maybe. Hopefully. The point is you plan beyond him. If you think an Aaron Rodgers or even close to one is on the board, you don't pass on him merely because "barring injury", you expect Eli to be starting until 2020. That's asking for another decade of Kent Grahams.
The Pats just used a high pick on Garoppolo. Do they hope and expect Brady to start for at least 3 more years? I'm sure. They also know how to run a football franchise.
--
Hades: agreed Winston/Mari are probably not Rodgers. But 23 teams didn't think Rodgers was Rodgers back in 05. The Giants are and will be in a similar boat when they have to replace Eli because as long as he is QB they probably will not pick top 5. So they need to be smart about replacing him. It might take a couple tries (Nassib maybe stab 1). But better to do so while he's still playing.
Brett Favre was 35 going on 36 when Rodgers was drafted.
Tom Brady was 36 going on 37.
Eli is 33 going on 34.
The title of this thread was not "groom Eli's replacement", it was would you trade him for a top ten pick.
So which argument are you trying to make?
A large portion of BBI needs to come to grips with the fact that he's resigning with us for another four or five years. Likely this offseason. Gun to your head, who's the Giants QB in two years?
Now that that's out of the way... I'm not even thinking about the Giants without Eli right now because it's not in the near future. I'll wait another season or two, then see where we're at. People tend to cherry pick guys like Rodgers and Luck to make their points, as if these guys are common. Not every guy taken to groom is going to be Rodgers, or even Russell Wilson. There are a lot more Kirk Cousins, Ryan Mallets, and AJ Feeleys than there are those guys.
Secondly, just getting a top ten pick doesn't guarantee you squat. For every Andrew Luck there are a ton more Bob Griffins, Ryan Leafs, Mark Sanchezs, etc...
Consistency is king in the NFL.
As blood thirsty as the NY Media and National Media is, do you find it peculiar that none of them are really calling for Eli's head, or blaming him for the teams woes?
In fact, when looking at other team's message boards, I've seen more than a few posts that reference NYG staying the course with Eli, as a model of consistency for what their franchise should do.
Ironically, there is very little talk of the Giants getting rid of Eli Manning, outside of Giants fans.
but should he at least have to win one title before he is lofted into the top tier of QB's. Or as I have read on this site mentioned as a future hall of famer.
Right about this franchise going forward. This post and so many others that overreact to the present is why we are called fanatics. Build an offensive line and then let s see if Giants should get rid of a franchise quarterback with 5 to 6 years of good play left.
a first round pick for an average qb in his mid 30s?
Of course you take it. There is nothing this offense demands that Nassim can't do. With 2 first round picks and the bulk of Eli's salary off the books it wouldn't be hard to turn things around
agreed, but it's one possible path and not an impossibility (Rams were mentioned). Grab a vet or start Nassib if they think he can play, then groom a Winston if they think he's got the goods. It's probably not the route I would take, but it's not insane to consider it. You seem to think it is. Maybe I'm mis-reading.
Gun to my head? Yes, Manning. And I wouldn't have a problem with that (despite his at times maddening play). I'm saying that at this point - with him well over 30 - I would hope the Giants are actively considering life beyond him. Because that's what good teams do. If they think someone potentially better is on the board, they should jump on it.
Did you think the selection of AR was a good idea at the time? Not in hindsight knowing how good he is, I mean at the time. Favre was still playing really solid football. 2 years later he was a Tynes kick away from another SB appearance.
a 2015 1st and 3rd, and 2016 1st and 5th....and he's all broken in.....he doesn't make bad throws or make poor decisions.....he's pro ready.....running and sliding, you have to work on....oh, an occasional fumble here and there, too....
Here is how I am thinking of it...
You have some very valid points my friend!
Either,
A) You believe the front office can successfully rebuild the team around Eli within a window where we can still be a contender with him under center
or..
B) You believe it will take longer than just a year or two to completely turn it around and build a sustainable winner again and by the time that happens, Eli will either no longer be playing or just will not be good enough.
