NEW YORK (AP) Speedy outfielder Eric Young Jr. is becoming a free agent after the New York Mets declined to offer him a contract for next season.
The team announced the move before Tuesday night's deadline.
Young, who had been eligible for arbitration, batted .229 with 30 stolen bases in 100 games this year, when his salary was $1.85 million.
He led the National League with 46 steals in 2013 and opened this season as New York's primary leadoff hitter but managed only a .299 on-base percentage and lost playing time in a crowded outfield. The switch-hitter finished with a homer and 17 RBIs in 316 plate appearances, scoring 48 runs.
The 29-year-old Young became expendable when the Mets signed free-agent outfielder Michael Cuddyer to a $21 million, two-year contract last month.
New York tendered contracts to its six other players who are eligible for arbitration: first baseman Lucas Duda, second baseman Daniel Murphy, shortstop Ruben Tejada and pitchers Dillon Gee, Jenrry Mejia and Bobby Parnell.
but like others, Collins makes me nervous. I'd like to see Tovar get a shot at that role. Reynolds and Herrera need to be playing every day in AAA and Tovar can't really sit in AA anymore.
I know it's a ZERO percent chance at happening, but I'd still like it if Puello had an outside chance of making the team somehow. Maybe bring in a right handed vet with pop on a spring training invite so at least Puello would have the slimmest of shots of beating him out if he caught fire in spring training. I know its unlikely but Im gonna be bummed if the dude shows up in shape and is hitting and we have to cut him because he is out of options.
Anyways. Plenty of Rule V options for another lefty reliever, as well as some names left in free agency. If you are going all in on an outfielder with pop for the bench just sign Ludwick. He'd probably play like 30 games and he would bring some serious power off the bench.
He did his job and wasted two years on a garbage team.
I like that team. Still a little tinkering left. One of the starters maybe gets traded for Miller like Cerrone keeps insisting? Swap out Tejada for Miller. Use the extra starter's spot for another lefty. We'll find somebody there. And then the last spot is the right-handed outfielder. Plenty of time to make these moves but man am I ready to see Harvey take the mound and kick this off!
Filthy Bullpen, Very Solid Lineup, Nice Flexible bench. Shitload of talent in AAA knocking on the door. Is the team perfect? No. The defense up the middle won't be stellar(that's the tradeoff to finally bring offense to this team) and Lagares isn't an ideal leadoff hitter. Big deal. Find me a team that's perfect.
None of the potential SS mentioned has more upside as a hitter than Flores, except maybe Castro.
And why would Sandy trade Syndergaard+ for someone like Miller and totally block both Reynolds and Cecchini. That would make no sense unless he thinks Mets can win it all in 2015 if they just add Miller.
Let Flores/Tejada play the position for the first few months. Then maybe you trade Murph at the deadline and move Flores to 2B.
Given Wright's health, I think you need to keep Flores around because Mets have no one else at 3B.
Filthy Bullpen, Very Solid Lineup, Nice Flexible bench. Shitload of talent in AAA knocking on the door. Is the team perfect? No. The defense up the middle won't be stellar(that's the tradeoff to finally bring offense to this team) and Lagares isn't an ideal leadoff hitter. Big deal. Find me a team that's perfect.
Yeah, its lineup that is not really outstanding at any one position but that's solid one through eight
I want this kid to get a full shot in the worst way. I think he has extreme offensive potential and showed he can hold the position in the very least last year. I think he has star potential.
I think we are a borderline playoff team now but I still don't think we are a finished product. We won't be a perennial WS contender until Harvey, deGrom, Wheeler are all hitting their primes in a few years and Syndergaard, Matz, ect have all broken in. I still think we need to see what we have with a few players like Flores. This kid has been a stud in our system for as long as I can remember. Give him a shot. He's as good an option as just about anybody. I think you'd still have fallback options in Reynolds and Tovar and we will still have excess to pull off a trade mid-season if he is REALLY so horrible like some believe.
Who's a better 2 hitter than Murphy? There's 2 guys that hit more homeruns than Duda in the NL last year. He's not a clean up hitter? Cuddyer and Wright are nice 3 hitters if they are healthy on any team. Granderson hitting 25 homeruns in the 6th or 7th hole? How many teams have offense like TDA and Flores can provide in the 7th and 8th hole? Its solid right now but the potential is through the roof. I think its a top 5 lineup and yes some of that is due to my own personal projections.
Watching a team with a homegrown core is very rewarding to me
Who's a better 2 hitter than Murphy? There's 2 guys that hit more homeruns than Duda in the NL last year. He's not a clean up hitter? Cuddyer and Wright are nice 3 hitters if they are healthy on any team. Granderson hitting 25 homeruns in the 6th or 7th hole? How many teams have offense like TDA and Flores can provide in the 7th and 8th hole? Its solid right now but the potential is through the roof. I think its a top 5 lineup and yes some of that is due to my own personal projections.
I think it's a lot of projection, the addition of Cuddyer turns the Mets from last year (a bottom 5 offense) to a top 5? There is a ton of projection there. I hope you're right, but it's not something I'm confident in - I'm hopeful this isn't the finished product.
If it is, I'd be more confident that the pitching can carry the team with marginal offensive improvement (other than Cuddyer)
But it isn't just the addition of Cuddyer. Last years lineup evolved as the year went on. Ike Davis, Dominic Brown, and Ruben Tejada opened the season as starters. The lightbulb didn't go on for Duda until June. TDA was awful the first half of the season until he figured it out. Flores didn't play every day until September. Granderson in the very least should benefit from the shorter porch. As he would have hit 29 homeruns last year Wright basically turned in a lost year. Anything he gives is a huge upgrade. The only positions I wouldn't expect improvement from would be 2nd and CF. Murphy has posted almost identical slash lines the last three years so it's a safe bet he isn't going improve much. Lagares could improve but it would be simply a guess. Every other position there's a logical eason they should improve.
RE: Watching a team with a homegrown core is very rewarding to me
offensively. I'm a pretty rosy fan but Im also realistic enough to know that
David Wright must prove himself. Curtis Granderson must prove himself. Wilmer Flores must prove himself. TDA must stay injury free. Michael Cuddyer must stay injury free. There is no depth to speak of behind those guys. Thinking that a new year will erase DW's & CG's debacles is at best risky.
is a horrendous MLB player. Outside of a 50 or so game run while with the Rockies he hasn't hit at all and sucks in the field. This was an absolute no brainer. I'm sure he's a great guy (that's the claim at least" but a little extra speed on the bench with zero other skills just doesn't have much value. Sort of sucks Tejada adds zero speed given the fact Flores obviously doesn't either but it is what it is for now.
You can't just assume improvement across the board.
It won't happen that way and it's dangerous to go into a season basically banking on best case scenario for every player. For the guys who improve or surprise there will be ones who get hurt or fail to meet expectations. It's just how it works.
I like the pitching a lot, I think the lineup is getting better.. but we need a bit more offensively. I'd be disappointed if Cuddyer was the only "notable" move we made this winter.
Best possible outcomes across the board. Full seasons are better than half seasons. Upgrades are upgrades. I'd make a friendly wager that assuming health and full seasons C, 3B, SS, 1B, LF, and RF are all better to much better over their 2014 counterparts. Now of course injuries can strike but our bench and pool to draw from in AAA is also much stronger than last year. We could lose any player in the lineup for a stretch and replace them with a pretty good player and that simply wasn't the case in years past. And moving from 8th in runs scored to 5th isn't the monumental leap some are making it out to be.
Andrew Brown was in the opening day lineup and that torch got passed to Chris Young. Duda didnt play a full season and was a different player from June on even if it wasn't substantial.
Best possible outcomes across the board. Full seasons are better than half seasons. Upgrades are upgrades. I'd make a friendly wager that assuming health and full seasons C, 3B, SS, 1B, LF, and RF are all better to much better over their 2014 counterparts. Now of course injuries can strike but our bench and pool to draw from in AAA is also much stronger than last year. We could lose any player in the lineup for a stretch and replace them with a pretty good player and that simply wasn't the case in years past. And moving from 8th in runs scored to 5th isn't the monumental leap some are making it out to be.
How is 1B going to be "much better" than its 2014 counterpart? Duda is going to hit 40 HRs or something?
was ranked around 25th (my guess) they can be top 15, but it would require bounce back seasons from Wright and Granderson, and then consistent (at worst) seasons from Murphy, Duda, and Cuddyer, and improvement from TDA, and SS.
Lagares can stay the course, if the above happens they can carry Lagares's bat.
But...for the above to happen we're assuming the best case.
And I'm generally not negative, but when's the last time "best case" happened with the Mets?
On the pitching side my only real concern is people penciling Harvey as 2013 Harvey. I hope that's the case, but no guarantee.
If they go into the season without adding anything else
it will be a big mistake. This is currently an 85 win team. Everything breaks right maybe they get closer to 90, but if anything goes wrong (Wright, Granderson, Cuddyer, Harvey) you're looking at another 80ish win season. Note that things haven't gone right for any of those 4 guys over the last 12 months (and plenty has gone right for the rest of the roster to limited results).
And, as PJ said, it's the Mets - when does everything break right? After all this time losing, If 90 wins is the goal, they need to have a roster that's not only capable of winning 90 but capable of winning 95-100 (in a best case scenario). That's what it is to be a true contender, and that's what this team would be if they could add just 1 more significant piece. You can't just expect them to develop the winning culture the Giants/Cardinals have overnight and waltz into the season/playoffs with an 88 win team and expect them to compete.
was ranked around 25th (my guess) they can be top 15, but it would require bounce back seasons from Wright and Granderson, and then consistent (at worst) seasons from Murphy, Duda, and Cuddyer, and improvement from TDA, and SS.
Lagares can stay the course, if the above happens they can carry Lagares's bat.
But...for the above to happen we're assuming the best case.
And I'm generally not negative, but when's the last time "best case" happened with the Mets?
On the pitching side my only real concern is people penciling Harvey as 2013 Harvey. I hope that's the case, but no guarantee.
Wait your combining leagues in which there is a DH in one?? Not how it works. They need to move from 8th to 5th... 3 spots.
Best possible outcomes across the board. Full seasons are better than half seasons. Upgrades are upgrades. I'd make a friendly wager that assuming health and full seasons C, 3B, SS, 1B, LF, and RF are all better to much better over their 2014 counterparts. Now of course injuries can strike but our bench and pool to draw from in AAA is also much stronger than last year. We could lose any player in the lineup for a stretch and replace them with a pretty good player and that simply wasn't the case in years past. And moving from 8th in runs scored to 5th isn't the monumental leap some are making it out to be.
How is 1B going to be "much better" than its 2014 counterpart? Duda is going to hit 40 HRs or something?
I said better to much better not much better for everyone. Duda would fall into the slightly better range. The shorter porch will help him along with a fresh full season as the starter. I'm guessing 35.
if you are right about everything, I'm going to be very happy this summer.
I'm still really skeptical. If they don't want to give up an stud arm or two to get an SS, why not sign one of the stud bullpen arms (Miller/Robertson) and have an elite pen? We need upgrades wherever we can get them. One injury to Familia/Meija and we're relying on post TJ Parnell and probably converting starters into relievers to try to put a pen together.
I just don't think this is the time for the Mets to just coast and wait for things to happen. I think this is the point where they need to get a little aggressive and really open this window now.
It's a team that will probably not make the playoffs if they just stand pat. They'll get close, but.. not close enough.
How is 1B going to be "much better" than its 2014 counterpart? Duda is going to hit 40 HRs or something?
I assume Duda will regress a bit, but one could argue that 1B could get better just by giving 60 of Duda's ABs vs LHPs to Cuddyer.
Also, to whoever speculated that Miller would require Syndergaard+, I think that is nonsense. And while I'm on it, does anyone notice the insane assumptions made by Metsblog on what it would take Wheeler/deGrom PLUS Syndergaard to get Kemp or Alexei Ramirez. I have no idea why I still go to that site.
But I also have higher expectations (in other words, I have not been disappointed - even a little in their results so far because I've expected them to stink). This year will be different.
I'm not as optimistic with the offense as ZG, but I feel with one more move they could be a legit contender. SS. they HAVE to upgrade SS. Maybe that means Flores, but you don't tender Tejada at 1.5? to be your backup SS.
And then you still need bounce backs or improvement from a bunch of guys, no significant regression, and no major injuries.
very thin margin for error, but the Mets can contend this year.
Does anyone feel like the Mets should pursue Cabrera now that he's a FA? I don't. There's a MetsBlog post where Cerrone thinks they should. I just disagree (I'm not really a fan of Cerrone)
Does anyone feel like the Mets should pursue Cabrera now that he's a FA? I don't. There's a MetsBlog post where Cerrone thinks they should. I just disagree (I'm not really a fan of Cerrone)
I think the domestic abuse, DUI and PED stuff likely scares off the Mets even if he were good (which he likely isn't). I almost feel like aim higher or stick with Flores. I'm still hoping they somehow land a guy like Miller too.
Does anyone feel like the Mets should pursue Cabrera now that he's a FA? I don't. There's a MetsBlog post where Cerrone thinks they should. I just disagree (I'm not really a fan of Cerrone)
He's a SS version of EY, but the opposite off the field. I'd replace Tejada with him on a 1/$2mm deal. Just a guess, but wouldn't expect the Mets to look into him much unless he is still unsigned in February.
Asdrubal? Maybe. He's twice as good as Tejada, but he seems like the Mets would be settling.
Seems like Reyes is out now that the Jays feel like they're contenders again, but I'd still look at a trade for a SS, but Cabrera isn't a bad fallback that only costs cash.
But we are deep this year and have significant depth. We can sustain a bunch of injuries this year and still be fine. Is it going to kill us if Kirk plays in LF over Granderson for a month? How about MDD in CF over Lagares? Lose Duda? Cuddyer can play 1st. TDA? Call up Plawecki. Wright? Slide Murphy or Flores over and call up Herrera. We didn't have these options in years past. I'm calling 88 wins right now and that's being conservative. Another deGrom breaks out and it could easily push us over.
been said a lot in the past only to be proven wrong but I really love what the Blue Jays are doing this off-season. They really should be in on guys like Lester though.
They now have this situation where they have decent but not great players 1-8.
Most of these bloggers lapse into this grass is greener syndrome with other teams prospects. Tejada will wind up with way more ABs in his career than most of the SS being mentioned as trade possibilities for the Mets.
Tulo is the only guy who,significantly upgrades the lineup, but he would be a huge gamble with his health/contract.
The fact that the Mets are looking to trade for a guy rather than sign a free agent tells you they are not willing to spend for a top FA. So, given that, I think they would be better off signing cheap vets and looking for the next Marlon Byrd.
How about signing Moncada and adding a super prospect to the system and bridge to him with Flores?
Chance to strengthen the pipeline even more and only costs money. But the Mets won't do it. Sucks.
I'd love that and it's really the only thing we can really do that makes sense. Everyone wants more upgrades but if we are rolling with Flores I don't really see where we can upgrade. A right handed bench bat and another LOOGY maybe but the team is set and solid across the board. I don't see any holes this year.
Was tendered at 1.5 was because that WAS the going rate for backup middle infielders. Sandy isn't going to let Collins fuck it up again. Flores will start this year.
LOOGY more than maybe. Currently the second lefty is a guy with 1 major league inning who wasn't pitching in affiliated baseball in 2010, 2011, 2012
Sure but there's plenty of time and a million options out there. You're talking about the 7th spot in the pen. Would we be really so far off if we just re-signed Eveland?
LOOGY more than maybe. Currently the second lefty is a guy with 1 major league inning who wasn't pitching in affiliated baseball in 2010, 2011, 2012
Sure but there's plenty of time and a million options out there. You're talking about the 7th spot in the pen. Would we be really so far off if we just re-signed Eveland?
Yes but you said "maybe" while the Mets themselves have been pretty open about admitting it's an issue (apparently have contacted all but Miller) in the LH reliever market. More than a maybe given who they have. It's an issue. The bench also isn't very good at the moment. Tejada, Recker, Kirk, maybe MDD (but serve the same purpose), Campbell (far too much BBI/twitter love for his 2014, guy had a .348 BABIP with a 26.1% K rate. They should absolutely be better but they have pretty clear flaws at the moment.
It's essential to the teams success. The bullpen will be very good this year. We will clearly bring in another lefty. That much I am certain. Whether it's a free agent, a rule V guy, or Eveland.
A right handed power bat changes the bench from good to very good. Kirk, Ludwick, Cambell, Tejada, and Recker looks nice to me especially with the options we can draw on from AAA this year.
But we are deep this year and have significant depth. We can sustain a bunch of injuries this year and still be fine. Is it going to kill us if Kirk plays in LF over Granderson for a month? How about MDD in CF over Lagares? Lose Duda? Cuddyer can play 1st. TDA? Call up Plawecki. Wright? Slide Murphy or Flores over and call up Herrera. We didn't have these options in years past. I'm calling 88 wins right now and that's being conservative. Another deGrom breaks out and it could easily push us over.
You ARE the optimistic one aren't you? I think we are plus / minus 5 wins in either direction off of last year depending on how things break. And with the Mets, things usually break one way . . .
This has to be the hardest throwing collection of arms the Mets have ever had.
Parnell, Familia, and Parnell can all hit triple digits and generally sit in the upper 90s. Coming in after those guys, a lefty with a sweeping slider at 87 mph is going to have guys so far out in front.
LOOGYs should be fighting to get into this pen. I actually would bring back Eveland. He is still adjusting to that role but already did a decent job. I think he will get better at it. And he pairs well with the hard throwing Edgin
Leathersich likely will never succeed with the Mets. His command is horrid but what's worse is he has extreme reverse splits. No way would Terry Collins be smart enough to actually use him correctly.
They could improve the team significantly by adding Andrew Miller (have to offer best contract) and Jed Lowrie (2 years max). If Drew is a lot cheaper it might be a better risk/reward. Lowrie is 30, had a bad year at the plate last year but was solid with the glove and is a switch hitter with a career OPS near Murph. His defensive runs saved aren't great but he gets to balls out of his zone and ultimately he could play either infield position if they did decide to trade Murphy. Make no mistake he could be a big upgrade for this club with minimal risk as his wRC+ in a bad year was still higher than Flores (and steamer projects him to be higher this year).
Unlike the Yankees and other big market teams looking to contend, Miller is out of their price range and re: SS there may be a better alternative to Lowrie via trade. Point is simply that if they were to forgo all options and simply go into the season with what they have they would be doing this team a disservice. There are players out there who can make this team better, as it has every other year it just comes down to how much money Sandy is allowed to spend.
I don't see Lowrie as an automatic improvement on what Flores may offer. Sure Miller would be nice but we already have awesome 9th, 8th, and 7th inning options and an insurance policy in Parnell on top of that. Who's paying Miller to come in and be in the mix with 4 other guys?? Of course he'd help but teams don't operate that way. Our bullpen is borderline elite already.
just isn't going to happen. Heyman projects 4 for 32-44 based on what he's hearing. No chance the Mets are that team. Robertson already has 3 for 39 on the table so he won't be a Met either.
