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Would you consider JPP a candidate for the franchise tag?

Ben in Tampa : 11/25/2014 10:07 am
Historically speaking, the Giants have not been a franchise that has exercised its option to use the franchise tag on its players. If I'm remembering correctly, Weatherford is the only player to receive that designation.

JPP is one of the most difficult looming free agent decisions the Giants have had to make in the Reese era. A player with incredibly freakish athletic ability, at times game changing dominant but has largely been disappointing since 2011. Factors to also consider: not always healthy and lack of talent around him.

The Giants probably do not want to lose their former 1st round pick, but assuming JPP & agent want top tier money, the front office is probably leery at this point of giving him a long term deal that would need to average $14-17 million a year.

Do you consider JPP a candidate for the franchise tag? The exclusive version of the tag in 2014 was $13.1 million a year. The average of the top 5 salaries at the position. This number does not include JJ Watt's $16MM per year deal.

Once you factor in Watt's deal, the average of the top 5 salaries for DEs for next year would be $14.5 Million. That number could move slightly down if certain contracts are terminated, or way up if bigger contracts are added in the offseason. The salary cap is projected to grow 7%.

The franchise tag would make JPP one of the highest paid players on the 2015 roster, but not lock the Giants into a long term high average contract they may not be comfortable giving following the 2014 season.

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RE: No way....  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:16 pm : link
In comment 12000620 damdevs said:
Quote:
Let him field offers and he walks, he walks.

This guy is average at best. When he's gone against top LT he's been a non factor. And you add the injury tag to him and I would be very leery to giving him a long term contract.


So you don't understand that a franchise tag is a 1 year deal? The whole point of being concerned giving him a big deal for long term is more reason to consider a 1 year franchise tag.
RE: See, I disagree.  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:17 pm : link
In comment 12000622 Curtis in VA said:
Quote:
I think the team has ended up in this predicament because they either hold on to average players too long or overpay to keep them.

Keeping JPP would, in my view, continue that trend.


Please cite example of average players that we held for too long or overpayed. Average players don't have seasons like JPP had in 2011 for the record.
RE: See, I disagree.  
cosmicj : 11/25/2014 12:18 pm : link
In comment 12000622 Curtis in VA said:
Quote:
I think the team has ended up in this predicament because they either hold on to average players too long or overpay to keep them.

Keeping JPP would, in my view, continue that trend.


I agree that Reese made a series of mistakes with overpaying older OLs and probably with Beason. But he's also made some mistakes with Linval, the Black Unicorn and probably Bradshaw, not retaining players who can contribute. I see JPP as more fitting the latter category.
Look at the offensive line.  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 12:21 pm : link
There are a few players there that were held onto for too long, or at least started longer than they should've. Now our line is crap. The Giants have plenty of players on the roster now that shouldn't be here. Thats why there's no talent, because they give their players too long to develop. How many failed draft picks have sat on this roster longer than they should've?

JPP is not the player he was in 2011 and I don't think he ever will be. That player from 2011 was outstanding. This player is a good run defender with below average pass rushing technique.
Curtis, can you be more specific...  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:23 pm : link
Which guys on the OL have JPP potential that were paid big bucks have held us back.
kmed,  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 12:24 pm : link
what potential? He is who he is. An average player. The potential you speak of is non-existent.
Let's also keep in mind that we  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:24 pm : link
have a defensive coordinator that seems to bring out the worst in everybody and he's one of the only guys on the defense that offenses need to gameplan for. JPP was an animal in 2011 and then battled some injuries. He still has that potential.
He's 25 years old and just 3 years ago he had  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:26 pm : link
16.5 sacks and was unblockable. He most certainly has potential. I get that he's a big risk to give a big long deal to, but this thread is asking about a 1 year franchise tag.
RE: RE: See, I disagree.  
WahooGiant : 11/25/2014 12:26 pm : link
In comment 12000630 kmed said:
Quote:
In comment 12000622 Curtis in VA said:


Quote:


I think the team has ended up in this predicament because they either hold on to average players too long or overpay to keep them.

Keeping JPP would, in my view, continue that trend.



Please cite example of average players that we held for too long or overpayed. Average players don't have seasons like JPP had in 2011 for the record.


Kiwi
great, he was an animal in 2011.  
Greg from LI : 11/25/2014 12:26 pm : link
It's 2014 and he generates very little pass rush, and hasn't learned a goddamned thing about pass rush techniques.
Wahoo,  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:26 pm : link
Kiwi isn't in JPP's world, not even close. Kiwi never had success anywhere close to what JPP has done. Try again?
No...  
AnnapolisMike : 11/25/2014 12:27 pm : link
JPP is probably a guy you want to keep around. But not at a franchise number. JPP is effectively a one year wonder. That one year being 3 years ago at this point. I do not think he is getting top DE money...and if he does...let him go.

