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Theory - Giants have already planned for the future

Emil : 12/2/2014 8:13 pm
You can put me in the camp of being a big Coughlin fan, but one who thinks that it is time to move on simply because you don't rebuild with 68 year old coaches. However, I can't help but think the Giants already have their future plan in place. Here is my theory.

Simply put, it's about the Ben MacAdoo hire. After last year, the organization knew Coughlin wasn't going to be coaching much longer. He was 67, and its not like turning 68 has changed the calculation. Old is old and time is time. The Giants also knew the team needed major reworking, and likely knew it would be at least a 2 year process, which is why they preserved the ability to have cap room this coming offseason. Either way, 2013 or 2014, the Giants new they needed a post-Coughlin course of action based on the following:

1. A younger coach for longer term stability
2. One who had a solid relationship with Eli, who as Mara said is the Giants past, present, and future
3. Comfortable with how the Giants do business
4. Someone who had the blessing of Coughlin

Based on these assumptions (yes I admit assumptions) it couldn't be Gilbride. Gilbride was already too old, he had just presided over Eli's worst season in 9 years (his fault or not) and his offense was under intense fire. It wasn't going to be Fewell for obvious reasons, which we see now.

The organization looked at Coulghin's coaching tree and sadly found bare branches. Usher in Ben MacAdoo. A young, well regarded QB coach who seemed ready for the next step after working hand in hand with the most prolific passer in the NFL not named Manning or Brees. According to reports, he was a Coulghin hire and therefore has Coulghin's blessing and confidence. He has been a big part of Eli's rebound, and despite the terrible (TERRIBLE) OL play, the Giant's offense has shown flashes it can be a top offense in this league.

The problem...he's not ready yet. Do I think the Giants hired MacAdoo with the intent for him to replace Coulghin? Yes I do, but in 2016 or 2017 at the latest. I think the master plan was to have the Giants do no worse than last year and hopefully slightly better, with a return to the playoffs in 2015. This would allow Coughlin to retire gracefully and hand the reins to his apprentice who would have earned the favor of the franchise QB, and the blessing of Giants fans for resurrecting the offense and QB. Good plan, but like all plans, it did not survive first contact with the enemy (injuries in 2014).

With this theory in mind. I would not be surprised at all to see Mara keep Coughlin for another year, allow the Giants to get healthy and add talent on the OL and see if the plan will ultimately play out. I'm sure holes can be poked in this, but I think the organization had a plan this past offseason and don't see a need to change the head coach. I think they will chalk 2014 up to inept OL play, and injuries that crippled the defense first and now have destroyed what was left of the OL.

Call it a gut feeling, but I think this is the plan.
the coughlin coaching tree  
mattlawson : 12/2/2014 8:17 pm : link
coughlin the ball, mcadoo the blanket

McAdoo has not been a head coach at any level.  
RDJR : 12/2/2014 8:17 pm : link
I just don't see it for a franchise like the Giants. Hopefully I am correct.
and they all  
Bill in UT : 12/2/2014 8:18 pm : link
live happily ever after
RE: the coughlin coaching tree  
viggie : 12/2/2014 8:19 pm : link
In comment 12014758 mattlawson said:
Quote:
coughlin the ball, mcadoo the blanket



that made me laugh
RE: the coughlin coaching tree  
Emil : 12/2/2014 8:19 pm : link
In comment 12014758 mattlawson said:
Quote:
coughlin the ball, mcadoo the blanket


Hilarious!

It's Christmas, a time for miracles.
I basically said the same thing in a different thread today.  
arcarsenal : 12/2/2014 8:20 pm : link
I think the chance Coughlin stays another year or two is because they think McAdoo could be the next guy but don't think he's ready just yet.

Firing Coughlin means we lose McAdoo in all likelihood and I don't think the front office wants that.

We'll see.
RE: McAdoo has not been a head coach at any level.  
Emil : 12/2/2014 8:20 pm : link
In comment 12014759 RDJR said:
Quote:
I just don't see it for a franchise like the Giants. Hopefully I am correct.


I thought the same thing, but when I think of those comments about him being sort of a mini-Coughlin, I start to think it was one of the big reasons he was hired.
Good  
AcidTest : 12/2/2014 8:22 pm : link
post. Solid analysis.

But if that happens,

BBI
WILL
MELTDOWN.
I think there is something...  
Chris in Philly : 12/2/2014 8:23 pm : link
there. I think they expected to not compete this year and so I think there will be a lot less but changes than people think there may be...
RE: I basically said the same thing in a different thread today.  
Emil : 12/2/2014 8:23 pm : link
In comment 12014770 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I think the chance Coughlin stays another year or two is because they think McAdoo could be the next guy but don't think he's ready just yet.

