Here is how I am thinking of it...
You have some very valid points my friend!
Either,
A) You believe the front office can successfully rebuild the team around Eli within a window where we can still be a contender with him under center
or..
B) You believe it will take longer than just a year or two to completely turn it around and build a sustainable winner again and by the time that happens, Eli will either no longer be playing or just will not be good enough.
Remember, he is going to be 34 years old just after this season ends and will be nearing 35 at the start of the next one. Unless you believe Eli is still going to be a championship caliber QB at age 36 or 37 (and I don't), it is hard to envision a scenario where this team can make another run.
Which is why I'd put myself in the camp of "B" if I had to choose.
This does not mean I want Eli out the door or want to dump him. I just have a hard time believing this team will be able to fix all of its issues in time to be a Championship caliber team once more with Eli still able to lead us.
Right now, I DO think Eli is still good enough to win with. I'm just not sure how much longer he will be and so, I think it would be a better franchise move to gain premium picks to expedite the rebuild process.
That's just how I look at it. I'm not saying it's right.
RE: Yes, but it seems that Eli is well above criticism around here
He's certainly not our biggest problem, but it'd be nice to see some fans put accountability on him for a change.
Accountability? He has had plenty of it from all fans alike. Personally, I think he was 100% responsible for all 5 picks and the single biggest reason we lost on Sunday. But, that doesn't mean I want to cut, trade, or bench him.
The 'AR scenario' happened once perhaps to that degree
but smart teams are constantly trying to do something similar. The Pats have a lot of holes on their team where they could use young talent. Was it crazy, in your view, to use a 2nd rounder on a QB? After all, Brady is an elite QB who likely has a few years left. Do you really think "well Eli is 3 1/2 years younger" is justification for eschewing a similar strategy?
If the Giants think Winston in the 1st or Cook in the 2nd is good value, are they crazy to take them merely because "Eli's the QB for the next 5 years. Not worth it"? Recipe for another Dave Brown era.
You laugh at drafting Winston. If it's because of character concerns, fine. I'm with you, it's worrisome. But if it's just because "eh we have Eli", it's a bad way to run a franchise.
but smart teams are constantly trying to do something similar. The Pats have a lot of holes on their team where they could use young talent. Was it crazy, in your view, to use a 2nd rounder on a QB? After all, Brady is an elite QB who likely has a few years left. Do you really think "well Eli is 3 1/2 years younger" is justification for eschewing a similar strategy?
If the Giants think Winston in the 1st or Cook in the 2nd is good value, are they crazy to take them merely because "Eli's the QB for the next 5 years. Not worth it"? Recipe for another Dave Brown era.
You laugh at drafting Winston. If it's because of character concerns, fine. I'm with you, it's worrisome. But if it's just because "eh we have Eli", it's a bad way to run a franchise.
Can I ask you a question in response to your question? Where's Ryan Mallett these days? How about Matt Cassel? What makes you think Garapolo is going to be any different?
And really, for as good as they are, the Patriots are historically bad drafters under Belichick and company.
without a QB eating such a huge portion of the cap, particularly when it's a guy who is overpaid in the first place.
Are you saying Eli is overpaid and should be gone?
I am not convinced this is a complete rebuild either. Some of our weaknesses have been addressed, but injuries altered the plan. For example, we added a ton of talent and depth at CB, only to have injuries force us to play our #5, #6 and beyond CBs in significant time and downs. Another example is the OL. We drafted Pugh last year and he had a solid rookie year. If the theory is correct that his arm injury is holding him back this year, then we still have a pretty good RT. Beatty has had a bounce back year to the point where he is solid, even if not spectacular. Then we drafted Richburg this year. For the most part, he has had a pretty good rookie year and should be at his natural OC position by next year the latest. That could already lead to an improved OL next year.
I think with another wise draft and key veterans on the OL and some combination of WR, RB, (both for depth), DE, LB, and S this is still a team that can contend. Yes, that is a long list, but not an impossible one to fill through both avenues.
without a QB eating such a huge portion of the cap, particularly when it's a guy who is overpaid in the first place.
Have any examples of this theory?
