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NFT: "DiMaggio was overrated in CF"

DanMetroMan : 11/25/2014 8:07 am
"MLB historian John Thorn argues analytics prove Joe DiMaggio is not the as great as his legacy makes him out to be. HO/REUTERS MLB historian John Thorn argues analytics prove Joe DiMaggio is not the as great as his legacy makes him out to be.

On the date of what would have been his 100th birthday, the late Joe DiMaggio’s larger-than-life legacy lives on for countless Yankee fans whose opinions of the Hall of Famer are shaped largely by the breathless stories passed down from parents or grandparents.

In short: DiMaggio was the greatest center fielder of all time; no room for argument.

Except the evolution of analytics in baseball, particularly defensive metrics in this case, dispels such a notion, according to John Thorn, the official historian of Major League Baseball.

“There is this image of the Yankee Clipper sailing so gracefully in the outfield that he never had to dive for a ball," Thorn was saying Monday. “But the reality is that his contemporaries rec"orded more putouts."

I obviously never saw DiMaggio play but I had always heard from people (including my "biased" NY/SF Giant loving grandpa that Mays was "no doubt the best ever in CF", I can't offer my opinion on DiMaggio was the opinion always he was the greatest defensive CF ever? I'm not arguing he wasn't, just had always heard Mays, Griffey and Andruw.



Link - ( New Window )
I always thought "the greatest CF ever"  
BillT : 11/25/2014 8:11 am : link
Was in respect to his overall play and not just his defensive prowess. He was an excellent defensive player along with being a brilliant offensive player thus "the greatest CF ever". At least that's my understanding.
If Willie Mays was dead  
Headhunter : 11/25/2014 8:14 am : link
he be spinning in his grave
Sorry Joe D  
DanMetroMan : 11/25/2014 8:19 am : link



(I'm kidding)
Summer of '49  
aquidneck : 11/25/2014 8:19 am : link
by David Halberstam offers a look at the unfolding pennant race with Ted Williams' Boston Red Sox.

DiMaggio was at the end of his career. In and out of the line-up. Brother Dom played CF for the Sox.

Pretty good read. Gives us a look at a heroic DiMaggio through the eyes of a 10-year old fan as well as reflective views offered by contemporaries and team mates interviewed years later.
RE: Summer of '49  
DanMetroMan : 11/25/2014 8:21 am : link
In comment 12000019 aquidneck said:
Quote:
by David Halberstam offers a look at the unfolding pennant race with Ted Williams' Boston Red Sox.

DiMaggio was at the end of his career. In and out of the line-up. Brother Dom played CF for the Sox.

Pretty good read. Gives us a look at a heroic DiMaggio through the eyes of a 10-year old fan as well as reflective views offered by contemporaries and team mates interviewed years later.


I'll check it out. I'm trying to get more into reading more about baseball history. Obviously I know what I know but this sounds like a good read.
MAYS end of discussion  
Jupiter : 11/25/2014 8:22 am : link
Joe D's legacy was created during a 15-year period when there was no TV and few players comparable. Maybe Grandpa meant the best centerfielder of the first half century.
I thought Willie Mays is considered the greatest  
section125 : 11/25/2014 8:26 am : link
centerfielder? Joe D was great and certainly deserves to be up there with Willie if not above Willie.
My mother lived in the Bronx and went to games all the time and told me about Joe D and it seems her remembrance's mimicked the stories of Joe D's defensive ability.

It is hard to judge defensive ability looking at numbers only. That others had more put outs means nothing if the Yankees pitchers were not giving up fly outs to centerfield.

Also Offensively, it was said that had Joe D and Ted Williams had switched teams, taking advantage of both ballparks dimensions, Ted may hit over 600 HRs in HRs despite all his Marine service time and Joe D would be close to 500 hrs.

I am very dubious of revisionist history.
RE: MAYS end of discussion  
DanMetroMan : 11/25/2014 8:29 am : link
In comment 12000024 Jupiter said:
Quote:
Joe D's legacy was created during a 15-year period when there was no TV and few players comparable. Maybe Grandpa meant the best centerfielder of the first half century.


Jupiter, my grandpa said Mays and it wasn't close. He just is somewhat biased as a huge Giants fan lol But I thought that was the "general" agreement amongst the masses? That Mays was "the greatest" in CF.
RE: I thought Willie Mays is considered the greatest  
DanMetroMan : 11/25/2014 8:31 am : link
In comment 12000028 section125 said:
Quote:
centerfielder? Joe D was great and certainly deserves to be up there with Willie if not above Willie.
My mother lived in the Bronx and went to games all the time and told me about Joe D and it seems her remembrance's mimicked the stories of Joe D's defensive ability.

It is hard to judge defensive ability looking at numbers only. That others had more put outs means nothing if the Yankees pitchers were not giving up fly outs to centerfield.

