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Re-Watching the Game, Jerry and Walton Just Flat Out Suck

Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 4:05 pm
Walton isn't an NFL player. He just gets rag-dolled out there.

And Jerry seems to be involved in almost every negative play.


I know people think I'm too harsh on the Giants' personnel department, but keep in mind that Charles Brown, J.D. Walton, and John Jerry were supposed to be part of the offseson "fix" for the OL.

Schwartz's injuries aren't their fault, but batting 1-out-of-4 isn't good.

In addition, Weston Richburg hasn't really been an asset out there either. I hope he develops because right now, he's not looking terribly impressive either.

I will point again one strange trend.

As bad as the OL has been, in recent weeks, they've been "acceptable" in first half, but completely fallen apart in second half.

I have no explanation for it. It doesn't look like "adjustments"...people are just getting beat (i.e., on first sack where Fells' man blew inside of him, Walton and Jerry also let ONE guy blow past them - no stunt - they just didn't block him... on second sack a few plays later, Beatty just let his man run right by him as Walton just got bulldozed backwards). This isn't scheme.
re  
diable : 12/1/2014 4:10 pm : link
Walton and Jerry don't have the stamina to play HURRY up offense.
diable  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 4:12 pm : link
I don't buy that explanation. First sack happened on second offensive snap of 3rd quarter. Second happened on fifth snap.
Eric...Maybe you can find it in the transcript:  
drkenneth : 12/1/2014 4:12 pm : link
But Coughlin made a remark after the game yesterday..something to the effect: "They made some changes, and we didn't adjust"

Again, that's not the quote, but he made a statement that they didn't adjust to what the other team was doing.
drkenneth  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 4:13 pm : link
All I can tell you is that guys are not blocking guys right over their heads. It's not just stunts.

Go back and look at first two sacks in 3rd quarter.
as to the difference between first half and second half play  
micky : 12/1/2014 4:14 pm : link
which has been happening this second half of season, and since no sort of explanation for cause of such a stark differences, then can conditioning be of factor as to why?
some  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 4:15 pm : link
narratives being suggested on BBI for different reasons don't seem to match up with facts.

For example, the narrative that the Giants got conservative in second half.

Well, the Giants ran the ball more than they passed in first half (23 runs, 19 passes) than they did in second half (12 runs, 19 passes).

Difference? First half, 0 sacks, no turnovers. Second half, 4 sacks, 3 turnovers.
don't worry Eric  
BigBlueCane : 12/1/2014 4:15 pm : link
I have it on good authority, we can continue to ignore the OL and draft more WR's.
Eric  
dune69 : 12/1/2014 4:15 pm : link
the only thing I take issue with your post is that you seem to give management the benefit that Schwartz was a good signing. I don't believe any of these guys are permanent fixes. OL is a mess.
Here's the quote (which I thought was interesting)  
drkenneth : 12/1/2014 4:16 pm : link
"The other guy figures out what we’re trying to do and we have trouble responding to that."
And they don't  
Stufftherun : 12/1/2014 4:16 pm : link
have the atheltic ability or power/stength to position their body's in front of a defender and keep Eli from turning into Gumby.

I'm sorry you did that to yourself Eric?! As if it wasn't ugly enough the first time around.
I don't give Reese a pass given how he let the OL get into this  
bigbluescot : 12/1/2014 4:16 pm : link
state in the first place, but there was just so little talent available in FA in terms of offensive line that if any of the platoon players signed saw lots of time it would be an issue, as it is Jerry, Brown et al saw plenty of time.

Richburg was smallish for center at just under 300lbs so it's not surprising he's struggled a bit at guard especially with Walton to his right. There's no real excuse for not moving him to center just now, Walton was an acceptable gamble to sign (although I'm surprised we didn't go for Dietrich Smith from Green Bay who ended up at the Bucs) even if only to give some contingency if we couldn't get a center in the draft but it just hasn't worked out at all.
micky  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 4:16 pm : link
how can you come out "tired" after halftime?

Regardless, if John Jerry and J.D. Walton are on the team next year, we're in deep trouble again.
Stufftherun  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 4:17 pm : link
I'm only halfway through the 3rd...sigh.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 4:18 pm : link
dune...I'm not weighing in one way or other on Schwartz...not enough to go on.

drkenneth...all I can say is I can't say scheme is an issue when you can't block the guy over your head.

there were  
MookGiants : 12/1/2014 4:18 pm : link
a lot of people in the draft threads getting into fights with myself and multiple others who suggested the Giants didn't do anywhere near enough in the off-season to fix the line.
i will say one thing about this  
nyynyg : 12/1/2014 4:19 pm : link
not playing Richburg at center is one of the biggest coaching mistakes that I have this year.
RE: ...  
drkenneth : 12/1/2014 4:20 pm : link
In comment 12011897 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
dune...I'm not weighing in one way or other on Schwartz...not enough to go on.

drkenneth...all I can say is I can't say scheme is an issue when you can't block the guy over your head.


Not disagreeing, just thought it was a head scratcher.
in the defense of those who thought the OL was significantly addressed  
PetesHereNow : 12/1/2014 4:20 pm : link
I thought we'd get a comeback season out of Snee and a full season of Schwartz. And, I didn't think Pugh would regress. And, I didn't think Walton was THAT bad.

He is. We need two or three interior offensive linemen before we can contemplate being a good offense.
if someone like walton  
Les in TO : 12/1/2014 4:21 pm : link
is getting bulldozed or ragdolled, that's obviously a physical talent issue. if someone is not blocking a defender or blocking the wrong defender leaving another defender unblocked, that is an assignment issue...and the blame on an assignment issue is either on the player for making a mental mistake/not knowing his responsibilities or the coach for not having the line prepared for communicating the appropriate blocking responsibilities; how that blame should be apportioned between OL coach and OL, I'm not qualified to say, but given some other obvious mental mistakes the team is making it seems like a systemic issue.
RE: i will say one thing about this  
Stufftherun : 12/1/2014 4:21 pm : link
In comment 12011902 nyynyg said:
Quote:
not playing Richburg at center is one of the biggest coaching mistakes that I have this year.