Sure - Seattle(Wilson is making $817K), San Francisco (Kaepernick is making $3.7 mil), Indianapolis (Luck is making $2.4mil), Philadelphia(Foles is making $770K).
you can also rebuild with compotent draft choice. If Reese hit grand slams with some of the picks like Sherman, Wagner, Bowman, among other 3rd-7th round draft choice..... you can rebuild with a 20 million dollar QB.
The problem is if we get rid of Eli, we still have Reese which is the bigger problem.
Which makes my point. It's very difficult to find a quality starting QB in the NFL. So you likely need to take multiple stabs. And it's better to do so while you're not desperate (the Packers in 05, the Pats last year, the Giants now), instead of when you're cycling between Brown, Kanell, and Graham.
Winston is just the example du jour. Maybe the Giants FO think he'll bust. If so, you obviously pass. If not, it'd be a smart pick. But the idea is, you never have to force it like you're the Titans with Jake Locker.
I don't disagree with that. But, I also don't think he should be gone and I do think he is still a QB you can build another run around. He has a few years of his prime left before we can reasonably expect a decline.
Which makes my point. It's very difficult to find a quality starting QB in the NFL. So you likely need to take multiple stabs. And it's better to do so while you're not desperate (the Packers in 05, the Pats last year, the Giants now), instead of when you're cycling between Brown, Kanell, and Graham.
Winston is just the example du jour. Maybe the Giants FO think he'll bust. If so, you obviously pass. If not, it'd be a smart pick. But the idea is, you never have to force it like you're the Titans with Jake Locker.
Okay, but now we're a long ways away from trading Eli for a first round pick... Now we're talking looking replacements and extending him.
Russell Wilson and Andrew Luck are still on their rookie contracts. And of the three, I'd only take Luck. You honestly will say you'll take Wilson and CK (misspelled his name once and thats enough) over Eli? And if so do you think they'd do half as well learning a new offense in one season? Name a reciever CK or RW has made better or gotten a contract. Eli did it with Boss, Plaxico, Smith, The Black Unicorn, Mario Manningham and the list goes on.....
oh give me a fucking break on that "made receivers better" horseshit
You cannot simultaneously claim that one and then blame all of his recent struggles on lousy receivers. He sure as hell isn't making anyone better these days. Give the WRs some credit, because guys like Smith, Cruz, Nicks, Plax, Manningham and Bennett were pretty damned good.
he's worth more than 1 and you will need more than that.
I'd talk to a team like the Jets who a franchise QB could make them instantly competitive. An OL who can protect him a few weapons and lots of cap room. and he wouldn't have to uproot his family.
no one is taking an inconsistent aging QB with a big contract who will need a new one for a #1 pick.. They would simply draft a QB who will come much cheaper.
he's worth more than 1 and you will need more than that.
I'd talk to a team like the Jets who a franchise QB could make them instantly competitive. An OL who can protect him a few weapons and lots of cap room. and he wouldn't have to uproot his family.
Yeah, I'm sure if the Giants were going to trade Eli, they'd trade him to the fucking Jets.
This place..
San Fran made the NFC Championship the year before
I can see the Giants letting his contract run out and him moving in via FA. All things remaining the same, I'd prefer he remain our QB through the end of his career.
But very little is likely to remain the same after this season.
Eli turns shit WR's into gold, but when things aren't going well, the blame magically shifts towards everybody else but the QB.
Thats false. Even as Eli's adament supporter there was no doubt that guys like Burress, Toomer, Smith, Cruz, Nicks, Manningham played a huge role in our victories. Especially in 2011 with the YAC capabilities.
But the last two years our skilled positions have been some of the worse in the NFL. OBJ gives us semblance of hope. Hopefully Cruz can get back to 2012. But guys like RR, Parker, Jerrigan arent future players.
Thats why taking Cooper in the first round has to be a possibility.
But there are people who say, as Britt has often in the past and that guy just did in this thread, that the Giants' receivers weren't that great and Eli made them look a lot better than they actually were.
But there are people who say, as Britt has often in the past and that guy just did in this thread, that the Giants' receivers weren't that great and Eli made them look a lot better than they actually were.
Well I think its a two way street. Look at guys like Brady, Rodgers, Peyton.... they certainly made their WRs into stars and excellent players - but those players were talented as well and thats why they make it look so easy.