Also Offensively, it was said that had Joe D and Ted Williams had switched teams, taking advantage of both ballparks dimensions, Ted may hit over 600 HRs in HRs despite all his Marine service time and Joe D would be close to 500 hrs.

I am very dubious of revisionist history.


I used to have 2 older neighbors (RIP) who lived in the same building as a bunch of the Yankees and one of them said one day she found Joe DiMaggio (and others) climbing down through her terrace to get somewhere else. I forget the details but one of those wild stories you can't even believe.
Not arguing for one or the other  
BillT : 11/25/2014 8:35 am : link
162 game averages:

Mays 22 years, 36 HR, 103 RBI .302 BA

DiMaggio 13 years, 34 HR, 143 RBI, .325 BA
Not for nothing  
Headhunter : 11/25/2014 8:36 am : link
I think Joe's brother Dom was considered the best DiMaggio to play CF
RE: Not arguing for one or the other  
DanMetroMan : 11/25/2014 8:36 am : link
In comment 12000041 BillT said:
Quote:
162 game averages:

Mays 22 years, 36 HR, 103 RBI .302 BA

DiMaggio 13 years, 34 HR, 143 RBI, .325 BA


Bill,
This article is only about the defensive side of the game. This historian is arguing defensively DiMaggio was not the best CF ever.
Never saw  
blapre74 : 11/25/2014 8:41 am : link
Joltin' joe, but he couldn't have been as great all around as Mays, and as far as Williams hitting in Yankee Stadium? Williams, in his biography, said Fenway was kind to him because of the green background. In old Yankee Stadium, the background, with men in center field wearing white shirts, was more difficult to pick up the ball. :)A very good baseball book that I just finished is david halberstam's October 1964.
Headhunter is correct. Dom was considered the better CF.  
idinkido : 11/25/2014 8:43 am : link
Joe was effortless in appearance and made everything look easy. Mantle was also a great CF and Mays was the best of all time.
RE: RE: Not arguing for one or the other  
BillT : 11/25/2014 8:53 am : link
In comment 12000045 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 12000041 BillT said:


Quote:


162 game averages:

Mays 22 years, 36 HR, 103 RBI .302 BA

DiMaggio 13 years, 34 HR, 143 RBI, .325 BA



Bill,
This article is only about the defensive side of the game. This historian is arguing defensively DiMaggio was not the best CF ever.


Dan, Did you see my first post? I don't think his interpretation of "best CF ever" is the correct one.
Dan  
Greg from LI : 11/25/2014 8:55 am : link
If you're looking to read something wayyyy back in baseball history, The Summer of Beer and Whiskey is excellent. It's about the old American Association of the 1880s
Link - ( New Window )
Like Jeter  
Samiam : 11/25/2014 8:56 am : link
It's not just about statistics. I never saw DiMaggio play. The best CF I ever saw was Mays. But, I know several people who saw him play and know the game and say that DiMaggio was not only the best CF they ever saw, he was the best ballplayer they ever saw.
Dan  
BillT : 11/25/2014 8:57 am : link
The argument he makes doesn't really add up nor do some of the others here. Mays, Mantle DiMaggio but no Paul Blair. He was as good if not better as any I've ever seen but he doesn't get a mention because he not in the same category of player. So it really isn't defense only.
I think this guy is trolling for a little publicity.  
Section331 : 11/25/2014 9:05 am : link
I don't doubt that fans have an inflated view of DiMaggio's prowess, but this "historian" using put outs as the sole criteria for defensive value is ludicrous. It's worse than using batting average as a sole evaluation for hitters.
RE: I think this guy is trolling for a little publicity.  
Dunedin81 : 11/25/2014 9:08 am : link
In comment 12000127 Section331 said:
Quote:
I don't doubt that fans have an inflated view of DiMaggio's prowess, but this "historian" using put outs as the sole criteria for defensive value is ludicrous. It's worse than using batting average as a sole evaluation for hitters.


Exactly. Yankees hating/trolling.
RE: Dan  
DanMetroMan : 11/25/2014 9:12 am : link
In comment 12000090 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
If you're looking to read something wayyyy back in baseball history, The Summer of Beer and Whiskey is excellent. It's about the old American Association of the 1880s Link - ( New Window )


Greg,
I'll def check it out. Not much to do baseball wise until ST, the Knicks and Giants have given me extra free time lol
Here  
DanMetroMan : 11/25/2014 9:16 am : link
is John Thorn's bio/career
Link - ( New Window )
Not  
DanMetroMan : 11/25/2014 9:17 am : link
to miller my own thread but Adam Rubin made his HOF ballot public

