NFT: Knicks vs Twolves official time to tank

quietly have lost their last 5. New York basketball is a train wreck. Knicks 3-10, Nets 4-7

In comment 11989400 nyjuggernaut said:

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that are even worth tanking for?

Okafor and Mudiay would be the only 2 I'd tank for.

they are still a million times closer to competing than the Knicks.

Lose Some More for Okafor?

Clowns for Towns...Jr.?



Yeah, but no way we catch up to the Sixers

Aren't the Knicks missing 2 starters also? (Not that it would be a big difference).

That would be devastating if true. Calderon is a big loss though, but more concerning is how long he's out with a minor calf tweak. He will probably be injury prone throughout.

and do we have to swap with someone else ??

Im sure they will go on an ok run at some point, but i feel like this whole season is going to be a mess. That said i dont think it will be bad enough to get a top 5 pick unfortunately. This early in the year its hard to root for them to lose, but if a couple months they are still horrible (im guessing they will be) it will be a lot easier to handle them being horrible.

Like i said i doubt they are so bad that they are in the bottom 5, but a top 3 pick would be so huge to go with all the cap space.

we have our pick this year.....shocking i know. God bless the NBA for not allowing teams to trade their pick every year.

Did I misread Phil Jackson when it seemed he was basically saying 'fuck 2014, we'll see you next year'?

Reading the papers and BBI, you get the impression people were hopeful for this season, and I'm not sure why. The roster is an incomplete mess (courtesy of the previous regime), and won't be fully untangled until after this season. Why wring hands over it now?

at defending the three. I can't tell and decide if it's a talent issue or a coaching issue. But it's just unacceptable how teams are getting wide open shots! And it's not just one or two players. It's the entire team!!! Including Shumpert, who refused to hustle back and close in on Martin last night.

I don't see how Calderon helps much. Offense is not that big of an issue right now. This team is awful on D and Calderon isn't going to help here.

As far as tanking, it's fine by me. At 3-10, this season is over. I don't care for making the playoffs this season with this team. Most of these players aren't in the long term plan anyway. I just don't want them to get some fluke wins here and there and end up with 33 wins, instead of 25 wins. Give yourself the best chance possible at a top 3 pick. Jahlil Okafor, Emmanuel Mudiay and Karl Anthony Towns can all start for this team right now.

In comment 11989652 jcn56 said:

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Did I misread Phil Jackson when it seemed he was basically saying 'fuck 2014, we'll see you next year'? Reading the papers and BBI, you get the impression people were hopeful for this season, and I'm not sure why. The roster is an incomplete mess (courtesy of the previous regime), and won't be fully untangled until after this season. Why wring hands over it now?

When you have a player of Melo's caliber, you're always somewhat hopeful. But MJ couldn't even do anything with the steaming pile of garbage comprising the rest of the roster.

thinking you might at least be competitive and being 3-10 and looking horrid. I dont think anyone was thinking championship this year, but i figured this team could fight for a playoff spot. Instead they have looked like one of the worst teams in the league.

In comment 11989649 Italianju said:

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Im sure they will go on an ok run at some point, but i feel like this whole season is going to be a mess. That said i dont think it will be bad enough to get a top 5 pick unfortunately. This early in the year its hard to root for them to lose, but if a couple months they are still horrible (im guessing they will be) it will be a lot easier to handle them being horrible. Like i said i doubt they are so bad that they are in the bottom 5, but a top 3 pick would be so huge to go with all the cap space.

I cant root for them to lose but i simply just cant watch. I used to be able to watch a Knicks game 4 quarters no matter what was going on...I was sick that way...

This team i cant get through a quarter without being disgusted...they have 2 defensive players on the entire roster it really is bad...

Hardaway is the most maddening player i have ever seen play....he is the definition of a chucker, plays no defense adds nothing to the game if his shot is off...

Larkin i have been really dissapointed in, i thought he could be a good young piece to add to this team when they get maxed out this offseason but he has been bad...showing no offensive ability, constantly fouling because he gets beat..

Acy is a hustle player but his defense is overrated and his offense he thinks he is better than he is...whenever he takes that outside shot i cringe and he is an awful finisher..

