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Tom and Jerry, maybe not so good?

Joey in VA : 11/20/2014 12:11 pm
One of the reasons we stink that may be overlooked or under discussed is who we hold on to and let go of based on Jerry's evaluation of his players.

Someone mentioned the letting go of Martellus Bennett and the one year stop gap of that horrible TE who shall not be named here. Bennett was a tremendous blocker, asset in the red zone, downfield target and someone who while odd, was a competitor. Losing a TE of his caliber definitely hurt the running game and passing game last year. But why? Was he paid way too much? In this day and age, I say no but we opted to let him walk and I think the JPP of TEs is why.

We have Jerrell Jernigan who sees no time, then has a mini revival last year down the stretch, the owner mentions him specifically and his role again this year seemed to be minimal before his injury. He was a great PR and multi dimensional threat and wasn't given a chance to do that here consistently. Why?

Jayron Hosley, who Reese called "athletically arrogant" was another Reese favorite who I assume was counted on to bolster the return game, again a dynamic return guy who was never used that way. Why?

Not so much this year, but James Brewer is another Reese guy who he has talked up as being talented and underutilized. He fit the bill on paper and in the weight room but he's not developing and quite frankly a big letdown. Yet Reese has up until this season beaten the drum for him and he sees no field. Why?

Why do we keep looking for big pass rushing OLBs like Sintim, Schofield and Kennard when we run essentially a modified and horribly managed Tampa 2? The defensive system is NOT being stocked with the types of players it needs to be good. I'm sure Fewell has no clue what type of players he needs or is too stupid to ask for them, whatever the case a Sintim, Schofield and Kennard are NOT ideal fits for this scheme. I like Kennard, I think he may be a solid player but he's not the speedy rangy LB this type of 4-3 needs. If it was the Spags type of 4-3 over, then sure he fits perfectly but this is a different system and it's not being maximized from a talent standpoint. Why?

So we see a drop off in OL, TE, WR and we have a horrific return game now that David Wilson is gone. My belief is that in FA Reese assumes his hand picked guys will step up and when they don't this is what we get. Is he potentially counting on players who TC has no or little use for? Is he picking players that I'm sure TC "likes" on draft day but maybe aren't his type of players? Go look at TC's draft record in Jax, and what type of OL and DL he built and no way no how do we pick a Justin Pugh if TC is in charge.

We stick to the board and Coughlin is given what he's given and when the guys don't pan out, how much of that is a mistaken belief by Reese in "his guys"? The JPP of tight ends???? Adrien Robinson is a dud, a total dud as is Hosley, Jernigan, Brewer, all picks who SHOULD be the solid veteran contributors that give a team solid starters and depth. Yet none are even close to that and they are essentially taking up roster space and possibly clouding what Reese considers to be need areas.

It's something I've sensed or wondered about for a few years when Reese makes his bland annual state of how smart I am conferences. I think he believes in his players and his system and something is just off between him and TC philosophically. Not that they don't work well together, they have two trophies but I sense there is something not quite right there in terms of philosophy.
What philosophy would guys like Robinson, Hosley, etc. fit though?  
Riggies : 11/20/2014 12:17 pm : link
Maybe TC and JR do differ, maybe they're oil and water after all, but most the players you're bringing up would be terrible under any HC or system.

They're just not good NFL-level players.
Riggies  
Joey in VA : 11/20/2014 12:21 pm : link
That's part of my point though, they fit this bill of what Reese looks for on paper physically. Is that philosophy too rigid or too reliant on numbers and not production? We drafted high production guys one year, high character one year, low floor one year, high ceiling another. There's always a theme to our drafts (i'm not sure why) and it doesn't look to me like our Personnel folks are in step with the coaching staff as well as they should be in what to go find.
Good post Joey. I am firmly in the "Reese is responsible" camp.  
Victor in CT : 11/20/2014 12:21 pm : link
The drafts have been misguided to say the least. The "JPP of TEs" instead of a useful player. All the flops at OL, LB, just ridiculous. Obvious ill-fitting pieces taken with premium picks. We could go on and on. If TC goes, Reese has to go too.
Not one mention of Phillip Dillard?  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 11/20/2014 12:24 pm : link
come on Joey.
did you guys  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/20/2014 12:25 pm : link
notice that Chykie Brown played 30 snaps on Sunday and Hosley 20? And Brown has been here two weeks.
Is it also possible  
oldutican : 11/20/2014 12:26 pm : link
Coughlin and his staff aren't very good at developing players with raw abilities?
I saw he was out there a lot, didn't realize it was that many snaps  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 11/20/2014 12:26 pm : link
San Fran had what, 60 offensive snaps?
.  
SJ4good80 : 11/20/2014 12:28 pm : link
oldutican  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/20/2014 12:28 pm : link
except our castoffs haven't gone on to do much of anything elsewhere, while the reverse has been true here (Domenik Hixon, Madison Hedgecock, Shaun O'Hara, etc.).
I think  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/20/2014 12:28 pm : link
68 snaps. He played almost half the game.
Reese seems to pick a newer style  
Zebra3 : 11/20/2014 12:30 pm : link
Of NFL players. Tom is more set in the 90 s style of football that he enjoyed the most success in his days before the Giants.
Reese drafts for the NFL today something Tom and staff don't seem to want to coach.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/20/2014 12:32 pm : link
How many of the "Reese" guys are actually Reese guys and not Ross guys?

