Why is everybody freaking out? Most people here picked this as a loss. And why? Because this isn't a good team. They lack talent to compete. The fact that they showed up and fought until the end is a testament to Coughlin. So we knew that last week, expected it, predicted it... Now you're shocked by the result? Did anybody really think this was all going to magically turn around this week? Or are we just fueling previous agendas? Furthermore, how much do you want to bet that had we actually pulled off the win yesterday, people would be bitching about the Giants ruining draft position?
Just accept that the season is over (I did, weeks ago), and start thinking about things to improve upon next season. Which leads me to...
The likelyhood of Eli and Coughlin returning is HIGH if we're being realistic, and looking at this from the Giants standpoint. If you were a betting man, the smart money is on both of them returning. So instead of wasting all your time and energy debating whether they should be fired/cut, why not spend time on realistic fixes since it's likely that they will both be back next season?
And I see almost no situation where if the last 6 games are anything like the first 10 where Coughlin comes back.
whether it's his decision or it's made for him he will not be back IMO.
Even worse this week, given how close we were at the end to taking the lead.
I do disagree with you on how likely it is everyone returns - I really think this might be the end for some of these guys, two consecutive seasons like this doesn't seem to bode well for anyone.
As an aside - you guys think you're angry? The 49ers were only marginally better than us on Sunday, and we've got more people out due to injury. That was a team that was supposed to be stocked and set for years, and now they're flailing, and likely losing their HC at the end of the season. At least we got two titles out of the run.
What shocks me, and I seem to be the only one who has mentioned it, is that on 3rd down, in the final minutes, with the outcome still to be decided, the $20,000,00.00 man throws the ball up for grabs as he's being sacked.
WTF? Desperation at its finest. Total shitshow.
4 weeks a row of the worst defense in the league? OK, let's ramp up the defense a little bit to keep the Giants in the game and then the offense can't run the ball and our QB forces the ball so much he ends up with 5 picks and we lose that way.
If it's not one thing, it's another.
Also, the JPP 1 tackle, Preston Parker 2 tackles thing speaks volumes to fans.
Eli is probably the most desperate person on the team. I think that is a compliment to him.
And you are correct about what a great effort the team made against SF. It sucks we couldn't get the win but we stayed in the game all day in spite of the 5 interceptions which I blame completely on Reece's failure to insure the O-line has the talent it needs to protect Eli.
I also am certain Eli and TC will be back next year just as certain as I am that removing them would be a major mistake.
Me too. Any Sunday of the week. At least they made it a game.
Two losing seasons in a row. No problem.
Missing the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years. Give the man a 4 year extension.
Everybody needs to play. We're still building towards something here.
The time spent during these last six games will carry over to next year. It's a much longer plan than this season.
2) the non-QB sneak play and his answer to that. Brady runs that play for crying out loud.... Eli is a hell of a lot tougher than Brady. That should have been a quick snap sneak.
The defense played well enough to win. under that magic number 17 anyways... and the only really bad play was the crabtree TD - which came down to Demps being totally out of position.
The special teams looked ok as well.
As for the op, most people root for a win, even when expecting a loss. The game was a heartbreaker, even though our heads told us we were likely to lose, and come draft time, we'll be glad we lost.
They gift-wrapped a win to a team that was pretty much offensively inept.
yesterday not only was the loss gut wrenching in nature... but eli was horrific as well... now leaving Odell as the only thing to look towards with a smile.
if the giants had lost by 30 and Eli played ok... this board would be fine and just screaming about firing the DC.
! By George - I mean Freud - um I mean JonC
Lol - btw - I got reasons for you to like a Benz
A lot of the players we got rid of had started on the downside of their very good careers, but most of the replacement players we have now don't have any talent to begin with.
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Life ain't easy for everyone and football is the great escape, the good from your favorite football team winning is like a drug for many, imv. A loss generates frustrations that tends to boil over easily especially if life is also frustrating. Also, fans tend to not have realistic expectations, they overrate their own, etc. Freud out.
! By George - I mean Freud - um I mean JonC
Lol - btw - I got reasons for you to like a Benz
haha, I'm a BMW fan.
Instead of the week to week analysis.....we are at the point now, where, hey we lost, but we put an effort into that loss....It's like Russian Roulette, with this team....one week you spin the cylinder, and the offense sucks...next week, it's the defense, next week ST's......let's face it, Seattle and SF are not the teams they were last year, and yet they still won....
Next week we face another team with a winning record/starting qb.....the only thing we have going for us, is the law of averages......
