting killed he then has had to draft two OL in the last two years. Even w that At this point no one on this planet knows if the OL is 1, 2, or even 3 players away. He's missed on a ton of picks. He's signed or resigned players who haven't performed up to what he gave them. Not sure where Chris Mara fits in but he wouldn't be in his job if is name was Jones.
Coughlin was a great coach but until he had no choice he refused to change his O even though the NFL changed its rules and he needed to adapt. His DC is about as UN-innovative as there is. And for whatever reason his players seriously seem to either don't know or don't care what he's coaching
Clean sweep. It's over due sadly
- Jerry Reese goes. Hire new GM. Let him/her hire a coach.
- Keep the OC, maybe make him head coach. Just installed an offense, don't want to do it again.
- Let the new head coach hire all the assistants.
- Keep Eli, extend him and open up some cap space.
- Keep JPP if it makes sense cap-wise. We don't have anyone else.
- I'd keep Rolle if it makes sense cap-wise.
- BPA in draft, Defense First, OL 2nd.
In other words, it is damn near starting over from scratch. Right now this team is a BAD expanison team and nothing else.
And amazingly some people want to entrust Reese with the power again despite the overwhelming proof he's incompetent.