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Are we all pretty much in agreement on Marc Ross?

jcn56 : 11/18/2014 9:36 am
It would be a BBI first - but I don't think I've seen anyone defend this guy, and I've seen more posts than I can count wanting him gone.

Hired just after the SB in 2007, the drafting seems to take a noticeable downturn right after his arrival. Granted, part of that was the strategy that is the undoing of a lot of championship teams in the parity era, trying to stick with an overpaid, aging core for too long, but it seems that removing Reese from that spot and replacing him with Ross was a massive drop.

I do think Reese is very good as a personnel man, but I think he needs to be more hands on. And that the guy he hired to fill his spot needs to go.

Is there anyone that feels Ross is being unfairly blamed? Any defense to mount whatsoever?
No defense at all. He's done a terrible job.  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 11/18/2014 9:37 am : link
But that doesn't absolve Reese.
Ross appears to be the flashpoint  
JonC : 11/18/2014 9:39 am : link
Nothing else we've come up with jives as cleanly, as I recall.

Injuries and the prospects we lost to career-enders is part of the failure equation as well, but the overall quality and the minimal contributions we're typically getting from the draft picks has markedly dropped.

Ross was hired to "run the draft"  
Fast Eddie : 11/18/2014 9:40 am : link
I think that means he orders the coffee and doughnuts for the draft room
Also, I suspect analysis regarding losing Gettleman  
JonC : 11/18/2014 9:42 am : link
would reveal his loss is also being felt on the UFA side.

If feels as if we have multiple blind spots not in the evaluation process for UFAs, draft choices, injury histories, etc. Imv.
RE: No defense at all. He's done a terrible job.  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/18/2014 9:42 am : link
In comment 11985901 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
But that doesn't absolve Reese.


I've never understood the people who tom after Ross and not Reese. Who the fuck works for who?

They all need to go. Including Mara. Ownership is too involved again. Would love a total outsider like Polian to over see things.
And there are rumblings  
Fast Eddie : 11/18/2014 9:42 am : link
that he has ordered way too many glazed when they wanted crème filled
who knows?  
aquidneck : 11/18/2014 9:43 am : link
Giants have no less than 6 guys who could be held directly responsible for personnel decisions. That doesn't even count our scouts. Chris Mara is our Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. How much is his fault?

Maybe Ross has made nothing but positive suggestions only to be over ruled each and every time by others within the organization...

We have no clarity as fans into Giants personnel decision making process.
Giants team administratiion. - ( New Window )
This is like the bat signal for Greg :)  
Mike in Long Beach : 11/18/2014 9:44 am : link
Not that I disagree with him.
Not entirely.  
Curtis in VA : 11/18/2014 9:46 am : link
I am on the fence, and would probably be inclined to give him another chance. So far this most recent draft looks good. I don't know what, if anything, they did differently regarding scouting and choosing players in 2014. But it worked.

We even drafted a LB with some good potential, for once.

It seems like he finally has had some success. I'd give him another chance to see if this is the beginning of something positive.
All I know is this  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2014 9:46 am : link
You compare the drafts Reese ran 2003-07 and the drafts Ross has run since 2008, and the decline in quality is drastic. It's even worse when you consider the fact that the GM is most hands-on in the first round, which the Giants have still done pretty well with aside from Wilson. In the later rounds, when the Giants (from what I've always read) stick pretty strictly to their draft board, they've done horribly.

I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.
RE: All I know is this  
AcidTest : 11/18/2014 9:51 am : link
In comment 11985923 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You compare the drafts Reese ran 2003-07 and the drafts Ross has run since 2008, and the decline in quality is drastic. It's even worse when you consider the fact that the GM is most hands-on in the first round, which the Giants have still done pretty well with aside from Wilson. In the later rounds, when the Giants (from what I've always read) stick pretty strictly to their draft board, they've done horribly.

I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.


I'd like to fire both, but you make the best case possible for dumping Ross and keeping Reese. Ross also had poor drafts at Philadelphia IIRC. And there is no question that the quality of the drafts has declined dramatically since Ross was hired.
It does appear though that the last two drafts may  
Go Terps : 11/18/2014 9:54 am : link
represent a reversal of the negative trend.

Beckham
Richburg
Williams
Kennard
Pugh
Hankins
Nassib

That's a nice immediate return for two drafts, and we still have more to learn about Bromley, Berhe, Jackson, Moore, and Taylor.

