I will go on record saying that QB is one of the top priorities for NYG heading in to next year.
1 - Yes, i know there is plenty of season left. But the statement will stand.
2 - No, this is not an "emotional" reaction. I haven't been attached to this team in that way for quite some time...I am speaking from a perspective of a NFL fan that watches several games per week. Manning is a bottom half, possibly bottom third QB in this league. He isn't young. He is very expensive. He hurts the NYG future more than he helps.
But I will say that the line he is playing on has exactly one guy I will call an NFL starter and he is a rookie. put him behind a decent oline and Eli can still play.
Second, have you seen the fucking roster? Our O-Line? Our WRs? Our TEs? Our running game? Could ANY QB succeed with these players?
Third, we have too many fucking needs. Eli really is the least of our problems. We need help at every position BUT QB.
Factor in a soft defense with no linebackers, injuries out the wazoo in the defensive backfield, and here we are.
I'm sure we would get a first rounder for him, right?
Also, I think it's hyperbolic to describe Eli as a bottom half to third QB.
He'll shut up and take the blame 100 times out of 100.
I don't think Eli's been worth what he's been paid the past couple of seasons, or worth what he's likely expecting in an extension. I don't think he's one of the top-5 QBs, probably around 10 somewhere (if he has a roster and a coaching staff that let him actually play a game of football without running for his life). Bottom 3rd? That's damn funny.
The maddening inconsistency, and inability to get more out of his players has to stop. Also if you are not pinpoint accurate like Brady or the other Manning, you better be mobile in this league, he made one play on a broken play, you see that stuff from QB's all over the league all the time
Jerry and Brown shouldn't be on an NFL Roster. Beatty is severely over paid. Walton is a bench type. Pugh was injured today but looks like he will have to move.
Mariotta or Winston will be hard to pass up but this OL is a shit show and Reese should not be the guy to hire a new coach or to draft an pick on the tip 5 range. He's the reason this team is devoid of depth and strapped to the cap
One bad game this year (albeit a very bad game) and he looks worse than ever. Get ahold of yourself. Eli has one of these a year, you can book it.
He was absolute shit today and I have no problem with them moving on from him (as we suck and he's useless in stopping that from happening), but he's not a bottom third of the league QB.
Jerry and Brown shouldn't be on an NFL Roster. Beatty is severely over paid. Walton is a bench type. Pugh was injured today but looks like he will have to move.
Mariotta or Winston will be hard to pass up but this OL is a shit show and Reese should not be the guy to hire a new coach or to draft an pick on the tip 5 range. He's the reason this team is devoid of depth and strapped to the cap
Well said, finally some reality.
Eli knew where to go, faced down two blitzing niners, who coming homer free, took hit and delivered the ball on time and accurate.
I think only he the best of pro QB's can do that
He has 4 WR's that can stretch a defense, a good back, and a decent offensive line.
Other than Beckham, name a Giants' offensive player that gets playing time on the Packers.
Out come the same, Niners win by three scores.
But the point is...an upgrade at QB is needed. I understand it won't fall in to NYG's lap...but it is a legit need.
Damn, losses really bring out the idiots. Eli is done here, yeah whatever.
But the point is...an upgrade at QB is needed. I understand it won't fall in to NYG's lap...but it is a legit need.
Upgrade? Name one!
The skill positions are bottom 3rd. ODB is great, thats it. The o line cant block anyone.
He makes too much money and he kills the cap. They need to restructure him.
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Let's not be foolish. There is a lot of scouting to be done. And there are some potential QB shakeups around the league that could happen.
But the point is...an upgrade at QB is needed. I understand it won't fall in to NYG's lap...but it is a legit need.
Upgrade? Name one!
You can't name one yet. It is November. We don't know who will declare for the draft. We don't know who will be available via FA.
Care to elaborate? I was killed for giving Borland a 1st round grade too. How did he do today? And last week? And the week before?
Interesting
He looks worse than ever? Aside from today's game, he had 17 TDs and 6 INTs with a 93 Passer Rating, a FARCRY from the last few years.
And I disagree, our "weapons" are at the bottom of the league. Jennings, who was injured, Beckham Jr. and to an extent, Beatty and Donnell, are the only passable talent on the offense. The rest of the players have been an absolute shitshow.
And that's is the bottom line and the elephant in the room. It's one thing if you are Rodgers and able to make plays with his arm and feet and stay alive. Peyton quick accurate throws even if they are ducks. Eli isn't that type of QB. He needs help and these guys won't play for peanuts.
We have one offseason to upgrade the line thru draft and free agency, cruz will be back next year, ODB a year wiser, another year with the offense...too early for this thread. Plus theres nothing notable QB wise in this draft.
And be honest how good were we when we twice one the Super Bowls with Manning? He drains money from the rest of the team. We do not get our moneys worth
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In comment 11981556 Sy'56 said:
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Let's not be foolish. There is a lot of scouting to be done. And there are some potential QB shakeups around the league that could happen.
But the point is...an upgrade at QB is needed. I understand it won't fall in to NYG's lap...but it is a legit need.
Upgrade? Name one!
You can't name one yet. It is November. We don't know who will declare for the draft. We don't know who will be available via FA.
Respectfully, that is some piss poor logic. You have a two time Superbowl winning QB, who up until today has had a great year and you want to dump him for a rookie. You have not thought this through.
I am all for paying $20+ million to a QB that can make up for shortcomings around him and make other players appear better than they actually are.
Come on.......because his int's are way down? Wins, that what make great QB's
Brady has Gronk and a legit OL
Rodgers has 4 good WRs and a strong running game
Peyton has some of the best weapons in the game
Which QB out there actually rises above the shortcomings?
Meaning? I understand the overall frustration of NYG fans after a game like this. But if you make multiple attempts to get personal with someone over the internet...let's pump the brakes and consider what you are actually doing. Come on man. Someone has an opinion that differs from yours...and instead of discussing football you want to try and make things personal. That's just off and I hope you realize that.
The 5 INTs sucked, but he, frankly, didn't look worse today than he did at almost any point last year and he's, on the whole, been solid this season before this one given what he's been handed.