They made their bed when they signed Walton and they're too stubborn to admit it was a mistake. We'll see how big a mistake in the off-season.
RE: Eric...Maybe you can find it in the transcript:  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/1/2014 4:22 pm : link
In comment 12011872 drkenneth said:
Quote:
But Coughlin made a remark after the game yesterday..something to the effect: "They made some changes, and we didn't adjust"

Again, that's not the quote, but he made a statement that they didn't adjust to what the other team was doing.


I heard that as well. I was listening to the postgame on the Fan and he said, "Teams are figuring out what they want to do in the second half and for some reason we aren't able to adjust." Isn't that coaching?
i simply dont understand why they signed Walton  
Blue Blood : 12/1/2014 4:22 pm : link
he was hurt.. and he was terrible in Denver and Washington.. I think half the time Jerry Reese thinks he is getting some bargain when he signs a guy who was hurt and has no recovered... Walton is awful.. and Jerry is a joke..
Does the bad Oline play  
Fish : 12/1/2014 4:22 pm : link
have anything to do with Flatery gone? New OL coach not getting through?
Let's face it ...  
Stufftherun : 12/1/2014 4:24 pm : link
these OLine aquistions were someone else's leftovers. If they were good enough they would have stuck there. Enough picking up someone else's garbage and passing it off as a solution.
I'm so fucking sick of Jerry Reese.  
bceagle05 : 12/1/2014 4:25 pm : link
I've had it since the Super Bowl countdown clock debacle. Ask him about the awful TE situation on this roster (yes, it's still awful), and he'll tell you about the Seahawks winning without a great tight end last year. Ask him about the brutal LB situation, and he'll ask you to name the linebackers on the '07 squad.

Dude inherited a team in '07 with a HOF coach, young franchise QB, and dominant offensive and defensive lines, and he acts like he invented football. I know he ran the drafts in those days, but Ernie ultimately called the shots. The talent level all over this roster has diminished greatly on Reese's watch, and it's become laughably bad in the trenches. The fact that Coughlin might walk the plank while he remains pisses me off. Either fire both of them or keep them both here to clean up this mess.
Eric: Didn't watch the game but maybe the answer is that  
Bobby Epps : 12/1/2014 4:25 pm : link
it's like a boxing match. Boxers might spend a few rounds jabbing, head feints, footwork, etc. to see how their opponent reacts.

Similarly, the oppoing DL goes in at half-time and says "I can beat Walton doing this, beat Jerry doing that, etc." and Defensive coaches figure out the scheme to take advantage of what they just heard and then go out in the 2d half and completely stop us.

Our OL tells McAdoo that everything is under control, we (stupidly) listen and make no adjustments for the 2d half. Something like that must be happening.
Jerry just doesn't move....  
Ryan : 12/1/2014 4:26 pm : link
...his feet. When he allows penetration he simply anchors and tries to hold his man up with his arms. It doesn't work and very often when his man gets by he has a clean route to the QB because he doesn't move his feet and try to stick with him and run him upfield. The TE stunts are very effective because there needs to be a shuffle to get the handoff or move back into the hole to pick up the guy coming around.

Unless he's got a significant lower leg issues it's simply lazy technique.
They are such turds  
mrvax : 12/1/2014 4:27 pm : link
you almost wish a washed up Snee & Diehl could come back and replace them. Keyword "almost".
and  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 4:28 pm : link
to be clear, I'm not saying in all of these games there haven't been mental breakdowns, because there have been...especially with twists and stunts.

But it's a physical issue too. These guys just are NOT good. Walton was let go by two teams. Jerry was let go. Brown was let go. Those teams had ZERO interest in re-signing them.
No shit. I said that was a bad signing from the beginning. Walton is  
Victor in CT : 12/1/2014 4:30 pm : link
weak and missed most of the last 2 years.

How weak was J. Martin that he could be bullied by Jerry?

But seriously, Eric, what you are seeing is an affirmation of what you, me and many others here have been saying for going on 3 years: The OL sucks. And the players that Reese has chosen to replenish the outgoing SB OLs have one thing in common: they are all soft, finesse types. None are physically imposing maulers. They are smaller and weaker than the opponents, which is why they wear down in the 2nd half of games. George Young would be appalled.

adjustments don't just come  
djm : 12/1/2014 4:30 pm : link
via the chalkboard. They come from a physical individual stand point as well.

Teams are adjusting to the Giants OL from a physical stand point much like a boxer adjusts during a fight.

"I know people think I'm too harsh on the Giants' personnel department  
ColHowPepper : 12/1/2014 4:30 pm : link
I don't think that at all. I think it's inescapable that R&R and whoever else has his hands in this cauldron of mediocrity, Chris Mara, Coughlin, scouts, have done abysmally.

I have thought Coughlin's tenure should have been over a year or two ago, but the crap he has been given (or helped serve up himself) has accelerated the final chapters.

And I don't know why you stop at ZJerry and Walton, maybe because you've only reached the third quarter, but Brewer is every bit as bad; he may have "left tackle feet", another of the incredibly stupid, short-sighted Jerry Reeseisms in the self-congratulatory bullspit in the days after the draft, but the rest of his body has lead weights tied to his arms, thighs, torso, etc. He is immobile; he's even slow to get to the opposing DL pileup on Eli after letting the LDE or LDT through his turnstile.

How he survived on this team's roster for three years (is it four now?), indeed how many on the board crowed for his insertion because he was going to be a stud, is truly remarkable.

