It would be a BBI first - but I don't think I've seen anyone defend this guy, and I've seen more posts than I can count wanting him gone.
Hired just after the SB in 2007, the drafting seems to take a noticeable downturn right after his arrival. Granted, part of that was the strategy that is the undoing of a lot of championship teams in the parity era, trying to stick with an overpaid, aging core for too long, but it seems that removing Reese from that spot and replacing him with Ross was a massive drop.
I do think Reese is very good as a personnel man, but I think he needs to be more hands on. And that the guy he hired to fill his spot needs to go.
Is there anyone that feels Ross is being unfairly blamed? Any defense to mount whatsoever?
Injuries and the prospects we lost to career-enders is part of the failure equation as well, but the overall quality and the minimal contributions we're typically getting from the draft picks has markedly dropped.
If feels as if we have multiple blind spots not in the evaluation process for UFAs, draft choices, injury histories, etc. Imv.
I've never understood the people who tom after Ross and not Reese. Who the fuck works for who?
They all need to go. Including Mara. Ownership is too involved again. Would love a total outsider like Polian to over see things.
Maybe Ross has made nothing but positive suggestions only to be over ruled each and every time by others within the organization...
We have no clarity as fans into Giants personnel decision making process.
Giants team administratiion. - ( New Window )
We even drafted a LB with some good potential, for once.
It seems like he finally has had some success. I'd give him another chance to see if this is the beginning of something positive.
I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.
I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.
I'd like to fire both, but you make the best case possible for dumping Ross and keeping Reese. Ross also had poor drafts at Philadelphia IIRC. And there is no question that the quality of the drafts has declined dramatically since Ross was hired.
Beckham
Richburg
Williams
Kennard
Pugh
Hankins
Nassib
That's a nice immediate return for two drafts, and we still have more to learn about Bromley, Berhe, Jackson, Moore, and Taylor.
I don't think now is necessarily the time to fire people because they may have solved some issues on their own already.
Maybe Ross has made nothing but positive suggestions only to be over ruled each and every time by others within the organization...
We have no clarity as fans into Giants personnel decision making process. Giants team administratiion. - ( New Window )
I've also wondered about what goes on behind the curtain with regards to governance, what with Mara essentially being the team's owner but a subordinate to Reese.
The problem with pointing the finger there is Mara has been in that position for awhile (even if he didn't formally have the title), so if his presence was going to muck things up, it would've done so earlier.
Plus - I don't believe Ross is entirely to blame, but if he's part of the problem, he should be gone, even if there are others that need to be addressed.
Personally, I liked jcn's idea of restructuring the front office. Let Jerry keep the GM title but put him back in charge of college scouting, and let someone else run pro scouting and free agency. Whatever failings Reese has had as a GM, I do believe he's an excellent director of college scouting.
Personally, I liked jcn's idea of restructuring the front office. Let Jerry keep the GM title but put him back in charge of college scouting, and let someone else run pro scouting and free agency. Whatever failings Reese has had as a GM, I do believe he's an excellent director of college scouting.
My guess is neither is fired.
If our drafting goes back to what it was a decade ago, that WILL go a long way towards fixing the problems.
I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.
^^^^^^^
Exactly. Even though Ross was hired in 2007 JR still ran that board that year and look what we got out of that group. Since then it has been markedly worse. Furthermore, Marc Ross first became a lead scout in 2000 with the Eagles and then after the '04 draft through '06 with the Bills. There aren't many players that got 2nd contracts from the team that drafted them, a common theme since '08 around here. He's had entire classes where not one player played 100 games in the NFL. 12 years as a lhead scout, not one GM postion and that speaks volumes but none louder than the murmurs around the league about his work ethic, or lack thereof. I want Ross gone as much as Fewell or Quinn. Let JR pull double duty for the spring leading up to the draft.
We don't know who screwed up each pick. Bad scouting at source, Mara involvement, Coughlin involvement, Reese screwing up, Ross screwing up.
I feel like many on here when I say I am pretty sure that Reese is a good scout, I think that is why we don't have a first round bust other than to injury in forever. Ross was very highly regarded when we got him. I'm not prepared to throw him in the bin without knowing the detail. I do accept the appearance is he struggled mightily from 09 to 13
What is for sure Mara is should be going through the last 5 drafts and examining them with a fine-toothed comb as to who was responsible for what and being certain that a) the problem is fixed or b) working out what changes need to be made.
I do accept the drafts have gotten better recently but I need to see a sustained improvement.
