I will go on record saying that QB is one of the top priorities for NYG heading in to next year.
1 - Yes, i know there is plenty of season left. But the statement will stand.
2 - No, this is not an "emotional" reaction. I haven't been attached to this team in that way for quite some time...I am speaking from a perspective of a NFL fan that watches several games per week. Manning is a bottom half, possibly bottom third QB in this league. He isn't young. He is very expensive. He hurts the NYG future more than he helps.
You will know more about OT/OG when the 2nd round comes about. I would be in favor of moving Pugh inside and draft a stud OT as well.
Now Eli wants absurd money on an extension, then you pass and move on. But what if he takes a friendly deal that gives us flexibility? Do you wanna pass on that?
As of right now I say no to Mariota and Winston but I still have a lot of tape to watch there...so don't hold me to it yet.
I am all for drafting another position with their probable top 10 selection spot. Again it is all about the grades...but that doesn't mean I just shove the QB situation under the rug.
I would be all for Cooper in round 1, OL in round 2. And some money being spent on OL in the FA market. But the second a QB value becomes available, I would go for it. That was not my opinion last year. Thats all I am saying but as usual a bunch of emotional and attached fans took it otherwise.
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understood and I respect your views.
What do you think NYG should do with Manning's contract? He is a FA after next season. He will be 35 after next season.
Honestly, I would extend him until he is 37-38. Pay him his big money up front, that way the Giants can move on with minimal cap impact when Eli is beyond 38. If the next Andrew Luck was out there I could see an argument, but right now it seems like the only prudent thing to do, especially given all the problems with the roster.
Understood. I will respectfully disagree that he should be given a 4-5 year extension at this point.
Right now he has the weight of the world on his shoulders and probably feels it's up to him to force a win for the Gmen.
Outside of today's weekly debacle, Eli has had a good year.
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In comment 11981995 Sy'56 said:
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understood and I respect your views.
What do you think NYG should do with Manning's contract? He is a FA after next season. He will be 35 after next season.
Honestly, I would extend him until he is 37-38. Pay him his big money up front, that way the Giants can move on with minimal cap impact when Eli is beyond 38. If the next Andrew Luck was out there I could see an argument, but right now it seems like the only prudent thing to do, especially given all the problems with the roster.
Understood. I will respectfully disagree that he should be given a 4-5 year extension at this point.
If I felt we could realistically upgrade (get a Brady, Rodgers, Peyton or Luck) then I would agree with you, but those guys are once in a decade type talents and none are available. We have to deal with what is, not what we wish it to be. Fact remains, Eli is a step below the Elite QBs in the league, but still a cut above the rest.
Right now he has the weight of the world on his shoulders and probably feels it's up to him to force a win for the Gmen.
Outside of today's weekly debacle, Eli has had a good year.
Agreed, lost in all this is the fact that up until today Eli was having the season we all wanted to see from him. This is all a bunch of reactionary short-sightedness.
I'd have no problem with Mara / Reese telling Eli to " prove it" in 2015 before getting a big contract.
When the OL has been stabilized, then look at other positions.
I'd have no problem with Mara / Reese telling Eli to " prove it" in 2015 before getting a big contract.
Would agree, fix the OL. But I think Reese and Co. will give Eli a new deal, if for no other reason than to lower his impact on the cap in 2015 so they can make more moves in the off-season.
Nobody thought those guys were elite when they came out. Just like we can't say these QBs in the upcoming class aren't elite. My point stands...a bigger priority needs to be put on upgrading the QB position. For the tenth time today...that does not mean Manning is cut this offseason. It does not mean a 1st round QB is selected. But IF the grade is there.....pull the trigger.
The priorities are: WR (Randle is mediocre at best and VC is a ?. We need some size at WR), RT (move Pugh inside-we need someone for RT that can move the pile), RB (Need a faster type back to complement Williams), LB (no comments necessary). Those are the priorities. However, the number one priority should be getting rid of that waste of space, Marc Ross. He is the worst draft talent evaluator in the NFL.
Nobody thought those guys were elite when they came out. Just like we can't say these QBs in the upcoming class aren't elite. My point stands...a bigger priority needs to be put on upgrading the QB position. For the tenth time today...that does not mean Manning is cut this offseason. It does not mean a 1st round QB is selected. But IF the grade is there.....pull the trigger.
