NFT: Non lethal guns for law enforcement

With that is criminals have lethal guns, so u would be putting law enforcements safety at risk.

Of conventional guns (rubber bullets, bean bags etc) but they can kill as well if they hit just right. There's no such thing as non lethal. The preferred term is less lethal weapons.

In comment 12002368 cokeduplt said:

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With that is criminals have lethal guns, so u would be putting law enforcements safety at risk.

Not if they knocked the person out every time they hit a certain part of the body. In fact they may be safer as it wouldn't take a perfectly placed lethal shot like with a conventional gun.

In comment 12002370 GIANTSr01 said:

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Quote: I known next to nothing about ________

#shotsfired

In comment 12002374 Jon from PA said:

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Of conventional guns (rubber bullets, bean bags etc) but they can kill as well if they hit just right. There's no such thing as non lethal. The preferred term is less lethal weapons.

There's no tranquilizer guns for humans?

And most police forces have them. Trouble is every officer can't carry every weapon and in emergency situations it limits your options and the time you have to access non lethal alternatives.

Less than lethal

They usually use weight to determine dosage.

killed a celebrating Emerson college student after the Red Sox won the ALCS in 2004.

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Victoria Snelgrove (October 29, 1982 – October 21, 2004) was a junior majoring in journalism at Emerson College. On October 21, 2004, approximately 90 minutes after the Boston Red Sox defeated the New York Yankees in the 2004 American League Championship Series, Boston police officer Rochefort Milien shot Snelgrove with a crowd-control round and mortally wounded her. The incident occurred near Fenway Park when an FN 303 blunt trauma / pepper spray projectile hit her eye, causing her to bleed excessively. Ambulances were blocked by the excessive crowds, which still refused to clear the area, preventing prompt medical attention from arriving from the dense medical area only a half-mile away.[1] Snelgrove died at 12:50 p.m. EDT at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, about 12 hours after being shot. According to the autopsy, the pellet opened a three-quarter-inch hole in the bone behind the eye, broke into nine pieces, and damaged the right side of her brain.

to prevent a criminal from causing harm that works every time. There is always something that prevents a weapon or method from working properly. Even a gun doesn't always prevent someone from continuing to be a threat instantly.

And if anyone has ever fired a nonlethal (or less lethal) rounds before, they aren't the magic bullet (sorry for the pun) that you may think they are.

And seriously, a tranquilizer? I bet that would work well on someone hopped up on PCP.

Their primary service it to protect and serve the community. If someone poses a lethal threat the police's main objective it to ensure that threat is not carried out and then eliminated. Of course they should first look to a nonlethal solution when doing so but not at the expense of risk to themselves or others.

but who'd sign up to be a cop and not be able to defend themselves when being threatened with deadly force?

If guns magically disappeared then fine, but yeah this will never happen nor should it.

how about people raise their children properly? We could eliminate the need for a police force in this country, overnight!

the alternative would be just as effective, if not more, than a gun as it would disable the attacker instantly and for a long enough time for the police to disarm and handcuff him or her.

The police aren't charged with executing justice and ending lives. They are charged with protecting citizens and themselves.

In comment 12002388 RC02XX said:

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to prevent a criminal from causing harm that works every time. There is always something that prevents a weapon or method from working properly. Even a gun doesn't always prevent someone from continuing to be a threat instantly. And if anyone has ever fired a nonlethal (or less lethal) rounds before, they aren't the magic bullet (sorry for the pun) that you may think they are. And seriously, a tranquilizer? I bet that would work well on someone hopped up on PCP.

What he said

In comment 12002408 chris r said:

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the alternative would be just as effective, if not more, than a gun as it would disable the attacker instantly and for a long enough time for the police to disarm and handcuff him or her. The police aren't charged with executing justice and ending lives. They are charged with protecting citizens and themselves.

The problem is your "alternative" doesn't exist there is no magic instant knockout tool/weapon.

Are there to protect life and property.

Gene nails it. Simply following police instructions would prevent 99% of these incidents. Body cameras will be a mandate across the country very soon. That's personal opinion but it would really eliminate a lot of the questions. I'd hate to wear one but I know it's coming

if someone chooses to engage in violent crime and/or behavior they are placing themselves at risk from the attempts at stopping them. The majority of blame should be directed towards the criminal and his/her behavior.

we could have them all take Jedi training and they could then use The Force.

+2

I'd rather not.

In comment 12002452 dorgan said:

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we could have them all take Jedi training and they could then use The Force.