One thing I'll say for TC: he may favor vets over rookies, but if rookies can "play", he will not hesitate to dress and put them on the field. I don't buy it that he won't play rookies. That Brewer, Mosley, Hosley, etc. didn't was a tell as to how bad they are. Tom is not into self-sabotage that way, other ways maybe.
I just heard O'Hara killing these guys  
bceagle05 : 12/1/2014 4:30 pm : link
on Michael Kay's show. Talking about Beatty and Walton just standing there watching Jennings fight for the loose ball in the end zone. That play was max protect, and Eli got crushed by two guys before even planting his back leg. Unheard of (O'Hara's words).

The St. Louis game is gonna be a bloodbath in the trenches. For us.
Eric  
GMANinDC : 12/1/2014 4:31 pm : link
Dont' know what you're surprised with walton. Some of us been pointing things about him before he signed. it was telling that dnver drafted a Center 2 years after they drafted him and that he sat dormant for a year.

As bad as the Skins line is, they even let him go..That should have been thge clue..
RE: don't worry Eric  
djm : 12/1/2014 4:31 pm : link
In comment 12011880 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
I have it on good authority, we can continue to ignore the OL and draft more WR's.


Yep. I am sure everyone, shit I am sure ONE person said just that. Ignore the OL...fuck it...just draft skill players.

More than likely people said you don't necessarily have to draft OL in round one. But you knew that.
Eric I think the fact that they seem to run more  
Clearwater Joe : 12/1/2014 4:32 pm : link
in the first half is the reason for the difference you see. I think Jerry is a better run blocker than pass blocker (although not terribly good at either) and we run more in the first half.
we wont have a solid OL  
hitdog42 : 12/1/2014 4:32 pm : link
until we have a good C. Walton has sucked all year and continues to stink- can we please learn whether the new C is on the roster. its maddening.
Walton is even paid decent money to play.. hes just awful
Primarily, it's just bad players.  
chops : 12/1/2014 4:33 pm : link
The O Line is the worst in the league and the worst since I've been following the Giants in 80 years.

We need to start over.
hopefully  
Les in TO : 12/1/2014 4:33 pm : link
walton and jerry are gone next year.

hopefully we can see what richburg can do at C for the remainder of the year. it would be great if our major need comes down to a left guard. schwartz and pugh are question marks but i think we need to at least pencil them in next year as starters.
Anyone who watched the entire game  
aimrocky : 12/1/2014 4:34 pm : link
can see that once the line play dropped, the game snow balled. Our only chance would be for the defense to make a few stops, and we know this defense is incapable of doing that. The offense had no intentions of producing in the 2nd half.

But, it's easy to blame Coughlin for this, and most of the posters on this site are dim bulbs, so that's usually what floods the board these days.

I noticed on a few of the sack's Walton gave up, it appeared that he was too embarrassed to look back at Eli or turn around and help him up. I can't imagine how bad it looks when they're all in the meeting room together.
if Schwartz doesn't get hurt  
djm : 12/1/2014 4:34 pm : link
the OL wouldn't have sucked as much as it did. That's not to excuse NYG brass from failing to field a good OL but they did spend two big chips on the OL this past off season. Schwartz and the 2nd rounder isn't exactly ignoring the position. Maybe they should have signed one more guy...and we'd still suck this very second.

We need to add one more legit starter, another young talent via the draft and we need a relatively healthy season from everyone.
OL  
stretch234 : 12/1/2014 4:39 pm : link
Jerry was always considered a player not playing up to his capabilities. You never heard he was bad and actually was a better pass blocker than run blocker.

I thought the change would do him good, but he really has not been good at all in pass protection

Walton started from day 1 and played up until he got hurt and was a good player. Unfortunately, almost 2 years out of football just seems too much.

Richburg is playing a new position - next year he needs to be the C. Schwartz needs to be the RG Pugh needs to be the RT and Beatty the LT. Find a competent G somewhere

If Nicks does not mess up his leg and fall from a top 10 WR to irrelevant, Martin is a Giant. Instead they had to go get a new No 1.
RE: Let's face it ...  
Randy in CT : 12/1/2014 4:39 pm : link
In comment 12011921 Stufftherun said:
Quote:
these OLine aquistions were someone else's leftovers. If they were good enough they would have stuck there. Enough picking up someone else's garbage and passing it off as a solution.
That is dopey.

Many of the players we acquired suck. But teams acquire good players all the time. pay attention.
Richburg has a lot of weight training  
Headhunter : 12/1/2014 4:41 pm : link
to do this off season. He has to come back as athletic but bulked up by 10 lbs of muscle. He has to be handed the starting C spot on get away day
If  
BigBlueCane : 12/1/2014 4:43 pm : link
ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas.

Stop fcuking around and draft OL.

Brandon Mosley?  
ij_reilly : 12/1/2014 4:44 pm : link
He must really suck if he can't even get a uniform.

I guess with the Schwartz injury, he may be active this week.
RE: there were  
bigbluescot : 12/1/2014 4:44 pm : link
In comment 12011898 MookGiants said:
Quote:
a lot of people in the draft threads getting into fights with myself and multiple others who suggested the Giants didn't do anywhere near enough in the off-season to fix the line.


Other than drafting Martin over Beckham, I'm not sure what they could have done. There wasn't a load of free agent oline talent available. Taking a Free Agency rating site at random, in this case WalterFootball, we signed the number 2 rated Guard (the number 1 retired, the number 3 was Kevin Boothe, and the 4th was Jerry). Walton was a poor move at center but we needed to get a center in before the draft, I'm really surprised we didn't go for Evan Dietrich-Smith due to his familiarity but then he's really struggled for the Bucs as well

Quote:
Evan, the struggles with him are in the run game, but I think in the pass game he's really struggled (as well)," Landry said. "I think when you have a guy like that who is a good technician, but he is not as physical when you have some problems at guard which we know they have, has really hurt.