Not sure how those examples matter. Admittedly I am not sold on Mariotta or Winston, but if a top QB was falling and the Giants had a luxury pick then sure, but they don't. Green Bay drafted Rodgers as the heir apparent to Favre when the team did not have a lot of holes. The Pats drafted Brady as on after though. If you are just hoping the Giants get lucky in the draft, then sure, so do I. But the idea that we should prepare to move on from Eli based on the Rodgers or Brady scenario is like trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Probably not going to happen and you can't plan for it.
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Brady was a 6th round pick. Rodgers was closer to a 2nd round pick than he was the top 3 overall.
Nobody thought those guys were elite when they came out. Just like we can't say these QBs in the upcoming class aren't elite. My point stands...a bigger priority needs to be put on upgrading the QB position. For the tenth time today...that does not mean Manning is cut this offseason. It does not mean a 1st round QB is selected. But IF the grade is there.....pull the trigger.
Not sure how those examples matter. Admittedly I am not sold on Mariotta or Winston, but if a top QB was falling and the Giants had a luxury pick then sure, but they don't. Green Bay drafted Rodgers as the heir apparent to Favre when the team did not have a lot of holes. The Pats drafted Brady as on after though. If you are just hoping the Giants get lucky in the draft, then sure, so do I. But the idea that we should prepare to move on from Eli based on the Rodgers or Brady scenario is like trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Probably not going to happen and you can't plan for it.
Not at all. But the point is if the value is there...it is foolish to pass on. QB makes the biggest difference on a team and there ir no debating that. A QB's salary can also prevent the team from upgrading the rest of the roster...there is no debating that either. With those facts in mind...spending a pick on a guy that is valued there can't be overlooked in this situation.
Look at Wilson and Kaepernick. Kaepernick got a huge payday and Wilson is next, and neither of those guys are nearly as good as Eli Manning as passers.
Their teams have to build around their contracts to.
Paying the QB tax is just the facts of life in today's NFL, period.
Look at what the Bears paid Jay Cutler.
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In comment 11982243 Sy'56 said:
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Brady was a 6th round pick. Rodgers was closer to a 2nd round pick than he was the top 3 overall.
Nobody thought those guys were elite when they came out. Just like we can't say these QBs in the upcoming class aren't elite. My point stands...a bigger priority needs to be put on upgrading the QB position. For the tenth time today...that does not mean Manning is cut this offseason. It does not mean a 1st round QB is selected. But IF the grade is there.....pull the trigger.
Not sure how those examples matter. Admittedly I am not sold on Mariotta or Winston, but if a top QB was falling and the Giants had a luxury pick then sure, but they don't. Green Bay drafted Rodgers as the heir apparent to Favre when the team did not have a lot of holes. The Pats drafted Brady as on after though. If you are just hoping the Giants get lucky in the draft, then sure, so do I. But the idea that we should prepare to move on from Eli based on the Rodgers or Brady scenario is like trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Probably not going to happen and you can't plan for it.
Not at all. But the point is if the value is there...it is foolish to pass on. QB makes the biggest difference on a team and there ir no debating that. A QB's salary can also prevent the team from upgrading the rest of the roster...there is no debating that either. With those facts in mind...spending a pick on a guy that is valued there can't be overlooked in this situation.
Well the Giants did that with Nasib. If a QB with a first round grade slips I think the Giants would be willing to take him, but I highly doubt they will be considering it in the 1st round this year. Far too many problems in the trenches to spend a 1st round pick on a QB who won't play.
This team's problems are not at the QB position. Just about everywhere else...but not the QB.
He has 4 WR's that can stretch a defense, a good back, and a decent offensive line.
Other than Beckham, name a Giants' offensive player that gets playing time on the Packers.
cruz and maybe donnell
Eli is not the problem.
This team could really become solid NEXT YEAR on offense if we just go out and get the best UFA RT available; hope that Pugh and Richburg develop at OG and OC; and, Schwartz rounds out at the other OG. Beatty is serviceable.
Draft an OT round #1 and let him learn / play a bit his rookie year. Then we need to load up on defense cause we have none.
What team is going to offer a big deal his way? Just not going to happen. Offer him what his ability and performance commands..... And that is a mediocre deal that allows us to spend and retain other positional talent
Yup
Second, even if you don't love Eli, the Giants have far too many legitimate holes on their roster to spend any time or effort even scouting QBs this year. Third, there still is the possibility they are willing and intending to go with Nassib in a couple of years.
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Eli over Mariota. Eli over Winston. Agree Agree Agree
But again you've missed my point which was if there ends up being a grade high enough at QB, I think they should go after it.
