Historically speaking, the Giants have not been a franchise that has exercised its option to use the franchise tag on its players. If I'm remembering correctly, Weatherford is the only player to receive that designation.
JPP is one of the most difficult looming free agent decisions the Giants have had to make in the Reese era. A player with incredibly freakish athletic ability, at times game changing dominant but has largely been disappointing since 2011. Factors to also consider: not always healthy and lack of talent around him.
The Giants probably do not want to lose their former 1st round pick, but assuming JPP & agent want top tier money, the front office is probably leery at this point of giving him a long term deal that would need to average $14-17 million a year.
Do you consider JPP a candidate for the franchise tag? The exclusive version of the tag in 2014 was $13.1 million a year. The average of the top 5 salaries at the position. This number does not include JJ Watt's $16MM per year deal.
Once you factor in Watt's deal, the average of the top 5 salaries for DEs for next year would be $14.5 Million. That number could move slightly down if certain contracts are terminated, or way up if bigger contracts are added in the offseason. The salary cap is projected to grow 7%.
The franchise tag would make JPP one of the highest paid players on the 2015 roster, but not lock the Giants into a long term high average contract they may not be comfortable giving following the 2014 season.
Whereas, even signing JPP to a long term deal with an AAV = $14.5M would likely count only $7-8M against the 2015 cap.
+1
You franchise tag difference makers. JPP is an above average defensive lineman who frequently disappears during stretches and whose upside future potential is a big question makr,
He's not JJ Watt like we all hoped, but he's still a very good player.
This I would agree with. He right now is not woth $14 mill per season. Put a 1st rd tag on him and see if other teams try to sign him at more money.
He's not "chopped liver".
And he will probably go on a sack streak these next few weeks. The competition levels off.
JPP was unbelievable in '11. Since that year he's never approached his dominance.
You can't really pay a player based on potential though. Because if that potential doesn't work out, you are screwed cap-wise.
If the Giants can work out some type of deal that pays JPP well and also protects them if he doesn't improve on his pedestrian numbers then I think it might work out. I doubt that happens, however. He strikes me as someone who is going to go to the highest bidder.
The rookie contract is for potential. The 2nd contract is for results. He hasn't produced enough.
Yeah, he's still young, but has not shown that he can get back to what he was in 2011. Do you put a franchise tag and have to pay him top 5 DE money for a guy that hasn't deserved it? I think that would be foolish.
Robert Ayers has 5, and Damontre Moore as 3 - both with dramatically less playing time.
So you can't franchise JPP, because then you are paying him like a top 5 DE.
Would he play better with a DC that actually knows what they hell they are doing? If we had dealt with the underperforming Fewell 2 or 3 years ago we would know the answer to that.
Would he play better at LDE where he is better suited?
Would he play better if our other starter at DE was at least an average player? The use of our personnel on the DLine is a headscratcher. For a scheme that relies so much on a passrush from only the front 4 how is kiwi still a starter? what happened to the NASCAR package the last few weeks? Why is Ayers and Moore not getting more run in passing situations?
JPP is certainly a talented player but i wouldnt give him a huge long term contract and id be hesistant to even give him a 14mil franchise tag. Like somebody said above id more lean to the transition tag but dont really remember all the details and requirements of that.
That kind of loyalty to people who didn't earn it was what got the Giants into that black hole of awfulness we remember in the 1970s. I don't think they'll make that mistake again.
That kind of loyalty to people who didn't earn it was what got the Giants into that black hole of awfulness we remember in the 1970s. I don't think they'll make that mistake again.
Except that if you let JPP walk, this talent-depleted defense gets even depleteder. With JPP gone, you are facing a 2015 defense with 1 (count it , 1) plus player in the front 7, that player being Hankins.
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and he's part of a successful combination. Then you get to be generous and a little softhearted. But if the team is losing, as it is, you get ruthless. Nobody gets overpaid after back-to-back seasons like this. It's pay for performance only. You're better off bottoming out and [i]really[i/] starting over than paying guys who are very good (like JPP, Rolle) as if they are great.