Firing Coughlin means we lose McAdoo in all likelihood and I don't think the front office wants that.

We'll see.


Glad it's not just me, cause part of me thinks I'm nuts.

I think the Giants believe they can address the major problem areas in FA and draft an impact player. If the OL is improved in 2015 no reason this team can't compete for the NFC East title. The defense is going to take a few years in my opinion, but the offense is an OL away. Really a LG away.
RE: Good  
Emil : 12/2/2014 8:23 pm : link
In comment 12014774 AcidTest said:
Quote:
post. Solid analysis.

But if that happens,

BBI
WILL
MELTDOWN.


I think BBI would break the internet
I do think Fewell is gone.  
arcarsenal : 12/2/2014 8:27 pm : link
And that's the move that will be "see, we're making a change rather than accepting status quo"

It was KG last year, it will be Perry this year.

I have a feeling they think they can transition these crappy few years back into a good team without blowing everything up entirely at once.

I was starting to lean towards Coughlin being 100% gone but now I'm not so sure and it's because of McAdoo.
RE: I think there is something...  
BrettNYG10 : 12/2/2014 8:29 pm : link
In comment 12014776 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
there. I think they expected to not compete this year and so I think there will be a lot less but changes than people think there may be...


I think you're right and suspect TC will be back.
Luckily, no one who's already better than us  
Bill in UT : 12/2/2014 8:31 pm : link
is going to come up with 2 good players in the offseason. So we should move up quite a bit with a good #1 and a FA
Ill be the contrairian here then  
natefit : 12/2/2014 8:33 pm : link
I think TC goes along with Mac and PF. Reese stays and so does Eli.
I don't want to understate the point  
Emil : 12/2/2014 8:34 pm : link
but despite the record, this team is not far off from being competitive.

Fix the OL, protect Eli and watch the offense succeed.

Find a pass rush and another LB and watch the defense not blow leads!
I agree  
Servo : 12/2/2014 8:34 pm : link
that this is likely the case and I am fine with it. Like many teams, they viewed McAdoo as a rising commodity. (Remember, McAdoo even had a head coaching interview last year.)

I am okay with it because it would be ridiculous to judge McAdoo based on this season, given both the injury situation and the lack of NFL-caliber offensive line talent. In fact, his system has shown plenty of promise in those instances where the OL didn't collapse.

If this is true then I'm glad my team has an actual succession plan in place rather than just firing people for the sake of shakeup and change.
what a great rhyme, Emil.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/2/2014 8:34 pm : link
.
Good post. I agree.  
bceagle05 : 12/2/2014 8:50 pm : link
If there's any indecision, I think Coughlin stays. Just look at some of those quotes in Ralph's story today - "Coughlin didn't forget how to coach," etc. if any of the sentiment exists up top, he's in good shape. John Mara HAS to know they've given him nothing. He's watching the same thing we're watching.
RE: McAdoo has not been a head coach at any level.  
81_Great_Dane : 12/2/2014 9:01 pm : link
In comment 12014759 RDJR said:
Quote:
I just don't see it for a franchise like the Giants. Hopefully I am correct.
That hasn't been essential in the past, though they've had mixed results. (Obviously, these choices were made by the previous generation of Maras. They matter because the team is still under Mara ownership, and the team's management style has been pretty consistent. Though with John Mara in charge, who knows?.)

Allie Sherman - HC in CFL before Giants*
Alex Webster - no HC experience when hired*
Bill Arnsparger - no HC experience when hired
John McVay - HC in HS and college before Giants*
Ray Perkins - no HC experience when hired
Bill Parcells - 1 yr HC at Air Force prior to Giants*
R** H*****y - no prior HC experience*
Dan Reeves - longtime Broncos HC
Jim Fassel - no HC experience prior to Giants*
Tom Coughlin - pro and college HC prior to Giants*

* Giants ties previous to being hired as HC

If the Mara/Tisch/Reese regime follows past trends, previous experience with the Giants is a bigger factor than previous HC experience. I suspect that will be less true for the younger Mr. Mara.

Also note that the only HCs the Giants have hired from the defensive side in the last 50 years were Arnsparger and Parcells, and Parcells was sort of an accident. I also suspect that the younger Mr. Mara won't have the same preference for offense, though the trend around the league is that more successful heac coaches are coming from offense than defense.
I don't think McAdoo was not brought in to replace Coughlin  
GeofromNJ : 12/2/2014 9:12 pm : link
I think he was brought in to teach and coach a quick hit offense because Mara (and Coughlin, perhaps) understood that the Giants offensive line was not capable of giving Manning time to execute Gibride's deep pass offense. If Coughlin is fired after this season, I doubt Mara will elevate McAdoo, or even keep him. His offense has not been impressive and he's done nothing to demonstrate head coaching ability.