I don't see Lowrie as an automatic improvement on what Flores may offer. Sure Miller would be nice but we already have awesome 9th, 8th, and 7th inning options and an insurance policy in Parnell on top of that. Who's paying Miller to come in and be in the mix with 4 other guys?? Of course he'd help but teams don't operate that way. Our bullpen is borderline elite already.
c'mon this is just delusional. Andrew Miller would be BY FAR the Mets best reliever. "In the mix"? He was off the charts amazing this past year. The Mets would easily trade 2 or even all 3 of those other guys for Miller (money not the issue).
Most teams are questioning whether or not he's even a closer. And most of the pitchers you listed broke in as the year went on. Familia was one of the best relievers in baseball last year and he isn't overtaking Mejia or Parnell yet. Just sounds ridiculous that we NEED a Miller too.
Most teams are questioning whether or not he's even a closer. And most of the pitchers you listed broke in as the year went on. Familia was one of the best relievers in baseball last year and he isn't overtaking Mejia or Parnell yet. Just sounds ridiculous that we NEED a Miller too.
Questioning if he's even a closer because he's yet to do it. Not because of how good he is, c'mon man acting like Andrew Miller wouldn't be a MASSIVE addition to the pen is a joke. I know your whole thing is hyperbole but Miller is an elite MLB reliever. 14.87 K/9? Are you kidding me. The Mets would deal Familia or Mejia AND Black AND Parnell for Miller in a milisecond and not think twice if the money were the same.
not even going to debate this. For all of your arguments this one may be the most ridiculous. Saying that money shouldn't be used on a reliever is one thing but to act like Miller wouldn't be a massive upgrade/addition because of who they have is comical. Comical.
He had a career ERA of 5.33 entering 2014. Even during 2014 he was still coming in to face predominantly lefties and being used situationally. He's never been a closer so you have no idea how he'll handle. Let's not act like this is billy Wagner in his prime here. The guy had one great season
not even going to debate this. For all of your arguments this one may be the most ridiculous. Saying that money shouldn't be used on a reliever is one thing but to act like Miller wouldn't be a massive upgrade/addition because of who they have is comical. Comical.
Why you going off the rails again? I never once said he wouldn't be an upgrade. Your ADD is kicking in. I said he isn't a NEED!
He had a career ERA of 5.33 entering 2014. Even during 2014 he was still coming in to face predominantly lefties and being used situationally. He's never been a closer so you have no idea how he'll handle. Let's not act like this is billy Wagner in his prime here. The guy had one great season
Andrew Miller the past 3 seasons (which is more relevant than adding time when he was a starter don't you think? What a stupid stat to quote for your argument wow.) 163 games 2.57 era 1.05 whip, 133 innings 202 k's
not even going to debate this. For all of your arguments this one may be the most ridiculous. Saying that money shouldn't be used on a reliever is one thing but to act like Miller wouldn't be a massive upgrade/addition because of who they have is comical. Comical.
Why you going off the rails again? I never once said he wouldn't be an upgrade. Your ADD is kicking in. I said he isn't a NEED!
"In the mix" with other guys implies the guys they have are all equal to Miller does it not?
Elite bullpen? The Mets bullpen may be good but elite is a joke right now considering they were 30/30 in fWAR last year (Valverde and Farnsworth didn't pitch 500 innings to pull it all down, and 23rd in FIP. Could/should certainly be better this year but "elite" based on your dreams is silly.
Yeah I guess being absolutely dominant vs. righties in 2014 was a fluke. Weird how 22 teams have contacted his agent knowing his asking price with this knowledge.
and Farnsworth are such ridiculous red herrings that you use that it's not even funny. The Mets pen threw 1463.2 innings, those 2 threw 37.2 innings TOTAL, that's less than 3% of the bullpens total.
In a poll on MetsBlog this week, 59 percent of more than 11,100 voters said Sandy Aldersons current roster is capable of winning 80-85 games, which is up from 45 percent two weeks ago.
Unfortunately, fewer people now feel the team can win 85-90 games, which dropped from 42 percent to 27 percent.
You are arguing with yourself. Nobody's saying Miller didn't have a great year as a setup guy. Nobody's saying he wouldn't be an upgrade. Only thing I am saying is he isn't a need. Paying a 8th inning guy off one good year closer money is ridiculous for this team with the options we have in tow.
You are arguing with yourself. Nobody's saying Miller didn't have a great year as a setup guy. Nobody's saying he wouldn't be an upgrade. Only thing I am saying is he isn't a need. Paying a 8th inning guy off one good year closer money is ridiculous for this team with the options we have in tow.
Nice argument change. Well done. Who said he was a "need"? You made the claim 1. He's the same level as the guys we have 2. Cited his career era (which means nada given the fact it's 2.57 over the last 3 seasons now that he's in the pen)
3. Cited the fact some teams don't know if he will be a good closer (which of course is based on the fact he hasn't done it before, not that his talent level vs. closing is in question).
Although your ADD must have missed it. Why are you pointing to three year stats when we've established he was strictly a LOOGY in 2012-13? You don't think pitching against strictly leftys might have helped his numbers?? Lol
Although your ADD must have missed it. Why are you pointing to three year stats when we've established he was strictly a LOOGY in 2012-13? You don't think pitching against strictly leftys might have helped his numbers?? Lol
Andrew Miller is an elite level reliever. His numbers vs. righties since moving to the bullpen are excellent. His 2014 was one for the ages (and he maybe, or even probably can't match it) but if 30 teams were asked to pick 1 reliever from the Mets or Miller... 30/30 teams would take Miller. 30/30.
money isn't an issue and the Mets can swap 2 of Black, Familia, Parnell, Mejia for Miller, your answer is no? Just to go on record.
I honestly don't know. Miller had one great year not as a closer. Is he better than Mejia or Parnell who have proven they can do it? Is he better than Familia? Yeah probably but Familia has just as much upside. We all saw how dominant he was. Bottom line is I wouldn't even consider giving Miller closer money with the options we have
ZG - I'm not picking this up for DMM, bc he's already 100% right
but I think one thing you consistently do is mistake being 'average' or 'above average' at something for it not being a need. To win you need be the best at something. Sometimes you need to be the best at multiple things. The goal isn't to be just good enough at something that it's not a dire need. Any team trying to win needs to aim to be the best at as many things as possible.
Adding Miller to an already good pen would give it that potential to be one of the best in the game. Yes he's somewhat of a one hit wonder, but how is that any different than crediting the Mets players who "broke out" last year as reliable? "Going into last year" Vic Black got demoted, Familia couldn't find the strike zone, Mejia was a starter who couldn't get through the 3rd time seeing an order - and of course it goes without saying none of them have even sniffed a meaningful playoff inning.
Re: Lowrie, he's not perfect but he's also 1 year removed from a better season than Murphy has ever put up, while being a better defender at a harder position. Trading for someone better is preferred, but if that's not possible he would certainly make this team better.
1. Noah Syndergaard (RHP) 22 years old (AAA/MLB) 88% of 34 votes
2. Dilson Herrera (2B) 21 years old (AAA/MLB) 56% of 39 votes
3. Brandon Nimmo (CF) 22 years old (AAA) 33% of 43 votes (Run-off vs. Matz 55% of 40 votes)
4. Steven Matz (LHP) 24 years old (AAA) 69% of 48 votes
5. Michael Conforto (LF) 22 years old (A+) 49% of 43 votes
6. Kevin Plawecki (C) 24 years old (AAA) 59% of 34 votes
7. Rafael Montero (RHP) 24 years old (AAA/MLB) 65% of 37 votes
8. Marcos Molina (RHP) 20 years old (A) 43% of 40 votes (Run-off with Rosario 55% of 40 votes)
9. Amed Rosario (SS) 19 years old (A) 75% of 40 votes
10. Jhoan Urena (3b) 20 years old (A) 42% of 38 votes
11. Gavin Cecchini (SS) 21 years old (A) 57% of 37 votes
12. Dominic Smith (1b) 20 years old (A) 75% of 28 votes
13. Matt Reynolds (SS/2b) 24 years old (AAA) 52% of 31 votes
14. Cory Mazzoni (RP/SP) 25 years old (AAA) 46% of 28 votes
15. Matthew Chou Bowman (SP/RP) 24 years old AAA 42% of 38 votes
16. Cesar Puello (23) AAA (OF) 24% of 33 votes, runoff with Fulmer 52% of 31 votes
17. Buca di Beppo (Becerra) 28% of 29 votes, runoff vs. Maz 57%
18. LJ Mazzilli (24) 28% of 32 votes, runoff with Meisner 52% of 31 votes
19. Casey Meisner (20) (A) 57% of 30 votes
20. Milton Ramos (19) (A) 21% of 28 votes, run-off with Ynoa 52% of 23 votes
21. Gabriel Ynoa (22) (AA) 64% of 22 votes
22. Champ Stuart (22) (A+) 36% of 25 votes
23. Michael Fulmer (22) (AA) 41% of 22 votes
24. Akeel Morris (22) (A+) 31% of 26 votes
25. Logan Verrett (25) (AAA) 27% of 22 votes, 47% of runoff with Whalen/Mateo
26. Jack Leathersich (25) (AAA) 24% of 17 votes, 57% of runoff with Whalen
27. Tyler Pill (24) (AAA) 40% of 20 votes
28. Rob Whalen (21) 48% of 21 votes
29. Dario Alvarez (26) 33% of 24 vores
30. Luis Mateo (26) 27% of 26 votes, 77% of runoff with Diaz
31. Robert Gsellman 30% of 23 votes
32. Miller Diaz 25% of 24 votes, runoff with Brosher/Sanchez 37%
33. Blake Taylor 22% of 18 votes, runoff with Brosher/Sanchez 38%
34. Ali Sanchez (C) 18 35% of 23 votes, runoff vs. Brosher 75%
35. Logan Taylor (RHP) 16% of 19 votes, runoff with Brosher/Boyd 44%
36. Jayce Boyd (1b) 35% of 17 votes
if the Mets were the Yankees, I'd say 100% sign Miller, he without a doubt improves the pen.
however; if you believe, like I do, the Mets have limited dollars I would not spend those limited dollars on Miller.
Because he a) doesn't have the greatest track record b) he's never closed c) relievers are the most fungible part of a baseball team and d) relievers have a tendency to be inconsistent from to year to year
and most importantly with the addition of Parnell the bullpen shapes up to be "good enough" those extra dollars (if they exist) are better spent elsewhere.
if the Mets were the Yankees, I'd say 100% sign Miller, he without a doubt improves the pen.
however; if you believe, like I do, the Mets have limited dollars I would not spend those limited dollars on Miller.
Because he a) doesn't have the greatest track record b) he's never closed c) relievers are the most fungible part of a baseball team and d) relievers have a tendency to be inconsistent from to year to year
and most importantly with the addition of Parnell the bullpen shapes up to be "good enough" those extra dollars (if they exist) are better spent elsewhere.
Yeah you explained it better than I did. That's basically what I meant. I've been in and out of meeting writing on my phone.
if the Mets were the Yankees, I'd say 100% sign Miller, he without a doubt improves the pen.
however; if you believe, like I do, the Mets have limited dollars I would not spend those limited dollars on Miller.
Because he a) doesn't have the greatest track record b) he's never closed c) relievers are the most fungible part of a baseball team and d) relievers have a tendency to be inconsistent from to year to year
and most importantly with the addition of Parnell the bullpen shapes up to be "good enough" those extra dollars (if they exist) are better spent elsewhere.
PJ,
To be clear we were debating ability wise. I made clear the argument against spending money like that on a reliever is very debatable. Miller being better than anyone we have really isn't. Not to mention in all honesty the list of guys who weren't "able to close" is really a lot shorter than people want to admit. People cite Dotel and Benitez (ridiculous) but either one even as closer would make the Mets a better team for example.
So what gives? The Reds arent going to save any money by nontendering Partch, as the player they replace him with cant make less than the MLB minimum salary. In the case of the Yankees, neither Heathcott nor Campos was expected to be collecting a big league salary next year. The same could be said of Sitton or Rivero.
After checking with a few front office officials, the answer is that teams have figured out a nice quirk of the nontender deadline. Its one time that teams can clear a player off the 40-man roster without having to designate the player for assignment. Players nontendered do not hit the waiver wire, they become free agents immediately.
So the nontender deadline is a way to drop a prospect off the 40-man roster with a better chance of retaining him on a minor league contract than it would if you had to expose him on waivers for everyone to claim. The now-free agent can opt to sign with someone else, but thats often not as appealing as returning to the organization one already knows. Go to another organization and youre often just another guy. Stick with your existing organization and you have a few coaches, a signing scout or a roving instructor who is sticking up for you in organization meetings.
We dont know for sure that Heathcott or Campos will re-sign with the Yankees, and Partch could try to make another teams bullpen. But its a slight advantage in a business where teams are looking for any advantage.
the only counter is Miller basically had a career year at 29.
the rest of his career (other than maybe one year) has been injury filled and short of his potential.
So, is this the Miller you get going forward or is it the injury riddled/under performer.
He was great last year, but a gamble IMO.
I do understand in a lot of cases the "light bulb" comes on a little later for relievers and maybe now he's healthy, but that same premise (late blooming stud reliever) can be applied to Familia or Edgin (who was fantastic last year vs righties and lefties) or Black, etc.
Like I said, if money was no issue I'd sign him, but I wouldn't consider him a sure thing to duplicate last year.
RE: ZG - I'm not picking this up for DMM, bc he's already 100% right
but I think one thing you consistently do is mistake being 'average' or 'above average' at something for it not being a need. To win you need be the best at something. Sometimes you need to be the best at multiple things. The goal isn't to be just good enough at something that it's not a dire need. Any team trying to win needs to aim to be the best at as many things as possible.
Adding Miller to an already good pen would give it that potential to be one of the best in the game. Yes he's somewhat of a one hit wonder, but how is that any different than crediting the Mets players who "broke out" last year as reliable? "Going into last year" Vic Black got demoted, Familia couldn't find the strike zone, Mejia was a starter who couldn't get through the 3rd time seeing an order - and of course it goes without saying none of them have even sniffed a meaningful playoff inning.
Re: Lowrie, he's not perfect but he's also 1 year removed from a better season than Murphy has ever put up, while being a better defender at a harder position. Trading for someone better is preferred, but if that's not possible he would certainly make this team better.
Eric the difference is I accept that we just went through a big rebuild and spent close to 4 years trading for prospects and drafting to get to this point. You are saying that I'm taking average to good performances and accepting mediocrity and I would agree that would not be an acceptable form of business practice if we want to improve. The difference is most of the players you are referring to are premium high impact prospects that most of which are experiencing success in their first full seasons. In those cases it is absolutely acceptable to accept their performances with an eye towards the future and not look for upgrades at this time. I'm referring to TDA, Flores, Duda, Herrera, Lagares, Harvey, Wheeler, deGrom, Black, Familia, Mejia, Edgin. If we aren't going to be happy off of already good performances and give these kids a chance to grow further, what was the whole thing about??
Dan, its a losing battle my friend. For all the wrong reasons.
Dude. You couldn't lick Dan's shoes.
Yeah, im okay with DMM knowing more than me in regard to baseball. Its your firm grasp on ignorance that amuses me. And, as usual, you provide great evidence of that. Go ahead and flame away.
if the Mets were the Yankees, I'd say 100% sign Miller, he without a doubt improves the pen.
however; if you believe, like I do, the Mets have limited dollars I would not spend those limited dollars on Miller.
Because he a) doesn't have the greatest track record b) he's never closed c) relievers are the most fungible part of a baseball team and d) relievers have a tendency to be inconsistent from to year to year
and most importantly with the addition of Parnell the bullpen shapes up to be "good enough" those extra dollars (if they exist) are better spent elsewhere.
PJ,
To be clear we were debating ability wise. I made clear the argument against spending money like that on a reliever is very debatable. Miller being better than anyone we have really isn't. Not to mention in all honesty the list of guys who weren't "able to close" is really a lot shorter than people want to admit. People cite Dotel and Benitez (ridiculous) but either one even as closer would make the Mets a better team for example.
Well over it but go back and read my original post. I clearly said "who's Paying". My argument always included the money aspect.
RE: RE: ZG - I'm not picking this up for DMM, bc he's already 100% right
but I think one thing you consistently do is mistake being 'average' or 'above average' at something for it not being a need. To win you need be the best at something. Sometimes you need to be the best at multiple things. The goal isn't to be just good enough at something that it's not a dire need. Any team trying to win needs to aim to be the best at as many things as possible.
Adding Miller to an already good pen would give it that potential to be one of the best in the game. Yes he's somewhat of a one hit wonder, but how is that any different than crediting the Mets players who "broke out" last year as reliable? "Going into last year" Vic Black got demoted, Familia couldn't find the strike zone, Mejia was a starter who couldn't get through the 3rd time seeing an order - and of course it goes without saying none of them have even sniffed a meaningful playoff inning.
Re: Lowrie, he's not perfect but he's also 1 year removed from a better season than Murphy has ever put up, while being a better defender at a harder position. Trading for someone better is preferred, but if that's not possible he would certainly make this team better.
Eric the difference is I accept that we just went through a big rebuild and spent close to 4 years trading for prospects and drafting to get to this point. You are saying that I'm taking average to good performances and accepting mediocrity and I would agree that would not be an acceptable form of business practice if we want to improve. The difference is most of the players you are referring to are premium high impact prospects that most of which are experiencing success in their first full seasons. In those cases it is absolutely acceptable to accept their performances with an eye towards the future and not look for upgrades at this time. I'm referring to TDA, Flores, Duda, Herrera, Lagares, Harvey, Wheeler, deGrom, Black, Familia, Mejia, Edgin. If we aren't going to be happy off of already good performances and give these kids a chance to grow further, what was the whole thing about??
We can be happy with good signs and already good performances with a chance to grow, but they are what their record is. None of those performances have produced a record over .500. Some prospects will continue to grow, others will regress. Anointing any before they really produced and established themselves over several years will at best result in the Wright/Reyes vs. Jeter/Arod argument from 2005. How did that chest thumping work out for the Mets? And also only a handful of the guys you mentioned qualify as "premium high impact prospects", if you're going by what their expectations were based on their talent/pedigrees. Very few if any of those guys were looked at as can't miss/perennial all stars (like Bryce Harper for example).
No. But TDA was the highest rated catcher in baseball. Most of all the players I mentioned were nationally recognized. Some still haven't arrived like Syndergaard. The window for these guys to hit the show to me only started last year and will last for another year or two when Nimmo and Conforto take over for Granderson and Cuddyer. And unlike most prospects the players I mentioned all experienced success immediately. It's not like I'm saying we have to carry somebody until they get it together. They mostly have already done it. They just need to keep doing it.
But you can never have too many relievers ( apologies to Ernie A)
However, I would Be fine with Mejia as the closer. Parnell waiting n the wings if Jenry falters.
