You can put me in the camp of being a big Coughlin fan, but one who thinks that it is time to move on simply because you don't rebuild with 68 year old coaches. However, I can't help but think the Giants already have their future plan in place. Here is my theory.
Simply put, it's about the Ben MacAdoo hire. After last year, the organization knew Coughlin wasn't going to be coaching much longer. He was 67, and its not like turning 68 has changed the calculation. Old is old and time is time. The Giants also knew the team needed major reworking, and likely knew it would be at least a 2 year process, which is why they preserved the ability to have cap room this coming offseason. Either way, 2013 or 2014, the Giants new they needed a post-Coughlin course of action based on the following:
1. A younger coach for longer term stability
2. One who had a solid relationship with Eli, who as Mara said is the Giants past, present, and future
3. Comfortable with how the Giants do business
4. Someone who had the blessing of Coughlin
Based on these assumptions (yes I admit assumptions) it couldn't be Gilbride. Gilbride was already too old, he had just presided over Eli's worst season in 9 years (his fault or not) and his offense was under intense fire. It wasn't going to be Fewell for obvious reasons, which we see now.
The organization looked at Coulghin's coaching tree and sadly found bare branches. Usher in Ben MacAdoo. A young, well regarded QB coach who seemed ready for the next step after working hand in hand with the most prolific passer in the NFL not named Manning or Brees. According to reports, he was a Coulghin hire and therefore has Coulghin's blessing and confidence. He has been a big part of Eli's rebound, and despite the terrible (TERRIBLE) OL play, the Giant's offense has shown flashes it can be a top offense in this league.
The problem...he's not ready yet. Do I think the Giants hired MacAdoo with the intent for him to replace Coulghin? Yes I do, but in 2016 or 2017 at the latest. I think the master plan was to have the Giants do no worse than last year and hopefully slightly better, with a return to the playoffs in 2015. This would allow Coughlin to retire gracefully and hand the reins to his apprentice who would have earned the favor of the franchise QB, and the blessing of Giants fans for resurrecting the offense and QB. Good plan, but like all plans, it did not survive first contact with the enemy (injuries in 2014).
With this theory in mind. I would not be surprised at all to see Mara keep Coughlin for another year, allow the Giants to get healthy and add talent on the OL and see if the plan will ultimately play out. I'm sure holes can be poked in this, but I think the organization had a plan this past offseason and don't see a need to change the head coach. I think they will chalk 2014 up to inept OL play, and injuries that crippled the defense first and now have destroyed what was left of the OL.
Call it a gut feeling, but I think this is the plan.
that made me laugh
Hilarious!
It's Christmas, a time for miracles.
Firing Coughlin means we lose McAdoo in all likelihood and I don't think the front office wants that.
We'll see.
I thought the same thing, but when I think of those comments about him being sort of a mini-Coughlin, I start to think it was one of the big reasons he was hired.
But if that happens,
BBI
WILL
MELTDOWN.
Firing Coughlin means we lose McAdoo in all likelihood and I don't think the front office wants that.
We'll see.
Glad it's not just me, cause part of me thinks I'm nuts.
I think the Giants believe they can address the major problem areas in FA and draft an impact player. If the OL is improved in 2015 no reason this team can't compete for the NFC East title. The defense is going to take a few years in my opinion, but the offense is an OL away. Really a LG away.
But if that happens,
BBI
WILL
MELTDOWN.
I think BBI would break the internet
It was KG last year, it will be Perry this year.
I have a feeling they think they can transition these crappy few years back into a good team without blowing everything up entirely at once.
I was starting to lean towards Coughlin being 100% gone but now I'm not so sure and it's because of McAdoo.
I think you're right and suspect TC will be back.
Fix the OL, protect Eli and watch the offense succeed.
Find a pass rush and another LB and watch the defense not blow leads!
I am okay with it because it would be ridiculous to judge McAdoo based on this season, given both the injury situation and the lack of NFL-caliber offensive line talent. In fact, his system has shown plenty of promise in those instances where the OL didn't collapse.
If this is true then I'm glad my team has an actual succession plan in place rather than just firing people for the sake of shakeup and change.
Allie Sherman - HC in CFL before Giants*
Alex Webster - no HC experience when hired*
Bill Arnsparger - no HC experience when hired
John McVay - HC in HS and college before Giants*
Ray Perkins - no HC experience when hired
Bill Parcells - 1 yr HC at Air Force prior to Giants*
R** H*****y - no prior HC experience*
Dan Reeves - longtime Broncos HC
Jim Fassel - no HC experience prior to Giants*
Tom Coughlin - pro and college HC prior to Giants*
* Giants ties previous to being hired as HC
If the Mara/Tisch/Reese regime follows past trends, previous experience with the Giants is a bigger factor than previous HC experience. I suspect that will be less true for the younger Mr. Mara.