If Coughlin is fired, my guess is Reese stays and Mara and Reese collectively decide on a new head coach, letting the new head coach select his assistants.
I'd love to know who's offense is going to "impress" anyone..  
arcarsenal : 12/2/2014 9:15 pm : link
...with an OL this bad.

How do you run any sort of offense when the QB gets absolutely annihilated every single time he drops back to pass?
Think your giving the Giants too much credit  
ghost718 : 12/2/2014 9:19 pm : link
All I see is a front office trying to squeeze another Super Bowl out of Eli Manning.Of course,he's gotta do the majority of the work,because we like to play Pin The Tail on the Draft Board in April.
If Mangini doesn't replace Harbaugh  
Giants2012 : 12/2/2014 9:22 pm : link
I wonder if he is the right fit for the Giants. Until that stupid owner brought in Favre, that team was on the rise.
Emil, nice post  
ColHowPepper : 12/2/2014 9:24 pm : link
and I agree with AT that there would be a meltdown.

The problems:

1) "Glad it's not just me, cause part of me thinks I'm nuts.

I think the Giants believe they can address the major problem areas in FA and draft an impact player. If the OL is improved in 2015 no reason this team can't compete for the NFC East title. The defense is going to take a few years in my opinion, but the offense is an OL away. Really a LG away."

We've been saying this toward the end of each of the past three seasons, and the result is 3 - 9 heading toward 3 - 13. As JonC suggests, correctly imo, this would again demonstrate that this FO has zero ability to self-scout and analyze the problems, because the same ol' shit keeps getting worse with this cast of characters.

2) It's difficult to credit the FO with any effective long-range plan: re-upping TC year by year, force a coordinator change here, force a coordinator change there, and the dead wood stays put

3) I don't think it's my imagination that in most of TC's recent post-game pressers he has thrown not-so-veiled jabs at the offensive play calling, whether down and distance, run vs. pass or v.v. I don't get the feeling that he's so solidly in BMc's corner, but maybe that is just a reflection of a frustrated coach under fire.

I like McAdoo and you see some of his creativity, notwithstanding the abysmal OL; I think what your assessment has going for it most of all is that a coaching change probably can't be effected while leaving McAdoo in place. The play I like best on Sunday was, after they had run OBJ on an end around with the pitch from Eli, a series or two later, the little fake into the line, the fake pitch to OBJ again running from his spot wide or slot right, but then throwing a short screen in the middle, behind LOS.

I think the problems are more on Reese's watch, and leaving this FO team in place with TC would be hard to take, because they've shown zero ability to fix the problems. No playoffs in six of seven years?


allie sherman....ray handley.....  
thrunthrublue : 12/2/2014 9:25 pm : link
they both hit all the branches on that tree, on the way down.
Your Theory is Plausible  
clatterbuck : 12/2/2014 9:27 pm : link
and I actually hope it proves out.
If Tom Coughlin stays for another year  
DaveW : 12/2/2014 9:32 pm : link
There will have to be one or more sacrificial lambs. My guess is Fewell and Ross and maybe Flaherty. Yes this OL is a box of rocks, but he should have been able to make them play a little better than they are.
Maybe its different posters  
natefit : 12/2/2014 9:35 pm : link
but there is a lot more TC love now than there was on Sunday evening. One thing is for sure: they wont let Reese go and keep TC. So what many are advocating is staying the course other than PF. Im not one of them: Keep doing what youre doing and youll keep getting what youre getting...
RE: I'd love to know who's offense is going to  
GeofromNJ : 12/2/2014 9:35 pm : link
In comment 12014872 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
...with an OL this bad.

How do you run any sort of offense when the QB gets absolutely annihilated every single time he drops back to pass?
The whole point of bringing in McAdoo was so that the offense would be effective with a porous offensive line. If the offensive line were any good, Gilbride would still be the offensive coordinator.
I think its one more year with Coughlin, then Macadoo  
Shockwave : 12/2/2014 9:37 pm : link
Takes over. The offensive scheme was fixed and it shows as everyone has seen, but the OL was not.

1. Coughlin will stay
2 Fewell will get fired as a condition of Coughlin staying
3. If offensive progresses in 2015 and we still blow it because of the defense or whatever other reasons, Coughlin is fired and Macadoo takes over.
RE: RE: I'd love to know who's offense is going to  
arcarsenal : 12/2/2014 9:38 pm : link
In comment 12014922 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
In comment 12014872 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


...with an OL this bad.