I mean you ever see Nelson, Demaryius and Gronk so wide open and be like "how the fuck is he is so open". Seeing Eli/Cruz/Nicks on the same page in 2011, especially in the playoffs was the best offensive firepower Ive seen in my lifetime as a Giants fan. I want to see it again, and soon.
Buffalo,Tennessee and probably a few other teams would give up far more than a single #1 pick to get a franchise QB that has won 2 SBs with 5 years left. If you told me I could get Mariota plus another #1, I might think about it, but would probably demand more.
Buffalo,Tennessee and probably a few other teams would give up far more than a single #1 pick to get a franchise QB that has won 2 SBs with 5 years left. If you told me I could get Mariota plus another #1, I might think about it, but would probably demand more.
Buffalo,Tennessee and probably a few other teams would give up far more than a single #1 pick to get a franchise QB that has won 2 SBs with 5 years left. If you told me I could get Mariota plus another #1, I might think about it, but would probably demand more.
Buffalo,Tennessee and probably a few other teams would give up far more than a single #1 pick to get a franchise QB that has won 2 SBs with 5 years left. If you told me I could get Mariota plus another #1, I might think about it, but would probably demand more.
starters ,Umm not even close .
I in no way shape or form want Jameis Winston .
The Guy is a piece of crap . I din;t think anyone
could top Cam Newtons act .Who will never win the
big one . IMO
to have Danny Kannell? Dave Brown? Fucking Tommy Maddox? You can call Eli useless to the franchise right now but what he gives you is a chance to win and stability every Sunday. You have a guy that plays every snap, doesn't cause any issues in the locker room/media. You know what you get.
And how much longer does Eli give us that relative to how long it will take to put another SB contending caliber roster around him?
Eli isn't in his 20's anymore, that's the problem. And he's not going to be around forever.
I love the guy as much as anyone and I'd love to see him win another one here before he finally hangs them up. I just think this roster has too many holes and it's going to take a couple years to fill them if we're lucky. By then, is Eli going to still have it? Odds aren't good.
Exactly! This team is far removed from Eli's glory days. While not impossible. Another super bowl run is highly unlikely. I wouldn't trade him for A first pick alone. Have to throw in at least a third and maybe a pick the following season as well.
Andrew Luck is not in this draft and even if he was, it is easy to say that now, because we know what Andrew Luck has done in this league. If you dump Eli your talking about using the the aquired pick for a QB. There is no guarantee's in the draft especially at QB. For every Andrew Luck there is a 20 QB's you never heard of or guys that didn't do much of anything in the NFL. Its easy to say dump Eli, but you damn well better have a good back up plan, because if you get a bust at QB, your going to suck for awhile.
Others are say we are a ways away from competing again. I don't' see it. Often you see new coaches come in and turn franchises around or teams come out of nowhere. With the right moves I don't' see any reason we couldn't be a solid team next year.
I don't understand why everyone thinks we are that far off?
Outside of Philly and Detroit week one, we have been in every game we lost and had a chance to win most. We did that despite a ton of injuries and a lot of bad play. There is no reason we couldn't turn it around with relative health and some decent pick ups via the draft/FA.
The Pat's for example and drafting young QB's. Frankly I think they are a horrible example to bring up. They keep trading away all their picks and drafting Brady's replacement when they can still win with him. If they spent some of those picks on players instead of trying to get cute all the time I think they would of won another SB by now.
unless you have one as good on the team or you are certain of getting one the same year you trade him. As long as you have Eli, you have a shot at the Lombardi provided you surround him with acceptable (not great, just acceptable) talent.
If anyone thinks that losing Eli and adding one pick for the crap shoot of the draft improves this team they are nuts. That would be a complete desperation move towards a longer downward spiral. The fastest way to improve this team is to build a strong OL and then give Eli another weapon or two.
I think some fans forget just how long it often can take to replace a franchise QB.
If Houston was offered enough they'd have to trade JJ Watt, LT in his prime would have been traded if someone was willing to overpay. I am NOT saying those guys were ever going to be on or will ever be in the market BUT if you are approached you have to listen. Anyway a number 1 pick for your franchise QB with 5 productive years left is way too low
#2: Grabbing a vet QB (Or starting Nassib)
#3: Drafting Winston
Holy shit. I may have a stroke.
Have any examples of this theory?
You have some very valid points my friend!
Either,
A) You believe the front office can successfully rebuild the team around Eli within a window where we can still be a contender with him under center
or..
