Eli Manning and John Elway - Parallel Beginings Revisited

because it illustrates a major problem with statistics.

Again, for the record I like Eli for all that he has done, but he is not on John Elway's level, and after 10 years he never will be. That is not an insult to Eli, because Elway was really, really good. So it is OK to say that Eli is really good, but not as good as Elway.

If you have to resort to statistics, it just means you haven't seen Elway play. The era was very different, and Elway excelled during that time in a way that Eli hasn't during this era.

Ridiculous posts like this are why people dismiss your posts about Manning. It was just a wee bit tougher to play QB in the 1980s than it is today, when defense is basically illegal.

And post 2004 are not even comparable. Eli has played his entire career in the post 2004 world.

but check out how eerily close eli's career numbers are to boomer esiasons right now. Td vs int, passer rating, passing yards, its eery. Esiason made about 10 more starts but eli played in the passer steroid era

Elway was a 9 time PBer and it wasn't based soley on statistics. Elway was a playmaker with a great arm but also the ability to run. This is no disrespect to Eli who I have liked as the QB of this team, but there really isn't a comparison between the 2 players.
When you are a 9 time PBer you are considered on of the best QBs of a generation.
2X Ofeensive player of the year
1X NFL MVP
Comparing these 2 QBs is a reach at best.

Lets compare league average passing production in those 2 seasons...

1992= 18.4 td vs 18.5 int 3,002 yards 78 passer rating

2013= 25.1 td vs 15.7 int 3,770 yds pasding 84 rating

by the way, i happen to think elway is pretty overrated by some, but any comparison between he and a 21st century qb statistically is kind of pointless
link - ( New Window )

73 passer rating in 1992, not 78

I'm sure you all remember Reeves' offensive schemes fondly.

Put Elway in this NFL and he's Peyton or better IMO.

Career

eli 247 td 182 int 37,840 yds 81.5 rating

boomer 247 td 184 int 37,920 yds 81.1 rating

have been brought up. I think Eli could have played QB at an elite level even when real defense was still legal.

Eli is willing to throw guys open and fire it into tight spaces to make a play. He would have been able to complete passes even when DB's could actually defend.

Eli also is a great deep ball thrower. He does not depend on the check down running for massive yards after the catch like so many NFL QB's today seem to do. Eli would have made those tough receptions count.

QB's were also allowed to be hit harder than they are now. Eli in one tough SOB and would have been able to deal with the blows.

defense - how many would he have thrown with more contact being allowed? That number wouldn't have been going down.

In comment 11990126 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Career eli 247 td 182 int 37,840 yds 81.5 rating boomer 247 td 184 int 37,920 yds 81.1 rating

Joe, that's why I'm interested in the update. Through five years, most of their numbers matched up like that, regardless of difference of era, etc... it was still kind of weird. That's why I want to see where they stand at ten years.

A statistical comparison between a guy that played QB in the 80s and 90s to a guys playing in the Roger Goodell era is virtually meaningless.

I love Eli, but he is not anywhere close to being as good a QB as John Elway and to suggest otherwise is simply absurd.

stats are not the route to take. The stats just don't measure up to the elite amongst his contemporaries. Besides, the case doesn't need to be made. What's been accomplished has been accomplished and nothing can be done to detract from that.

Didnt put up peyton manning numbers before 2004. That was the year where they started really emphasing illegal contact and the league shattered every passing record. But that was only the start, because it has done nothing but continue further down that line for the past decade since. Eli has played his entire career in this passer steroid phase. So hes going to be way ahead of the curve and finish in the top 10 in all the passing categories, but that wont last very long as guys come behind him fiercely. I mean, matt stafford just set the record for fewest starts to get to 20k yards. Thats where we are at now with the passing numbers

I'm not discounting the effect of rule changes that make passing much easier, but given the lack of a salary cap, teams could keep together a stronger team for longer. That has to apply some downward pressure on todays number. Although that could be offset by free agency allowing teams to rebuilt faster.

What's funny is that on 2/4/08 there were quite a few people on this board saying Eli was golden forever. Obviously that has not been the case and he just hasn't been as popular with many Giant fans as you'd expect. And I imagine that 15 years from now BBIers will be knocking the QB and saying he wasn't as good as Eli Manning, completely forgetting the criticism levied at him while he played.

That's really the only comparison I'd feel comfortable making but hey it's your thread.

which up until that point, was pretty even. I'd like to see if it continued on that path five years later.

In comment 11990164 Go Terps said:

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What's funny is that on 2/4/08 there were quite a few people on this board saying Eli was golden forever. Obviously that has not been the case and he just hasn't been as popular with many Giant fans as you'd expect. And I imagine that 15 years from now BBIers will be knocking the QB and saying he wasn't as good as Eli Manning, completely forgetting the criticism levied at him while he played.

I think you need to separate the fans' attachment to Eli from their evaluation of Eli. Your post seems to blur the two.

I love Eli and want him to continue as the QB of this team for as long as he is able to play at a high level. I think he still is. His come from behind victories, playoff magic and Super Bowl heroics, as well as the way he carries himself and represents the Giants will make me a fan of his forever and I will always remember him fondly.

Having said that, he was never as good a QB as the all-time greats. He had great runs, great seasons (like 2011), and played his best when it mattered the most. But that doesn't mean he was Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana or Peyton Manning.

Saying he is "golden forever" means he has earned a lasting place with this fan base forever. It does not mean we all become blind to being able to put his play and career in perspective.

In comment 11990164 Go Terps said:

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What's funny is that on 2/4/08 there were quite a few people on this board saying Eli was golden forever. Obviously that has not been the case and he just hasn't been as popular with many Giant fans as you'd expect. And I imagine that 15 years from now BBIers will be knocking the QB and saying he wasn't as good as Eli Manning, completely forgetting the criticism levied at him while he played.