Remember, he is going to be 34 years old just after this season ends and will be nearing 35 at the start of the next one. Unless you believe Eli is still going to be a championship caliber QB at age 36 or 37 (and I don't), it is hard to envision a scenario where this team can make another run.
Which is why I'd put myself in the camp of "B" if I had to choose.
This does not mean I want Eli out the door or want to dump him. I just have a hard time believing this team will be able to fix all of its issues in time to be a Championship caliber team once more with Eli still able to lead us.
Right now, I DO think Eli is still good enough to win with. I'm just not sure how much longer he will be and so, I think it would be a better franchise move to gain premium picks to expedite the rebuild process.
That's just how I look at it. I'm not saying it's right.
RE: Yes, but it seems that Eli is well above criticism around here
He's certainly not our biggest problem, but it'd be nice to see some fans put accountability on him for a change.
Accountability? He has had plenty of it from all fans alike. Personally, I think he was 100% responsible for all 5 picks and the single biggest reason we lost on Sunday. But, that doesn't mean I want to cut, trade, or bench him.
The 'AR scenario' happened once perhaps to that degree
but smart teams are constantly trying to do something similar. The Pats have a lot of holes on their team where they could use young talent. Was it crazy, in your view, to use a 2nd rounder on a QB? After all, Brady is an elite QB who likely has a few years left. Do you really think "well Eli is 3 1/2 years younger" is justification for eschewing a similar strategy?
If the Giants think Winston in the 1st or Cook in the 2nd is good value, are they crazy to take them merely because "Eli's the QB for the next 5 years. Not worth it"? Recipe for another Dave Brown era.
You laugh at drafting Winston. If it's because of character concerns, fine. I'm with you, it's worrisome. But if it's just because "eh we have Eli", it's a bad way to run a franchise.
but smart teams are constantly trying to do something similar. The Pats have a lot of holes on their team where they could use young talent. Was it crazy, in your view, to use a 2nd rounder on a QB? After all, Brady is an elite QB who likely has a few years left. Do you really think "well Eli is 3 1/2 years younger" is justification for eschewing a similar strategy?
If the Giants think Winston in the 1st or Cook in the 2nd is good value, are they crazy to take them merely because "Eli's the QB for the next 5 years. Not worth it"? Recipe for another Dave Brown era.
You laugh at drafting Winston. If it's because of character concerns, fine. I'm with you, it's worrisome. But if it's just because "eh we have Eli", it's a bad way to run a franchise.
Can I ask you a question in response to your question? Where's Ryan Mallett these days? How about Matt Cassel? What makes you think Garapolo is going to be any different?
And really, for as good as they are, the Patriots are historically bad drafters under Belichick and company.
without a QB eating such a huge portion of the cap, particularly when it's a guy who is overpaid in the first place.
Are you saying Eli is overpaid and should be gone?
I am not convinced this is a complete rebuild either. Some of our weaknesses have been addressed, but injuries altered the plan. For example, we added a ton of talent and depth at CB, only to have injuries force us to play our #5, #6 and beyond CBs in significant time and downs. Another example is the OL. We drafted Pugh last year and he had a solid rookie year. If the theory is correct that his arm injury is holding him back this year, then we still have a pretty good RT. Beatty has had a bounce back year to the point where he is solid, even if not spectacular. Then we drafted Richburg this year. For the most part, he has had a pretty good rookie year and should be at his natural OC position by next year the latest. That could already lead to an improved OL next year.
I think with another wise draft and key veterans on the OL and some combination of WR, RB, (both for depth), DE, LB, and S this is still a team that can contend. Yes, that is a long list, but not an impossible one to fill through both avenues.
without a QB eating such a huge portion of the cap, particularly when it's a guy who is overpaid in the first place.
Have any examples of this theory?
Sure - Seattle(Wilson is making $817K), San Francisco (Kaepernick is making $3.7 mil), Indianapolis (Luck is making $2.4mil), Philadelphia(Foles is making $770K).
you can also rebuild with compotent draft choice. If Reese hit grand slams with some of the picks like Sherman, Wagner, Bowman, among other 3rd-7th round draft choice..... you can rebuild with a 20 million dollar QB.