The media continues to play those four plays at the four yard line......Hate to say this but those fade passes are Gilbride's plays....how about a pump by Eli on a fade, and the receiver stops and comes back towards Eli? All those fades were single coverage....some were bad passes...how in the world does OBj have a shot at a pass with no height and he can't jump for it? The corner was going backwards from the get go on the one to Randle because he never sold it to the inside....The fourth down pass, Eli is throwing to two te's bunched next to each other, with defenders all around them?
All the receivers were split out.....not one bunch formation to create confusion in coverage.....terrible play calling....
At least he could have tried Washington on the play. But Coughlin has seemed determined to bury him as far as he can. Probably didn't want him on the roster to begin with.
It's one thing to be a subpar team in terms of talent.. which we are. But it's another one to help a more talented team beat you by literally throwing the damn game away.
Losing like that is far more frustrating than just getting outmuscled and beaten off the field.
We should have won that game.
Thankfully it's easier to swallow knowing we weren't going anywhere this year anyway.
What shocks me, and I seem to be the only one who has mentioned it, is that on 3rd down, in the final minutes, with the outcome still to be decided, the $20,000,00.00 man throws the ball up for grabs as he's being sacked.
WTF? Desperation at its finest. Total shitshow.
For the past 30 + gamees the Giants have been mediocre to poor. There do not seem to be any answers at the moment. Were he younger I could see the Giants committing to him for another 5 years, but I don't think that is likely to happen.
For the past 30 + gamees the Giants have been mediocre to poor. There do not seem to be any answers at the moment. Were he younger I could see the Giants committing to him for another 5 years, but I don't think that is likely to happen.
Agree with you, Chris, and I was right there rooting and hoping they pulled it out like everybody else.
But what difference did it make, really? The season is shot. We know the story of the 2014 New York Giants already.
Yeah, it was a kick in the teeth, but ultimately, it will have little affect on anything, really, one way or the other.
Instead of the week to week analysis.....we are at the point now, where, hey we lost, but we put an effort into that loss....It's like Russian Roulette, with this team....one week you spin the cylinder, and the offense sucks...next week, it's the defense, next week ST's......let's face it, Seattle and SF are not the teams they were last year, and yet they still won....
Next week we face another team with a winning record/starting qb.....the only thing we have going for us, is the law of averages......
The media continues to play those four plays at the four yard line......Hate to say this but those fade passes are Gilbride's plays....how about a pump by Eli on a fade, and the receiver stops and comes back towards Eli? All those fades were single coverage....some were bad passes...how in the world does OBj have a shot at a pass with no height and he can't jump for it? The corner was going backwards from the get go on the one to Randle because he never sold it to the inside....The fourth down pass, Eli is throwing to two te's bunched next to each other, with defenders all around them?
All the receivers were split out.....not one bunch formation to create confusion in coverage.....terrible play calling....
Agree with this post. Especially the first part.
I don't have an agenda other than seeing the Giants be successful - I have my views on what is hindering the lack of success and it's a complex mix of things.
And Britt, if you think Coughlin will be back next year, I just ask that you don't bet serious mortgage/rent type money on that.
Besides, do people really think Eli gets the call and says in the huddle, "jump ball to Donnell"? If they go to the LOS and have a matchup they like they're going to throw the fade every time...and they should! What are they supposed to do? Run the ball when their offensive line is being completely whipped? Given the performance of their OL it's a wonder they were able to get single coverage in the red zone...the 49ers probably could have had penetration rushing two guys.
The fades were good plays in the situation. The players (Eli on 1st down, Randle on 2nd, and Donnell on third) just didn't execute. If you want to bitch about something ask why Randle (who never high points the ball and has developed the bad habit of trying to catch that type of pass with one hand) was in over Washington (who has excelled every time he has been in that situation).
The players aren't good enough. That the game was even close yesterday had to do with the 49ers...personally I'd be alarmed by Kaepernick's performance if I were a 49er fan. But anyone watching that game yesterday could see San Francisco should have won by three touchdowns. That they didn't is on them, and perhaps due in part to the fact they were playing at 10AM PST.
The coaches put guys in position to make plays yesterday. They weren't made when they were needed.
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But when you have first and goal from the 4 and a chance to take a lead late in the fourth quarter, and you get nothing? That tends to piss off even those who expected a loss, like I did.
this + all of the costly Giants mistakes again were self-inflicted/lack of discipline/stupid type not the fact that the other team had stronger, faster more skilled talent on the field. And it was against the 49ers a team that we all agree that we hate.
I don't have an agenda other than seeing the Giants be successful - I have my views on what is hindering the lack of success and it's a complex mix of things.
And Britt, if you think Coughlin will be back next year, I just ask that you don't bet serious mortgage/rent type money on that.
