but frankly he has been as good as anyone on that OL. That's not to say he has been very good, but I'd rather let him play than put Adam Snyder in there.
First, they signed Schwartz to play RG and they have a terrible player currently at that position. The logical thing to do would be to play him there. Second, they have a RT in Brewer who they were, at least at one time, high on. Let him play RT. They can't possibly get worse play from him than they did from Brown last week. Lastly they drafted Richburg to be their OC and their current OC is playing awfully. Again, the logical thing to do would play Richburg at OC now. Personally, I don't think he has been all that bad at LG, so he is the odd choice to bench.
There are too many personnel moves which are completely indefensible, as Mook said. Our season in over and instead of playing young guys and building towards the future this is the type of stupidity we get.
Thanks for some great years Coach, but it's time to go.
the decisions made by the coaching staff this season are mind boggling
Although Walton has been less than stellar , he does seem to know the protections well, I recall a quote from another lineman supporting his understanding in this regard. Now if only he could learn to better handle A gap pressure....
Brewer should be given the shot at RT, in my opinion, but let's see how this works. The coaches watch practices, not us.
and neither one is replacing John Jerry? Hahaha. That speaks volumes about just how awful this line is. I love TC but he's done some weird shit with the OL over the years, making a horrid situation even worse at times. My fear all along is that Richburg would wind up on the bench.
Classic Coughlin, bench the rookie in favor of the vet
When saying this, but I dont hate this move. I would MUCH rather see what we have in someone else at RT then have Brown there. From what I recall, Schwartz was mentioned as someone that could play RT.
I am also a big Richburg fan as well, and while I like to see him keep playing, the fact of the matter is he has not been excellent at LG nor will he be playing there in the future. So throwing him out there for the sake of "experience" doesnt make a whole lot of sense since he is projected to be the starting C for a long time.
Again, I agree that Jerry sucks and probably shouldnt be playing, but im interested on seeing how Schwartz plays at RT.
to warrant consideration for a starting spot this year. Granted, he didn't have a great pre-season. But, then again, neither did anyone ahead of him on the depth chart.
The injury situation has to be more than what we know.
John 'The Sieve' Jerry?
Is this any way a 'financial' move? Player contract bonus? Option clause? etc?
Nothing like taking out your 'ok' ROOKIE 2nd rd pick and leaving in your 6 year veteran sieve.
Never thought you could make a mess out of a mess.
RE: the decisions made by the coaching staff this season are mind boggling
There are too many personnel moves which are completely indefensible, as Mook said. Our season in over and instead of playing young guys and building towards the future this is the type of stupidity we get.
Thanks for some great years Coach, but it's time to go.
Afree 100% He is to loyal to aging vets. He should bench Jerry and Walton and start Richburg at center.
First of all, there is no loyalty to Walton or Jerry...they are new Giants.
Second of all, rookies have played all year for the Giants. Even Williams has played over the vet Hillis.
My guess is Richburg is wearing down. He said before the bye he had already played a full college season in terms of games and was feeling it. It may be showing up in the run game.
Exactly why this team needs to move on from Coughlin.
This is going to be a painful game to watch, Snyder over Richburg is beyond stupid and many expected this to happen to our second best OL once Schwartz came back.
My guess is Richburg is wearing down. He said before the bye he had already played a full college season in terms of games and was feeling it. It may be showing up in the run game.
First of all, there is no loyalty to Walton or Jerry...they are new Giants.
Second of all, rookies have played all year for the Giants. Even Williams has played over the vet Hillis.
My guess is Richburg is wearing down. He said before the bye he had already played a full college season in terms of games and was feeling it. It may be showing up in the run game.
Then how do you explain Jerry playing over Mosely? Or Kiwi over Moore? Or playing Snee for 2 years when he couldn't even move. Or playing Diehl when he was a human turnstile?
Exactly why this team needs to move on from Coughlin.
This is going to be a painful game to watch, Snyder over Richburg is beyond stupid and many expected this to happen to our second best OL once Schwartz came back.
Didn't think Snyder played too poorly last time when Richburg got hurt.
Love how some of the clowns are saying things like "Classic TC"
who was on the bench to replace Snee and Diehl? Mitch Petrus? Brewer?
Defensive coaches keep saying Moore is messing up in run defense. 3 out of 4 last opponents have been heavy run teams. Moore played more against Colts.
who was on the bench to replace Snee and Diehl? Mitch Petrus? Brewer?
Defensive coaches keep saying Moore is messing up in run defense. 3 out of 4 last opponents have been heavy run teams. Moore played more against Colts.
kiwi sucks against the run... so eric the issue isn't whether moore is good or bad against it....we are playing a guy that also sucks bad ahead of him and that guy has no potential or future.
Just wait until they play Schwartz out of position at RT
BlueHurricane : 11/17/2014 1:29 pm : link : reply
and leave Jerry at RG. I can see it happening and it will be yet another misuse of the o-lineman on this team.
but we'll never know it if we don't play him. And even a bust would be playing better than Kiwi right now....who might be the worst starting DE in football at this point. He's getting blown so far off the LOS it looks like he's moved back to LB.
they are just trying to plug the leaking ship at this point, the more disturbing thing about all of this is that Brandon Mosley and James Brewer must be total garbage.
John Jerry has had decent games, but he has been dreadful in 2 or 3 contests.
Eric - you started a thread earlier in the week that he should be benched. I'm sure you were looking at the line and zeroing in on who wasn't performing.
If we are evaluating correctly.......then it's time for TC to go with this change.
1) they don't perform In practice which is a glorified walk through... and is stuck behind a terrible football player but great citizen. however he is a bright spot on special teams where he actually gets consistent PT. hmmmm... give the guy confidence in a spot and he performs.
2) plays guard when hes a center... fantastic.
I would not care if the guys ahead of them were somewhat solid. both might be the worst at their positions in ALL of football.
who was on the bench to replace Snee and Diehl? Mitch Petrus? Brewer?
Defensive coaches keep saying Moore is messing up in run defense. 3 out of 4 last opponents have been heavy run teams. Moore played more against Colts.
Thank you!!! I can't believe how many posters act as if they had the 7 blocks of granite in waiting on the bench. They had (have) shit! Snee and Diehl did their best and gave everything they had left. It's not their fault that Reese and co. didn't draft or acquire adequate replacements. It was already apparent in the 2011 SB drive that the OL was on fumes.
Maybe the Giants see Schwartz as the future RT next year
Then Reese and Ross need to be shown the fucking door along with everyone else in the scouting department.
How many top round guys can you possibly draft who do not contribute a thing to your roster. Wilson and Jones are bad luck but when you throw them in with Austin, Holsey, Jernnigan, Brewer, Robinson, Dillard, Sintim and Barden the top four rounds of our drafts for the previous years have been a colossal disaster.
be clear, I'm not calling Richburg a bust...but I've shown in recent game reviews where he has screwed up too. In other words, he hasn't been "good". Was he as bad as Jerry last week? No way. But he didn't play well either.
Richburg is going to have to play a lot better in 2015 to justify his 2nd round selection.
And Moore has yet to make any impact plays in the snaps he has received. I think he had 18 against the 49ers. Something like 25 against Colts. He hardly played in Seattle.
and head coach don't know how to develop players. I thinks this is more of the problem.
Funny the same guys developed Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara as starters, and made Kevin Boothe into a useful backup and plugged in guys like Shawn Andrews at different times successfully. Wouldn't be that those guys were better players would it?
1) they don't perform In practice which is a glorified walk through... and is stuck behind a terrible football player but great citizen. however he is a bright spot on special teams where he actually gets consistent PT. hmmmm... give the guy confidence in a spot and he performs.
2) plays guard when hes a center... fantastic.
I would not care if the guys ahead of them were somewhat solid. both might be the worst at their positions in ALL of football.
Exactly. How much can you learn about and offensive lineman in practice when they don't even practice in pads anymore? They benched Jernigan and when he finally played he actually showed some promise.
How anyone can defend these types of moves - which happen every year - is totally beyond me.
And Snee's backups may have sucked but Snee was playing when he COULD NOT MOVE because of his hip. So don't give me the BS that he was better than his backups....we put a damn cripple out there out of pure loyalty. Same shit with Diehl.
by any means, but part of his problem and what makes him look even worse than he normally is, is how terrible and confused Justin Pugh has looked this year.
1) they don't perform In practice which is a glorified walk through... and is stuck behind a terrible football player but great citizen. however he is a bright spot on special teams where he actually gets consistent PT. hmmmm... give the guy confidence in a spot and he performs.
2) plays guard when hes a center... fantastic.