Also note that the only HCs the Giants have hired from the defensive side in the last 50 years were Arnsparger and Parcells, and Parcells was sort of an accident. I also suspect that the younger Mr. Mara won't have the same preference for offense, though the trend around the league is that more successful heac coaches are coming from offense than defense.
If Coughlin is fired, my guess is Reese stays and Mara and Reese collectively decide on a new head coach, letting the new head coach select his assistants.
How do you run any sort of offense when the QB gets absolutely annihilated every single time he drops back to pass?
The problems:
1) "Glad it's not just me, cause part of me thinks I'm nuts.
I think the Giants believe they can address the major problem areas in FA and draft an impact player. If the OL is improved in 2015 no reason this team can't compete for the NFC East title. The defense is going to take a few years in my opinion, but the offense is an OL away. Really a LG away."
We've been saying this toward the end of each of the past three seasons, and the result is 3 - 9 heading toward 3 - 13. As JonC suggests, correctly imo, this would again demonstrate that this FO has zero ability to self-scout and analyze the problems, because the same ol' shit keeps getting worse with this cast of characters.
2) It's difficult to credit the FO with any effective long-range plan: re-upping TC year by year, force a coordinator change here, force a coordinator change there, and the dead wood stays put
3) I don't think it's my imagination that in most of TC's recent post-game pressers he has thrown not-so-veiled jabs at the offensive play calling, whether down and distance, run vs. pass or v.v. I don't get the feeling that he's so solidly in BMc's corner, but maybe that is just a reflection of a frustrated coach under fire.
I like McAdoo and you see some of his creativity, notwithstanding the abysmal OL; I think what your assessment has going for it most of all is that a coaching change probably can't be effected while leaving McAdoo in place. The play I like best on Sunday was, after they had run OBJ on an end around with the pitch from Eli, a series or two later, the little fake into the line, the fake pitch to OBJ again running from his spot wide or slot right, but then throwing a short screen in the middle, behind LOS.
I think the problems are more on Reese's watch, and leaving this FO team in place with TC would be hard to take, because they've shown zero ability to fix the problems. No playoffs in six of seven years?
How do you run any sort of offense when the QB gets absolutely annihilated every single time he drops back to pass?
1. Coughlin will stay
2 Fewell will get fired as a condition of Coughlin staying
3. If offensive progresses in 2015 and we still blow it because of the defense or whatever other reasons, Coughlin is fired and Macadoo takes over.
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...with an OL this bad.
How do you run any sort of offense when the QB gets absolutely annihilated every single time he drops back to pass?
The whole point of bringing in McAdoo was so that the offense would be effective with a porous offensive line. If the offensive line were any good, Gilbride would still be the offensive coordinator.
I don't think the "point" of bringing in any OC is to succeed with a shitty OL. No team plans to have a shitty OL.
They certainly wanted to introduce some new concepts and felt what we were doing ran stale but there's no possible way of fielding a successful offense with an OL this bad and a QB with no mobility. I think that's pretty obvious.
Who is responsible for this talent mess?
Why is it a team like the Stillerz can stay competitive while the Giants can't?
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In comment 12014872 arcarsenal said:
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...with an OL this bad.
How do you run any sort of offense when the QB gets absolutely annihilated every single time he drops back to pass?
The whole point of bringing in McAdoo was so that the offense would be effective with a porous offensive line. If the offensive line were any good, Gilbride would still be the offensive coordinator.
I don't think the "point" of bringing in any OC is to succeed with a shitty OL. No team plans to have a shitty OL.
They certainly wanted to introduce some new concepts and felt what we were doing ran stale but there's no possible way of fielding a successful offense with an OL this bad and a QB with no mobility. I think that's pretty obvious.
I certainly don't think that any decisions could possibly be made based on anything since the game in Dallas. By the end of that game it was clear the season was over, and it was clear what this team is.
this gave me a chuckle, thanks.
I think a lot of you are overstating how the Giants FO thinks of McAdoo. We have no idea if the FO had any input into McAdoo's hiring, and if he was solely TC's guy, they're both gone.
I also don't recall Mara flat out claiming there would be "wholesale changes" out in public if we had another bad year.
The changes will be that Fewell gets fired and hopefully Quinn does as well.
Mara's statement last year seemed to be pointed directly at the coaching staff. He went so far as to say Reese was safe and that he trusts him, but never said as much about the coaching staff. I thought that was both unfair and unusual at the time, because Reese didn't need the strong vote of confidence (even if people are out in the streets protesting, GMs don't get canned as often as coaches) and because I didn't think the problem was anywhere near one sided either.