See. Wisdom finally. Now I'm going to use my transporter to get to work. Beam me up Scotty

In comment 12002408 chris r said:

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the alternative would be just as effective, if not more, than a gun as it would disable the attacker instantly and for a long enough time for the police to disarm and handcuff him or her. The police aren't charged with executing justice and ending lives. They are charged with protecting citizens and themselves.

Chris - A tranquilizer WOULDN'T disable the attacker instantly.

In comment 12002423 bxgiants4 said:

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Body cameras will be a mandate across the country very soon. That's personal opinion but it would really eliminate a lot of the questions. I'd hate to wear one but I know it's coming

I mentioned this in the Ferguson thread. No matter the cost it would be cheaper than the cost of what Ferguson is paying in O.T. for the officers right now.

also think if every cop had a camera, both cops and criminals would know that whatever they do will be recorded. Would weed out the bad cops and maybe a criminal would think twice about not obeying the police.

Look at the way the Taser and pepper spray are often used by LEOs these days. They're often abused, used as punishment for non-compliance or simply for torture, when they should only be used as a less lethal (not, non-lethal) alternative to the officer's firearm to protect their life or the life of others.

They should be available around Stardate 41163.4.

In comment 12002537 Gary from The East End said:

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Look at the way the Taser and pepper spray are often used by LEOs these days. They're often abused, used as punishment for non-compliance or simply for torture, when they should only be used as a less lethal (not, non-lethal) alternative to the officer's firearm to protect their life or the life of others.

This post should've started off with" I don't know what I'm talking about but I'll just throw some shit against the wall and see what sticks"

Yes the LEO'S go around torturing people these days! Please! That shit Pepper Spray doesn't work! I know cause I've used it in lieu of shooting someone with a knife! You want to make blanket fucking statements like that, go ahead, you expose yourself as an idiot!

But I also think having non-lethal weapons (or less lethal, whatever) would cause officers to use them more and that would cause equally annoying protests.

Someone needs to shoot you with a chill pill gun. Holy shit.

Dumbass statement overlooked Bc of his position at BBI

bro

In comment 12002588 Mike in Long Beach said:

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But I also think having non-lethal weapons (or less lethal, whatever) would cause officers to use them more and that would cause equally annoying protests.

Mike, I'm all for having nonlethal weapons. Police officers carry two types of them every day, a nightstick and pepper spray, the latter which works some of the time. Is there a problem with abuse, yes but to say its a tool of torture is rediculous! There are devices that shoot nets at emotionally disturbed people, that gives you an advantage to apprehend them among others. Should there be more of them yes absolutely! I will sahy this as a retired Police Officer who has worked in time square when it was the wild west, I took the preservation of life seriously! mine included in that list! I aminsulted when blanket statements are thrown around, that police officers torture people for the hell of it. Their as been PO's that have done that, but the bad apples are far and few between.

In comment 12002598 bxgiants4 said:

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Dumbass statement overlooked Bc of his position at BBI

Absolutely

In comment 12002537 Gary from The East End said:

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Look at the way the Taser and pepper spray are often used by LEOs these days. They're often abused, used as punishment for non-compliance or simply for torture, when they should only be used as a less lethal (not, non-lethal) alternative to the officer's firearm to protect their life or the life of others.

Often? Anything to support this?

By the thread starter. This isn't terrible, but when several people who actually have understanding of these issues state their piece, the thread starter still makes the same ignorant comment instead of actually acknowledging the difficulties associated with the topic. So if the thread starter wanted to learn something through discussion, he's failing. However, if he wants to just start an argument where both sides talk past each other with a few overly insulting comment thrown in like tortures being routinely perpetuated by law enforcement officers, then he's definitely succeeded. It being radar, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

lethal." there are several options available as has been outlined above. In a preplanned operation these less lethal options can be game planned into the operation under certain limited circumstances.

Deciding which less lethal option may work best in a given situation takes time and can change dramatically with changes in circumstances. Even the correct choice of less lethal options can lead to tragedy due to human error. There have been situations where 00 buck or slug rounds have been inadvertently loaded into less lethal shotguns. Then there was the well publicized case in oakland where the officer drew and deployed his handgun when he meant to use his taser. As RXO pointed out there are no surefire answers.

Know this though, under the stress of immediate threat to anyone's life the choice is simple. The quickest deployment option is going to be a firearm. And that is not foolproof either. There are many well documented cases of individuals taking fatal wounds but continuing the fight for 60-90 seconds. A lot of shit can and will happen in that time frame.

That Star Lord used in Guardians of the Galaxy.
Oh wait.