The problem is if we get rid of Eli, we still have Reese which is the bigger problem.
Which makes my point. It's very difficult to find a quality starting QB in the NFL. So you likely need to take multiple stabs. And it's better to do so while you're not desperate (the Packers in 05, the Pats last year, the Giants now), instead of when you're cycling between Brown, Kanell, and Graham.
Winston is just the example du jour. Maybe the Giants FO think he'll bust. If so, you obviously pass. If not, it'd be a smart pick. But the idea is, you never have to force it like you're the Titans with Jake Locker.
I don't disagree with that. But, I also don't think he should be gone and I do think he is still a QB you can build another run around. He has a few years of his prime left before we can reasonably expect a decline.
Which makes my point. It's very difficult to find a quality starting QB in the NFL. So you likely need to take multiple stabs. And it's better to do so while you're not desperate (the Packers in 05, the Pats last year, the Giants now), instead of when you're cycling between Brown, Kanell, and Graham.
Winston is just the example du jour. Maybe the Giants FO think he'll bust. If so, you obviously pass. If not, it'd be a smart pick. But the idea is, you never have to force it like you're the Titans with Jake Locker.
Okay, but now we're a long ways away from trading Eli for a first round pick... Now we're talking looking replacements and extending him.
Russell Wilson and Andrew Luck are still on their rookie contracts. And of the three, I'd only take Luck. You honestly will say you'll take Wilson and CK (misspelled his name once and thats enough) over Eli? And if so do you think they'd do half as well learning a new offense in one season? Name a reciever CK or RW has made better or gotten a contract. Eli did it with Boss, Plaxico, Smith, The Black Unicorn, Mario Manningham and the list goes on.....
oh give me a fucking break on that "made receivers better" horseshit
You cannot simultaneously claim that one and then blame all of his recent struggles on lousy receivers. He sure as hell isn't making anyone better these days. Give the WRs some credit, because guys like Smith, Cruz, Nicks, Plax, Manningham and Bennett were pretty damned good.
he's worth more than 1 and you will need more than that.
I'd talk to a team like the Jets who a franchise QB could make them instantly competitive. An OL who can protect him a few weapons and lots of cap room. and he wouldn't have to uproot his family.
no one is taking an inconsistent aging QB with a big contract who will need a new one for a #1 pick.. They would simply draft a QB who will come much cheaper.
he's worth more than 1 and you will need more than that.
I'd talk to a team like the Jets who a franchise QB could make them instantly competitive. An OL who can protect him a few weapons and lots of cap room. and he wouldn't have to uproot his family.
Yeah, I'm sure if the Giants were going to trade Eli, they'd trade him to the fucking Jets.
This place..
San Fran made the NFC Championship the year before
I can see the Giants letting his contract run out and him moving in via FA. All things remaining the same, I'd prefer he remain our QB through the end of his career.
But very little is likely to remain the same after this season.
Eli turns shit WR's into gold, but when things aren't going well, the blame magically shifts towards everybody else but the QB.
Thats false. Even as Eli's adament supporter there was no doubt that guys like Burress, Toomer, Smith, Cruz, Nicks, Manningham played a huge role in our victories. Especially in 2011 with the YAC capabilities.
But the last two years our skilled positions have been some of the worse in the NFL. OBJ gives us semblance of hope. Hopefully Cruz can get back to 2012. But guys like RR, Parker, Jerrigan arent future players.
Thats why taking Cooper in the first round has to be a possibility.
The Pats just used a high pick on Garoppolo. Do they hope and expect Brady to start for at least 3 more years? I'm sure. They also know how to run a football franchise.
--
Hades: agreed Winston/Mari are probably not Rodgers. But 23 teams didn't think Rodgers was Rodgers back in 05. The Giants are and will be in a similar boat when they have to replace Eli because as long as he is QB they probably will not pick top 5. So they need to be smart about replacing him. It might take a couple tries (Nassib maybe stab 1). But better to do so while he's still playing.
Brett Favre was 35 going on 36 when Rodgers was drafted.