I would not care if the guys ahead of them were somewhat solid. both might be the worst at their positions in ALL of football.
Exactly. How much can you learn about and offensive lineman in practice when they don't even practice in pads anymore? They benched Jernigan and when he finally played he actually showed some promise.
How anyone can defend these types of moves - which happen every year - is totally beyond me.
And Snee's backups may have sucked but Snee was playing when he COULD NOT MOVE because of his hip. So don't give me the BS that he was better than his backups....we put a damn cripple out there out of pure loyalty. Same shit with Diehl.
Same shit with O'Hara too, when he looked like he was blocking on skates. Don't blame the players, they're out there playing hurt, it is ultimately up to the coach to not put them in those situations. Again, everyone wants to push Reese out the door...maybe the coaches are failing to develop the talent we're drafting?
1) they don't perform In practice which is a glorified walk through... and is stuck behind a terrible football player but great citizen. however he is a bright spot on special teams where he actually gets consistent PT. hmmmm... give the guy confidence in a spot and he performs.
2) plays guard when hes a center... fantastic.
I would not care if the guys ahead of them were somewhat solid. both might be the worst at their positions in ALL of football.
Exactly. How much can you learn about and offensive lineman in practice when they don't even practice in pads anymore? They benched Jernigan and when he finally played he actually showed some promise.
How anyone can defend these types of moves - which happen every year - is totally beyond me.
And Snee's backups may have sucked but Snee was playing when he COULD NOT MOVE because of his hip. So don't give me the BS that he was better than his backups....we put a damn cripple out there out of pure loyalty. Same shit with Diehl.
That's idiotic. No NFL coach is going to play anybody out of loyalty if he has a better, healthier, younger option in place. You're saying that Brewer and Moseley were better? They can't even get a uniform when John fucking Jerry is starting and Charles Fucking Brown replaces Pugh. Dallas Reynolds? Mitch Petrus? Please.
but given I disagree with everything they are doing... its the one "hope" I can have that would come from what is just terrible management of talent evaluation.
i.e. not even giving yourself a chance to evaluate guys at their potential position
when you bring up Moseley and brewer... or past experiences....
this is about richburg not playing center this year... and Walton sucking at football...
and moore getting no legit consistent snaps.... while kiwi sucks at football...
Mosley and Brewer are brought up because others are saying that Coughlin wouldn't bench Snee. Maybe he would not have had he had a great alternative, but it does not appear he had ANY alternative.
Why in the world are giving him a shot. He will make the late stages of Diehl look like Larry Allen.
How did Mosely go from potential starter in camp and not looking terrible (better than Schwartz) to getting injured to not even able to sniff the field once healthy?
my response to that regarding Moore is
1. can we really 100% trust the judgement of this staff based on there past decisions?
2. Judging how poorly the run defense has been, can Moore really be that much worse?
He may as well be out there getting experience.
I am in agreement with you there...
im saying people making my argument for the current move are diminishing their case bringing up Moseley and brewer who are not 2nd round picks with a guy playing in front of them who has ZERO connection to the giants and is bad at football
With Pugh's status in doubt for Sunday you need Schwartz to play RT. If we had a healthy Pugh this weekend, it is just as likely that Snyder replaces Richburgh, and Schwartz replaces Jerry, giving you a starting OL of Beatty, Snyder, Walton, Jerry, and Schwartz.
Sure Richburgh is the future at OC and Guard is not his best position, but I can't blame the coaching staff for not wanting to leave the OL calls to a rookie OC. Eric's point is also a good one. Richburg has nearly played a full college student in full time duty at Guard, he might need a breather.
Yet they never use him on the edge or even a delayed blitz.
If I was fewell this week I do what Washington did to Dallas and blitz guys off the edge on both sides of Romo.
my response to that regarding Moore is
1. can we really 100% trust the judgement of this staff based on there past decisions?
2. Judging how poorly the run defense has been, can Moore really be that much worse?
He may as well be out there getting experience.
I think the coaching staff's ability to evaluate talent is better than we give them credit for. Name a player they gave up on that went on to do bigger and better things. Bradshaw doesn't count, he was an injury/CAP cut. Most of the players the Giants let walk are now out of the league.
Yeah PEEJ, but Schwartz never played LG in his life. He is a
Yet they never use him on the edge or even a delayed blitz.
If I was fewell this week I do what Washington did to Dallas and blitz guys off the edge on both sides of Romo.
I'm confused by this...how do you blitz your LDE or RDE? Moore is not a LB.
is just admitting that they watch football but have no idea what they're seeing. Those two have been awful at every turn. They've had opportunities and every level of management practically begging for them to seize those opportunities and they remain on the bench and that's more than they deserve.
I think he might be 'safer' but I doubt he is better.
Same with Moore. I think he's more likely to make a mistake and make a play. At some point the staff has to stop coaching scared now.
I would say that most coaching staff's are this way. The #1 rule for most football teams when evaluating play is that they don't make mistakes. Having a great athlete doesn't get you anywhere if they block the wrong guy or run the wrong route. It's easy for us fans to call for the guy with the better 40 time or greater big play ability, but if the guy is only in the right position 3 plays out of 10 that's not good enough. I understand the frustration with this "conservative" coaching staff, but their decisions are based on practice performance and logic, not what if.
is just admitting that they watch football but have no idea what they're seeing. Those two have been awful at every turn. They've had opportunities and every level of management practically begging for them to seize those opportunities and they remain on the bench and that's more than they deserve.
Agree 100%! Mosely and Brewer have been given ample opportunity to take jobs but have fallen flat on their faces. The fact that Mosley cannot unseat Jerry, and was beaten out by a rookie playing out of position tells you all you need to know.
First, they signed Schwartz to play RG and they have a terrible player currently at that position. The logical thing to do would be to play him there. Second, they have a RT in Brewer who they were, at least at one time, high on. Let him play RT. They can't possibly get worse play from him than they did from Brown last week. Lastly they drafted Richburg to be their OC and their current OC is playing awfully. Again, the logical thing to do would play Richburg at OC now. Personally, I don't think he has been all that bad at LG, so he is the odd choice to bench.
^This. Totally agree. And as someone said, Stork, Martin, and the GB center are all starting as rookies. It is unreal to leave JJ and Walton in the lineup, play Schwartz out of position, and not give Brewer one final chance.
They're not going to change those evaluations anytime soon.
Mathias has lost snaps to Ayers. Kiwi is the starter in name only at this point.
If you are a coach, you can't say practice performances means zilch. Practice is where you prepare players for Sunday, where they show you that they can execute a game plan. Do things like not be out of position and continually fall for the read option. If you are a coach, practice is all you had. Coughlin and company are still fighting for wins and fighting to show some unit progression. If individual players want to get more playing time, they need to earn it. You don't get opportunities based on potential int he regular season, that's for training camp.
Why the hell are they playing all these guys out of position?
can defend this. THIS IS ON COACHING. Coughlin has no idea how to shuffle lineups anymore, has failed in that area for more than a few seasons.
This team's brain trust is beyond fucked right now, from "talent" acquisition to coaching it up and deploying it. No one is getting it done, no free passes to be had for either TC or JR.
Both of them should be done here, even if at least one won't be.
He's not capable? Why are other rookie centers across the league making line calls for their teams?
I don't get it.
We saw on on Sunday with the 49ers Marcus Martin, who was just drafted a few months ago in the 3rd round and pressed into action due to injury to their regular center.
I get benching Richburg if his ankle is still hurt and he is worn out. But Synder? Holy shit. Go with:
Beatty-Mosley-Walton-Schwartz-Brewer.
People saying that we shouldn't play Mosley and Brewer are wrong IMO. Brewer at least showed something at tackle on occasion, and the same for Mosley last year before he broke his hand. Guard is also the natural position for Schwartz.
Reese has really screwed up the OL. I am also concerned about Moore. His inability to get on the field, especially given how bad Kiwi has played is as concerning as the inability of Brewer and Mosley to replace Jerry and Snyder.
works out. We'll then have both Richburg and Pugh, #1 and #2 picks, riding the bench. Way to build through the draft, guys. If this isn't the gang that couldn't shoot straight, I don't know who is.
The limited play Mosley had last year was better than Jerry. Honestly we have no idea what they offer because the coaching staff will put a complete washout in Snyder in and take the R out, who is part of the future.
This is just not good coaching - what purpose does this serve.
Maybe 1 of our guys can go the Alex Boone route - undrafted in 09, practice squad in 09, inactive all of 2010, no play in 2011. 1st action in 2012 and is a good player. Or they will never even get a chance
They're not going to change those evaluations anytime soon.