I got no idea what I'm talking about.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/opinion/torturing-children-at-school.html

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Federal investigators have opened an inquiry into the tragic case of a high school student in Bastrop County, Tex., who suffered severe brain damage and nearly died last fall after a deputy sheriff shocked him with a Taser, a high voltage electronic weapon. In North Carolina, civil rights lawyers have filed a complaint with the Justice Department, charging the Wake County school system with violating the constitutional rights of minority children by subjecting them to discriminatory arrest practices and brutality by police officers assigned to schools. In one nightmarish case described in the complaint, a disabled 15-year-old was shocked with a Taser three times during an interrogation at school, resulting in punctured lungs. And in New York, civil rights lawyers have sued the city of Syracuse on behalf of two students. One was shocked three times, not for threatening behavior but for lying on the floor and crying, they say, and another was shocked while trying to break up a fight.

In comment 12002376 chris r said:

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In comment 12002368 cokeduplt said: Quote: With that is criminals have lethal guns, so u would be putting law enforcements safety at risk. Not if they knocked the person out every time they hit a certain part of the body. In fact they may be safer as it wouldn't take a perfectly placed lethal shot like with a conventional gun.

This might work in a video game, but not real life.

Just don't fuck with the cops. Problem solved.

In comment 12002479 LauderdaleMatty said:

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In comment 12002452 dorgan said: Quote: we could have them all take Jedi training and they could then use The Force. See. Wisdom finally. Now I'm going to use my transporter to get to work. Beam me up Scotty

Phasers on stun!!!!

In comment 12002809 Gary from The East End said:

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I got no idea what I'm talking about. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/opinion/torturing-children-at-school.html Quote: Federal investigators have opened an inquiry into the tragic case of a high school student in Bastrop County, Tex., who suffered severe brain damage and nearly died last fall after a deputy sheriff shocked him with a Taser, a high voltage electronic weapon. In North Carolina, civil rights lawyers have filed a complaint with the Justice Department, charging the Wake County school system with violating the constitutional rights of minority children by subjecting them to discriminatory arrest practices and brutality by police officers assigned to schools. In one nightmarish case described in the complaint, a disabled 15-year-old was shocked with a Taser three times during an interrogation at school, resulting in punctured lungs. And in New York, civil rights lawyers have sued the city of Syracuse on behalf of two students. One was shocked three times, not for threatening behavior but for lying on the floor and crying, they say, and another was shocked while trying to break up a fight. First case where's the torture????? Yes some people die even from "non lethal" weapons. Second case this is a school and school officials, no police officers involved. I can say all doctors who perform electro shock therapy are torturers. Keep hunting the internet to support your statement.

I made a statement that painted Police Officers with same brush.

Wilson reportedly was issued but did not wear a Tazer because it was too "bulky" or something to that effect.

The department possesses weapons which may serve as an alternative to deadly force, yet the officers have the discretion re: whether they wear it or not. If true, I would be shocked if the US Attorney's patterns and practice investigation does not flag this as a major organizational defect.

In comment 12002370 GIANTSr01 said:

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Quote: I known next to nothing about ________

and follow with, "But that's not going to stop me from pontificating about it."

I've wondered about this as well. I just imagine that policemen could very well become even more Taser-happy (or replace Taser with your non-lethal tool of choice).

It's one of those questions I didn't see too many people ask too often in regards to the Oscar Grant shooting. The cop says he thought he was firing his Taser. Well, why did a guy handcuffed and lying face-down on the ground warrant even a Tasering?

In comment 12002674 RC02XX said:

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By the thread starter. This isn't terrible, but when several people who actually have understanding of these issues state their piece, the thread starter still makes the same ignorant comment instead of actually acknowledging the difficulties associated with the topic. So if the thread starter wanted to learn something through discussion, he's failing. However, if he wants to just start an argument where both sides talk past each other with a few overly insulting comment thrown in like tortures being routinely perpetuated by law enforcement officers, then he's definitely succeeded. It being radar, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

What are you going on about again? No one brought evidence or documentation to the table. My post was a simple question.

In comment 12002883 buford said:

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In comment 12002376 chris r said: Quote: In comment 12002368 cokeduplt said: Quote: With that is criminals have lethal guns, so u would be putting law enforcements safety at risk. Not if they knocked the person out every time they hit a certain part of the body. In fact they may be safer as it wouldn't take a perfectly placed lethal shot like with a conventional gun. This might work in a video game, but not real life. Just don't fuck with the cops. Problem solved.

You mean like that insane man in NM who slowly walked towards cops with a knife? Yeah he deserved to die for "fucking with the cops".

In comment 12002883 buford said:

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This might work in a video game, but not real life. Just don't fuck with the cops. Problem solved.

It really is the best advice. Treat a cop exactly as you would a mugger, albeit an even more dangerous one, and you'll likely emerge from the incident unharmed.

