Tony Romo is unbelievably underrated in clutch spots

Agenda??Anyone who reads an agenda into this is projecting their own agenda. And what can my agenda possibly be? Im a secret cowboy/romo fan? Ok, you nailed me.

It's all of you that are crazy

with 7 seconds to pass in the pocket. Let's see how he does when he has 3 seconds or less to pass against a better team. The Giants defense gift wrapped his game winning drive, kudo's to him for delivering.

In comment 11998927 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Agenda??Anyone who reads an agenda into this is projecting their own agenda. And what can my agenda possibly be? Im a secret cowboy/romo fan? Ok, you nailed me.

Re-read what I said. I didn't say you did or didn't have one. I say your timing is very odd and gives the appearance you do have an agenda.

but I do think the OP missed the point a bit. Romo isn't criticized because of failures late IN games. Its been big games as a whole where he's seemingly come up small to Cowboys fans (and NFL fans in general). Well, perhaps a combination of both. The season ender to Washington a couple of years ago comes to mind as a big game where he came up small. He took a lot of heat that offseason stemming from that one game.

But like I said, I actually agree with the premise that he's underrated and a very good QB. Dallas will miss him when he's gone.

And i bet your parents are pretty happy their son is a middle aged man hurling middle school level homoerotic quips at strangers he disagrees with on the internet. Sucking dick must have been a big topic at the dinner table. Probably also why your name is head hunter.

In comment 11998980 MarshallOnMontana said:

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And i bet your parents are pretty happy their son is a middle aged man hurling middle school level homoerotic quips at strangers he disagrees with on the internet. Sucking dick must have been a big topic at the dinner table. Probably also why your name is head hunter.

::closes laptop:: Bumping Ether right now full blast. No Ragrets.

**except for playoff play in games.
The amount of mistakes he's made in huge playoff games and the last three "Nfc east championship" games has earned his rep in my eyes.

He's a great QB and great in the clutch during the regular season but until he goes and wins a playoff game I absolutely will doubt him. Deservedly so.

a playoff game at the end of the game. And yes I realize he was not active for last seasons end of season game.

In comment 11998914 Britt in VA said:

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all of those game ending INT's, the playoff record, and the fact that the Cowboys haven't made the playoffs since 2009... I just don't see how Tony is absolved of all blame in any of that.

Think Brett Favre and then you'll understand.

In comment 11998889 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Were you really that crushed about last night that a romo thread 24 hrs later bothers you? Maybe im a bad fan, but its been a couple years since the giants could effect my mood much by a result. Ill save that for when theyre playing games that matter, not in dead end seasons where losing might actually even help spur necessary change. You are a glutton for punishment if you havent developed some type of better coping mechanism over the last 2 1/2 years.

I hate dallas. No loss bothered me since Philly but i really hate losing to Dallas. Last night bothered the shit out of me. I pretty much had one more emotional investment in me and last night was it. I won't really care about this team until next year. Blows.

Romo is a damn good QB who makes players around him better but he's also a gunslinger who is prone to errors, sometimes at the most inopportune times. He's very very good though. You don't amass his numbers and start for ten years by accident. The guy can play. Clearly.

How far down the list is Romo?

is the percentage.

Most INT in 4th Quarter or OT

Score Tied or Leading by 7 or Fewer

Tony Romo 8
Tom Brady 7
Matt Ryan 7
Matt Schaub 6
Chad Henne 6


There was an article on BloggingTheBoys that broke down these numbers and showed that Romo had so many of these situations "score tied or leading by 7 points or fewer" that by percentage he was one of the very best QBs in the NFL in this situation.

If the other QBs in the NFL were put in the same number of situation as Romo, they would have many more then just 8 INTs, many more.

In comment 11998447 Headhunter said:

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that Romo made. Eli to Tyree, ELi to Manningham are throws for the ages. I can't think of 1 signature Romo throw. But truth be told I haven't watched the great majority of Romo's games

The 3rd and 22 throw to extend the eventual game winning drive against Seattle this season.

season which is good but let him do that in the playoffs and people will notice and admire it.

Judge a guys career entirely on what amounts to like 5 percent of his resume' is ridiculous. If a guy plays in enough playoff games, sooner or later the production is going to closely resemble what he does in the regular season, because thats what the player is. Maybe a smidge below his normal production because hes going against better comp in the playoffs. When youre talking about samples of 4 games, 8 games, 10 games, there is a high degree of randomness at play. Its absolutely stupid to extrapolate narratives one way or the other when you are talking about such limited data.