Mathias has lost snaps to Ayers. Kiwi is the starter in name only at this point.
If you are a coach, you can't say practice performances means zilch. Practice is where you prepare players for Sunday, where they show you that they can execute a game plan. Do things like not be out of position and continually fall for the read option. If you are a coach, practice is all you had. Coughlin and company are still fighting for wins and fighting to show some unit progression. If individual players want to get more playing time, they need to earn it. You don't get opportunities based on potential int he regular season, that's for training camp.
This is not true.
Last week (vs SF):
Kiwi played 43 out of 68 snaps
Ayers played 39 out of 68 snaps
@ Seattle
Kiwi: 42 out of 65
Ayers: 32 out of 64
vs Colts
Kiwi: 58 out of 76
Ayers: 46 out of 76
@ Dallas
Kiwi: 57 out of 63
Ayers: 20 out of 63
@ Eagles
Kiwi: 56 out of 73
Ayers: 31 out of 73
vs Atlanta
Kiwi: 58 out of 72
Ayers: 39 out of 72
I'm not going back further, but Kiwi's snaps have been pretty consistent as have Ayers, but if Ayers have increased it's not at Kiwi's expense unfortunately.
IMO, however, he's not big, doesn't have a quick first step and is not very strong and has no moves nor, apparently, much of a motor- once he's stopped at the LOS, that's it, he's completely stopped. Not saying he's terrible but he has a lot to learn, needs to bulk up and get stronger but IMO no way he should have been drafted in the 3d Round.
Actually, I'd like to see what Kerry Wynn can do- an UDFA rookie who's bigger, stronger, faster and quicker than Moore. Would like to see if Wynn has a motor and/or moves.
is just admitting that they watch football but have no idea what they're seeing. Those two have been awful at every turn. They've had opportunities and every level of management practically begging for them to seize those opportunities and they remain on the bench and that's more than they deserve.
Then the only question to ask after that is why do they still remain on the roster?
Here are two guys playing in their 3rd and 4th seasons with their originally drafted team, who have not been active for a game all season, being leapfrogged by a guy who was acquired off the street just 3+ months ago.
The coaching staff clearly has no use for those players at all, and they have been with these guys everyday of their careers. That should tell us everything we need to know about the decayed state of this roster.
I understand why and I don't think that's any indication of his future, but aside from that one mean, nasty hit against the eagles that drew a 15 yard flag, people really overstate this kid.
Walton has been ok at center, he's had his moments, but I can't imagine that the smart play would be to put Richburg at center in week 12 of the season, especially when Walton has been serviceable.
Pugh and Jerry have been atrocious and need to see the bench.
IMO, however, he's not big, doesn't have a quick first step and is not very strong and has no moves nor, apparently, much of a motor- once he's stopped at the LOS, that's it, he's completely stopped. Not saying he's terrible but he has a lot to learn, needs to bulk up and get stronger but IMO no way he should have been drafted in the 3d Round.
Actually, I'd like to see what Kerry Wynn can do- an UDFA rookie who's bigger, stronger, faster and quicker than Moore. Would like to see if Wynn has a motor and/or moves.
I'd like to see Wynn as well. Zero chance that will happen. Zero point zero. Moore was only twenty when he was drafted, so maybe he just needs more time to get stronger and fill out his frame. But if he hasn't made significant progress by this time next year, it's going to be very bad. And it already is if Brewer and Mosley really are worse than Jerry and Snyder. I'd put them out there. As I said, Brewer has at times showed something at RT, and Mosley showed a spark of promise before breaking his hand.
they are just trying to plug the leaking ship at this point, the more disturbing thing about all of this is that Brandon Mosley and James Brewer must be total garbage.
John Jerry has had decent games, but he has been dreadful in 2 or 3 contests.
So there are two more picks down the drain.
Was thinking the same thing about Moseley too. Who is evaluating these linemen? It's been beyond ridiculous. The other thing is injuries. Almost all of our linemen have been or gotten injured. I know it's part of the game, but sometimes I think we are snakebitten. The football curse of the bambino!
Sorry but in my earlier post about how bad Brown, Brewer, Mosley
WHEN ARE WE GOING TO DEVELOP YOUNG PLAYERS!!!!!! Snyder! Dude is going to be on a street corner in six months. Richburg is learning and playing well. Stupid, short sighted move.
GB said we are not resigning our starting C and instead will take out chances with a 7th rd pick. Have not looked back
NE has a R 4th rd, 6th and UDFA as their interior, went through some tough stretches, replaced a G and did not look back
NO benched Brown and put in a mid round LT last year and did not look back
The Bears said screw it and put 3 R last year and have not looked back
Philly has trotted out UDFA all over their line due to injuries and they can play and do not look back
The Giants coaches, with young guys on the bench, and a R starter, decide that a 32 yr old journeyman magically in 3 practices is a better option than Richburg. Brilliant.
though, it was against 2nd and 3rd string opposition. I will say even though he was mostly terrible when playing guard last year, he did generate decent movement in the running game. He straight flattened Dontari Poe a few times against KC last year.
I also thought Mosley looked OK in limited action late last year. Yes, he looked overmatched and lost at times this preseason, but who on our O-line didnt?
be clear, I'm not calling Richburg a bust...but I've shown in recent game reviews where he has screwed up too. In other words, he hasn't been "good". Was he as bad as Jerry last week? No way. But he didn't play well either.
Richburg is going to have to play a lot better in 2015 to justify his 2nd round selection.
Of course Richberg looks bad at times. They are playing him out of his natural position. He hasn't played guard since he was a freshman, and that was for only 2 games!
God I can't stand how these coaches keep moving players around like it's Madden. Kiwi, Sintim (though he sucked anyway) and even Rolle, highest paid safety in the NFL and we played him primarily at nickel corner. What a waste.
If it's Brewer at RT, then is Reese giving TC the command
to play Brewer threre? Brewer is a Reese/Ross pick while Schwartz and Snyder are not.
Reese trying to salvage something from his putrid OL draft picks? Let's see what happens but I bet Reese and Ross must be looking at their careers in shreds over the OL they've given Eli to play behind.
Gruden on national TV says it's "personnel" on offense and that Eli doesn't have much around him: newspapers criticizing Reese as well.
If Eli is harassed the entire game, let's see what the media says about Reese and Ross.
RE: If it's Brewer at RT, then is Reese giving TC the command
to play Brewer threre? Brewer is a Reese/Ross pick while Schwartz and Snyder are not.
Reese trying to salvage something from his putrid OL draft picks? Let's see what happens but I bet Reese and Ross must be looking at their careers in shreds over the OL they've given Eli to play behind.
Gruden on national TV says it's "personnel" on offense and that Eli doesn't have much around him: newspapers criticizing Reese as well.
If Eli is harassed the entire game, let's see what the media says about Reese and Ross.
I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with Reese "commanding" TC to do anything if his 2nd rd draft pick is taking a seat on the bench as a result.
.... Why all you fat middleaged men feel like your better at evaluating talent than professionals who have years of success at doing it. All you couch gm's are the most painful part of being a Giants fan.
All the sentiment that the season is over is fan jibberish; the coaches and players do not share thar premise nor should they. They are trying to put the best team on the field. The thought that we as fans know better the personnel than do the coaches is laughable
BBI is a great place to share opinions about our team but the tone of some posts is insufferable.
arcarsenal: Agree that Jerry has been beyond awful.
Cannot understand why he's still starting unless all the sub linemen are considered to be even worse.
The problem is that the LG/C/RG positions have been terrible for the last 5 games and Pugh is hurt. Snyder cannot be worse than Richburg and Schwartz must be better than Brown. Who, then, replaces Walton and Jerry. Reese and Ross have put TC in a position where he has no replacements for Walton and Jerry, IMO.
.... Why all you fat middleaged men feel like your better at evaluating talent than professionals who have years of success at doing it. All you couch gm's are the most painful part of being a Giants fan.
Tell me, what's the point of having a discussion board if you can't voice opinions? Have you ever watched a movie and formed an opinion on it even though you're probably not an actor, director or writer?
.... Why all you fat middleaged men feel like your better at evaluating talent than professionals who have years of success at doing it. All you couch gm's are the most painful part of being a Giants fan.
This does not get you far on BBI... and what else is a fan message board for, for fans to talk share their thoughts and opinions...
except the players we release don't go onto do anything in the NFL, while players cut by other teams sometimes do much better here.