In comment 12003040 chris r said:

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In comment 12002883 buford said: Quote: In comment 12002376 chris r said: Quote: In comment 12002368 cokeduplt said: Quote: With that is criminals have lethal guns, so u would be putting law enforcements safety at risk. Not if they knocked the person out every time they hit a certain part of the body. In fact they may be safer as it wouldn't take a perfectly placed lethal shot like with a conventional gun. This might work in a video game, but not real life. Just don't fuck with the cops. Problem solved. You mean like that insane man in NM who slowly walked towards cops with a knife? Yeah he deserved to die for "fucking with the cops".

Well radar, why don't you try it and see what happens.

Or better yet, have a crazy guy walk towards you with a knife and see what you do. After you shit your pants of course.

Question asked. Poster explained to why it doesn't work. Poster assumes any response against his brilliant opinion is bullshit.

Administrator chimes in and charges all police do is use non lethal weapons for torture.

Only wednesday and I learned a lot this week.

In comment 12003065 ctc in ftmyers said:

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Question asked. Poster explained to why it doesn't work. Poster assumes any response against his brilliant opinion is bullshit. Administrator chimes in and charges all police do is use non lethal weapons for torture. Only wednesday and I learned a lot this week.

Bingo on radar's shitty reading comprehension. I swear, he really only ever posts to read his own brilliance no matter what topic, and by brilliance I mean the idiotic contrarian bullshit time and time again.

Radar...read what others have already posted regarding how difficult it is to use nonleathal (less lethal) means to stop a threat before you keep beating your idiotic drum. Some people actually have some experience in these areas that you may learn something from.

Some cops are very good at preventing a situation from getting out of control and some cops are not good at it. Some cops even cause situations to escalate.

Without objective evidence many times we can't be certain if a specific incident of police use of force is justified or not.

Then we have bad policies such as civil forfeiture and no-knock warrants that can easily be abused which cause tremendous amounts of distrust and animosity. Of course people that can't afford lawyers are the most likely be victims of these bad policies.

Maybe there are solutions that involve less deadly forms of force for the police to use but in the meantime body cameras are the best solution. Violence by both cop and non cop go way down when cops are wearing body cameras. Complaints of excessive use of force by cops also go way down when cops wear body cameras.

The day when all cops wear body cameras is coming but in the meantime people should get use to pulling out their cell phone cameras to protect themselves and others.

People have already stated that there is no truly effective way to use nonlethal or even less lethal means since everyone of those weapons have their own drawbacks that may put the police officer and those around them in danger from the assailants. To which you kept providing counterpoints based on nothing more than your disagreement to actual knowledge and experience. So either you need to read some of those posts more carefully and learn something you don't know anything about (by your own admission) rather than keep throwing in ignorant counterpoints. Or admit that you don't care about learning anything but rather started this thread to just spout your biased and ignorant thoughts on police procedures regarding the use of deadly weapon.

A month or so ago I started a thread how the general public is having a problem with them. People are requesting entire police department video libraries and and posting them to facebook. Unlike the show cops, no permission is needed to show the images and names of private citizens. The ACLU really doesn't have an answer. They suggest a waiver. But that would extend to all public records.

Google it. Interesting how it's developing.

As it appears to be turning out, body cams seems to be a good tool for the police.

Helping more than hurting. We shall see.

In comment 12003145 ctc in ftmyers said:

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A month or so ago I started a thread how the general public is having a problem with them. People are requesting entire police department video libraries and and posting them to facebook. Unlike the show cops, no permission is needed to show the images and names of private citizens. The ACLU really doesn't have an answer. They suggest a waiver. But that would extend to all public records. Google it. Interesting how it's developing. If I was still on the job, I'd wear a camera in a heartbeat! It's cuts down on all the he said she said BS. Look at how officers who have the cameras in their RMP have used the videos to show the justifiable stops of vehicles along with the actions of the driver after their stops. These videos tell the whole story, their not turned on and off at will or edited. As it appears to be turning out, body cams seems to be a good tool for the police. Helping more than hurting. We shall see.

Fuck the liberal bullshit. We need to go back to eye for an eye. These scumbags don't deserve rights and you can thank them for trigger happy cops. I don't blame them one bit with the psychos running around. For every fucked up cop story you hear there are at least five that warrant lethal force that dont get headlines.

There is not 1 sentence in the previous post that makes any sense.

what doesn't make sense?

For police, they already have them in their cars. As far as the ACLU, screw them.

As far as non-lethal weapons, they already have them -they're called Tasers.

As far as guns I want them to have the biggest, baddest guns they can get. Mike Brown was sot with a Sig Sauer .40 caliber hand-gun (a very serious weapon). He took several rounds, till one to the head stopped him.