How do you run any sort of offense when the QB gets absolutely annihilated every single time he drops back to pass?

The whole point of bringing in McAdoo was so that the offense would be effective with a porous offensive line. If the offensive line were any good, Gilbride would still be the offensive coordinator.


I don't think the "point" of bringing in any OC is to succeed with a shitty OL. No team plans to have a shitty OL.

They certainly wanted to introduce some new concepts and felt what we were doing ran stale but there's no possible way of fielding a successful offense with an OL this bad and a QB with no mobility. I think that's pretty obvious.
Agree with earlier statements also about the defense  
Shockwave : 12/2/2014 9:40 pm : link
It will take at least 2-3 years to rebuild. But in this league it really doesn't matter anymore, half the league can light you up no matter how good your defense is, unless it's like tr 2013 Seahawks.

And what about Reese?  
hudson : 12/2/2014 9:56 pm : link
Does he survive? Does the whole front office?

Who is responsible for this talent mess?
Why is it a team like the Stillerz can stay competitive while the Giants can't?
What has McAdoo done  
oldutican : 12/2/2014 10:04 pm : link
to make him the heir apparent? Hard for me to believe they can't get better HC this off season.
RE: RE: RE: I'd love to know who's offense is going to  
HomerJones45 : 12/2/2014 10:16 pm : link
In comment 12014930 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 12014922 GeofromNJ said:


Quote:


In comment 12014872 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


...with an OL this bad.

How do you run any sort of offense when the QB gets absolutely annihilated every single time he drops back to pass?

The whole point of bringing in McAdoo was so that the offense would be effective with a porous offensive line. If the offensive line were any good, Gilbride would still be the offensive coordinator.



I don't think the "point" of bringing in any OC is to succeed with a shitty OL. No team plans to have a shitty OL.

They certainly wanted to introduce some new concepts and felt what we were doing ran stale but there's no possible way of fielding a successful offense with an OL this bad and a QB with no mobility. I think that's pretty obvious.
good post
I don't know about McAdoo being groomed,  
Go Terps : 12/2/2014 11:18 pm : link
but I do believe Coughlin will be retained. I think that decision was made before the first game this season.

I certainly don't think that any decisions could possibly be made based on anything since the game in Dallas. By the end of that game it was clear the season was over, and it was clear what this team is.
RE: the coughlin coaching tree  
giantgiantfan : 12/2/2014 11:39 pm : link
In comment 12014758 mattlawson said:
Quote:
coughlin the ball, mcadoo the blanket



this gave me a chuckle, thanks.
This may be true, but it's going to be a hard sell  
Section331 : 12/3/2014 8:26 am : link
to a fanbase promised wholesale changes by John Mara if things didn't improve this year.

I think a lot of you are overstating how the Giants FO thinks of McAdoo. We have no idea if the FO had any input into McAdoo's hiring, and if he was solely TC's guy, they're both gone.
I think the FO had just as much to do with McAdoo as Coughlin did.  
arcarsenal : 12/3/2014 8:28 am : link
If not more.

I also don't recall Mara flat out claiming there would be "wholesale changes" out in public if we had another bad year.

The changes will be that Fewell gets fired and hopefully Quinn does as well.
He might not have used that exact set of words  
jcn56 : 12/3/2014 8:38 am : link
but he was pretty clear that there were expectations for this season and that there'd be more change if we didn't improve.

Mara's statement last year seemed to be pointed directly at the coaching staff. He went so far as to say Reese was safe and that he trusts him, but never said as much about the coaching staff. I thought that was both unfair and unusual at the time, because Reese didn't need the strong vote of confidence (even if people are out in the streets protesting, GMs don't get canned as often as coaches) and because I didn't think the problem was anywhere near one sided either.

Instead - we canned half the coaching staff (Pope, Ingram, Gilbride "retired") and put the rest on watch. I don't think Mara expected the step backwards on defense, where we were clearly playing over our heads thanks to a softer schedule in the second half of last season.

I would agree with Emil that they started to make a move towards the future last year (and why Pope and Ingram were summarily dismissed), but it seems like the Giants are trying to approach a coaching change like getting into a pool, slowly getting wet to avoid shock. I don't think that's going to work.
I think your assumption  
adcliff : 12/3/2014 8:40 am : link
only works if the front office picked McAdoo.
I believe that Tom Coughlin wanted McAdoo.
I've heard indirectly TC will return  
JonC : 12/3/2014 8:44 am : link
and that Spags is a target.
McAdoo being all Coughlin's choice makes little sense to me.  
arcarsenal : 12/3/2014 8:45 am : link
If he had so much say to begin with, I don't think Gilbride would have "retired".
RE: I think your assumption  
jcn56 : 12/3/2014 8:46 am : link
In comment 12015219 adcliff said:
Quote:
only works if the front office picked McAdoo.
I believe that Tom Coughlin wanted McAdoo.