B) You believe it will take longer than just a year or two to completely turn it around and build a sustainable winner again and by the time that happens, Eli will either no longer be playing or just will not be good enough.
Remember, he is going to be 34 years old just after this season ends and will be nearing 35 at the start of the next one. Unless you believe Eli is still going to be a championship caliber QB at age 36 or 37 (and I don't), it is hard to envision a scenario where this team can make another run.
Which is why I'd put myself in the camp of "B" if I had to choose.
This does not mean I want Eli out the door or want to dump him. I just have a hard time believing this team will be able to fix all of its issues in time to be a Championship caliber team once more with Eli still able to lead us.
Right now, I DO think Eli is still good enough to win with. I'm just not sure how much longer he will be and so, I think it would be a better franchise move to gain premium picks to expedite the rebuild process.
That's just how I look at it. I'm not saying it's right.
Accountability? He has had plenty of it from all fans alike. Personally, I think he was 100% responsible for all 5 picks and the single biggest reason we lost on Sunday. But, that doesn't mean I want to cut, trade, or bench him.
If the Giants think Winston in the 1st or Cook in the 2nd is good value, are they crazy to take them merely because "Eli's the QB for the next 5 years. Not worth it"? Recipe for another Dave Brown era.
You laugh at drafting Winston. If it's because of character concerns, fine. I'm with you, it's worrisome. But if it's just because "eh we have Eli", it's a bad way to run a franchise.
If the Giants think Winston in the 1st or Cook in the 2nd is good value, are they crazy to take them merely because "Eli's the QB for the next 5 years. Not worth it"? Recipe for another Dave Brown era.
You laugh at drafting Winston. If it's because of character concerns, fine. I'm with you, it's worrisome. But if it's just because "eh we have Eli", it's a bad way to run a franchise.
Can I ask you a question in response to your question? Where's Ryan Mallett these days? How about Matt Cassel? What makes you think Garapolo is going to be any different?
And really, for as good as they are, the Patriots are historically bad drafters under Belichick and company.
Are you saying Eli is overpaid and should be gone?
I am not convinced this is a complete rebuild either. Some of our weaknesses have been addressed, but injuries altered the plan. For example, we added a ton of talent and depth at CB, only to have injuries force us to play our #5, #6 and beyond CBs in significant time and downs. Another example is the OL. We drafted Pugh last year and he had a solid rookie year. If the theory is correct that his arm injury is holding him back this year, then we still have a pretty good RT. Beatty has had a bounce back year to the point where he is solid, even if not spectacular. Then we drafted Richburg this year. For the most part, he has had a pretty good rookie year and should be at his natural OC position by next year the latest. That could already lead to an improved OL next year.
I think with another wise draft and key veterans on the OL and some combination of WR, RB, (both for depth), DE, LB, and S this is still a team that can contend. Yes, that is a long list, but not an impossible one to fill through both avenues.
Quote:
without a QB eating such a huge portion of the cap, particularly when it's a guy who is overpaid in the first place.
Have any examples of this theory?
Sure - Seattle(Wilson is making $817K), San Francisco (Kaepernick is making $3.7 mil), Indianapolis (Luck is making $2.4mil), Philadelphia(Foles is making $770K).
Eli is making $20 mil.
The problem is if we get rid of Eli, we still have Reese which is the bigger problem.
Which makes my point. It's very difficult to find a quality starting QB in the NFL. So you likely need to take multiple stabs. And it's better to do so while you're not desperate (the Packers in 05, the Pats last year, the Giants now), instead of when you're cycling between Brown, Kanell, and Graham.
Winston is just the example du jour. Maybe the Giants FO think he'll bust. If so, you obviously pass. If not, it'd be a smart pick. But the idea is, you never have to force it like you're the Titans with Jake Locker.
Which makes my point. It's very difficult to find a quality starting QB in the NFL. So you likely need to take multiple stabs. And it's better to do so while you're not desperate (the Packers in 05, the Pats last year, the Giants now), instead of when you're cycling between Brown, Kanell, and Graham.
Winston is just the example du jour. Maybe the Giants FO think he'll bust. If so, you obviously pass. If not, it'd be a smart pick. But the idea is, you never have to force it like you're the Titans with Jake Locker.