Between the two of them, if one is more likely to go than the other it's Coughlin.
However, knowing how the Giants do business, I still think both will be back.
I'm all for giving that play to Donnell or Washington.
I'm not all for running it three consecutive times to anyone.
Would still like to beat the Eagles in week 17 though
Doesn't work that way. Just ask Parcells, Landry, Shanahan, Cowher, etc, etc. It ALL comes to an end at some point.
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No. Not even shocked by the fact that they could have won and shit the bed.
What shocks me, and I seem to be the only one who has mentioned it, is that on 3rd down, in the final minutes, with the outcome still to be decided, the $20,000,00.00 man throws the ball up for grabs as he's being sacked.
WTF? Desperation at its finest. Total shitshow.
that was desperation. With no time outs, what else was he going to do? If he took the sack the game was over. Throwing an interception there would have made no difference. If it falls incomplete he gets one more play and a chance. Shows Eli had a good sense of the situation they were in.
It was the fact that he tossed the damn thing straight up in the air. Maybe he was unable to throw it any other way. I couldn't tell because he was being suffocated due to the totally ineffective O-line.
What is painfully obvious is the there is no depth on the offensive line and Eli can't make it happen. Additionally, I did not chime in on Sy'56's thread on Eli...but I think his premise that Eli is a very poor value considering his salary is true. He is not a $20 million QB....In all honesty....outside of a few seasons...he never has been.
How much do you think QBs make? Tell us how much you think he should make.
What is painfully obvious is the there is no depth on the offensive line and Eli can't make it happen. Additionally, I did not chime in on Sy'56's thread on Eli...but I think his premise that Eli is a very poor value considering his salary is true. He is not a $20 million QB....In all honesty....outside of a few seasons...he never has been.
Mike, what you consider to be value is irrelevant. Just look at Jay Cutler's contract. That's the going rate for QB's these days.
You saw Kaepernick, yesterday. Same thing. What they are worth is irrelevant. That's the going rate.
Even a draft gem like Russell Wilson, should you hit on one, is going to cost you after three years. Russell Wilson will be entering the club next year. Is he worth it? Probably not, but that's what a QB in the NFL costs these days.
Here's a hypothetical. JPP is going to be due big money next year. Do you pay him?
Will we hear the same chirping on his contract taking up salary cap space that can be used to build the team around him that we do for Eli?
If you could only keep one, which one would you keep? Eli, or JPP?
A fade to Beckham is a very good call. On 2nd down they should have isolated Beckham instead of Randle.
Somebody mentioned Burress? He sucked on the fade in PIT and with NYG. The fade is not just about a tall WR.
Peyton Mannging $19,000,000
Drew Brees $18,750,000
Eli Manning $17,000,000
Tony Romo $17,000,000
Philip Rivers $15,750,000
Jay Cutler $15,500,000
Cam Newton $14,666,666
Sam Bradford $12,985,000
Colin Kaep $12,400,000
Alex Smith $11,900,000
Ben Roethlisberger $11,600,000
Matt Ryan $11,500,000
Matthew Stafford $9,500,000
Tom Brady $7,000,000
Matt Schaub $5,500,000
The reason his cap number is high right now is because he is in the final two years of his deal, and we've been pushing the money back to this point.
As far as value in concerned...I understand what the going rate for an established QB...just like any other position. However, Is Eli Manning providing enough return to justify spending 15-20 Million per year on him? And the actually number means little until it is taken into the context of $20 million out of your total salary cap limit of $133m. Is he worth 15% of the Giants salary cap? And is worth paying one guy 15% of your cap room when the team has needs throughout the roster?
The AAV of his contract is about $16.2M. Compare him to other QBs with that AAV, like Alex Smith at $17M and below Andy Dalton.
Any figure more than that has nothing to do with him or his value and is about how the Giants' handle their accounting and chose to distribute the cap over multiple seasons.
Peyton Mannging $19,000,000
Drew Brees $18,750,000
Eli Manning $17,000,000
Tony Romo $17,000,000
Philip Rivers $15,750,000
Jay Cutler $15,500,000
Cam Newton $14,666,666
Sam Bradford $12,985,000
Colin Kaep $12,400,000
Alex Smith $11,900,000
Ben Roethlisberger $11,600,000
Matt Ryan $11,500,000
Matthew Stafford $9,500,000
Tom Brady $7,000,000
Matt Schaub $5,500,000
Based on Eli's and the teams overall performance over the past several seasons...substantially less. I also think the number above are salaries...and not actual cap hits which ultimately is the more important number.
2015 QB cap hits from Sportrac - ( New Window )
A fade to Beckham is a very good call. On 2nd down they should have isolated Beckham instead of Randle.