Another thing to consider is that TC is more than just the coach here. I don't think he's disconnected in the same way that Fassel was. It's entirely possible that the FO (Reese and ultimately, Mara) had to be onboard with the selection, gave TC a list, and let TC make the final decision. That way, both effectively picked him.
RE: I've heard indirectly TC will return  
Curtis in VA : 12/3/2014 8:47 am : link
In comment 12015222 JonC said:
Quote:
and that Spags is a target.


WOW, really?? Thats surprising. How do you feel about the Spags part? I'm actually fine with Coughlin returning, but Spags I'm on the fence about. Hopefully they give him the horses along the DL.
Stop right there:  
mrvax : 12/3/2014 8:49 am : link
Quote:
You can put me in the camp of being a big Coughlin fan, but one who thinks that it is time to move on simply because you don't rebuild with 68 year old coaches.


Why not? If the guy has no intention to retire very soon and is in great physical shape, why would one toss all those precious year of NFL experience out the window. It makes no sense.

I'm OK with moving on from Coughlin but to cite his age and determine he can't help rebuild a team is patently age discrimination.
RE: I've heard indirectly TC will return  
Les in TO : 12/3/2014 9:09 am : link
In comment 12015222 JonC said:
Quote:
and that Spags is a target.


disappointed if true (and you are usually right). instead of looking to the future, they look to the past and go with something that worked 6-7 years ago thinking that the results will be the same. maybe the defense shows different looks and takes a more high risk/high reward approach, but the fundamental rot that has set in on this team will not go away. no outside the box thinking.
I'd also be disappointed if it is Spags  
jcn56 : 12/3/2014 9:13 am : link
No offense to Spags, but he hasn't exactly lit it up since (although he's had very little to work with since as well). Not sure how much of his success was him versus the superior talent we had on D during those years.
Curtis  
JonC : 12/3/2014 9:14 am : link
My instinct is much like Les'. Turning back the clock works infrequently, and it gives the impression the overall mindset of this regime isn't thinking bigger picture, it's thinking job protection.
RE: I'd also be disappointed if it is Spags  
mrvax : 12/3/2014 9:17 am : link
In comment 12015266 jcn56 said:
Quote:
No offense to Spags, but he hasn't exactly lit it up since (although he's had very little to work with since as well). Not sure how much of his success was him versus the superior talent we had on D during those years.


In Spags favor, he is/was a student of Jim Johnson who was a very successful defensive mind. Truth be told, I'd rather Spags next year then run with Fewell one more time.
RE: I've heard indirectly TC will return  
Exit 172 : 12/3/2014 9:19 am : link
In comment 12015222 JonC said:
Quote:
and that Spags is a target.


You have sources inside NYG?
Whoops.  
Exit 172 : 12/3/2014 9:20 am : link
I thought "indirectly" was "directly."
RE: RE: I'd also be disappointed if it is Spags  
jcn56 : 12/3/2014 9:25 am : link
In comment 12015275 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 12015266 jcn56 said:


Quote:


No offense to Spags, but he hasn't exactly lit it up since (although he's had very little to work with since as well). Not sure how much of his success was him versus the superior talent we had on D during those years.



In Spags favor, he is/was a student of Jim Johnson who was a very successful defensive mind. Truth be told, I'd rather Spags next year then run with Fewell one more time.


The problem is, Spags is one piece. The coaching staff is comprised of quite a few people - position coaches, QA assistants, etc. The failure that we've seen the past couple of years, if it's in part attributable to coaching, is severe enough that thinking you can swap out one or two, here or there, is going to make a big difference.

That seems to be the same approach they took with the offensive line and other problem areas. Tweaks. We're 3-10, the time to tweak is over.
Retaining this coaching staff  
natefit : 12/3/2014 9:31 am : link
will set this franchise back 10 years. Dont fear the future. The time for change is now.
How does Spags solve the inconsistency,  
drkenneth : 12/3/2014 9:32 am : link
the blow-out losses, etc..
RE: I've heard indirectly TC will return  
cosmicj : 12/3/2014 9:35 am : link
In comment 12015222 JonC said:
Quote:
and that Spags is a target.