I don't buy it. On another thread you cited Hixon (who was a rookie and a dumb cut by KC), O'Hara (a FA who started at Cleve.) and Hedgecock (FBs are the most itinerant guys in NFL). As for ex-Giants elsewhere, guys who bust out after several years with one team aren't treated like rookies. If they are 'undeveloped' they get cut.
Richberg was drafted in the 2nd round as a CENTER and has played as a rookie out of his natural position. Was he overmatched? Yes, as would most all rookie Centers asked to play Guard.
Before anyone cast any stone on this kid let him play his natural position, especially over Walton, who has clearly been overmatched as the Giants Center all year.
This team is 3-8 and going nowhere this year. Let Richberg, Mosley and some other young players get some game opportunities at their natural positions.
How can you look at his performance the last several weeks and blame it on Brown. Yes Brown played horrible. Jerry has been bad all season. No problem with Snyder playing or Schwartz at right tackle with Pugh injured. Fixes nothing with Jerry playing.
.... Why all you fat middleaged men feel like your better at evaluating talent than professionals who have years of success at doing it. All you couch gm's are the most painful part of being a Giants fan.
First of all, I'm not fat. But to your other point, which of the professionals are the smart ones- the one's making these guys high draft picks or the one's deciding they're not good enough to play?
if the Giants needed a Guard they should have drafted one in the 2nd round instead of a Center to play Guard.
Was the plan to have a 2nd round pick sit behind Walton all year? Walton has been awful and now Richberg is on the bench with no experience in his first year at his natural position in the NFL.
Who is to fault, Reese or the coaching staff for not developing this kid.
If Brewer starts and plays well (significantly better than Brown) I will take back all my defenses of how players need to prove it in practice.
If the starting line-up of Beatty, Snyder, Walton, Schwartz, and Brewer play well. Well enough to revive the running game and keep Eli clean, then I will admit our coaching staff needs an overhaul!
.... Why all you fat middleaged men feel like your better at evaluating talent than professionals who have years of success at doing it. All you couch gm's are the most painful part of being a Giants fan.
This does not get you far on BBI... and what else is a fan message board for, for fans to talk share their thoughts and opinions...
I understand the purpose of a fan board however at some point someone needs to point out the obvious that general managers and coaches spend hundreds of hours watching these players, their technique and footwork, after watching them in person they then watch it over and over on video in slow motion, that they are quite a bit more qualified at determining who is the best qualified to fill that role than someone who watches 3 hours of football on a sunday with a beer in his hand.
I also understand that you are all frustrated with the current situation as am I, however I am not going to sit here and pretend I could make a better decision then they could. Which is what everyone in this thread is doing.
brewer looked serviceable at both R and LT in preseason
i would also add that even though schwartz struggles at RT he may still be better than pugh there.
The only true value coming from putting James Brewer on the field Sunday night is that his performance will hopefully get him cut and off this team forever...
And he was playing on the outside in 3 WR sets (which is basically our base formation) while Cruz was in the slot. Don't really understand that comment.
OBJ would be a number 3 receiver if Cruz did not get injured. Read the sequence of the messages in the thread. Point over, move along. No reason to derail the thread.
You don't think Beckham would have played save for the Cruz injury? You don't think Coughlin was spitting nickels about Beckham's hamstring keeping him off the field? And I guess Nicks didn't play as a rookie or Randle for that matter. Just because some of you keep saying the same inaccurate, not-supported-by-facts stuff about Coughlin/rookies over and over and over doesn't make it true.
Reese brings in a vet C in Walton and drafts the top C in Richburg. He signs the best FA RG on the market and brings in Jerry and still has Mosely and Brewer for 1 spot.
Coach puts FA RG at LG, begins off season with son in law at RG, who was not a long term solution and then replaces him with Jerry. Does not have Richburg compete for C job. Still does nothing with Mosley and Brewer.
and should move on, even though you are continuing the argument?
Bottom line - Beckham missed 4 games because he was hurt. He played in the first game he was eligible and that happened to be the same game Cruz went down. It is/was quite clear he was going to be the #3 WR (possibly #2) once he got his feet wet. Cruz' injury only sped this up by about a week.
you said OBJ was playing the "second he was healthy" which is wrong as usual on your behalf. He started the game as the 4th receiver behind Parker and Parker was terrible and OBJ made a few plays that electrified the home fans and forced his way on the field for more snaps in the 2nd half.
To the other poster, the point is really simple. OBJ would be the Giants 3rd receiver if Cruz were healthy and yes he would be a guy that showed flashes, but not a guy that has demonstrated in Victor's absence to be a bonafide go to receiver.
No way we would not have seen that since OBJ would still be behind Randle in the rotation, regardless of his falshes of brilliance. Put the thread back on track.
Richberg behind Walton makes zero sense.
Arcasenal go play with someone else, stop trolling on my posts.
Even though the first game he was healthy enough to play, he was playing from the opening snap and was targeted more than Preston Parker.
Read the transcripts from the time right before OBJ returned. Coughlin specifically said he would be playing immediately and he would have as much on his plate as he could handle. That's exactly what happened.
If Cruz never got hurt, Beckham would still be starting on the outside opposite Randle.
Beckham was on the field the first game he was healthy, he was targeted, he scored, he turned heads immediately.
This notion that no one would have known what he were capable of if not for Cruz going down is utter nonsense.
McAdoo and Coughlin were pining to get him back but they weren't going to use him? Sure.. makes sense.
You have absolutely no way of proving that Beckham would never have seen the field in 2 WR sets and quite frankly, if you think that would have been the case, you were just not paying any attention to anything that was said by the coaches.
I'm done arguing with you.
Well . . . you also have to remember that not only did Cruz
have to go down before Beckham started getting looks, but Jerrel Jernigan being lost for the season was also a factor.
It was either gonna be Beckham or Corey Washington being thrown out there in 3WR sets, and I think we know by now how the coaches feel about giving Washington any snaps.
our O-line is the worst in the league or close to it, and one of our top draft picks last year cannot play well enough to crack even our sub par lineup?
Pugh is and now Richburg (my guess) seems to be injured. Richburg's ankle (or whatever) must be pretty bad. They can't play or they would be playing. These are two stand-up guys. No doubt each is willing to try to do whatever it is the Giants want them to do, but it is obvious, in the case of Pugh, and must be obvious now in the case of Richburg, that they can't be put out there in their current condition without real risk.
What should Eli make of all this? Nothing good. People are going to be coming after him hard. Get rid of the ball fast, all the time. It isn't about winning. It's about surviving. It isn't going to be pretty.
A blind coach could look at Beckham in practice and know that he'd be getting on the field as soon as he was healthy. This notion that he wouldn't see playing until (behind Parker) until Cruz got hurt is one of the stupidest things I've read here.
Second, with Richburg, it's likely that he can do the job at center physically. What's possible, though, is that they believe he can't make the calls at the position now that a veteran center can do and none of the interior linemen can do that either.
Is right. You guys aren't understanding what he is saying at all.
He isn't saying that anyone is beyond criticism. He is saying that it's easy to make bold statements based on 1/10,000th of the information available to front office staff, coaches and training staff. What if I told you that Richburg's ankle flared up or is a real issue? Remember that beat writers aren't going to get all of the info. We may not know but everyone is making assumptions.
It's basically like me saying...ok solve this equation. You argue and argue that your answer is right. Then I tell you the guy who you are arguing with had access to 2 constant variables that you didn't. Would you still be so confident?
It's ok to be critical. Especially on a fan message board. But I would say between 80-90% of the posts on this topic and in general when it comes to things like this are way over the top, sweeping, and borderline hilarious.
With all of the shifts that are going on on the OL all at once, might it just make sense not to use this particular game to replace the starting center with a rookie center who has had zero opportunity to play there as yet? Might the brain trust want to keep stability at the line calling position for a game or two, and then perhaps turn to Richburg once Snyder and Schwartz have had time to get acquainted?
Or in your minds, does it make sense to give a rookie his first pt at center at the same time as two other OL positions are getting new players, so that three spots would have to be shifted at one time including a rookie line-caller in his first game at center?
it just seems nutty to me to think that OBJ would have been held hostage to some formalized "rotation." Surely the coaches saw in practice what they/we are seeing in games. Does Randle show that? Um, no. Even with Cruz healthy, OBJ is by far the greatest deep threat, and along with Cruz, one of the two wrs that usually requires a double team. When does Randle require a double team? Parker?
In 2 wr sets, OBJ would have been on the field with Cruz in short order once he got healthy.
RE: Richburg also needs to play Center. As Eric said in the preview
Will now have almost 680 pounds on the right side now if we spend the game running left then WTH do we know. This team has always make these types of moves for years so once again it's a wait and see thing. Sure we would all like to see what Mosley, Brewer and Richburg at center look like but it's a team secret. We have kept these guys for several years and yet a hurt street corner OL can in and start before either one of them does confuse us all.