Well said. The same thing happened with Simms. A lot of fans didn't like Phil, especially when Hos won in 90'.....Now- Everyone loved Simms (Sure you did).

It's sad that we have to over-analyze every throw the guy makes. I'll just sit and watch the best QB in franchise history.

this parallel should also include Reeves-->Shannahan, and Coughlin-->??.

A change in the entire staff, including HC, might be best for this team and Eli going forward.

Although I do remember Reeves and Elway just simply not getting along anymore. Eli and TC aren't even close to that.

Elway's pretty much "the prototype" at the QB position. Football scouts just jizzed themselves over Elway. He brought everything to the table.

So even though his stats were never that great, the pure talent and ability was always easy to see. And combined with his great team success (2 SB wins, 3 SB losses), the pure talent portion of his legacy overwhelms the "average stats" portion of his legacy.

It makes him a really unique player in NFL History. He's thrown into GOAT discussions off of pure talent more than anything else. He was an A++ physical talent who led his teams to 5 Super Bowls.

I love Eli but he's not even remotely close as a physical specimen. At his best, he has a really nice power/accuracy combination but there's nothing special about his arm like with Elway. He's also a very slow QB, nothing special about his athleticm like with Elway.

Are Elway and Eli more similar than the general public believes? Yes. Does Elway get overrated to a degree due to the mancrush football fans had over his talent? Yes. Does Eli get underrated to a degree because he's viewed as a doofus? Yes.

But is Eli Manning on the same level as John Elway? NO.

My perspective on Eli Manning's career is that his play in crucial moments is the biggest reason for two of the happiest days in the history of the franchise. And I'm not just talking about winning two Super Bowls with game ending drives (a ridiculous feat that no other player has accomplished and that is severely underappreciated everywhere).

I'm also talking about his performance in the playoffs in 2007 and 2011. There are great QBs...all-timers...that have not had one run like that let alone two.

I'm not going to repeat for the millionth time where the playoff games were, the QBs he outclassed, etc. I think much of this discussion boils down to a couple questions:

What matters to you as a fan? Is it the truly great moments that you enjoy or is it being able to point to the back of a football card at the end of it all?

I know where I stand.

he's a very good NFL QB. A franchise QB.

Elway was a great NFL QB, and a HOF'er.

Statistics......any stats from back then do not measure up. Look at Troy Aikman's...you'll be shocked. The game was completely different.

Osi makes a great point....Elway's athleticism not only included arm strength, but Elway was a terrific scrambler who would win games late with his legs and arm.

Most closely resembles a durable phil simms. I dont like making the comparison because its too easy, but where each ranked amongst their peers was very similar

Eli is going go be an interesting hall of fame case. I tend to think he will make it in, but its going to get crowded at qb. We arent even having this conversation though if not for the superbowls, and i mean both, 1 wouldnt have done it. Im not a fan of ring counting when it comes to judging individuals, personally i think if you cant defend a candidacy without resorting to team accomplishments you have a weak candidacy. But we'll see. And he still has time

In comment 11990235 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Most closely resembles a durable phil simms. I dont like making the comparison because its too easy, but where each ranked amongst their peers was very similar Eli is going go be an interesting hall of fame case. I tend to think he will make it in, but its going to get crowded at qb. We arent even having this conversation though if not for the superbowls, and i mean both, 1 wouldnt have done it. Im not a fan of ring counting when it comes to judging individuals, personally i think if you cant defend a candidacy without resorting to team accomplishments you have a weak candidacy. But we'll see. And he still has time

If you look at 2000, who is a lock?
Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, Favre

Then you have a boatload of QBs who have a case:
Brees (him being a lock is nauseating)
Eli
Ben
Rivers
Romo
Luck (has a ways to go)

I think Brees, Ben, and Eli should all be inducted eventually. Rivers/Romo should fall short, barring some great play late into their careers.

take a look at Joe Montana's stats. For my money the best QB of all time, surrounded by talent including easily the best WR in NFL (maybe the best player) and what does Montana have to show for it...?

Nice stats, but nothing that jumps off the page. Threw for 30+ touchdowns only once (31). Never, that's right, never threw for over 4,000 yards. Joe Montana. Peyton sleepwalks to 4k & 30.

Apples & oranges. On no planet is Eli Manning John Elway's equal. And that's taking into account that there are some noteworthy knocks against Elway.

he is a very good, big game QB who can be surgical when the pieces around him are clicking. He isn't Rodgers or Luck in that he can turn nothing into something, 2011 was his closest year to that.

He is someone who needs time and can move the ball down field. The big game aspect cannot be overlooked either. Think about how incredible it is that the Giants went into Lambeau twice and beat them in the playoffs, including a 15-1 team.

This is why I completely disagree with moving on from Eli, he still has years left and he just needs protection and a solid running game and he is more than capable.

it's been covered around here, I know. I'll keep watching every week, but the National Arena League, largely driven by a desire to court the casual fantasy fan, is a bad product.

It was transitorily refreshing to see a killer defensive team bitchslap a high-flying "unstoppable" offense in the SB.

is going to lose a bunch of Super Bowls before he's done.

In comment 11990278 GeneInCal said:

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is going to lose a bunch of Super Bowls before he's done.

Nope he is going to win 2 more before he retires.

I agree with your point about evaluating more than the backs of trading cards, which was my initial problem with this thread because it feels like this is all this is.

My disagreement with your post was that I don't think most people on this site (my opinion only) did not mean "Eli is golden forever" as "Eli is the greatest QB I have ever seen play the game" it was "I love Eli for what he has done for this franchise."

Too often lately criticism of Eli's play, or for that matter one game or even one throw, has been interpreted on this site as "You don't appreciate Eli" or "You're stupid for wanting to ditch Eli." What I am trying to say it is possible to love the guy for what he brings to the game and what he has done for the franchise, but still evaluate his performance game to game with a critical eye.

would be completely different, IMO, had it not been for Terrel Davis.