The problem with signing a closer is that it is not going to make either Mejia or Parnell very happy. I'd rather invest in a top flight LOOGY. Though the Mets missed the boat a little on that one.
But you can never have too many relievers ( apologies to Ernie A)
However, I would Be fine with Mejia as the closer. Parnell waiting n the wings if Jenry falters.
The problem with signing a closer is that it is not going to make either Mejia or Parnell very happy. I'd rather invest in a top flight LOOGY. Though the Mets missed the boat a little on that one.
With your scenario won't 1 of them be unhappy either way? Especially if it's Parnell who closes upon his return since it means Mejia goes into the year the closer and is bumped.
to be ready for opening day. Sandy said he should be ready around then or shortly thereafter but admits he's completely guessing.
If Parnell is ready day one Im betting he is named the closer. If he's not ready and Mejia is the closer I doubt Parnell is just anointed the closer role after the fact. He'll likely have to earn it back. Just what I think.
to be ready for opening day. Sandy said he should be ready around then or shortly thereafter but admits he's completely guessing.
If Parnell is ready day one Im betting he is named the closer. If he's not ready and Mejia is the closer I doubt Parnell is just anointed the closer role after the fact. He'll likely have to earn it back. Just what I think.
Sandy actually said the opposite of him being ready opening day.
Right now I think were projecting sometime after the season starts, Alderson said about Parnell pitching in the majors. But thats just an educated guess right now.
to be ready for opening day. Sandy said he should be ready around then or shortly thereafter but admits he's completely guessing.
If Parnell is ready day one Im betting he is named the closer. If he's not ready and Mejia is the closer I doubt Parnell is just anointed the closer role after the fact. He'll likely have to earn it back. Just what I think.
Sandy actually said the opposite of him being ready opening day.
Right now I think were projecting sometime after the season starts, Alderson said about Parnell pitching in the majors. But thats just an educated guess right now.
No I just said Sandy said he might not be ready opening day but shortly thereafter as a guess. I was referring to what Parnell himself said that he was shooting for opening day. Tommy John is basically a year and sometimes even shorter for relievers. Wouldn't be shocked at all if Parnell was ready or not. Neither would surprise me.
The Mets bullpen had three other teams in the NL with a lower ERA. They were fourth. So I apologize for being off by one. Not starting anything and I fully realize that's not a great stat just saying where I got that from. I fully expect them to be much better in 2015.
Ok, if I'm right you don't post on BBI for a month, if I'm wrong I'll do the same? That's how sure I am. Opening day would be exactly 12 months and the Mets have openly been more cautious with TJ rehab after the Braves 2 time duo went down in successive days. Shut down Mateo, slowed down Harvey and tried to slow down Hefner which didn't work. 0.00% chance Bobby Parnell is available opening day. Bet? Let's do this.
Ok, if I'm right you don't post on BBI for a month, if I'm wrong I'll do the same? That's how sure I am. Opening day would be exactly 12 months and the Mets have openly been more cautious with TJ rehab after the Braves 2 time duo went down in successive days. Shut down Mateo, slowed down Harvey and tried to slow down Hefner which didn't work. 0.00% chance Bobby Parnell is available opening day. Bet? Let's do this.
You are such a fucking amazing asshole sometimes? And again you want to make an argument or a fight about something Im not even arguing about. Never once did I say he would be ready for opening day. Not once. In fact I just said, neither would surprise me. We likely won't know for months but my point was most pichers are coming back in 12 months these days, especially relievers.
I don't get the reasoning to tendering him. $4mm for 3/4 of a season. Just to hope he shows enough to be trade bait. I see several better uses of that money.
Fine fuck it. Lets do it. If he comes back before June you can't post for what a week? a day? Let's be reasonable and still be cool about it. If not I won't. June seems ridiculous sorry.
I don't get the reasoning to tendering him. $4mm for 3/4 of a season. Just to hope he shows enough to be trade bait. I see several better uses of that money.
I think people are forgetting how good Parnell was in 2013. Are we not sitting around talking about what Miller is getting on the open market? Parnell at 3-4 million is a bargain if he is truly is healthy IMO. And he'll be ready pretty close to the start of the season regardless if there are no setbacks.
to be honest Im not counting on him. Im fine with Black in the 7th, Familia in the 8th, and Mejia in the 9th. I think Parnell is kind of a wild card. I think you are forgetting how dominant Parnell was when he was last healthy though. He was VERY good in 2013. If he's close to that, the money he is being paid will be a bargain.
I just don't know if it's sustainable.. I doubt he will be that good again in 2015 but we;ll see. As long as we're not banking on him to take on a major role I'm not too worried about it.
I think we have solid 7, 8, 9 guys already and I could still see a Mazzoni and even a Montero carving out roles in the pen in 2015. Im looking at Parnell as an added bonus.
I am optimistic is that Parnell was one of a handful of players(Lagares/Wright) that went down to St. Lucie already to team up with Barwis and get a jump on the offseason. Looks like he's trying to show up to camp extremely strong and in shape this year.
I tend to discount performances on crappy teams and it's not like Parnell was ever a rock star so my expectations for him off TJ are pretty muted. Collins' comments were ridiculous in my view, and really seemed to serve no purpose. I think it would be a big mistake to not bring in at least 1 pitcher who has experience pitching in the 8th or 9th inning of a playoff game, and I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation to have. If they want to get to the playoffs it stands to reason they're going to need some guys who have been there before.
Does this roster even have 5 guys on it who've played a playoff game? Wright, Granderson, Colon, Cuddyer...?
a good performance on a crappy team. He was outstanding for an entire season. He clearly made a jump in 2013 from to good to very good. Will his injuries and Tommy John derail that? I don't know. But lets stop poo pooing what Parnell did and was in 2013.
Guys with playoff experience? Seriously? Could care less. Far more interested in putting good players on the field then who has made the playoffs or not. I just mentioned earlier in this thread that 21 out of our 25 projected players are homegrown on this team and after a very long rebuild, most have just hit the team within the last year or so. I don't think we need to criticize our young studs because they haven't made the playoffs yet. Most have broken in with the Mets and we all know we haven't been there in a while.
Look. I get berated for being overly optimistic but Ive generally been pretty dead on with much of what has happened with the Mets over the last few years. I stood here last year and said 77 wins many times and stood by it. Ill stand by 87/88 this year. Everyone can find me at season's end Ill take all the shit you all want if Im wrong. There will be plenty of room on the bus if Im right however.
people's perception of what a good team is hasn't caught up to reality yet. Everyone think's we need 4 Carlos Delgado's in the middle of the lineup. The majority of the lineups in the Nl are laughable. There's only a handful of teams that I'd put ahead of the Mets for sure. Everyone's acting like Harvey replacing Gee's production who had a negative WAR is going to amount to nothing. The bullpen who was lights out the last few months won't add anything over a full season. All the young players getting full seasons like TDA, Flores, degrom, ect will add nothing. All the players in AAA bursting with talent will offer nothing. Replacing the worst LF production in MLB with a batting champ will offer nothing. Its cool. I see 7-8 more wins on the low end.
for a "real SS". I'd actually take off a couple wins off my projection if we replaced Flores with a Didi or somebody like that. Flores is my breakout player if he plays SS all year. He'll be a top 5 offensive SS in the NL this year.
Fine fuck it. Lets do it. If he comes back before June you can't post for what a week? a day? Let's be reasonable and still be cool about it. If not I won't. June seems ridiculous sorry.
What? Who said 0% before June? I said 0% chance opening day. I'll spot you 2 weeks how about that? Parnell will not appear in the Mets first 15 games, if he does I won't post for a month, if he doesn't you agree to the same. Deal?
What's your WAR estimate for each player this upcoming season? Just curious how optimistic/realistic you are. Thanks.
Wow ok. I think I would have rather posted slash lines because WAR is effected by defense so much. But Ill give you a rough estimate.
Curtis Granderson. 1.7. I think he'll have a bounce back season with the shorter porch, working with Long, and shifting to LF where his arm strength will be mitigated. He might actually break 2.
Juan Lagares. 4. He was 3.8 last year and still didn't play a full season. I think his bat and base stealing will improve slightly.
Michael Cuddyer. 1.9 He was 1.5 last year in limited time and 2.4 in 2013. Ill put him in the middle of that. This is hard because Cuddyer doesn't have a lot of range but he was also playing in the biggest RF in the game in Colorado. His defense obviously will bring his WAR down but if he plays 120+ games his offense should add a ton to the lineup.
David Wright. 4.0. He was 6.0 in 2013 but I don't trust he'll be 100% that player going forward. His defense and hitting should still make him a 4.0 WAR player if he is healthy though
Daniel Murphy. 3.0. He was 3.0 in 2013 and 2.8 in 2014 because his defense regressed a little. I think his defense will bounce back to 2013 levels and his offense is consistent as it comes.
Wilmer Flores. 2.5. Kind of in line with what Steamer predicts if he plays a whole season. This could go higher depending if he breaks out but even on the low end I bet he hits 15 homeruns by accident.
Lucas Duda. 3.5. Anybody who really watched Duda saw the light bulb came on last season. With a full season, a shorter porch and all the confidence in the world Im betting he improves further. 35 homeruns.
TDA. 3.0 Steamer predicts 2.9. That sounds about right. He'll cut down on the passed balls and slug 15-20 homeruns which will make him a top 5 catcher.
Obviously this is assuming health for all of them. I think if any of these players went down, their replacement players would be much better then in years past. I'd be confident losing any player for some time and feel we could fill that position adequately.
Fine fuck it. Lets do it. If he comes back before June you can't post for what a week? a day? Let's be reasonable and still be cool about it. If not I won't. June seems ridiculous sorry.
What? Who said 0% before June? I said 0% chance opening day. I'll spot you 2 weeks how about that? Parnell will not appear in the Mets first 15 games, if he does I won't post for a month, if he doesn't you agree to the same. Deal?
Absolutely not. lol. You said May/June. Now its April 15th? I never said he would be ready for opening day just that it might be possible. But your idiotic June comment I will bet you on.
There are so many times when the pen gets overworked. Having several guys who can close or setup can get us through that and get us through injuries. Also, our guys have upside while Miller is coming off a career year.
Flame away. But also realize by me naming every player Im leaving a lot open for criticism. Im not going to be 100% right on all of them. Im also expecting reasonable health for most(i.e. no catastrophic injuries) but I think we could handle losses this year reasonably well.
Pretty sure the total of those estimates > the '14 Dodgers' starters
who led all of MLB in WAR and wRC+ (8 Dodgers regulars had 23.4 total WAR according to Fangraphs, by my math your estimates have the '15 Mets at 23.6).
Im saying if everyone stays healthy(a big if), I think we could challenge for a top lineup in the NL. Offense is seriously down in the NL across the board. Which players seem out of whack to you? Im hoping this is friendly and Im not opening this up to some flame war.
in the NL outside of maybe the Dodgers that is slated to have a solid player at every position like we are and even they had guys like A.J Ellis playing in a spot. . Almost all teams have holes, something many aren't fully grasping here.
"Parnell
DanMetroMan : 5:26 pm : link : reply
will "stay in St. Lucie" when the Mets break camp, and join the team in May or June barring setbacks."
You make it sound like I definitely said he wouldn't be back until June. Can you please supply some data or names that prove your assertion that "12 months" is becoming the norm? It's quite the opposite. The industry is realizing too many guys are rushing back and 14-18 months is now the "accepted" time table.
"Parnell
DanMetroMan : 5:26 pm : link : reply
will "stay in St. Lucie" when the Mets break camp, and join the team in May or June barring setbacks."
You make it sound like I definitely said he wouldn't be back until June. Can you please supply some data or names that prove your assertion that "12 months" is becoming the norm? It's quite the opposite. The industry is realizing too many guys are rushing back and 14-18 months is now the "accepted" time table.
Yeah ok Dan. As ridiculous as me saying Ill take your bet if you want to say May/June which you clearly said, is you saying I said he'll 100 percent be ready opening day. I never said anything even remotely like that. You've made a habit of attacking me off misinterpreted shit all day. Just drop it.
again, you insisted Harvey would be back in August of this past year so that shows how realistic you are with TJ.
Haha. WHAT?? Never. I said if he didn't wait 2 months to have surgery he might have made it back last year. Clearly not after he sat around and waited forever.
"Considering recovery times, we can begin by observing that overall times have improved since the earlier years of the surgery. Notice that the average return times for years up to 2005 were in the 17-18 month range. Since then, players have typically returned within 15-16 months of the surgery date. Looking at the column showing recovery times for players who underwent surgery in the second quarter, where a return in the following calendar year could be reasonably expected, there is a fairly dramatic drop from close to 19 months in the early years down to 15-16 months more recently."
just make outrageous statements that aren't based in reality. Nobody is shitting on the Mets here but EVERYTHING is best case scenario. Sandy himself said they aren't projecting Parnell for opening day yet you use the "but that's just an educated guess" part of it as if Sandy didn't say it. Educated guess either implies 1. They know Parnell's current state OR 2. Your assertion that 12 months is likely is false does it not? You call the Mets pen "elite" yet back it up with zero numbers. FIP and WAR both 100% disagree, you cite Lannan, Farnsworth and Valverde's 3% of the bullpen innings as the reason etc etc. I may be viewed as "negative" but at least I'm fair. You are over the top like a little kid would be. That's fine, I can't tell someone how to be a fan., but that doesn't add much to a conversation. I don't come to BBI to read that Eli is the greatest QB in the history of the NFL.
Disc in his neck which likely lead to tj. I was unaware of tj now taking more than 12 months, I will note that my friends who have performed this surgery generally have told me they tell patients to avoid high torc pitches (ie curves) until about a year. Less concern with fastballs after ten months.
Harvey had TJ in October of 2013, why wouldn't he be cleared to throw his slider over 13 months later if 12 months is so standard? Why is Parnell being ready opening day in question? He's not going to throw any minor league innings? He's being fast tracked when in fact unlike Harvey he's not even throwing off the mound at the same stage Harvey was?
RE: Frankly I am more concerned about the herniated
Disc in his neck which likely lead to tj. I was unaware of tj now taking more than 12 months, I will note that my friends who have performed this surgery generally have told me they tell patients to avoid high torc pitches (ie curves) until about a year. Less concern with fastballs after ten months.
The Mets were so concerned with his neck stuff there were rumors if the surgery wasn't 100% successful Parnell would never pitch again. It was no minor deal.
who has a negative outlook on everything. Im guessing its bleeded into your personal life. You came here to cry about the Wilpons and the doom and gloom of the franchise for years and everyone took your shit because you were the quickest copy and paster in the west. You are wrong about just about everything and you speak in absolutes like a complete dickhead. 100 percent TDA will not come back in a trade for Dickey anyone? I don't think the Mets bullpen is elite, I think the bullpen WILL be elite. I didn't just point to Lannan, Rice, Farnsworth, and Valverde. I said Black and Familia struggled early on. They were different players at years end. We can go on and on. Im saying Eli Manning is the best QB in the history of time? lol. Get the fuck out of here.
Almost all of those predictions are simply best case scenarios
Murphy - match his best year (2x his steamer proj)
Duda - improving upon a huge year because he's playing more than 153 games this year (2x his steamer proj)
Granderson, Wright, and Cuddyer are fair predictions, the concern is obviously health with all 3.
Flores is impossible to predict and still not likely to play SS every day for the season (even if he starts there).
TdA & Lagares are optimistic but fair in the lens of the rest, though they bring the tally to 5 career best seasons expected.
that many players have made it back in a year. Harvey was throwing in August and thought he was going to be back but SANDY put the kibosh on it because we were out of it as he should be. If anything, Harvey is proof you can come back that soon.
I don't even give a fuck about this. Im tired of arguing about things I never meant to argue in the first place. What is your point in all of this again? That it is 100 percent impossible for Parnell to make it back in a year, right? Well, going off a statistics you sound like the moron even if it is unlikely.
who has a negative outlook on everything. Im guessing its bleeded into your personal life. You came here to cry about the Wilpons and the doom and gloom of the franchise for years and everyone took your shit because you were the quickest copy and paster in the west. You are wrong about just about everything and you speak in absolutes like a complete dickhead. 100 percent TDA will not come back in a trade for Dickey anyone? I don't think the Mets bullpen is elite, I think the bullpen WILL be elite. I didn't just point to Lannan, Rice, Farnsworth, and Valverde. I said Black and Familia struggled early on. They were different players at years end. We can go on and on. Im saying Eli Manning is the best QB in the history of time? lol. Get the fuck out of here.
Now now, personal attacks (first try didn't work so you went for times 2? nice). Vic Black has a good arm, he was also worth 0.0 WAR last year. If you want to argue the Mets bullpen could/should be much better this year go for it but your assertion that the mets have all of these guys who had big seasons and are already proven good relievers is 100% false. You totally ignored my question earlier "based on what stats were the Mets relievers the 3rd best in baseball"? FIP and fWAR say otherwise
ignored your false statements on what velocity the Mets relievers "sit" because it really doesn't make a difference how hard they throw to be effective but as usual... false statements based on nothing. "I saw Familia throw 98!!"
RE: Almost all of those predictions are simply best case scenarios
Murphy - match his best year (2x his steamer proj)
Duda - improving upon a huge year because he's playing more than 153 games this year (2x his steamer proj)
Granderson, Wright, and Cuddyer are fair predictions, the concern is obviously health with all 3.
Flores is impossible to predict and still not likely to play SS every day for the season (even if he starts there).
TdA & Lagares are optimistic but fair in the lens of the rest, though they bring the tally to 5 career best seasons expected.
Murphy is absolutely realistic. He has basically been the exact same player the last two years. Im not projecting anything outside of the norm of that. Steamer is never going to like a player like Duda because they haven't watched him like we have. They see that he's been in the league for a while and view this past season as an outlier although we all know that isn't the story with him. Im only predicting slight improvement. Of course Im going to predict career years when half the players in our lineup are only coming off their first season. lol.
ignored your false statements on what velocity the Mets relievers "sit" because it really doesn't make a difference how hard they throw to be effective but as usual... false statements based on nothing. "I saw Familia throw 98!!"
That was tongue in cheek and yeah I saw Familia throwing triple digits in Orlando pitch after in spring training last year. Maybe the gun was off? Im pretty sure he hit 100 in the season too but I could give a rats ass if you believe what I saw or not.
- Sandy says unlikely Parnell is ready opening day (negative would be Sandy saying he will be or 50/50 and me choosing the former)
- You said the pen was 3rd in the NL, didn't supply any stat you were quoting and refused my inquiry as to which.
- Despite your denials you claimed Lannan, Rice, Farnsworth and Valverde were the reasons.
-Asserted Miller would simply "be in the mix" in the Mets pen ie the guys we have are as good
-Asserted the Mets pen is "elite"
Please point out where I was unfairly negative on this thread. Thank you in advance.