I don't think now is necessarily the time to fire people because they may have solved some issues on their own already.
RE: who knows?  
jcn56 : 11/18/2014 9:55 am : link
In comment 11985912 aquidneck said:
Quote:
Giants have no less than 6 guys who could be held directly responsible for personnel decisions. That doesn't even count our scouts. Chris Mara is our Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. How much is his fault?

Maybe Ross has made nothing but positive suggestions only to be over ruled each and every time by others within the organization...

We have no clarity as fans into Giants personnel decision making process. Giants team administratiion. - ( New Window )


I've also wondered about what goes on behind the curtain with regards to governance, what with Mara essentially being the team's owner but a subordinate to Reese.

The problem with pointing the finger there is Mara has been in that position for awhile (even if he didn't formally have the title), so if his presence was going to muck things up, it would've done so earlier.

Plus - I don't believe Ross is entirely to blame, but if he's part of the problem, he should be gone, even if there are others that need to be addressed.
I could go either way on Reese  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2014 9:56 am : link
I'm not going to yell about it if he does go. I WILL, however, be very angry if Ross stays on.

Personally, I liked jcn's idea of restructuring the front office. Let Jerry keep the GM title but put him back in charge of college scouting, and let someone else run pro scouting and free agency. Whatever failings Reese has had as a GM, I do believe he's an excellent director of college scouting.
RE: I could go either way on Reese  
AcidTest : 11/18/2014 10:00 am : link
In comment 11985956 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I'm not going to yell about it if he does go. I WILL, however, be very angry if Ross stays on.

Personally, I liked jcn's idea of restructuring the front office. Let Jerry keep the GM title but put him back in charge of college scouting, and let someone else run pro scouting and free agency. Whatever failings Reese has had as a GM, I do believe he's an excellent director of college scouting.


My guess is neither is fired.
I don't think there is a defense with Ross  
Hades07 : 11/18/2014 10:01 am : link
But getting rid of him won't fix the problems with the team. From the outside though it seems he is not part of the solution and should be gone regardless of who else is kept or let go.
then that would be a mistake  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2014 10:01 am : link
I can't find any evidence whatsoever that Marc Ross is any good at what he does, other than the Giants saying "Marc Ross is one of the best in the business"
RE: I don't think there is a defense with Ross  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2014 10:02 am : link
In comment 11985980 Hades07 said:
Quote:
But getting rid of him won't fix the problems with the team.


If our drafting goes back to what it was a decade ago, that WILL go a long way towards fixing the problems.
Agree with Aquidneck  
Samiam : 11/18/2014 10:03 am : link
We don't know what goes on the draft room or what goes into the scouting reports or ow decisions are made. We pretty much have no idea what happens and watching a fluff tv series on scouting doesn't really add much. We don't know. That said, the Giants look like they had a really good draft this year and if it turns out that Pugh is playing hurt, then a pretty good draft last year as well. Plus, although I didn't like the idea of Wilson with a 1st round pick, how does anybody know how he would have turned with some coaching and some experience? Last, we don't know what happened to Nicks but up until the year before last, he was developing into an elite receiver. Now, the pick was a bad pick. If anybody who makes the draft decisions can predict who will get a career ending or altering injury in advance, that would be a pretty good talent.
RE: All I know is this  
sjnyfan : 11/18/2014 10:06 am : link
In comment 11985923 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You compare the drafts Reese ran 2003-07 and the drafts Ross has run since 2008, and the decline in quality is drastic. It's even worse when you consider the fact that the GM is most hands-on in the first round, which the Giants have still done pretty well with aside from Wilson. In the later rounds, when the Giants (from what I've always read) stick pretty strictly to their draft board, they've done horribly.

I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.



^^^^^^^

Exactly. Even though Ross was hired in 2007 JR still ran that board that year and look what we got out of that group. Since then it has been markedly worse. Furthermore, Marc Ross first became a lead scout in 2000 with the Eagles and then after the '04 draft through '06 with the Bills. There aren't many players that got 2nd contracts from the team that drafted them, a common theme since '08 around here. He's had entire classes where not one player played 100 games in the NFL. 12 years as a lhead scout, not one GM postion and that speaks volumes but none louder than the murmurs around the league about his work ethic, or lack thereof. I want Ross gone as much as Fewell or Quinn. Let JR pull double duty for the spring leading up to the draft.
The problem  
English Alaister : 11/18/2014 10:07 am : link
is that, as others point out, this is all conjecture.