I expect Moore to play more since Kiwi is hurt but he needs to show more than what he has to this point.
This line has been wretched since day one, but here we are 10 games in and the seasons down the drain and the line is now being shuffled. Oh well, hopefully they get it right next year.
With Pugh out or at least struggling to the point where he shouldn't be starting this week, someone had to play RT. If Schwartz is the best available lineman, then either he starts at RT or he starts at RG and Jerry moves to RT. Short term, better to plug in Schwartz at RT than to move Jerry to RT so Schwartz can play RG. Neither of them has played RT in a game this year, but Schwartz hasn't played RG this year either.
Richburg is a different problem. He may be injured or just beat up (or both) and his effectiveness has declined to the point where a change had to be made.
The owners and coaches had a meeting and decided to throw in the towel and go for draft picks and 2015. Rest the starters playing injured so they'll be in good shape for 2015. take the loss and move up in the draft. JR needs all the help he can get when it comes to good draft picks!
I was willing to bet we win this game but now I have to reverse that bet.
you'd know how anxious TC was to get the injured Beckham on the field. The remark that he would never have been on the field without Cruz's injury is absolutely ridiculous and frankly STUPID!
And speaking of stupid, the whole BBI myth about TC not playing Rookies is just as stupid!
is wore out. It happens to a lot of rookies when they are pressed into full time service. Compare the college schedule to the pro schedule and you can see how it happens to so many rookies.
Plus, we had an extra pre-season game.
Couple the fatigue factor with a nicked up ankle and it's no wonder he's slipped some.
you'd know how anxious TC was to get the injured Beckham on the field. The remark that he would never have been on the field without Cruz's injury is absolutely ridiculous and frankly STUPID!
And speaking of stupid, the whole BBI myth about TC not playing Rookies is just as stupid!
Eh . . . I'm sure TC wanted him to be healthy so that he can contribute, but what he was anxious about was mostly getting reporters to finally stop asking him about injured Beckham.
which you turned into Brewer and Snyder, and then criticized him for what he didn't say?
No, actually, YOU win post of the week.
No, you win for over-reaction of the week. Neither are tackles that should start or even backup for NFL games. Whether they are in at once or at the same time.
"Again, I agree that Jerry sucks and probably shouldnt be playing, but im interested on seeing how Schwartz plays at RT. [/quote]"
This is the worst offensive line the Giants have had since the 70s. I am glad to see any change because it cannot make the line worse & perhaps will improve things. Schwartz, even on one toe, will not be any more of a sieve than Brown. Also, why not give Snyder an opportunity? Richberg might need to sit for a while & perhaps his confidence will return. I have been quite critical of the rigidity of the coaches, refusing to to try other players. I regard these moves as a reasonable attempt to improve things.
Perhaps they will even rediscover a certain 6'4" rookie WR and throw fades to him when they reach the red zone. I have noticed that even if he does not know the routes as the coaches claim, he has caught every pass he gets his hands on, unlike Randle & the TEs. So, do not get your knickers in a twist Giant fans. Just take a deep breath & hope for the best.
Get Richburg to C god dammit. Walton is the weak link game in and game out. If Pugh the suck comes back, put him at RG. I'm not crazy about Snyder but it's clear that's a TC move, he likes big bodied guys inside.
Thought Richburg would keep starting
It is hard to figure out how the dust will settle when your entire line blows?
I do wonder how bad Jerry would have to play to get dropped though.
Our staff/management have royally fucked up the offensive line in every way
Thanks for some great years Coach, but it's time to go.
Brewer should be given the shot at RT, in my opinion, but let's see how this works. The coaches watch practices, not us.
That is precisely the reason to not only leave Richburg in the lineup, but to shift him to OC.
Stork, Marcus Martin, the GB Center are all starting as rookies. Why can't Weston Richburg?
O'Hara, Diehl and Snee were all kept around too long.
Why have Mosely and Brewer been kept on this roster? If they can't get on the field these last 2 years they never will be able to.
Brown, Snyder, Walton and Jerry are all terrible.
Just when you think the situation with the offensive line can't get worse, it does.
I am also a big Richburg fan as well, and while I like to see him keep playing, the fact of the matter is he has not been excellent at LG nor will he be playing there in the future. So throwing him out there for the sake of "experience" doesnt make a whole lot of sense since he is projected to be the starting C for a long time.
Again, I agree that Jerry sucks and probably shouldnt be playing, but im interested on seeing how Schwartz plays at RT.
Is this any way a 'financial' move? Player contract bonus? Option clause? etc?
Nothing like taking out your 'ok' ROOKIE 2nd rd pick and leaving in your 6 year veteran sieve.
Never thought you could make a mess out of a mess.
agreed. even if the coaches are coaching for their jobs, you still give the guy with more upside and future the chance to play.
We're going to shift the line around every week from here on out.
Thanks for some great years Coach, but it's time to go.
Afree 100% He is to loyal to aging vets. He should bench Jerry and Walton and start Richburg at center.
Beat me to it! This is my thought also. I couldn't believe the way he was carted off that he would be playing last week.
First of all, there is no loyalty to Walton or Jerry...they are new Giants.
Second of all, rookies have played all year for the Giants. Even Williams has played over the vet Hillis.
My guess is Richburg is wearing down. He said before the bye he had already played a full college season in terms of games and was feeling it. It may be showing up in the run game.
According to the article, Richberg has struggled mightily in run blocking. Give the kid a week to clear his head.
This is going to be a painful game to watch, Snyder over Richburg is beyond stupid and many expected this to happen to our second best OL once Schwartz came back.
My guess is Richburg is wearing down. He said before the bye he had already played a full college season in terms of games and was feeling it. It may be showing up in the run game.
Besides the ankle, this too.
First of all, there is no loyalty to Walton or Jerry...they are new Giants.
Second of all, rookies have played all year for the Giants. Even Williams has played over the vet Hillis.
My guess is Richburg is wearing down. He said before the bye he had already played a full college season in terms of games and was feeling it. It may be showing up in the run game.
Then how do you explain Jerry playing over Mosely? Or Kiwi over Moore? Or playing Snee for 2 years when he couldn't even move. Or playing Diehl when he was a human turnstile?
He doesn't belong in the league yet alone still starting.
This is going to be a painful game to watch, Snyder over Richburg is beyond stupid and many expected this to happen to our second best OL once Schwartz came back.
Didn't think Snyder played too poorly last time when Richburg got hurt.
play him at guard...
play a crappy center...
and enter the offseason with no idea as to whether our 2nd round draft pick can actually play the position he was drafted to play.
there is no defenses for this. its pathetic
Defensive coaches keep saying Moore is messing up in run defense. 3 out of 4 last opponents have been heavy run teams. Moore played more against Colts.
Our staff/management have royally fucked up the offensive line in every way
Walton is beyond awful. This really makes no sense.
Defensive coaches keep saying Moore is messing up in run defense. 3 out of 4 last opponents have been heavy run teams. Moore played more against Colts.
kiwi sucks against the run... so eric the issue isn't whether moore is good or bad against it....we are playing a guy that also sucks bad ahead of him and that guy has no potential or future.
BlueHurricane : 11/17/2014 1:29 pm : link : reply
and leave Jerry at RG. I can see it happening and it will be yet another misuse of the o-lineman on this team.
People don't want to admit it, but Moore might be a bust. Richburg can still be a bust too.
But he went to BC so it's a good.
John Jerry has had decent games, but he has been dreadful in 2 or 3 contests.
So there are two more picks down the drain.
Eric - you started a thread earlier in the week that he should be benched. I'm sure you were looking at the line and zeroing in on who wasn't performing.
If we are evaluating correctly.......then it's time for TC to go with this change.
Something isn't right.
2) plays guard when hes a center... fantastic.
I would not care if the guys ahead of them were somewhat solid. both might be the worst at their positions in ALL of football.
Defensive coaches keep saying Moore is messing up in run defense. 3 out of 4 last opponents have been heavy run teams. Moore played more against Colts.
Thank you!!! I can't believe how many posters act as if they had the 7 blocks of granite in waiting on the bench. They had (have) shit! Snee and Diehl did their best and gave everything they had left. It's not their fault that Reese and co. didn't draft or acquire adequate replacements. It was already apparent in the 2011 SB drive that the OL was on fumes.