I've been wondering whether that's the plan. I would welcome it.
You could just  
Homersimpson : 12/3/2014 9:36 am : link
as easily say that firing Coughlin and making the wrong hire would set the franchise back 10 years, too. You don't know more than anyone else what the future holds. It's not a black and white decision, and it's certainly not as simple as saying retaining (or firing) Coughlin will lead to X.
RE: RE: RE: I'd also be disappointed if it is Spags  
Les in TO : 12/3/2014 9:38 am : link
In comment 12015290 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12015275 mrvax said:


Quote:


In comment 12015266 jcn56 said:


Quote:


No offense to Spags, but he hasn't exactly lit it up since (although he's had very little to work with since as well). Not sure how much of his success was him versus the superior talent we had on D during those years.



In Spags favor, he is/was a student of Jim Johnson who was a very successful defensive mind. Truth be told, I'd rather Spags next year then run with Fewell one more time.



The problem is, Spags is one piece. The coaching staff is comprised of quite a few people - position coaches, QA assistants, etc. The failure that we've seen the past couple of years, if it's in part attributable to coaching, is severe enough that thinking you can swap out one or two, here or there, is going to make a big difference.

That seems to be the same approach they took with the offensive line and other problem areas. Tweaks. We're 3-10, the time to tweak is over.


I prefer spags' approach from 2007-2008 which was more blitz heavy and risk-taking than fewell which was more focused on preventing big plays and capitalizing on mistakes (relying on the front 4 to generate pressure). so i see that replacement as a positive, assuming coughlin will allow spags to exert full control over the defensive philosophy and that spags breathes some life into the D. however, i also agree that there are probably position coaches that need to go and that this is tweaking/window dressing and delaying the inevitable by another season.

the main positive i can see is that there would be continuity on offense which will be more comfortable with the WCO/McAdoo style. on the downside, i expect we will see the same negative trends next season that we have for the last several years (high number of turnovers, leading the league in injuries, playing from behind frequently and going into a conservative shell with the lead/not stepping on opponent's necks, failing to adjust playcalling to developments in the game).
Its a board  
natefit : 12/3/2014 9:38 am : link
where fans post their opinions Homer. Thats mine.
I'm really OK with starting over with a new coaching staff  
JFIB : 12/3/2014 9:39 am : link
Week after week our players appear terribly un prepared. They make the same correctable mistakes game after game. This staff has also failed to develop any of our later round picks into even serviceable back ups. I just think we need a new staff filled with smart hungry coaches who have energy and enthusiasm.
Spags  
cosmicj : 12/3/2014 9:39 am : link
Despite his overall record, I liked what I saw of his defensive game planning with the Rams. After getting fired in St Louis, he has been working for what we know are two top shelf (on the field, not ethically) NFL franchises, the Saints and the Ravens. I think he would be a very good DC hire and would immediately upgrade the defensive coaching.
Team is in decline  
aquidneck : 12/3/2014 9:40 am : link
And has been for three consecutive years.

Reasonable to assume we're on the wrong path and will continue to flounder without change.

Status quo sends message to everybody: no accountability here. No reason to change. Stay the course. OK with us if we miss the playoffs, finish 7-9, 3-13. Whatever.
The problem with blowing the whole org up  
cosmicj : 12/3/2014 9:44 am : link
is that you have three very precious commodities helming the Giants right now:

1) A high-quality QB
2) A leading NFL coach
3) One of the best college talent pickers in the business (Reese)

You step back from this disastrous 2014 and you ask, is this really a situation that you want to blow up or do you continue to overhaul the FO and coordinators/position coaches? Whatever we think, it's reasonable to conclude that continued gradual change is the better alternative.
we're gradualky becoming  
aquidneck : 12/3/2014 9:46 am : link
A worse and worse football team.

Year's of steady decline.

Not a good thing I think.
attaching to cosmic's post  
JonC : 12/3/2014 9:51 am : link
I agree with don't fear change when deciding the next phase for the franchise, but Mara is certainly reviewing the landscape and asking himself who inspires confidence in replacing Coughlin. It's an inherent gamble I don't envy as this franchise's on-field product is teetering on the brink.

Cowher? He's been collecting TV paychecks for 7-8 years. Mara and Reese are trying to transition and give a united, well-sorted front. I hope it comes to fruition.
One other thought connecting Emil and JonC's comments  
cosmicj : 12/3/2014 9:57 am : link
If you retain Coughlin and hire Spags as DC, you have potentially a close-to-permanent DC in place. If Spags returns here, he isn't going anywhere because he isn't getting another HC gig. This is potentially like Dick LeBeau - and we all know what the Maras think of the Steelers' organizational planning.