That's how important the run game was for Elway.

I think ben and brees are both more likely at this time to be voted in. Rivers and romo both need to do something to flip the narrative, but both have been immensely productive over the course of the last decade. Frankly its tough to make any argument that eli is in these guys class on a year in year out basis that doesnt start and pretty much end with "his team won 2 sb!" Thats what makes all of these eli comparisons so pointless.

In comment 11990235 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Most closely resembles a durable phil simms. I dont like making the comparison because its too easy, but where each ranked amongst their peers was very similar Eli is going go be an interesting hall of fame case. I tend to think he will make it in, but its going to get crowded at qb. We arent even having this conversation though if not for the superbowls, and i mean both, 1 wouldnt have done it. Im not a fan of ring counting when it comes to judging individuals, personally i think if you cant defend a candidacy without resorting to team accomplishments you have a weak candidacy. But we'll see. And he still has time

QB's who had direct impact in getting you to, and then winning multiple Super Bowls is so incredibly relevant, blood just came out of my eyes.

I don't think there's anyway Eli makes it to the HOF unless he wins another Chip. Then it will be hard not to put him, but right now with how poorly he has played over the last few years, I just don't see it.
The greatest QBs of this era who I think will be locks will be.
Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers.
These are the locks IMO.
After that mayne Ben and then Eli.
Hardly anyone outside of Giant fans regard him as an All time Great. He's a very good QB but the inconsistencies will overshadow 2 Champioship runs no matter how great a time those were.

overshadow him winning 2 Super Bowls in the fashion he did, turn in your Giants pin, go fuck yourself and don't let the door hit you in the ass?

be conducted inside?? ;)

In comment 11990295 MarshallOnMontana said:

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I think ben and brees are both more likely at this time to be voted in. Rivers and romo both need to do something to flip the narrative, but both have been immensely productive over the course of the last decade. Frankly its tough to make any argument that eli is in these guys class on a year in year out basis that doesnt start and pretty much end with "his team won 2 sb!" Thats what makes all of these eli comparisons so pointless.

I cant even think of a single reason outside "look at his stats" that puts RIvers/Romo over Eli. I can agree with Brees/Ben because Brees stats are just over the top with a ring. Ben has similar stats and 2 rings and another appearance.

But the goal is to win or put your team in position to win the ultimate big game and Rivers/Romo failed to do that more often than not. I know it may make a hater of both of them.... but if you are going to put up similar stats over a course of a career (Romo, Rivers, Ben, and Eli will all probably be near each other in yards and TDs) you better have something to go along with it.

Eli and Ben have 2 things that the other two may never see. That does give the advantage. Everyone always says winning a SB is a team sport. But there in no more important position in ALL of sports than the QB position.

that where a person plays doesnt take affect into the stats they produced.

Dome/Warm weather QBs have such an advantage over guys who play in colder, windier conditions year in and year out. I think Brees has played a total of FOUR games under 40 degree weather in his career. Thats just insane.

It's impossible to have an honest discussion around here without dudes behaving like their on the rag.
I recognize and give him credit for the 2 Chips douche bag, but I also recognize his career has been marked with inconsistency and while evaluating him as a HOFer, that is what will keep him out from most voters...who are not Giant fans BTW.

The ones I left blank I didn't know how to figure out. They were Strength of Schedule, Average Rank of Defense Played Against, and Net Passing Yards. If anybody knows how Mike calculated those, please help me out. Also feel free to check my numbers, I'm an Art Teacher, not a Math Teacher.

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Eli and Elway after 10 Years DRAFTED: Eli first overall/traded, Elway first overall/traded RECORD YEAR BEFORE DRAFT: Giants 2003: 4-12 (last), Broncos 1982: 2-7 (last-strike season) RECORD AFTER FIRST FULL SEASON 2005-Giants 11-5 (first), 1984-Broncos 13-3 (first) SUPER BOWLS: Eli 2, Elway 0 TOTAL RECORD: Eli 89-66 .574, Elway 92-54-1 .626* REG SEASON RECORD: Eli 85-66 .563, Elway 89-52-1 .629 PLAYOFF RECORD: Eli 8-3 .727, Elway 7-5 .583 STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE: Eli ____, Elway _____ AVG. RANK OF DEFENSES PLAYED AGAINST (YDS): Eli ____, Elway ____** PASSER RATING: Eli 81.2, Elway 73.7 ATT: Eli 5008, Elway 4339 COMP: Eli 2929, Elway 2375 COMP PCT: Eli 58.5%, Elway 58.4% PASSING YARDS: Eli 35345, Elway 30216 NET PASSING YARDS: Eli ________, Elway _______ YARDS/ATT: Eli 7.1, Elway 7.0 TD: Eli 229, Elway 158 INT: Eli 171, Elway 157 4th QTR/OT COMEBACKS: Eli 30, Elway 29 SACKS/YARDS: Eli 147/1,015, Elway 178/1,349 *I didn’t do it through 88 starts like Mike did, I did it through first ten years. Elway played 8 games less than Eli during that time period. **Elway’s competitors ranked _____ in defense out of 28 teams which equates to ____ against 32 teams.

Will revise.

In comment 11990225 Go Terps said:

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My perspective on Eli Manning's career is that his play in crucial moments is the biggest reason for two of the happiest days in the history of the franchise. And I'm not just talking about winning two Super Bowls with game ending drives (a ridiculous feat that no other player has accomplished and that is severely underappreciated everywhere). I'm also talking about his performance in the playoffs in 2007 and 2011. There are great QBs...all-timers...that have not had one run like that let alone two. I'm not going to repeat for the millionth time where the playoff games were, the QBs he outclassed, etc. I think much of this discussion boils down to a couple questions: What matters to you as a fan? Is it the truly great moments that you enjoy or is it being able to point to the back of a football card at the end of it all? I know where I stand.