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You compare the drafts Reese ran 2003-07 and the drafts Ross has run since 2008, and the decline in quality is drastic. It's even worse when you consider the fact that the GM is most hands-on in the first round, which the Giants have still done pretty well with aside from Wilson. In the later rounds, when the Giants (from what I've always read) stick pretty strictly to their draft board, they've done horribly.
I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.
I'd like to fire both, but you make the best case possible for dumping Ross and keeping Reese. Ross also had poor drafts at Philadelphia IIRC. And there is no question that the quality of the drafts has declined dramatically since Ross was hired.
But if Reese is the GM and he keeps a guy who sucks whose fault is that? Do you trust whomever Reese then brings in? I don't I can understand that Ross is at the root of the issue but ultimately Reese is responsible.
And as for the last two drafts being better we seem hear that every year. The last two drafts look good. And then 3-4 years later you see or two guys left.
They moved up to get Brian Kehl!!! They picked Clint Sintim in the second round. About the only one they 'hit' on was Zak DeOssie!
I don't see the Giants firing two minority front office personnel in the same offseason due to PR concerns even though you could make a convincing argument both are responsible for our significant downturn. But out of the two Ross kind of has to go and Reese needs to get things turned around in quick order including redoing the scouting area and redesigning his roster management approach.
from what I understand #1 rd pick is Reese's, after that Ross runs the picks
and watching "Finding Giants" you could see Ross in the draft room, "selling " TC on the players he likes... If I was ownership, I would really take a hard look at Ross. Seems like the point of divergence
The real issue is injuries. We have a real problem and I can see the team is trying to address it with the nutrition and gps programs but something is wrong.
I can understand if a team gets injuries normally throughout the course of the season but we get DECIMATED. Compare us to other teams as far as games per player lost were are always at the top of close to the top of the list. The last few years we are setting uprecendented records.
This is not new either. This has been going on for years. I can see if we sign a player who is often injured he gets hurt again, ok that is the risk ala Beason. But we sign guys or draft guys who never get hurt and boom down they go. DRC never misses games and now he is here and playing hurt. Thurmond another one. Cruz another one. Pugh another one, Jennings another one. It is a never ending story on this team and one the continues to undercut the potential.
Think about what this team could do if it had some of its starters playing not all, we would be much better off. For Gods sake we have guys off the street playing various positions for us!
I think the Coach is doing everything he can, I think we do need a replacement at DCoordinator Oline and Specials but we need to build a roster of players that can stand up to the physicality of the NFL. Clearly we are missing that element when evaluating talent. Size and speed are great when healthy, but I'd rather have someone that had talent and could stay on the field too.
It strikes me as probable that, whatever strategy the senior Mara settles on to address all of this, will not and cannot be implemented all at once -- like the team itself, some will have to be kept for transition purposes even if they also have to be on the hit list for eventual replacement. Getting a whole new, revitalized, more competent set of personnel evaluators in place before the next draft and FA season, all by itself, would be one hell of a job. Maybe it is undoable. But one has to try. Getting a Reese replacement as step one may be the only way to go about it.
It was Marc Ross being hired in 2008.
I can live with arguments that Reese is ultimately responsible because he's Ross' boss, but I'd be fine with keeping Jerry on and dumping Ross.
Greg -Very much agree with this post and the one you made before. We need to temper criticism of Ross because of all the things we don't know, but the bottom line shows a drastic difference in ability between Ross and Reese.
Once he and Fewell are shown the door the two biggest steps to righting the ship will have been accomplished.
I've wanted Reese to get more involved in the drafts again and I'm not sure if I'm making this up or not but I thought he did have more input in this past draft than prior recent ones and it seems like the results were better.
I still think Reese is a front office asset and I'd like to keep him on board. I really do think Ross has to go, though.
Take a good look at the first 3 rounds of each draft since Marc Ross took over. I can't imagine a team that has lost more top draft picks to injury over that span. Can we really blame Marc Ross for that?
2008
Round 1: Kenny Phillips- career over to injury
Round 2: Terrell Thomas- career over to injury
Round 3: Mario Manningham- career ruined to injury
2009
Round 1: Hakeem Nicks- career ruined to injury
Round 2: Clint Sintim- career ruined by two ACL tears before 3rd season, while playing out of position.