It's an honest question because I really don't know how much of a hand Reese had in specifically picking some of these players.
RE: did you guys  
Victor in CT : 11/20/2014 12:33 pm : link
In comment 11990052 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
notice that Chykie Brown played 30 snaps on Sunday and Hosley 20? And Brown has been here two weeks.


Bingo!
arc  
Joey in VA : 11/20/2014 12:33 pm : link
Good question. It is Reese's system though, he developed it, it's his formulaic they use in what they can and cannot select.
and Chykie  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/20/2014 12:34 pm : link
Brown was cut by the Ravens because he "sucked".
Eric  
Joey in VA : 11/20/2014 12:35 pm : link
It's those things that puzzle me. How is Brown able to step in and play so quickly and have vets here who take years to figure shit out? Something is not stirring the kool aid here
Don't the Ravens play  
Zebra3 : 11/20/2014 12:38 pm : link
The same defense Fewell likes 2 deep zone?
Someone explain the big slow OLB thing please?  
Joey in VA : 11/20/2014 12:38 pm : link
Sintim was as bad a fit for this defense as I've seen drafted. Then our first FA dig was Schofield, similar player...why? This is not a blitzing team that uses a stand up OLB in that flex role.
Fewell's defense is a frankenstein  
Joey in VA : 11/20/2014 12:40 pm : link
At this point. It's got no philosophy or base, he's a complete idiot.
But why...  
Chris in Philly : 11/20/2014 12:40 pm : link
Well, that's the real question, isn't it? Why? The 'How' and the 'Who' is just scenery for the public. Hosely, Bennett, Jernigan, the OL, keeps 'em guessing like some kind of parlor game. Prevents 'em from asking the most important question: Why? Why were these players added? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who?
.  
arcarsenal : 11/20/2014 12:42 pm : link
I think Reese thought we'd be able to use Schofield as a 4-3 edge/pass rushing DE, which is basically how Seattle has been using him from what I've seen. I actually don't think he would have been a bad fit here.

Sintim just sucked. He would have been shitty even as a 3-4 OLB I think. And the fact that he never caught on anywhere or did anything post-NYG tells me we just drafted a bust in that spot and burned a pick.
I have been a big Reese defender on here and still am  
Giants11 : 11/20/2014 12:42 pm : link
No way should he be fired. I do however don't understand his infatuation for holding on to guys that clearly aren't working out basically for their whole rookie contract before giving up. Ramses Barden, Jacquian Williams, Hosley etc... listen in today's NFL after a few years you have to move on no matter when you drafted the guy if it clearly isn't happening for them. I'm not saying the replacements for these guys are necessarily going to be pro-bowlers. However you need to keep renewing your talent base and you will find some diamonds in the rough. we have actually been pretty good with that when we bring in vets up until the last year or two when we have gone south there(See J. Jerry and Brown). You can't be afraid to take the leap from the familiar guy just because it's comfortable.
Joey  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/20/2014 12:43 pm : link
Are you saying you weren't impressed by the speedy trio of Herzlich, McClain, and Kennard last Sunday?

Can you imagine what the results would have been had we been playing someone with a serious QB?
RE: But why...  
Go Terps : 11/20/2014 12:46 pm : link
In comment 11990101 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
Well, that's the real question, isn't it? Why? The 'How' and the 'Who' is just scenery for the public. Hosely, Bennett, Jernigan, the OL, keeps 'em guessing like some kind of parlor game. Prevents 'em from asking the most important question: Why? Why were these players added? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who?