Maybe that's just my opinion, but I've had it backed up by someone who gets paid by a quality organization to judge/evaluate talent, so I'll go with it for now.
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on those statements. I believe Sy's talent evaluations are way off the mark in general.
Care to elaborate? I was killed for giving Borland a 1st round grade too. How did he do today? And last week? And the week before?
I dont give Borland a first round grade. Herzlich would probably look pretty good playing behind that SF D line
But the point is...an upgrade at QB is needed. I understand it won't fall in to NYG's lap...but it is a legit need.
Let's just hope you aren't the one doing the scouting.
To say that he is bottom 3rd is just not accurate and any of the "elite guys" would be having a tough time with this OL and complete lack of a running game..
C'mon I would hope you are better than that...
Come on.......because his int's are way down? Wins, that what make great QB's
I would consider 17TDs, 6 picks, 2,215yds, 63% completion and a 93 QBR to be a pretty darn good year!
Eli is 33 and still has plenty of good years left.
Hampton had been declining for two years and well on his way to eating his way out of a job.
Brady has Gronk and a legit OL
Rodgers has 4 good WRs and a strong running game
Peyton has some of the best weapons in the game
Which QB out there actually rises above the shortcomings?
Well...
Brady has who at RB? and WR?
How about Luck making others better.
Not sure I agree with Rodgers and having 4 good WRs...but even that asise that OL has been almost as bad as NYG for 2 years now. I think Big Ben is a guy that makes other guys better. Same with Rivers. Again...thats just the feel I get when watching these teams play.
And in the NFL today, you can do no such thing.
That may be true. Eli is in a bad spot with this line.
But back to my original point...the playcalling can't depend on him to make plays with his feet. And it seems this year he has lost his ability to move within the pocket. Several times today he was moved in the pocket but he had room to to shuffle and still throw. He couldn't do that today and he couldn't do it against PHI, IND, and SEA.
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A QB who makes up for the MASSIVE shortcomings around him.
Brady has Gronk and a legit OL
Rodgers has 4 good WRs and a strong running game
Peyton has some of the best weapons in the game
Which QB out there actually rises above the shortcomings?
Well...
Brady has who at RB? and WR?
How about Luck making others better.
Not sure I agree with Rodgers and having 4 good WRs...but even that asise that OL has been almost as bad as NYG for 2 years now. I think Big Ben is a guy that makes other guys better. Same with Rivers. Again...thats just the feel I get when watching these teams play.
Fine, we'll play this game. Brady has Gronk, who is uncoverable. Doesn't matter if you have a stud RB if your line can block, which his can. LaFell has come on as a presence outside, and Edelman is a steady slot guy who moves the chains. Also, go back to earlier in the year when Gronk was hurt, and they were missing pieces on the line...Brady stunk. So many of us expect one player to make miracles...well it's not reality.
I'd like to think after that, we'd be done with arguments he can't elevate other players.
He does have a lot of Brett Favre in him and sometimes that helps him, sometimes not. People forget that about Eli too often.
And be honest how good were we when we twice one the Super Bowls with Manning? He drains money from the rest of the team. We do not get our moneys worth
This. He's the QB of a 3-7 team, that stinks. He doesn't lift the level of play of those around him, this has always been my knock on Eli. He is not a leader of men.
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QB in the NFL that could win w this line. That doesn't mean Elinis blameless or part of the problem but even w OBJ being awesome this OL is killing the team again
That may be true. Eli is in a bad spot with this line.
But back to my original point...the playcalling can't depend on him to make plays with his feet. And it seems this year he has lost his ability to move within the pocket. Several times today he was moved in the pocket but he had room to to shuffle and still throw. He couldn't do that today and he couldn't do it against PHI, IND, and SEA.
Eli's great shortcoming has always been his inability to move. You really think he is that much slower now?
Would trade LaFell and Edelman for Randle and Parker in a heartbeat!
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LaFell and Edelman would be doing exactly what on other teams? Come on.
Would trade LaFell and Edelman for Randle and Parker in a heartbeat!
Trash for trash.
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In comment 11981724 Sy'56 said:
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LaFell and Edelman would be doing exactly what on other teams? Come on.
Would trade LaFell and Edelman for Randle and Parker in a heartbeat!
Trash for trash.
Edleman has 54 catches on the year, what are you talking about?
All I wanted to say is that the QB position needs to be upgraded from a personnel and economic perspective...and here we are talking about Edelman and Parker.
Not even close.
My argument is that Brady makes others better. Thats why he is considered one of the best of all time. To be honest...trying to compare anything Brady does to Manning in an effort to say Manning is a big time QB is foolish.
Let me ask you this...do you think Manning is a big time QB?
Which is all that really matters at this point. This is Eli's first in an offense being coached by a first year offensive cordinator. The two situations are nowhere comparable.
If you believe in Eli, you need to clean out the front office and get a new HC.
Which is all that really matters at this point. This is Eli's first in an offense being coached by a first year offensive cordinator. The two situations are nowhere comparable.
I'll partially agree with you. But a lot of what I saw in Manning's struggles last year are similar to what I see this year. Different offenses...and the one he was in last year was the one he was in for awhile.
I don''t think either of them are particularly fond of Manning. They seem to sing the praises off QBs with more mobility.
With even an average line Eli would be able to make this O a top ten offense. There are no weapons outside OBJ, jennings is good, not great, but the line is ATROCIOUS. No run game at all.
They would have rolled the Giants today.
Just not sure you know who Edelman is if he was on a team like Cincy or Dallas or Miami. Teams with solid but unspectacular QBs.
With even an average line Eli would be able to make this O a top ten offense. There are no weapons outside OBJ, jennings is good, not great, but the line is ATROCIOUS. No run game at all.
Winston in NYC? Not a chance. It's either Amari Cooper or a trade down because this team has so many holes
Brady, Rodgers and Peyton Manning are exceptions. They're special, elite QBs. So is Andrew Luck, who was the best QB prospect since maybe Elway. Any of the guys I mention in that class? Are they even in Eli's class?
The problem with it, was that very few other players got as good a grasp of it as Eli did. Those that did, thrived, those that didn't, struggled.