"Now I thinks it's helped a little bit when Mankins has been in there. He's graded out better when Mankins has been to his side. Overall, I think it's been disappointing. When you look at the run game, he's had some success when he has been uncovered, but when he plays against odd fronts, he struggles a bit more when he has someone over him.

"He can play better ball, but the play around him needs to be better, too. Ideally with two good guards in front of him, he'll do really good because he's good at helping out. His strength I think is pass blocking, but he's struggled there to this point as well."



The issue isn't so much what Reese did or didn't do this off-season, it's the state he let the oline get into in the first place.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/1/2014 4:44 pm : link
John Jerry looks like he's never seen a stunt in his life.

If the player he's blocking isn't coming from directly in front of him, he can't block them.

It's remarkable in the most shitty, embarrassing way possible.

And Walton is fucking brutal. Tackles just run right through him. These guys are both horrid.
RE: Brandon Mosley?  
Victor in CT : 12/1/2014 4:45 pm : link
In comment 12011989 ij_reilly said:
Quote:
He must really suck if he can't even get a uniform.

I guess with the Schwartz injury, he may be active this week.


Well, we found out yesterday why Brewer wasn't getting one. They are loaded with Pillsbury Dough Boys
While I'm still optimistic that  
phil in arizona : 12/1/2014 4:46 pm : link
an offseason in the weight room would really benefit Richburg, we said the same thing about Pugh.
Eric  
Matt M. : 12/1/2014 4:47 pm : link
Do you think Richburg is just being asked to do too much at an unnatural position based on the terrible performance of Walton, next to him? Or, is he potentially hitting a wall? Because he looked decent early in the season.

I still have high hopes for him as the OC next year.
Pugh could also have been 1) hurting more than he let on  
Victor in CT : 12/1/2014 4:47 pm : link
and 2) suffering from having Jerry next to him.

But he clearly has had a rough season
I do recall a collection of posters that thought Jerry had promise..  
BurberryManning : 12/1/2014 4:47 pm : link
while other posters pointed out that he had been cast away from Miami and was considered a terrible football player.

"But the Giants obviously see something that they like!"
w.richburg is the biggest concern  
area junc : 12/1/2014 4:47 pm : link
now, hopefully it's just the case of this staff being lost - as in the case of playing pugh over schwartz at RT when it's clear schwartz is better there, locklear is better than diehl, on and on

but richburg being benched for ineffective play when we have nobody else has to be discouraging. we liked this guy enough that we had to have him at #43 overall so you'd hate to think he'd get benched for sucking after getting extended playing time. but there we are.

fwiw, i think his best position is C and like Schwartz at LG (and not RT or RG) this clueless staff has him playing the wrong spot
RE: RE: Let's face it ...  
Stufftherun : 12/1/2014 4:48 pm : link
In comment 12011981 Randy in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 12011921 Stufftherun said:


Quote:


these OLine aquistions were someone else's leftovers. If they were good enough they would have stuck there. Enough picking up someone else's garbage and passing it off as a solution.

That is dopey.

Many of the players we acquired suck. But teams acquire good players all the time. pay attention.


Ahh Randy, try reading the OP, we're speaking of the OLine and very specific players. In fact you covered this very subject in the 4:15 thread. Perhaps you're juggling of threads has your head spinning.
Jerry, Walton and Charles Brown  
bceagle05 : 12/1/2014 4:48 pm : link
are in the conversation for the worst OLs in the history of the franchise. Move over, Ian Allen! I cannot believe they were all on the same roster. Employing ANY of those three, even as backups, is a sign your OL sucks. We employed ALL three, and two are starters. It's historic.
RE: Let's face it ...  
HomerJones45 : 12/1/2014 4:49 pm : link
In comment 12011921 Stufftherun said:
Quote:
these OLine aquistions were someone else's leftovers. If they were good enough they would have stuck there. Enough picking up someone else's garbage and passing it off as a solution.
That's right. What did people expect? Schwartz was the only one who was a legitimate player and he's played what? a game and a half this season. Walton, Jerry and Brown were bargain basement castoffs.

Jerry and Brown were both 1 year deals for about $750,000 each. That's Filene's Basement money. Walton hadn't played in two seasons and had been waived by the Redskins when we signed him.
RE: .  
bigbluescot : 12/1/2014 4:49 pm : link
In comment 12011991 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
John Jerry looks like he's never seen a stunt in his life.

If the player he's blocking isn't coming from directly in front of him, he can't block them.

It's remarkable in the most shitty, embarrassing way possible.

And Walton is fucking brutal. Tackles just run right through him. These guys are both horrid.


The knock on Jerry was that he was talented but very inconsistent. I don't really see the talent.
Jerry looks  
area junc : 12/1/2014 4:51 pm : link
all world on some plays. he has talent. thats why he's stuck around for a starter all these years
Anyone see Jerry in Miami?  
jcn56 : 12/1/2014 4:51 pm : link
He didn't look great, but he didn't look this bad.

Beatty? Has looked better, but looks like shit half the time. Pugh looked better last year, and has regressed, Richburg was better earlier in the season than now, etc.

Give guys enough time on this roster, and they end up looking worse.
I also don't understand not even dressing Moseley  
Matt M. : 12/1/2014 4:51 pm : link
Last year, I thought he played well enough to at least warrant a look as a potential starter this year, especially after the injuries. Granted, he didn't have a great pre-season. But, how is it possible that he is worse than Jerry has been? Even if you think he is as bad, which I have a hard time believing), wouldn't it make sense at this point to play the younger guy who at least has the potential to get better?
My favorite play was when Walton just ran by the guy rushing  
jeff57 : 12/1/2014 4:52 pm : link
the passer with his arms firmly at his side.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/1/2014 4:55 pm : link
Like I said, if there's a lineman in front of Jerry, he's usually able to block them. Any time he's got to move around at all to get someone, forget it.