Round 3: Will Beatty (some seem to like him)
2010
Round 1: JPP (looked like perennial All-Pro, now injury plagued
Round 2: Linval Joseph (played well, let go for $)
Round 3: Chad Jones- career ruined due to injury
2011
Round 1: Prince Amukamara (flashes of top play, much injury)
Round 2: Marvin Austin (took a flyer, bust)
Round 3: Jerrell Jernigan (ugh)
2012
Round 1: David Wilson (career ruined due to injury)
Round 2: Rueben Randle (hasn't elevated game to next level yet)
Round 3: Jayron Hosely (terrible)
2013:
Round 1: Justin Pugh (great rookie season, possibly out of position)
Round 2: Jonathan Hankins (flashes, too early to tell)
Round 3: DaMontre Moore (flashes, too early to tell)
2014:
Round 1: Odell Becham (looks to be a stud)
Roun 2: Weston Richburg (shown flashes, but out of position)
Round 3: Jay Bromley (TBD)
----------------------
His first round pick from 2008-2012 were all retired by injury prematurely or have been missing time/limited to injury. Round 2 and 3 haven't fared much more fortunate, either.
I also think that losing so many dynamic players has ruined the team and the Giants team has lacked in talent for several years now. As such, I think that has a direct effect on the ability of the other players to develop and play well.
Instead we take Jay Bromley, who granted may turn out to be a good player, a little earlier than most projected. Chris Borland is STARRING not starting for the 49ers in place of injuries. He would be our best LB right now if he was on our team.
Instead we have a guy who is not good enough to play over Markus Kuhn. Little things like that are just killer to the development of your team.
Instead we take Jay Bromley, who granted may turn out to be a good player, a little earlier than most projected. Chris Borland is STARRING not starting for the 49ers in place of injuries. He would be our best LB right now if he was on our team.
Instead we have a guy who is not good enough to play over Markus Kuhn. Little things like that are just killer to the development of your team.
but, Kennard has shown signs so i'm (just me) isn't going to kill them for passing on Bortland. They did need another DT yet, as usual, the development had better accelerate to more reps by next year.
Meanwhile, my hopes of EJ Gaines never came true for the NYG. Look how well he's playing in St Louis. (A really good football player yet not a combine athlete).
If you're a Mara, you're born into NFL football. Around coaches, players all your life. Maybe you learn something about the sport. Just because you're born a Mara doesn't mean you *can't* make sound football decisions.
Lots of guys involved in the personnel decision process including coaches, I think. Lots of opinions and voices...
Whose to say who is accountable?
You mean besides decades of experience in the football business?
How do you think Gettleman became a football mind? By learning. Somehow it's impossible for Chris Mara or even John to have done the same thing? They've been surrounded by it and doing the work their whole lives.
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what football credentials do the Mara's have? Why are they casting votes in the draft room? As the football minds like Gettleman's leave, what's left? Look at the roster, these guys are the reason the roster sucks.
You mean besides decades of experience in the football business?
How do you think Gettleman became a football mind? By learning. Somehow it's impossible for Chris Mara or even John to have done the same thing? They've been surrounded by it and doing the work their whole lives.
Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones have been in the football business for more than a decade too. Want owners casting votes in the draft room? Apparently
If you're a Mara, you're born into NFL football. Around coaches, players all your life. Maybe you learn something about the sport. Just because you're born a Mara doesn't mean you *can't* make sound football decisions.
Lots of guys involved in the personnel decision process including coaches, I think. Lots of opinions and voices...
Whose to say who is accountable?
Wasn't Wellington Mara born into football too? He needed the NFL to step on an appoint George Young b/c the organization was so dysfunctional. Which Giants fans didn't see the OL a train wreck prior to 2013 yet John Mara claimed "nobody saw this coming". More and more football minds like Gettleman are not in the draft room and it shows.
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In comment 11988050 Giants2012 said:
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what football credentials do the Mara's have? Why are they casting votes in the draft room? As the football minds like Gettleman's leave, what's left? Look at the roster, these guys are the reason the roster sucks.
You mean besides decades of experience in the football business?
How do you think Gettleman became a football mind? By learning. Somehow it's impossible for Chris Mara or even John to have done the same thing? They've been surrounded by it and doing the work their whole lives.
Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones have been in the football business for more than a decade too. Want owners casting votes in the draft room? Apparently
Do you not even see what you're suggesting here?
So, nobody can learn to do something well unless you're magically born with a "football mind"?
But John's been the owner the whole way through - unless his influence or his impact have changed, it's hard to see how he's responsible for any of this (don't confuse responsible with accountable; he's the owner, and ultimately accountable for all of it).
Before things went south, Chris Mara was supposedly getting some play outside the org. How much of it was just nice PR story versus how much legitimate interest, we can't possibly know.