That's why the change to a WCO was so important. It's easier for all players to understand.
The change wasn't about the next year, it was about two years from now on and beyond.
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But its so fucking incredibly obvious that this line is responsible for this. How can you not see that?
With even an average line Eli would be able to make this O a top ten offense. There are no weapons outside OBJ, jennings is good, not great, but the line is ATROCIOUS. No run game at all.
Winston in NYC? Not a chance. It's either Amari Cooper or a trade down because this team has so many holes
I wouldn't be so sure. I think Jameis has the Jets written all over him.
Make finding a new QB a priority. That DOES NOT MEAN that the Giants get rid of Manning tomorrow or 4 months from now. But if they have a high enough grade on a guy in round 1, I say you go for it. Or if there is a value in FA or the trade market worth exploring, you go for it. 2 years ago I wouldn't say that. But I think more attention needs to be sent in that direction now.
For the record...if I had to give out grades on QBs on college right now, none of them would have a top 5 overall grade.
I feel that QB is the least of our priorities. We have a lot of other areas before we think about QB.
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if you were in charge of Giants?
But if they have a high enough grade on a guy in round 1, I say you go for it.
So we get a new QB without upgrading the team....hell, it worked for David Carr and the Texans...errr. Joey Harrington and the Lions? Alright, Carson Palmer and the Bengals...
And be honest how good were we when we twice one the Super Bowls with Manning? He drains money from the rest of the team. We do not get our moneys worth
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In comment 11981805 Sonic Youth said:
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But its so fucking incredibly obvious that this line is responsible for this. How can you not see that?
With even an average line Eli would be able to make this O a top ten offense. There are no weapons outside OBJ, jennings is good, not great, but the line is ATROCIOUS. No run game at all.
Winston in NYC? Not a chance. It's either Amari Cooper or a trade down because this team has so many holes
I wouldn't be so sure. I think Jameis has the Jets written all over him.
I mean for us. If our green cousins want to take a chance on Jameis and his antics in NYC then God bless them
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In comment 11981808 oldutican said:
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if you were in charge of Giants?
But if they have a high enough grade on a guy in round 1, I say you go for it.
So we get a new QB without upgrading the team....hell, it worked for David Carr and the Texans...errr. Joey Harrington and the Lions? Alright, Carson Palmer and the Bengals...
Why wouldn't NYG improve the rest of the team? Not sure I see your point there.
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Our results over the last 4 years have been unacceptable. How long must the honeymoon last for people?
And be honest how good were we when we twice one the Super Bowls with Manning? He drains money from the rest of the team. We do not get our moneys worth
you are a fool.
That post is really terrible considering the only reason that second SB happened was because Eli (and three WRs) largely dragged a terrible team along for most of the season, to at least keep them in contention.
The Giants MORE than got their money's worth out of Manning and the only reason his cap hit is now in the @20M+s range, not the $16m AAV, is because of their own restructuring previously
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Our results over the last 4 years have been unacceptable. How long must the honeymoon last for people?
And be honest how good were we when we twice one the Super Bowls with Manning? He drains money from the rest of the team. We do not get our moneys worth
This. He's the QB of a 3-7 team, that stinks. He doesn't lift the level of play of those around him, this has always been my knock on Eli. He is not a leader of men.
Put Eli on that team, even with an aging A. Johnson and hamstring-issue A. Foster, and that team is looking at the playoffs, guaranteed.
You also realize that some in Boston wanted Brady gone after this year based on the early part of the year? That was before he went nuts the last few weeks. Same BS I'm hearing here: too immobile; needs too much help to play well; too old.
Eli is driving me nuts with his persistence in throwing to Randle but that's just who he is. If he ever wins another Super Bowl, he should tell the Giants to retire his game trousers so Giants fans can kiss his ass.
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In comment 11981830 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 11981808 oldutican said:
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if you were in charge of Giants?
But if they have a high enough grade on a guy in round 1, I say you go for it.
So we get a new QB without upgrading the team....hell, it worked for David Carr and the Texans...errr. Joey Harrington and the Lions? Alright, Carson Palmer and the Bengals...
Why wouldn't NYG improve the rest of the team? Not sure I see your point there.
You're saying we should draft a QB in the first round if we have him ranked high enough, yet every single position on this team, without exception, needs an upgrade...except QB. So why would we draft a QB in the first round when we need to address literally every other position? If not draft, then why would we trade valuable draft picks to upgrade this team for a QB? Do you expect a different result with a new QB and the same ole' team?
Todays offensive line was
Brown - god awful
Jerry - God awful
Walton - god awful
Richburg - playing out of position
Beatty - average to ok.
His WRs were:
Randle - awful
Parker - building tiki huts last year
OBJ - promising rookie
His TEs are
Donnell - doing good this year
Fells - out of football last year
Robinson - waste of a roster spot.
So you OBJ/Richburg/Donnell and possibly Beatty who wouldnt make the team of some of the top teams in the league. They wouldnt be bench players - they would flat out be cut if they played on Denver, NE, GB, amongst other teams.
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I have been down on this OL far more than others for over 2 years. And I was blasted for that too....ironic
who has ever contended that this o-line has been good on this board?
I've been down on Beatty since day one. I've been calling for upgrade at C and G for 2 years. Both of which I was blasted for prior to 2013.
2011 Giants - 27th
2009 Saints - 25th
2001 Patriots - 24th
2006 Colts - 21st
1976 Raiders - 18th
1987 Redskins - 18th
Lowest-Ranked Scoring D to Win Super Bowl
2011 Giants - 25th
2006 Colts - 23rd
2009 Saints - 20th
2007 Giants - 17th
1983 Raiders - 13th
1976 Raiders - 12th
The Giants had the worst Defense in the history of the Superbowl and won. Did the defense play great that day? Yes.... Did Eli look like a world kill? I think so. Fix our O-line and D-line and you fix most of our issues. And get rid of Fewell....
The drafting needs to be much better than it has been. Getting a rookie QB will not fix everything, I know.
But it is a lot harder to upgrade a roster when your QB has such a high cap number. Agree or disagree?