He's just not good.
I expected at least  
phil in arizona : 12/1/2014 4:56 pm : link
some pass protection out of Jerry, Walton and Brown.

Don't care about Jerry, Walton, Brown  
oldutican : 12/1/2014 5:00 pm : link
I'm worried about Pugh and Richburg. If they don't cut it, that sets O-line back another year.
Question about our line.  
phil in arizona : 12/1/2014 5:01 pm : link
Did we switch from a man/power blocking scheme to a zone blocking scheme?
In fairness  
Milton : 12/1/2014 5:03 pm : link
Brown and Jerry signed for the veteran minimums and purposes of depth. Walton signed a two year contract for low money and they did draft Richburg early round 2 to be their center of the future, so basically all three (Brown, Jerry, Walton) were brought in as insurance. It's not like they were plan A.
RE: Don't care about Jerry, Walton, Brown  
bceagle05 : 12/1/2014 5:03 pm : link
In comment 12012036 oldutican said:
Quote:
I'm worried about Pugh and Richburg. If they don't cut it, that sets O-line back another year.


Good point. Those other scrubs are here one day, gone the next. If Pugh and Richburg, and Schwartz to a lesser extent, don't work out, we're are fucked.
RE: Anyone see Jerry in Miami?  
HomerJones45 : 12/1/2014 5:03 pm : link
In comment 12012016 jcn56 said:
Quote:
He didn't look great, but he didn't look this bad.

Beatty? Has looked better, but looks like shit half the time. Pugh looked better last year, and has regressed, Richburg was better earlier in the season than now, etc.

Give guys enough time on this roster, and they end up looking worse.
Tannehill was the most sacked qb in the league last season. Jerry couldn't have looked too good. But let's also understand that Jerry was not signed as a starter. He is having to fill extended time because Schwartz basically didn't play this season.

Walton is the surprising one. He was supposed to be the second best center in the draft after Pouncy, we gave him starter money but other teams are just putting a guy over his head and blowing him right the fuck up.

Get Moseley out of your heads. He flat out sucks and will be OOF next season along with Brewer.
There's just no  
ryanmkeane : 12/1/2014 5:03 pm : link
possible way that we go into next season with Walton and Jerry on the roster is there? Our personnel department cannot possibly think that these guys are the answer week after week. For all the talk of Pugh "not being a guard" perhaps it is time to try it out - because we have the worst interior trio of linemen in the league right now, and its really not close.
Don't need to re-watch the game to see Walton sucks.  
Shockeyisthebest80 : 12/1/2014 5:06 pm : link
You can see that clearly live.

- We crossed our fingers on Beatty. He's been better, but still ridiculously inconsistent.
- The fall-off with Pugh is almost difficult to fathom. I really just hope he was hiding an injury most of, if not the entire season.
- Schwartz never got going and never played at his original position. (He did look really bad in the preseason.)
- Walton and Richburg were supposed to man the center position. I remember reading on PFF before the season that Walton was really bad in Denver. He hasn't shown anything different so far. Richburg has been bad, but I will give him the "out of position" pass. The problem is when a guy looks that bad, it's hard to believe they'll look better elsewhere.

I honestly can't even recall what the plan was for the other guard spot.

For comparison's sake, the Patriots' starting OL consists of a first round pick, a 2nd round pick, a 4th round pick, and 2 undrafted rookie free agents from their practice squad.
Flahefty and Reese both flat out said Jerry was brought in to compete  
Riggies : 12/1/2014 5:08 pm : link
for a starting spot.

I suppose they could both have lied, but it's more likely, based on recent track record, it being truth is not unlikely.
Walton was godawful  
Phil in LA : 12/1/2014 5:12 pm : link
Richburg needs to be the Center if just to provide an incrementally longer route to Eli.
RE: Jerry, Walton and Charles Brown  
Milton : 12/1/2014 5:19 pm : link
In comment 12012006 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
are in the conversation for the worst OLs in the history of the franchise. Move over, Ian Allen! I cannot believe they were all on the same roster. Employing ANY of those three, even as backups, is a sign your OL sucks. We employed ALL three, and two are starters. It's historic.
In 2003, the year that cost Fassel his job, Accorsi thought it was cool to let Rosenthal and Whittle leave via free agency and enter the year with veterans Luke Petitgout, Chris Bober, and Ian Allen; and rookies David Diehl (5th round), Wayne Lucier (7th round) and Jeff Roehl (undrafted) protecting their franchise QB. And this year is beginning to look a lot like 2003 (believe it or not, the 2014 Giants are loaded with offensive talent compared to the 2003 squad).
RE: Flahefty and Reese both flat out said Jerry was brought in to compete  
HomerJones45 : 12/1/2014 5:19 pm : link
In comment 12012054 Riggies said:
Quote:
for a starting spot.

I suppose they could both have lied, but it's more likely, based on recent track record, it being truth is not unlikely.
Happy talk, that's all it was. A 1 year deal for $750,000 doesn't scream 'starter material'
RE: Flahefty and Reese both flat out said Jerry was brought in to compete  
Milton : 12/1/2014 5:22 pm : link
In comment 12012054 Riggies said:
Quote:
for a starting spot.

I suppose they could both have lied, but it's more likely, based on recent track record, it being truth is not unlikely.
Yes, Jerry was told he would have the opportunity to compete for the starting job. He was a former 2nd round pick and was a starter with Miami. Why not give him a chance to compete? But money talks and bullshit walks and he was paid the minimum possible. Not exactly a show of confidence regarding his ability to actually win the starting job.
RE: RE: Jerry, Walton and Charles Brown  
Shockeyisthebest80 : 12/1/2014 5:23 pm : link
In comment 12012072 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 12012006 bceagle05 said:


Quote:


are in the conversation for the worst OLs in the history of the franchise. Move over, Ian Allen! I cannot believe they were all on the same roster. Employing ANY of those three, even as backups, is a sign your OL sucks. We employed ALL three, and two are starters. It's historic.