I agree,  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:27 pm : link
he hasn't progressed, I think part of that is the defensive coach, but there's no argument that he hasn't tapped any of that potential since 2011. Mostly because of injuries, but there are other reasons. Again though, franchise tag is 1 year. Also gives the giants some leverage to sign him to a team friendly deal OR trade him for assets.
Greg  
cosmicj : 11/25/2014 12:28 pm : link
hence the comment about seeing how he does with different coaches. Hence my suggestion that Fewell be replaced immediately and a different approach is taken, if for just 5 games.
No but sign him  
deadkurtrulz : 11/25/2014 12:28 pm : link
at a reasonable price. He will not command top dollar on the open market as he has lost that explosive first step and has not developed into a top pass rusher. He can still be an effective DE but don't over pay him.
Keep in mind that the Gmen  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:28 pm : link
will not be cap strapped and will have plenty of money available under the cap. It's really a no brainer, despite his underwhelming performance.
RE: Wahoo,  
WahooGiant : 11/25/2014 12:29 pm : link
In comment 12000660 kmed said:
Quote:
Kiwi isn't in JPP's world, not even close. Kiwi never had success anywhere close to what JPP has done. Try again?


Your post was to give an example of an average player we held on for too long, not whether JPP was an average player.
Sure, if he applies himself.  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 12:30 pm : link
But so far he has chosen not to do that.

I get the reasons for keeping him or franchising him or whatever. I just disagree. Even moreso over the course of this thread. If it were up to me, I'd just cut bait now and move on. Consider him another failed draft pick - a dim bulb with a big mouth - and look for a replacement.

Thats just my opinion. Like I said, I get what you're saying, I just disagree.
..  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:31 pm : link
Curtis, can you be more specific...
kmed : 12:23 pm : link : reply
Which guys on the OL have JPP potential that were paid big bucks have held us back.
Curtis, that's just bad business,  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:32 pm : link
especially when you can probably get something for him if you play your cards right. You can overpay him for ONE year to give him more time, in a year where we will have a ton of money under the cap to do so. Not to mention, we are extremely void of talent and potential on defense, this would just add another hole. I really don't see the argument for just letting him walk.
I've given examples and someone else brought up Kiwi.  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 12:35 pm : link
O'Hara, Diehl, Kiwi - plus a host of other draft busts still collecting a paycheck now, or have collected one too long.

As far as his potential - like I said - I don't see it anymore.
Releasing JPP because he's overpriced in the vet FA market  
cosmicj : 11/25/2014 12:35 pm : link
essentially means resigning oneself to overpaying for a vet FA from another team. If the vet FAs are overpriced in the open market, that rule applies to players from all teams hitting the open market.

And it isn't like we're letting go of JPP to make sure we can sign other young Giants to long-term contracts, right?
First of all,  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:36 pm : link
most(if not all) of those guys have nowhere near the potential that JPP has(we saw it in 2011). Not to mention, he's 25 years old!! Those guys were all old and broken down.
Also,  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:37 pm : link
if the Gmen felt like Ayers and Moore were the future, they'd be playing more than that loser Kiwi who plays about 50 snaps too many as is.
I don't think its bad business.  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 12:37 pm : link
Other teams cut star players loose all the time. Winning teams. We've seen the Patriots do it and the Eagles as well.
How is JPP a failed  
rocco8112 : 11/25/2014 12:38 pm : link
draft pick?

Guy is an above average player at absolute worst and was all world in '11. Plus that blocked FG in Dallas, one of the biggest plays in Giants history.

Now, he has disappointed based on the how high the bar was set after '11. He probably has not adjusted well to being "the guy". He certainly no longer has as strong a supporting case around him on the D line.

It comes down to cost and cap management. I do not know enough about it to make the call and I think the Giants have to blow up the whole D. Rebuild it soup to nuts.

That said, JPP maybe the best player on the D and one of the few to build around. To me it all comes down to cost. Whether it makes the most sense to franchise him or not related to the cap I am not sure.

I am sure though, that despite what disappointment there is about this season and JPP's failed expectations, that he is not a draft bust.
RE: First of all,  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 12:38 pm : link
In comment 12000698 kmed said:
Quote:
most(if not all) of those guys have nowhere near the potential that JPP has(we saw it in 2011). Not to mention, he's 25 years old!! Those guys were all old and broken down.


You're talking about potential from 3 years ago.