You have said it perfectly. I feel the same way.

Will always be a team deal. As well as eli played during those 2 runs (especially 11) this team has no shot of winning either time if the defense wasnt absolutely awesome. Holding the GOAT offense to 14 pts in a sb. Doesnt allow more than 20 points in any playoff game in either year, including facing historic offenses in the 07 pats and 11 packers. We dont win if special teams wasnt a major factor. See 49er game. Rw mcquarters set up the game winning td drive at dallas. Tynes clutch kicking. It is a team deal. A lot of parts have to come together and they absolutely did. Included among them was eli playing very well. A lot has to go right for you to win it all, including getting a little lucky (which we did, and anyone denying that is delusional)

but those 2 months, timely as they were, shouldnt cause anyone to view an otherwise very solid qb as great.

As a fan I fully appreciate that. That is what will get him into the Ring of Honor, no doubt. But if your talking about HOF induction his ENTIRE CAREER is looked at and the only thing that can be said really is that he won 2 SBs which obviously is a team honor even if he was the most important player on the team.

In comment 11990207 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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Elway's pretty much "the prototype" at the QB position. Football scouts just jizzed themselves over Elway. He brought everything to the table. So even though his stats were never that great, the pure talent and ability was always easy to see. And combined with his great team success (2 SB wins, 3 SB losses), the pure talent portion of his legacy overwhelms the "average stats" portion of his legacy. It makes him a really unique player in NFL History. He's thrown into GOAT discussions off of pure talent more than anything else. He was an A++ physical talent who led his teams to 5 Super Bowls. I love Eli but he's not even remotely close as a physical specimen. At his best, he has a really nice power/accuracy combination but there's nothing special about his arm like with Elway. He's also a very slow QB, nothing special about his athleticm like with Elway. Are Elway and Eli more similar than the general public believes? Yes. Does Elway get overrated to a degree due to the mancrush football fans had over his talent? Yes. Does Eli get underrated to a degree because he's viewed as a doofus? Yes. But is Eli Manning on the same level as John Elway? NO.

great post. If they played in the same era, were both coming out of college at the same time, and you had the #1 overall pick with a need at QB, knowing what you know now about how they would turn out as pros, you pick Elway and it's not even close.

like to see their rushing yards comparison as part of that analysis. because the ability to pull the ball down and take off for a first down is an important weapon in the QB's arsenal.

manning 465 yards and 5 tds

that I mean in every possible way, which is not what I mean. Clearly, athletically, Elway was far superior of an athlete. I just feel they have similar traits, and are viewed against their peers in similar fashion.

Elway was known for being the king of the 4th Quarter Comeback in his era. I'd argue that Eli is kind of the 4th Quarter Comeback in this era.

Elway was never the flashiest player in comparison to the Marino'ss, Montana's, or any of the other QB's that were the stats monsters of the day. He was just considered to be a clutch competitor. I feel like Eli fits a similar mold.

In 1992, Elway was considered done, until Jim Fassel came on and "fixed" him. Eli, the past two seasons same thing. Will McAdoo do the same for Eli?

Their career trajectories, to me, are similar. Their clutchness is similar. The way they are/were viewed in the media is similar. Up until that point, Elway couldn't win the big one despite several attempts. Eli is inconsistent.

I just find the comparison interesting for my own reasons. As many have said previously, Elway is often overrated in history. Eli, to me, is often underrated.

.

In comment 11990366 Les in TO said:

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manning 465 yards and 5 tds

Actually, through the first ten years it's:

Elway: 2282 yards, 22 TD's

But your point remains.

In comment 11990345 Geeman said:

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As a fan I fully appreciate that. That is what will get him into the Ring of Honor, no doubt. But if your talking about HOF induction his ENTIRE CAREER is looked at and the only thing that can be said really is that he won 2 SBs which obviously is a team honor even if he was the most important player on the team.

One losing season as a full time starter and probably top 10 in yards/tds for a career helps too, doesn't it?

are similar in their fourth quarter clutchness and were the victims of some questionable surrounding talent/coaching at times. they are also both "winners". they both have strong arms. but elway was far more consistent and made far less mistakes and was able to make plays with his athleticism.

i think eli is actually closer to phil simms than elway - pocket passers with strong arms who can get to the playoffs and championship games when they have a strong running attack and a defense playing at a high level.

First off, Eli isnt as good as Elway, no way. And there is no shame in that.

But in regards to playing with talent, shouldnt that be looked at as well when it comes to how one performs?

Romo has played with two HOF locks, and another guy bound for Canton.
Rivers played with two HOFs as well.

Eli played with 1 skill position guy who made the pro bowl more than once. Tiki. And that was the first two years he was in the league. Shockey, Cruz, and Smith only made the pro bowl once. Prime Nicks never made the pro bowl. Toomer didnt either. Its not farfetched to say that sometimes you are only as good as the people you are surrounded with.

So lets take out Brady, Peyton, Rodgers and Favre. Out of all the next group of guys in the mix (Eli, Ben, Brees, Romo, Rivers, Flacco, Ryan, McNabb and whoever else I am missing).....

What have they done that raised the level of their teams play? It can be argued that Ben had awesome defenses as well. The like of Ward, Brown, Miller to throw too and he is on the verge of missing the playoffs for the 4th time in 6 years. Is that a knock on him? Of course not. I believe he is a HOF too.

Brees has a ring, but has thrown up a lot of stinkers as well, and playing in warm weather plus the dome would raise anyone's stats. Rivers and romo played their entire careers with HOF type players and in warm conditions and won what with it? Romo has won ONE playoff game. Thats not raising the level of play of your team when its needed the most. Rivers the same thing. McNabb was known to choke a time or two as well. Ryan not even worthy of even being discussed.