Do you think Manning is a big time QB?
There are a couple posters who would argue otherwise just because, but largely, the OL sucking, including the interior, is biggest uniting topic on this board. The only issue in that regard is that people refuse to recognize when the problem actually started, pretending it just popped up in the second half of 2012, on and off.
Todays offensive line was
Brown - god awful
Jerry - God awful
Walton - god awful
Richburg - playing out of position
Beatty - average to ok.
His WRs were:
Randle - awful
Parker - building tiki huts last year
OBJ - promising rookie
His TEs are
Donnell - doing good this year
Fells - out of football last year
Robinson - waste of a roster spot.
So you OBJ/Richburg/Donnell and possibly Beatty who wouldnt make the team of some of the top teams in the league. They wouldnt be bench players - they would flat out be cut if they played on Denver, NE, GB, amongst other teams.
I agree, I think it is hard to argue that this is a good team.
The drafting needs to be much better than it has been. Getting a rookie QB will not fix everything, I know.
But it is a lot harder to upgrade a roster when your QB has such a high cap number. Agree or disagree?
Do you think Manning is a big time QB?
Plus you have a terrible defense. You gotta take premium players in the first 3 rounds. We need help at WR, OL, Safety, DL, LB..... and you want to waste a pick on a guy who might take 3 years to develop.
The drafting needs to be much better than it has been. Getting a rookie QB will not fix everything, I know.
But it is a lot harder to upgrade a roster when your QB has such a high cap number. Agree or disagree?
Do you think Manning is a big time QB?
And I keep telling you that we'd be wasting precious resources on a QB when we should be spending it upgrading the rest of the team.
And again, even if Eli isn't, WHO IS AN UPGRADE? Who should be the starter?
And hopefully I'll have an answer for you by spring time. If I don't....I won't just throw a name out there for the sake of change.
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Are you seriously trying to argue that Eli's supporting cast is better than Brady's?
Not even close.
My argument is that Brady makes others better. Thats why he is considered one of the best of all time. To be honest...trying to compare anything Brady does to Manning in an effort to say Manning is a big time QB is foolish.
Let me ask you this...do you think Manning is a big time QB?
Fair question, no I don't. Good QB but not great. 2nd Tier below his brother, Brady, and Rodgers. But does that mean I am ready to move on, hell no. Especially not for a rookie.
The drafting needs to be much better than it has been. Getting a rookie QB will not fix everything, I know.
But it is a lot harder to upgrade a roster when your QB has such a high cap number. Agree or disagree?
Do you think Manning is a big time QB?
Sy, of course having a QB with less of a cap hit would make it easier to upgrade the other positions.....but then we won't have a QB to get them the ball.
This year was a failure, due to poor play and injuries.
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Where do I say keep this same old team?
The drafting needs to be much better than it has been. Getting a rookie QB will not fix everything, I know.
But it is a lot harder to upgrade a roster when your QB has such a high cap number. Agree or disagree?
Do you think Manning is a big time QB?
Sy, of course having a QB with less of a cap hit would make it easier to upgrade the other positions.....but then we won't have a QB to get them the ball.
In my opinion it is too premature to say that. We don't know who will be available months from now.
And hopefully I'll have an answer for you by spring time. If I don't....I won't just throw a name out there for the sake of change.
Who gives us a better chance of winning a Super Bowl: Eli or Mariota? Eli or Winston? Eli or anyone else available?
If you want to upgrade, you actually need to have an upgrade in mind...or, at the very least, that player has to be so bad that anyone would be an upgrade. See: Jerry, John.
Sy, I just don't think you are going to see that any time soon. The team has far too many holes and Eli still has good years left. If Eli was 35-36, I could see it.
But again you've missed my point which was if there ends up being a grade high enough at QB, I think they should go after it.
Dismissing both of our opinions about Mariota....say the NYG has a top 3 overall grade on him, and he ends up being available when NYG is on the clock. It's hard to pass on that considering the economic and long term future. Manning and his salary may not be better than a top 3 overall prospect that is a lot cheaper...opening up money to spend on OL, LB, WR, TE...etc. Agree or disagree?
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In comment 11981911 Sy'56 said:
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Where do I say keep this same old team?
The drafting needs to be much better than it has been. Getting a rookie QB will not fix everything, I know.
But it is a lot harder to upgrade a roster when your QB has such a high cap number. Agree or disagree?
Do you think Manning is a big time QB?
Sy, of course having a QB with less of a cap hit would make it easier to upgrade the other positions.....but then we won't have a QB to get them the ball.
In my opinion it is too premature to say that. We don't know who will be available months from now.
I Asked earlier to no reply. Name a player that was better without Eli? If Eli didn't make people better there should be 4-5 guys that have left him that are better when they left. Visanthe Shiancoe is the only one I know that was statistically better. Anyone else?
But again you've missed my point which was if there ends up being a grade high enough at QB, I think they should go after it.
Dismissing both of our opinions about Mariota....say the NYG has a top 3 overall grade on him, and he ends up being available when NYG is on the clock. It's hard to pass on that considering the economic and long term future. Manning and his salary may not be better than a top 3 overall prospect that is a lot cheaper...opening up money to spend on OL, LB, WR, TE...etc. Agree or disagree?
If we have a top 3 pick, and we dont take Armani Cooper, Reese should be fired at the spot.
You nede dynamic playmakers in the NFL. WE HAVE 1!!!!!!!!!
What do you think NYG should do with Manning's contract? He is a FA after next season. He will be 35 after next season.
But again you've missed my point which was if there ends up being a grade high enough at QB, I think they should go after it.
Dismissing both of our opinions about Mariota....say the NYG has a top 3 overall grade on him, and he ends up being available when NYG is on the clock. It's hard to pass on that considering the economic and long term future. Manning and his salary may not be better than a top 3 overall prospect that is a lot cheaper...opening up money to spend on OL, LB, WR, TE...etc. Agree or disagree?
If they think Mariota compares to Luck, then I agree. If not and I don't think anyone is comparing him to Andrew Luck, then no, they shouldn't draft him.