No playoffs since 2009, and only 1 playoff win in his career, should not be acceptable for him.

You talk about narratives, Joe. Everybody on this thread has agreed that Romo is a very good to great QB.

You're the only one digging your heels in that the biggest knock on him doesn't exist.

Did that notion that he chokes in big spots just get made up from thin air?

Im sure he doesnt. Its quite another to explain away 1 playoff win with some lazy romo choker nonsense. Its a team game, and you shouldnt do too much confusing of team accomplishments with individual evaluations. Some people will never ever grasp this though.

In comment 12000204 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Judge a guys career entirely on what amounts to like 5 percent of his resume' is ridiculous. If a guy plays in enough playoff games, sooner or later the production is going to closely resemble what he does in the regular season, because thats what the player is. Maybe a smidge below his normal production because hes going against better comp in the playoffs. When youre talking about samples of 4 games, 8 games, 10 games, there is a high degree of randomness at play. Its absolutely stupid to extrapolate narratives one way or the other when you are talking about such limited data.

I'm not sure anyone is judging his whole career. Romo has been a really good player...saying otherwise would be disingenuous. But you can't tell the story of his career without pointing out the mistakes in critical moments.

But you seem to be picking your spots a little bit, because you've pointed out (correctly, IMO) several times that Peyton Manning's playoff performance takes a drastic dip below his regular season form. Now Peyton Manning has played only 22 playoff games vs. 251 regular season games...is it fair to knock him based on 8% of the total games he's played?

I think it is. Just like I think it's fair with Romo. Not all games are the same. Destroying Jacksonville in October isn't the same as playing in Foxboro in January. The stakes are higher and the competition is better.

Romo is a good quarterback, but no one is going to remember him for lighting up some bad Giants defenses. If he wants to go from good to great, he's going to have to get it done when the stakes are highest. That's just the way it is.

In comment 12000220 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Im sure he doesnt. Its quite another to explain away 1 playoff win with some lazy romo choker nonsense. Its a team game, and you shouldnt do too much confusing of team accomplishments with individual evaluations. Some people will never ever grasp this though.

That's not true, Joe. He's directly responsible for some of those. Namely game ending INT's or no shows in must win situations.

You can't just write those off because they don't fit YOU'RE narrative, just like I'm not writing off the fact that the guy is great much more than he is a "choker".

.

narratives exist because the average career of a player isn't going to give a good enough sample size to satisfy the scientific method.

The Cowboys have been 8-8 the past three years. Not sure what determines "clutch" as it is a really overused term, but there had to be some games in there where the job wasn't done for whatever reason.

Some guys get labeled. Jim Kelly and Boomer Esiason couldn't ever win the big game. Didn't really diminish the fact they were very good QB's. Marino never got a ring.

What has sort of plagued Romo is that in places where his team had a chance to win, he's made glaring mistakes that have prevented them from winning. You can't really point that out to some of the other QB's who came close but failed.

so he's saddled with that perception. Just like "The Drive" made Elway (which was just as much of a fuckup by the Browns for turning the ball over), Romo's mistakes make him. Mention Dwight Clark and people think "The Catch". It is what it is.

Until Romo changes that perception, it is what it is.

You really don't seem to pick up on that point very well though. You continue to harp on people who don't watch the NBA as if their perceptions don't matter.

Perceptions are often reality until the perceptions change. But something has to make that change. Beating the hapless Giants isn't the catalyst to do it.

When i think of peyton manning, my first thought is greatest qb career ive ever seen. Because i weigh the 92% more heavily than the more random 8%. I have made observations about his playoff career, and as you stated its not like he hasnt earned it. But in his case we're talking about an exponentially larger sample than romo, and we're talking about someone who set the bar higher than anyone ever has in the regular season. And yet with all that said, peytons postseason dip wouldnt ever cause me to act like he doesnt belong in a goat convo. Because thats where the bulk of his career leads him

of what we're talking about here.

Yeah, he's arguably the greatest of all time, but his postseason reputation is well earned.

Horrible performance in his first Superbowl, threw a game icing pick six in his second.

Many one and done's before ever getting over the hump. Shut out 41-0 in one of them.

It's just as much part of his career as anything else. Same as Romo.