I have no problem saying Eli isnt as worthy as Rodgers, Peyton, Brady, and Favre because he isnt. I think he belongs in the mix with Brees and Ben. Him and Ben will always be tied together due to draft class, SB trophies, and putting up a lot of yards and TDs. The only thing that really hurts Eli is the INTs, but think of it this way....

Are we 2x SB champ with him as QB if he didnt take those same chances that aid off.

I dont think Eli gets in the first or 2nd year, but I think eventually, overtime..... he will be in the HOF.

In comment 11990339 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Will always be a team deal. As well as eli played during those 2 runs (especially 11) this team has no shot of winning either time if the defense wasnt absolutely awesome. Holding the GOAT offense to 14 pts in a sb. Doesnt allow more than 20 points in any playoff game in either year, including facing historic offenses in the 07 pats and 11 packers. We dont win if special teams wasnt a major factor. See 49er game. Rw mcquarters set up the game winning td drive at dallas. Tynes clutch kicking. It is a team deal. A lot of parts have to come together and they absolutely did. Included among them was eli playing very well. A lot has to go right for you to win it all, including getting a little lucky (which we did, and anyone denying that is delusional) but those 2 months, timely as they were, shouldnt cause anyone to view an otherwise very solid qb as great.

so it's not a team deal when you criticize Peyton for his playoffs appearances?

outside of the 2 "improbable" runs. They were sensational and speak volumes for him as a player, but the fact that he has 0 post-season wins outside of them speak to his inconsistency.

To me the most disappointing moment of his career was the playoff loss to Philly in 08 (the one that gave rise to Flounder). Despite Plax's idiocy, that was a very solid Giants team and Eli played terribly in that game.

Most agree he has 4-6 years left. 3 years in a row now with no playoffs. How long will that streak continue? Many here arguing the Giants are "re-building".

Ive never knocked peyton on strictly ring count. Ive knocked him for his play individually in many spots, and he deserved it. I dont see your point. Its not like ive ever argued peyton isnt in the goat discussion

That paints eli mannings general support level over his career as clearly inferior to romo or rivers. Lets not forget manning wanted absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the situation rivers has embraced over the last decade, dealing with cheap and petty ownership who consistently undermine the teams best interest, especially come negotiation time. Eli has had great support over the years. When he doesnt, we see how low his floor can be, as he displayed last season which was literally one of the worst years in nfl history adjusted for era

In comment 11990587 MarshallOnMontana said:

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That paints eli mannings general support level over his career as clearly inferior to romo or rivers. Lets not forget manning wanted absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the situation rivers has embraced over the last decade, dealing with cheap and petty ownership who consistently undermine the teams best interest, especially come negotiation time. Eli has had great support over the years. When he doesnt, we see how low his floor can be, as he displayed last season which was literally one of the worst years in nfl history adjusted for era

I don't think Rivers has much to argue about, he had a TE and RB at the same time who were both two of the best of their generation at that position. In fact, you could make a case that his team was for a two year period the best stocked in pro football. And still came up short......

Rivers to me is a stats QB.

And while we will never know, I don't think he leads the Giants to a SB if they switched positions.

And in 2007 the great ldt was watching from the sidelines while rivers gutted it out on a torn acl.

They beat the pats in 06 if not for 2 huge fumbles in the 2nd half that had nothing to do with rivers at all

calling someone a stats qb is just lazy analysis. You dont accomplish what rivers has and continues to do year in year out as a pure passer without being an excellent qb. To act like none of that matters because his team doesnt have a ring is the type of anslysis that will forever make these conversations pointless

seasons? I'm too lazy to look it up, but it seems like it doesn't happen with him. I know the AFC West hasn't been a powerhouse conference, but Rivers has been carrying that franchise on his back with a revolving door of skill position players.

In comment 11990608 MarshallOnMontana said:

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And in 2007 the great ldt was watching from the sidelines while rivers gutted it out on a torn acl. They beat the pats in 06 if not for 2 huge fumbles in the 2nd half that had nothing to do with rivers at all calling someone a stats qb is just lazy analysis. You dont accomplish what rivers has and continues to do year in year out as a pure passer without being an excellent qb. To act like none of that matters because his team doesnt have a ring is the type of anslysis that will forever make these conversations pointless

He also threw a horrific INT to Roosevelt Colvin and took a bad sack early in the game that took them out of FG range as well. You cant discount that either.

Do we get to talk about tom coughlin v norv turner v wade phillips?

When you talk about a decade plus career there is going to be some variances in the quality of surrounding talent. But for the bulk of mannings career, especially pre 2011, the giants were the dominant rushing attack in the nfl. It wasnt until relatively recently that our passing game was more feared than our rushing attack. Only 2 defenses in the whole league have more takeaways than us during eli's time as a starter. When people think defensive lines of this era, the giants are unquestionably the unit that comes before anyone else. A hall of famer and several other multi time pro bowlers who played on incredible levels during the playoff runs. Until very recently we have consistently had strong offensive lines (although they may have been overrated in pass protection a bit). Skill position wise he has had above average talent for the most part. It has gone to shit the past couple years, but we look like we might have found the most talented one yet in odb

In comment 11990619 David in LA said:

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seasons? I'm too lazy to look it up, but it seems like it doesn't happen with him. I know the AFC West hasn't been a powerhouse conference, but Rivers has been carrying that franchise on his back with a revolving door of skill position players.

He missed the postseason the 2010, 2011, and 2012 years. And they may trouble making it this year. So that might mean 4 times in 5 years.