Nobody has to look for clues in this thread to know your a negative human being. lol Everything you say slants that way. You get fired up and post articles the moment anything breaks about the Wilpon's finances or if a player get's injured. Never here anything from you regarding anything good out of the Mets. You are sarcastic and look at the worst case scenarios in everything. The Mets will be contenders in 2016-2017 anyone? And honestly I don't know why. I think its simply to go against everything I post. I used to be on NYFS and still read there occasionally. Your not like that over there. I can't figure it out.
gun on TV with you watching tells you the velocity of pitchers "on average" vs. pitchFX/fangraphs which charts them? Sure makes sense to me.
I didn't realize pitchFX charts spring training games? Do they?
Wow. You said
" Parnell, Familia, and Parnell can all hit triple digits and generally sit in the upper 90s. Coming in after those guys, a lefty with a sweeping slider at 87 mph is going to have guys so far out in front."
What the hell does you seeing them throw that (supposedly) in ST (when guys generally don't even throw as hard) have to do withg your claims they all "sit" upper 90's? wowzas.
- Sandy says unlikely Parnell is ready opening day (negative would be Sandy saying he will be or 50/50 and me choosing the former)
- You said the pen was 3rd in the NL, didn't supply any stat you were quoting and refused my inquiry as to which.
- Despite your denials you claimed Lannan, Rice, Farnsworth and Valverde were the reasons.
-Asserted Miller would simply "be in the mix" in the Mets pen ie the guys we have are as good
-Asserted the Mets pen is "elite"
Please point out where I was unfairly negative on this thread. Thank you in advance.
Nobody has to look for clues in this thread to know your a negative human being. lol Everything you say slants that way. You get fired up and post articles the moment anything breaks about the Wilpon's finances or if a player get's injured. Never here anything from you regarding anything good out of the Mets. You are sarcastic and look at the worst case scenarios in everything. The Mets will be contenders in 2016-2017 anyone? And honestly I don't know why. I think its simply to go against everything I post. I used to be on NYFS and still read there occasionally. Your not like that over there. I can't figure it out.
Wait, I fully admit I said the Mets would not be contenders until 2016-2017 before last year, and? The Mets are so good on paper they can't possibly end up with 81-83 wins 6 games out of the WC? In fact, I'd argue 2016-2017 is WAY more likely with Harvey year 2 from TJ, Nimmo likely his first full season etc.
Was curious what your thoughts were and where your optomism was coming from. Not looking to agree or disagree with your guesses, but I appreciate you explaining your rationale on each as well. Now if you and Dan would kiss and make up, and we get back talking baseball ;)
gun on TV with you watching tells you the velocity of pitchers "on average" vs. pitchFX/fangraphs which charts them? Sure makes sense to me.
I didn't realize pitchFX charts spring training games? Do they?
Wow. You said
" Parnell, Familia, and Parnell can all hit triple digits and generally sit in the upper 90s. Coming in after those guys, a lefty with a sweeping slider at 87 mph is going to have guys so far out in front."
What the hell does you seeing them throw that (supposedly) in ST (when guys generally don't even throw as hard) have to do withg your claims they all "sit" upper 90's? wowzas.
Ummmm. Wrong poster moron. Lol. That wasn't even me. haha.
you are answering his question, please tell me which stat says the Mets bullpen was 3rd in the NL. Thank you.
OMG. I already did in this thread. I apologized and said I meant 4th, not 3rd, because I was looking at Bullpen ERA(admittedly a weak stat) Guess your ADD missed that too. Man you are just sloppy today. Not your best at all. Im disappointed Dan. I hold you to a higher standard. lol
"We won't be a perennial WS contender until Harvey, deGrom, Wheeler are all hitting their primes in a few years and Syndergaard, Matz, ect have all broken in."
Yet 5 minutes ago you mocked me for saying (before the 2014 season) they wouldn't be contenders until 2016-2017, which is one season from now... God i'm negative.
Was curious what your thoughts were and where your optomism was coming from. Not looking to agree or disagree with your guesses, but I appreciate you explaining your rationale on each as well. Now if you and Dan would kiss and make up, and we get back talking baseball ;)
No problem. Obviously no team is going to stay healthy all year but I don't think Im far off any projections individually assuming health.
"We won't be a perennial WS contender until Harvey, deGrom, Wheeler are all hitting their primes in a few years and Syndergaard, Matz, ect have all broken in."
Yet 5 minutes ago you mocked me for saying (before the 2014 season) they wouldn't be contenders until 2016-2017, which is one season from now... God i'm negative.
I think perennial WS contenders hold a different meaning than playoff contenders but thats just me. Im willing to drop this if you are Dan? No idea why you've been so crazy today.
Mets should contend for the playoffs this year. If they don't then honestly it's a disaster. 88 wins on average has been WC2 the last 5 seasons, figure "contending" is what? 4 games out? So if the Mets can't win 83-84 games then I would term this year to be a disaster and would want (though wouldn't expect) everyone fired.
players but similar values, Markakis just got 45, gotta figure that's about what Murphy gets with a solid 2015. I'd be pretty stunned if he's a Met in 2016.
and honestly most of my attack stemmed from shit with you from years ago. I haven't had any issues with you lately at all. Been in agreement with just about everything you've posted lately. Every once in a while you'll fly off the rails though and don't even read half of the shit being said. All good. Ill consider it a relapse. No harm no foul. Not even remotely mad... lol
to remotely hide my enthusiasm for this upcoming season. We all suffered through some rough years. When I pointed to optimism in the past it was basically all leading up to this moment. The organization as a whole from top to bottom is the best I ever remember it being since I was a kid in the 80s. I don't even think we've scratched the surface yet and will have a sustainable winner for years to come. Something we have never had. So Im excited. Sue me. Ill admit it.
Didn't like the Heyward trade but the Braves on paper don't look much worse than last year
-Blue Jays perennial cockteases but Saunders, Martin, Travis, Donaldson, Estrada... nice off-season right there, really could use a Lester or Samardizja though
- Orioles took a step back losing both Cruz and Markakis.
don't look like a team that will be challenging for the cup this year. The Knicks might be one of the worst teams in the NBA. We all know how bad the Giants have been. The Mets are all I got! lol
is trying to temper enthusiasm? I'm excited too but you throw out some statements that aren't based in reality (and I'm not trying to inflame this again). Look, do whatever you want, I'm not looking to ruin your fun but if it's a message board and we are discussing things don't you think there should be some basis for statements beyond "I saw him do this" or "He's the best" with nothing backing it up?
about like I said. I never brought up velocities or anything like that. I chimed in as a friendly in somebody else's conversation and said I saw Familia hit 100 in spring training. Who are you to say I didn't? And how does that make me some over the top moron? re-read the thread Dan. Even you can admit you've been a complete dick today. Its cool though.
on reality and am pulling shit out of my ass. Great timing considering I just posted my personal predictions for just about every player specifically and gave a rational to each one.
I'm tired of "debating" you. In the future I'd prefer not to make it personal. My girlfriend is just fine though tonight she's on a "texting me 30,000 dollar couches which she knows I won't be buying" kick. I'm excited for the season.
I'm tired of "debating" you. In the future I'd prefer not to make it personal. My girlfriend is just fine though tonight she's on a "texting me 30,000 dollar couches which she knows I won't be buying" kick. I'm excited for the season.
Wasn't trying to be personal by asking if you were having gf issues or a bad day at the office? I was actually trying to be kind. lol. We all have rough days. I don't think I was being nasty by asking that.
a final note... our usual argument involves you saying something like TDA wasn't that bad defensively, then the numbers say otherwise, supporting quotes say otherwise, then you change your stance and say something like "well how many of his bad plays hurt us?" and then finally say something like "most young catchers improve year 2" which may or may not be true but changes your original argument. It's basically the way all of these go. "Mets bullpen is elite" Me- "here are the rankings for xyz" You "these 4 guys are elite and throw 500 mph" me "no the numbers show they threw x in 2014" "Dan, you are so negative".
like that is even remotely accurate. That entire thing is completely preposterous. I will admit I expect TDA to improve defensively in 2015 as almost all catchers do going into their second season. I also don't look at metrics all that much for catchers because I don't think we have an appropriate way to rate them yet. That's about it. No idea why you are hung up on the bullpen velocities as PJ posted that.
I never argued his defense wasn't terrible. In fact I flat out said it was. I think he handles himself well in other areas though and don't think its impossible for him to cut the passed balls from 12 to 6. I think that's within the realm of possibility. That's all.
here's my impression of you since we are trying to show how the other acts. Me. "I don't think the Mets should PAY for Miller to join a pen and be in the mix with 4 others who can probably also handle the job" Dan " You think Miller isn't better than who we got???' Uh no Dan. That's not what I said. Sometimes Im not very clear because Im busy at work or rushed but you rarely give a chance to clarify and when I do you are already 7 posts in flaming on something I didn't even say.
but glad you guys made up. Can't spare any remaining Mets fans fighting anyone other than the Wilpons.
It sounds like the Braves are getting good offers for Upton and moving him next week. I think they're making some interesting moves. I didn't want Markakis at that price (or any price) but could see him working out for ATL for some reason. Their mix was clearly off with how badly they underachieved, and apparently they don't have much in the minors, so dealing 2 guys who they've determined to be non-core players (not getting resigned next year) is fairly low risk.
RE: Can't believe I missed that entire exchange lol
but glad you guys made up. Can't spare any remaining Mets fans fighting anyone other than the Wilpons.
It sounds like the Braves are getting good offers for Upton and moving him next week. I think they're making some interesting moves. I didn't want Markakis at that price (or any price) but could see him working out for ATL for some reason. Their mix was clearly off with how badly they underachieved, and apparently they don't have much in the minors, so dealing 2 guys who they've determined to be non-core players (not getting resigned next year) is fairly low risk.
Also doesn't seem impossible for Markakis to put up Heyward caliber numbers offensively. I have a feeling even when they deal Upton they end up being annoyingly solid. Teheran, Wood, Minor, Miller and I'm guessing they get a pitcher in any Upton deal (Walker was rumored).
Didn't Mets officially finish ahead of the Braves last year?
but glad you guys made up. Can't spare any remaining Mets fans fighting anyone other than the Wilpons.
It sounds like the Braves are getting good offers for Upton and moving him next week. I think they're making some interesting moves. I didn't want Markakis at that price (or any price) but could see him working out for ATL for some reason. Their mix was clearly off with how badly they underachieved, and apparently they don't have much in the minors, so dealing 2 guys who they've determined to be non-core players (not getting resigned next year) is fairly low risk.
Also doesn't seem impossible for Markakis to put up Heyward caliber numbers offensively. I have a feeling even when they deal Upton they end up being annoyingly solid. Teheran, Wood, Minor, Miller and I'm guessing they get a pitcher in any Upton deal (Walker was rumored).
Yup - Freeman, Simmons, Markakis, Gattis, Kimbrel, Tehran, Miller - plus Upton or whatever they get for him. They'll be decent.
is Matt Reynolds. He's coming off a very strong year and has a reputation as a hard worker. He could challenge Flores or Tejada. He may not be ready in April, but he will at some point next season.
Reynolds was our 2nd round pick in 2012. He had a difficult year in 2013, but made adjustments in the off-season and had a very good 2014. Link - ( New Window )
It appeared to me watching him last year that many of his passed balls seemed to be from him trying too hard to frame pitches and having them glance off the edge of his mitt. I know he has gotten some measures of acclaim for his ability to frame pitches, but it appeared to get in his head a bit and hinder his defense. It seems to me that's pretty correctable. The throwing was terrible though, and that I would think will be much more difficult to correct.
It appeared to me watching him last year that many of his passed balls seemed to be from him trying too hard to frame pitches and having them glance off the edge of his mitt. I know he has gotten some measures of acclaim for his ability to frame pitches, but it appeared to get in his head a bit and hinder his defense. It seems to me that's pretty correctable. The throwing was terrible though, and that I would think will be much more difficult to correct.
The throwing was decent until his arm started hurting him towards the end of the year(bone chip)
In a supposed horrible year Puello still hit .300 against lefties last year. He plays excellent defense, has a rocket for an arm in RF, and has speed. Isn't this exactly the kind of player we are looking for? He was also a top 5 prospect a year ago and is now out of options. Im not sure Im so ready to cut him.
RE: One name we don't hear much about lately who might be in the mix
is Matt Reynolds. He's coming off a very strong year and has a reputation as a hard worker. He could challenge Flores or Tejada. He may not be ready in April, but he will at some point next season.
Reynolds was our 2nd round pick in 2012. He had a difficult year in 2013, but made adjustments in the off-season and had a very good 2014. Link - ( New Window )
I'm extremely high on Reynolds. The dude just hits and hits and hits and his defense was MUCH better than expected last year. He's another reason I'm confident in rolling with Flores. We have backup plans and insurance policies if he can't handle the position this year.
in other news Yanks just got Didi for pitcher who has got to be significantly less valuable than Montero (with DB getting one of Detroit's better pitching prospects who seems to be rated similarly to Montero).
I'm fine with passing on Didi, but they need to add something. Going into the season with Flores/Murphy would be a pretty disappointing "punt" in my view - and an ever bigger misuse of time last year by not letting Flores play more.
Tejada, the departed EYJ, Gee, Neise. Cambell's ok, plenty of guys like Goedell and Pill you'll never hear me praise. The high round prospects that were amongst the leaders in their leage last year you will though, sorry.
in other news Yanks just got Didi for pitcher who has got to be significantly less valuable than Montero (with DB getting one of Detroit's better pitching prospects who seems to be rated similarly to Montero).
I'm fine with passing on Didi, but they need to add something. Going into the season with Flores/Murphy would be a pretty disappointing "punt" in my view - and an ever bigger misuse of time last year by not letting Flores play more.
The funny part we heard a million times they were looking for significantly more than Montero. That's the problem with having such a loaded system. Montero isn't even a top 10 prospect for us currently in some rankings so they feel gyped. In the Yankees system Montero is probably top 3 so they feel like they got one of their best players. Just a complete guess. Could be wrong.
I think you are an extremely rational poster here and I agree with almost everything you write but we are in complete disagreement with Flores and Murphy in the middle. It's ok to have opposing views and your certainly not wrong to want better defense. There is absolutely no way the Mets are punting the season if Flores is at SS in my mind. He is likely the best option on the entire market outside of Tulo and Castro and even Castro was horrid defensively up until this past season. I can't think of any rumored player available I'd rather have then Flores and there's plenty out there in agreement with that. If you want to bring in a Miller as another option to add to the mix I'm cool with that, but Flores still would have to get a fair shot in that scenario IMO.
they got a comparably ranked player from Detroit. This has nothing to do with having a loaded system, even if they liked the pitcher from DET better than Montero the Mets could have likely topped that return without including Syndergaard.
In a vacuum it's not insane that the Mets still wouldn't want to do that, I'm just saying that will look bad next year if Gregorius is pumping out web gems in the Bronx while Murphy and Flores are watching grounders just out of their reach routinely turn into base hits.
Not fine with handing it over to him when they could have done that last year - but didn't - and the only imaginable reason why had to be because their scouts who do this 24/7 didn't think Flores could do it.
B. Miller (or Taylor) and Gregorius seem(ed) like decent potential options to compete with Wilmer. Jed Lowrie and Drew seem like decent potential FA options to also provide some insurance - but it's hard to imagine you will be able to convince either of the veterans to sign without guaranteed playing time, so that would likely mean Murphy has been traded.
they got a comparably ranked player from Detroit. This has nothing to do with having a loaded system, even if they liked the pitcher from DET better than Montero the Mets could have likely topped that return without including Syndergaard.
In a vacuum it's not insane that the Mets still wouldn't want to do that, I'm just saying that will look bad next year if Gregorius is pumping out web gems in the Bronx while Murphy and Flores are watching grounders just out of their reach routinely turn into base hits.
Apologies then. I dint even see the details of the trade yet. Just an overall feeling I get though regarding guys not named Syndergaard or Matz. Everyone's gunning for the top guys in every trade scenario and it's ridiculous. And in your scenario id gladly watch Didi and his .200 batting average make a web jem every now and again if Flores is smashing homeruns and driving in runners and Murphy is leading the leage in hits again. Flores made two errors last year and handled everything in his "zone" flawlessly. I'll take that tradeoff 7 days a week. Sorry.
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
Not fine with handing it over to him when they could have done that last year - but didn't - and the only imaginable reason why had to be because their scouts who do this 24/7 didn't think Flores could do it.
B. Miller (or Taylor) and Gregorius seem(ed) like decent potential options to compete with Wilmer. Jed Lowrie and Drew seem like decent potential FA options to also provide some insurance - but it's hard to imagine you will be able to convince either of the veterans to sign without guaranteed playing time, so that would likely mean . Murphy has been traded.
Yeah and I'm furious about that because it had nothing to do with our scouting. Sandy wanted Flores to get the job multiple times. Collins fucked that all up last year in a lost year. The guy is obsessed with Tejada. Flores still showed up even with the jerking around though. Lowrie isn't being signed to be a backup. I like Miller mostly because I think he could platoon with Flores and they'd both get atbats and playing time but I still think Flores would have the higher upside and I don't want him benched and seeing a repeat of last year again. I think the organization needs to give Flores a shot. He offers more upside then any of the guys you are referring to. He could put up a Castro type season and I don't think many would be shocked. You have to let that play out.
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
Can you please at least compare the two players to equal atbats? No idea where you took that from but if it's Flores's last minor leage stint at least include his last 600 atbats which would blow Didi out of the water.
To the teams success is kind of crazy too. We are talking about the 8th hitter. Nobody is penciling Flores into the middle of the lineup and counting on him yet. Anything he gives is a bonus.
Sandy didn't, and still doesn't want Flores to be the starting SS. It's not all on Collins for the Flores hate, there are just more Mets fans that support Flores than guys in the front office3 did. At least some are more open minded than others, and willing to give Flores a shot at 2B.
Oh man. His major league stats? 300 atbats playing off the bench in over two seasons. That's crazy. I wouldn't look at a single thing Wilmer did until he took over SS for real in late August. So those 5 weeks is about the only thing I'd give credibility to because that's all we have. If you compare Wilmer's minor leage stats he is simply a much much better hitter.
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
Come on man. 350 ABs is meaningless, and over the last 25% of those Wilmer OPS'd 800+. So If you want to put anything into tiny sample sizes then you'd have to conclude that his bat DID show up. He wasnt getting consistent ABs before, which is really hard for a rookie to adjust to. I actually have a lot of confidence that Wilmer will hit well for a middle IF this year if he gets consistent ABs.
Sandy didn't, and still doesn't want Flores to be the starting SS. It's not all on Collins for the Flores hate, there are just more Mets fans that support Flores than guys in the front office3 did. At least some are more open minded than others, and willing to give Flores a shot at 2B.
He certainly did over Tejada and forced Collins hand TWiCE. Literally every word out of Sandy's mouth has echoed what I've said. No option available is perfect and compared to most players Flores offers as much upside without trading anyone. Of course he's checking in and would like a Tulo or a Castro but I really do think Sandy would be ok with Flores heading in. I guess we'll see.
