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Coughlin's body of work

chrispisano66 : 11/19/2014 1:13 pm
I don't envy John Mara. I personally think love Tom Coughlin and always will. Everything Francesa said yesterday about protecting him from outside criticism and honoring him when the time comes is absolutely true. However, I think the problem ownership has is that TC has coached this team to EXTREMELY high points and EXTREMELY low points. For such a consistent hard-worker, the results in the TC era have been anything but consistent. You can't just "take out" the 2 Super Bowl titles, just like you can't "take out" his almost 2 and a half seasons of non-competitive football. There are 2 sides of the coin here which make it really difficult to know what the best move is going forward.

TC the 2-time SB Champion at his best:

-Helped re-build this team with Accorsi/Reese from the ground up in year 1 with drafting Eli
-Changed his entire philosophy on dealing with players on a personal level
-Known as one of the best in-game strategists regarding time management, preparedness, challenges, etc.
-His decision to play the last game of the season against the Pats which changed everything
-The epitome of toughness, road warriors in 07, winning all those road playoff games in 07 and 11
-The Spagnuolo hire
-Motivational, Col. Gadsen in 07, getting inside Tuck's head in 11

TC teams underachieving at his worst:

-Chronic 2nd half in-season collapses
-Hufnagel, Sheridan, Fewell, Quinn
-Non-competitive blowout losses (lately)
-Matt Dodge
-No hands team against Eagles in 2010
-His handling of the offensive line i.e. the re-insertion of O'Hara and Diehl in 2010 and 2012
-Total offensive malfunction after injury
-This season only, really poor replay decisions, flag in his sock, Andrew Luck's knee, he seems to be a step behind where he was in the past

Does this team win a Super Bowl in 07 without him playing that final regular season game? I would bet my life they don't.

On the other hand, this team had no business whatsoever missing the playoffs in 2010 and 2012, that is directly on TC.

2006 and 2009 I think were flawed/injured teams even though they were 6-2 and 5-0 respectively.

Considering where the franchise is right now and including TC's entire body of work, this is a real crossroads for the organization. The decision on going forward with TC can be argued and supported either way.






.549 winning percentage  
oldutican : 11/19/2014 1:17 pm : link
9 winning seasons, 9 losing
I haven't seen this discussed  
TomTom : 11/19/2014 1:29 pm : link
in any other thread.
The extenuating piece here is "age"  
kinard : 11/19/2014 1:36 pm : link
... he'll be 69 when the season starts next year.

Presumably, Giants will have to make a change within the next 3 years anyway. Hasn't made the playoffs in 5 of last 6 years.
Seems like very other week that the team is non-competitive (and the other week they stink anyway).

Time is right. Make the more a year too soon (and its already "not too soon") rather than a year too late - particularly because the QB's window is closing fast (but there will still be fresh air coming in for a few years).
Please explain these 2:  
Victor in CT : 11/19/2014 1:43 pm : link
-His handling of the offensive line i.e. the re-insertion of O'Hara and Diehl in 2010 and 2012
-Total offensive malfunction after injury

Who were the 2 great OL that got benched in favor of O'Hara and Diehl? uhhhh, Thought so.

Who were the solid depth and young draft picks that
Reese drafted or signed who could step in "after injury"? same answer
Yes it's been discussed  
djm : 11/19/2014 1:54 pm : link
But it's a good post by the op. It's not an easy decision at all. I can't argue with anyone who wants coughlin gone nor do I blame anyone if they want coughlin retained.

I'm edging ever so closely to the side that wants a change. But coughlin's age has nothing to do with it in my view. Giants might need to make a change 3 years from now anyway? Based on what? Coughlin at 72 may in fact still have all the energy needed to do a good job and 3 years is an eternity in the nfl anyway.

Age shouldn't be a factor in this debate.
I don't think coughlin is 69  
djm : 11/19/2014 1:56 pm : link
Isn't he 67?

