Walton isn't an NFL player. He just gets rag-dolled out there.
And Jerry seems to be involved in almost every negative play.
I know people think I'm too harsh on the Giants' personnel department, but keep in mind that Charles Brown, J.D. Walton, and John Jerry were supposed to be part of the offseson "fix" for the OL.
Schwartz's injuries aren't their fault, but batting 1-out-of-4 isn't good.
In addition, Weston Richburg hasn't really been an asset out there either. I hope he develops because right now, he's not looking terribly impressive either.
I will point again one strange trend.
As bad as the OL has been, in recent weeks, they've been "acceptable" in first half, but completely fallen apart in second half.
I have no explanation for it. It doesn't look like "adjustments"...people are just getting beat (i.e., on first sack where Fells' man blew inside of him, Walton and Jerry also let ONE guy blow past them - no stunt - they just didn't block him... on second sack a few plays later, Beatty just let his man run right by him as Walton just got bulldozed backwards). This isn't scheme.
Again, that's not the quote, but he made a statement that they didn't adjust to what the other team was doing.
Go back and look at first two sacks in 3rd quarter.
For example, the narrative that the Giants got conservative in second half.
Well, the Giants ran the ball more than they passed in first half (23 runs, 19 passes) than they did in second half (12 runs, 19 passes).
Difference? First half, 0 sacks, no turnovers. Second half, 4 sacks, 3 turnovers.
I'm sorry you did that to yourself Eric?! As if it wasn't ugly enough the first time around.
Richburg was smallish for center at just under 300lbs so it's not surprising he's struggled a bit at guard especially with Walton to his right. There's no real excuse for not moving him to center just now, Walton was an acceptable gamble to sign (although I'm surprised we didn't go for Dietrich Smith from Green Bay who ended up at the Bucs) even if only to give some contingency if we couldn't get a center in the draft but it just hasn't worked out at all.
Regardless, if John Jerry and J.D. Walton are on the team next year, we're in deep trouble again.
drkenneth...all I can say is I can't say scheme is an issue when you can't block the guy over your head.
drkenneth...all I can say is I can't say scheme is an issue when you can't block the guy over your head.
Not disagreeing, just thought it was a head scratcher.
He is. We need two or three interior offensive linemen before we can contemplate being a good offense.
They made their bed when they signed Walton and they're too stubborn to admit it was a mistake. We'll see how big a mistake in the off-season.
Again, that's not the quote, but he made a statement that they didn't adjust to what the other team was doing.
I heard that as well. I was listening to the postgame on the Fan and he said, "Teams are figuring out what they want to do in the second half and for some reason we aren't able to adjust." Isn't that coaching?
Dude inherited a team in '07 with a HOF coach, young franchise QB, and dominant offensive and defensive lines, and he acts like he invented football. I know he ran the drafts in those days, but Ernie ultimately called the shots. The talent level all over this roster has diminished greatly on Reese's watch, and it's become laughably bad in the trenches. The fact that Coughlin might walk the plank while he remains pisses me off. Either fire both of them or keep them both here to clean up this mess.
Similarly, the oppoing DL goes in at half-time and says "I can beat Walton doing this, beat Jerry doing that, etc." and Defensive coaches figure out the scheme to take advantage of what they just heard and then go out in the 2d half and completely stop us.
Our OL tells McAdoo that everything is under control, we (stupidly) listen and make no adjustments for the 2d half. Something like that must be happening.
Unless he's got a significant lower leg issues it's simply lazy technique.
But it's a physical issue too. These guys just are NOT good. Walton was let go by two teams. Jerry was let go. Brown was let go. Those teams had ZERO interest in re-signing them.
How weak was J. Martin that he could be bullied by Jerry?
But seriously, Eric, what you are seeing is an affirmation of what you, me and many others here have been saying for going on 3 years: The OL sucks. And the players that Reese has chosen to replenish the outgoing SB OLs have one thing in common: they are all soft, finesse types. None are physically imposing maulers. They are smaller and weaker than the opponents, which is why they wear down in the 2nd half of games. George Young would be appalled.
Teams are adjusting to the Giants OL from a physical stand point much like a boxer adjusts during a fight.
I have thought Coughlin's tenure should have been over a year or two ago, but the crap he has been given (or helped serve up himself) has accelerated the final chapters.
And I don't know why you stop at ZJerry and Walton, maybe because you've only reached the third quarter, but Brewer is every bit as bad; he may have "left tackle feet", another of the incredibly stupid, short-sighted Jerry Reeseisms in the self-congratulatory bullspit in the days after the draft, but the rest of his body has lead weights tied to his arms, thighs, torso, etc. He is immobile; he's even slow to get to the opposing DL pileup on Eli after letting the LDE or LDT through his turnstile.