In comment 12000259 MarshallOnMontana said:

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When i think of peyton manning, my first thought is greatest qb career ive ever seen. Because i weigh the 92% more heavily than the more random 8%. I have made observations about his playoff career, and as you stated its not like he hasnt earned it. But in his case we're talking about an exponentially larger sample than romo, and we're talking about someone who set the bar higher than anyone ever has in the regular season. And yet with all that said, peytons postseason dip wouldnt ever cause me to act like he doesnt belong in a goat convo. Because thats where the bulk of his career leads him

But for an athlete or the die hard fan, what means more? The 92% or the 8%? Do you think Peyton is going to cherish that passing records or the SB trophy?

Marino admits to this day he still thinks about never winning one. Guys like Kelly, Fouts, Moon, etc have all mentioned the missing void in their careers.

I think there is a lot to be said about a guy who plays very year in and year out, but I think a lot of people would agree that the QB position is the most important position in sports. So fair or not, failing in spots where your team needs to win to advance is going to hurt your label. And Romo has made a ton of big mistakes that prohibited his team from advancing.

Stats are great and all, bu sustained success in the playoffs is what matters. Isnt it amazing in his last 10 years, Brady missed an entire year, lost 2 SBs..... and in the time he has gone from very good to a GOAT candidate. WHy? Because he put up great stats, and still won in the playoffs. They didnt get any more rings, but his legacy wasnt tarnished.

memories > stats.

Romo has been very good for Dallas and as I said earlier, I will be glad when he is no longer the QB in Dallas.

In comment 12000259 MarshallOnMontana said:

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When i think of peyton manning, my first thought is greatest qb career ive ever seen. Because i weigh the 92% more heavily than the more random 8%. I have made observations about his playoff career, and as you stated its not like he hasnt earned it. But in his case we're talking about an exponentially larger sample than romo, and we're talking about someone who set the bar higher than anyone ever has in the regular season. And yet with all that said, peytons postseason dip wouldnt ever cause me to act like he doesnt belong in a goat convo. Because thats where the bulk of his career leads him

And the bulk of Romo's career leads him to be a good regular season player and little else.

Of Romo's 122 total games, four have been in the playoffs (3.3%). That's not some incomparable number to Manning's. Is there some threshold between Romo's 3% (4 games) and Manning's 8% (22 games) where we can definitively say, "There, now we can weigh his playoff performances more heavily"?

And we have to remember that we can point to specific errors by Romo that are major reasons he hasn't played in more playoff games.

Again, not all games are created equal. There's a reason that, gun to your head, everyone in their right minds would pick Joe Montana to win them one game over Peyton Manning. It's the same here with Romo. He's a really good player that has had some really bad errors at the worst possible times. You can't just throw those errors out because they are a small sample size...those errors have ended seasons.

For me it's no contest. I'm not framing stats and putting them on the wall.

I come back to John Elway in "America's Game". He had to have that title to feel complete. Are we really going to give the Broncos' four playoff games in 1997 the same weight as four regular season games against the Seahawks over the years when putting Elway's career in perspective?

I think peyton manning will cherish both his place in history individually and his sb trophy, more than anything i think he is relieved he does have the sb because it stamped his individual career in many eyes. I dont think dan marino looks at trent dilfer and thinks "that guy accomplished more than i did". I dont think tom brady was better from 01 to 04 than he has been from 07 on, do you?

Everyone would love to have titles, and play their best in the biggest games. But people are being disingenuous or mistaken if they dont believe there is a good degree of luck and randomness to that, especially in a single elimination league like the nfl.

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But people are being disingenuous or mistaken if they dont believe there is a good degree of luck and randomness to that, especially in a single elimination league like the nfl.

No more than there is in racking up stats. Peyton Manning had the good fortune of having some great offensive teammates over the years. His father never did and suffered dearly for it.

We can talk about what could be or would be forever. In the end you always come back to what is. Romo IS a really good quarterback who's made some crucial errors at the worst possible times. That's what he's going to be until he doesn't make those errors anymore.

Of course you dont rate them the same, but its silly how much it swings in the other direction with many with such a small sampl

And its silly how much the perception of elway changed overnight after 15 years because he rode in the backseat on a loaded denver team as a 37 and 38 year old.

No one with a brain is saying Romo sucks.

But the driving force behind his season in season out consistency is him

and theres never existed an athlete who gets more passes than archie. He basically gets a pass for his whole career. It is what it is, and im not saying there isnt some degree of truth to it. But in the 21st century his legacy isnt really possible. "Heres a guy who never did much of anything, but its only because every last one of his teammates absolutely sucked. He was really great though."

?