That kind of loyalty to people who didn't earn it was what got the Giants into that black hole of awfulness we remember in the 1970s. I don't think they'll make that mistake again.
Except that if you let JPP walk, this talent-depleted defense gets even depleteder. With JPP gone, you are facing a 2015 defense with 1 (count it , 1) plus player in the front 7, that player being Hankins.
How does it get even depleteder when there are two defensive ends on the roster already who have been better at pressuring the QB in Ayers and Moore? And you have to ask yourself, if these guys can get to the QB in very limited opportunities, why can't Pierre Paul?
I know Coughlin doesn't work this way, but firing Fewell after the Jags game wouldn't be a dumb decision. People like Giunta have been NFL DCs and Jim Herrman was the Michigan DC for almost a decade. You have some experienced people coaching that defense. An interim DC would be given a mandate to switch things up to see if any of the young players emerge.
If building through the draft is the way to build your talent base, the corrolary is that - once you have a good young player on your team - you retain your draftees after their rookie contract. The two ideas are interlinked.
This guy is average at best. When he's gone against top LT he's been a non factor. And you add the injury tag to him and I would be very leery to giving him a long term contract.
Keeping JPP would, in my view, continue that trend.
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In comment 12000578 81_Great_Dane said:
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and he's part of a successful combination. Then you get to be generous and a little softhearted. But if the team is losing, as it is, you get ruthless. Nobody gets overpaid after back-to-back seasons like this. It's pay for performance only. You're better off bottoming out and [i]really[i/] starting over than paying guys who are very good (like JPP, Rolle) as if they are great.
That kind of loyalty to people who didn't earn it was what got the Giants into that black hole of awfulness we remember in the 1970s. I don't think they'll make that mistake again.
Except that if you let JPP walk, this talent-depleted defense gets even depleteder. With JPP gone, you are facing a 2015 defense with 1 (count it , 1) plus player in the front 7, that player being Hankins.
How does it get even depleteder when there are two defensive ends on the roster already who have been better at pressuring the QB in Ayers and Moore? And you have to ask yourself, if these guys can get to the QB in very limited opportunities, why can't Pierre Paul?
Teams clearly key on JPP. That's not an excuse for his poor stats, he hasn't been great this year, but he's the guy teams focus on blocking.
You don't pay a guy for past performance, you pay guys for what they will do in the future. JPP has a lot of untapped potential that sometimes takes longer to tap. I just don't see any scenario in which we let him walk for nothing.
This guy is average at best. When he's gone against top LT he's been a non factor. And you add the injury tag to him and I would be very leery to giving him a long term contract.
So you don't understand that a franchise tag is a 1 year deal? The whole point of being concerned giving him a big deal for long term is more reason to consider a 1 year franchise tag.
Keeping JPP would, in my view, continue that trend.
Please cite example of average players that we held for too long or overpayed. Average players don't have seasons like JPP had in 2011 for the record.
Keeping JPP would, in my view, continue that trend.
I agree that Reese made a series of mistakes with overpaying older OLs and probably with Beason. But he's also made some mistakes with Linval, the Black Unicorn and probably Bradshaw, not retaining players who can contribute. I see JPP as more fitting the latter category.
JPP is not the player he was in 2011 and I don't think he ever will be. That player from 2011 was outstanding. This player is a good run defender with below average pass rushing technique.
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I think the team has ended up in this predicament because they either hold on to average players too long or overpay to keep them.
Keeping JPP would, in my view, continue that trend.
Please cite example of average players that we held for too long or overpayed. Average players don't have seasons like JPP had in 2011 for the record.
Kiwi
Your post was to give an example of an average player we held on for too long, not whether JPP was an average player.
I get the reasons for keeping him or franchising him or whatever. I just disagree. Even moreso over the course of this thread. If it were up to me, I'd just cut bait now and move on. Consider him another failed draft pick - a dim bulb with a big mouth - and look for a replacement.