How he survived on this team's roster for three years (is it four now?), indeed how many on the board crowed for his insertion because he was going to be a stud, is truly remarkable.
One thing I'll say for TC: he may favor vets over rookies, but if rookies can "play", he will not hesitate to dress and put them on the field. I don't buy it that he won't play rookies. That Brewer, Mosley, Hosley, etc. didn't was a tell as to how bad they are. Tom is not into self-sabotage that way, other ways maybe.
The St. Louis game is gonna be a bloodbath in the trenches. For us.
As bad as the Skins line is, they even let him go..That should have been thge clue..
Yep. I am sure everyone, shit I am sure ONE person said just that. Ignore the OL...fuck it...just draft skill players.
More than likely people said you don't necessarily have to draft OL in round one. But you knew that.
Walton is even paid decent money to play.. hes just awful
We need to start over.
hopefully we can see what richburg can do at C for the remainder of the year. it would be great if our major need comes down to a left guard. schwartz and pugh are question marks but i think we need to at least pencil them in next year as starters.
But, it's easy to blame Coughlin for this, and most of the posters on this site are dim bulbs, so that's usually what floods the board these days.
I noticed on a few of the sack's Walton gave up, it appeared that he was too embarrassed to look back at Eli or turn around and help him up. I can't imagine how bad it looks when they're all in the meeting room together.
We need to add one more legit starter, another young talent via the draft and we need a relatively healthy season from everyone.
I thought the change would do him good, but he really has not been good at all in pass protection
Walton started from day 1 and played up until he got hurt and was a good player. Unfortunately, almost 2 years out of football just seems too much.
Richburg is playing a new position - next year he needs to be the C. Schwartz needs to be the RG Pugh needs to be the RT and Beatty the LT. Find a competent G somewhere
If Nicks does not mess up his leg and fall from a top 10 WR to irrelevant, Martin is a Giant. Instead they had to go get a new No 1.
Many of the players we acquired suck. But teams acquire good players all the time. pay attention.
Stop fcuking around and draft OL.
I guess with the Schwartz injury, he may be active this week.
Other than drafting Martin over Beckham, I'm not sure what they could have done. There wasn't a load of free agent oline talent available. Taking a Free Agency rating site at random, in this case WalterFootball, we signed the number 2 rated Guard (the number 1 retired, the number 3 was Kevin Boothe, and the 4th was Jerry). Walton was a poor move at center but we needed to get a center in before the draft, I'm really surprised we didn't go for Evan Dietrich-Smith due to his familiarity but then he's really struggled for the Bucs as well
"Now I thinks it's helped a little bit when Mankins has been in there. He's graded out better when Mankins has been to his side. Overall, I think it's been disappointing. When you look at the run game, he's had some success when he has been uncovered, but when he plays against odd fronts, he struggles a bit more when he has someone over him.
"He can play better ball, but the play around him needs to be better, too. Ideally with two good guards in front of him, he'll do really good because he's good at helping out. His strength I think is pass blocking, but he's struggled there to this point as well."
The issue isn't so much what Reese did or didn't do this off-season, it's the state he let the oline get into in the first place.
If the player he's blocking isn't coming from directly in front of him, he can't block them.
It's remarkable in the most shitty, embarrassing way possible.
And Walton is fucking brutal. Tackles just run right through him. These guys are both horrid.
I guess with the Schwartz injury, he may be active this week.
Well, we found out yesterday why Brewer wasn't getting one. They are loaded with Pillsbury Dough Boys
I still have high hopes for him as the OC next year.
But he clearly has had a rough season
"But the Giants obviously see something that they like!"
but richburg being benched for ineffective play when we have nobody else has to be discouraging. we liked this guy enough that we had to have him at #43 overall so you'd hate to think he'd get benched for sucking after getting extended playing time. but there we are.
fwiw, i think his best position is C and like Schwartz at LG (and not RT or RG) this clueless staff has him playing the wrong spot
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these OLine aquistions were someone else's leftovers. If they were good enough they would have stuck there. Enough picking up someone else's garbage and passing it off as a solution.
That is dopey.
Many of the players we acquired suck. But teams acquire good players all the time. pay attention.
Ahh Randy, try reading the OP, we're speaking of the OLine and very specific players. In fact you covered this very subject in the 4:15 thread. Perhaps you're juggling of threads has your head spinning.
Jerry and Brown were both 1 year deals for about $750,000 each. That's Filene's Basement money. Walton hadn't played in two seasons and had been waived by the Redskins when we signed him.
If the player he's blocking isn't coming from directly in front of him, he can't block them.
It's remarkable in the most shitty, embarrassing way possible.