You can't expect Coughlin to break in a new QB at his age, unless we're talking about a three year extension. Now, if we get a new coach, I think there will be a re-evaluation, but as others have said, we're just awful at too many areas. Even getting a Brady or Wilson wouldn't help this team.
The best example would be Eli's father, Archie. I think he was the most talented QB ever to play, from what I saw of him...he was the whole package, great arm, smart, could run like the wind. Put him on a team that stunk (the Saints at that time), and he was dogmeat.
Oh, and how much better did we get when we traded Tarkington? He stunk in NY...not so much on a team with talent like the Vikings of that time. What we're likely to face after Eli is a whole lot of Dave Browns and Kent Grahams before we get a real franchise QB again.
After Simms was cut, I wasn't sure we'd ever be that good at the position again...and every high rated QB prospect is a roll of the dice (remember Art Schliester and JaMarcus Russell??)
I understand Sy's point. Eli right now is not worth $20 mill in any way shape or form. Not even $12 mill. I would not extend him.
I also would not offer JPP anything more than $5 mill per. Not sure he had a atckle today.
It'd be a mistake. Cooper is a great prospect, but he is not a top 3 prospect. I actually think DGB is better and more talented than him, but he obviously has a lot of character issues.
What do you think NYG should do with Manning's contract? He is a FA after next season. He will be 35 after next season.
Extend him for another 2 or 3 years
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Eli over Mariota. Eli over Winston. Agree Agree Agree
But again you've missed my point which was if there ends up being a grade high enough at QB, I think they should go after it.
Dismissing both of our opinions about Mariota....say the NYG has a top 3 overall grade on him, and he ends up being available when NYG is on the clock. It's hard to pass on that considering the economic and long term future. Manning and his salary may not be better than a top 3 overall prospect that is a lot cheaper...opening up money to spend on OL, LB, WR, TE...etc. Agree or disagree?
If they think Mariota compares to Luck, then I agree. If not and I don't think anyone is comparing him to Andrew Luck, then no, they shouldn't draft him.
I know you aren't saying this....but it almost sounds like you are under the thought process that Eli should be the man until the best QB prospect ever is available when NYG is on the clock.
Same question to you...what do you do with Manning after 2015? Or do you just overlook that part of the equation and hope for the best? If you ask me...I say get the new QB in here in 2015 offseason so he at least can get reps with this team ASAP, even if he's the guy in 2016.
Guess what people, he isnt as good as them. Neither are the other 26 QBs in the league. Theres a reason why they can do things the others cant.
Guess what people, he isnt as good as them. Neither are the other 26 QBs in the league. Theres a reason why they can do things the others cant.
Exactly!
Evans is having a Rookie of the Year caliber season. Far exceeded my expectations 11 weeks in to his career. I believe I had him graded as a 2nd rounder...but he is playing like a top 10 overall guy.
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understood and I respect your views.
What do you think NYG should do with Manning's contract? He is a FA after next season. He will be 35 after next season.
Extend him for another 2 or 3 years
At what price? Is it possible that price tag will make it harder to upgrade the OL, LB, WR, TE spots?
half this site said "pass, can't separate" or "remote thrower" or other equally idiotic comments - someone probably has them saved.
It makes me think these people with all these great opinions about what the Giants should or will do are more clueless than I thought.
Guess what people, he isnt as good as them. Neither are the other 26 QBs in the league. Theres a reason why they can do things the others cant.
But the money....
I also believe this
half this site said "pass, can't separate" or "remote thrower" or other equally idiotic comments - someone probably has them saved.
It makes me think these people with all these great opinions about what the Giants should or will do are more clueless than I thought.
I know professional scouts that said those things about him as well. There were a lot of guys that thought his production was scheme/situation-based in college. I wasn't wild about him but he had legit ball skills and movement ability to go with that size.
I don't think we are talking about an elite WR here...but maybe a guy like Plaxico or VIncent Jackson down the road.
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and tell us what he cant do, hes compared to 3 people. Peyton, Brady, and Rodgers.
Guess what people, he isnt as good as them. Neither are the other 26 QBs in the league. Theres a reason why they can do things the others cant.
But the money....
But the drafting....
If you get rid of Eli before Reese, an investigation should be done.
Guys like Steve Smith, Boss, Manningham, Ballard, Nicks (so far)....have done nothing elsewhere. But that was a few years ago...and I simply think Manning is no longer that guy we saw a few years back. Thats all.
What will cripple this team is being poor evaluators of said talent and giving the money to the wrong talent.
Just as it's been for the past few years.
Guys like Steve Smith, Boss, Manningham, Ballard, Nicks (so far)....have done nothing elsewhere. But that was a few years ago...and I simply think Manning is no longer that guy we saw a few years back. Thats all.
I believe if they get him a decent line we get back the good Eli. He hates pressure just like every other QB. Look at Brady and Peyton when people are in there face all the time: see SB XLII and SB XLIV.
The team needs talent, which is why I am against moving on from Manning. Whoever you bring in next year doesnt make you a contender anyways.
Football is a fickle game. One year you are shit, the next year you win the division (2012 Skins and 2013 Eagles). A few players make a world of difference. I mean look at the 2nd/3rd rounders of previous years and how bad they are.
robinson, Hosley, Sintim, Austin, Randle, Beckum, Barden, etc.
They guys arent even role players. These are the picks that you dont have to hit home runs with, but you have to get productive players. We dont have them. So even if bringing in a new QB, what will that do?
I mean we had a huge need at LB, Chris Borland is sitting there. We take a guy who cant play over Kuhn. I mean seriously, where the hell are we going if Reese continues to fuck this up?
The NFL is back and forth in more ways than one across the league, I also agree there. If I had to choose ONE big change, it would be with the guys that control the personnel (both FA and draft). But even then...the long term (and by long term I mean 2+ years) outlook isn't good. With that in mind I look at the age and cost of Manning...it's tough to say he should be around more than another season.
You will know more about OT/OG when the 2nd round comes about. I would be in favor of moving Pugh inside and draft a stud OT as well.
Now Eli wants absurd money on an extension, then you pass and move on. But what if he takes a friendly deal that gives us flexibility? Do you wanna pass on that?