Instead - we canned half the coaching staff (Pope, Ingram, Gilbride "retired") and put the rest on watch. I don't think Mara expected the step backwards on defense, where we were clearly playing over our heads thanks to a softer schedule in the second half of last season.
I would agree with Emil that they started to make a move towards the future last year (and why Pope and Ingram were summarily dismissed), but it seems like the Giants are trying to approach a coaching change like getting into a pool, slowly getting wet to avoid shock. I don't think that's going to work.
I believe that Tom Coughlin wanted McAdoo.
I believe that Tom Coughlin wanted McAdoo.
Another thing to consider is that TC is more than just the coach here. I don't think he's disconnected in the same way that Fassel was. It's entirely possible that the FO (Reese and ultimately, Mara) had to be onboard with the selection, gave TC a list, and let TC make the final decision. That way, both effectively picked him.
WOW, really?? Thats surprising. How do you feel about the Spags part? I'm actually fine with Coughlin returning, but Spags I'm on the fence about. Hopefully they give him the horses along the DL.
Why not? If the guy has no intention to retire very soon and is in great physical shape, why would one toss all those precious year of NFL experience out the window. It makes no sense.
I'm OK with moving on from Coughlin but to cite his age and determine he can't help rebuild a team is patently age discrimination.
disappointed if true (and you are usually right). instead of looking to the future, they look to the past and go with something that worked 6-7 years ago thinking that the results will be the same. maybe the defense shows different looks and takes a more high risk/high reward approach, but the fundamental rot that has set in on this team will not go away. no outside the box thinking.
In Spags favor, he is/was a student of Jim Johnson who was a very successful defensive mind. Truth be told, I'd rather Spags next year then run with Fewell one more time.
You have sources inside NYG?
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No offense to Spags, but he hasn't exactly lit it up since (although he's had very little to work with since as well). Not sure how much of his success was him versus the superior talent we had on D during those years.
In Spags favor, he is/was a student of Jim Johnson who was a very successful defensive mind. Truth be told, I'd rather Spags next year then run with Fewell one more time.
The problem is, Spags is one piece. The coaching staff is comprised of quite a few people - position coaches, QA assistants, etc. The failure that we've seen the past couple of years, if it's in part attributable to coaching, is severe enough that thinking you can swap out one or two, here or there, is going to make a big difference.
That seems to be the same approach they took with the offensive line and other problem areas. Tweaks. We're 3-10, the time to tweak is over.
I've been wondering whether that's the plan. I would welcome it.
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In comment 12015266 jcn56 said:
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No offense to Spags, but he hasn't exactly lit it up since (although he's had very little to work with since as well). Not sure how much of his success was him versus the superior talent we had on D during those years.
In Spags favor, he is/was a student of Jim Johnson who was a very successful defensive mind. Truth be told, I'd rather Spags next year then run with Fewell one more time.
The problem is, Spags is one piece. The coaching staff is comprised of quite a few people - position coaches, QA assistants, etc. The failure that we've seen the past couple of years, if it's in part attributable to coaching, is severe enough that thinking you can swap out one or two, here or there, is going to make a big difference.
That seems to be the same approach they took with the offensive line and other problem areas. Tweaks. We're 3-10, the time to tweak is over.
I prefer spags' approach from 2007-2008 which was more blitz heavy and risk-taking than fewell which was more focused on preventing big plays and capitalizing on mistakes (relying on the front 4 to generate pressure). so i see that replacement as a positive, assuming coughlin will allow spags to exert full control over the defensive philosophy and that spags breathes some life into the D. however, i also agree that there are probably position coaches that need to go and that this is tweaking/window dressing and delaying the inevitable by another season.
the main positive i can see is that there would be continuity on offense which will be more comfortable with the WCO/McAdoo style. on the downside, i expect we will see the same negative trends next season that we have for the last several years (high number of turnovers, leading the league in injuries, playing from behind frequently and going into a conservative shell with the lead/not stepping on opponent's necks, failing to adjust playcalling to developments in the game).
Reasonable to assume we're on the wrong path and will continue to flounder without change.
Status quo sends message to everybody: no accountability here. No reason to change. Stay the course. OK with us if we miss the playoffs, finish 7-9, 3-13. Whatever.
1) A high-quality QB
2) A leading NFL coach
3) One of the best college talent pickers in the business (Reese)
You step back from this disastrous 2014 and you ask, is this really a situation that you want to blow up or do you continue to overhaul the FO and coordinators/position coaches? Whatever we think, it's reasonable to conclude that continued gradual change is the better alternative.