I grew up with guns in the home (and the military) aways had at least one, till my wife insisted they I get rid of my shot gun. That's why if I call the cops because somebody is hurting my family ….

I don't want a bleeding heart who will hesitate drawing his weapon and USING it.

a magical weapon that instantly disables someone no matter where it strikes the person and at long distances and able to be used multiple times in a single incident.

we're talking about the stun setting on Star Trek phasers. Only problem is, they don't exist and we still have to live in a real world.

to life.

ways to change public policy in the direction of having less police presence in the life of the average citizen. We are over policed. That is not necessarily the fault of the police themselves.

needs to be carefully restrained.

The problem with the don't screw with the police approach is that police are humans and humans aren't perfect. Humans don't have perfect memories especially in high stress situations. We also have biases.

Studies show white people sometimes believe black people have superhuman strength and ability to withstand pain.

When Darren Wilson grappled with Mike Brown he said he felt like a 5 year old hanging on to Hulk Hogan. Wilson also said Brown had the face of a demon and he said Brown was bulking himself up to run through the shots.

It should be noted that Mike Brown is 6'4" and Darren Wilson is 6'4". Brown is heavier than Wilson but he is also fat. Wilson was a fit 210 lbs. Wilson also had years of training and experience in physically dealing with others and Wilson was armed, yet Wilson was the one claiming that he was afraid.

It should also be noted the final shot, the one that killed Mike Brown, was to the crown of the head. All the coroners agree Mike Brown was falling to the ground when he was shot in the top of the head. The people that believe Brown was only stopped by the head shot do not have the facts correct. Mike Brown was not like the Zombies in Night Of The Living Dead.
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and I have to say, it's the biggest pile of crap that I have ever read.

And the rest of the stuff you wrote, especially about the last shot is not correct. All the coroners said that the shot was to the top of the head, but they can not say if Brown was falling or just had his head down to charge Wilson. The last shot to the head was the one that killed him.

So you believe Brown was still charging Wilson at full speed even after he was shot 5 or 6 times.

In comment 12002396 GeneInCal said:

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how about people raise their children properly? We could eliminate the need for a police force in this country, overnight!

Gene if it were this simple. Not every criminal comes down to bad parenting. I bet a good portion are actually mentally ill. Criminal that happen to be mentally ill aren't criminals more than likely because they didn't get enough spankings, discipline etc.

In comment 12005649 Big Blue Fan 74 said:

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So you believe Brown was still charging Wilson at full speed even after he was shot 5 or 6 times.

It doesn't matter what you or I believe. The evidence shows that he was shot in the top of the head. Witnesses say he had his head down charging at Wilson. To say he was down at the point of the final shot is speculation, not absolute truth and it doesn't match the evidence.

People that can't afford lawyers are disproportionately arrested for marijauna and other drug charges. They disproportionately are victims of no-knock warrants and civil forfeiture.

You can't blame these problems on bad parenting and ignore bad policy.

Witness #10 was the person that most agreed with Wilson's version of the story. Witness #10 said we was 100 yards when interviewed but later changed his story to only being 50-75 yards away. Under cross examination witness #10 would not have held that much credibility.

That said, we have 2 possibilities. Either Wilson continued to fire on Brown when we was falling to the ground or Brown was charging Wilson after being shot 5 or 6 times. Which possibility do you believe?

thinks all law enforcement are expert snipers who never miss. In no way would any police chief worth a damn ever sign up to put his officers on the street without the ability to protect them and others from deadly force. It just does t make sense no matter how anti gun one may be.

Have fun putting together a police force in Chicago with tasers, tranquilizers, and blow darts.

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That said, we have 2 possibilities. Either Wilson continued to fire on Brown when we was falling to the ground or Brown was charging Wilson after being shot 5 or 6 times. Which possibility do you believe?

I believe the coroner who said that earlier wounds would not have been disabling in combination, until the final wound to the top of the head. The autopsy confirms Wilson's testimony. Plus you don't know how long it was between the shots, they were almost instantaneous.

The grand jury heard all of this and made their decision. You seem to think that you know something that they don't.


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someone's been watching Batman too much.

regular guns from LEOs but I found this new product from TASER pretty cool. It's a shotgun shell that houses a TASER projectile that can deliver a charge into a suspect up to a 100 ft away. You can fire it from standard 12 gauge shotguns and delivers a 20 second charge so that the officer can close the distance on the suspect. Practicality and how well it'll be employed in real world scenarios aside, the technology and innovation behind it is still pretty cool.
TASER shotgun shell - ( New Window )

I can see that as problematic