In comment 11990685 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Do we get to talk about tom coughlin v norv turner v wade phillips? When you talk about a decade plus career there is going to be some variances in the quality of surrounding talent. But for the bulk of mannings career, especially pre 2011, the giants were the dominant rushing attack in the nfl. It wasnt until relatively recently that our passing game was more feared than our rushing attack. Only 2 defenses in the whole league have more takeaways than us during eli's time as a starter. When people think defensive lines of this era, the giants are unquestionably the unit that comes before anyone else. A hall of famer and several other multi time pro bowlers who played on incredible levels during the playoff runs. Until very recently we have consistently had strong offensive lines (although they may have been overrated in pass protection a bit). Skill position wise he has had above average talent for the most part. It has gone to shit the past couple years, but we look like we might have found the most talented one yet in odb

Norv Turner is one of the best offensive minds in the last 30 years.

Its too bad he wasnt rivers oc. And rivers has remained crazy productive since his firing

i know eli is your guy, but please dont even begin to argue having norv turner as your head coach is an advantage compared to coughlin

In comment 11990695 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Its too bad he wasnt rivers oc. And rivers has remained crazy productive since his firing i know eli is your guy, but please dont even begin to argue having norv turner as your head coach is an advantage compared to coughlin

I am not going to argue that, but I will say Turner guiding Rivers was a positive thing in his career.

have never been in my kitchen and are married to a woman I'd like to bang. The similarities are fucking uncanny.

fans dismiss stats to prop up Eli....well up to this year when it was all about the stats.

a testament to how polarizing Eli is.

However, all I did was update a pre-existing thread from 2009.

I find it interesting that on BBI, by various posters, Eli and Elway have been linked together just by mention. Goes all the way back to 2008.

So for people that think this is a me thing, think again. I certainly have my thoughts about the subject, but I was not even close to the original person on BBI to link them statistically. That was a done a few times through the years before I ever brought it up.

Don't believe me, look for yourself.

is that there are some posters on this very thread, who also posted on the threads from the past...

They did not seem to think it was a bad comparison at that time.

Understandably, five years or so have passed, but five years ago it was not considered a bad comparison when I read the threads.

For the record, I did not post on any of the threads.

but it really pisses me off when some of you marginalize Eli's Superbowl runs - both runs had world class performances by Eli - Capped off by arguably 2 of the greatest performances in a Superbowl of all times - including two plays that will last through the centuries - those performance do make Eli Hall of Fame material - I also disagree vehemently about the perceptions a lot of you spread about Eli - Eli has been very constant through out his career - with the exception of the past two years - and I maintain that - there is no (underscore) QB period - who could have put together a better performance than Eli given his offensive line

You could be talking about me (not sure). Ive long thought john elway has been a bit overrated historically. I dont think a comparison between the two is an insult to elway (although physically elway blows eli away). Im just saying comparing them statistically is not apples to apples.

I do think it's weird how quickly people dismiss this comparison, though, despite some pretty similar traits between the two, as well as a similar career arc.

As always, statistics only get you so far.

has to be one of the stupidest statements that is repeated around here!!

In comment 11990806 gmenatlarge said:

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has to be one of the stupidest statements that is repeated around here!!

I agree with this.

How is Elway remembered if you take away his two Superbowl runs?

How about not take away 95 percent of his career in order to paint him as some legend because of two months where the giants played extraordinary football. If your case for a guys greatness begins and ends with lowest common denominator fan nonsense like ring count, the guy you argue for isnt giving you much to work with.

He would still be a hofer just like a warren moon. A dan fouts. A jim kelley. A dan marino. With eli manning, the conversation starts and pretty much ends with the sb's, there is no conversation without them. For elway it was a cherry on top of an already hof legacy

Here's a timely article. Written today....

"Reminder: Eli Manning is a Hall of Famer".

By a beat writer in Connecticut. And yes, there is an Elway mention.

Quote:

Just the opposite of the signature plays he made in winning two Super Bowls. Two -- that’s as many as John Elway, Dan Marino and Shane Falco combined. Am I saying he’s on the same level as Elway, Marino or Falco? No, no, maybe. But the fact remains that no one who has won two Super Bowl MVPs is not in the Hall of Fame.

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This is a golden era for NFL quarterbacks. Thanks to relaxed rules that have opened up offenses, any quarterback with a working arm can now throw for more than 5,000 yards. This has skewed stats, but the fact remains that these quarterbacks are going to Canton when their careers are over: Rodgers, Brady, Peyton, Brees, Roethlisberger and Eli Manning.

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Eli is never mentioned among the league’s elite QBs, which makes sense because he’s not elite. Are Big Ben and Eli the statistical equivalents of the other four mentioned? Of course not. But if their careers ended tomorrow, all six of them would be bound for Canton. Rodgers, Brady, Peyton and Brees because they’re elite passers who won titles; Eli and Big Ben because they’re winners. That’s the standard for the NFL Hall of Fame. Need proof? Look at how many Steelers are enshrined, some of whom are there because they performed best on the biggest stage, but who otherwise had pedestrian career numbers. Cough * Lynn Swann.

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So, yeah, Eli Manning, three-time NFL leader in interceptions and possessor of an 81.5 career passer rating, is a future Hall of Famer. Does he deserve to be? Who said anything about “deserve”? He’ll make the Hall of Fame because he’s a Manning who won two Super Bowl MVPs in the nation’s largest media market.

Link - ( New Window )

I don't care what kind of HOF'er he is. A HOF'er is a HOF'er.

if you're examining his career, by definition you have to look beyond the 2 Super Bowls.

And there it's been a mixed bag with some very low lows (this play comes to mind) and with difficulty qualifying for the post-season.

Regardless, much is left to be written. He doesn't even need to win another ring to cement his legacy. But getting into the playoffs is a good start.