Tom Brady was 36 going on 37.
Eli is 33 going on 34.
The title of this thread was not "groom Eli's replacement", it was would you trade him for a top ten pick.
So which argument are you trying to make?
A large portion of BBI needs to come to grips with the fact that he's resigning with us for another four or five years. Likely this offseason. Gun to your head, who's the Giants QB in two years?
Now that that's out of the way... I'm not even thinking about the Giants without Eli right now because it's not in the near future. I'll wait another season or two, then see where we're at. People tend to cherry pick guys like Rodgers and Luck to make their points, as if these guys are common. Not every guy taken to groom is going to be Rodgers, or even Russell Wilson. There are a lot more Kirk Cousins, Ryan Mallets, and AJ Feeleys than there are those guys.
Secondly, just getting a top ten pick doesn't guarantee you squat. For every Andrew Luck there are a ton more Bob Griffins, Ryan Leafs, Mark Sanchezs, etc...
Consistency is king in the NFL.
As blood thirsty as the NY Media and National Media is, do you find it peculiar that none of them are really calling for Eli's head, or blaming him for the teams woes?
In fact, when looking at other team's message boards, I've seen more than a few posts that reference NYG staying the course with Eli, as a model of consistency for what their franchise should do.
Ironically, there is very little talk of the Giants getting rid of Eli Manning, outside of Giants fans.
Why is that?
I think 3 is far more likely. If that.
Not many QB who have been drafted have been the real deal in the past several seasons Luck .... who else has been drafted that is better than Eli.
Win something first. Eli has, twice.
Gun to my head? Yes, Manning. And I wouldn't have a problem with that (despite his at times maddening play). I'm saying that at this point - with him well over 30 - I would hope the Giants are actively considering life beyond him. Because that's what good teams do. If they think someone potentially better is on the board, they should jump on it.
Did you think the selection of AR was a good idea at the time? Not in hindsight knowing how good he is, I mean at the time. Favre was still playing really solid football. 2 years later he was a Tynes kick away from another SB appearance.
I'd be pretty surprised if we draft Eli's replacement this year, or even next, though.
Eli will be the QB for the foreseeable future. You're just going to have to deal with that. I'm sorry that it will be tough for some.
These hypothetical arguments are just a waste of time.
Untrue. I've been a Giants fan since 84, 20 years before Eli came along.
I also remember Phil Simms being cut too early, and he was 38!
Also, it was "pick", not "picks". One first round "pick".
You move on.
These hypothetical arguments are just a waste of time.
#2: Grabbing a vet QB (Or starting Nassib)
#3: Drafting Winston
Holy shit. I may have a stroke.
Have any examples of this theory?
You have some very valid points my friend!
Either,
A) You believe the front office can successfully rebuild the team around Eli within a window where we can still be a contender with him under center
or..
B) You believe it will take longer than just a year or two to completely turn it around and build a sustainable winner again and by the time that happens, Eli will either no longer be playing or just will not be good enough.
Remember, he is going to be 34 years old just after this season ends and will be nearing 35 at the start of the next one. Unless you believe Eli is still going to be a championship caliber QB at age 36 or 37 (and I don't), it is hard to envision a scenario where this team can make another run.
Which is why I'd put myself in the camp of "B" if I had to choose.
This does not mean I want Eli out the door or want to dump him. I just have a hard time believing this team will be able to fix all of its issues in time to be a Championship caliber team once more with Eli still able to lead us.
Right now, I DO think Eli is still good enough to win with. I'm just not sure how much longer he will be and so, I think it would be a better franchise move to gain premium picks to expedite the rebuild process.
That's just how I look at it. I'm not saying it's right.
Accountability? He has had plenty of it from all fans alike. Personally, I think he was 100% responsible for all 5 picks and the single biggest reason we lost on Sunday. But, that doesn't mean I want to cut, trade, or bench him.
If the Giants think Winston in the 1st or Cook in the 2nd is good value, are they crazy to take them merely because "Eli's the QB for the next 5 years. Not worth it"? Recipe for another Dave Brown era.