In 2003, the year that cost Fassel his job, Accorsi thought it was cool to let Rosenthal and Whittle leave via free agency and enter the year with veterans Luke Petitgout, Chris Bober, and Ian Allen; and rookies David Diehl (5th round), Wayne Lucier (7th round) and Jeff Roehl (undrafted) protecting their franchise QB. And this year is beginning to look a lot like 2003 (believe it or not, the 2014 Giants are loaded with offensive talent compared to the 2003 squad).


I could be wrong, but I recall that the Giants offered Rosenthal the same (or more) money as Minnesota and he just chose to go there.
It is clear as a bell  
Some Fan : 12/1/2014 5:24 pm : link
our talent level is a 6 win team. That is the reason we are in the straits we're in. We are one of the least talented teams in the league even with ONJ and Eli. I would classify our talent as something worse than mediocre. Plus, the entire OL should be blown up. There is not a definite keeper in the bunch.
I agree with Eric 100% on this.  
Andy in Boston : 12/1/2014 5:26 pm : link
Walton and Jerry are the clear weak links on this oline.
The issue with Richburg is that 1) He's a rookie and 2) people forget, he's playing out of position. I think he'll be a better center....he's just too small to play guard.

The bigger concerning issue here, is how can Reese/our pro-personnel department miss so badly on these guys? Jerry/Walton/Brown??
If W. Richburg can't  
COLT46 : 12/1/2014 5:28 pm : link
play Guard how in the hell is he going to play at a much harder NFL position like center with all the added responsibility? cmon man!
$2.5 million including $1.25 million signing bonus  
SB : 12/1/2014 5:29 pm : link
for a guy that hadn't played in 2 years.
in hindsight  
Andy in Boston : 12/1/2014 5:29 pm : link
we should have potentially made a push for Alex Mack, which could have solved issues; assuming he didn't get hurt.

other good options.
Trading for Logan Mankins (Although not sure how he's done this year)

RE: If W. Richburg can't  
jeff57 : 12/1/2014 5:32 pm : link
In comment 12012087 COLT46 said:
Quote:
play Guard how in the hell is he going to play at a much harder NFL position like center with all the added responsibility? cmon man!


He can play guard but his better position, the one he played in college and was drafted to play, is center. He should be playing it the last 4 games. But expect stubborn Tom to stick with the less than mediocre veteran Walton.
jeff57  
COLT46 : 12/1/2014 5:40 pm : link
If he is struggling at the Guard position we sure as hell don't want him anywhere near the Center position. It's most likely what the coaches are thinking also.
Walton,  
AcidTest : 12/1/2014 5:44 pm : link
Jerry, and Brown were Reese taking a shotgun approach and hoping at least one would work. He's big with "reclamation" projects. He did the same thing a few years ago with CBs, including Ross. Every team has a few, but we have too many. These guys are awful. They should all be cut. And how bad are Brewer and Mosley that they can't even beat them out? Cut or don't resign them as well. Two more busted Reese draft picks. But the real disaster as several people noted, is if Pugh and Richburg don't work out. We better hope that Pugh regressed because of injury and playing next to Jerry, and the Richburg will look better next year at center and after a year in an NFL weight training program. This is terrible.
Richburg's a rookie, and his move to guard  
bceagle05 : 12/1/2014 5:49 pm : link
had more to do with Schwartz's injury than anything else. Had he been relegated to the back-up center role from the start, he would've gotten a look there by now. The coaches see what we see, they just have no viable alternatives for an interior re-shuffle. I don't think it's any cause for alarm...yet. The domino effect of the Schwartz injury was fatal for this team.
RE: jeff57  
jeff57 : 12/1/2014 5:53 pm : link
In comment 12012106 COLT46 said:
Quote:
If he is struggling at the Guard position we sure as hell don't want him anywhere near the Center position. It's most likely what the coaches are thinking also.


He's had to play out of position as a rookie with the horrible Walton and Jerry to his right, Injuries and stubbornness is why he's not playing center. He had several good games early in the season. Walton hasn't had any good games.
OK  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 5:54 pm : link
now I'm getting fucking pissed.

There is a reason why the Giants can't throw more...even on short drop backs, the god damn line can't hold a block for 3 seconds. It's unbelievable. It just gets worse as the game progresses.
RE: Don't care about Jerry, Walton, Brown  
Bill in UT : 12/1/2014 5:54 pm : link
In comment 12012036 oldutican said:
Quote:
I'm worried about Pugh and Richburg. If they don't cut it, that sets O-line back another year.


Unless we go OL in the first 2 rounds, which is not likely, it probably sets us back 2 years
it looks to me like the players  
Dave : 12/1/2014 5:55 pm : link
are enjoying beer and pizza at halftime instead of making adjustments...
It all comes down  
BP in NJ : 12/1/2014 5:55 pm : link
to drafting better. If the Giants hadn't completely whiffed on drafting OL(i.e., Mosley, Brewer(who was horrible yesterday), McCants, to name a few), we wouldn't need to sign the Jerrys, and the Waltons of the world.

How can James Brewer not be ready to be at least servicable by year 4, if he had any NFL talent to begin with? Answer is, he never had talent to begin with, which means something is off with our scouting. We have routinely fucked up drafting this key position.

Here are the lineman the Giants have drafted in recent years:

Richburg, Pugh, Herman, Mosley, McCants, Brewer, Petrus, Beatty.

IO'll give them Beatty, but come on. That is just terrible on the rest.
RE: I just heard O'Hara killing these guys  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/1/2014 6:00 pm : link
In comment 12011948 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
on Michael Kay's show. Talking about Beatty and Walton just standing there watching Jennings fight for the loose ball in the end zone. That play was max protect, and Eli got crushed by two guys before even planting his back leg. Unheard of (O'Hara's words).