Dismissing both of our opinions about Mariota....say the NYG has a top 3 overall grade on him, and he ends up being available when NYG is on the clock. It's hard to pass on that considering the economic and long term future. Manning and his salary may not be better than a top 3 overall prospect that is a lot cheaper...opening up money to spend on OL, LB, WR, TE...etc. Agree or disagree?
If we have a top 3 pick, and we dont take Armani Cooper, Reese should be fired at the spot.
You nede dynamic playmakers in the NFL. WE HAVE 1!!!!!!!!!
Yeah because Atlanta who took Julio Jones has won so many Superbowls right? They had White Jones and Gonzales. Hard to get better than those 3.
Cooper is a wasted pick not because he won't be great but because the Giants OL sucks balls. As well as the LBs and the DL right now looks little better.
Atlanta which also ignored both its OL and DL is going to suck for a while. Justine the Giants if hey don't fix the OL. We took OBJ. CRUZ will be back. Too many holes and another WR?
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Check out the Packers.
He has 4 WR's that can stretch a defense, a good back, and a decent offensive line.
Other than Beckham, name a Giants' offensive player that gets playing time on the Packers.
cruz and maybe donnell
Cruz most certainly could not start over Cobb. Are you insane?
What team is going to offer a big deal his way? Just not going to happen. Offer him what his ability and performance commands..... And that is a mediocre deal that allows us to spend and retain other positional talent
I am not certain that there is not another NFL team that would offer Eli big bucks.
In fact, I think there would be many.
They have bigger problems than QB almost everywhere on the field. And no QB is going to win with this shit team.
That being said, here are some realities...
1. There is no QB just sitting out there, not starting for another team that is better than Eli right now.
2. Eli making $20 million is far too much considering the rest of the holes on this team.
3. We NEED for Eli to take a cut down to $10mm so that we can sign at least 2 quality O linemen. If we don't do this, we will watch a repeat of this season next year.
4. I think the only way it makes sense for any of this crazy talk about moving Eli off of this team is this..... If some other team comes knocking asking for a trade and we are able to get a younger guy like Tannehil who probably makes a lot less and can make plays in this league. THEN, MAYBE... However, I dont see a team like the Dolphins or any other team for that matter looking to trade for Eli. Especially not with the $20 million price tag.
5. I think our pass plays are taking too long to develop. Eli is getting nailed and our WRs are not even making their breaks yet. There is typically not much open over the middle. Very few crossing patterns at the 12-15 yard mark. We also STILL have not figured out how to successfully run the screen. This combined with a cement footed Eli means the pass rush is coming after him with their ears pinned back.
Again... Eli is not going to be a problem for us if we give him a running game and an O-line that can block long enough for him to make a smart decision with the ball.
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Cruz most certainly could not start over Cobb. Are you insane?
Agreed. In fact, about a month ago I argued that right now (before Cruz got injured) Golden Tate is better than Cruz. We tend to think of Victor as the same amazing player that we saw two years ago. He isn't unfortunately. However, he is still a very productive WR for us. Just not a top performer in the league anymore
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In comment 11982353 CGiants07 said:
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Cruz most certainly could not start over Cobb. Are you insane?
Agreed. In fact, about a month ago I argued that right now (before Cruz got injured) Golden Tate is better than Cruz. We tend to think of Victor as the same amazing player that we saw two years ago. He isn't unfortunately. However, he is still a very productive WR for us. Just not a top performer in the league anymore
I hate to agree...but it is probably true.
the slot receiver (like Cobb or Cruz) or any receiver really is better when there is a receiver like Jordy Nelson lining up opposite them.
Like Cruz had with a healthy Nicks.
I like the prospects this offense has with one more weapon and a rebuilt OL.
the slot receiver (like Cobb or Cruz) or any receiver really is better when there is a receiver like Jordy Nelson lining up opposite them.
Like Cruz had with a healthy Nicks.
I like the prospects this offense has with one more weapon and a rebuilt OL.
As do I. Despite all the Eli negativity going around today. I am excited to see what a 2015 NYG Offense with a running game and one more passing game playmaker can do!
Agree 100%. The third option is the key because then you get mismatches. Defenses can take one guy away, maybe two, but most can't take away 3 and you're left with a mismatch IMO.
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and pair him with OBJ, Donnell at TE, and then Cruz on the slot - thats scary options. Cruz can be taken out of the game. But if you bring in stud WRs.... he becomes much, much more dangerous and productive. RR aint making Cruz better.