How many top round guys can you possibly draft who do not contribute a thing to your roster. Wilson and Jones are bad luck but when you throw them in with Austin, Holsey, Jernnigan, Brewer, Robinson, Dillard, Sintim and Barden the top four rounds of our drafts for the previous years have been a colossal disaster.
Richburg is going to have to play a lot better in 2015 to justify his 2nd round selection.
And Moore has yet to make any impact plays in the snaps he has received. I think he had 18 against the 49ers. Something like 25 against Colts. He hardly played in Seattle.
Funny the same guys developed Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara as starters, and made Kevin Boothe into a useful backup and plugged in guys like Shawn Andrews at different times successfully. Wouldn't be that those guys were better players would it?
not likely... but the only positive I can see.
2) plays guard when hes a center... fantastic.
I would not care if the guys ahead of them were somewhat solid. both might be the worst at their positions in ALL of football.
Exactly. How much can you learn about and offensive lineman in practice when they don't even practice in pads anymore? They benched Jernigan and when he finally played he actually showed some promise.
How anyone can defend these types of moves - which happen every year - is totally beyond me.
And Snee's backups may have sucked but Snee was playing when he COULD NOT MOVE because of his hip. So don't give me the BS that he was better than his backups....we put a damn cripple out there out of pure loyalty. Same shit with Diehl.
My take-away from this is this:
"We're really going to try to run the football like crazy on Sunday night."
All that guard stuff can work itself out. Doesn't matter how ugly its in the short term
I consider myself an o-line enthusiast and these moves are driving me nuts.
Saving grace? Demarcus Ware is not on the Cowboys. Dallas doesn't rush the passer all that well.
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1) they don't perform In practice which is a glorified walk through... and is stuck behind a terrible football player but great citizen. however he is a bright spot on special teams where he actually gets consistent PT. hmmmm... give the guy confidence in a spot and he performs.
2) plays guard when hes a center... fantastic.
I would not care if the guys ahead of them were somewhat solid. both might be the worst at their positions in ALL of football.
Exactly. How much can you learn about and offensive lineman in practice when they don't even practice in pads anymore? They benched Jernigan and when he finally played he actually showed some promise.
How anyone can defend these types of moves - which happen every year - is totally beyond me.
And Snee's backups may have sucked but Snee was playing when he COULD NOT MOVE because of his hip. So don't give me the BS that he was better than his backups....we put a damn cripple out there out of pure loyalty. Same shit with Diehl.
Same shit with O'Hara too, when he looked like he was blocking on skates. Don't blame the players, they're out there playing hurt, it is ultimately up to the coach to not put them in those situations. Again, everyone wants to push Reese out the door...maybe the coaches are failing to develop the talent we're drafting?
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1) they don't perform In practice which is a glorified walk through... and is stuck behind a terrible football player but great citizen. however he is a bright spot on special teams where he actually gets consistent PT. hmmmm... give the guy confidence in a spot and he performs.
2) plays guard when hes a center... fantastic.
I would not care if the guys ahead of them were somewhat solid. both might be the worst at their positions in ALL of football.
Exactly. How much can you learn about and offensive lineman in practice when they don't even practice in pads anymore? They benched Jernigan and when he finally played he actually showed some promise.
How anyone can defend these types of moves - which happen every year - is totally beyond me.
And Snee's backups may have sucked but Snee was playing when he COULD NOT MOVE because of his hip. So don't give me the BS that he was better than his backups....we put a damn cripple out there out of pure loyalty. Same shit with Diehl.
That's idiotic. No NFL coach is going to play anybody out of loyalty if he has a better, healthier, younger option in place. You're saying that Brewer and Moseley were better? They can't even get a uniform when John fucking Jerry is starting and Charles Fucking Brown replaces Pugh. Dallas Reynolds? Mitch Petrus? Please.
i.e. not even giving yourself a chance to evaluate guys at their potential position
this is about richburg not playing center this year... and Walton sucking at football...
and moore getting no legit consistent snaps.... while kiwi sucks at football...
nothing more nothing less.
How did Mosely go from potential starter in camp and not looking terrible (better than Schwartz) to getting injured to not even able to sniff the field once healthy?
1. can we really 100% trust the judgement of this staff based on there past decisions?
2. Judging how poorly the run defense has been, can Moore really be that much worse?
He may as well be out there getting experience.
im saying people making my argument for the current move are diminishing their case bringing up Moseley and brewer who are not 2nd round picks with a guy playing in front of them who has ZERO connection to the giants and is bad at football
so on that I fully agree with you
Sure Richburgh is the future at OC and Guard is not his best position, but I can't blame the coaching staff for not wanting to leave the OL calls to a rookie OC. Eric's point is also a good one. Richburg has nearly played a full college student in full time duty at Guard, he might need a breather.
If I was fewell this week I do what Washington did to Dallas and blitz guys off the edge on both sides of Romo.
1. can we really 100% trust the judgement of this staff based on there past decisions?
2. Judging how poorly the run defense has been, can Moore really be that much worse?
He may as well be out there getting experience.
I think the coaching staff's ability to evaluate talent is better than we give them credit for. Name a player they gave up on that went on to do bigger and better things. Bradshaw doesn't count, he was an injury/CAP cut. Most of the players the Giants let walk are now out of the league.
Snyder is obviously better than Mosley. Not a good sign
If I was fewell this week I do what Washington did to Dallas and blitz guys off the edge on both sides of Romo.
I'm confused by this...how do you blitz your LDE or RDE? Moore is not a LB.
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Why Snyder over Mosley?
Snyder is obviously better than Mosley. Not a good sign
There is nothing obvious about this if you paid attention in preseason prior to Mosely getting dinged.
Good to see Schwartz go to RT, where he's played before. Hopefully, he'll show that he's a mauler, as a RT should be.
Shows how bad Brown, Brewer, Mosley and Reynolds are when Walton and Jerry are still starting.
Reese and Ross should be ashamed of themselves for putting such a terrible OL in front of Eli.
Same with Moore. I think he's more likely to make a mistake and make a play. At some point the staff has to stop coaching scared now.
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In comment 11990606 spike said:
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Why Snyder over Mosley?
Snyder is obviously better than Mosley. Not a good sign
There is nothing obvious about this if you paid attention in preseason prior to Mosely getting dinged.
I did, Mosley did nothing to impress.
Same with Moore. I think he's more likely to make a mistake and make a play. At some point the staff has to stop coaching scared now.
I would say that most coaching staff's are this way. The #1 rule for most football teams when evaluating play is that they don't make mistakes. Having a great athlete doesn't get you anywhere if they block the wrong guy or run the wrong route. It's easy for us fans to call for the guy with the better 40 time or greater big play ability, but if the guy is only in the right position 3 plays out of 10 that's not good enough. I understand the frustration with this "conservative" coaching staff, but their decisions are based on practice performance and logic, not what if.
Same with Moore. I think he's more likely to make a mistake and make a play. At some point the staff has to stop coaching scared now.
How is some nobody safer than a guy that was drafted by the team and has been a part of the program for years?
We know what Snyder is. We know what Mathias is.
They're not going to change those evaluations anytime soon.
Agree 100%! Mosely and Brewer have been given ample opportunity to take jobs but have fallen flat on their faces. The fact that Mosley cannot unseat Jerry, and was beaten out by a rookie playing out of position tells you all you need to know.
^This. Totally agree. And as someone said, Stork, Martin, and the GB center are all starting as rookies. It is unreal to leave JJ and Walton in the lineup, play Schwartz out of position, and not give Brewer one final chance.
He's not capable? Why are other rookie centers across the league making line calls for their teams?
I don't get it.
We know what Snyder is. We know what Mathias is.
They're not going to change those evaluations anytime soon.
Mathias has lost snaps to Ayers. Kiwi is the starter in name only at this point.
If you are a coach, you can't say practice performances means zilch. Practice is where you prepare players for Sunday, where they show you that they can execute a game plan. Do things like not be out of position and continually fall for the read option. If you are a coach, practice is all you had. Coughlin and company are still fighting for wins and fighting to show some unit progression. If individual players want to get more playing time, they need to earn it. You don't get opportunities based on potential int he regular season, that's for training camp.
This team's brain trust is beyond fucked right now, from "talent" acquisition to coaching it up and deploying it. No one is getting it done, no free passes to be had for either TC or JR.
Both of them should be done here, even if at least one won't be.
Just keep saying it and maybe it'll come true...I guess?
He's not capable? Why are other rookie centers across the league making line calls for their teams?
I don't get it.
We saw on on Sunday with the 49ers Marcus Martin, who was just drafted a few months ago in the 3rd round and pressed into action due to injury to their regular center.