The St. Louis game is gonna be a bloodbath in the trenches. For us.


Let's check the tape..



Beatty and Walton literally taking vacation in the end zone. My goodness.
Wow.  
drkenneth : 12/1/2014 6:01 pm : link
...
RE: RE: Jerry, Walton and Charles Brown  
FStubbs : 12/1/2014 6:06 pm : link
In comment 12012072 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 12012006 bceagle05 said:


Quote:


are in the conversation for the worst OLs in the history of the franchise. Move over, Ian Allen! I cannot believe they were all on the same roster. Employing ANY of those three, even as backups, is a sign your OL sucks. We employed ALL three, and two are starters. It's historic.

In 2003, the year that cost Fassel his job, Accorsi thought it was cool to let Rosenthal and Whittle leave via free agency and enter the year with veterans Luke Petitgout, Chris Bober, and Ian Allen; and rookies David Diehl (5th round), Wayne Lucier (7th round) and Jeff Roehl (undrafted) protecting their franchise QB. And this year is beginning to look a lot like 2003 (believe it or not, the 2014 Giants are loaded with offensive talent compared to the 2003 squad).


Shockey, Toomer, and Barber vs OBJ and ...

I'll go for 2003 thanks.
Jerry Reese needs to go  
Marty866b : 12/1/2014 6:17 pm : link
Biggest problem last season was the o-line and he signs a journeyman in Schwartz,horrible players in Brown,Jerry,and Walton,drafts a center who they put at guard and thinks that we are ready to compete with this crap. Except for the quarterback position and Beckham this is the least talented team in the entire NFL. Who is to blame. The guy and his management who has brought in this lack of talent.
BTW,Walton is just incredibly shit and it's unbelievable that this coaching staff and benched him and let Richburg play his natural position.
Eric. My heart goes out to you for your courage in re-watching these  
Marty in Albany : 12/1/2014 6:19 pm : link
Horrific games.
Looking at the play again, Fells should have had it to begin with  
jeff57 : 12/1/2014 6:26 pm : link
I understand what Jennings was trying to do --avoid the safety by running it out.
More Upset - OL Or The Blitz?  
Trainmaster : 12/1/2014 6:36 pm : link
In looking at the video clip posted at 6:00 pm, I'm not sure if I'm more upset with the absolutely lousy blocking and effort on the fumble or how effective the Jacksonville blitz was.

Have the Giant successfully executed any blitz' one quarter as effective as this one? Three guys converge on Eli in a heart beat.
RE: OK  
Paulie Walnuts : 12/1/2014 6:38 pm : link
In comment 12012130 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
now I'm getting fucking pissed.

There is a reason why the Giants can't throw more...even on short drop backs, the god damn line can't hold a block for 3 seconds. It's unbelievable. It just gets worse as the game progresses.


Eric I could see this crap in the Pre season. Walton has no vision, no movement or feet I saw a guy run right by him up the A gap in Pre season
The Eagles pulled our pants down in week 6 with the double A gap blitzes and we have been shit ever since
Walton is the worst center in the league

all this shit that TC is getting today is on the fcuking front office and that smug ass Reese .. Ross needs to be fired TODAY
Last year...  
Brian T : 12/1/2014 6:40 pm : link
Jimmy Cordle was the "weak link"...

Now I wish JC was at Guard or Center THIS Season
It  
blue42 : 12/1/2014 7:04 pm : link
looked like Beatty injured his hand and was trying to get to the ball but was hurt. No excuse for the others.
Jennings should have just fallen on the ball. He does that we win. same for our kicker.....do your job.
Jerry sucked in Miami . Walton sucked in Denver. Brown sucked in NO.  
Red Dog : 12/1/2014 7:32 pm : link
Jerry had a reputation for doing just enough to keep his job and no more. They were VERY glad to get rid of him and are clearly a better team without him.

Walton was not developing well at Denver. His first two years were really bad, then he started playing a little better but got hurt early in his third season. They cut him. Shanahan signed him to play C for Washington after he recovered, but he never played for the 'Skins who cut him as soon as Shanahan was history. So he was a hope and a prayer as an acquisition.

Charles Brown was flat out horrible in New Orleans despite being a second round draft choice. They cut him because he was a turnstyle in the passing game.

All three of these guys really hadn't done squat with their former teams, which is why they were on the market, and that information was available to anyone who cared to do a little research.

To think that they were going to save the GIANTS OL is really insane.

...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 12/1/2014 7:35 pm : link
Love that we surround The Franchise with absolute garbage. Way to go Jerry Reese!
RE: Jerry sucked in Miami . Walton sucked in Denver. Brown sucked in NO.  
AcidTest : 12/1/2014 7:46 pm : link
In comment 12012287 Red Dog said:
Quote:
Jerry had a reputation for doing just enough to keep his job and no more. They were VERY glad to get rid of him and are clearly a better team without him.

Walton was not developing well at Denver. His first two years were really bad, then he started playing a little better but got hurt early in his third season. They cut him. Shanahan signed him to play C for Washington after he recovered, but he never played for the 'Skins who cut him as soon as Shanahan was history. So he was a hope and a prayer as an acquisition.

Charles Brown was flat out horrible in New Orleans despite being a second round draft choice. They cut him because he was a turnstyle in the passing game.

All three of these guys really hadn't done squat with their former teams, which is why they were on the market, and that information was available to anyone who cared to do a little research.

To think that they were going to save the GIANTS OL is really insane.