In comment 12000388 MarshallOnMontana said:

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But the driving force behind his season in season out consistency is him and theres never existed an athlete who gets more passes than archie. He basically gets a pass for his whole career. It is what it is, and im not saying there isnt some degree of truth to it. But in the 21st century his legacy isnt really possible. "Heres a guy who never did much of anything, but its only because every last one of his teammates absolutely sucked. He was really great though."

Archie was just an example off the top of my head. Sorry I even brought him up.

Either way, doesn't change anything about Romo.

If there weren't narratives, or stories to players, careers, games, or seasons...

Then only math geeks and number crunchers would watch.

Thats not anyones quote individually, thats just the collective summation of archies career and his legacy in a nutshell.

after November - come talk to me again about him after December.

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I think peyton manning will cherish both his place in history individually and his sb trophy, more than anything i think he is relieved he does have the sb because it stamped his individual career in many eyes.

Peyton is relieved that he won't be viewed as Marino. Tony does not have that. Not even close.

You've said many times that this is the age QB statistics on steroids.

It's also the age where whichever team has the ball last usually wins.

Those numbers will not be all that uncommon. In the end, as has been stated by other posters, it's the memories that will last.

If Romo doesn't doesn't add the playoff resume, he'll just be another "also ran" in history.

if it wasn't for the Superbowl, nobody would remember him. That's how powerful the Superbowl is.

Now, his name is brought up regularly, no matter how infamous the reason.

Only do so because they prefer their own more simple statistics. Like ring count. Or playoff record. Which are the most flawed gauges of all as they are purely team statistics. Its not like youre making an argument based on skillset, delivery, footwork, arm strength, accuracy, field vision, etc. Nope. Its "this guys not clutch because look at his teams record in playoff games." And "This guy is better than that guy because he has x rings against his zero. " its ridiculously simple minded crap.

They're not just looking at the record.

They are seeing Romo throw a pick with a must win game on the line with their own eyes.

They are seeing these things happen on highlights on Sportscenter and then beaten to death on talk radio all week.

It's just just looking at a piece of paper. It's seeing these things unfold and judging them, right, wrong, or indifferent.

.

I'd argue that it's you that's looking at the piece of paper and creating a narrative off the numbers, not everybody else.

that the rest of the general public is too simple to comprehend.

So trent dilfer is more known today than he otherwise would have been. Good for him. But that has nothing to do with me needing to think more highly of his career than i otherwise would have because he won a sb.

And i think peyton is happy he wont go down wkth dan marinos legacy to be sure. But i think it speaks of the pathetic state of the american sports fan that dan marinos legacy is some sort of dirty word.

In fact, I feel like you're creating a false narrative now, like there's some majority of fans that discredit Marino's skills. I haven't seen it. He's regularly discussed as one of the top ten all time, is he not?

never won a ring is probably Dan Marino.

In comment 12000462 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Only do so because they prefer their own more simple statistics. Like ring count. Or playoff record. Which are the most flawed gauges of all as they are purely team statistics. Its not like youre making an argument based on skillset, delivery, footwork, arm strength, accuracy, field vision, etc. Nope. Its "this guys not clutch because look at his teams record in playoff games." And "This guy is better than that guy because he has x rings against his zero. " its ridiculously simple minded crap.

So Jeff George is a better quarterback than Joe Montana? Because as a pure passer George blew him away. Blew away Peyton Manning too.

All those traits you listed matter a great deal, and are basically what you judge a QB on. But if you think those factors stay the same for every guy during a regular season game in Tampa or the fourth quarter of a Super Bowl, you're kidding yourself.

These guys aren't robots. You can't just assume they perform to their abilities under all circumstances. Romo happens to be a guy that has played below his capabilities in critical circumstances...and that matters because it's those situations that most heavily determine the success or failure of his teams.

In comment 12000469 Britt in VA said:

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They're not just looking at the record. They are seeing Romo throw a pick with a must win game on the line with their own eyes. They are seeing these things happen on highlights on Sportscenter and then beaten to death on talk radio all week. It's just just looking at a piece of paper. It's seeing these things unfold and judging them, right, wrong, or indifferent.

and then when confronted with evidence that this truly doesnt happen more regularly with him than most qbs, they arent phased. They just brush it off. They just mumble some nonsense about perception being reality, state his teams playoff record. Rail against stats. State his teams playoff record again. Needlessly inject eli out of a natural desire to favorably compare him to any qb being discussed. State his teams playoff record again. Rinse, repeat