Jason Smith i thought would be a lot better defensively but he may be worse than Bargnani, at least bargnani would block a shot every once in a while...Smith jus tlooks lazy on the defensive end...

Dalembert has actually been a good shot blocker and low post defender but he can only play 20 minutes a game or Fisher chooses to only play him 20 minutes a game...

Stoudemire will score but man either this guy is really stupid or he is just awful at basic defensive plays...a simple slide to help on a driving PG he can not do..its either late and the guy goes right to the basket or he steps in and fouls the guy...

Shumpert has been playing well but the old Shumpert cam eout last night, fouling, shot off he ha sto be consistent..

JR Smith this guy i loved watching him play in Denver maybe because of the highlight plays he used to make but he is just so up and down he will give you a week where he looks like an all star and the next he looks like an undrafted bum out of SL

Melo is finally getting going in the triangle but defensively he is still awful...

Prigs i wish he was 5 years younger he could of been a good PG in this league he is just a step to slow now...

Fisher i am sorry has been awful and i know its early, i am not calling for his head or anything crazy like that but it has just been awful so far this year...playing 12 guys in the rotation, cant pick a starting lineup and stick with it, he is going to break Larry Brown's record, at least Larry Brown had a system for his madness of picking a starting lineup, play the guy whose hometown it is....Maybe once Calderon and Bargs are back he will stick with a starting unit but righ tnow it is awful and his defensive sytem may be worse than Woodson's...at least their not switching on every play but giving teams open 3's to protect the basket and the mid range is killing you....

at this point the mission should be a get atop pick, get Okafor, Towns or Mudiay or one of the overseas prospects who are supposedly really good, go after Milsap and Monroe or Dragic and rebuild this team...

Start offering JR for a bag of peanuts, see what you can get for THJR and completely tear down this team as much as possible...the cultur eis not changing until these bums are off the team

In comment 11989664 Sergio said:

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at defending the three. I can't tell and decide if it's a talent issue or a coaching issue. But it's just unacceptable how teams are getting wide open shots! And it's not just one or two players. It's the entire team!!! Including Shumpert, who refused to hustle back and close in on Martin last night.

It is a schem thing, Fisher mentioned it th eother night that their plan going into games is let teams shoot the 3 and protect the paint and the mid range...working out well there for you Fish

Before analytics changed the game. Someone needs to take derek fisher through the math. You protect the paint, you chase guys off the 3pt line. The best designed defenses funnel everything into the mid range area because thats by far the least efficient shot in the sport

I havent watched the knicks a ton this year

most makes allowed with 123 on 284 attempts, worst percentage allowed at .433

369 points (123x3) surrendered on 284 shots, which is the equivalent of shooting over 65 percent from 2 point range efficiency wise. (Youd need to go 185 for 284 (.651) to amass that point total shooting twos on the same number of attempts.

was a good value pick and an NBA player but he's nothing special and never will be. Talk about a 1 trick pony.

Lose lose lose

This early season. Opponents win % .433, which is even inflated by wins over the knicks

They havent even played a real team from the west yet. Theyll probably go like 4-16 (being charitable) against the top 10 teams in that conference

watch another 5 months of this. It's like once a team hits them with a run they wilt and it's game over. It's pathetic.

I know the roster is flawed but that's no excuse for leaving guys open constantly.

roster absolutely sucks so I'm not blasting Derek Fisher but in fairness, we always heard Brian Shaw was Phil's "guy" and the Nuggets are a disaster and none of the "Phil guys" have proven to be winners at this point. I still like Fisher and the hire but who knows?

In comment 11989826 DanMetroMan said:

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roster absolutely sucks so I'm not blasting Derek Fisher but in fairness, we always heard Brian Shaw was Phil's "guy" and the Nuggets are a disaster and none of the "Phil guys" have proven to be winners at this point. I still like Fisher and the hire but who knows?

I think the one thing working in Fish's favor is he is actually working for Jackson so Jackson knows the typed of players he needs to run the system they want...in the other's cases they had no supporters so they never got the players to run the triangle...

