Both the coach and qb are PROVEN winners. Coughlin has taken us to the promised land TWICE beating Brady and Belicheck in the process. This is the modern day equivalent of beating Joe Montana and Bill Walsh TWICE in the superbowl. I suppose a case can be made about changing the coordinator(s) but consider that we won the second SB with Fewell as DC.
Eli has been a clutch player from his very first year (remember the Broncos game?) Some qbs NEVER show that ability. He's smart, durable and the best Giants qb I've ever seen. Significantly better than Simms and I love Phil. Eli has also shown the ability to throw multiple picks in a game if there's no pass blocking. I can only think of a few players currently in the league who would have done much better on sunday. The offensive line is atrocious (stating the obvious).
The one thing that any franchise needs is a quality head coach and a franchise qb. The Giants have both which makes the multiple losing seasons highly unusual.
But, lets think about our starting OL for those two SB runs for a minute. Diehl, who was a 5th rounder if I remember correctly, may not have been all that athletic, but was a road grader and an above average pass blocker. We picked up McKenzie in free agency (a Jets 4th rounder) to man RT. We used a high pick on Snee, picked O'hara up in free agency and hit gold with Seubert as an UDFA.
This is exactly the kind of value drafting and selective FA signings that we need in order to rebuild this team. Should Accorsi be given more credit for building the SB teams? We currently don't have any game changers on D no Strahans etc. Is this entirely Reeces' fault? OBJ is a nice player, but we're not adequately drafting for depth. Is Mara meddling where he should not? ('Owner's own, GM's manage and coaches coach')Did he force Gilbride out? Eli excelled in his offense when it counted most.
Understanding that what it really boils down to is we lack the players (imo) where does the blame lie? Obviously injuries have been a huge factor. But, if this is truly on Reece then what is the solution?
Is Ross also to blame? How about the individual scouts? What would be the best way to fix this problem if it is truly about the lack of personnel?
I don t think TC comes back unless this team gets on a roll, fair or not.
And even those seasons before the team turned them around were looking ugly and we almost missed the playoffs in both, we have made the playoffs a whooping 2 more times. We have made the playoffs 4 out 10 seasons under Tom and the Maras have had to force him to change coordinators a handfull of times. I'm sick of the ups and downs of his coaching which if you would define them as bi polar. The massive blowouts, the inability to play rookies when needed, the lack of developing players etc. It's time to go to a younger coach who can work with younger players faster. 07 we were forced to use younger players do to injury and we ended up winning. Tom reminds me of the Redskins coach you didn't want any rookies to play.
And even those seasons before the team turned them around were looking ugly and we almost missed the playoffs in both, we have made the playoffs a whooping 2 more times. We have made the playoffs 4 out 10 seasons under Tom and the Maras have had to force him to change coordinators a handfull of times. I'm sick of the ups and downs of his coaching which if you would define them as bi polar. The massive blowouts, the inability to play rookies when needed, the lack of developing players etc. It's time to go to a younger coach who can work with younger players faster. 07 we were forced to use younger players do to injury and we ended up winning. Tom reminds me of the Redskins coach you didn't want any rookies to play.
Lol. There is nothing worse than when someone says "if you remove the superbowl seasons..."
Yeah, let's just remove reaching he ultimate accomplishment TWICE when evaluating someone's impact.
And even those seasons before the team turned them around were looking ugly and we almost missed the playoffs in both, we have made the playoffs a whooping 2 more times. We have made the playoffs 4 out 10 seasons under Tom and the Maras have had to force him to change coordinators a handfull of times. I'm sick of the ups and downs of his coaching which if you would define them as bi polar. The massive blowouts, the inability to play rookies when needed, the lack of developing players etc. It's time to go to a younger coach who can work with younger players faster. 07 we were forced to use younger players do to injury and we ended up winning. Tom reminds me of the Redskins coach you didn't want any rookies to play.
It's a bad roster, made much worse by another year of ravaging injuries. DRC, Scwarts, thurmond, and Jennings -our crown jewel FA's all have been limited/ missed time. throw in beason, prince, cruz. brutal
I think this was yr 1 of a rebuild. If we had great luck with injuries i think this team could have won8-10 games. normal injuries they could win 7-9. I believe next year was the year to truly compete. just my opinion.
the terrible drafting and major injuries to budding players from 08-10 has hollowed out the team. that shows up particularly with depth and specials.
the last 2 drafts have been better.
as for coaching. . . the team has not quit and has not underacheived. they're just not good
He's part of the talent process. You think he just sits in his office complaining that Reese never picks any offensive linemen?
I also believe that at some point they will get him a professional O-line, or we better get used to 4-5 turnovers a game.