The age discussion is kind of bothersome to me.
My only knock on TC is,  
Doomster : 11/19/2014 2:00 pm : link
there were too many games during his tenure, where his teams failed to show up.....
....  
chrispisano66 : 11/19/2014 2:01 pm : link
1. Boothe and Locklear. Neither were great although Boothe went on to be a starter on the next year's SB winning team and more than held his own. If you couldnt see that Locklear was the much better option than Diehl in 2012 I dunno what to tell you. Both re-insertions hurt the team those years. Neither played well after they came back.

2. Backups struggling to grasp the TC/Gilbride system if a starter went down is well documented.
additional pros and cons to the OPs list  
Les in TO : 11/19/2014 2:02 pm : link
Pros

- his teams have come out focused and ready to play on thursday night games
- there have not been the same letdowns against backup QBs compared to under the fassel and parcells days

Cons

- the giants have been very slow starters on offense under his watch....it seems like there is a lot of read and react on offense as opposed to coming out and hitting the opponent in the mouth with a crisp drive filled with pre-scripted plays; this goes back to the championship seasons too, not just the last two years

- he will stick too long with his veterans whose physical skills have diminished over young guys who may have a more physical upside but may lack the experience

- there has been a disturbing number of mental mistakes/errors that fall on him as the head coach (see the breakdowns in coverage or the failure to stop the bleeding vs. seattle).
RE: I don't think coughlin is 69  
kinard : 11/19/2014 2:05 pm : link
In comment 11988684 djm said:
[quote] Isn't he 67?

He'll be 69 opening day kickoff 2015.

Age is a big part of the equation here, it shouldn't be "bothersome."

Historically, the franchise had a similar conundrum in 1950 with Steve Owens.
The NY Post articles constantly refer to him as a sure fire HOFer  
Psycho : 11/19/2014 2:07 pm : link
I don't see it..
RE: ....  
Victor in CT : 11/19/2014 2:20 pm : link
In comment 11988704 chrispisano66 said:
Quote:
1. Boothe and Locklear. Neither were great although Boothe went on to be a starter on the next year's SB winning team and more than held his own. If you couldnt see that Locklear was the much better option than Diehl in 2012 I dunno what to tell you. Both re-insertions hurt the team those years. Neither played well after they came back.

2. Backups struggling to grasp the TC/Gilbride system if a starter went down is well documented.


Then what is the excuse now for Brewer, Moseley, Brown, Herman? How about they all suck?

Boothe was a decent backup who had versatility. Locklear a journeyman too.
Mara gave him a one-year extension  
oipolloi : 11/19/2014 2:33 pm : link
Any time that happens to a coach, he is on notice.

IMO, Coughlin is a great leader and commander at the top. However, he is not a great offensive coach, especially in this new pass-happy era. The nfl changed and Coughlin was not able to adapt.

It should also be noted that the two SBs were won by the defense, the unit least under Coughlin's supervision. I think his big mistake was not not being hands off with the offense the way he is with the defense.

The other big thing is that Coughlin's brand of football plays better in the postseason. It's too bad he was able to adapt.
RE: .549 winning percentage  
bceagle05 : 11/19/2014 2:50 pm : link
In comment 11988573 oldutican said:
Quote:
9 winning seasons, 9 losing


That's only if you count the 8-8 seasons as losing seasons, which you conveniently are. I think year one with an expansion team is an excusable losing season, too, especially when you're in the conference title game in year two.
Correction:  
bceagle05 : 11/19/2014 3:07 pm : link
By my count, it's 10 winning seasons, 6 losing seasons (soon to be 7) and two 8-8s.
RE: Mara gave him a one-year extension  
rocco8112 : 11/19/2014 3:49 pm : link
In comment 11988760 oipolloi said:
Quote:
Any time that happens to a coach, he is on notice.

IMO, Coughlin is a great leader and commander at the top. However, he is not a great offensive coach, especially in this new pass-happy era. The nfl changed and Coughlin was not able to adapt.

It should also be noted that the two SBs were won by the defense, the unit least under Coughlin's supervision. I think his big mistake was not not being hands off with the offense the way he is with the defense.

The other big thing is that Coughlin's brand of football plays better in the postseason. It's too bad he was able to adapt.


Adapt? Was the NFL a passing league when the Giants won the whole damn thing in '11?

Oh, they also did that on the back of the passing game. Eli holds the NFL record for passing yards in a postseason run.