What do you think NYG should do with Manning's contract? He is a FA after next season. He will be 35 after next season.
Honestly, I would extend him until he is 37-38. Pay him his big money up front, that way the Giants can move on with minimal cap impact when Eli is beyond 38. If the next Andrew Luck was out there I could see an argument, but right now it seems like the only prudent thing to do, especially given all the problems with the roster.
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get a new QB, keep the same shitty players around him and have the feel of the 1990s Bengals/Browns were they are picking top 5 every year.
Todays offensive line was
Brown - god awful
Jerry - God awful
Walton - god awful
Richburg - playing out of position
Beatty - average to ok.
His WRs were:
Randle - awful
Parker - building tiki huts last year
OBJ - promising rookie
His TEs are
Donnell - doing good this year
Fells - out of football last year
Robinson - waste of a roster spot.
So you OBJ/Richburg/Donnell and possibly Beatty who wouldnt make the team of some of the top teams in the league. They wouldnt be bench players - they would flat out be cut if they played on Denver, NE, GB, amongst other teams.
I agree, I think it is hard to argue that this is a good team.
Well when you spell it out like that, it looks even worse than I thought. What a talent deficient offense.
You will know more about OT/OG when the 2nd round comes about. I would be in favor of moving Pugh inside and draft a stud OT as well.
Now Eli wants absurd money on an extension, then you pass and move on. But what if he takes a friendly deal that gives us flexibility? Do you wanna pass on that?
As of right now I say no to Mariota and Winston but I still have a lot of tape to watch there...so don't hold me to it yet.
I am all for drafting another position with their probable top 10 selection spot. Again it is all about the grades...but that doesn't mean I just shove the QB situation under the rug.
I would be all for Cooper in round 1, OL in round 2. And some money being spent on OL in the FA market. But the second a QB value becomes available, I would go for it. That was not my opinion last year. Thats all I am saying but as usual a bunch of emotional and attached fans took it otherwise.
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understood and I respect your views.
What do you think NYG should do with Manning's contract? He is a FA after next season. He will be 35 after next season.
Honestly, I would extend him until he is 37-38. Pay him his big money up front, that way the Giants can move on with minimal cap impact when Eli is beyond 38. If the next Andrew Luck was out there I could see an argument, but right now it seems like the only prudent thing to do, especially given all the problems with the roster.
Understood. I will respectfully disagree that he should be given a 4-5 year extension at this point.
Right now he has the weight of the world on his shoulders and probably feels it's up to him to force a win for the Gmen.
Outside of today's weekly debacle, Eli has had a good year.
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In comment 11981995 Sy'56 said:
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understood and I respect your views.
What do you think NYG should do with Manning's contract? He is a FA after next season. He will be 35 after next season.
Honestly, I would extend him until he is 37-38. Pay him his big money up front, that way the Giants can move on with minimal cap impact when Eli is beyond 38. If the next Andrew Luck was out there I could see an argument, but right now it seems like the only prudent thing to do, especially given all the problems with the roster.
Understood. I will respectfully disagree that he should be given a 4-5 year extension at this point.
If I felt we could realistically upgrade (get a Brady, Rodgers, Peyton or Luck) then I would agree with you, but those guys are once in a decade type talents and none are available. We have to deal with what is, not what we wish it to be. Fact remains, Eli is a step below the Elite QBs in the league, but still a cut above the rest.
Right now he has the weight of the world on his shoulders and probably feels it's up to him to force a win for the Gmen.
Outside of today's weekly debacle, Eli has had a good year.
Agreed, lost in all this is the fact that up until today Eli was having the season we all wanted to see from him. This is all a bunch of reactionary short-sightedness.
I'd have no problem with Mara / Reese telling Eli to " prove it" in 2015 before getting a big contract.
When the OL has been stabilized, then look at other positions.
I'd have no problem with Mara / Reese telling Eli to " prove it" in 2015 before getting a big contract.
Would agree, fix the OL. But I think Reese and Co. will give Eli a new deal, if for no other reason than to lower his impact on the cap in 2015 so they can make more moves in the off-season.
Nobody thought those guys were elite when they came out. Just like we can't say these QBs in the upcoming class aren't elite. My point stands...a bigger priority needs to be put on upgrading the QB position. For the tenth time today...that does not mean Manning is cut this offseason. It does not mean a 1st round QB is selected. But IF the grade is there.....pull the trigger.
The priorities are: WR (Randle is mediocre at best and VC is a ?. We need some size at WR), RT (move Pugh inside-we need someone for RT that can move the pile), RB (Need a faster type back to complement Williams), LB (no comments necessary). Those are the priorities. However, the number one priority should be getting rid of that waste of space, Marc Ross. He is the worst draft talent evaluator in the NFL.
Nobody thought those guys were elite when they came out. Just like we can't say these QBs in the upcoming class aren't elite. My point stands...a bigger priority needs to be put on upgrading the QB position. For the tenth time today...that does not mean Manning is cut this offseason. It does not mean a 1st round QB is selected. But IF the grade is there.....pull the trigger.
Not sure how those examples matter. Admittedly I am not sold on Mariotta or Winston, but if a top QB was falling and the Giants had a luxury pick then sure, but they don't. Green Bay drafted Rodgers as the heir apparent to Favre when the team did not have a lot of holes. The Pats drafted Brady as on after though. If you are just hoping the Giants get lucky in the draft, then sure, so do I. But the idea that we should prepare to move on from Eli based on the Rodgers or Brady scenario is like trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Probably not going to happen and you can't plan for it.
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Brady was a 6th round pick. Rodgers was closer to a 2nd round pick than he was the top 3 overall.
Nobody thought those guys were elite when they came out. Just like we can't say these QBs in the upcoming class aren't elite. My point stands...a bigger priority needs to be put on upgrading the QB position. For the tenth time today...that does not mean Manning is cut this offseason. It does not mean a 1st round QB is selected. But IF the grade is there.....pull the trigger.
