NFT: Non lethal guns for law enforcement

With that is criminals have lethal guns, so u would be putting law enforcements safety at risk.

Of conventional guns (rubber bullets, bean bags etc) but they can kill as well if they hit just right. There's no such thing as non lethal. The preferred term is less lethal weapons.

In comment 12002368 cokeduplt said:

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With that is criminals have lethal guns, so u would be putting law enforcements safety at risk.

Not if they knocked the person out every time they hit a certain part of the body. In fact they may be safer as it wouldn't take a perfectly placed lethal shot like with a conventional gun.

In comment 12002370 GIANTSr01 said:

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Quote: I known next to nothing about ________

#shotsfired

In comment 12002374 Jon from PA said:

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Of conventional guns (rubber bullets, bean bags etc) but they can kill as well if they hit just right. There's no such thing as non lethal. The preferred term is less lethal weapons.

There's no tranquilizer guns for humans?

And most police forces have them. Trouble is every officer can't carry every weapon and in emergency situations it limits your options and the time you have to access non lethal alternatives.

Less than lethal

They usually use weight to determine dosage.

killed a celebrating Emerson college student after the Red Sox won the ALCS in 2004.

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Victoria Snelgrove (October 29, 1982 – October 21, 2004) was a junior majoring in journalism at Emerson College. On October 21, 2004, approximately 90 minutes after the Boston Red Sox defeated the New York Yankees in the 2004 American League Championship Series, Boston police officer Rochefort Milien shot Snelgrove with a crowd-control round and mortally wounded her. The incident occurred near Fenway Park when an FN 303 blunt trauma / pepper spray projectile hit her eye, causing her to bleed excessively. Ambulances were blocked by the excessive crowds, which still refused to clear the area, preventing prompt medical attention from arriving from the dense medical area only a half-mile away.[1] Snelgrove died at 12:50 p.m. EDT at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, about 12 hours after being shot. According to the autopsy, the pellet opened a three-quarter-inch hole in the bone behind the eye, broke into nine pieces, and damaged the right side of her brain.

to prevent a criminal from causing harm that works every time. There is always something that prevents a weapon or method from working properly. Even a gun doesn't always prevent someone from continuing to be a threat instantly.

And if anyone has ever fired a nonlethal (or less lethal) rounds before, they aren't the magic bullet (sorry for the pun) that you may think they are.

And seriously, a tranquilizer? I bet that would work well on someone hopped up on PCP.

Their primary service it to protect and serve the community. If someone poses a lethal threat the police's main objective it to ensure that threat is not carried out and then eliminated. Of course they should first look to a nonlethal solution when doing so but not at the expense of risk to themselves or others.

but who'd sign up to be a cop and not be able to defend themselves when being threatened with deadly force?

If guns magically disappeared then fine, but yeah this will never happen nor should it.

how about people raise their children properly? We could eliminate the need for a police force in this country, overnight!

the alternative would be just as effective, if not more, than a gun as it would disable the attacker instantly and for a long enough time for the police to disarm and handcuff him or her.

The police aren't charged with executing justice and ending lives. They are charged with protecting citizens and themselves.

In comment 12002388 RC02XX said:

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to prevent a criminal from causing harm that works every time. There is always something that prevents a weapon or method from working properly. Even a gun doesn't always prevent someone from continuing to be a threat instantly. And if anyone has ever fired a nonlethal (or less lethal) rounds before, they aren't the magic bullet (sorry for the pun) that you may think they are. And seriously, a tranquilizer? I bet that would work well on someone hopped up on PCP.

What he said

In comment 12002408 chris r said:

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the alternative would be just as effective, if not more, than a gun as it would disable the attacker instantly and for a long enough time for the police to disarm and handcuff him or her. The police aren't charged with executing justice and ending lives. They are charged with protecting citizens and themselves.

The problem is your "alternative" doesn't exist there is no magic instant knockout tool/weapon.

Are there to protect life and property.

Gene nails it. Simply following police instructions would prevent 99% of these incidents. Body cameras will be a mandate across the country very soon. That's personal opinion but it would really eliminate a lot of the questions. I'd hate to wear one but I know it's coming

if someone chooses to engage in violent crime and/or behavior they are placing themselves at risk from the attempts at stopping them. The majority of blame should be directed towards the criminal and his/her behavior.

we could have them all take Jedi training and they could then use The Force.

+2

I'd rather not.

In comment 12002452 dorgan said:

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we could have them all take Jedi training and they could then use The Force.