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
Come on man. 350 ABs is meaningless, and over the last 25% of those Wilmer OPS'd 800+. So If you want to put anything into tiny sample sizes then you'd have to conclude that his bat DID show up. He wasnt getting consistent ABs before, which is really hard for a rookie to adjust to. I actually have a lot of confidence that Wilmer will hit well for a middle IF this year if he gets consistent ABs.
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
Come on man. 350 ABs is meaningless, and over the last 25% of those Wilmer OPS'd 800+. So If you want to put anything into tiny sample sizes then you'd have to conclude that his bat DID show up. He wasnt getting consistent ABs before, which is really hard for a rookie to adjust to. I actually have a lot of confidence that Wilmer will hit well for a middle IF this year if he gets consistent ABs.
I completely agree, I'm just saying that Flores isn't exactly a proven commodity yet. To bank on him being a better overall SS than Gregorius, who starts off with a big advantage in the field, is not a lock.
ZG side tracks every discussion into arguing against his overly optimistic projections, my only point was that if Sandy doesn't do anything to address the lack of any defense in the middle infield the rest of this offseason, there's a good chance this is one of a handful of transactions that took place that will make us say "why didn't we do that?".
Or to put it another way, I think this team still needs to improve
whereas ZG is ready to pack the truck for ST and secure playoff accommodations right now.
I'm not arguing strongly that we missed out on Gregorius, just that if we sit tight and nitpick everyone who could possibly help this team because there's no perfect solution out there, ultimately going to ST with last year's team + Harvey/Cuddyer it will be mistake.
You just said we are punting the season if we go with Flores, Reynolds, and Tovar. I disagree. I would be flat out pissed off if Didi was our SS in 2015 opposed to Flores. There's no slanting going on.
Needed another huge Impact bat for the middle of the lineup(two before Cudddyer) before we are competitive and you've specifically brought up SS and trying to improve the bat there. If all you want now is a backup glove there you've come off your stance a ton.
Going to be in a little bit of a flux the next year and a half but nobody there is a butcher and they are all good players and options. Herrera will be our second baseman this time next year and Murphy will be gone.
Mets never wanted Didi, want Owings. Mets laughed at Montero for Didi and THOR for Owings. Stewart never expected, or asked for a THOR for Didi swap.
I actually thought the DB were asking for Syndergaard in a Didi trade. Wasn't this just brought up a week ago? In any event, Montero is worth more anyway. Didi was BAD last year.
but as it is often the case you're delusional. Last season before Duda established himself and obviously before Cuddyer signed I said they needed a middle of the order hitter. Since the Cuddyer signing all I've said is they should add 1 reliable every day player - regardless of position - since there are currently so many unknowns be it players coming back from injuries or young/not yet fully established. An Alexei Ramirez type would go a long way, especially since their biggest hole to anyone other than you is the middle infield defense.
Not making a move to try to add to the roster wouldn't be punting on the season, it would be punting on the rest of the offseason, which is what I strongly disagree with because I don't think this team has an elite bullpen or an offense on par with the Dodgers, as you do. And for the last time re:Didi - what the DB wanted is irrelevant because they could have tried to top what the Yanks gave DET. I can't say Didi will definitely outperform Flores but I also can't see any reason why having both compete in ST would have been a bad thing.
ZG - I'm not getting sucked in on a back and forth
but as it is often the case you're delusional. Last season before Duda established himself and obviously before Cuddyer signed I said they needed a middle of the order hitter. Since the Cuddyer signing all I've said is they should add 1 reliable every day player - regardless of position - since there are currently so many unknowns be it players coming back from injuries or young/not yet fully established. An Alexei Ramirez type would go a long way, especially since their biggest hole to anyone other than you is the middle infield defense.
Not making a move to try to add to the roster wouldn't be punting on the season, it would be punting on the rest of the offseason, which is what I strongly disagree with because I don't think this team has an elite bullpen or an offense on par with the Dodgers, as you do. And for the last time re:Didi - what the DB wanted is irrelevant because they could have tried to top what the Yanks gave DET. I can't say Didi will definitely outperform Flores but I also can't see any reason why having both compete in ST would have been a bad thing.
Except me being dillusional of course. Still think your contradicting yourself a little by saying we need to add another every good player and also saying your fine with Didi and Flores "competing" . Having an unknown with upside and adding a worst unknown with worst upside isn't the difference in me being ready to go into 2015 but to each their own.
Is no longer available and if he was they want at least Syndergaard. No thank you No thank and No thank you. They can have him.
This much we agree on. But to be call this offseason a success the bare minimum, IMO, they still need to add a SS that guarantees Tejada never again sees the starting lineup and further solidify the bench/bullpen. I don't think either is unreasonable or unattainable, especially given the market value just set by today's trade.
It's gonna be a hard sell to anyone that this season is about winning
Is no longer available and if he was they want at least Syndergaard. No thank you No thank and No thank you. They can have him.
This much we agree on. But to be call this offseason a success the bare minimum, IMO, they still need to add a SS that guarantees Tejada never again sees the starting lineup and further solidify the bench/bullpen. I don't think either is unreasonable or unattainable, especially given the market value just set by today's trade.
Ok and that's in line with what I've said too. I expect a left handed pitcher brought in for the bullpen along with a right handed bat for the bench as well. I've said I'd be ok if a Miller is brought in to compete with Flores and personally I'd be happier if Tejada was off the team as well so Terry isn't tempted. I don't think those three pieces are the difference between an 85 win team and a 95 win team but it's all good.
Im legitimately excited about him being our SS. Significantly moreso than Grandy in the OF.
Im okay with the Mets not trying to solve all their problems in time for 4/1/15. If the team looks strong we can make a midseason trade. Or maybe 2015 is still a transitional year, taking the place of 2014 (which was essentially sabotaged as our two best players were injured).
And so is counting/projecting wins with a team that has so many high variable players. Is David Wright going to be worth 1 win or 6? Harvey? Can Thor or Montero (or Matz) add 3 wins like JdG did last year? etc. etc. They could make a great deal and miss the playoffs or make no deal and make the playoffs - there's no way to know right now because it's hard to predict the performance of our 2 most important players since they are both coming off injuries.
What we do know right now is that the bullpen needs to be better, the defense needs to be better, and the offense could stand to get better also. To do nothing to address those needs (or purely make bargain basement deals) would be more of the "small market Mets" because the only reason to not do any of those things is $.
And to hear them tell it, they'll spend more when the seats fill (as if that's our fault, but I digress).
So doing nothing is self-defeating to them.
Yup. I'm not entirely advocating that these are the exact moves they should have made, but if they were the team that added a former top prospect at SS and the most coveted relief pitcher in the market it would have been a huge boost to the organization. As it is it's just a ho-hum day for the Yankees, and a likely appetizer to signing a Cy Young candidate.
The Mets cannot put the cherry on this offseason with Craig Breslow and then expect anyone to take their winning efforts seriously.
Over and over and over again. Yeah they can because in my mind we had one collossal hole in the offseason and we filled it with a guy that was the reigning batting champ a year ago. A guy who will likely be the best hitter in our lineup and have an "Olerud like" effect on this team if he stays healthy. SS was a need going into last year. Going into this year? Not so much. The team is a thousand times better then the one that started 2014 and it's not because we are adding Cuddyer and Harvey. The whole team has changed and improved in a year.
I like Wilmer. I am a fan of his. I just don't think the Mets are a playoff team right now. I think they're close but there's not enough there for me. Not enough to pad against a few injuries or down years. The Mets will need almost everything to break right and I hate going into a year relying on that. You need room for error.
I'd like to see at least another minor upgrade or two. Regardless of where they come.
I like Wilmer. I am a fan of his. I just don't think the Mets are a playoff team right now. I think they're close but there's not enough there for me. Not enough to pad against a few injuries or down years. The Mets will need almost everything to break right and I hate going into a year relying on that. You need room for error.
I'd like to see at least another minor upgrade or two. Regardless of where they come.
Exactly how I feel. Miller just agreed with Yanks, 4 years 36M.
I like Wilmer. I am a fan of his. I just don't think the Mets are a playoff team right now. I think they're close but there's not enough there for me. Not enough to pad against a few injuries or down years. The Mets will need almost everything to break right and I hate going into a year relying on that. You need room for error.
I'd like to see at least another minor upgrade or two. Regardless of where they come.
I think we are all onboard with the minor upgrade or two. It's the major upgrades people feel we need I thought was in question. Moncada would be great to add even if he isn't a shortstop like some are now saying.
cost the Mets when he started? I still don't get the Todd Hundley in Left Field with the ball bouncing off his head comparison to WF's SS play
This is how I feel and it's so ridiculous. People act like we are asking Duda to play SS next year. Lol. Flores has been a SS almost his entire life and after getting in very good shape last year played the position very well. Do people not understand how rare it is to have a 20 homerun 80 RBI bat at SS? It's almost unheard of. I'll gladly sacrifice his whopping 2 mistakes.
but Flores came out on fire in Venezuela Winter Ball
That and of course will reportedly report to St. Lucie as soon as he gets back to get with Barwis again. Did wonders last year. The kid works hard. Now imagine an entire offseason actually preparing for SS instead of being yanked there at the end of spring training without notice last year.
but rather something that always bothers me. Can somebody please explain to me why pitching and defense go together??
Wouldn't offense be much more important to a very good pitching staff then to have very good gloves opposed to just good gloves? Wouldn't a win be far more likely if a a Harvey was pitching and he had 5 runs of support opposed to 2???
With LESS run support aren't mistakes magnified and more pressure added?
If you have 5 outstanding pitchers, wouldn't defense be LESS important? If there is the occasional mistake in play, isn't the chances they'll get the next guy out much more likely then if they had less pitching?
Im really not trying to be flip. Has there ever been a study on this?
are all pretty much on the same page. Basically we are split on Flores and that's fine. There are those that feel he isn't a SS and we are going into a season with a huge question mark and I get it. The Flores supporters likely feel better about our chances next year.
Eric feels we are an 85 win team. I feel we are an 88 win team. That's basically the difference and range in this entire forum. I also admittedly would think we were an 85 team as well if I didn't believe in Flores as much(and Reynolds actually) so there really isn't much of a disconnect at all.
are all pretty much on the same page. Basically we are split on Flores and that's fine. There are those that feel he isn't a SS and we are going into a season with a huge question mark and I get it. The Flores supporters likely feel better about our chances next year.
Eric feels we are an 85 win team. I feel we are an 88 win team. That's basically the difference and range in this entire forum. I also admittedly would think we were an 85 team as well if I didn't believe in Flores as much(and Reynolds actually) so there really isn't much of a disconnect at all.
At the very least, having Flores and Reynolds mean that we don't need to overpay. Giving up Thor for Didi would be ridiculous.
Why in God's name is Terry Collins still managing the Mets?
Does Alderson undervalue a manager so much that he leaves this putz in charge?
probably because he managed a minor league team and they did relatively well considering, while also developing some core type players. And the team likes him and plays hard for him.
When a team sucks ass, its easy to find "mistakes" in every game that rationalize firing the manager, and maybe the team wants to give him a chance to manage when they have a decent roster to see what he can accomplish while he's in charge.
He's done nothing to make anyone think he is an amazing manager who gets his teams to exceed expectations by great lengths but he also hasn't done anything to make any rational fan think he isn't capable of managing a decent or good team. They signed him on to manage for a bunch of years and maybe want to see how he does with a team that isn't predicted to finish under .500. It's not so insane outside of the media and the irrational, emotional, fire everyone if you aren't in the playoffs fanbase. Clearly many people are incapable of separating real expectations from dream scenarios of far exceeding predictions. He gets a year to manage a team with a real MLB roster (ideally) and if things dont go extremely well, he'll be replaced. I know most people think its an awful idea to be reasonable and give the guy a chance but some of us don't think it's such an insanely awful idea. During his time we've seen some legit improvement from some young players and the team plays until the last inning of the last game. For those of us who think the players matter dramatically more than the manager, keeping him in charge isn't so unimaginable. He didn't exactly get great performances from Wright and Granderson either and those players are essential to being in any conversation of playoff contention.
In any case, sorry for him remaining the manager. I'm sure you think another guy could have prevented Wright from getting hurt and Granderson from having 2-3 months of awful performance. If those guys play well and Harvey returns to form and Degrom and Wheeler continue to grow, it could help any manager on earth look way smarter.
personally think manager is overrated by fans. I'm not going to rehash my argument but studies have been done that suggest a manager outside of the greatest of all time has almost zero impact on overall record.
Collins last chance. Like Seth said, they are likely giving him one last shot with a real roster but it was pretty public that the front office was split just a couple months ago about whether or not he should even be retained for this upcoming season. I don't think Sandy enjoys having to over-rule his decision making every couple of months.
I agree in the overall scheme a manager likely doesn't have much of an impact on an overall record(especially across the board), but Ive also heard a good manager can swing a record by a few wins and a bad manager can swing it the other way by a few wins. That could essentially be a 6 games swing.
Our Pythagorean Record had us finishing with 83 wins. We finished with 79. Does Terry have anything to do with that? He might. We all can agree his bullpen management drives us crazy sometimes. Did that not have any effect in all the one run losses we had early in the season? Most agree he basically ruined Byrdak, Feliciano, and Rice. He clearly favors veterans which shouldn't have been the case when we were clearly rebuilding.
Im going to try to not think about it this year. Collins knows he has to play Flores over Tejada. Im going to try to enjoy this season. If this team underperforms this upcoming season he is gone no matter what the excuses are .
Biggest mistake Mets made this offseason is not even considering Maddon. He isnt a savior, but the cost per win of a top manGer is SOOO much less expensive than the cost per win a player will add. You would think this front office would appreciate that. Instead, they didn't even discuss it. Not the best message to the fans.
Biggest mistake Mets made this offseason is not even considering Maddon. He isnt a savior, but the cost per win of a top manGer is SOOO much less expensive than the cost per win a player will add. You would think this front office would appreciate that. Instead, they didn't even discuss it. Not the best message to the fans.
The Mets weren't paying Collins AND another manager (Maddon got 25 million).
TC is a middle of the pack Manager. No big deal if he stays, no big deal if he's replaced. This isn't Art Howe II. He can't hit, he can't run, he can't play defense and he can't pitch. He lost more than he has won only because of the shit show he had to manage. If they replaced him today I couldn't care less
Honestly. Do you think any business would not hire the best manager in their business over $200k a year? Pay Madden 5/25 and Collins $1mm next year to five your minor leagues =$26/m. Unfortunately, it wAssnt a money issue. A very, very poor decision in my mind.
Backman is so amazing he hasn't received a single interview for a managerial job since coming back to organized ball in 2010. The rumors of Davey Johnson putting him on his bench and eventually replacing him never happened. Nobody has run to interview him like some of these other guys you always hear brought up. In fact, I'd say there is almost no chance he's the next manager if/should Collins be canned. A real Mets fan shouldn't be hoping for Collins to be canned this year, it means the Mets had a bad season because you know they aren't going to fire him if they win 82-83 games this year.
Honestly. Do you think any business would not hire the best manager in their business over $200k a year? Pay Madden 5/25 and Collins $1mm next year to five your minor leagues =$26/m. Unfortunately, it wAssnt a money issue. A very, very poor decision in my mind.
BS excuse? We can discuss reality or dreams. The Mets weren't going to pay Collins and Maddon roughly 7 million in 2015.
per year? They weren't paying ANY manager 5 million per (plus incentives) Collins money just adds to that. You honestly believe had they fired Collins and Maddon came free they would have outbid the Cubs money wise? Honestly?
Guys that never coached 1 inning can become a Baseball Manager. Can't do it in Football or Hockey.
Football coach has MASSIVE impact. You could probably stick the best football coach in the country at some shit college and through the proper scheme improve them considerably. Even the NBA, at least the coach is calling plays, exploiting weaknesses, and consistent substitutions. In the MLB calling for a lefty to face a lefty or pinch hit your power guy for a Tejada.. who couldn't do that? Most of the managers value is in the clubhouse.
RE: I thought Miller was expected to get a big more than that.
Yes, I get that the Mets weren't any good under Art Howe (and the talent under Howe was pretty bad too) but Howe did pretty damn good in his last four years with the A's. The type of success that Terry Collins could never dream of.
There's a reason that Terry Collins as sucked EVERYWHERE he has managed. It's because he's a bad coach...not middle of the road...just bad. I can appreciate those of you that think the manager has little impact on the game. I just happen to disagree.
Collins is way worse than Howe. And we get the privilege of having him for a 5th year. How this guy is on his fifth year of managing a MLB ballclub is maddening. NO major league club would have kept this clown this long. I really don't understand how any reasonable person can listen to this bumbling fool speak after games and feel comfortable with him as the manager. Mind numbing.
And if it comes down to spending on the team or the manager I'm ok with it. I just hope they have a good backup plan in mind in case they start out slow, because Terry has about 2 months to show this team can be competitive or else he has to get canned. Still don't get the fascination with Wally Backman, but do think the minor league manager (AA?) Dan mentioned a while ago is a really intriguing possibility.
That's kinda my point. Best manager in the game was available, yet wasn't even considered. It was because they don't see the value in paying "bug" money for a manager, best or not. It had zero to do with not being willing to pay Collins AND Maddon in 2015. My BS excuse comment was re not willing to pay both. Problem is they weren't willing to pay Maddon, had nothing to do with Collins being under contract.
plus Leyba probably does surpass or match Thor.. but I can't imagine the Mets had no deal that match or surpassed that without Thor.
Hate to disagree with you since I dont know the players DET gave up, but none of the write ups suggest this. Neither is a top 100 prospect (and Thor is top 10-15). All they got for those two was Greene, who is 26 and people seem to regard as a back end guy with #3 as a CEILING. Yankees fans dont seem really broken up over losing Greene. So if Detroit gave up Thor+ value for Greene, they got fleeced, but Im not hearing any outrage out of the Motor City over this.
You know a lot more baseball than me, so Im curious as to how you get to your opinion (or if it was just a flip statement).
Howe was a puppet for Beane. They couldn't justify firing him because they kept winning so they got rid of him by trading him to the Mets. He was a BUFFOON. Collins like him or not isn't.
lol @ Moneyball - such an overrated concept that was
sensationalized b/c of the book/movie. But I don't need to get into that now. Are you trying to tell me that Billy Beane was in the dugout during the games making all of the in-game decisions? I guess you are the type that believes everything you read/see in books/movies. But I'm sure someone with as big an ego as Beane certainly wouldn't exaggerate things to make himself look better. That never happens, right? Two straight 100+ win seasons and the manager gets no credit. Okay.
And Collins isn't a buffoon? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. This is the same guy that told the media that Tejada gave the Mets the best chance to win - this while Tejada was deep in a 3 for 34 slump and one of the worst offensive players in the league...only to be called out by a beat writer. Yeah, he's a regular member of Mensa. Come on, man.