Not sure how those examples matter. Admittedly I am not sold on Mariotta or Winston, but if a top QB was falling and the Giants had a luxury pick then sure, but they don't. Green Bay drafted Rodgers as the heir apparent to Favre when the team did not have a lot of holes. The Pats drafted Brady as on after though. If you are just hoping the Giants get lucky in the draft, then sure, so do I. But the idea that we should prepare to move on from Eli based on the Rodgers or Brady scenario is like trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Probably not going to happen and you can't plan for it.
Not at all. But the point is if the value is there...it is foolish to pass on. QB makes the biggest difference on a team and there ir no debating that. A QB's salary can also prevent the team from upgrading the rest of the roster...there is no debating that either. With those facts in mind...spending a pick on a guy that is valued there can't be overlooked in this situation.
Look at Wilson and Kaepernick. Kaepernick got a huge payday and Wilson is next, and neither of those guys are nearly as good as Eli Manning as passers.
Their teams have to build around their contracts to.
Paying the QB tax is just the facts of life in today's NFL, period.
Look at what the Bears paid Jay Cutler.
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In comment 11982243 Sy'56 said:
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Brady was a 6th round pick. Rodgers was closer to a 2nd round pick than he was the top 3 overall.
Nobody thought those guys were elite when they came out. Just like we can't say these QBs in the upcoming class aren't elite. My point stands...a bigger priority needs to be put on upgrading the QB position. For the tenth time today...that does not mean Manning is cut this offseason. It does not mean a 1st round QB is selected. But IF the grade is there.....pull the trigger.
Not sure how those examples matter. Admittedly I am not sold on Mariotta or Winston, but if a top QB was falling and the Giants had a luxury pick then sure, but they don't. Green Bay drafted Rodgers as the heir apparent to Favre when the team did not have a lot of holes. The Pats drafted Brady as on after though. If you are just hoping the Giants get lucky in the draft, then sure, so do I. But the idea that we should prepare to move on from Eli based on the Rodgers or Brady scenario is like trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Probably not going to happen and you can't plan for it.
Not at all. But the point is if the value is there...it is foolish to pass on. QB makes the biggest difference on a team and there ir no debating that. A QB's salary can also prevent the team from upgrading the rest of the roster...there is no debating that either. With those facts in mind...spending a pick on a guy that is valued there can't be overlooked in this situation.
Well the Giants did that with Nasib. If a QB with a first round grade slips I think the Giants would be willing to take him, but I highly doubt they will be considering it in the 1st round this year. Far too many problems in the trenches to spend a 1st round pick on a QB who won't play.
This team's problems are not at the QB position. Just about everywhere else...but not the QB.
He has 4 WR's that can stretch a defense, a good back, and a decent offensive line.
Other than Beckham, name a Giants' offensive player that gets playing time on the Packers.
cruz and maybe donnell
Eli is not the problem.
This team could really become solid NEXT YEAR on offense if we just go out and get the best UFA RT available; hope that Pugh and Richburg develop at OG and OC; and, Schwartz rounds out at the other OG. Beatty is serviceable.
Draft an OT round #1 and let him learn / play a bit his rookie year. Then we need to load up on defense cause we have none.
What team is going to offer a big deal his way? Just not going to happen. Offer him what his ability and performance commands..... And that is a mediocre deal that allows us to spend and retain other positional talent
Yup
Second, even if you don't love Eli, the Giants have far too many legitimate holes on their roster to spend any time or effort even scouting QBs this year. Third, there still is the possibility they are willing and intending to go with Nassib in a couple of years.
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Eli over Mariota. Eli over Winston. Agree Agree Agree
But again you've missed my point which was if there ends up being a grade high enough at QB, I think they should go after it.
Dismissing both of our opinions about Mariota....say the NYG has a top 3 overall grade on him, and he ends up being available when NYG is on the clock. It's hard to pass on that considering the economic and long term future. Manning and his salary may not be better than a top 3 overall prospect that is a lot cheaper...opening up money to spend on OL, LB, WR, TE...etc. Agree or disagree?
If we have a top 3 pick, and we dont take Armani Cooper, Reese should be fired at the spot.
You nede dynamic playmakers in the NFL. WE HAVE 1!!!!!!!!!
Yeah because Atlanta who took Julio Jones has won so many Superbowls right? They had White Jones and Gonzales. Hard to get better than those 3.
Cooper is a wasted pick not because he won't be great but because the Giants OL sucks balls. As well as the LBs and the DL right now looks little better.
Atlanta which also ignored both its OL and DL is going to suck for a while. Justine the Giants if hey don't fix the OL. We took OBJ. CRUZ will be back. Too many holes and another WR?
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Check out the Packers.
He has 4 WR's that can stretch a defense, a good back, and a decent offensive line.
Other than Beckham, name a Giants' offensive player that gets playing time on the Packers.
cruz and maybe donnell
Cruz most certainly could not start over Cobb. Are you insane?
What team is going to offer a big deal his way? Just not going to happen. Offer him what his ability and performance commands..... And that is a mediocre deal that allows us to spend and retain other positional talent
I am not certain that there is not another NFL team that would offer Eli big bucks.
In fact, I think there would be many.
They have bigger problems than QB almost everywhere on the field. And no QB is going to win with this shit team.
That being said, here are some realities...
1. There is no QB just sitting out there, not starting for another team that is better than Eli right now.
2. Eli making $20 million is far too much considering the rest of the holes on this team.
3. We NEED for Eli to take a cut down to $10mm so that we can sign at least 2 quality O linemen. If we don't do this, we will watch a repeat of this season next year.
4. I think the only way it makes sense for any of this crazy talk about moving Eli off of this team is this..... If some other team comes knocking asking for a trade and we are able to get a younger guy like Tannehil who probably makes a lot less and can make plays in this league. THEN, MAYBE... However, I dont see a team like the Dolphins or any other team for that matter looking to trade for Eli. Especially not with the $20 million price tag.
5. I think our pass plays are taking too long to develop. Eli is getting nailed and our WRs are not even making their breaks yet. There is typically not much open over the middle. Very few crossing patterns at the 12-15 yard mark. We also STILL have not figured out how to successfully run the screen. This combined with a cement footed Eli means the pass rush is coming after him with their ears pinned back.