Spags coaches the defense, McAdoo runs the offense and ascends to the HC position when the time is right. Ownership turns its sights on the FO, where there is a lot of work to do (LOL). That positions the franchise for system continuity with able leadership, if McAdoo is the goods. Aiming for such continuity, given how it ties into talent acquisition, ain't a dumb decision.
RE: The problem with blowing the whole org up  
jcn56 : 12/3/2014 9:57 am : link
In comment 12015323 cosmicj said:
Quote:
is that you have three very precious commodities helming the Giants right now:

1) A high-quality QB
2) A leading NFL coach
3) One of the best college talent pickers in the business (Reese)

You step back from this disastrous 2014 and you ask, is this really a situation that you want to blow up or do you continue to overhaul the FO and coordinators/position coaches? Whatever we think, it's reasonable to conclude that continued gradual change is the better alternative.


Somewhere between 2 and 3 (either one, the other or both) there's a problem. We wouldn't be where we are right now if there wasn't. I'm not necessarily saying we have to blow the whole thing up, but going in thinking those are all the case when the results say otherwise is not going to bode well for us.
Here's the problem as I see it  
blueblood'11 : 12/3/2014 10:03 am : link
Your take is interesting and there could be a lot of merit to it. However, I see it Coughlin is the white elepahant in the room. I did not for the life of me think he went into hiring McAdoo as his eventual replacement.

Coughlin will have to be fired or not given another contract after this one runs out. And I don't think that Mara relishes the thought of him being a lame duck coach and niether does Tom.

He thinks he can coach forever and that is going to be the problem that Mara and Tisch will have to face once this season is over. I do not think it will be as simple as what you theorized. They made things more complicated by forcing Gilbride out and hiring McAdoo.
cosmicj hit on what I think is the crux of the entire situation  
Go Terps : 12/3/2014 10:05 am : link
The point of inflection in this portion of the franchise's history isn't going to be the moment Coughlin leaves it. The beginning and ending points of this era are going to be defined by when Eli Manning leaves. That date is when you blow things up. That is when you completely start over.

I believe this team bottomed out in 2013 and is on the ascendancy...Eli said as much to Francesa this week. The quality of football on the offensive side is unquestionably better. The defense must be fixed, but the offensive repairs began months ago.

I don't see this as a team on the edge of total collapse.
jcn  
cosmicj : 12/3/2014 10:08 am : link
I knew that 3rd assumption about Reese was going to draw fire so let me clarify. Reese's performance in overall squad management is certainly lacking. But what I also see is top shelf talent evaluation of college prospects over the course of his career, based on his public statements and info about his influence on selections. He has whiffed on some decisions (2012 was not a success, the Marvin Austin blunder) but all GMs do this. As I keep writing on BBI, you cannot let a talent picker with Reese's ability go. But obviously organizational changes need to be made, because the current talent is disastrously depleted.
RE: jcn  
jcn56 : 12/3/2014 10:13 am : link
In comment 12015374 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I knew that 3rd assumption about Reese was going to draw fire so let me clarify. Reese's performance in overall squad management is certainly lacking. But what I also see is top shelf talent evaluation of college prospects over the course of his career, based on his public statements and info about his influence on selections. He has whiffed on some decisions (2012 was not a success, the Marvin Austin blunder) but all GMs do this. As I keep writing on BBI, you cannot let a talent picker with Reese's ability go. But obviously organizational changes need to be made, because the current talent is disastrously depleted.


I don't disagree. I would be reluctant to let Reese go at this point, despite his part in the current roster situation. I do think he's better suited in his previous role, and that part of our roster decay is attributable to his choice of Marc Ross to fill his previous role.

Thing is - with all the caveats, and even with keeping Reese, changes need to happen there. Possibly big changes, beyond just firing Ross (maybe it's time we took a few of the scouts out back, or hired some new ones to augment the existing staff, etc.).

There's just too much wrong right now, and it's been that way for too long, to assume that we can have a completely smooth transition. That's for high functioning organizations, of which we're not a member at this point in time.
RE: The problem with blowing the whole org up  
Section331 : 12/3/2014 10:14 am : link
In comment 12015323 cosmicj said:
Quote:
is that you have three very precious commodities helming the Giants right now:

1) A high-quality QB
2) A leading NFL coach
3) One of the best college talent pickers in the business (Reese)


If we have all of those things, why do we suck so badly? Something's awry. I don't see how you come off of a 3 or 4 win season, and having made the playoffs once in 6 years, and make only cosmetic asst coach changes.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/3/2014 10:15 am : link
I'd welcome Spags back and hope for the best if that were the call but I'd rather look in another direction.