I also disagree that the Giants won championships on the back of the defense. This was certainly not the case in 2011.

The OP forgot to include Tim Lewis  
David in LA : 11/19/2014 3:53 pm : link
his entire tenure, he only hit twice on coordinators (KG and Spags...too early to tell with McAdoo).
Coughlin's clock management has always  
jsboston : 11/19/2014 6:54 pm : link
been befuddling and embarrassing. not his strong suit. He should have an assistant for this. Some of his in game decisions are confusing. (some have been named on this thread, but i could name a dozen more that have cost us).

but he does some brilliant things. the final game of the season against the Pats is the highlight. THAT was great coaching. i think the team is playing hard this year even though the personnel is bottom 1/5th of the league. we almost beat the cardinals. competed against seattle. could have beat the niners. that is great coaching. (i know, should have, would have, but really, we suck and we're still in games).

but the bottom line for me is that he is a HoF coach trying to win games when the personnel just isn't there.
RE: ....  
mattlawson : 11/19/2014 9:22 pm : link
In comment 11988704 chrispisano66 said:
Quote:
1. Boothe and Locklear. Neither were great although Boothe went on to be a starter on the next year's SB winning team and more than held his own. If you couldnt see that Locklear was the much better option than Diehl in 2012 I dunno what to tell you. Both re-insertions hurt the team those years. Neither played well after they came back.

2. Backups struggling to grasp the TC/Gilbride system if a starter went down is well documented.



100% truth. If you don't concur I don't know what to tell you. Go watch the jets.
Tom knows how to coach  
blueblood'11 : 11/20/2014 7:12 am : link
Whether he his 69 or 59. He is passionate about it and never seems beaten down by it. To me that is a huge indicator he can still endure. I honestly believe the two biggest things he needs to address if they do bring him back is Jerry Reese has to put all is efforts into fortifying the offensive line and Tom has to bring in a new DC.

The money will be there. They are said to be twenty million under the cap for next year so Jerry has no excuses. I don't know who you bring in as DC but Tom has really not done a particularly good job choosing them except for Spags who put up some nice numbers the two years he ran the defense.

I know a lot of people here are pining to bring him back so we'll see. But honestly if you look at the numbers and where they ranked year in and year out with Fewell as the DC I don't they've ever even been a top twenty defense. Even in 2011.



Giants were #8 ranked defense  
aquidneck : 11/20/2014 7:16 am : link
Just last season.
To tell you the truth  
blueblood'11 : 11/20/2014 8:14 am : link
I honestly forgot about last year. Hard to believe it but you are correct. However, overall this year has been more representative of a Perry Fewell led defense during his tenure here. Too many breakdowns. Too many times out schemed by the opposition. Too many times it doesn't appear he makes the proper adjustments or it appears no adjustment is made at all.
Yes, they were #8 in yards allowed, but were they  
Victor in CT : 11/20/2014 8:37 am : link
able to get off the field when they needed to?
under Fewell  
aquidneck : 11/20/2014 8:40 am : link
Giants were #1 in 3rd down defense in 2011.

So, yeah, they can get off the field in his system.
RE: The NY Post articles constantly refer to him as a sure fire HOFer  
BlueHurricane : 11/20/2014 8:55 am : link
In comment 11988713 Psycho said:
Quote:
I don't see it..


Then you are blind. Combine what he did in Jax with what he did here and he is a sure fire hall of fame coach. Not even debatable if Parcells is a HOF coach then TC is as well as he has had as much success as Bill and did so constructing a franchise from scratch......... Literally.
RE: ....  
Essex : 11/20/2014 9:01 am : link
In comment 11988704 chrispisano66 said:
Quote:
1. Boothe and Locklear. Neither were great although Boothe went on to be a starter on the next year's SB winning team and more than held his own. If you couldnt see that Locklear was the much better option than Diehl in 2012 I dunno what to tell you. Both re-insertions hurt the team those years. Neither played well after they came back.

2. Backups struggling to grasp the TC/Gilbride system if a starter went down is well documented.


When O'Hara was out, I don't think they let up a sack! To mess with that, was crazy. Plainly, it was not one of TC's best moments.
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