Somebody mentioned Burress? He sucked on the fade in PIT and with NYG. The fade is not just about a tall WR.
Somehow I remember him catching a game winning Super Bowl TD on a fade.
And height does have a lot to do with it. What Beckham is good at with a long pass does not necessarily translate on a short pass with limited room to maneuver.
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Tell us what you think Eli should make.
Peyton Mannging $19,000,000
Drew Brees $18,750,000
Eli Manning $17,000,000
Tony Romo $17,000,000
Philip Rivers $15,750,000
Jay Cutler $15,500,000
Cam Newton $14,666,666
Sam Bradford $12,985,000
Colin Kaep $12,400,000
Alex Smith $11,900,000
Ben Roethlisberger $11,600,000
Matt Ryan $11,500,000
Matthew Stafford $9,500,000
Tom Brady $7,000,000
Matt Schaub $5,500,000
Based on Eli's and the teams overall performance over the past several seasons...substantially less. I also think the number above are salaries...and not actual cap hits which ultimately is the more important number. 2015 QB cap hits from Sportrac - ( New Window )
If you want to pay Eli less say, Alex Smith...Let me save you the trouble- He will say no. And you will now have to find a QB.
I will echo Britt's question: Who do replace him with? Someone who's a super awesome QB who will play cheap?
The AAV of his contract is about $16.2M. Compare him to other QBs with that AAV, like Alex Smith at $17M and below Andy Dalton.
Any figure more than that has nothing to do with him or his value and is about how the Giants' handle their accounting and chose to distribute the cap over multiple seasons.
Eli counts $20,400,000 against the cap this year. Next year if nothing changes it will be $19,750,000. That is a big number for a team that is not a contender. At least Alex Smith and Andy Dalton are contributing to decent teams.
Eli from over the cap - ( New Window )
The Giants have decisions to make regarding the future direction of this franchise. Eli may or may not be part of the solution. They will need to affix a value to Eli...just like they do with every other player on the team and act accordingly.
Eli is the best option.
Hell, Dalton is on his last legs in Cincy.
A fade to Beckham is a very good call. On 2nd down they should have isolated Beckham instead of Randle.
Odell Beckham is listed at 5'11, and everyone knows those are always exaggerated.
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He's not 5'10". He's taller with very long arms. A huge catching radius and he's an explosive leaper. He's also proven to be able to go up and over NFL CBs. The guy knows how to high point the ball.
A fade to Beckham is a very good call. On 2nd down they should have isolated Beckham instead of Randle.
Odell Beckham is listed at 5'11, and everyone knows those are always exaggerated.
His height at the combine was a smidge over 5'11.
Eli is the best option.
My heart wants you to be right. But if you are wrong...all you have done is extend the pain a few more years down the road. The easy/comfortable decision is to extend him. Easy comfortable decisions regarding other players on the roster is one of the reasons the Giants are in this mess to begin with.
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As they should. There is no QB in this draft worth drafting, nor is there one on the roster.
Eli is the best option.
My heart wants you to be right. But if you are wrong...all you have done is extend the pain a few more years down the road. The easy/comfortable decision is to extend him. Easy comfortable decisions regarding other players on the roster is one of the reasons the Giants are in this mess to begin with.
Do you have a solution? Or are you just going to stick with "Eli isn't worth $20mil."? Do you want them to move on from him? Play Nassib?
I am simply questioning whether he is now or in the future worth the money he currently costs relative to the Salary cap. And my personal belief is that he is no longer worth what he costs relative to the teams salary cap. Eli has had a better career than 90% of his current peers could hope for. But the Giants can't pay him for what he has done...the have to pay him for what he can do moving forward. If you believe he will be a top 10 QB for the next 5 years...extend him and pay him what that going rate is. But you better be right.
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Eli Manning is not making that much money per year.
The AAV of his contract is about $16.2M. Compare him to other QBs with that AAV, like Alex Smith at $17M and below Andy Dalton.
Any figure more than that has nothing to do with him or his value and is about how the Giants' handle their accounting and chose to distribute the cap over multiple seasons.
Eli counts $20,400,000 against the cap this year. Next year if nothing changes it will be $19,750,000. That is a big number for a team that is not a contender. At least Alex Smith and Andy Dalton are contributing to decent teams. Eli from over the cap - ( New Window )
Yes, decent teams that somehow exist around them making more than Manning does because their FO have had better recent runs on talent than the Giants have.
Again: The figure you are throwing around is not Eli's salary. It's a product of the Giants' accounting decisions and how they chose to spread the cap hits out over six years. Manning is "only" a $16.2M QB -- he's sub Alex Smith at this point.