"Testify?"

"No chance in hell. I'll end up in Oakland or worse. You too."
It's obvious some dynamic is off  
fkap : 11/20/2014 12:46 pm : link
I'm a firm believer that coaches get input on player acquisition. IF TC is making recommendations, and is getting over ruled, the system is broke. IF Ross is running the draft, with consistent bad results, but neither Reese or TC force a change, the system is broke. IF Chris Mara, or John Mara, is meddling and affecting picks/FA acquisitions which neither Reese, Ross, or TC want, the system is broke.

TC has had plenty of opportunity to abandon ship if he didn't like the way things were run. Reese has had plenty of opportunity to jettison TC if he didn't like the coaching.

Personally, I think it's a multiple combination of factors, not a black/white Tom or Jerry situation. If I had to guess, I'd put the blame 33 % on Jerry, 33 % on Tom, and 34 % miscellaneous (I do think Chris and John do a bit of meddling, and there are others in the org besides just Tom and Jerry).
the funny thing  
area junc : 11/20/2014 12:46 pm : link
is, with fewell's D he should want speedy coverage linebackers because he rarely blitzes. 85+% of the time he plays his lb's in zone + man coverage

we cannot expect mcclain, kennard, herzlich to handle those duties. we cannot expect j-will at 220# and afraid of contact to play linebacker. and we go YEARS without doing a damn thing about it when every fan, commentator and opponent is drooling at the middle of the field.

andy reid abused our undermanned lb's for years on end, with no counter punch.
Well, they've been doing it throughout history  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2014 12:50 pm : link
Coaches are fired, Mr. Garrison, football is power, nothing more! Oh, don't take my word for it, don't believe me. Do your own work, your own thinking.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/20/2014 12:53 pm : link
I don't think Fewell even knows what he wants to do defensively anymore. I think he's trying to adapt to the personnel he has but it's just turned into a megaclusterfuck. It looks like his approach just changes weekly now.

He's trying to save his job but it's too late at this point. I just hope the next guy gets a couple of decent LB's to work with because lord knows outside of a half season of Jon Beason, Fewell certainly didn't.
While I agree overall  
NYG07 : 11/20/2014 12:59 pm : link
People need to stop harping on Reese letting Bennett go. In 2013 that giants were completely up against the cap and had to scrape by just to field a roster.

Bennett signed for 20 million with the Bears, way out of the Giants price range. If the Giants had more money, they would have matched that offer.
They played (costly) games  
fkap : 11/20/2014 1:10 pm : link
to fit Myers under the cap. They could have done the same with Bennett. they may have been saving money for Nicks, but even still, by the time Bennett's back loading starting taking hold, Nicks would have been in the low priced years.

Ultimately, they didn't value B high enough to warrant paying him, but they could have afforded him if they had wanted him. They simply didn't want to allocate that kind of money for a TE.
There's definitely a disconnect  
JonC : 11/20/2014 1:17 pm : link
or at least an incongruent dynamic at play with regards to how to acquire personnel.

What games?  
NYG07 : 11/20/2014 1:21 pm : link
Bennett got 5.3 Million from the Bears in 2013.

Myers was given a "4" year contract which was really a 1 year deal at a low cap number with an option for the other 3 years that we all knew would never be picked up.

Reese did not just let Bennett go, he simply could not afford him.
RE: arc  
Victor in CT : 11/20/2014 1:26 pm : link
In comment 11990080 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Good question. It is Reese's system though, he developed it, it's his formulaic they use in what they can and cannot select.


They are ALL Reese guys. He is the GM. He is responsible for his staff and has the power to overrule them. The buck stops here. Or there.
RE: RE: arc  
arcarsenal : 11/20/2014 1:33 pm : link
In comment 11990200 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 11990080 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Good question. It is Reese's system though, he developed it, it's his formulaic they use in what they can and cannot select.



They are ALL Reese guys. He is the GM. He is responsible for his staff and has the power to overrule them. The buck stops here. Or there.


Ok, so what is Marc Ross' job then? He had nothing to do with drafting any of the players taken since he's been here?
RE: RE: RE: arc  
Victor in CT : 11/20/2014 1:39 pm : link
In comment 11990214 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 11990200 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 11990080 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Good question. It is Reese's system though, he developed it, it's his formulaic they use in what they can and cannot select.



