LBs drafted since 1986 suggests a terrible weakness

and you hear the scout basically say that a player is too small to fit into our "system". One, what is our system? Two, I could throw a dart at a board and have better results than the Giants have had. Three, how can they completely overlook a player like Borland because he doesn't fit their size requirement? Size should not be the deciding factor. That alone should not eliminate players from the discussion. I feel they make the whole scouting process more difficult than it has to be. Can the guy play? Does him game translate to the NFL? Don't tell me he can play but he is on the smaller side so we don't think he will hold up. That is bullshit.

To draft LBs low and complement them with a strong FA signing(s). This has been true pretty much throughout TCs tenure here and has provided LBer corps that helped win 2 SB. However, the the current top FA LB is on IR.

into a "system" really makes no sense when you're changing defensive coordinators every few years.

The Giants scouts have preferred types of players. I recall either Reese or Ross saying that they like tall LBs. I think the issue with LB is that they have never felt it was a position they needed to spend premium money/picks on. You could say they were right in 2007 and 2011 (though they paid good money for Pierce).

The NFL is getting more and more athletic. Even big RBs can get the edges, o-lineman are succeeding in open space, etc. You need linebackers who can match that athleticism; players that can get to the ball, and fill running lanes. The Giants simply don't have that. And its painfully apparent in games like both Cowboys losses and the fact that Seattle went through that defense like a hot knife through butter.

Long story short: The Giants need to sort out the LB position this offseason, either with money or draft picks.

I've been beating that drum for years. The #1 attribute they should start with, is can the guy play football!!!
You would think with the lack of success they've had for so many years, they would've figured this out. This is just part of the reason they are missing out on some talent. They are far too much into measureables.

Look back at where the Giants picked and list the LB's they keep passing on.

This continued bitching about this is a joke. Who are they passing on at the time they pick. There is not much

2008 - K. Phillips - LB taken in 2nd rd after him C. Lofton, J. Dizon

After T. Thomas - T. Gooden, D. Connor, S. Crable, B. Smith, B. Davis, P. Wheeler

After Manningham - B. Bell, X. Abidi into 4th

2009 - Drafted Nicks - 2 LB picked after him were Larainaitis, R. Maulauga. Picked Sintim - LB after him D. Veikune, After Beatty C. Brown, J. Williams

LB's after Barden - T. McKenzie, K. Maivai, V. Butler in 4th rd


2010 - JPP - LB after him S. Weatherspoon, K. Misi, S. Kindle

After LinJo - D. Washington, J. Cunningham, S. Lee, B. Spikes, P. Angerer

C. Jones - D. Butler & N. Bowman - into 4th rd


2011 - Prince - A. Ayers, B. Carter,
Austin - J. Mouton, N. Irving, K. Sheppard, J. houston. M. Wilson
Jernigan - M. Foster,A. Dent into 4th rd


2012 - After Wilson - C. Upshaw, M. Kendricks, B. Wagner, L. David
After Randle - D. Davis, S. Spence
After Holsey - N. Bradham, K. Wilbur - 4th rd


2013 - Pugh, Hankins. Moore - only LB taken after Moore in 3rd was Zavier Gooden.

There are so few misses there regarding missing on LB's

who should they have passed on and selected. Yes, everyone passed on Bowman

There are no LT's in college - there are no Banks in college - those guys were picked 2 & 3

Like the guy putting the draft board together.

Or the guy making the final choice of players.

It is possible that the scouts are making the evaluations correctly but somebody is screwing up the process later on.

I note that they were generally doing pretty OK in the draft, linebackers being notably devalued, until Reese hired Ross, who according to "Finding GIANTS" is responsible for putting together the draft board that ranks the players by value.

Or is it that the guy who leads assembling the consensus for the actual pick is not doing a good job of it?

I say this because I suspect the problem runs deeper than just the scouts.

About half of those picks were starters for at least part of their time with the Giants. Admittedly, there were no stars in the bunch.