We don't know who screwed up each pick. Bad scouting at source, Mara involvement, Coughlin involvement, Reese screwing up, Ross screwing up.

I feel like many on here when I say I am pretty sure that Reese is a good scout, I think that is why we don't have a first round bust other than to injury in forever. Ross was very highly regarded when we got him. I'm not prepared to throw him in the bin without knowing the detail. I do accept the appearance is he struggled mightily from 09 to 13

What is for sure Mara is should be going through the last 5 drafts and examining them with a fine-toothed comb as to who was responsible for what and being certain that a) the problem is fixed or b) working out what changes need to be made.

I do accept the drafts have gotten better recently but I need to see a sustained improvement.
RE: RE: All I know is this  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/18/2014 10:09 am : link
In comment 11985934 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 11985923 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


You compare the drafts Reese ran 2003-07 and the drafts Ross has run since 2008, and the decline in quality is drastic. It's even worse when you consider the fact that the GM is most hands-on in the first round, which the Giants have still done pretty well with aside from Wilson. In the later rounds, when the Giants (from what I've always read) stick pretty strictly to their draft board, they've done horribly.

I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.



I'd like to fire both, but you make the best case possible for dumping Ross and keeping Reese. Ross also had poor drafts at Philadelphia IIRC. And there is no question that the quality of the drafts has declined dramatically since Ross was hired.


But if Reese is the GM and he keeps a guy who sucks whose fault is that? Do you trust whomever Reese then brings in? I don't I can understand that Ross is at the root of the issue but ultimately Reese is responsible.

And as for the last two drafts being better we seem hear that every year. The last two drafts look good. And then 3-4 years later you see or two guys left.
This is a bit narrow but look at the Linebackers  
Dinger : 11/18/2014 10:48 am : link
we've picked since Ross has been here(I actually feel it pre-dates his hire). Now we KNOW he is not the only one involved BUT it does prove, I think, that the 'team' can't get that position 'right' for the life of them.....

They moved up to get Brian Kehl!!! They picked Clint Sintim in the second round. About the only one they 'hit' on was Zak DeOssie!
Ross  
Sammo284 : 11/18/2014 11:14 am : link
Has interviewed for several other GM jobs and not really come that close aside from being among the final three candidates despite the Giants aggressively promoting him for other opportunities.

I don't see the Giants firing two minority front office personnel in the same offseason due to PR concerns even though you could make a convincing argument both are responsible for our significant downturn. But out of the two Ross kind of has to go and Reese needs to get things turned around in quick order including redoing the scouting area and redesigning his roster management approach.
Ross should be the next out the door  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/18/2014 12:23 pm : link
he has blown 5 drafts in a row starting in 2008
from what I understand #1 rd pick is Reese's, after that Ross runs the picks

and watching "Finding Giants" you could see Ross in the draft room, "selling " TC on the players he likes... If I was ownership, I would really take a hard look at Ross. Seems like the point of divergence
Its Injuries, that is what is killing this team  
Coughlin's Rules : 11/18/2014 12:33 pm : link
I think the last 2 drafts so far have been much better. Yes the previous drafts were terrible. It was probably a couple of factors taking some risk because of the current makeup of the team and also the lower draft positions because we did win 2 freakin Super Bowls, they played a lot of physical games to win those championships and it has an effect. But I think the team has also learned a few lessons and maybe changed their criteria going forward. It certainly looks that way recently.

The real issue is injuries. We have a real problem and I can see the team is trying to address it with the nutrition and gps programs but something is wrong.

I can understand if a team gets injuries normally throughout the course of the season but we get DECIMATED. Compare us to other teams as far as games per player lost were are always at the top of close to the top of the list. The last few years we are setting uprecendented records.

This is not new either. This has been going on for years. I can see if we sign a player who is often injured he gets hurt again, ok that is the risk ala Beason. But we sign guys or draft guys who never get hurt and boom down they go. DRC never misses games and now he is here and playing hurt. Thurmond another one. Cruz another one. Pugh another one, Jennings another one. It is a never ending story on this team and one the continues to undercut the potential.