This article is over a month old, but if you haven't read it, it's worthwhile. It's incredible that a team which is deep in pitching on a major league level can be so deep in pitching in the minors. For example, at # 18 we have -
Quote:
18. BRAD WIECK, LHP, Brooklyn (A-) (6-9, 255)
BORN: Oct. 14, 1991 | DRAFTED: 7th round (2014)
BEST OUTCOME: Setup reliever
ETA: 2017
Brad Wieck struck out 39 hitters in 25.2 innings during his debut season in 2014. He allowed 17 hits and walked six hitters. Lefthanders batted just .114 against him, but his low three-quarters delivery was no picnic for righthanded batters either, who hit .220. He throws a fastball around 92-95 mph, a changeup and a sweeping slider, which he developed after having Tommy John surgery in 2010.
for the mets . Go sign David Roberson since no SS available is worthy of the $10 mil a year that Roberson is looking for. Then you could trade Mejia with a SP for a SS Link - ( New Window )
for the mets . Go sign David Roberson since no SS available is worthy of the $10 mil a year that Roberson is looking for. Then you could trade Mejia with a SP for a SS Link - ( New Window )
but rather something that always bothers me. Can somebody please explain to me why pitching and defense go together??
Wouldn't offense be much more important to a very good pitching staff then to have very good gloves opposed to just good gloves? Wouldn't a win be far more likely if a a Harvey was pitching and he had 5 runs of support opposed to 2???
With LESS run support aren't mistakes magnified and more pressure added?
If you have 5 outstanding pitchers, wouldn't defense be LESS important? If there is the occasional mistake in play, isn't the chances they'll get the next guy out much more likely then if they had less pitching?
Im really not trying to be flip. Has there ever been a study on this?
Because every "outstanding" pitcher is not a strikeout pitcher; some of them pitch to contact (ie, groundball pitchers, etc). Thus having fielders who can, you know, actually field the ball are key.
It's another thing to come off as indecisive. And as much as his patience has helped when he was a seller in trades, it's hurt when Sandy has tried being a buyer. Two major holes could have and should have been plugged mid season and weren't.
It's another thing to come off as indecisive. And as much as his patience has helped when he was a seller in trades, it's hurt when Sandy has tried being a buyer. Two major holes could have and should have been plugged mid season and weren't.
I think other teams know the Mets have nothing and they're holding them up for a huge overpay. It just isn't a good baseball decision at the moment, I think.
I think other teams know the Mets have nothing and they're holding them up for a huge overpay. It just isn't a good baseball decision at the moment, I think.
That's what I interpret as patience. Some teams would force it because they need a SS. Signing Stephen Drew for 2 years 20M lat off-season would have been brutal.
that's the kind of thing I mean by being patient. Trading for Didi Gregorious if it cost deGrom, Thor, or other chip would have been brutal.
Being patient is probably the best for the long-term health of the franchise.
just my 2c, but like I said, this is year 5 of a 5 year plan (in my opinion), so results need to start being realized.
I think he likes the 2 Mariners guys at the right price
Widely reported they discussed Niese for Miller last year and that they match up for discussions this year. Both would be upgrades in the field, both draw walks, both put the ball in play.
If a move with SEA doesn't happen I think both Drew and Lowrie will remain in the conversation if they're waiting out there in January, though I don't see Sandy being willing to go beyond 1 year (maybe a vesting 2nd year option for Lowrie).
The only team with a SS rumored available I could see possibly being intrigued by Mejia is Chicago because their bullpen was terrible last year and so far they've only added Duke. They are trying to compete this year so they're in no immediate rush to trade Ramirez, but that said Gee, Mejia, Tejada is package that could get them thinking since it would fill 2 holes at the expense of a 33 year old SS. Though that opens up a pretty big hole in the Mets BP.
but rather something that always bothers me. Can somebody please explain to me why pitching and defense go together??
Wouldn't offense be much more important to a very good pitching staff then to have very good gloves opposed to just good gloves? Wouldn't a win be far more likely if a a Harvey was pitching and he had 5 runs of support opposed to 2???
With LESS run support aren't mistakes magnified and more pressure added?
If you have 5 outstanding pitchers, wouldn't defense be LESS important? If there is the occasional mistake in play, isn't the chances they'll get the next guy out much more likely then if they had less pitching?
Im really not trying to be flip. Has there ever been a study on this?
Because every "outstanding" pitcher is not a strikeout pitcher; some of them pitch to contact (ie, groundball pitchers, etc). Thus having fielders who can, you know, actually field the ball are key.
You clearly missed my entire point. Obviously great defensive players are better than good defensive players and good defensive players are better then average defensive players. In a perfect world every team would like 8 gold glovers. In reality however, the true two way players in the league are what we call super stars. The rest are either one or the other. My question is, what is MORE important to an excellent pitching staff? Gold glovers at every position or run support? I honestly don't know the answer. Im guessing its the offense but I'd love to see some actual data on it.
And as to your comment that had nothing to do with what I was saying. The Mets are building a power pitching high strikeout staff anyway.
According to Sandy. The truth or posturing before the meetings? Probably a little of both. If he claims he's good with Flores he appears in the driver seat heading in. Teams are less likely to ask for the moon if we don't appear desperate. Who knows though. I think Sandy does like Flores too. Link - ( New Window )
All the stuff that teams throw out there. Some of the BS reporters make up just to be a step ahead. The smoke. What is real and what isnt? A whisper turns into facts. Yet the big trades always seem to come out of left field and no one sees it coming. Winter meetings and NFL draft, two of the most entertaining times of the sports year.
in return for Samardja. Real interesting offseason for Oakland.
I think more likely it's prospects. A's seemingly are rebuilding this season.
Sale, Quintana (easily one of the top 10 most underrated SP in baseball), Samardizja + the impact of Rodon second half... White Sox could surprise this year.
in return for Samardja. Real interesting offseason for Oakland.
I think more likely it's prospects. A's seemingly are rebuilding this season.
Sale, Quintana (easily one of the top 10 most underrated SP in baseball), Samardizja + the impact of Rodon second half... White Sox could surprise this year.
IDK, then why sign Butler? Why not get more of a prospect centerpiece than Lowrie for Donaldson? I think Beane's doing a half rebuild to recoup some of the prospects he dealt last year while still trying to field a good team.
I don't know anything about the White Sox system but if it is more of a prospect package, wouldn't Rondon be a likely candidate to return?
don't think there is any way on the planet the White Sox are trading Rodon for 1 year of Jeff Samardizja. That would be one of the worst trades in recent history. Rodon is one of the top 5 best SP prospects in baseball and the White Sox are in a similar position as the Mets. Improving farm, some good young pieces, added a vet (LaRoche). I'd be blown away if Rodon is in the deal in fact.
"Top prospects Marcus Semien and Tim Anderson would seemingly be likely As targets in a potential Samardzija deal, but Nightingale didnt get into any specifics in terms of their asking price."
The Mets, with quite an impressive stockpile of young starting pitchers, are fielding trade inquiries on veteran starter Dillon Gee, Jon Niese and Bartolo Colon, with the expectation one of them will be traded fairly soon.
for Oakland. Looking around at teams that had 2 possible SS's he was one of the guys who would have been great for the Mets, though it would have likely cost too much.
Don't see why they'd trade Samardja now unless it's a big overpayment though. They gave up a huge prospect to get him in season last year, if I were them I'd hold out for the same until the last possible moment (gotta think his value could go higher in season again?).
guess we will see but I don't think there is any chance in the world Rodon is involved. Teams just don't give up guys like that for a guy 1 year from FA. Rodon potentially could even make the team out of ST (Unlikely but possible), it's sort of a BS thing to say since it's rare to begin with but Sale/Quintana/Rodon likely will give them the best trio of LHP in baseball. Hahn has done a very nice job building that franchise up. As I said I think they are a sleeper team if they add a guy like Samardjiza.
Rubin said he's hearing the Mets are iffy on Kang at SS.
be lying if I knew anything about Wendle beyond the numbers but on paper nice deal for Cleveland.
Not comparing Moss/Murphy, but if that's all the Mets got back for Murphy I'd be pretty underwhelmed.
I'd actually be furious if that's all they got because Murphy with a year resembling his 2014 would be worthy of offering the QO (and he would likely decline it) in favor of a multiple year deal. The more I think about it the more I think Murphy ends up wit less money than people think unless a team views him as a 3b because there simply aren't a ton of spots open at 2b around the league
Thing with Murphy is for the Mets as a league average or better regular he's a "big" player but you have roughly 10-12 other guys who are as valuable or better and then teams like the Padres who are more likely to roll the dice on a Gyorko/Spangenberg type or Blue Jays now with Travis etc than give Murphy some "big" contract. If Murphy is going to get "paid" I think his best chance would be finding a team that thinks he can be a solid 3b. I see the
-Astros, Red Sox, Tigers, Mariners, Twins, Indians, Phillies, Diamondbacks (Hill makes big money through 2016), Dodgers, Pirates (and a few others already "out") before we even get a Blue Jay, Padre, Giants situation where they have young guys they likely roll with. I could see the Murphy market (at least at 2b) being very limited. In his favor is Kendrick is the only other "good" 2b who is projected to hit the market next year.
Could definitely see him on the Giants if they don't end up with Headley.
Someone floated Murphy for Affeldt. For the 2015 Mets maybe it makes some sense but beyond that it really doesn't. If I'm the Giants I'd deal for Murphy (vs. signing Headley) and put the money toward Lester. Giants system is pretty "meh" on paper but I'm sure I could find a realistic deal to my liking lol
Didn't realize he was coming off a hip injury. Add that to age (31) and likely getting 7M+ in arb.
Yeah it's to clear salary (though Wendle apparently has been compared to Murphy) in terms of upside and the A's tend to do well with these grinder types. That said I still like it a lot for the Indians. Power isn't so easy to find. Beane seemingly has identified a market inefficiency loading up on flawed power guys and then spinning them.
I'm optimistic he will, but Sandy really needs be active in the market to make a couple more additions to this roster. Cuddyer is a great start, but in all honesty he's almost as risky of a signing as Moises Alou was, though he's a couple years younger. A real strong 4th OF'er would be nice and obviously an upgrade at SS.
Nimmo was one of the best players in the Florida State League during the first half of the 2014 season. He struggled after a midseason promotion to the Eastern League, but much of that decline could be attributed to less luck when he put the ball in playhis power numbers and strikeout rate were roughly in line with what he did in the Florida State League, but he went from hitting .401 when he put the ball in play in the FSL to posting a .283 BABIP in the EL.
Nimmo has made significant strides in the past two years by adding strength. He now can sting the ball when he works himself into hitters counts, and he has the knowledge of the strike zone to get into those hitter counts. He might not ever have enough power to fit as a profile corner outfielder, but hes shown scouts that he should be able to stick in center field, where his on-base skills and gap power both would play well.
As far as an ETA, Nimmo could put himself in position for a call-up to New York with a strong first half. Hes not going to push Juan Lagares out of center field, but he could play left field in the short term. His arm wont really play in center field.
Long term, he does look to be a top-of-the-order hitter, although one who could grow into a middle-of-the-lineup role as he continues to mature and gain strength.
Matthew Cerrone @matthewcerrone #HotStove: White Sox want an ace, like Samardzija, or at least @Wheelerpro45 or @JdeGrom19 for Alexei Ramirez http://on.sny.tv/1wTmmWt
no knock on you but Cerrone is quoting himself. I don't take his word in any trade rumors, especially not one with no Mets relationship. I'm openly not a fan of Cerrone but when he quotes himself on his own site... might be his most annoying feature.
Just saw it on twitter and assumed that was from a source
I don't know how that site went so far downhill so quickly. Toby and Brender are good but Cerrone brings nothing to the table.
Yeah both Toby and Brender are good. I didn't like the changes to Toby's site but it sounds like they were sort of forced upon him. I liked the forum feature ala BBI.
I think makes the most sense going to a big revenue AL team that is open minded about slotting him around the diamond. The sort of team that has 11 guys for 9 lineup spots, and will play Murphy at 2B, 3B, DH.
No interest in Wheeler or deGrom for Ramirez. Value may be right (who knows) but Mets dont need a "last piece" type trade an that is what it would be. Plus, who knows whether all our young stud pitchers will pan out -- would hate to bail on Wheeler and then it turns out that Harvey is diminished and deGrom was a flash in the pan.
I think makes the most sense going to a big revenue AL team that is open minded about slotting him around the diamond. The sort of team that has 11 guys for 9 lineup spots, and will play Murphy at 2B, 3B, DH.
No interest in Wheeler or deGrom for Ramirez. Value may be right (who knows) but Mets dont need a "last piece" type trade an that is what it would be. Plus, who knows whether all our young stud pitchers will pan out -- would hate to bail on Wheeler and then it turns out that Harvey is diminished and deGrom was a flash in the pan.
"No interest in Wheeler or deGrom for Ramirez. Value may be right (who knows) but Mets dont need a "last piece" type trade an that is what it would be."
100% on the ball. This is probably a "fair" deal but not one the Mets should ever consider. Maybe a year from now Harvey is 100% back, deGrom, Wheeler, Syndergaard and Matz are all really good and you make a deal like that for a "last piece" but not here, not now.
Andy Martino @MartinoNYDN 1h 1 hour ago
Mixed signals overall from #Rockies on Tulo. Word from owners meetings was not available, but they were curious about #mets today.
It's a massive risk, but I'd do Tulo for Thor. They'd obviously have to dump Murphy and Colon elsewhere to clear $, but I'd still do it without a second thought. Put Flores at 2nd to start the year, if Tulo gets hurt you have Tejada on the bench for a short term, or you could shift Flores to SS and call-up Herrera. Reynolds also another option.
If there's 1 team out there that can take the risk, having both the depth of prospect assets to get him and some decent internal fallback options to offset injury risk, it's this team.
1.Lagares 2.Granderson 3.Tulo 4.Wright 5.Duda 6.Cuddyer 7.TdA 8.Flores - that would be one hell of a lineup.
Also Francesa just said he heard they are interested in "the Cuban SS". Not sure if he meant Moncada or if he was misspeaking and meant the Kang report?
passing on Kang based on everything I have read. I retract that if the price is in the "meh, we tried" range ala 2 years 7-8 per with options. I'd be all-in on Moncada, I'd pay the piper.
RE: I guess it's the state of the market, but that's a ballsy asking price
And assuming the Mets salary structure isn't changing dramatically? BR estimates them around 98M right now. Let's say the cap is 105M all in.
I would. Tulo is absolutely a major risk but he's a GREAT player (including defensively which should mean he ages well in terms of value). Tulo would be like adding Piazza again. It would excite the fanbase, it would make them instant playoff contenders, it would improve the on field product and quite honestly would give them trade options with 2 of Murphy/Herrera/Flores being trade bait going forward.
I like Thor a ton but pitchers get hurt, pitching is easier to find in todays game and I think it's time to have some balls. In todays market Nimmo being a league average or slightly better regular would be a pretty sweet deal, if that's "all" Thor is.. you can find/buy those kind of guys. I'm NOT saying Thor will only be that. I'm suggesting it's a gamble I'm willing to make.
all rail against cost, or worst case... how about the upside to adding a superstar? The upside to Matt Harvey knowing his A++ defensive SS makes a diving stop, throws out the runner, Harvey pumping his fist in the air and pointing at Tulo as the crowd celebrates?
plus any other 1 minor leaguer. Would be really hard to swallow both Thor and Matz. But I'd also immediately flip Murphy for AA/AAA prospects to replenish what we lost a bit. Tulo at SS and Flores at 2B (and if that fails, Herrera/Reynolds).
I can't separate the good things about Tulo from his crushing injuries
I've already lived through a broken down Jim Fergosi for Nolan Ryan. Tulo is a couple of years younger than Fergosi was but he keeps breaking down, I'll pass
More than anything this team needs to make a move to show they are committed to winning (and with limited options out there, adding Tulo would be the biggest one they'd ever be able to make). It's all well and good to stockpile young players with great pedigrees, but there are countless teams that have had rosters overflowing with young talent not actually won until they made some key veteran additions (kind of like Royals with Shields).
Adam Rubin is an Islander fan and he actually made this point a couple days ago and he's exactly right. The Mets need to make their Boychuk/Leddy moves. The NHL is obviously a very different beast, but if you look at the Islanders their roster has been pretty similar for 2-3 years. Then one day they traded for 2 guys in their prime at a position of need with winning pedigrees. I don't think either has ever been an all star, but it completely energized both the fanbase and team to start the season the way they have. Hopefully the Wilpons can find it within themselves to follow suit. Pretty sure Isles attendance is by far the highest it's been in over a decade too.
RE: I can't separate the good things about Tulo from his crushing injuries
Anthony DiComo @AnthonyDiComo 3m3 minutes ago
Sandy Alderson on #Mets payroll, currently around $100 million: "I don't expect it to go up too much, if at all." Says it may go down.
all rail against cost, or worst case... how about the upside to adding a superstar? The upside to Matt Harvey knowing his A++ defensive SS makes a diving stop, throws out the runner, Harvey pumping his fist in the air and pointing at Tulo as the crowd celebrates?
The problem is, Dan - he's played in 47, 126 and 91 games in the last three seasons. Not to mention he'll be 30 soon - it's not the like injury situation will magically get better...
Anthony DiComo @AnthonyDiComo 3m3 minutes ago
Sandy Alderson on #Mets payroll, currently around $100 million: "I don't expect it to go up too much, if at all." Says it may go down.
He chooses not to spend!! He has room!!! Maybe not 150 but 110-120!!!
Anthony DiComo @AnthonyDiComo 3m3 minutes ago
Sandy Alderson on #Mets payroll, currently around $100 million: "I don't expect it to go up too much, if at all." Says it may go down.
LOL - they play in the biggest market in the league, they their payroll may go DOWN, or best case stay the same?!?!
all rail against cost, or worst case... how about the upside to adding a superstar? The upside to Matt Harvey knowing his A++ defensive SS makes a diving stop, throws out the runner, Harvey pumping his fist in the air and pointing at Tulo as the crowd celebrates?
The problem is, Dan - he's played in 47, 126 and 91 games in the last three seasons. Not to mention he'll be 30 soon - it's not the like injury situation will magically get better...
If he doesn't have any lingering structural issues it could - more regular rest days, being on a team that's not going to be in last every year (hopefully), different training plan. Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery. Who would have thought Grant Hill would play more games in his age 34, 35, 36 seasons than any other 3 years of his career (missing only 3 games total)? Frank Gore had so many major knee injuries in college they wondered if he'd ever get drafted, and now in 10 years he's missed like 10 total games.
Whom? They could use any help? Are we really going to play this game again? They couldn't have used Miller? They couldn't use a SS? Their bench on paper is awful etc. You really think Sandy Alderson is choosing to limit spending at around 100 million? For what reason?
16 teams spent at least 100 million, 12 spent at least 110 million, 10 spent at least 130. Somehow all of these other teams have found ways to spend money.
100" is such Mets math it's not even funny. Adam had them at
66+ Parnell, Cuddyer, Gee, Tejada
Baseball reference has them estimated at 98M so I don't think he's too far off, mostly just arbitration guys. Not nearly as bad as when they were pencil f'ing the Jason Bay money and Wright's deferred money and acting like that stuff included investing in the on-field team.
are you serious that he has room/money he chooses not to use?