Agree 100%. The third option is the key because then you get mismatches. Defenses can take one guy away, maybe two, but most can't take away 3 and you're left with a mismatch IMO.
Exactly. Teams are going to shadow both OBJ and even Donnell. Leaving Parker and Randle left 1 on 1 all game. Randle made a few nice plays, but when push came to shove - he couldnt make a play that helped us win. This is a weekly thing. The fade in the end zone still blows my mind. Never even went up to grab. Let it come to him.
Doesn't matter if he's thrown the ball or night. With the rules in the NFL being what they are, the only way to stop most offenses is to knock the QB down/out. and that's what teams will do.
See Falcons, Atlanta.
Unfortunately, all of this talk is just fantasy until the O-line can be solidified.
Doesn't matter if he's thrown the ball or night. With the rules in the NFL being what they are, the only way to stop most offenses is to knock the QB down/out. and that's what teams will do.
See Falcons, Atlanta.
I did include a rebuilt OL and that implied improved, obviously it starts there, but GB never had a ridiculously good OL, but their offense was built to mitigate it.
Give Eli a clean pocket and he can make plays. It's that simple.
How does Eli play the rest of 2014?
Is there a blue chip QB or two that the Giants will have access to?
Would the Giants trade Eli, if so what would be the return?
Would Eli take a pay cut?
Will Reese's job be in jeopardy?
Will be interesting watching it play out. If Eli regresses the rest of the season, that will drive a lot of chatter I'm sure. If he plays well, I think this will all be void.
They started JD Walton, John Jerry, and Charles Brown (along with a slightly overmatched rookie and a disappointing tackle) along the o-line. By the way, that's an IMPROVEMENT over last season's dumpster fire OL.
Saying they need to move on from Eli is basically stating that with an actual OL and quality weapons, he would still be a below average player. There's no way on Earth I'm ready to say that.
I expected to read something more intelligent from Sy of all people.
No one could be successful with last year's OL and this year's, while better, still leaves a lot to be desired.
Eli is still a very good QB just getting into the swing of things with a new offensive system and a C grade OL. In this league, a franchise QB is the difference maker. Put Eli on the Jets and see what happens.
If you think Eli is a problem then the Giants should be working on a trade right now. Look at teams like the Jets or even now the Eagles before you underestimate the importance of a franchise QB.
You can make a rational argument pointing to all the holes on this team, his salary, and what you might receive in a trade. But, I think that would be a huge mistake.
It all starts up front - OL, pass rush and run stopping DTs - you can fix a lot of that in FA and the draft.
Easy to move on from Eli after 2015 if the new guys think progress can be made faster pursuing another direction.
We try to make a deal with a team like the Texans who are only a top-notch experienced QB short of contention. Because of Eli's age we probably can't hope for anything better than a third-round pick. We should be able to get a nice player and immense cap relief.
If we can manage to lose two of three to a combination of Tenn, Jax and Wash, we have a good chance at a top-five pick. That MUST BE a big stud left tackle. Beatty goes to the right side, the current RT midget goes to the weight room and moves to guard. The current LG goes to center, where he belongs and we hope Schwartz is going to fully recover from the toe injury and return to being a pile-driving guard. That's a start.
I don't care how many of you I annoy with this, but IMHO JPP flourished large measure because Tuck and Osi were immortal pass rushers. On his own he's not showing me much of the most important ingredient in a DE's job resume. I don't think he's worth a long-term cap-killing contract.
I hope TC retires before he turns himself into a coach with a .500 career record. It's not his fault. That lies with Reese and Ross, who gave a us projects like the midget tight end Beckum and Ramses Barden. If Mara doesn't act after all his talk of accountability then we might be looking at a lot more horrible football. Reese and Ross should be fired.
A new GM will want his own HC, and TC might be 71-72 before we're ready to return to top-notch contention. The new HC probably will want his own coordinators, so wavwe goodbye to Perry Fool and Wackadoo. I love TC and Eli, but nothing lasts forever and we're failing miserably.
So, I agree with those who say it's time to blow it up.
You can no longer just write Manning in as the QB. There are some tough questions you have to ask. Even if you can fix all or most of the other problem spots on the roster in 2-3 years, how good will Manning be then and for how long? Keeping Manning is a pretty big roll of the dice at this point, too.
At this time, there are no easy answers for NYG.