Schilling but no Mussina?  
Greg from LI : 11/25/2014 9:44 am : link
BOOOOOOOOOO
"Overrated" is just a buzzword to create controversy.  
Del Shofner : 11/25/2014 10:06 am : link
DiMaggio was an incredible hitter by any measure, and by all accounts a good center fielder defensively. An amazing all-around player who played CF. It's not a shocker to say that Willie Mays or for that matter Paul Blair were better in CF defensively. As to who was best "all around" CF ever - I'm a Yankee fan but it's hard to argue against Mays.
seems like if you're using putouts  
Enzo : 11/25/2014 10:09 am : link
as the metric then you have to take into account the huge OF in the old yankee stadium.
Maybe 're"corded more putouts"'  
old man : 11/25/2014 10:09 am : link
because more fly balls were hit to them in CF?
'evolution of analytics'? Does that equal scueing more to the modern era data?
I could be more understanding of that perspective if the writer was GARY Thorn(e).
how do you do metrics  
Peter from CT : 11/25/2014 10:30 am : link
if you don't have film from the old games? It then just comes down to the data you have, which doesn't mean much.

Without any of that it is just a bunch of prejudiced memories of fans of different teams. Exactly the thing that metrics is supposed to overcome. But without a good data set its hard to really be definitive.

At the end of the day, does it matter who was the best. There is a long way from "the best ever" to saying he was over-rated. But it gets us talking.
Paul Blair was a great CF.  
section125 : 11/25/2014 10:36 am : link
He's not near Joe DiMaggio or Willie Mays. Close defensively, but nowhere near the offensive player.
Mays  
Jim in Fairfax : 11/25/2014 10:47 am : link

The Catch - ( New Window )
RE: Mays  
Bill in UT : 11/25/2014 11:30 am : link
In comment 12000381 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
The Catch - ( New Window )


Big deal. Odell could have done that without the glove
RE: Mays  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/25/2014 11:52 am : link
In comment 12000381 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
The Catch - ( New Window )


WOW, look at that wall.

Stadium design by Fred and Jeff Wilpon.
I respect DiMaggio for being an icon  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 11/25/2014 12:22 pm : link
but he was absolutely overhyped.

He was very graceful and his "never dove" style of play has been romanticized. But based on what I've read, I think it's a fair assumption to make that DiMaggio wasn't a historically great defensive OFer like a Mays, a Speaker, an Ashurn, or even his brother. I think there's definitely a little "Jeter" to DiMaggio when it comes to fielding perception. Smoother than he was good.

It was an absolute joke when DiMaggio was named "The Greatest Living Player" in '69. First of all, Ted Williams was better. Second of all, Willie Mays was better. 3rd of all, Stan Musial was better. 4th of all, Mickey Mantle was better. I also get slight douche chills thinking about how DiMaggio demanded to be called "The Greatest Living Player" when he was older. Talk about an ego.

Still, he was an amazing player and one of the greatest ever. The War took a chunk out of his career and he could've added to his career resume. But he's definitely a tiny bit overrated historically due to how important a Pop Icon he was.

DiMaggio  
Phil in LA : 11/25/2014 12:31 pm : link
was overrated, but he was also hurt by being a right handed hitter on old YS.
To what Phil said....  
Greg from LI : 11/25/2014 12:41 pm : link
DiMaggio career stats:
Home: 880 games, .315/.391/.546, 148 HR
Road: 856 games, .333/.405/.610, 213 HR

Yankee Stadium absolutely depressed his production at the plate. Overrated, maybe, but still an incredible player.
yea no argument there  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 11/25/2014 1:07 pm : link
DiMaggio would've put up stupid(er) numbers in Fenway if he played his entire career there.
favorite random Joe D stats:  
Enzo : 11/25/2014 1:20 pm : link
-361 home runs / 369 strikeouts
-9 Rings in 13 seasons (wow)
In the aforementioned Halberstam book Summer of '49  
Greg from LI : 11/25/2014 2:21 pm : link
He mentions a story that Larry MacPhail and Tom Yawkey ran into each other in a bar one night in the mid-40s and drunkenly agreed to trade DiMaggio for Williams, for the sensible reason that each player would be better suited for the other's home park. DiMaggio would have worn out the Monster and the Splinter would have likely hit 600+ homers in Yankee Stadium. When they sobered up in the morning, they both agreed to nix the trade.
DiMaggio  
Phil in LA : 11/25/2014 2:43 pm : link
was on some incredible teams, and mostly played the OF with King Kong Keller and Tommy Henrich, both of whom had fantastic careers disrupted by WWII, then Keller, later again by a back injury. But that was one of the all time OF's.
Three MVPs...  
Dunedin81 : 11/25/2014 3:02 pm : link
two #2 finishes, one #3, top 10 in voting every year but two (his first year back from the war and an injury-shortened half-year in which he still finished 12th in the voting). #67 in career WAR. Sounds unimpressive? Among liveball era ballplayers, the next guy on the list who played as few or fewer seasons is Jackie Robinson at #162. His claim to be the Greatest Living Ballplayer was not the most humble assertion in the world, but it wasn't groundless.
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