What I don't like is the pattern wherein for many years, the Giants only drafted a LB every other year.

why not go back to 1925?

Draft,free agency,or trade.Why does everyone just seem to look at the draft.

I've suggested those responsible for identifying LB talent be drawn and quartered going on five years now. When we were courteously granted question submissions to the Giants scouts I made my single query on this subject. It garnered no response. Who could blame them since noone is going to put their own head in the noose.

Phillip Dillard in Round 4 was such an egregious selection in 2010 even BBI draft laymen were stupefied by the pick. This guy wasn't an unknown from a small school he was just a JAG from Nebraska that wasn't any good.

If he did not draft Dillard and drafted 1 of these guys what was the difference

AJ Edds - 4 career tackles
Keenan Clayton - 18 career tackles
Eric Norwood - 6 career tackles
Roderick Muckelroy - 0 career tackles
Steven Sylvester - 10 career tackles 5th rd
Nate Triplett - 4 career tackles 5th
Arthur Moats - 75 career tackles - 6th
Travis Goethel - 5 career tackles

There are some winners in the 7th as well

In comment 12002940 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

and you hear the scout basically say that a player is too small to fit into our "system". One, what is our system? Two, I could throw a dart at a board and have better results than the Giants have had. Three, how can they completely overlook a player like Borland because he doesn't fit their size requirement? Size should not be the deciding factor. That alone should not eliminate players from the discussion. I feel they make the whole scouting process more difficult than it has to be. Can the guy play? Does him game translate to the NFL? Don't tell me he can play but he is on the smaller side so we don't think he will hold up. That is bullshit.

Robbie, I agree with you 100%. Been saying for a while that the Giants are putting too much weight on measurables and clearly have no fucking clue how to spot a "football player". We have had so many guys come through here who..
A. fit the measurable criteria (Greg Brady's suit)
B. went to a school that we prefer to draft from
or
C. was recommended by a college coach we trust.

Meanwhile, there is also a huge list of players who excelled AND were not your prototype player for their respective positions.

It is obvious from what I SEE on the field that we do not have any clue as to what a "football player" is. A guy who will compete until the clock hits zero AND knows the game without having to be told what to do each second by a coach.

We seemed to have found that in OBJ, but I would be willing to bet that he was drafted based upon on his measurables FIRST and we simply got lucky that this kid also has what it takes INSIDE.

Oh, and it would not kill us to draft someone that has some leadership skills too. We have two guys on defense who have that (Rolle and Beason) and we did not draft either of them.

picks identified, yet somehow teams have All Pro and Pro Bowl LBs--
they're certainly not all coming in the first round.

I'm with robbie, R&R devalue the position (Reese's snarky comment about what LBs do you recall from the Giants' 08 or '12 SB team), and what you get is a defense that is flawed.

How many years has it been now that the Giants have not been able to cover crossing routes and slants by TEs, backs, and slots?? Many years, many tears, including last Sunday night--because we don't have LBs that can play, that are athletic, who can run. Hell, how many times did the team waive or cut too old, too slow, and too small Chase Blackburn?--and he WAS physically limited, but he could play. Imagine if they found talent at the position.

By the way, I posted a very similar thread several years ago; I think at the time Wilkinson was the last LB drafted...the Giants haven't gotten any better.

is a sad freakin display. Don't even want to look at it.

A few years back I looked at the premium draft picks (rounds 1-3) of our last 2 GMs. What stood out was how statically under represented the offensive line was and how over represented the WRs were.

Some people argue getting offensive line players in free agency is just as good as getting them in the draft but that argument does not hold true in my opinion. Teams will do everything in their power to keep a great player at a fair price. If a player makes it to free agency, that usually means the team that knows the player best usually thinks he is a bad value. It doesn't take too many of the bad value players to mess up the cap.

Drafted Short and Dhani Jones. Two players that started both for the Giants and for other teams in the league as well..

That's all I got. Sorry.