Okay, but now we're a long ways away from trading Eli for a first round pick... Now we're talking looking replacements and extending him.
They weren't "rebuilding" like we are.
I'd talk to a team like the Jets who a franchise QB could make them instantly competitive. An OL who can protect him a few weapons and lots of cap room. and he wouldn't have to uproot his family.
I'd talk to a team like the Jets who a franchise QB could make them instantly competitive. An OL who can protect him a few weapons and lots of cap room. and he wouldn't have to uproot his family.
Yeah, I'm sure if the Giants were going to trade Eli, they'd trade him to the fucking Jets.
This place..
But very little is likely to remain the same after this season.
Thats false. Even as Eli's adament supporter there was no doubt that guys like Burress, Toomer, Smith, Cruz, Nicks, Manningham played a huge role in our victories. Especially in 2011 with the YAC capabilities.
But the last two years our skilled positions have been some of the worse in the NFL. OBJ gives us semblance of hope. Hopefully Cruz can get back to 2012. But guys like RR, Parker, Jerrigan arent future players.
Thats why taking Cooper in the first round has to be a possibility.
The point is that Eli takes up a massive amount of the Giants' cap, an amount that far exceeds his actual production.
Well I think its a two way street. Look at guys like Brady, Rodgers, Peyton.... they certainly made their WRs into stars and excellent players - but those players were talented as well and thats why they make it look so easy.
I mean you ever see Nelson, Demaryius and Gronk so wide open and be like "how the fuck is he is so open". Seeing Eli/Cruz/Nicks on the same page in 2011, especially in the playoffs was the best offensive firepower Ive seen in my lifetime as a Giants fan. I want to see it again, and soon.
can always replace a stiff like ELi, take the number 1 pick
Quote:
Buffalo,Tennessee and probably a few other teams would give up far more than a single #1 pick to get a franchise QB that has won 2 SBs with 5 years left. If you told me I could get Mariota plus another #1, I might think about it, but would probably demand more.
This I would consider.
Get your own fuckin' ideas?
Quote:
In comment 11987222 bob in tx said:
Quote:
Buffalo,Tennessee and probably a few other teams would give up far more than a single #1 pick to get a franchise QB that has won 2 SBs with 5 years left. If you told me I could get Mariota plus another #1, I might think about it, but would probably demand more.
This I would consider.
Get your own fuckin' ideas?
I in no way shape or form want Jameis Winston .
The Guy is a piece of crap . I din;t think anyone
could top Cam Newtons act .Who will never win the
big one . IMO
Quote:
to have Danny Kannell? Dave Brown? Fucking Tommy Maddox? You can call Eli useless to the franchise right now but what he gives you is a chance to win and stability every Sunday. You have a guy that plays every snap, doesn't cause any issues in the locker room/media. You know what you get.
And how much longer does Eli give us that relative to how long it will take to put another SB contending caliber roster around him?
Eli isn't in his 20's anymore, that's the problem. And he's not going to be around forever.
I love the guy as much as anyone and I'd love to see him win another one here before he finally hangs them up. I just think this roster has too many holes and it's going to take a couple years to fill them if we're lucky. By then, is Eli going to still have it? Odds aren't good.
Exactly! This team is far removed from Eli's glory days. While not impossible. Another super bowl run is highly unlikely. I wouldn't trade him for A first pick alone. Have to throw in at least a third and maybe a pick the following season as well.
More like this post.
Andrew Luck is not in this draft and even if he was, it is easy to say that now, because we know what Andrew Luck has done in this league. If you dump Eli your talking about using the the aquired pick for a QB. There is no guarantee's in the draft especially at QB. For every Andrew Luck there is a 20 QB's you never heard of or guys that didn't do much of anything in the NFL. Its easy to say dump Eli, but you damn well better have a good back up plan, because if you get a bust at QB, your going to suck for awhile.
Others are say we are a ways away from competing again. I don't' see it. Often you see new coaches come in and turn franchises around or teams come out of nowhere. With the right moves I don't' see any reason we couldn't be a solid team next year.
I think some fans forget just how long it often can take to replace a franchise QB.
The Giants won't be truly good until they get a huge talent infusion. Draft choices are needed, not guys on the wrong side of the 33.
So three years later, that pick will be gone. Eli might also be gone, but he is a better player over that three years than a rookie.