Thats just my opinion. Like I said, I get what you're saying, I just disagree.
kmed : 12:23 pm : link : reply
Which guys on the OL have JPP potential that were paid big bucks have held us back.
As far as his potential - like I said - I don't see it anymore.
And it isn't like we're letting go of JPP to make sure we can sign other young Giants to long-term contracts, right?
Guy is an above average player at absolute worst and was all world in '11. Plus that blocked FG in Dallas, one of the biggest plays in Giants history.
Now, he has disappointed based on the how high the bar was set after '11. He probably has not adjusted well to being "the guy". He certainly no longer has as strong a supporting case around him on the D line.
It comes down to cost and cap management. I do not know enough about it to make the call and I think the Giants have to blow up the whole D. Rebuild it soup to nuts.
That said, JPP maybe the best player on the D and one of the few to build around. To me it all comes down to cost. Whether it makes the most sense to franchise him or not related to the cap I am not sure.
I am sure though, that despite what disappointment there is about this season and JPP's failed expectations, that he is not a draft bust.
You're talking about potential from 3 years ago.
???
Franchise is for proven players, not ones you hope will pan out. and you only franchise if your team is devastated without him.
The problem with JPP is that the team is worse without him (because, honestly, who replaces him that is definitely in the fold?). But, the team isn't all that good with him. I'm the first to admit I'm not much of a talent evaluator, but when I key on JPP, I see a guy who gets shut down fairly easily.
It's a problem because we will be worse letting him go, but we won't get better keeping him, and status quo simply isn't acceptable.
You tag him, he has a bad year, he walks the following year. Not sure how you couldn't figure that one out.
Thats a lot of money. Money that can be used this year to fill other holes.
Just because the Giants let him go doesn't mean they are stuck with a hole there. Its extremely rare that a player is so good they are irreplaceable. And JPP certainly isn't that player. Like I said before, we see other teams let their star players go all the time. But they move on and find someone else. Carolina moved on from Julius Peppers just fine, off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others that have as well.
They were right though. He never regained his dominant form and we are better off with a better player in Beckham Jr. The same would happen with JPP. He'd leave and people would be upset in the short term - worrying about how the Giants will ever replace the huge hole he left behind.
Then they draft someone new who is better and we're all happy again.
That's not to make light of the fact that some of these guys just weren't very good to begin with, but I don't think good talent can win if everyone is playing well below their max.
JPP might be better with a different coach, but I don't think it stops at Fewell. If the staff returns and we get another DC, I think we see marginal improvement at best (especially if he's moved to RDE). Might also get an additional boost because that'll truly be his contract year, but you could also end up with him complaining about a hurting back and making 'business decisions'.
But seriously? you would spend 14 mil guaranteed on a player you're not sure is worth it? If you think he's worth it, it's a different discussion. But if you're not sure? seriously?
At this point, the Giants know what they have in JPP. If you think he's worth it, sign him long term. 14 mil is a starting point for guaranteed money. Franchising him means he gets that this year, and again next year when you sign him long term. IF you don't know what you have, let him walk now. it's too big a gamble.
Wouldn't be to difficult to find someone else who can improve on his 6 sacks a season while holding up against the run, and costing less. And maybe even bring an attitude improvement. He talks a lot of crap and doesn't back it up, and he seems immature. I'm just ready to move on.
He still shows flashes of brilliance yet dissapears for long stretches. You pay guys like Mario Williams, Mathis and Ware who continually put up 10+ sacks, regardless of the team.
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I think the team has ended up in this predicament because they either hold on to average players too long or overpay to keep them.
Keeping JPP would, in my view, continue that trend.
Please cite example of average players that we held for too long or overpayed. Average players don't have seasons like JPP had in 2011 for the record.
Diehl, Snee
Beatty for 100% sure.
Teams clearly key on JPP. That's not an excuse for his poor stats, he hasn't been great this year, but he's the guy teams focus on blocking.
All that I've noticed is that he's routinely controlled by the LT without help. Maybe I've missed something. THIS was the year for JPP to reach his potential. He's supposedly been healthy since the middle of last season.