Again... Eli is not going to be a problem for us if we give him a running game and an O-line that can block long enough for him to make a smart decision with the ball.
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Cruz most certainly could not start over Cobb. Are you insane?
Agreed. In fact, about a month ago I argued that right now (before Cruz got injured) Golden Tate is better than Cruz. We tend to think of Victor as the same amazing player that we saw two years ago. He isn't unfortunately. However, he is still a very productive WR for us. Just not a top performer in the league anymore
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In comment 11982353 CGiants07 said:
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Cruz most certainly could not start over Cobb. Are you insane?
Agreed. In fact, about a month ago I argued that right now (before Cruz got injured) Golden Tate is better than Cruz. We tend to think of Victor as the same amazing player that we saw two years ago. He isn't unfortunately. However, he is still a very productive WR for us. Just not a top performer in the league anymore
I hate to agree...but it is probably true.
the slot receiver (like Cobb or Cruz) or any receiver really is better when there is a receiver like Jordy Nelson lining up opposite them.
Like Cruz had with a healthy Nicks.
I like the prospects this offense has with one more weapon and a rebuilt OL.
the slot receiver (like Cobb or Cruz) or any receiver really is better when there is a receiver like Jordy Nelson lining up opposite them.
Like Cruz had with a healthy Nicks.
I like the prospects this offense has with one more weapon and a rebuilt OL.
As do I. Despite all the Eli negativity going around today. I am excited to see what a 2015 NYG Offense with a running game and one more passing game playmaker can do!
Agree 100%. The third option is the key because then you get mismatches. Defenses can take one guy away, maybe two, but most can't take away 3 and you're left with a mismatch IMO.
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and pair him with OBJ, Donnell at TE, and then Cruz on the slot - thats scary options. Cruz can be taken out of the game. But if you bring in stud WRs.... he becomes much, much more dangerous and productive. RR aint making Cruz better.
Agree 100%. The third option is the key because then you get mismatches. Defenses can take one guy away, maybe two, but most can't take away 3 and you're left with a mismatch IMO.
Exactly. Teams are going to shadow both OBJ and even Donnell. Leaving Parker and Randle left 1 on 1 all game. Randle made a few nice plays, but when push came to shove - he couldnt make a play that helped us win. This is a weekly thing. The fade in the end zone still blows my mind. Never even went up to grab. Let it come to him.
Doesn't matter if he's thrown the ball or night. With the rules in the NFL being what they are, the only way to stop most offenses is to knock the QB down/out. and that's what teams will do.
See Falcons, Atlanta.
Unfortunately, all of this talk is just fantasy until the O-line can be solidified.
Doesn't matter if he's thrown the ball or night. With the rules in the NFL being what they are, the only way to stop most offenses is to knock the QB down/out. and that's what teams will do.
See Falcons, Atlanta.
I did include a rebuilt OL and that implied improved, obviously it starts there, but GB never had a ridiculously good OL, but their offense was built to mitigate it.
Give Eli a clean pocket and he can make plays. It's that simple.
How does Eli play the rest of 2014?
Is there a blue chip QB or two that the Giants will have access to?
Would the Giants trade Eli, if so what would be the return?
Would Eli take a pay cut?
Will Reese's job be in jeopardy?
Will be interesting watching it play out. If Eli regresses the rest of the season, that will drive a lot of chatter I'm sure. If he plays well, I think this will all be void.
They started JD Walton, John Jerry, and Charles Brown (along with a slightly overmatched rookie and a disappointing tackle) along the o-line. By the way, that's an IMPROVEMENT over last season's dumpster fire OL.
Saying they need to move on from Eli is basically stating that with an actual OL and quality weapons, he would still be a below average player. There's no way on Earth I'm ready to say that.
I expected to read something more intelligent from Sy of all people.
No one could be successful with last year's OL and this year's, while better, still leaves a lot to be desired.
Eli is still a very good QB just getting into the swing of things with a new offensive system and a C grade OL. In this league, a franchise QB is the difference maker. Put Eli on the Jets and see what happens.
If you think Eli is a problem then the Giants should be working on a trade right now. Look at teams like the Jets or even now the Eagles before you underestimate the importance of a franchise QB.
You can make a rational argument pointing to all the holes on this team, his salary, and what you might receive in a trade. But, I think that would be a huge mistake.
It all starts up front - OL, pass rush and run stopping DTs - you can fix a lot of that in FA and the draft.
Easy to move on from Eli after 2015 if the new guys think progress can be made faster pursuing another direction.
We try to make a deal with a team like the Texans who are only a top-notch experienced QB short of contention. Because of Eli's age we probably can't hope for anything better than a third-round pick. We should be able to get a nice player and immense cap relief.
If we can manage to lose two of three to a combination of Tenn, Jax and Wash, we have a good chance at a top-five pick. That MUST BE a big stud left tackle. Beatty goes to the right side, the current RT midget goes to the weight room and moves to guard. The current LG goes to center, where he belongs and we hope Schwartz is going to fully recover from the toe injury and return to being a pile-driving guard. That's a start.
I don't care how many of you I annoy with this, but IMHO JPP flourished large measure because Tuck and Osi were immortal pass rushers. On his own he's not showing me much of the most important ingredient in a DE's job resume. I don't think he's worth a long-term cap-killing contract.
I hope TC retires before he turns himself into a coach with a .500 career record. It's not his fault. That lies with Reese and Ross, who gave a us projects like the midget tight end Beckum and Ramses Barden. If Mara doesn't act after all his talk of accountability then we might be looking at a lot more horrible football. Reese and Ross should be fired.
A new GM will want his own HC, and TC might be 71-72 before we're ready to return to top-notch contention. The new HC probably will want his own coordinators, so wavwe goodbye to Perry Fool and Wackadoo. I love TC and Eli, but nothing lasts forever and we're failing miserably.
So, I agree with those who say it's time to blow it up.
You can no longer just write Manning in as the QB. There are some tough questions you have to ask. Even if you can fix all or most of the other problem spots on the roster in 2-3 years, how good will Manning be then and for how long? Keeping Manning is a pretty big roll of the dice at this point, too.
At this time, there are no easy answers for NYG.