See. Wisdom finally. Now I'm going to use my transporter to get to work. Beam me up Scotty

In comment 12002408 chris r said:

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the alternative would be just as effective, if not more, than a gun as it would disable the attacker instantly and for a long enough time for the police to disarm and handcuff him or her. The police aren't charged with executing justice and ending lives. They are charged with protecting citizens and themselves.

Chris - A tranquilizer WOULDN'T disable the attacker instantly.

In comment 12002423 bxgiants4 said:

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Body cameras will be a mandate across the country very soon. That's personal opinion but it would really eliminate a lot of the questions. I'd hate to wear one but I know it's coming

I mentioned this in the Ferguson thread. No matter the cost it would be cheaper than the cost of what Ferguson is paying in O.T. for the officers right now.

also think if every cop had a camera, both cops and criminals would know that whatever they do will be recorded. Would weed out the bad cops and maybe a criminal would think twice about not obeying the police.

Look at the way the Taser and pepper spray are often used by LEOs these days. They're often abused, used as punishment for non-compliance or simply for torture, when they should only be used as a less lethal (not, non-lethal) alternative to the officer's firearm to protect their life or the life of others.

They should be available around Stardate 41163.4.

In comment 12002537 Gary from The East End said:

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Look at the way the Taser and pepper spray are often used by LEOs these days. They're often abused, used as punishment for non-compliance or simply for torture, when they should only be used as a less lethal (not, non-lethal) alternative to the officer's firearm to protect their life or the life of others.

This post should've started off with" I don't know what I'm talking about but I'll just throw some shit against the wall and see what sticks"

Yes the LEO'S go around torturing people these days! Please! That shit Pepper Spray doesn't work! I know cause I've used it in lieu of shooting someone with a knife! You want to make blanket fucking statements like that, go ahead, you expose yourself as an idiot!

But I also think having non-lethal weapons (or less lethal, whatever) would cause officers to use them more and that would cause equally annoying protests.

Someone needs to shoot you with a chill pill gun. Holy shit.

Dumbass statement overlooked Bc of his position at BBI

bro

In comment 12002588 Mike in Long Beach said:

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But I also think having non-lethal weapons (or less lethal, whatever) would cause officers to use them more and that would cause equally annoying protests.

Mike, I'm all for having nonlethal weapons. Police officers carry two types of them every day, a nightstick and pepper spray, the latter which works some of the time. Is there a problem with abuse, yes but to say its a tool of torture is rediculous! There are devices that shoot nets at emotionally disturbed people, that gives you an advantage to apprehend them among others. Should there be more of them yes absolutely! I will sahy this as a retired Police Officer who has worked in time square when it was the wild west, I took the preservation of life seriously! mine included in that list! I aminsulted when blanket statements are thrown around, that police officers torture people for the hell of it. Their as been PO's that have done that, but the bad apples are far and few between.

In comment 12002598 bxgiants4 said:

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Dumbass statement overlooked Bc of his position at BBI

Absolutely

In comment 12002537 Gary from The East End said:

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Look at the way the Taser and pepper spray are often used by LEOs these days. They're often abused, used as punishment for non-compliance or simply for torture, when they should only be used as a less lethal (not, non-lethal) alternative to the officer's firearm to protect their life or the life of others.

Often? Anything to support this?

By the thread starter. This isn't terrible, but when several people who actually have understanding of these issues state their piece, the thread starter still makes the same ignorant comment instead of actually acknowledging the difficulties associated with the topic. So if the thread starter wanted to learn something through discussion, he's failing. However, if he wants to just start an argument where both sides talk past each other with a few overly insulting comment thrown in like tortures being routinely perpetuated by law enforcement officers, then he's definitely succeeded. It being radar, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

lethal." there are several options available as has been outlined above. In a preplanned operation these less lethal options can be game planned into the operation under certain limited circumstances.

Deciding which less lethal option may work best in a given situation takes time and can change dramatically with changes in circumstances. Even the correct choice of less lethal options can lead to tragedy due to human error. There have been situations where 00 buck or slug rounds have been inadvertently loaded into less lethal shotguns. Then there was the well publicized case in oakland where the officer drew and deployed his handgun when he meant to use his taser. As RXO pointed out there are no surefire answers.

Know this though, under the stress of immediate threat to anyone's life the choice is simple. The quickest deployment option is going to be a firearm. And that is not foolproof either. There are many well documented cases of individuals taking fatal wounds but continuing the fight for 60-90 seconds. A lot of shit can and will happen in that time frame.

That Star Lord used in Guardians of the Galaxy.
Oh wait.