And Walton is fucking brutal. Tackles just run right through him. These guys are both horrid.
The knock on Jerry was that he was talented but very inconsistent. I don't really see the talent.
Beatty? Has looked better, but looks like shit half the time. Pugh looked better last year, and has regressed, Richburg was better earlier in the season than now, etc.
Give guys enough time on this roster, and they end up looking worse.
He's just not good.
Good point. Those other scrubs are here one day, gone the next. If Pugh and Richburg, and Schwartz to a lesser extent, don't work out, we're are fucked.
Beatty? Has looked better, but looks like shit half the time. Pugh looked better last year, and has regressed, Richburg was better earlier in the season than now, etc.
Give guys enough time on this roster, and they end up looking worse.
Walton is the surprising one. He was supposed to be the second best center in the draft after Pouncy, we gave him starter money but other teams are just putting a guy over his head and blowing him right the fuck up.
Get Moseley out of your heads. He flat out sucks and will be OOF next season along with Brewer.
- We crossed our fingers on Beatty. He's been better, but still ridiculously inconsistent.
- The fall-off with Pugh is almost difficult to fathom. I really just hope he was hiding an injury most of, if not the entire season.
- Schwartz never got going and never played at his original position. (He did look really bad in the preseason.)
- Walton and Richburg were supposed to man the center position. I remember reading on PFF before the season that Walton was really bad in Denver. He hasn't shown anything different so far. Richburg has been bad, but I will give him the "out of position" pass. The problem is when a guy looks that bad, it's hard to believe they'll look better elsewhere.
I honestly can't even recall what the plan was for the other guard spot.
For comparison's sake, the Patriots' starting OL consists of a first round pick, a 2nd round pick, a 4th round pick, and 2 undrafted rookie free agents from their practice squad.
I suppose they could both have lied, but it's more likely, based on recent track record, it being truth is not unlikely.
I suppose they could both have lied, but it's more likely, based on recent track record, it being truth is not unlikely.
I suppose they could both have lied, but it's more likely, based on recent track record, it being truth is not unlikely.
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are in the conversation for the worst OLs in the history of the franchise. Move over, Ian Allen! I cannot believe they were all on the same roster. Employing ANY of those three, even as backups, is a sign your OL sucks. We employed ALL three, and two are starters. It's historic.
In 2003, the year that cost Fassel his job, Accorsi thought it was cool to let Rosenthal and Whittle leave via free agency and enter the year with veterans Luke Petitgout, Chris Bober, and Ian Allen; and rookies David Diehl (5th round), Wayne Lucier (7th round) and Jeff Roehl (undrafted) protecting their franchise QB. And this year is beginning to look a lot like 2003 (believe it or not, the 2014 Giants are loaded with offensive talent compared to the 2003 squad).
I could be wrong, but I recall that the Giants offered Rosenthal the same (or more) money as Minnesota and he just chose to go there.
The issue with Richburg is that 1) He's a rookie and 2) people forget, he's playing out of position. I think he'll be a better center....he's just too small to play guard.
The bigger concerning issue here, is how can Reese/our pro-personnel department miss so badly on these guys? Jerry/Walton/Brown??
other good options.
Trading for Logan Mankins (Although not sure how he's done this year)
He can play guard but his better position, the one he played in college and was drafted to play, is center. He should be playing it the last 4 games. But expect stubborn Tom to stick with the less than mediocre veteran Walton.
He's had to play out of position as a rookie with the horrible Walton and Jerry to his right, Injuries and stubbornness is why he's not playing center. He had several good games early in the season. Walton hasn't had any good games.
There is a reason why the Giants can't throw more...even on short drop backs, the god damn line can't hold a block for 3 seconds. It's unbelievable. It just gets worse as the game progresses.
Unless we go OL in the first 2 rounds, which is not likely, it probably sets us back 2 years
How can James Brewer not be ready to be at least servicable by year 4, if he had any NFL talent to begin with? Answer is, he never had talent to begin with, which means something is off with our scouting. We have routinely fucked up drafting this key position.
Here are the lineman the Giants have drafted in recent years:
Richburg, Pugh, Herman, Mosley, McCants, Brewer, Petrus, Beatty.
IO'll give them Beatty, but come on. That is just terrible on the rest.
The St. Louis game is gonna be a bloodbath in the trenches. For us.
Let's check the tape..
Beatty and Walton literally taking vacation in the end zone. My goodness.
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are in the conversation for the worst OLs in the history of the franchise. Move over, Ian Allen! I cannot believe they were all on the same roster. Employing ANY of those three, even as backups, is a sign your OL sucks. We employed ALL three, and two are starters. It's historic.