You laugh at drafting Winston. If it's because of character concerns, fine. I'm with you, it's worrisome. But if it's just because "eh we have Eli", it's a bad way to run a franchise.
If the Giants think Winston in the 1st or Cook in the 2nd is good value, are they crazy to take them merely because "Eli's the QB for the next 5 years. Not worth it"? Recipe for another Dave Brown era.
You laugh at drafting Winston. If it's because of character concerns, fine. I'm with you, it's worrisome. But if it's just because "eh we have Eli", it's a bad way to run a franchise.
Can I ask you a question in response to your question? Where's Ryan Mallett these days? How about Matt Cassel? What makes you think Garapolo is going to be any different?
And really, for as good as they are, the Patriots are historically bad drafters under Belichick and company.
Are you saying Eli is overpaid and should be gone?
I am not convinced this is a complete rebuild either. Some of our weaknesses have been addressed, but injuries altered the plan. For example, we added a ton of talent and depth at CB, only to have injuries force us to play our #5, #6 and beyond CBs in significant time and downs. Another example is the OL. We drafted Pugh last year and he had a solid rookie year. If the theory is correct that his arm injury is holding him back this year, then we still have a pretty good RT. Beatty has had a bounce back year to the point where he is solid, even if not spectacular. Then we drafted Richburg this year. For the most part, he has had a pretty good rookie year and should be at his natural OC position by next year the latest. That could already lead to an improved OL next year.
I think with another wise draft and key veterans on the OL and some combination of WR, RB, (both for depth), DE, LB, and S this is still a team that can contend. Yes, that is a long list, but not an impossible one to fill through both avenues.
Quote:
without a QB eating such a huge portion of the cap, particularly when it's a guy who is overpaid in the first place.
Have any examples of this theory?
Sure - Seattle(Wilson is making $817K), San Francisco (Kaepernick is making $3.7 mil), Indianapolis (Luck is making $2.4mil), Philadelphia(Foles is making $770K).
Eli is making $20 mil.
The problem is if we get rid of Eli, we still have Reese which is the bigger problem.
Which makes my point. It's very difficult to find a quality starting QB in the NFL. So you likely need to take multiple stabs. And it's better to do so while you're not desperate (the Packers in 05, the Pats last year, the Giants now), instead of when you're cycling between Brown, Kanell, and Graham.
Winston is just the example du jour. Maybe the Giants FO think he'll bust. If so, you obviously pass. If not, it'd be a smart pick. But the idea is, you never have to force it like you're the Titans with Jake Locker.
Which makes my point. It's very difficult to find a quality starting QB in the NFL. So you likely need to take multiple stabs. And it's better to do so while you're not desperate (the Packers in 05, the Pats last year, the Giants now), instead of when you're cycling between Brown, Kanell, and Graham.
Winston is just the example du jour. Maybe the Giants FO think he'll bust. If so, you obviously pass. If not, it'd be a smart pick. But the idea is, you never have to force it like you're the Titans with Jake Locker.
Okay, but now we're a long ways away from trading Eli for a first round pick... Now we're talking looking replacements and extending him.
They weren't "rebuilding" like we are.
I'd talk to a team like the Jets who a franchise QB could make them instantly competitive. An OL who can protect him a few weapons and lots of cap room. and he wouldn't have to uproot his family.
I'd talk to a team like the Jets who a franchise QB could make them instantly competitive. An OL who can protect him a few weapons and lots of cap room. and he wouldn't have to uproot his family.
Yeah, I'm sure if the Giants were going to trade Eli, they'd trade him to the fucking Jets.
This place..
But very little is likely to remain the same after this season.
Thats false. Even as Eli's adament supporter there was no doubt that guys like Burress, Toomer, Smith, Cruz, Nicks, Manningham played a huge role in our victories. Especially in 2011 with the YAC capabilities.
But the last two years our skilled positions have been some of the worse in the NFL. OBJ gives us semblance of hope. Hopefully Cruz can get back to 2012. But guys like RR, Parker, Jerrigan arent future players.
Thats why taking Cooper in the first round has to be a possibility.