Beatty-Mosley-Walton-Schwartz-Brewer.
People saying that we shouldn't play Mosley and Brewer are wrong IMO. Brewer at least showed something at tackle on occasion, and the same for Mosley last year before he broke his hand. Guard is also the natural position for Schwartz.
Reese has really screwed up the OL. I am also concerned about Moore. His inability to get on the field, especially given how bad Kiwi has played is as concerning as the inability of Brewer and Mosley to replace Jerry and Snyder.
Eric, you and I both predicted 3-8 six weeks ago. So we were right there. Now what do you think the final record will be?
I say: 5-11
This is just not good coaching - what purpose does this serve.
Maybe 1 of our guys can go the Alex Boone route - undrafted in 09, practice squad in 09, inactive all of 2010, no play in 2011. 1st action in 2012 and is a good player. Or they will never even get a chance
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means zilch compared to live in game performance.
We know what Snyder is. We know what Mathias is.
They're not going to change those evaluations anytime soon.
Mathias has lost snaps to Ayers. Kiwi is the starter in name only at this point.
If you are a coach, you can't say practice performances means zilch. Practice is where you prepare players for Sunday, where they show you that they can execute a game plan. Do things like not be out of position and continually fall for the read option. If you are a coach, practice is all you had. Coughlin and company are still fighting for wins and fighting to show some unit progression. If individual players want to get more playing time, they need to earn it. You don't get opportunities based on potential int he regular season, that's for training camp.
This is not true.
Last week (vs SF):
Kiwi played 43 out of 68 snaps
Ayers played 39 out of 68 snaps
@ Seattle
Kiwi: 42 out of 65
Ayers: 32 out of 64
vs Colts
Kiwi: 58 out of 76
Ayers: 46 out of 76
@ Dallas
Kiwi: 57 out of 63
Ayers: 20 out of 63
@ Eagles
Kiwi: 56 out of 73
Ayers: 31 out of 73
vs Atlanta
Kiwi: 58 out of 72
Ayers: 39 out of 72
I'm not going back further, but Kiwi's snaps have been pretty consistent as have Ayers, but if Ayers have increased it's not at Kiwi's expense unfortunately.
Actually, I'd like to see what Kerry Wynn can do- an UDFA rookie who's bigger, stronger, faster and quicker than Moore. Would like to see if Wynn has a motor and/or moves.
Then the only question to ask after that is why do they still remain on the roster?
Here are two guys playing in their 3rd and 4th seasons with their originally drafted team, who have not been active for a game all season, being leapfrogged by a guy who was acquired off the street just 3+ months ago.
The coaching staff clearly has no use for those players at all, and they have been with these guys everyday of their careers. That should tell us everything we need to know about the decayed state of this roster.
Walton has been ok at center, he's had his moments, but I can't imagine that the smart play would be to put Richburg at center in week 12 of the season, especially when Walton has been serviceable.
Pugh and Jerry have been atrocious and need to see the bench.
Actually, I'd like to see what Kerry Wynn can do- an UDFA rookie who's bigger, stronger, faster and quicker than Moore. Would like to see if Wynn has a motor and/or moves.
I'd like to see Wynn as well. Zero chance that will happen. Zero point zero. Moore was only twenty when he was drafted, so maybe he just needs more time to get stronger and fill out his frame. But if he hasn't made significant progress by this time next year, it's going to be very bad. And it already is if Brewer and Mosley really are worse than Jerry and Snyder. I'd put them out there. As I said, Brewer has at times showed something at RT, and Mosley showed a spark of promise before breaking his hand.
John Jerry has had decent games, but he has been dreadful in 2 or 3 contests.
So there are two more picks down the drain.
Was thinking the same thing about Moseley too. Who is evaluating these linemen? It's been beyond ridiculous. The other thing is injuries. Almost all of our linemen have been or gotten injured. I know it's part of the game, but sometimes I think we are snakebitten. The football curse of the bambino!
Link
Snyder playing over Mosley is just another puzzling move with the o-line in a series of several puzzling moves. Snyder fucking blows.
NE has a R 4th rd, 6th and UDFA as their interior, went through some tough stretches, replaced a G and did not look back
NO benched Brown and put in a mid round LT last year and did not look back
The Bears said screw it and put 3 R last year and have not looked back
Philly has trotted out UDFA all over their line due to injuries and they can play and do not look back
The Giants coaches, with young guys on the bench, and a R starter, decide that a 32 yr old journeyman magically in 3 practices is a better option than Richburg. Brilliant.
Brewer or Moseley better get some time now, if not, then they truely were busts which is another line of poor mark against reese and Co
I also thought Mosley looked OK in limited action late last year. Yes, he looked overmatched and lost at times this preseason, but who on our O-line didnt?
Richburg is going to have to play a lot better in 2015 to justify his 2nd round selection.
Of course Richberg looks bad at times. They are playing him out of his natural position. He hasn't played guard since he was a freshman, and that was for only 2 games!
God I can't stand how these coaches keep moving players around like it's Madden. Kiwi, Sintim (though he sucked anyway) and even Rolle, highest paid safety in the NFL and we played him primarily at nickel corner. What a waste.
Reese trying to salvage something from his putrid OL draft picks? Let's see what happens but I bet Reese and Ross must be looking at their careers in shreds over the OL they've given Eli to play behind.
Gruden on national TV says it's "personnel" on offense and that Eli doesn't have much around him: newspapers criticizing Reese as well.
If Eli is harassed the entire game, let's see what the media says about Reese and Ross.
Reese trying to salvage something from his putrid OL draft picks? Let's see what happens but I bet Reese and Ross must be looking at their careers in shreds over the OL they've given Eli to play behind.
Gruden on national TV says it's "personnel" on offense and that Eli doesn't have much around him: newspapers criticizing Reese as well.
If Eli is harassed the entire game, let's see what the media says about Reese and Ross.
I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with Reese "commanding" TC to do anything if his 2nd rd draft pick is taking a seat on the bench as a result.
But, Brewer hasn't played, so it would be easy for Reese to tell TC to play him "to see what he can do and he must be better than Brown".
Don't you find it curious that for hours we've heard that it's Schwartz at RT and now that perhaps it's Brewer. Doesn't smell fishy to you?
But, Brewer hasn't played, so it would be easy for Reese to tell TC to play him "to see what he can do and he must be better than Brown".
Don't you find it curious that for hours we've heard that it's Schwartz at RT and now that perhaps it's Brewer. Doesn't smell fishy to you?
And yet, John Jerry who has been by far the worst player on the line this year keeps his spot?
Yeah, that makes total sense.
i would also add that even though schwartz struggles at RT he may still be better than pugh there.
BBI is a great place to share opinions about our team but the tone of some posts is insufferable.
The problem is that the LG/C/RG positions have been terrible for the last 5 games and Pugh is hurt. Snyder cannot be worse than Richburg and Schwartz must be better than Brown. Who, then, replaces Walton and Jerry. Reese and Ross have put TC in a position where he has no replacements for Walton and Jerry, IMO.
Tell me, what's the point of having a discussion board if you can't voice opinions? Have you ever watched a movie and formed an opinion on it even though you're probably not an actor, director or writer?
I don't think that makes us armchair GMs, it just makes us sick of seeing the likes of Jerry, Walton and Kiwi.
This does not get you far on BBI... and what else is a fan message board for, for fans to talk share their thoughts and opinions...
I don't buy it. On another thread you cited Hixon (who was a rookie and a dumb cut by KC), O'Hara (a FA who started at Cleve.) and Hedgecock (FBs are the most itinerant guys in NFL). As for ex-Giants elsewhere, guys who bust out after several years with one team aren't treated like rookies. If they are 'undeveloped' they get cut.
Before anyone cast any stone on this kid let him play his natural position, especially over Walton, who has clearly been overmatched as the Giants Center all year.
This team is 3-8 and going nowhere this year. Let Richberg, Mosley and some other young players get some game opportunities at their natural positions.
I don't think that makes us armchair GMs, it just makes us sick of seeing the likes of Jerry, Walton and Kiwi.
Absolutely!
First of all, I'm not fat. But to your other point, which of the professionals are the smart ones- the one's making these guys high draft picks or the one's deciding they're not good enough to play?
Was the plan to have a 2nd round pick sit behind Walton all year? Walton has been awful and now Richberg is on the bench with no experience in his first year at his natural position in the NFL.
Who is to fault, Reese or the coaching staff for not developing this kid.
Yes he was. The problem is a lot of the lines in the NFL suck. The Giants just seem to be sucking worse right now.