The bigger picture, though, is that the Giants have been a pretty mediocre team for most of Coughlin's tenure. As noted above, aside from those two (amazing, incredible, thrilling, worth-all-the-crap) playoff runs, there's a lot of blah. There was one dominant regular season, in 2008. Also a year when they won 10 games and missed the playoffs, which is a little bit flukey. The Giants did not manage to sustain regular season success the way some teams have in this era, notably Green Bay, New Orleans and New England.
The two championships mean TC can't be considered a failure by any stretch of the imagination, but he isn't a complete success, either. If he goes out on 4 or 5 win season, his legacy will be very mixed.
I also believe that at some point they will get him a professional O-line, or we better get used to 4-5 turnovers a game.
The bigger picture, though, is that the Giants have been a pretty mediocre team for most of Coughlin's tenure. As noted above, aside from those two (amazing, incredible, thrilling, worth-all-the-crap) playoff runs, there's a lot of blah. There was one dominant regular season, in 2008. Also a year when they won 10 games and missed the playoffs, which is a little bit flukey. The Giants did not manage to sustain regular season success the way some teams have in this era, notably Green Bay, New Orleans and New England.
The two championships mean TC can't be considered a failure by any stretch of the imagination, but he isn't a complete success, either. If he goes out on 4 or 5 win season, his legacy will be very mixed.
This was my point. Trust me I appreciate what he has done for the team and you cannot take anything away from those Super Bowl victories.
If we get back to an average number of injuries and we do OK in free agency and have a 3rd solid draft in a row, this team should be a contender next year.
That said, it's a difficult decision for me to make about tossing out Coughlin and Fewell. If one goes, the other will likely follow. I want to keep Reese. I've seen enough shit about Coughlin & Fewell to give pause to the idea of replacing them both.
If I'm having trouble deciding, I imagine Mara is also. Gun to my head, decision had to be made now for NEXT year, I replace them both.
I've had enough of shit players, shit injuries, shit excuses, total shit games to pull the trigger on across the board changes to coaches and a bunch of players.
So, let's put the blame on them and completely exonerate the old, white guy.
The obvious truth is that this is an organizational failure in which all parties deserve some share of the blame. The reason that Coughlin goes is that it is a long-standing practice to fire the coach first and then if a new coach does not do any better, the GM goes.
this is what passes for wisdom or philosophical insight these days.
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And even those seasons before the team turned them around were looking ugly and we almost missed the playoffs in both, we have made the playoffs a whooping 2 more times. We have made the playoffs 4 out 10 seasons under Tom and the Maras have had to force him to change coordinators a handfull of times. I'm sick of the ups and downs of his coaching which if you would define them as bi polar. The massive blowouts, the inability to play rookies when needed, the lack of developing players etc. It's time to go to a younger coach who can work with younger players faster. 07 we were forced to use younger players do to injury and we ended up winning. Tom reminds me of the Redskins coach you didn't want any rookies to play.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA. What a fucking idiot. Actually, BBI is filled with them so don't feel bad.
You are so right about that. There are even some people that call someone an f-n idiot almost everyone of their posts.
You are so right about that. There are even some people that call someone an f-n idiot almost everyone of their posts.
And it's incredibly ironic.
Certainly a successful career, but not someone who can't be replaced by a younger coach.
To hear all this talk about Eli being clutch, you are living in the past....a clutch qb does not throw 5 int's, and it's sad to hear members on this board invent new excuses when he throws them....this offense has been inconsistent and Eli is part of it....he has missed throws....he is staring down receivers...and yes, he is not a good short passer....he never was that good putting touch and accuracy on his short passes....I thought it would improve, because with this offense he would be forced to throw that pass....forcing it it does not make it better....
Eli has really let me down the last two seasons....the OL problems have had an effect, no doubt.....but we are seeing times when he has the time, and he is just plain missing throws....his best weapon is OBj...has OBj ever causght a big pass in stride or has he had to go up and make a great catch because Eli is just throwing it up there.....that leads to bad habits, especially when you throw it up in Randle's direction.....this team could easily be 5-4, hard to believe, if clutch/elite Eli was behind center.....Without a good OL in front of him in four seasons, he could be going down the road, a former qb on this team named Carr, did.....
Certainly a successful career, but not someone who can't be replaced by a younger coach.
How is someone with a .540 record over 198 games "a .500 coach"? That's an absurd statement.
And I guess getting an expansion team to the AFC Championship game counts for nothing.
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His career NFL record is 161-137 .540. And most every year he was blessed with a quality QB in Eli and Brunnel. He had 2 great playoff runs and a lot of mediocrity the rest of the time.
Certainly a successful career, but not someone who can't be replaced by a younger coach.
How is someone with a .540 record over 198 games "a .500 coach"? That's an absurd statement.
And I guess getting an expansion team to the AFC Championship game counts for nothing.
OK, it's .540. He has had 9 winning seasons and 9 losing. Now he is 68. I just don't get how people see him as irreplaceable.