In comment 12003003 stretch234 said:

Quote:

Look back at where the Giants picked and list the LB's they keep passing on. This continued bitching about this is a joke. Who are they passing on at the time they pick. There is not much 2008 - K. Phillips - LB taken in 2nd rd after him C. Lofton, J. Dizon After T. Thomas - T. Gooden, D. Connor, S. Crable, B. Smith, B. Davis, P. Wheeler After Manningham - B. Bell, X. Abidi into 4th 2009 - Drafted Nicks - 2 LB picked after him were Larainaitis, R. Maulauga. Picked Sintim - LB after him D. Veikune, After Beatty C. Brown, J. Williams LB's after Barden - T. McKenzie, K. Maivai, V. Butler in 4th rd 2010 - JPP - LB after him S. Weatherspoon, K. Misi, S. Kindle After LinJo - D. Washington, J. Cunningham, S. Lee, B. Spikes, P. Angerer C. Jones - D. Butler & N. Bowman - into 4th rd 2011 - Prince - A. Ayers, B. Carter, Austin - J. Mouton, N. Irving, K. Sheppard, J. houston. M. Wilson Jernigan - M. Foster,A. Dent into 4th rd 2012 - After Wilson - C. Upshaw, M. Kendricks, B. Wagner, L. David After Randle - D. Davis, S. Spence After Holsey - N. Bradham, K. Wilbur - 4th rd 2013 - Pugh, Hankins. Moore - only LB taken after Moore in 3rd was Zavier Gooden. There are so few misses there regarding missing on LB's who should they have passed on and selected. Yes, everyone passed on Bowman There are no LT's in college - there are no Banks in college - those guys were picked 2 & 3

Interesting breakdown. Thanks stretch

If you stated what round they were drafted....

Of those guys, Sintim was one of the highest drafted, and if ever it was a wasted/busted pick in the second round, this was it...forcing a square peg in a round hole....

But the thing is, these guys were drafted....they played four years of college ball....they have to have shown something....they come to the Giants....Ok, they may not be fast(you are what you are).....they may be poor tacklers, and why?.....because one thing I have seen is, they have not been coached up....I don't care if you are slow, I don't care if you miss an occasional tackle....I do care if you do not know your assignment, and you are not in a position to make a play......being a better tackler, can be coached....but what I see from just about every drafted linebacker is this....they don't attack.....they stand their ground and wait for the runner/receiver to come to them....is it any wonder that there are yards given up after the tackle? Is it any wonder, that rarely does a runner get tackled for negative yards....Why is it when our linebackers blitz, they take on the defender head on, and get stuffed, instead of trying to make some kind of move or stunt? I really feel that linebacking is such an afterthought on this team, that they really don't know how to coach them....free agent linebackers are always better, because they have learned the basics from someone else...

How many times do we see a RB come out of the backfield for a pass, and not one linebacker is in sight.......how many times on a run, is a linebacker not in position to make a play....these are either the most stupid linebackers ever, or they are not being coached up...we see the same mistakes week after week......I am sick of Coughlin taking the blanket blame for all the problems on this team.....we hear it every week, yet nothing seems to be done to correct it....

Like the rest of us, it 's hard to fathom how these linebackers can be so bad....as mentioned before, the Giants have this model of a linebacker that they look for and draft, instead of looking at guys who have play making ability, and fall short on the characteristics they are looking for....

Even next year, what do you do? Do you take a chance on Beason and tie up 6M? All we heard about from practice is, Kennard is a can't miss.....well he's been out there...he's made a play or two(Kaepernick tackle), and he's missed a few(Murray stiff arm).....he should be out there starting the last 5 games, so we can evaluate him.....

Hard to believe Herz is still on this team.....we even overpaid Paysinger to come back.....JW is the classic Giant linebacker.....best coverage linebacker we have......who doesn't make plays in pass coverage....and makes Boley look good at the point of attack....

Without a doubt, the worst linebacking corps in the NFL, year after year, after year, after year.....