Think about what this team could do if it had some of its starters playing not all, we would be much better off. For Gods sake we have guys off the street playing various positions for us!

I think the Coach is doing everything he can, I think we do need a replacement at DCoordinator Oline and Specials but we need to build a roster of players that can stand up to the physicality of the NFL. Clearly we are missing that element when evaluating talent. Size and speed are great when healthy, but I'd rather have someone that had talent and could stay on the field too.
Useful Thoughts in This Thread  
Percy : 11/18/2014 12:50 pm : link
Chris Mara's role, unclear as it is, is troubling. The guy tried to make it elsewhere for a while, didn't he, and not so well? What is he doing in there? Ross clearly needs to go. I do not understand defending him. Reese, too, I'm afraid. What all this has to do with who ought to be DC next year escapes me. Coaching is a separate issue.

It strikes me as probable that, whatever strategy the senior Mara settles on to address all of this, will not and cannot be implemented all at once -- like the team itself, some will have to be kept for transition purposes even if they also have to be on the hit list for eventual replacement. Getting a whole new, revitalized, more competent set of personnel evaluators in place before the next draft and FA season, all by itself, would be one hell of a job. Maybe it is undoable. But one has to try. Getting a Reese replacement as step one may be the only way to go about it.
do we know enough about how the Giants are run to assign blame  
chris r : 11/18/2014 12:51 pm : link
to individuals other than the GM who has final responsibility?
Until someone can actually express a firm understanding  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/18/2014 12:52 pm : link
of Chris Mara and Marc Ross' role in the process and the decisions they've made, I find it a bit strange to start heaping blame and declaring them incompetent.
Marc Ross runs the draft and has since 2008  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2014 1:03 pm : link
He's the guy who puts together the draft board.
And before anyone asks  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2014 1:08 pm : link
No, I don't know exactly what it is that Chris Mara does, but look at it this way - what changed after 2007 in the Giants' scouting department? It wasn't Chris Mara. He was already there for years through the very productive 2003-07 drafts.

It was Marc Ross being hired in 2008.
RE: All I know is this  
cosmicj : 11/18/2014 1:10 pm : link
In comment 11985923 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You compare the drafts Reese ran 2003-07 and the drafts Ross has run since 2008, and the decline in quality is drastic. It's even worse when you consider the fact that the GM is most hands-on in the first round, which the Giants have still done pretty well with aside from Wilson. In the later rounds, when the Giants (from what I've always read) stick pretty strictly to their draft board, they've done horribly.

I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.


Greg -Very much agree with this post and the one you made before. We need to temper criticism of Ross because of all the things we don't know, but the bottom line shows a drastic difference in ability between Ross and Reese.

I've written this elsewhere but we have every reason  
cosmicj : 11/18/2014 1:12 pm : link
to believe Jerry Reese is a top echelon college talent evaluator. You cannot - and I mean CANNOT - as an NFL team just let go that sort of ability. I would look to organizational changes around Reese to allow him to do what he does best.
slight correction  
Greg from LI : 11/18/2014 1:13 pm : link
Ross was hired in 2007, but after the draft, so the 2008 draft was the first one he worked on.
Ross needs to go  
Torrag : 11/18/2014 1:15 pm : link
His performance leading the Giants scouting and draft have been subpar. He clearly hasn't maintained the standard set by JR during his tenure led by Ernie Accorsi.

Once he and Fewell are shown the door the two biggest steps to righting the ship will have been accomplished.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/18/2014 1:16 pm : link
I definitely think Ross is more of an issue than Reese.

I've wanted Reese to get more involved in the drafts again and I'm not sure if I'm making this up or not but I thought he did have more input in this past draft than prior recent ones and it seems like the results were better.

I still think Reese is a front office asset and I'd like to keep him on board. I really do think Ross has to go, though.
I said when he was hired  
DelZotto : 11/18/2014 1:57 pm : link
We don't want a guy who was fired by the Eagles and was scouting for the Bills to run our drafts. Obviously Reese played the race card and the results speak for themselves.
I agree that Ross is the issue with the draft  
Some Fan : 11/18/2014 2:04 pm : link
Plus, whoever is in charge of FA signings is screwing the pooch royally. Both need to go but we need to hire guys who can do that job.
Why is it ...  
Fpbflppt : 11/18/2014 3:59 pm : link
that James Brewer, Brandon Mosely, Adrien Robinson and Corey Washington are still on the roster? Shouldn't the Giants have ditched them by now? Why pay them if you're not going to play them?
I think Greg said it very well  
Matt M. : 11/18/2014 4:04 pm : link
And, with the last couple of drafts I would be more willing to keep Reese on. But, I will say that I think both he and Coughlin should be strongly tied to the level; of success this team experiences next year.
I think injuries  
PaulBlakeTSU : 11/18/2014 6:00 pm : link
have completely derailed the team since Ross took over. This is what Ross has had to deal with.