But again who knows if Phil will be able to bring those players in...

if Knicks get a top 3 pick get one of Towns Okafor or Mudiay...then in free agency target Monroe, Milsap, Gasol or Dragic...

for example if you get Okafor in the draft then sign Monroe and Dragic..

Dragic SG Melo Monroe Okafor...your team is build really quickly BUT Phil has to prove he can get the players to come to New York...

year is a free one for Jackson. The Knicks could win 15 games and the fans will accept it as part of the "plan" but I think the pressure is on this off season/next season. If they aren't very good people will shit on Phil like anyone else.

In comment 11989867 DanMetroMan said:

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year is a free one for Jackson. The Knicks could win 15 games and the fans will accept it as part of the "plan" but I think the pressure is on this off season/next season. If they aren't very good people will shit on Phil like anyone else.

I agree 100% with this...no matter how many wins they get this year...people are going to feel next year they must take a big step and then the following year be the year they are a contender...

In comment 11989872 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 11989867 DanMetroMan said: Quote: year is a free one for Jackson. The Knicks could win 15 games and the fans will accept it as part of the "plan" but I think the pressure is on this off season/next season. If they aren't very good people will shit on Phil like anyone else. I agree 100% with this...no matter how many wins they get this year...people are going to feel next year they must take a big step and then the following year be the year they are a contender...

The other thing is 1. They have their pick (imagine how nuts people would be going if they didn't? It would be insanity) 2. They have cap room. Next season sucking doesn't do anything for them.

and it's all well and good but if they lose on Saturday to the Sixers... I don't care what this season is about the natives are going to get really restless.

In comment 11989883 EricNY33 said:

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and it's all well and good but if they lose on Saturday to the Sixers... I don't care what this season is about the natives are going to get really restless.

The people that will go nuts are the impatient people who dont see what the Knicks can do this off season....

In comment 11989888 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 11989883 EricNY33 said: Quote: and it's all well and good but if they lose on Saturday to the Sixers... I don't care what this season is about the natives are going to get really restless. The people that will go nuts are the impatient people who dont see what the Knicks can do this off season....

Or they're fans who want to see their team win games.

- Do we think Phil drafts based on how quickly a player can help because of expectations/Melo's age or do you think he would shoot for a HR given the choice?

on DX of some of the top prospects and someone mentioned Przingas yeserday...i know its only a scouting video but he reminds me a lot of bargnani...can shoot outside some shot blocking, ok in the post because of his length but plays really soft...

In comment 11989894 nygiants16 said:

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on DX of some of the top prospects and someone mentioned Przingas yeserday...i know its only a scouting video but he reminds me a lot of bargnani...can shoot outside some shot blocking, ok in the post because of his length but plays really soft...

He's been knocked for being "soft" which generally bugs me about a player but in fairness to the kid... he's 18 which means you are judging how tough a 17-18 year old looks vs. grown men. I find it hard to believe Dirk looked "tough" or "rugged" at the same age. His age is pretty key in discussing him.

In comment 11989892 DanMetroMan said:

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- Do we think Phil drafts based on how quickly a player can help because of expectations/Melo's age or do you think he would shoot for a HR given the choice?

I think it depends where the Knicks are picking...

Top 3 you cant go wrong with any of the top 3 in my opinion...

4-13 i think he is just going BPA...a Player in college that his scouts have seen all year that played very well may be higher than the European players who have a bunch of potential...

In comment 11989902 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 11989894 nygiants16 said: Quote: on DX of some of the top prospects and someone mentioned Przingas yeserday...i know its only a scouting video but he reminds me a lot of bargnani...can shoot outside some shot blocking, ok in the post because of his length but plays really soft... He's been knocked for being "soft" which generally bugs me about a player but in fairness to the kid... he's 18 which means you are judging how tough a 17-18 year old looks vs. grown men. I find it hard to believe Dirk looked "tough" or "rugged" at the same age. His age is pretty key in discussing him.

I agree which is why i said it is just a dx video and not really watching a full game....

I am always nervous about drafting a 7 footer tall lanky euro player because i mean how many have really panned out? you have Dirk and who else? Bargs was supposed to be the next Dirk as well..