Weve never seen a test case like him at qb though. All of the qbs with 2 plus sb rings were perennial pro bowl qbs during their time with the exception of plunkett (the only one not in the hof) and bradshaw (but he won 4)., eli's career is clearly superior to plunkett. It could get much more crowded at qb behind him though. The only modern names being bandied about here are 2004 and prior draft class qbs. But guys coming up behind him, especially taken in those 08 to 12 classes, are going to create a logjam.

and he has quietly moved up the all time TD list among QB's. That will be so missed by Giant fans after Eli, durability at the QB position. Having a QB miss games here and there will be an annoying nuisance that we have all been spoiled with.

get into the hall for the two amazing SB runs and for making two of the most memorable throws in SB history. and though i don't think he's on the same level as an elway, i think HOF for manning is deserved.

There's talk on this thread that you can't compare eras because the passing statistics are obviously inflated, or "on steroids" as Joe called it...

So essentially, you'd think that Eli's pure passing statistics, yards, TD's, INT's would all be substantially bigger than Elways, and they are....

However, the INT's are not. Can anybody explain that? Through ten years, Eli has thrown 71 more TD's than Elway. Expected. Is it interesting to anybody else that he's only thrown 14 more INT's?

Eli is always knocked for his INT totals. He's led the league in INT's three times. Elway through 10 years threw more INT's than TD's 4 times, and tied INT's and TD's once.

Seems like Elway threw more than his fair share of INT's, as well.

and they're actually higher than Elway's through thier first ten years.

Dan Marino: 165 INT's

Jim Kelly: 175 (only counted Jim's ten NFL seasons)

And for another comparison, I ran Joe Montana's as well:

Joe Montana: 108 INT's

So Dan Marino, 6 less INT's through 10 years, Jim Kelly 4 more INT's through 10 years. Joe Montana significantly less than anybody through ten years.

And just for fun, Boomer Esiason through first ten years:

Boomer: 140 INT's.

I posted a link yesterday that i'll post again below. If you scroll down to the "passing league averages per team per season" section, they list the league average passer production from every season. INTs are being thrown at their lowest rate ever too, everything is trending qbs ways now. And im just talking about raw interception totals which are down even with pass attempts skyrocketing. The int% this season is an all time low 2.5% (Int's are only being thrown on 2.5% of pass attempts this season). It was unprecedented for this number to ever be under 3% until very recently, but now it is every year
link - ( New Window )

is that the TD% is just as high in several years in the 80's as it is now. What does that mean?

I'm not a math guy, so perhaps you could put those percentages into some perspective for me.

Im looking over the list, the 4.7% td% this season is an all time high (meaning tds are being thrown on 4.7% of pass attempts). Highest in the 80s was 1987 4.5%, but that was the strike year, not sure what to make of that. The td% doesnt seem to have changed much over time (though it has gone up) but what has changed in passing attempts skyrocketing, which has put td pass totals through the roof even if tds are not necessarily being thrown significantly more on a per attempt basis (probably because passing games are more methodical now post walsh influence). By the end of this year, the 7 highest td pass seasons will have all occured since 2004

Highest in the sb era i mean, not all time

than they were in Elway's time. That's why Eli's raw INT differential isn't quite as high as you'd expect. It's just tough to compare Eli straight up to Elway because of the different eras.

INTs are a huge negative for Eli's legacy. Eli has thrown 247 TD passes, this is how he compares with all the QBs who debuted post-1990 who have thrown 200 TD passes. In terms of TD-INT differential and W-L differential (games above/below .500)

Code:

QB -------- TD-INT diff ---- W-L diff Peyton ------- +293 ----------- +98 Brady -------- +244 ----------- +111 (Brady and Peyton are arguably Top 2 all-time) Brees -------- +195 ----------- +33 Favre -------- +172 ----------- +74 Rodgers ------ +161 ----------- +33 (These 3 are all 1st-ballot HOFers, Brees the worst but still worthy) Rivers ------- +130 ----------- +32 (HOF candidate but needs a ring) Romo --------- +119 ----------- +23 (Weakest HOF case of this group but a ring would change that) McNabb ------- +117 ----------- +36 (HOF candidate, great team success + Rushing impact helps) BigBen ------- +115 ----------- +51 (HOF lock due to rings) Warner ------- +80 ------------ +17 (HOF candidate based on peak performance) Palmer ------- +69 ------------ -3 (Not close to HOF) E. Manning --- +65 ------------ +15 (HOF candidate mainly due to those two epic rings) Hasselbeck --- +53 ------------ +8 (Not close to HOF) Bledsoe ------ +45 ------------ +3 (Not close to HOF) Collins ------ +12 ------------ -18 (LOL, what a true compiler looks like)

Eli has 65 more TDs than INTs and he's led his team to 15 games over .500 over his career. Both numbers are far closer to the bottom of this list than they are to the top.

...

Rivers -- Romo -- McNabb -- Big Ben

vs.

Palmer -- Hasselbeck -- Bledsoe

Most of us believe that Eli belongs on that top group with Rivers/Romo/McNabb/Ben, but in terms of stats AND W/L record Eli falls well short of that group. All those guys have a TD-INT differential of well over 100 while Eli has a difference of 65. All 4 QBs have also led their teams to 23+ Wins over .500, with all but Romo 32+ games above .500. Eli 88-73 record as a starter is just 15 games above.

Statistically, Eli just is not in that former group. He's far more similar to the latter group that includes Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck, and Drew Bledsoe. Warner is completely unique and honestly deserves his own tier due to how Peak-based his HOF claim is.

I find Palmer, Bledsoe, and Eli to be an interesting grouping because all were former #1 overall picks. People believe that Bledsoe had a disappointing career. People also believe that Palmer's injuries kept him from reaching his potential. On paper, these are the two guys that look the most similar to Eli in terms of career path as #1 picks. And both are considered kind of disappointments, although still good starting QBs. Hasselbeck was selected in the 6th round and everyone considers him as a guy who had a nice career but isn't a HOFer.

Eli delivered us those 2 rings and thus he can never be called a disappointment. But the rest of his career besides those 2 epic runs does leave a lot to be desired.