Strahan, Tuck and Osi aren't here anymore. Nor are Pierce or Mitchell. And for all the talk about how how reliant Fewell is on his front 4, the front 4 (7) was exactly how we won a Super Bowl with Spags.

Whoever comes in here is going to have to hope Reese can restock the defensive talent quickly because there's not a lot to work with here and I don't think scheming can cover it all up.
Cosmicj  
Go Terps : 12/3/2014 10:15 am : link
The current talent is depleted, but there is some evidence that the correction process has already begun. The 2013-2014 drafts look, at this early stage, far better than any of the drafts since 2007.

It's a possibility you don't often see mentioned on BBI...the necessary front office adjustments (with regards to the draft) may have already been made following the 2012 season. Draft classes are like wines though...you've got to wait a while before they taste good.

I think we could be drinking the last bottles from the shitty 2008-2012 grapes.
RE: Cosmicj  
jcn56 : 12/3/2014 10:19 am : link
In comment 12015390 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The current talent is depleted, but there is some evidence that the correction process has already begun. The 2013-2014 drafts look, at this early stage, far better than any of the drafts since 2007.

It's a possibility you don't often see mentioned on BBI...the necessary front office adjustments (with regards to the draft) may have already been made following the 2012 season. Draft classes are like wines though...you've got to wait a while before they taste good.

I think we could be drinking the last bottles from the shitty 2008-2012 grapes.


That's just the draft, someone needs to be taken to task for the FA acquisitions and cap management, both of which need to step up their game if we're ever going to turn this thing around.
My position is closer to jcn's regarding the culture at the top  
JonC : 12/3/2014 10:21 am : link
but hope the arrow is indeed pointing up like Terps' position.
jcn  
Go Terps : 12/3/2014 10:30 am : link
All fair points. I have to believe however that our FA processes wee strained by having to make up for so much poor drafting. When the only starters we have from the 2008-2012 drafts are Beatty, JPP, Amukamara, Williams, and Randle...just an abysmal return that places management in a position of weakness and desperation in FA.

RE: jcn  
jcn56 : 12/3/2014 10:31 am : link
In comment 12015419 Go Terps said:
Quote:
All fair points. I have to believe however that our FA processes wee strained by having to make up for so much poor drafting. When the only starters we have from the 2008-2012 drafts are Beatty, JPP, Amukamara, Williams, and Randle...just an abysmal return that places management in a position of weakness and desperation in FA.


I think that's a part, but it's not just that. Winning the SBs complicated matters somewhat, since retaining your talent becomes more expensive.

I think the OL situation is curious at best, retaining Snee last year for $7m and then retaining him for this year when it was pretty clear he was done. Not sure whether that's a complication of Snee being TC's son-in-law, a function of the dearth of talent on the OL, or a mix.
Terps' theory is interesting  
cosmicj : 12/3/2014 1:04 pm : link
So a smug and self-satisfied Giants FO make a mess of the 2012 draft (albeit with a saavy FA signing in Martellus), then the team shows all the signs of falling apart in the later part of the 2012 season, Reese cottons on immediately, and after some self-criticism, improves his own performance and that of his staff. It's a coherent hypothesis. Any confirming or disconfirming evidence aside from the 2013 and 2014 drafts?

Tom Coughlin  
natefit : 12/3/2014 2:18 pm : link
is no longer a "leading NFL coach." The #'s speak for themselves.
Agree with the Basics, But  
Percy : 12/3/2014 4:22 pm : link
I'd be replacing Reese right away with the first task of the new GM being straightening out the scouting/player evaluation end of things right away, second task being getting a new DC and getting TC to accept that, and then just watching over things next season with a view to making any other needed changes later -- TC definitely goes and McAdoo either makes it for HC by then or not.
We could be a playoff team NEXT YEAR with some  
SGMen : 12/3/2014 8:38 pm : link
great off-season moves in free agency and the draft.

We also need for the wounded to come back and be 100% - especially Cruz.

I see an OL of Beatty, Schwartz, Richburg, UFA, Pugh (those five likely, though positions may switch). I see our starting three wideout being superb if Cruz returns to form. TE should be better with Donnell in year 2 and Robinson in year 4 as I believer A. Robinson will step up. I just have that feeling and pray I am right cause he has the physical tools.

As for defense, a complete overhaul of the DL is needed along with a LB to replace Williams and a FS who can cover the middle of the field.

So I think we'll make some free agent moves, nothing overly flashy, but we clearly need a starting OL in UFA and a starting DL.
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