They are ALL Reese guys. He is the GM. He is responsible for his staff and has the power to overrule them. The buck stops here. Or there.



Ok, so what is Marc Ross' job then? He had nothing to do with drafting any of the players taken since he's been here?


Obviously he does, but as in any business, the top man is responsible. Reese obviously approves of the job Ross has done or he wouldn't be here. Like any other business, the head man is responsible. If his underlings aren't up to snuff then he has the responsibility to replace them.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/20/2014 1:41 pm : link
Then I guess the Mara's should fire themselves since they were responsible for Reese?
RE: .  
Victor in CT : 11/20/2014 1:53 pm : link
In comment 11990232 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Then I guess the Mara's should fire themselves since they were responsible for Reese?


That's a moronic comment arc. If you don't understand that a boss is responsible for the performance of his underlings or the difference between ownership and management then I hope you are independently wealthy. I'd be surprised if Mara/Tisch aren't at least discussing Reese's performance or lack thereof.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/20/2014 1:56 pm : link
Reese isn't going anywhere after this year.

I can promise you that much. If you think otherwise, you're a fool.
RE: .  
Victor in CT : 11/20/2014 1:59 pm : link
In comment 11990263 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Reese isn't going anywhere after this year.

I can promise you that much. If you think otherwise, you're a fool.


You're probably right, but good organizations always plan ahead. And if they get clobbered in a building filled with Dallas fans on national TV Sunday night and play to a half empty or worse stadium in December, you can bet that Reese and everybody else will be called on the carpet.
.  
arcarsenal : 11/20/2014 2:14 pm : link
Everyone will be put on notice but it'll be Coughlin who loses his job. Not Reese.
Schofield was a pretty good pass  
bc4life : 11/20/2014 2:14 pm : link
rusher and player with the Cards and contributed as a Seahawk. We'll never know what he could have done here.

The LB is just a mystery - how can we not draft one consistent quality starter since the 90s? Not an all pro, just someone who can be counted to come in and do their job.

The Bennett Example Doesn't Work  
Samiam : 11/20/2014 2:26 pm : link
Bennett is an example of why Reese is a good GM, not a bad GM. First, as noted above, he was unaffordable. The Bears paid him that money with a high priced QB and have a bad defense, well worse than the Giants. But, more important, Donnell's performance showed what the Giants have done well since Shockey. You don't need to spend for a good TE. Reese has made mistakes but not paying Bennett is not one of them
JR/TC  
stretch234 : 11/20/2014 2:30 pm : link
How is it that every other team can take mid round picks and play them and figure out if they can contribute or not. This staff struggles to do this

Did anyone watch the Pats run between the T's the other night with highly regarded R 4th rd C, 6th RD G and UDFA G.

Are other coaches going to sit there and watch an unproductive Kiwi, while having his eventual replacement on the bench.

Reese has brought in a 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5 & 7 on OL, plus the FA. None of them can be good. When it is clear that Jerry is not the answer at G, why not see if Mosley is a player.

They sign the best FA G whose best position is RG, and the coaching staff thinks that Snee was the answer and then put Jerry there. Did Reese tell the coaching staff to move Kiwi to LB

Is Reese the one teaching the OL for another year to not figure out how to block a stunt. Is Reese teaching the DE & LB's to continuously crash the ends. Why another year of mis-communication in the secondary, when there are talented players.

We have heard from coaches that Robinson is very athletic - yet there are no signs of him anywhere on the field. Week after week teams are using multiple TE sets with no name players. Can't we at least see him run a route down the hash marks - 1 time.

The new CBA allows limited practice, but also only allows your non first picks only 4 year contracts. When you can, you have to play guys to see what they do on the field.

Yes Sintim was a bad pick for the system and Austin was a huge gamble. Yes he does not value LB's as much as other positions. At some point, the coaching staff needs to answer to some of this

So we don't have the money for Bennett  
BigBlueCane : 11/20/2014 2:48 pm : link
but we can find the money for all these duds at OL and CB.

Hmm...
Great post  
phil in arizona : 11/20/2014 3:22 pm : link
Considering the cap, I think at some point you have to take a leap of faith on certain players. We took way too many and we did it with crucial positions like the offensive line.