I don't want the Mets to spend for the sake of spending, you know they're in NY so they should spend. I think that's crap, but I want him to be able to spend if players are needed.
Sandy DOES NOT have a history of being thrifty, his A's teams were among the highest payrolls in MLB. It wasn't until the owner died and the new owner said to slash payroll (well you saw the movie/read the book probably - you know the history).
are you serious that he has room/money he chooses not to use?
I don't want the Mets to spend for the sake of spending, you know they're in NY so they should spend. I think that's crap, but I want him to be able to spend if players are needed.
Sandy DOES NOT have a history of being thrifty, his A's teams were among the highest payrolls in MLB. It wasn't until the owner died and the new owner said to slash payroll (well you saw the movie/read the book probably - you know the history).
PJ,
I was being sarcastic. Some on here have made that claim.
Not sure if you guys discussed this but Collins just tweeted he won't name Flores the starter and still thinks Tejada has a shot at it! OMG. Fuck this jackass. Once again contradicting everything Sandy says.
Mike Vorkunov (@Mike_Vorkunov)
12/8/14, 5:04 PM
Terry Collins on the #Mets starting SS: "I'm not gonna name Wilmer Flores just yet." Says job is up for grabs with Ruben Tejada
Mike Vorkunov (@Mike_Vorkunov)
12/8/14, 5:04 PM
Terry Collins on the #Mets starting SS: "I'm not gonna name Wilmer Flores just yet." Says job is up for grabs with Ruben Tejada
It would be nice if the mgr and gm were on the same page. Collins is literally the dumbest manager in all of baseball. But some people dont give a shit who the manager is. Yeah, right.
Terry Collins should be wearing a dunce cap instead of a ball cap.
to Collins, hopefully he's just trying to motivate Flores and Tejada. It's not a bad thing if both of them work hard in the offseason and come to camp ready to give 100% to win the job.
I think this is Collins way of scaring Sandy into action
It's also easily the most repugnant part of him as manager - the gamesmanship always managing his expectations and favoring some in the media (Parnell/Mejia most recently, Tejada/Flores most idiotically, CY/Lagares in ST last year). Only twice did Bobby V. win less than 88 games - and he had more than a few equally underwhelming rosters in his time here.
to Collins, hopefully he's just trying to motivate Flores and Tejada. It's not a bad thing if both of them work hard in the offseason and come to camp ready to give 100% to win the job.
Well, maybe. We already know Tejada will show up to camp fat and lazy if he's not properly coddled.
a swipe at me it does't take a fucking rocket scientist to know that if you are making offers to players and they choose not to sign with you and you don't spend that money you likely aren't operating at your absolute MAX payroll.
On top of the clear evidence of that in and of itself Sandy has also said a million times publicly money is there if they absolutely need a player at the deadline, ect.
Does that mean we've had 100 million dollars we weren't spending. Christ sakes fuck no. But it does likely mean we've been operating with a little buffer(think 10-15 million) for the last couple years and that's all Ive ever said.
to Collins, hopefully he's just trying to motivate Flores and Tejada. It's not a bad thing if both of them work hard in the offseason and come to camp ready to give 100% to win the job.
Is this for real? After the shit he pulled last year you honestly believe this?
Collins was a total dipshit about Tejada/Flores last year..
But that quote doesn't bother me that much. You don't have to hand anyone anything in December.
That said.. didn't he say Parnell "is the closer" when he's healthy? So I guess that doesn't always work when we're talking about Collins.
Anyway, the quote didn't get me that crazy. I remember before ST last year there were some rumblings about Lagares not being the every day CF and everyone got nuts about the mere suggestion but he wound up being there anyway.
because in his own right, Tejada would be nice bench piece. He can play the middle infield at both spots, he can work a count late in a game, and he can even hit lefties pretty well. He can come in late as a defensive substitution for both Murphy and Flores late in games sometimes all for 1.5 million bucks.
Unfortunately I want him off the team because of Collins. Gone. I want him never near a Mets uniform again.
Would love to know the whole context of that quote, that is an unreal statement.
The only way this offseason could be worse than flores is our opening Day SS. Is if Tejada is.
RE: Collins was a total dipshit about Tejada/Flores last year..
But that quote doesn't bother me that much. You don't have to hand anyone anything in December.
That said.. didn't he say Parnell "is the closer" when he's healthy? So I guess that doesn't always work when we're talking about Collins.
Anyway, the quote didn't get me that crazy. I remember before ST last year there were some rumblings about Lagares not being the every day CF and everyone got nuts about the mere suggestion but he wound up being there anyway.
Oh man. I might be having flashbacks to last year and over reacting but Collins did want to go with vets in the outfield opening day. He was over ruled by Sandy and was forced to start with Lagares (and Mejia in the rotation after wanting Dice K) Sandy went on air the day before the season started and said Lagares would be the starter after Collin was saying the contrary. He then was over ruled again in June when Flores was called up and Lagares had like weeks where he went cold and he benched Lagares 3 days in a row(Free Lagares). He was also over ruled a third time at the end of July when Sandy made him play Flores/MDD every day again.
Would love to know the whole context of that quote, that is an unreal statement.
The only way this offseason could be worse than flores is our opening Day SS. Is if Tejada is.
I immediately rescind my 88 wins and bring it down to 84-85 if Flores isn't the SS. lol
all that much up until this past season but after listening to him squirm on postgame after postgame and watch him over ruled and Sandy flat out made him look like a jackass. it was absolutely hilarious and showed what a buffoon he really was at least in regards to the younger players.
Oh lets not forget Farnsworth and Valverde also who Collins would have rode until October unless Sandy released them!
If Tejada is starting at SS on Opening Day, I will go fucking bananas then and go crazy.
I'm not going to get wound up about it 2 months before pitchers and catchers even report.
Yeah Im with you there. And Tejada will not be the starter. Im confident in that. Sandy is calling the shots and won't let him but it still drives me nuts that this guy is so stupid.
Collins' mistake with Lagares got saved by maternity leave & CY's calf
And even still, if Lagares didn't start out red hot who knows what might have happened.
This is true because I get the feeling Sandy won't interfere if Collins choices are performing(Tejada started out ok) but as soon as Tejada started tanking he got involved. I also think the leash is a lot shorter going into this year. Sandy isn't going to mess around this year.
In regards to Lagares though Sandy did name Lagares and Mejia(in the rotation) starters and Collins was rumbling the opposite the day before. This happened a million times during the season too. lol. Tejada will play tomorrow(and then Flores was in there) while Terry squirmed. It literally was every other day.
RE: If you have to repeatedly protect your manager from making
Boneheaded player decisions by taking a decision out of hands, you don't really have a manager worth keeping.
Yeah this is my thinking as well. Collins though is a win now manager that is playing contract to contract. It almost makes sense for him to want to accumulate as much wins as possible no matter what and he probably figures the vets give him his best chance. He doesn't have time to develop players. Sandy on the other hand isn't going anywhere and has put a rebuild in effect for 4 years. Sandy knows playing Flores over Tejada is good for the future but Collins doesn't give a shit about that.
The only reason Collins is still here is because I think the front office likes what a puppet he is. They clearly overrule him and he does what they say. He doesn't make a stink in the media and keeps his mouth shut. That has value. A guy like Wally might tell them to all to fuck off if they treated him that way. That's the only thing I can think of.
RE: RE: If you have to repeatedly protect your manager from making
Boneheaded player decisions by taking a decision out of hands, you don't really have a manager worth keeping.
Yeah this is my thinking as well. Collins though is a win now manager that is playing contract to contract. It almost makes sense for him to want to accumulate as much wins as possible no matter what and he probably figures the vets give him his best chance. He doesn't have time to develop players. Sandy on the other hand isn't going anywhere and has put a rebuild in effect for 4 years. Sandy knows playing Flores over Tejada is good for the future but Collins doesn't give a shit about that.
The only reason Collins is still here is because I think the front office likes what a puppet he is. They clearly overrule him and he does what they say. He doesn't make a stink in the media and keeps his mouth shut. That has value. A guy like Wally might tell them to all to fuck off if they treated him that way. That's the only thing I can think of.
Collins has never developed players. He said (and acted) as much last season. Collins has always been in "win now" mode when he should have been developing players for the future seasons (now). I cant imagine they (FO and Collins) havent had this conversation over the past few seasons. The only thing they have guaranteed over the past couple of seasons is that Terry isnt going anywhere. Im sure they didnt expect this team to be in win-now mode the past couple of years but Terry has certainly acted like it. And then when he is finally FORCED to develop players, he cuts them down.
He's an awful manager and its shocking to hear the reports that players love playing for him. Its hard to believe and that certainly wasnt the case in Anaheim.
Its pretty clear he is stubborn too. The fact that he praised Tejada in evey post game and would make fun of Flores and make sarcastic remarks told me he actually was making digs at Sandy and he probably didn't like being told what to do behind the scenes. Either way he did what was told but I don't like feeling that my manager is the dumbest one in the room.
The front office let it leak that they were split about even retaining him for this season. They clearly don't love the guy. I agree with others they probably think he should get one chance with a real roster and he was here through the rebuild like everyone else but my god he better be fired if this team isn't competing for the playoffs this season.
RE: RE: If you have to repeatedly protect your manager from making
The only reason Collins is still here is because I think the front office likes what a puppet he is. They clearly overrule him and he does what they say.
I dunno, to me a puppet is someone who you don't have to overrule, someone who does what you want them to do in the first place. IE, Art Howe in Oakland...
The only reason Collins is still here is because I think the front office likes what a puppet he is. They clearly overrule him and he does what they say.
I dunno, to me a puppet is someone who you don't have to overrule, someone who does what you want them to do in the first place. IE, Art Howe in Oakland...
Well he does what they tell him when it comes down to it. Its not like he's opposing them. He just has the complete opposite mindset with what they and the organization needs to do. He could tell them no and make a stink in the media ect, but he doesn't. He just rumbles around and stews on postgames. lol
me so much...but moreso the constant string of moronic comments and actions by this buffoon. Its not something that will get better.
Ah, screw it...this one comment bugged me a lot. But I stand by the rest of what I said. This was the biggest reason why mets fans hated him last season - and here we go again. Its like he's purposely trolling mets fans, lol.
I was front and center of the "FREE WILMER" bandwagon when this jackass was looking for every reason in the book not to let him play.
It's annoying that he's even hinting at there being a chance of Tejada getting that job back but I'm just telling myself it's a way to keep both guys motivated. If I think anything else, I'll just get angry and it's too early to get angry about the Mets,
So true. It really feels like groundhog day with this guys sometimes in regards to the younger players. It really isn't just Flores either. It was MDD, Mejia, and a host of others which tells me he will likely continue to pull this shit over and over again in the future. I just keep telling myself thank god we at least have a GM that has the sense TO overrule him. Imagine we had two morons running the team and Collins got his way. We'd be fucked.
Matt Ehalt
@MattEhalt
2 quick Mets notes: Can confirm Mets have interest in Jung-Ho Kang. Also, heard Mets interest in Breslow overblown. By no means leading FA.
the Daily News or whatever and they were live from the Winter Meetings and said the Mets did have a casual talk about him but didn't like what they saw really and actually weren't interested.
and it sounds like Colorado has really had some in depth conversations about the Mets. Also had a nugget in there that the two teams were very actively discussing CarGo at the deadline (implies that prior to him getting hurt the Rockies made the Mets an offer that they obviously passed on but thought might have gotten accepted). Rockies beat reporter Thomas Harding - ( New Window )
Apparently Flores hasn't had a day off since the season ended. He went straight to instructs, then 4 weeks of physical training, then straight to winter ball where he is hitting .367 but hey... who would want to reward a guy like that with a shot? Im sure Tejada is getting nice and plump right about now.
rather watch A-Rod sight unseen than Tejada again this year. I do not buy the Tejada stuff however. I think right now their hope is the Mariners blink (doubtful), White Sox lower their price (very doubtful) or they sign someone like Drew to go with Flores.
When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
Apparently Flores hasn't had a day off since the season ended. He went straight to instructs, then 4 weeks of physical training, then straight to winter ball where he is hitting .367 but hey... who would want to reward a guy like that with a shot? Im sure Tejada is getting nice and plump right about now.
is owed "roughly" 5 and essentially has a second year option, Niese 2 for 16, Colon 1 for 11. I'm not going to complain about dealing Gee (I hope they get SOMETHING for him and not just some AAAA player because for about a year or so he was solid). I could see him bouncing back a bit. He won't come back and haunt them too badly either way. Sucks both he and Niese have such concerns but the market is absolutely flooded with guys like this. Offense is much harder to find. I think we see a major change to the game coming in the next 5 years. An actual tangible rule change.
all that(I'd gladly move Gee) some team is going to get a good player on a steal. We've been so enamored by the bright lights of the younger kids we forget that Gee was a pretty good pitcher for us not that long ago. His 2014 season sucked but he missed almost half the year and was kind of a mess after coming back. I bet he's much better next year but oh well. We need to clear spots. Time to go.
When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
arc, I can understand why you would feel that way. I feel the same. It's understandable because that is how they've operated for the past five years.
I know that ZG feels that there is a $10-$15 million buffer built into the budget (and he could be right for all we know) but they've shown no inclination to utilize that buffer...so I'll believe it when I see it. I'm on the side that tends to believe there is no buffer. But none of us fuckers truly know.
I just hope that our big power move wasn't Cuddyer.
When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
That's cool but I don't think that's the case here. We simply have too many pitchers for not enough spots. Eventually we were going to have to start opening them. Im glad they are choosing to clear the lowest rated options opposed to the better options who are paid more. If they were really hamstrung, i would think they would be doing everything to get rid of Colon but that doesn't appear to be the case here. Just my opinion.
It's especially bad when you're a big market team. It would be like the Knicks selling 2nd round picks for cash to Memphis.
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
arc, I can understand why you would feel that way. I feel the same. It's understandable because that is how they've operated for the past five years.
I know that ZG feels that there is a $10-$15 million buffer built into the budget (and he could be right for all we know) but they've shown no inclination to utilize that buffer...so I'll believe it when I see it. I'm on the side that tends to believe there is no buffer. But none of us fuckers truly know.
I just hope that our big power move wasn't Cuddyer.
I just don't get how people could assume whatever the payroll is for the year is EXACTLY the amount we were allowed to spend. Not trying to start anything but that makes almost no sense. We hit it right on the mark every time? Of course there's some room. Whether its 100 million or 10 thousand the team isn't flat broke at the start of every season. I highly doubt we were all getting punked when we were willing to offer 10 million to Drew and Balfour 12 million last year. Whatever. I give up. Its all good.
Supposedly Mets may be open to trading Thor for a big hitting prospect (Purifor?) and as reported about the 2 teams are in heavy negotiations to swap some combo of pitchers for infielders... Mets, Rangers talking pitching, infielders - ( New Window )
could be a stud but he also missed the ENTIRE year with a shoulder issue that isn't healed up yet, is that really where you use "Mets luck"? Seems like a potential disaster for Thor.
It's especially bad when you're a big market team. It would be like the Knicks selling 2nd round picks for cash to Memphis.
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
That does not apply here. WE HAVE TO GET RID OF ONE. Or do you propose a 6 man rotation? Harvey, Wheeler, and legroom are locks, One of Gee, Neise, or Colon has to go.
could be a stud but he also missed the ENTIRE year with a shoulder issue that isn't healed up yet, is that really where you use "Mets luck"? Seems like a potential disaster for Thor.
Oh man will i be bummed if we trade Thor for Profar.
I think the reality is that Greene likely had more value than Gee or Niese by virtue of years of control. I'd probably rank them Greene, Montero, Niese, Gee... that said it's not as if they couldn't have added more. I truly doubt it was Thor or bust.
It's especially bad when you're a big market team. It would be like the Knicks selling 2nd round picks for cash to Memphis.
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
That does not apply here. WE HAVE TO GET RID OF ONE. Or do you propose a 6 man rotation? Harvey, Wheeler, and legroom are locks, One of Gee, Neise, or Colon has to go.
If I didn't get a good offer I'd bring all 6 to camp. I like what Colon brings in the clubhouse, but he's got no upside compared the other 5 (otherwise he'd be the obvious dump). I'm all for trading 1 of them, but i'm not dumping a 28 year old who proved he can pitch 200 innings to a 3.6 ERA for a AAAA player just cuz. Fair or unfair I'd let he and Colon battle it out for the 5th starter/long man and Matt Harvey caddy role. But I don't think that's going to be an issue, I think they will get something decent for him.
've never even heard of this guy and I'm not saying he'd be enough for Gee but Phil Klein in 2014 70 innings 33 hits 25 walks 93 k's. Wowzas
"Just before he was promoted to AAA, I asked Phil what the biggest difference was for him this year versus last, "Just not thinking so much." was his response. Just throw it to the catcher's mitt, big fella. A very smart dude who enjoys the quiet serenity of bow hunting in the offseason, Phil had to learn to turn off the noodle a bit and just trust his stuff, his catcher, and his defenders. Phil's biggest attribute is his size and now, his command. Nothing worse than a reliever who walks guys and Phil's numbers this year are back down to his career averages of about 3.5BB/9 (while he's averaging 12.2K/9). A FB that will sit 92-95, but that according to several opposing players I've spoken with over the years "looks 95-98" is his most reliable weapon. He gets massive extension and drive from his mechanics and the ball simply jumps on hitters. He'll use the FB to set up a very good slider, that usually comes in around 82-84mph. He'll mix in a few 88mph cutters from time to time as well, but he's essentially a FB/SL guy who uses a bit of deception and a whole lot of his massive frame to give hitters a unique look. "
RE: RE: The idea of Profar is pretty intriguing...
of agree with that if you didn't already have another player in Montero able to do the same thing you just described who probably will. Oh yeah and Thor and Syndergaard weeks behind him.
he's certainly nothing more than a stop gap, whereas at this time 1 year ago we were talking about Gee being the opening day starter and hopefully continuing to develop into a meaningful part of the team. Even though that looks unlikely now, there's still a better chance of that happening than Colon being resigned next year.
@AnthonyDiComo 38s39 seconds ago
#Mets not really eyeing big league talent for Dillon Gee, despite their needs in bullpen, bench. Salary, roster relief is the main thing.
RE: RE: RE: The idea of Profar is pretty intriguing...
of agree with that if you didn't already have another player in Montero able to do the same thing you just described who probably will. Oh yeah and Thor and Syndergaard weeks behind him.
I'm not saying they'd fill an open hole, just that I wouldn't give up something for nothing over 5M bucks. I'd rather bring Gee to camp than spend 2-4M on a 1 year deal for an underwhelming 30 something relief pitcher.
in a year but he actually offers value to this 2015 club as a 200 innings eater and veteran with Harvey and some of the kids on innings limits. He offers nothing to us for 2016. If Syndergaard isn't traded you HAVE to make a spot for him. There isn't a choice in the matter. Matt is almost in the same category. And well all know Harvey, Wheeler, and deGrom are pitching as long as they are healthy. At some point you have to start clearing spots if you want to take the next step.
of agree with that if you didn't already have another player in Montero able to do the same thing you just described who probably will. Oh yeah and Thor and Syndergaard weeks behind him.