In 2003, the year that cost Fassel his job, Accorsi thought it was cool to let Rosenthal and Whittle leave via free agency and enter the year with veterans Luke Petitgout, Chris Bober, and Ian Allen; and rookies David Diehl (5th round), Wayne Lucier (7th round) and Jeff Roehl (undrafted) protecting their franchise QB. And this year is beginning to look a lot like 2003 (believe it or not, the 2014 Giants are loaded with offensive talent compared to the 2003 squad).
Shockey, Toomer, and Barber vs OBJ and ...
I'll go for 2003 thanks.
BTW,Walton is just incredibly shit and it's unbelievable that this coaching staff and benched him and let Richburg play his natural position.
Have the Giant successfully executed any blitz' one quarter as effective as this one? Three guys converge on Eli in a heart beat.
There is a reason why the Giants can't throw more...even on short drop backs, the god damn line can't hold a block for 3 seconds. It's unbelievable. It just gets worse as the game progresses.
Eric I could see this crap in the Pre season. Walton has no vision, no movement or feet I saw a guy run right by him up the A gap in Pre season
The Eagles pulled our pants down in week 6 with the double A gap blitzes and we have been shit ever since
Walton is the worst center in the league
all this shit that TC is getting today is on the fcuking front office and that smug ass Reese .. Ross needs to be fired TODAY
Now I wish JC was at Guard or Center THIS Season
Jennings should have just fallen on the ball. He does that we win. same for our kicker.....do your job.
Walton was not developing well at Denver. His first two years were really bad, then he started playing a little better but got hurt early in his third season. They cut him. Shanahan signed him to play C for Washington after he recovered, but he never played for the 'Skins who cut him as soon as Shanahan was history. So he was a hope and a prayer as an acquisition.
Charles Brown was flat out horrible in New Orleans despite being a second round draft choice. They cut him because he was a turnstyle in the passing game.
All three of these guys really hadn't done squat with their former teams, which is why they were on the market, and that information was available to anyone who cared to do a little research.
To think that they were going to save the GIANTS OL is really insane.
Walton was not developing well at Denver. His first two years were really bad, then he started playing a little better but got hurt early in his third season. They cut him. Shanahan signed him to play C for Washington after he recovered, but he never played for the 'Skins who cut him as soon as Shanahan was history. So he was a hope and a prayer as an acquisition.
Charles Brown was flat out horrible in New Orleans despite being a second round draft choice. They cut him because he was a turnstyle in the passing game.
All three of these guys really hadn't done squat with their former teams, which is why they were on the market, and that information was available to anyone who cared to do a little research.
To think that they were going to save the GIANTS OL is really insane.
This. Walton did have some success in Denver, and I thought that the Redskins, who also needed OL help, cut him because he wasn't fully recovered from his injury. Jerry and Brown were bad with their respective teams, but the Giants either thought they could nonetheless make them effective players, or realized that even if they couldn't, that they would still be better than what they already had. If the latter, that is another damning indictment of Reese and Ross.
for that money they could've kept Kevin Boothe and played him at G and Richburg at center.
and then he made a junior high mistake of trying to pick the ball up in a scrum
but Walton and Beatty just were not playing. Beatty at least looks like he had hurt or his hand.
So much for the idea that the players have not quit. That replay is exhibit A in guys not playing hard.
and then he made a junior high mistake of trying to pick the ball up in a scrum
but Walton and Beatty just were not playing. Beatty at least looks like he had hurt or his hand.
So much for the idea that the players have not quit. That replay is exhibit A in guys not playing hard.
I just noticed this too in the video. Beatty blocks with one arm only and at the end of the play grabs at his wrist. I really think he was injured there which may help explain his hesitancy to dive/reach into the pile. Doesn't excuse all the other horribleness of that play however.
Reese acquired easy to dispose players to stem the tide. He certainly made his bed, but this offseason what else could he have done?
The list of free agents available was remarkably unimpressive. The only marquee player was Mack. The Browns were prepared to match virtually any offer and did. When Schwartz is a top 5 rated free agent across all free agents, that's telling.
I'm glad we didn't blow cap space in a weak class. We have money to spend in a class filled with skill position players. If we manage to land Iupati, for instance and field a line of Beatty, Iupati, Ritchberg, Schwartz, Pugh next year, it will be well worth the patience.
They are playing with fire with their "franchise" QB...both physically and mentally.
They were putrid, and its comical that as the ball is rolling back towards the fucking endzone walton is just standing there watching it roll. Then he leisurely jogs over and then does some more spectating as jennings is handing them a TD. I'm amazed eli even got up after that, he literally disappeared after 2 of the jag defenders busted through the line and pushed our O-line straight back into him.