???
Curtis,  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:40 pm : link
I understand that. Cleraly he hasn't been the same guy, but it's clearly in there. He's battled major injuries for 2 of the seasons since 2011. He's been underwhelming so far this season, but there are a lot of reasons why. It's way more risky to let a guy like him walk for nothing than it is to give him a large ONE year deal.
so what happens next year?  
fkap : 11/25/2014 12:40 pm : link
you've just paid him 10-15 mil for one year. now you have to pay him again.

Franchise is for proven players, not ones you hope will pan out. and you only franchise if your team is devastated without him.

The problem with JPP is that the team is worse without him (because, honestly, who replaces him that is definitely in the fold?). But, the team isn't all that good with him. I'm the first to admit I'm not much of a talent evaluator, but when I key on JPP, I see a guy who gets shut down fairly easily.

It's a problem because we will be worse letting him go, but we won't get better keeping him, and status quo simply isn't acceptable.
rocco,  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 12:41 pm : link
bust might be a strong word...and it might not be. So far he hasn't lived up to the expectations that came with him on draft day. Regardless, he hasn't earned anything in my opinion. I let him walk and move on.
Oh I didn't know the rule  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:43 pm : link
that the tag was for proven players, my bad.

You tag him, he has a bad year, he walks the following year. Not sure how you couldn't figure that one out.
RE: Curtis,  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 12:50 pm : link
In comment 12000718 kmed said:
Quote:
I understand that. Cleraly he hasn't been the same guy, but it's clearly in there. He's battled major injuries for 2 of the seasons since 2011. He's been underwhelming so far this season, but there are a lot of reasons why. It's way more risky to let a guy like him walk for nothing than it is to give him a large ONE year deal.


Thats a lot of money. Money that can be used this year to fill other holes.

Just because the Giants let him go doesn't mean they are stuck with a hole there. Its extremely rare that a player is so good they are irreplaceable. And JPP certainly isn't that player. Like I said before, we see other teams let their star players go all the time. But they move on and find someone else. Carolina moved on from Julius Peppers just fine, off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others that have as well.
he's not remotely a bust  
Greg from LI : 11/25/2014 12:53 pm : link
Cedric Jones, now that was a bust. He is a major disappointment post-2011, but he's still a decent player. He's just not anything special these past few years. Excels against the run, struggles to get heat on the QB.
First of all,  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:56 pm : link
I believe Peppers was 31 when Carolina let him go. Also, it's worth nothing that he was already franchise tagged the year before and would have cost a great deal more to tag again.
I would like to hear all of the names  
kmed : 11/25/2014 12:58 pm : link
of 25 year old players that were drafted early/mid 1st round and showed potential as a superstar that were able to just walk. Id be surprised if you found many, if any at all. I just don't see any scenario in which JPP is just allowed to walk without getting something in return. I'm not saying he's a no brainer to sign to a long term deal, but I really don't see any way we don't at least franchise him if we can't agree to a deal that's fair for the gmen as well. Also leaves the door open for a trade.
Look at Hakeem Nicks.  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 12:59 pm : link
BBI was going nuts over letting him go.

They were right though. He never regained his dominant form and we are better off with a better player in Beckham Jr. The same would happen with JPP. He'd leave and people would be upset in the short term - worrying about how the Giants will ever replace the huge hole he left behind.

Then they draft someone new who is better and we're all happy again.

My main concern about JPP is his health  
jcn56 : 11/25/2014 1:00 pm : link
His work ethic is secondary, but I really think the work ethic applies to this entire team - they're underperformers/underachievers, and I don't see how you blame anyone but the coaching staff for that. Collectively, everyone seems to take a step backward when they get here, whether from college or elsewhere in the pros.

That's not to make light of the fact that some of these guys just weren't very good to begin with, but I don't think good talent can win if everyone is playing well below their max.

JPP might be better with a different coach, but I don't think it stops at Fewell. If the staff returns and we get another DC, I think we see marginal improvement at best (especially if he's moved to RDE). Might also get an additional boost because that'll truly be his contract year, but you could also end up with him complaining about a hurting back and making 'business decisions'.
The Gmen clearly value DE's more than anyone else.  
kmed : 11/25/2014 1:01 pm : link
I think Nicks is a fair comparison on the surface because he showed immense potential and was still young, but he clearly was not the same player he was. I was begging the gmen to let him walk, he is clearly a below average player who doesn't give a crap at this point in his career. He killed the gmen last year and they knew it.
spending 14 mil in one year  
fkap : 11/25/2014 1:42 pm : link
is for proven players, unless you're just a bad manager. Of course, that's just my opinion.

But seriously? you would spend 14 mil guaranteed on a player you're not sure is worth it? If you think he's worth it, it's a different discussion. But if you're not sure? seriously?