Eli just hasn't been a very consistent player over his career. Guys like Big Ben, Rivers, McNabb, and even Romo have been more consistently great than Eli has. On an annual basis, he has absolutely not played at a consistent HOF level.

That being said I'd take 2011 Eli over any single season of any of those 4 QBs (Ben, Rivers, McNabb, Romo). It isn't even close for me, although statistically the other 4 have probably had comparable or better years. Eli was just a man on a mission that season and had what is probably the clutchest QB season in NFL history, capped off by ANOTHER cold blooded game winning 4th quarter Super Bowl drive. And I'd also take Eli over all 4 of those guys in a 4th quarter comeback situation.

Eli at his best, which he showed in 2011 and has flashed in 4th quarters since he was a rookie, is better than Rivers/Ben/Romo/McNabb at their best. There's just no doubt in my mind about that. Eli at his best is clearly a HOF level player in my eyes. But he's rarely "at his best" and has been a far more inconsistent player than the Rivers/Ben/Romo/McNabb bunch, which is why those 4 guys have better stats and better regular season records.

thanks for taking the time to write that.

In comment 11991796 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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Eli delivered us those 2 rings and thus he can never be called a disappointment. But the rest of his career besides those 2 epic runs does leave a lot to be desired. Eli just hasn't been a very consistent player over his career. Guys like Big Ben, Rivers, McNabb, and even Romo have been more consistently great than Eli has. On an annual basis, he has absolutely not played at a consistent HOF level. That being said I'd take 2011 Eli over any single season of any of those 4 QBs (Ben, Rivers, McNabb, Romo). It isn't even close for me, although statistically the other 4 have probably had comparable or better years. Eli was just a man on a mission that season and had what is probably the clutchest QB season in NFL history, capped off by ANOTHER cold blooded game winning 4th quarter Super Bowl drive. And I'd also take Eli over all 4 of those guys in a 4th quarter comeback situation. Eli at his best, which he showed in 2011 and has flashed in 4th quarters since he was a rookie, is better than Rivers/Ben/Romo/McNabb at their best. There's just no doubt in my mind about that. Eli at his best is clearly a HOF level player in my eyes. But he's rarely "at his best" and has been a far more inconsistent player than the Rivers/Ben/Romo/McNabb bunch, which is why those 4 guys have better stats and better regular season records.

Amen. I think he gets into the HOF because of his "best moments", but you've summarized where he stands relative to other QBs perfectly.

is much better than Rivers/Romo/McNabb.

Its not even close to a debate and an insult to Ben to say that they are.

McNabb, Romo, Rivers are all great statistical QBs that all played with great talent and came up short when the game matters most. Ben had ONE really bad SB, but other than that played well when the situation was called upon.

what was Favre's differential?

Quote:

Eli delivered us those 2 rings and thus he can never be called a disappointment. But the rest of his career besides those 2 epic runs does leave a lot to be desired.

This is an interesting point - when we traded for Eli, I thought we got a guy who would be a perennial MVP candidate, consistent top three QB throughout his career, which he simply isn't. But, we got (at least) two Super Bowls out of it, which is more than you can expect from drafting a QB.

To your point, Eli's had a weird career.

Yep. Weird career, indeed.

he's included in that list.

Amazing how Rodgers is already right there with him.

.

In comment 11991801 dep026 said:

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is much better than Rivers/Romo/McNabb. Its not even close to a debate and an insult to Ben to say that they are. McNabb, Romo, Rivers are all great statistical QBs that all played with great talent and came up short when the game matters most. Ben had ONE really bad SB, but other than that played well when the situation was called upon.

What talent did McNabb play with? The one year he had T.O. he went to the Super Bowl. Who else? Desean Jackson? Duce Staley? Brent Celek?

In comment 11991830 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:

Quote:

In comment 11991801 dep026 said: Quote: is much better than Rivers/Romo/McNabb. Its not even close to a debate and an insult to Ben to say that they are. McNabb, Romo, Rivers are all great statistical QBs that all played with great talent and came up short when the game matters most. Ben had ONE really bad SB, but other than that played well when the situation was called upon. What talent did McNabb play with? The one year he had T.O. he went to the Super Bowl. Who else? Desean Jackson? Duce Staley? Brent Celek?

Brian Westbrook, Tra Thomas, Jon Runyan. And his numbers the year with no Owens were all to the pooint of being good. He was inaccurate as Eli if not worse, never threw a lot of TDs nor a lot of INTs either. Never cracked 4,000 yards. played all 16 games once in his last 8 years.

Putting McNabb in this discussion with Ben is just wrong.

Big Ben over the others as well. I even called him a "HOF lock" whereas I call the other 3 merely "HOF candidates".

But I was just ranking them based on the TD-INT differential. And I do think they're probably closer than you think dep. Ben's defensive support has been amazing. Out of all the QBs on that list, he's had the best D over his career.

In comment 11991837 dep026 said:

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In comment 11991830 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said: Quote: In comment 11991801 dep026 said: Quote: is much better than Rivers/Romo/McNabb. Its not even close to a debate and an insult to Ben to say that they are. McNabb, Romo, Rivers are all great statistical QBs that all played with great talent and came up short when the game matters most. Ben had ONE really bad SB, but other than that played well when the situation was called upon. What talent did McNabb play with? The one year he had T.O. he went to the Super Bowl. Who else? Desean Jackson? Duce Staley? Brent Celek? Brian Westbrook, Tra Thomas, Jon Runyan. And his numbers the year with no Owens were all to the pooint of being good. He was inaccurate as Eli if not worse, never threw a lot of TDs nor a lot of INTs either. Never cracked 4,000 yards. played all 16 games once in his last 8 years. Putting McNabb in this discussion with Ben is just wrong.

dep, not arguing the sentiment, just how you got there. If anything, the talent angle is a bigger indictment of Romo than McNabb.