There is no better job in football than coaching the Giants. I have no worry about finding a successor.
really?
only a few players could have done better then throw 5 INTs in a game. you must think this is the worst game any OL and WRs have ever played
this line undermines your entire credibility.
eli was god awful yesterday and there were plenty of guys who could have done better and even won yesterdays game. it doesnt undermine Eli to admit that.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/eli-manning-throws-4-interceptions-3-returned-scores-loss-vikings-article-1.261486 - ( New Window )
Just wondering...
Other teams do it and while they don't win, it is entertaining. And isn't that what football is - entertainment?
Look at what is going on with Washington. That's what I call entertaining.
We need a coach that will adjust to the talent we have. Seeing us run the ball over and over with no success has sealed the deal for me, the game has passed him bye.
Grey Pilgrim : 9:08 pm : link : reply
Do you remember the 2007 Vikings game?
Do you agree that a qb should get better as he gets older? That he should learn from his mistakes?
That was his fourth season.....I expected a young qb, who up to that point, had won nothing, and did not have a great season(56%, 23 td's, 20 int's), to have games like that......somehow, someway, he turned his season around and had a great playoff run....
I do not expect, an 11 year vet, 2 time SB MVP, to make the poor throws resulting in 5 interceptions, like yesterday......Eli was elite in 2011....he hasn't come close to that the last 3 seasons....clutch? Not this year....he has missed a lot of throws this year.....he alone, is not the reason for this offense's decline.....but he is the leader of this team, whether he wants the crown or not...as he goes, so goes the Giants.....how do you have confidence in your team, when your leader goes out and has a shit show like yesterday? You lead by doing, not what he did out there yesterday....
So by all means walk Coach out the door. But you better bring in a host of new talent along with a new staff. Oh & Tommy has beat Belichick 5 of 6 , with the one loss going down in league history as resembling the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae .
Maybe if you are the only person that keeps bringing it up it means the problem lies with the way that YOU and YOU alone think.
I can confidently speak for everyone here and say that if a green alien from Pluto could win 12 games next year we would all meet him at the spaceport with oak tag signs.
I don't need to forget or ignore their joyous legacy's to know shits fucked up right now..
But when Reese was making each player transaction that turned the solid rosters of 2011 and 2012 (a very good team with a tough schedule and a Super Bowl hangover), to an awful team in just two years, lots of people agreed with him and probably still would. (Of course lots of people here, namely 60 percent, answered in one of Eric's pre-season polls that the Giants would win at least ten games.)
Now I'm not saying that I think we should have retained all these following players, or that some would not have been possible to keep even if the team tried, or that everyone here isn't entitled to the usual violent disagreement. I'm far too lazy to put all that extra work into this. But these are the players we got rid of although in most cases we had no replacements for them.
Osi- over thirty years old and terrible against the run and not getting to passer more often and having a "bad attitude". It was thought that Pierre-Paul made Osi expendable despite the mantra we always heard about never having enough pass rushers. But for all the times that Osi's attempted speed rush just rushed him out of any position to make a play, the other QBs had to be thinking about his sack and strip numbers.
Tuck - great Giant and leader but couldn't pay him after he tailed off in 2012-13. At least Tuck could still turn it up a notch when the games became important. Kiwanuka had nothing to turn up.
Joseph - a good player but nothing special about him to command a big salary. When your run defense goes from 108 per game to 148 per game (last in the league), maybe the chief run stuffer was better than we thought. A lot of eyebrows around the league were raised at this Reese move.
Canty - an underrated defensive linemen good enough to still be on the Ravens and play in every game. Ravens have a much better run defense than this team you probably noticed.
Boley - a good pick up for the Super Bowl run, but already fading in 2012. Actually Boley was third in tackles in 2012, first in solo tackles, and had three picks. And who did we have to take his place?
Blackburn - how ridiculous to even consider a school teacher pressed into action in an emergency. Actually in 2012 Blackburn was third in tackles, second in solo tackles, had three sacks and five forced fumbles. He was still active until recently placed on IR.
Hill - What morons those 49ers are to accept Smith's word that he would not create any more trouble and put him right back on to the field. They will pay some day. Meanwhile, the Giants paid.
I agree the Eli is not getting the best supporting cast, but he also has not lost many of his bad habits. If you go into "full rebuilding mode" Would you take a couple draft picks and trade Eli to move into the Nassib era?
What if the Jets offered a 1&3 this year and a 2 next?
Yes Eli has won 2 SBs, but the Defense had as much to do with that as he did.
Many of the mistakes the Giants are making on the field could be attributed to coaching as well as players. A new coach, a new philosophy can be good.
Remember before the run with TC the players had a bit of a revolt and TC changed his ways and became a kindler, gentler HC.
I appreciate all he has done, but to say the Giants have been nothing but great under TC/Eli would be a bit of a lie.
Even the 49ers moved on from Joe Montana -- who by and large was a far better QB who won 4 SBs and led the Chiefs to the playoffs twice after a a couple year layoff due to injury.