At this point, the Giants know what they have in JPP. If you think he's worth it, sign him long term. 14 mil is a starting point for guaranteed money. Franchising him means he gets that this year, and again next year when you sign him long term. IF you don't know what you have, let him walk now. it's too big a gamble.

Absolutely, the Giants value DE's highly.  
Curtis in VA : 11/25/2014 2:13 pm : link
But my thing is, his production and his attitude haven't warranted a big pay day. His value isn't there. Not even for one year. Maybe a new DC would change that. We don't really know that though.

Wouldn't be to difficult to find someone else who can improve on his 6 sacks a season while holding up against the run, and costing less. And maybe even bring an attitude improvement. He talks a lot of crap and doesn't back it up, and he seems immature. I'm just ready to move on.
Yes  
AcesUp : 11/25/2014 2:49 pm : link
Dependent on what team docs think of his longterm health. Yes, tying up that much cap space up for a player that has only performed at that level one year sucks, but it's not like we're a year away from the SB. Unfortunately, I believe that we're looking at transition year, so you're looking toward the future. Tagging him may motivate him to sign a more incentive laden contract in exchange for more longterm security and also gives us some leverage in potentially trading him for some value in return. Worst case, we tie up a lot of cap money in what will probably be a lost year. Maybe the stars align in that year and we have what we thought we'd have back in 2012. Don't think the Giants are in any position to let that sort of rare potential walk, even if it's likely he never reaches it.
No way would I use the Franchise Tag.  
Section331 : 11/25/2014 2:59 pm : link
I think the JPP we're seeing now is the real JPP. A good to very good player, but he's not the elite pass rusher we expected him to be. A good run stopper, can put some pressure on the QB, but not elite. Don't pay him like one. If another team wants to, thanks for the memories.
I would say no  
NYG07 : 11/25/2014 3:17 pm : link
He was exactly the spark plug this team needed along with Cruz in 2011. He is not that player anymore and quite frankly I am not sure he will ever be again.

He still shows flashes of brilliance yet dissapears for long stretches. You pay guys like Mario Williams, Mathis and Ware who continually put up 10+ sacks, regardless of the team.
Having a disruptive DE is so valuable in the NFL.  
kmed : 11/25/2014 7:19 pm : link
When you have a guy like JPP who is only 25 and has the potential to be dominant, but hasn't lived up to the hype enough......you give him every opportunity to prove that he isn't that guy. We can still control him for 1 more year with a franchise tag. It's obviously overpaying for his play of late, but it's worth the very short term investment. It also leaves open the opportunity that you can sign him to a team friendly deal or trade him for a major return.
Not to mention,  
kmed : 11/25/2014 7:22 pm : link
this whole scenario is only possible if the Giants don't sign JPP long term, which I believe they will try to do. Not at insane defense money, but a good fair deal.
RE: RE: See, I disagree.  
bigbluehoya : 11/25/2014 8:00 pm : link
In comment 12000630 kmed said:
Quote:
In comment 12000622 Curtis in VA said:


Quote:


I think the team has ended up in this predicament because they either hold on to average players too long or overpay to keep them.

Keeping JPP would, in my view, continue that trend.



Please cite example of average players that we held for too long or overpayed. Average players don't have seasons like JPP had in 2011 for the record.


Diehl, Snee

Beatty for 100% sure.
RE: NO  
spike : 11/25/2014 9:08 pm : link
In comment 12000397 vinnieNJ said:
Quote:
I would not franchise JPP
NO! Absolutely not!  
Tark10 : 11/26/2014 8:47 am : link
Offer what Reese thinks he is worth and let him get overpayed to play in Jax or Oakland.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You overpay for a guy like JPP if the team is winning  
Bill in UT : 11/26/2014 10:34 am : link
In comment 12000624 kmed said:
Quote:

Teams clearly key on JPP. That's not an excuse for his poor stats, he hasn't been great this year, but he's the guy teams focus on blocking.


All that I've noticed is that he's routinely controlled by the LT without help. Maybe I've missed something. THIS was the year for JPP to reach his potential. He's supposedly been healthy since the middle of last season.
NYG should be down with JPP, tag wise.  
MadTeck : 11/26/2014 2:52 pm : link
JPP had a chance to show how a mature, healthy and determined DE should play. It didn't pan out and our struggles to get to the quarterback have been one of many problems. It's too much to franchise him then sign to a long term deal. He should sign a 1-yr deal at half of the franchise cost and prove he deserves the contract Watt and others will get. Knowing his current performance is sub-par to his expectations and understanding the team needs talent elsewhere. NYG save the money and make him prove it!!
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