Its just really hard to judge those European players unless they are absolutely dominating overseas like Mirotic was...

we don't get a shot at one of the true studs I want the Stanimal.

Bogdanivic has loked good so far for the Nets...

In comment 11989911 DanMetroMan said:

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we don't get a shot at one of the true studs I want the Stanimal.

I am about to watch his video now because you mentioned him yesterday...

Can he play the 2?

comes down to the scouts. I have a feeling a "correction" is coming ie, went through an underrating of Euro's to overrating them but I suspect we see some Euro/Asian stars on the way and you don't want to ignore the market. Dirk is an all-time great so you don't want to compare guys to him

In comment 11989915 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 11989911 DanMetroMan said: Quote: we don't get a shot at one of the true studs I want the Stanimal. I am about to watch his video now because you mentioned him yesterday... Can he play the 2?

I've seen a split. Some think he's going to be an oversized 2 that can guard 3's at the next level. Monster body, surprisingly good outside shot for a guy of his build, lock down defensive upside. Off the charts rep for his mental/toughness part of the game.

that anyone can guard Lebron but he seems like the kind of kid who would give it a college try.

playing with Harden this summer
Link - ( New Window )

Anyone read the story in the NY Times about the guy who is attending all 82 Knick games this year (yes, that would be home and away)? Lost his position as a lawyer and decided to combine his passions for travels, the Knicks and umm....self torture, I guess.

And you think you'll be having a long Knick winter.....

is that they can take over games on the college level...If they are going to come in and be starters in the NBA i want to see them take over College games...

If they have a bad shooting game fine but i want to see them dominate in other ways...if a player is having a bad game and cant help anywhere else i dont want him no moreone dimensional players...

Thats what turned me off about Parker last year...he would have a bad shooting night and Coach K would have to put him on the bench because he did nothing else...his defense was putrid...

In comment 11989955 nygiants16 said:

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is that they can take over games on the college level...If they are going to come in and be starters in the NBA i want to see them take over College games... If they have a bad shooting game fine but i want to see them dominate in other ways...if a player is having a bad game and cant help anywhere else i dont want him no moreone dimensional players... Thats what turned me off about Parker last year...he would have a bad shooting night and Coach K would have to put him on the bench because he did nothing else...his defense was putrid...

This is actually what I like most about Stanimal. He was a defense/rebounding kid who has gradually added offense.

if it turns out Fisher is a lousy coach.

Gasol has evolved into a decent player but he will be thirty and signing him to a longterm deal will just recreate the same problems that have plagued the Knicks since 2000.

Milsap is a good player but he is a complementary piece, not a second star that you pair with Melo.

Dragic is not even worth talking about. Ditto for Rondo.

But he is not that good. Unlike, say Hibbert, he has no defensive presence and his offense is nothing to write home about. Also, not sure how he would fit in the triangle.

Still, he is a big body with decent shooting touch, so he would probably be the best choice.

Then, if They could get a decent PG, you are looking at maybe a fifty win team. But not a contender IMO

They really have to luck out in the draft to get to the level of a legit contender. Let's hope Phil can look into his crystal ball and find the next Scottie Pippen

of Gasol, a very good rookie, another very good defender, and Shump as a defensive core with Melo driving the offense has a real punchers chance in the East.

In comment 11990354 oipolloi said:

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But he is not that good. Unlike, say Hibbert, he has no defensive presence and his offense is nothing to write home about. Also, not sure how he would fit in the triangle. Still, he is a big body with decent shooting touch, so he would probably be the best choice. Then, if They could get a decent PG, you are looking at maybe a fifty win team. But not a contender IMO They really have to luck out in the draft to get to the level of a legit contender. Let's hope Phil can look into his crystal ball and find the next Scottie Pippen

16 and 11 guys don't grow on trees. His PER is 19.5. He's good in the post and can shoot from mid-range. He's a very good passer... and he'll be turning 25 in June.

I like Gasol a lot but to me... the play here is Monroe.

either with the Knicks or another team. Tough to understand a pro athlete who has a very short shelf live not going all out, especially when they may be looking for a payday.