Take a good look at the first 3 rounds of each draft since Marc Ross took over. I can't imagine a team that has lost more top draft picks to injury over that span. Can we really blame Marc Ross for that?


2008
Round 1: Kenny Phillips- career over to injury
Round 2: Terrell Thomas- career over to injury
Round 3: Mario Manningham- career ruined to injury

2009
Round 1: Hakeem Nicks- career ruined to injury
Round 2: Clint Sintim- career ruined by two ACL tears before 3rd season, while playing out of position.
Round 3: Will Beatty (some seem to like him)

2010
Round 1: JPP (looked like perennial All-Pro, now injury plagued
Round 2: Linval Joseph (played well, let go for $)
Round 3: Chad Jones- career ruined due to injury

2011
Round 1: Prince Amukamara (flashes of top play, much injury)
Round 2: Marvin Austin (took a flyer, bust)
Round 3: Jerrell Jernigan (ugh)

2012
Round 1: David Wilson (career ruined due to injury)
Round 2: Rueben Randle (hasn't elevated game to next level yet)
Round 3: Jayron Hosely (terrible)

2013:
Round 1: Justin Pugh (great rookie season, possibly out of position)
Round 2: Jonathan Hankins (flashes, too early to tell)
Round 3: DaMontre Moore (flashes, too early to tell)

2014:
Round 1: Odell Becham (looks to be a stud)
Roun 2: Weston Richburg (shown flashes, but out of position)
Round 3: Jay Bromley (TBD)
----------------------


His first round pick from 2008-2012 were all retired by injury prematurely or have been missing time/limited to injury. Round 2 and 3 haven't fared much more fortunate, either.
I don't  
PaulBlakeTSU : 11/18/2014 6:05 pm : link
know what success rates are on late round talent, but I think Ross and the Giants have done a solid job identifitying top level talent in the first few rounds of the draft.

I also think that losing so many dynamic players has ruined the team and the Giants team has lacked in talent for several years now. As such, I think that has a direct effect on the ability of the other players to develop and play well.
RE: who knows?  
Four Rings : 11/19/2014 9:18 am : link
I don't think Chris Mara will be fired

I know pointing out to  
dep026 : 11/19/2014 9:24 am : link
one example is not the best thing. But LB was a huge need coming in for the Giants and sitting in the 3rd round was a guy who was a bit undersized, slipped a few picks, and was primed for us to take.

Instead we take Jay Bromley, who granted may turn out to be a good player, a little earlier than most projected. Chris Borland is STARRING not starting for the 49ers in place of injuries. He would be our best LB right now if he was on our team.

Instead we have a guy who is not good enough to play over Markus Kuhn. Little things like that are just killer to the development of your team.
Besides owning the team  
Giants2012 : 11/19/2014 9:49 am : link
what football credentials do the Mara's have? Why are they casting votes in the draft room? As the football minds like Gettleman's leave, what's left? Look at the roster, these guys are the reason the roster sucks.
dep  
PaulBlakeTSU : 11/19/2014 9:51 am : link
which linebacker hasn't played like a star when insterted into the starting role in San Francisco? Willis, Bowman, Smith, Brooks, Lynch, Borland... nothing against Borland, but it could be that Fangio and San Francisco have a system in place that makes LBs look great. Who is to say that Borland would have had the same success here?
RE: I know pointing out to  
Giants2012 : 11/19/2014 9:54 am : link
In comment 11987990 dep026 said:
Quote:
one example is not the best thing. But LB was a huge need coming in for the Giants and sitting in the 3rd round was a guy who was a bit undersized, slipped a few picks, and was primed for us to take.

Instead we take Jay Bromley, who granted may turn out to be a good player, a little earlier than most projected. Chris Borland is STARRING not starting for the 49ers in place of injuries. He would be our best LB right now if he was on our team.