I got no idea what I'm talking about.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/opinion/torturing-children-at-school.html

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Federal investigators have opened an inquiry into the tragic case of a high school student in Bastrop County, Tex., who suffered severe brain damage and nearly died last fall after a deputy sheriff shocked him with a Taser, a high voltage electronic weapon. In North Carolina, civil rights lawyers have filed a complaint with the Justice Department, charging the Wake County school system with violating the constitutional rights of minority children by subjecting them to discriminatory arrest practices and brutality by police officers assigned to schools. In one nightmarish case described in the complaint, a disabled 15-year-old was shocked with a Taser three times during an interrogation at school, resulting in punctured lungs. And in New York, civil rights lawyers have sued the city of Syracuse on behalf of two students. One was shocked three times, not for threatening behavior but for lying on the floor and crying, they say, and another was shocked while trying to break up a fight.

In comment 12002376 chris r said:

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In comment 12002368 cokeduplt said: Quote: With that is criminals have lethal guns, so u would be putting law enforcements safety at risk. Not if they knocked the person out every time they hit a certain part of the body. In fact they may be safer as it wouldn't take a perfectly placed lethal shot like with a conventional gun.

This might work in a video game, but not real life.

Just don't fuck with the cops. Problem solved.

In comment 12002479 LauderdaleMatty said:

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In comment 12002452 dorgan said: Quote: we could have them all take Jedi training and they could then use The Force. See. Wisdom finally. Now I'm going to use my transporter to get to work. Beam me up Scotty

Phasers on stun!!!!

In comment 12002809 Gary from The East End said:

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I got no idea what I'm talking about. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/12/opinion/torturing-children-at-school.html Quote: Federal investigators have opened an inquiry into the tragic case of a high school student in Bastrop County, Tex., who suffered severe brain damage and nearly died last fall after a deputy sheriff shocked him with a Taser, a high voltage electronic weapon. In North Carolina, civil rights lawyers have filed a complaint with the Justice Department, charging the Wake County school system with violating the constitutional rights of minority children by subjecting them to discriminatory arrest practices and brutality by police officers assigned to schools. In one nightmarish case described in the complaint, a disabled 15-year-old was shocked with a Taser three times during an interrogation at school, resulting in punctured lungs. And in New York, civil rights lawyers have sued the city of Syracuse on behalf of two students. One was shocked three times, not for threatening behavior but for lying on the floor and crying, they say, and another was shocked while trying to break up a fight. First case where's the torture????? Yes some people die even from "non lethal" weapons. Second case this is a school and school officials, no police officers involved. I can say all doctors who perform electro shock therapy are torturers. Keep hunting the internet to support your statement.

I made a statement that painted Police Officers with same brush.

Wilson reportedly was issued but did not wear a Tazer because it was too "bulky" or something to that effect.

The department possesses weapons which may serve as an alternative to deadly force, yet the officers have the discretion re: whether they wear it or not. If true, I would be shocked if the US Attorney's patterns and practice investigation does not flag this as a major organizational defect.

In comment 12002370 GIANTSr01 said:

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Quote: I known next to nothing about ________

and follow with, "But that's not going to stop me from pontificating about it."

I've wondered about this as well. I just imagine that policemen could very well become even more Taser-happy (or replace Taser with your non-lethal tool of choice).

It's one of those questions I didn't see too many people ask too often in regards to the Oscar Grant shooting. The cop says he thought he was firing his Taser. Well, why did a guy handcuffed and lying face-down on the ground warrant even a Tasering?

In comment 12002674 RC02XX said:

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By the thread starter. This isn't terrible, but when several people who actually have understanding of these issues state their piece, the thread starter still makes the same ignorant comment instead of actually acknowledging the difficulties associated with the topic. So if the thread starter wanted to learn something through discussion, he's failing. However, if he wants to just start an argument where both sides talk past each other with a few overly insulting comment thrown in like tortures being routinely perpetuated by law enforcement officers, then he's definitely succeeded. It being radar, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

What are you going on about again? No one brought evidence or documentation to the table. My post was a simple question.

In comment 12002883 buford said:

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In comment 12002376 chris r said: Quote: In comment 12002368 cokeduplt said: Quote: With that is criminals have lethal guns, so u would be putting law enforcements safety at risk. Not if they knocked the person out every time they hit a certain part of the body. In fact they may be safer as it wouldn't take a perfectly placed lethal shot like with a conventional gun. This might work in a video game, but not real life. Just don't fuck with the cops. Problem solved.

You mean like that insane man in NM who slowly walked towards cops with a knife? Yeah he deserved to die for "fucking with the cops".

In comment 12002883 buford said:

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This might work in a video game, but not real life. Just don't fuck with the cops. Problem solved.

It really is the best advice. Treat a cop exactly as you would a mugger, albeit an even more dangerous one, and you'll likely emerge from the incident unharmed.