What they did at TE was infuriating. We let Marty B go, hand the keys over to an h-back and 4th round project who never caught a ball in his life (keep in mind, some teams draft TEs in the 4th round that contribute right away). We drop the H-back after a terrible season, sign some more cast-offs and roll the dice again. It's panned out so far this season, but when you do this you are pretty much forcing Coughlin to play someone still fairly green. The byproduct of that are rookie mistakes, like Donnell's 3 lost fumbles. It's almost unfair that's what they have to rely on.
Bennett AND Donnell  
phil in arizona : 11/20/2014 3:24 pm : link
would have made one hell of a 2 TE set.
Good analysis, theory  
TMS : 11/20/2014 3:51 pm : link
and post. Reese was pushed by Accorsi who did not want Coughlin as HC probably because he would have trouble controlling him. So he left and we took Reese possibly as a diversity hire. Coughlin was who the Giants wanted but Reese's incompetence has come home to haunt us now, after the two SBs were won.
I wouldn't call Jernigan a great punt returner,  
Exit 172 : 11/20/2014 4:06 pm : link
since he's muffed about a hundred punts in his young career.
RE: I wouldn't call Jernigan a great punt returner,  
Victor in CT : 11/20/2014 4:16 pm : link
In comment 11990560 Exit 172 said:
Quote:
since he's muffed about a hundred punts in his young career.


Jernigan blows.
Joey  
Daniel in MI : 11/20/2014 4:54 pm : link
Side question related to PF. Didn't you do a post last year or the year before about how the DEs were CONSTANTLY crashing down hard when we play an option team, and your conclusion was this had to be PF's design, because it wouldn't happen as consistently if it wasn't?

I was thinking about that (and noted your old posts) after we did the same shit vs. Seattle this year.

It has to be by design, doesn't it? (Stupid design, but design nonetheless.)

As for your current post - I think there is always some tension between GMs and coaches, especially on struggling teams. I mean, you have Tuna's whining about buying groceries if he has to cook the meal, for example. I'm sure there are people Reese thinks could be used better, and people coaches would have preferred.

That said, I think our entire philosophy on LBs is jacked. Going back to EA and his whole philosophy of "impact positions" of which LB was not one. I think it sure as hell can be, even in a 4-3. Look at how Kawika Mitchell secured the middle of the D and had some critical blitzes in the playoffs (like his fake retreat blitz). I think Fewell has no idea how to run stunts and games that might FREE a freaking LB to get pressure. Seattle is running 3 guys into the same hole. We run a guy into a wall never to be heard from again.
A couple of years ago when we stupidly signed Dan Connor..  
arcarsenal : 11/20/2014 7:34 pm : link
I remember Karlos Dansby was also available. I can't pretend I've seen a ton of him these last couple of seasons but he had 114 tackles last year and I have to believe he could have actually been productive here. I don't know why we weren't interested in him. I absolutely hated the Dan Connor signing.
RE: JR/TC  
dcable : 11/21/2014 5:24 pm : link
In comment 11990309 stretch234 said:
Quote:
How is it that every other team can take mid round picks and play them and figure out if they can contribute or not. This staff struggles to do this

Did anyone watch the Pats run between the T's the other night with highly regarded R 4th rd C, 6th RD G and UDFA G.

Are other coaches going to sit there and watch an unproductive Kiwi, while having his eventual replacement on the bench.

Reese has brought in a 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5 & 7 on OL, plus the FA. None of them can be good. When it is clear that Jerry is not the answer at G, why not see if Mosley is a player.

They sign the best FA G whose best position is RG, and the coaching staff thinks that Snee was the answer and then put Jerry there. Did Reese tell the coaching staff to move Kiwi to LB

Is Reese the one teaching the OL for another year to not figure out how to block a stunt. Is Reese teaching the DE & LB's to continuously crash the ends. Why another year of mis-communication in the secondary, when there are talented players.

We have heard from coaches that Robinson is very athletic - yet there are no signs of him anywhere on the field. Week after week teams are using multiple TE sets with no name players. Can't we at least see him run a route down the hash marks - 1 time.

The new CBA allows limited practice, but also only allows your non first picks only 4 year contracts. When you can, you have to play guys to see what they do on the field.

Yes Sintim was a bad pick for the system and Austin was a huge gamble. Yes he does not value LB's as much as other positions. At some point, the coaching staff needs to answer to some of this


Totally agree with you. I can't understyand why Kiwi is still starting while Morre sitys on the bench. I guess TC doesnt realize this season is over.
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