Year's of steady decline.
Not a good thing I think.
Cowher? He's been collecting TV paychecks for 7-8 years. Mara and Reese are trying to transition and give a united, well-sorted front. I hope it comes to fruition.
Spags coaches the defense, McAdoo runs the offense and ascends to the HC position when the time is right. Ownership turns its sights on the FO, where there is a lot of work to do (LOL). That positions the franchise for system continuity with able leadership, if McAdoo is the goods. Aiming for such continuity, given how it ties into talent acquisition, ain't a dumb decision.
1) A high-quality QB
2) A leading NFL coach
3) One of the best college talent pickers in the business (Reese)
You step back from this disastrous 2014 and you ask, is this really a situation that you want to blow up or do you continue to overhaul the FO and coordinators/position coaches? Whatever we think, it's reasonable to conclude that continued gradual change is the better alternative.
Somewhere between 2 and 3 (either one, the other or both) there's a problem. We wouldn't be where we are right now if there wasn't. I'm not necessarily saying we have to blow the whole thing up, but going in thinking those are all the case when the results say otherwise is not going to bode well for us.
Coughlin will have to be fired or not given another contract after this one runs out. And I don't think that Mara relishes the thought of him being a lame duck coach and niether does Tom.
He thinks he can coach forever and that is going to be the problem that Mara and Tisch will have to face once this season is over. I do not think it will be as simple as what you theorized. They made things more complicated by forcing Gilbride out and hiring McAdoo.
I believe this team bottomed out in 2013 and is on the ascendancy...Eli said as much to Francesa this week. The quality of football on the offensive side is unquestionably better. The defense must be fixed, but the offensive repairs began months ago.
I don't see this as a team on the edge of total collapse.
I don't disagree. I would be reluctant to let Reese go at this point, despite his part in the current roster situation. I do think he's better suited in his previous role, and that part of our roster decay is attributable to his choice of Marc Ross to fill his previous role.
Thing is - with all the caveats, and even with keeping Reese, changes need to happen there. Possibly big changes, beyond just firing Ross (maybe it's time we took a few of the scouts out back, or hired some new ones to augment the existing staff, etc.).
There's just too much wrong right now, and it's been that way for too long, to assume that we can have a completely smooth transition. That's for high functioning organizations, of which we're not a member at this point in time.
1) A high-quality QB
2) A leading NFL coach
3) One of the best college talent pickers in the business (Reese)
If we have all of those things, why do we suck so badly? Something's awry. I don't see how you come off of a 3 or 4 win season, and having made the playoffs once in 6 years, and make only cosmetic asst coach changes.
Strahan, Tuck and Osi aren't here anymore. Nor are Pierce or Mitchell. And for all the talk about how how reliant Fewell is on his front 4, the front 4 (7) was exactly how we won a Super Bowl with Spags.
Whoever comes in here is going to have to hope Reese can restock the defensive talent quickly because there's not a lot to work with here and I don't think scheming can cover it all up.
It's a possibility you don't often see mentioned on BBI...the necessary front office adjustments (with regards to the draft) may have already been made following the 2012 season. Draft classes are like wines though...you've got to wait a while before they taste good.
I think we could be drinking the last bottles from the shitty 2008-2012 grapes.
It's a possibility you don't often see mentioned on BBI...the necessary front office adjustments (with regards to the draft) may have already been made following the 2012 season. Draft classes are like wines though...you've got to wait a while before they taste good.
I think we could be drinking the last bottles from the shitty 2008-2012 grapes.
That's just the draft, someone needs to be taken to task for the FA acquisitions and cap management, both of which need to step up their game if we're ever going to turn this thing around.
I think that's a part, but it's not just that. Winning the SBs complicated matters somewhat, since retaining your talent becomes more expensive.
I think the OL situation is curious at best, retaining Snee last year for $7m and then retaining him for this year when it was pretty clear he was done. Not sure whether that's a complication of Snee being TC's son-in-law, a function of the dearth of talent on the OL, or a mix.
We also need for the wounded to come back and be 100% - especially Cruz.
I see an OL of Beatty, Schwartz, Richburg, UFA, Pugh (those five likely, though positions may switch). I see our starting three wideout being superb if Cruz returns to form. TE should be better with Donnell in year 2 and Robinson in year 4 as I believer A. Robinson will step up. I just have that feeling and pray I am right cause he has the physical tools.
As for defense, a complete overhaul of the DL is needed along with a LB to replace Williams and a FS who can cover the middle of the field.
So I think we'll make some free agent moves, nothing overly flashy, but we clearly need a starting OL in UFA and a starting DL.