This. Walton did have some success in Denver, and I thought that the Redskins, who also needed OL help, cut him because he wasn't fully recovered from his injury. Jerry and Brown were bad with their respective teams, but the Giants either thought they could nonetheless make them effective players, or realized that even if they couldn't, that they would still be better than what they already had. If the latter, that is another damning indictment of Reese and Ross.
.....  
Micko : 12/1/2014 7:52 pm : link
You know it's gotten bad when Eric starts dropping f-bombs all over the place. Did I catch a fucktard yesterday?
RE: $2.5 million including $1.25 million signing bonus  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/1/2014 8:04 pm : link
In comment 12012089 SB said:
Quote:
for a guy that hadn't played in 2 years.


for that money they could've kept Kevin Boothe and played him at G and Richburg at center.
jennings was crap on that play too  
oipolloi : 12/1/2014 8:20 pm : link
made almost no effort to block the pass rusher and was pushed back into Eli like a blocking sled

and then he made a junior high mistake of trying to pick the ball up in a scrum

but Walton and Beatty just were not playing. Beatty at least looks like he had hurt or his hand.

So much for the idea that the players have not quit. That replay is exhibit A in guys not playing hard.

re  
diable : 12/1/2014 8:30 pm : link
The play was already whistled dead.
RE: jennings was crap on that play too  
SwirlingEddie : 12/1/2014 8:35 pm : link
In comment 12012380 oipolloi said:
Quote:
made almost no effort to block the pass rusher and was pushed back into Eli like a blocking sled

and then he made a junior high mistake of trying to pick the ball up in a scrum

but Walton and Beatty just were not playing. Beatty at least looks like he had hurt or his hand.

So much for the idea that the players have not quit. That replay is exhibit A in guys not playing hard.


I just noticed this too in the video. Beatty blocks with one arm only and at the end of the play grabs at his wrist. I really think he was injured there which may help explain his hesitancy to dive/reach into the pile. Doesn't excuse all the other horribleness of that play however.
Watching that gif was horrifying  
Giants4246 : 12/1/2014 8:35 pm : link
Fells completely wiffed on his block causing eli to get clobbered
And jennings had absolutely no chance on that play  
Giants4246 : 12/1/2014 8:40 pm : link
He was trying to pick up the man that fells wiffed on and then got clobbered by a blitzing LBer. What a fucking clown show.
doesn't look like Beatty or Walton could see the ball  
HomerJones45 : 12/1/2014 8:41 pm : link
It was the blitz. Fells missed and Jennings got steamrolled. The other Jag got passed both Jerry and Walton.
...  
christian : 12/1/2014 9:02 pm : link
It's tough to accept, but this was always, always a rebuild year. There just wasn't a market for good lineman in free agency and none of our late round picks developed.

Reese acquired easy to dispose players to stem the tide. He certainly made his bed, but this offseason what else could he have done?

The list of free agents available was remarkably unimpressive. The only marquee player was Mack. The Browns were prepared to match virtually any offer and did. When Schwartz is a top 5 rated free agent across all free agents, that's telling.

I'm glad we didn't blow cap space in a weak class. We have money to spend in a class filled with skill position players. If we manage to land Iupati, for instance and field a line of Beatty, Iupati, Ritchberg, Schwartz, Pugh next year, it will be well worth the patience.
the core  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 9:04 pm : link
problem here is that someone at NYG Central said, "Hey, let's sign Walton, Brown, and Jerry." They watched the film and still decided to sign these guys, even if it involved vet minimum contracts.

They are playing with fire with their "franchise" QB...both physically and mentally.
Reese has to go  
Coughlin's Rules : 12/1/2014 9:05 pm : link
Any GM will work with TC
Giants4246  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 9:05 pm : link
don't let the Fells whiff also distract you from the "double team" botch job Walton and Jerry did on the tackle blowing up the middle and hitting Manning at the same moment.
what  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/1/2014 9:06 pm : link
we don't know is how much Coughlin and OL coach had a say in these signings too.
Yes we do  
Coughlin's Rules : 12/1/2014 9:19 pm : link
He always played Deihl and Snee never used brewer mosely etc. He built one of the best OLine in college in JAX and NY. He knows football players. Our drafts improved immediately after he was hired. Something seems off with Reese and Ross at control. Give TC and new GM one draft it will probably be our best in 10 yrs.
...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 12/1/2014 9:21 pm : link
Eric, that's what gets me. Eli is The Franchise. And you're surrounding him with this garbage? Makes no sense. But then again, Reese has done a pitiful job of late so it shouldn't surprise me.
perhaps Reese and Flaherty  
Simms11 : 12/1/2014 9:49 pm : link
thought they had something to work with?! I just hope Reese learned something from this year and gets this thing fixed next year. If Richburg can't do the job at center next year, it will set us back again, possibly another few years and hopefully Pugh bounces back too!
didn't philly tell everyone the way you beat the Giants?  
mattlawson : 12/1/2014 10:03 pm : link
A gap pressure... Eli doesn't move and our interior OL suck major ass. how havent we found a solution there yet? keep in mind, kevin boothe was available to be re-signed vs these fools.
RE: Giants4246  
Giants4246 : 12/1/2014 10:12 pm : link
In comment 12012487 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
don't let the Fells whiff also distract you from the "double team" botch job Walton and Jerry did on the tackle blowing up the middle and hitting Manning at the same moment.


They were putrid, and its comical that as the ball is rolling back towards the fucking endzone walton is just standing there watching it roll. Then he leisurely jogs over and then does some more spectating as jennings is handing them a TD. I'm amazed eli even got up after that, he literally disappeared after 2 of the jag defenders busted through the line and pushed our O-line straight back into him.
RE: If W. Richburg can't  
SGMen : 12/1/2014 10:21 pm : link
In comment 12012087 COLT46 said:
Quote:
play Guard how in the hell is he going to play at a much harder NFL position like center with all the added responsibility? cmon man!
Richburg played center for four years in college. He will add 10 pounds in the off-season to get to 300 because he is small right now. The experience he is getting this year will benefit him at center next year. But overall, Reese didn't do well drafting or signing veterans to fix this mess. Eli has no chance.
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