Instead we have a guy who is not good enough to play over Markus Kuhn. Little things like that are just killer to the development of your team.


but, Kennard has shown signs so i'm (just me) isn't going to kill them for passing on Bortland. They did need another DT yet, as usual, the development had better accelerate to more reps by next year.

Meanwhile, my hopes of EJ Gaines never came true for the NYG. Look how well he's playing in St Louis. (A really good football player yet not a combine athlete).
giants2012  
aquidneck : 11/19/2014 9:59 am : link
We don't know.

If you're a Mara, you're born into NFL football. Around coaches, players all your life. Maybe you learn something about the sport. Just because you're born a Mara doesn't mean you *can't* make sound football decisions.

Lots of guys involved in the personnel decision process including coaches, I think. Lots of opinions and voices...

Whose to say who is accountable?
RE: Besides owning the team  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/19/2014 9:59 am : link
In comment 11988050 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
what football credentials do the Mara's have? Why are they casting votes in the draft room? As the football minds like Gettleman's leave, what's left? Look at the roster, these guys are the reason the roster sucks.


You mean besides decades of experience in the football business?

How do you think Gettleman became a football mind? By learning. Somehow it's impossible for Chris Mara or even John to have done the same thing? They've been surrounded by it and doing the work their whole lives.
RE: RE: Besides owning the team  
Giants2012 : 11/19/2014 10:16 am : link
In comment 11988076 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 11988050 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


what football credentials do the Mara's have? Why are they casting votes in the draft room? As the football minds like Gettleman's leave, what's left? Look at the roster, these guys are the reason the roster sucks.



You mean besides decades of experience in the football business?

How do you think Gettleman became a football mind? By learning. Somehow it's impossible for Chris Mara or even John to have done the same thing? They've been surrounded by it and doing the work their whole lives.


Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones have been in the football business for more than a decade too. Want owners casting votes in the draft room? Apparently
RE: giants2012  
Giants2012 : 11/19/2014 10:20 am : link
In comment 11988074 aquidneck said:
Quote:
We don't know.

If you're a Mara, you're born into NFL football. Around coaches, players all your life. Maybe you learn something about the sport. Just because you're born a Mara doesn't mean you *can't* make sound football decisions.

Lots of guys involved in the personnel decision process including coaches, I think. Lots of opinions and voices...

Whose to say who is accountable?


Wasn't Wellington Mara born into football too? He needed the NFL to step on an appoint George Young b/c the organization was so dysfunctional. Which Giants fans didn't see the OL a train wreck prior to 2013 yet John Mara claimed "nobody saw this coming". More and more football minds like Gettleman are not in the draft room and it shows.

RE: RE: RE: Besides owning the team  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/19/2014 11:21 am : link
In comment 11988120 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 11988076 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 11988050 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


what football credentials do the Mara's have? Why are they casting votes in the draft room? As the football minds like Gettleman's leave, what's left? Look at the roster, these guys are the reason the roster sucks.



You mean besides decades of experience in the football business?

How do you think Gettleman became a football mind? By learning. Somehow it's impossible for Chris Mara or even John to have done the same thing? They've been surrounded by it and doing the work their whole lives.



Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones have been in the football business for more than a decade too. Want owners casting votes in the draft room? Apparently



Do you not even see what you're suggesting here?

So, nobody can learn to do something well unless you're magically born with a "football mind"?
Petty  
Giants2012 : 11/19/2014 11:31 am : link
Yes, eveybody can learn. Maybe Kate can be the next GM too.
It's kinda funny  
jcn56 : 11/19/2014 11:32 am : link
Both John and Chris Mara were around when things were humming, and you didn't hear as much. Now, in fairness with regards to Chris, he was at least promoted to SVP of Player Personnel in 2011, so you could make a halfway decent argument that he's in part responsible.

But John's been the owner the whole way through - unless his influence or his impact have changed, it's hard to see how he's responsible for any of this (don't confuse responsible with accountable; he's the owner, and ultimately accountable for all of it).

Before things went south, Chris Mara was supposedly getting some play outside the org. How much of it was just nice PR story versus how much legitimate interest, we can't possibly know.
I can't believe we're having to discuss how human beings  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/19/2014 11:34 am : link
develop skills in professions, but here we are.



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