Link
If Brewer starts and plays well (significantly better than Brown) I will take back all my defenses of how players need to prove it in practice.
If the starting line-up of Beatty, Snyder, Walton, Schwartz, and Brewer play well. Well enough to revive the running game and keep Eli clean, then I will admit our coaching staff needs an overhaul!
Bad players start on bad teams. Case in point, the Raiders since forever.
Quote:
.... Why all you fat middleaged men feel like your better at evaluating talent than professionals who have years of success at doing it. All you couch gm's are the most painful part of being a Giants fan.
This does not get you far on BBI... and what else is a fan message board for, for fans to talk share their thoughts and opinions...
I understand the purpose of a fan board however at some point someone needs to point out the obvious that general managers and coaches spend hundreds of hours watching these players, their technique and footwork, after watching them in person they then watch it over and over on video in slow motion, that they are quite a bit more qualified at determining who is the best qualified to fill that role than someone who watches 3 hours of football on a sunday with a beer in his hand.
I also understand that you are all frustrated with the current situation as am I, however I am not going to sit here and pretend I could make a better decision then they could. Which is what everyone in this thread is doing.
Are you forgetting that OBJ was injured up until his first start? A game in which he got significant time and looks with Cruz in the game?
i would also add that even though schwartz struggles at RT he may still be better than pugh there.
The only true value coming from putting James Brewer on the field Sunday night is that his performance will hopefully get him cut and off this team forever...
Again if Cruz did not get injured, no one would no what OBJ was really capable of.
TC would have kept him as a 3rd receiver and OBJ would have showed "flashes", rather than what he really is, a young bonafide superstar WR.
OBJ would be stuck behind Randle in TC's "rotation". Some beat reporter should clarfy the criteria of TC's "rotation" order.
Probably starts with time of service as priority, I am sure.
Just simply amazing that the Giants went thru this same shit 365 days ago and we are no better off in these positions...
Again if Cruz did not get injured, no one would no what OBJ was really capable of.
TC would have kept him as a 3rd receiver and OBJ would have showed "flashes", rather than what he really is, a young bonafide superstar WR.
OBJ would be stuck behind Randle in TC's "rotation". Some beat reporter should clarfy the criteria of TC's "rotation" order.
Probably starts with time of service as priority, I am sure.
Huh? The only reason Beckham didn't play prior was his injury. At worst, he would be the #3 WR if Cruz were still healthy right now.
Richberg should not be sitting behind Walton.
Whos is this arrogant a$$? Talk down to people much?
Yeah, that's how he caught that TD pass in the 4th quarter. Because he only played a "handful of snaps in the 1st half"
Just stop. You sound like a fool.
Coach puts FA RG at LG, begins off season with son in law at RG, who was not a long term solution and then replaces him with Jerry. Does not have Richburg compete for C job. Still does nothing with Mosley and Brewer.
Does the coaching staff get any blame
Bottom line - Beckham missed 4 games because he was hurt. He played in the first game he was eligible and that happened to be the same game Cruz went down. It is/was quite clear he was going to be the #3 WR (possibly #2) once he got his feet wet. Cruz' injury only sped this up by about a week.
To the other poster, the point is really simple. OBJ would be the Giants 3rd receiver if Cruz were healthy and yes he would be a guy that showed flashes, but not a guy that has demonstrated in Victor's absence to be a bonafide go to receiver.
No way we would not have seen that since OBJ would still be behind Randle in the rotation, regardless of his falshes of brilliance. Put the thread back on track.
Richberg behind Walton makes zero sense.
Arcasenal go play with someone else, stop trolling on my posts.
Read the transcripts from the time right before OBJ returned. Coughlin specifically said he would be playing immediately and he would have as much on his plate as he could handle. That's exactly what happened.
If Cruz never got hurt, Beckham would still be starting on the outside opposite Randle.
Thanks for your wonderful insight again, you make my point!
Playing opposite Randle doesn't mean "behind" him.
Our base offense in this system is 3WR. There are two receivers on the outside and one in the slot.
OBJ was pegged to start on the outside along with Randle and Cruz was to primarily play the slot.
So, no.. I'm not proving your point. You're wrong.
3 WR set set would have been Randle - Cruz - OBJ
That's a 3rd receiver tag for OBJ.
Just stop the nonsense already, plesae you are painful man on semantics. Good night, I am out.
This notion that no one would have known what he were capable of if not for Cruz going down is utter nonsense.
McAdoo and Coughlin were pining to get him back but they weren't going to use him? Sure.. makes sense.
You have absolutely no way of proving that Beckham would never have seen the field in 2 WR sets and quite frankly, if you think that would have been the case, you were just not paying any attention to anything that was said by the coaches.
I'm done arguing with you.
It was either gonna be Beckham or Corey Washington being thrown out there in 3WR sets, and I think we know by now how the coaches feel about giving Washington any snaps.
What should Eli make of all this? Nothing good. People are going to be coming after him hard. Get rid of the ball fast, all the time. It isn't about winning. It's about surviving. It isn't going to be pretty.
...And our base set is a 3-WR set...
Wouldn't that make OBJ a starter?
What point are you trying to make?
Second, with Richburg, it's likely that he can do the job at center physically. What's possible, though, is that they believe he can't make the calls at the position now that a veteran center can do and none of the interior linemen can do that either.
He isn't saying that anyone is beyond criticism. He is saying that it's easy to make bold statements based on 1/10,000th of the information available to front office staff, coaches and training staff. What if I told you that Richburg's ankle flared up or is a real issue? Remember that beat writers aren't going to get all of the info. We may not know but everyone is making assumptions.
It's basically like me saying...ok solve this equation. You argue and argue that your answer is right. Then I tell you the guy who you are arguing with had access to 2 constant variables that you didn't. Would you still be so confident?
It's ok to be critical. Especially on a fan message board. But I would say between 80-90% of the posts on this topic and in general when it comes to things like this are way over the top, sweeping, and borderline hilarious.
Or in your minds, does it make sense to give a rookie his first pt at center at the same time as two other OL positions are getting new players, so that three spots would have to be shifted at one time including a rookie line-caller in his first game at center?
Not to me it doesn't.
In 2 wr sets, OBJ would have been on the field with Cruz in short order once he got healthy.
Exactament!
I expect Moore to play more since Kiwi is hurt but he needs to show more than what he has to this point.
The new Line should be Beatty , Schwartz, Richburg, Jerry and Brewer or Snyder
The new Line should be Beatty , Schwartz, Richburg, Jerry and Brewer or Snyder
Brewer and Snyder at Tackle? I think I would go with a 6 WR set and no tackles before I did that.
Congrats....you win easily for the best post of the week.
No, actually, YOU win post of the week.
I'm actually ok with the reshuffle. We've got 11 OL, and things aren't working as currently construed. Time to try something else.
Richburg is a different problem. He may be injured or just beat up (or both) and his effectiveness has declined to the point where a change had to be made.
I was willing to bet we win this game but now I have to reverse that bet.
Tough to expect him to play C without taking any meaningful reps at that position all season. Ankle might be an issue as well.
And speaking of stupid, the whole BBI myth about TC not playing Rookies is just as stupid!
Plus, we had an extra pre-season game.
Couple the fatigue factor with a nicked up ankle and it's no wonder he's slipped some.
And speaking of stupid, the whole BBI myth about TC not playing Rookies is just as stupid!
Eh . . . I'm sure TC wanted him to be healthy so that he can contribute, but what he was anxious about was mostly getting reporters to finally stop asking him about injured Beckham.
No, actually, YOU win post of the week.
No, you win for over-reaction of the week. Neither are tackles that should start or even backup for NFL games. Whether they are in at once or at the same time.
Now calm down.
RT.
"Again, I agree that Jerry sucks and probably shouldnt be playing, but im interested on seeing how Schwartz plays at RT. [/quote]"
This is the worst offensive line the Giants have had since the 70s. I am glad to see any change because it cannot make the line worse & perhaps will improve things. Schwartz, even on one toe, will not be any more of a sieve than Brown. Also, why not give Snyder an opportunity? Richberg might need to sit for a while & perhaps his confidence will return. I have been quite critical of the rigidity of the coaches, refusing to to try other players. I regard these moves as a reasonable attempt to improve things.
Perhaps they will even rediscover a certain 6'4" rookie WR and throw fades to him when they reach the red zone. I have noticed that even if he does not know the routes as the coaches claim, he has caught every pass he gets his hands on, unlike Randle & the TEs. So, do not get your knickers in a twist Giant fans. Just take a deep breath & hope for the best.
Really need to start seeing more positives that this franchise can build around other than Eli (and maybe Beckham).