I'm not saying they'd fill an open hole, just that I wouldn't give up something for nothing over 5M bucks. I'd rather bring Gee to camp than spend 2-4M on a 1 year deal for an underwhelming 30 something relief pitcher.
Im sure SOMETHING will be coming back but I doubt the return is anything significant. I'd be be fine with an interesting prospect in single A or two.
When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
arc, I can understand why you would feel that way. I feel the same. It's understandable because that is how they've operated for the past five years.
I know that ZG feels that there is a $10-$15 million buffer built into the budget (and he could be right for all we know) but they've shown no inclination to utilize that buffer...so I'll believe it when I see it. I'm on the side that tends to believe there is no buffer. But none of us fuckers truly know.
I just hope that our big power move wasn't Cuddyer.
I just don't get how people could assume whatever the payroll is for the year is EXACTLY the amount we were allowed to spend. Not trying to start anything but that makes almost no sense. We hit it right on the mark every time? Of course there's some room. Whether its 100 million or 10 thousand the team isn't flat broke at the start of every season. I highly doubt we were all getting punked when we were willing to offer 10 million to Drew and Balfour 12 million last year. Whatever. I give up. Its all good.
On the contrary, I think it makes perfect sense. The only constant this team has had over the past five years (aside from inexplicably giving Collins the key to the city) is to slash payroll and keep it low. Of course it's not going to be the same, on the button, every season. That's why they slash so much so they can only spend a little over what the originally were at, if at all.
2015 - $97 Mill (projected as of now)
2014 - $85 Mill
2013 - $93 Mill
2012 - $94 Mill
Aside from last season (which was much lower) that's pretty damn close over 4 years. I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that after the Granderson signing, they would shy away from the conversations with FA's or at the very least not be very aggressive. These guys know exactly what they need to pay to get these guys. Losing out on Balfour ($6 mill) because the didn't want to pay as much as the other team doesn't exactly give me the warm and fuzzies.
Again, I'm not trying to argue but I just have a different view than you. Recent history dictates that they don't/won't spend the money necessary to field a winning ballclub. Even when they don't have to trade away players/prospects to get that player. I'll believe it when I see it. And I'm okay with that.
higher offer on the table for Balfour. He took "less" money to go to the Rays but whatever. The last couple years Sandy has said money would be there if they were in contention and needed to make a move or the deadline and he likes to work with some flexibility. The Wilpons said the same thing last year. We know Sandy got in it with Boras over Drew and Sandy went on air and said the difference in a deal was about 5 million because the Mets viewed him as a 10 million dollar player and Boras viewed him as a 15 million dollar player. Whatever though... Im only going offer of what these guys are actually saying and doing. Its not just a wild hunch.
is Jurickson Profar a bigger question mark than Flores.
consensus #1 prospect in all of baseball.
Still just 21 years old.
He is considered an above average defensive shortstop (not a "I won't panic if he's our starter" shortstop)
He was a couple years ago, but his stock has fallen dramatically and he's been injured to boot. It has less to do with Flores and more to do with giving up Thor but carry on.
higher offer on the table for Balfour. He took "less" money to go to the Rays but whatever. The last couple years Sandy has said money would be there if they were in contention and needed to make a move or the deadline and he likes to work with some flexibility. The Wilpons said the same thing last year. We know Sandy got in it with Boras over Drew and Sandy went on air and said the difference in a deal was about 5 million because the Mets viewed him as a 10 million dollar player and Boras viewed him as a 15 million dollar player. Whatever though... Im only going offer of what these guys are actually saying and doing. Its not just a wild hunch.
Most of what I'm reading is that the made an identical offer, not necessarily a higher offer. Plus, you are bidding against a team in Florida...with no state tax. But I'm sure they were aware of that, right?
Quote:
Fox Sports midget Ken Rosenthal was the first to tweet that sources told him that the Mets actually offered Balfour more than the two-year, $12 million deal he got from Tampa Bay. Adam Rubin of ESPN New York then tweeted that an ultra-reliable Mets source told him that the Mets made an identical offer.
But the Mets say it is not true. Mike Puma of the New York Post tweeted that a Mets official denies the team offered Grant Balfour more than the $12 million deal he received from Rays. Note it says more than in the Mets world of deceitful doublespeak, it could mean they offered exactly $12 million or less, but they do not want to admit that they, a team in New York, lost a player to crummy Tampa.
That article also touches on another topic, "the Mets world of deceitful doublespeak." It's one thing to say that you have (or like to have) payroll flexibility...it's another thing to show it. link - ( New Window )
Profar's shoulder is too much of a question mark..
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 3m3 minutes ago
I'm told #Mets do like Jurickson Profar, but he would need to reestablish health first. And it's not like Dillon Gee gets that done anyway.
him more but if it was more or identical does it really matter? My point is that they theoretically could have given that money out isn't it? Im not arguing about this. Its beyond stupid. You either believe they could have offered it or you don't. I don't even care.
RE: Profar's shoulder is too much of a question mark..
Profar hasn't begun throwing yet so any "proof he's healthy" won't be anytime soon. MRI called him "95%", major red flag and the Rangers have zero incentive to trade him right now unless they know something is wrong.
Even if he rehabs and gets "healthy" I'd be worried about it being an issue again in the future.
And I don't know if there's any way we could make a move for him this offseason with him already having re-established his health and proving it's no longer an issue.
That's like saying the Mets have no incentive to trade Thor.
Of course they don't.
If I'm trading Thor I'm looking at guys like Profar, Bogaerts, or that age/potential.
and obviously for those who can read I said Profar would need to be healthy, but those are the players I'd easily deal Thor for.
Let's face it he has less major league experience than them and just as much if not more bust potential and in general a pitcher is less valuable than a good position player.
That's like saying the Mets have no incentive to trade Thor.
Of course they don't.
If I'm trading Thor I'm looking at guys like Profar, Bogaerts, or that age/potential.
and obviously for those who can read I said Profar would need to be healthy, but those are the players I'd easily deal Thor for.
Let's face it he has less major league experience than them and just as much if not more bust potential and in general a pitcher is less valuable than a good position player.
Selling low aka a guy coming off an entire missed year means you aren't getting a max return. If Syndergaard blows out his knee tomorrow and will be out all of 2015 what are the odds the Mets get a max return on him?
health. He had a recurring non-surgical shoulder issue.
a better analogy would be the Mets trading Harvey now.
not perfect analogy since Harvey has a major league track record (brief, but he has it).
Just saying Profar being healthy is the first step.
Anyway, I'd trade Thor for Bogaerts similarly. I don't love Xander at SS, but the Sox have other options there and a need for pitching. I'd trade him for Mookie Betts too.
him more but if it was more or identical does it really matter? My point is that they theoretically could have given that money out isn't it? Im not arguing about this. Its beyond stupid. You either believe they could have offered it or you don't. I don't even care.
Who's arguing? No reason to get pissy about it. It's been widely reported that the offer was the same (if that) than the Rays offer...which isn't even really true given the lack of state tax in FL.
Quote:
Adam Rubin writes on Twitter, Im told point blank from ultra-reliable Mets source: Mets had same offer to Balfour as Rays, but he preferred living in Florida.
I can (and do) believe that the Mets offered Balfour a contract but I can also believe that they were less aggressive because of other signings (Granderson, Young). Either way, the possibility of adding $6 mill to a $85 mill payroll doesn't scream "payroll flexibility" to me, but whatevs. Of course, I could be wrong...and so could you. Neither of us are Sandy Alderson (or are you?). I certainly don't think it's stupid since this is they way they have operated for the past 5 years.
But again, we're just talking here. We can believe what we want to. I just choose to go by actual history rather than lip service.
That's like saying the Mets have no incentive to trade Thor.
Of course they don't.
If I'm trading Thor I'm looking at guys like Profar, Bogaerts, or that age/potential.
and obviously for those who can read I said Profar would need to be healthy, but those are the players I'd easily deal Thor for.
Let's face it he has less major league experience than them and just as much if not more bust potential and in general a pitcher is less valuable than a good position player.
Selling low aka a guy coming off an entire missed year means you aren't getting a max return. If Syndergaard blows out his knee tomorrow and will be out all of 2015 what are the odds the Mets get a max return on him?
better chance of getting max return on blown out knee vs elbow or shoulder
didn't even bring it up. Was swiped at by somebody else. And its not just Belfour. At an almost simultaneous time we were clearly in on Drew too. Luckily Sandy held his ground. We aren't recovered yet and won't be until we start putting fans in the seats but some people act like WE HAVE to trade player A before we can even consider player B. I hear that here all the time. I just don't think that's the case. For instance I didn't think we HAD to trade Murphy before we could consider Cuddyer. Sandy is not rushing to clear Colon's and Murphy's salaries. We are ok. There's a little wiggle room. That's all Im saying I guess.
His value is depressed right now any way you want to slice it. He missed an entire season and the team openly admitted the MRI 2 weeks ago said "95%". Teams aren't going to offer what they normally would unless/until he were proven healthy
I know I'm beating a dead horse but I find this conversation interesting and maybe this will shed some light on where I'm coming from.
The Mets offered the same money as the Rays to Balfour. The Rays are a better team (last season not so much), no state tax, and Balfour's home state. Was there ever a chance in hell that he was going to the shitty Mets for the same contract? There's no way and I think the Mets knew that.
If you are looking for a $3,000 television and you can get it at PC Richard that's right down the street from you...but some shitty appliance store that's 4 hours away calls you and tells you that they can sell you the same TV for the same price...whatcha gonna do?
Yeah, maybe it's a crappy analogy, but same concept. Nobody want's to go to the shitty appliance store 4 hours away. Lol. I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore.
It's especially bad when you're a big market team. It would be like the Knicks selling 2nd round picks for cash to Memphis.
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
That does not apply here. WE HAVE TO GET RID OF ONE. Or do you propose a 6 man rotation? Harvey, Wheeler, and legroom are locks, One of Gee, Neise, or Colon has to go.
Legroom, lol.
We just got to watch a season where the Yankees were trying to scrape guys out of a dumpster to pitch innings. Why sell just to sell? Injuries are inevitable.
It's especially bad when you're a big market team. It would be like the Knicks selling 2nd round picks for cash to Memphis.
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
That does not apply here. WE HAVE TO GET RID OF ONE. Or do you propose a 6 man rotation? Harvey, Wheeler, and legroom are locks, One of Gee, Neise, or Colon has to go.
Legroom, lol.
We just got to watch a season where the Yankees were trying to scrape guys out of a dumpster to pitch innings. Why sell just to sell? Injuries are inevitable.
lol. My spell check does that deGrom all the time! WTF! my laptop and my phone. haha. I almost want to start calling him that it happens so often!!
I know I'm beating a dead horse but I find this conversation interesting and maybe this will shed some light on where I'm coming from.
The Mets offered the same money as the Rays to Balfour. The Rays are a better team (last season not so much), no state tax, and Balfour's home state. Was there ever a chance in hell that he was going to the shitty Mets for the same contract? There's no way and I think the Mets knew that.
If you are looking for a $3,000 television and you can get it at PC Richard that's right down the street from you...but some shitty appliance store that's 4 hours away calls you and tells you that they can sell you the same TV for the same price...whatcha gonna do?
Yeah, maybe it's a crappy analogy, but same concept. Nobody want's to go to the shitty appliance store 4 hours away. Lol. I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore.
to Sandy. He is specifically addressing the payroll. Says its around 100 million and should be around that when the season starts or in that range. Says there is some flexibility. Depending on what they do cood go a little higher, could go a little lower.
His value is depressed right now any way you want to slice it. He missed an entire season and the team openly admitted the MRI 2 weeks ago said "95%". Teams aren't going to offer what they normally would unless/until he were proven healthy
that's probably why he'd only cost Syndergaard.
I wouldn't acquire him if he weren't healthy, but if he is, that's a potential lineup changing bat. Think Hanley Ramirez at 21 in the Mets lineup playing SS and a better defender.
if he's not healthy or if there are questions about his health you don't acquire him. Obviously.
I'm blown away reading this. People are willing to give up Thor for Profar today, but earlier today wouldn't trade for Tulo because he is too much of an injury risk!?!?
be the roster on opening day Sandy says, " Yeah I think its pretty close. Even if we add a SS, a left-handed pitcher, and a right-handed bat thats still 22 out 25 guys we expect here." I think its pretty clear on who he's looking at and for. lol.
all in all, Sandy didnt say anything we didn't already know
be the roster on opening day Sandy says, " Yeah I think its pretty close. Even if we add a SS, a left-handed pitcher, and a right-handed bat thats still 22 out 25 guys we expect here." I think its pretty clear on who he's looking at and for. lol.
I'm blown away reading this. People are willing to give up Thor for Profar today, but earlier today wouldn't trade for Tulo because he is too much of an injury risk!?!?
Exactly. Tulo is the perfect fit for this team in every way except 1 - money. If he didn't have an injury ? he might not even be available for Harvey right now. Could he get hurt? Yes. Just as any prospect might not pan out or get hurt themselves. Tulo's upside is as high as any move they could possibly make and one would hope they could do some things to try to minimize the injury risks.
RE: lol, Sandy just said that the payroll could go a little
I'm blown away reading this. People are willing to give up Thor for Profar today, but earlier today wouldn't trade for Tulo because he is too much of an injury risk!?!?
Exactly. Tulo is the perfect fit for this team in every way except 1 - money. If he didn't have an injury ? he might not even be available for Harvey right now. Could he get hurt? Yes. Just as any prospect might not pan out or get hurt themselves. Tulo's upside is as high as any move they could possibly make and one would hope they could do some things to try to minimize the injury risks.
Money AND the ridiculous return Colorado thinks they can get for him too. They are asking for a king's ransom. deGrom, Wheeler, and more. They are fucking drunk.
Adam Rubin ✔ @AdamRubinESPN
I'm told #Mets do like Jurickson Profar, but he would need to reestablish health first. And it's not like Dillon Gee gets that done anyway
6 years / 114M (including a very reasonable 14M in the final year, his age 35 season). That's not counting the 7th year which is a team option w/ buyout.
FYI Hanley Ramirez contract has 22M vesting option for his age 35 season. He's not a gold glove SS and he has not been the pillar of health either.
I'm blown away reading this. People are willing to give up Thor for Profar today, but earlier today wouldn't trade for Tulo because he is too much of an injury risk!?!?
Exactly. Tulo is the perfect fit for this team in every way except 1 - money. If he didn't have an injury ? he might not even be available for Harvey right now. Could he get hurt? Yes. Just as any prospect might not pan out or get hurt themselves. Tulo's upside is as high as any move they could possibly make and one would hope they could do some things to try to minimize the injury risks.
Money AND the ridiculous return Colorado thinks they can get for him too. They are asking for a king's ransom. deGrom, Wheeler, and more. They are fucking drunk.
Where did you see anything on what they are asking for?
Samarja also supposedly close to going to White Sox
things are definitely picking up. Should be a crazy couple days.
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 6m6 minutes ago
jeff samarzija is on the verge of being traded. the white sox are the likely landing spot. http://cbsprt.co/1Gc0GEP
6 years / 114M (including a very reasonable 14M in the final year, his age 35 season). That's not counting the 7th year which is a team option w/ buyout.
FYI Hanley Ramirez contract has 22M vesting option for his age 35 season. He's not a gold glove SS and he has not been the pillar of health either.
My point was Profar would be a 21 year old Hanley Ramirez.
He's still worth signing. If there's just absolutely nowhere to put him, you have a huge trade chip anyway. An asset is an asset. I wish they'd pursue it but I know they're not interested.
RE: Now that I'm hearing Collins talk about Tejada...
What the hell is this guys obsession with him? I just don't get it.
Lol, you got to it before I did. The reporter tells Terry that Sandy said that Flores is the guy at SS and Terry said flat out NO. Then he went on slobbering all over Tejada's cock. He said that he's really impressed with Tejada, plays great defense, was great down the stretch, hit 5 HRs (WOW) and promised to be in the training facility in January.
Meanwhile, Flores was the better player, hit 6 HRs (in half as many plate appearances) and hasn't stopped training since the season end.
But Flores is Collins guy. UGH. Screw Collins. That was sickening.
6 years / 114M (including a very reasonable 14M in the final year, his age 35 season). That's not counting the 7th year which is a team option w/ buyout.
FYI Hanley Ramirez contract has 22M vesting option for his age 35 season. He's not a gold glove SS and he has not been the pillar of health either.
My point was Profar would be a 21 year old Hanley Ramirez.
I get it, but even beyond the injury there's risk in that being a reality. Profar has huge potential but is far from a known commodity even when healthy.
People think a young team controlled lefty in Niese is too much of an injury risk and we can't get anything in return for him. Yet how many innings has he pitched each of the past three years?
Profar just missed an entire season due to an arm, that STILL isn't recovered. And has proven nothing in the majors.
Yup, Tulo is too risky... Even WITH all the games Tulo has missed, still the second highest WAR for a SS in the entire game the past three seasons. So let's assume he stays injury prone, I'll take the second best SS in all of baseball.
I'm blown away reading this. People are willing to give up Thor for Profar today, but earlier today wouldn't trade for Tulo because he is too much of an injury risk!?!?
Exactly. Tulo is the perfect fit for this team in every way except 1 - money. If he didn't have an injury ? he might not even be available for Harvey right now. Could he get hurt? Yes. Just as any prospect might not pan out or get hurt themselves. Tulo's upside is as high as any move they could possibly make and one would hope they could do some things to try to minimize the injury risks.
Money AND the ridiculous return Colorado thinks they can get for him too. They are asking for a king's ransom. deGrom, Wheeler, and more. They are fucking drunk.
Where did you see anything on what they are asking for?
Martino? Ive heard they would want two of Thor, Syndergaard, and Wheeler AND expect us to pay the entire contract. All this for a guy in his 30's that can't stay healthy. I like Tulo but they can get the hell out of here.
Apparently the injury has Mets not considering him anyway
What the hell is this guys obsession with him? I just don't get it.
Lol, you got to it before I did. The reporter tells Terry that Sandy said that Flores is the guy at SS and Terry said flat out NO. Then he went on slobbering all over Tejada's cock. He said that he's really impressed with Tejada, plays great defense, was great down the stretch, hit 5 HRs (WOW) and promised to be in the training facility in January.
Meanwhile, Flores was the better player, hit 6 HRs (in half as many plate appearances) and hasn't stopped training since the season end.
But Flores is Collins guy. UGH. Screw Collins. That was sickening.
guy. Sounds like they are looking to deal him to the Mets and the 2 teams have had significant discussions over the past 6 months (previously about CarGo prior to his most recent injury). From what I've seen the Mets reporters have shot down the likelihood of deal due to taking on the contract much more than the prospects side of things.
Marc Carig @MarcCarig 10s11 seconds ago
Told Mets not high on Andrus and that they view Sardinas as more of a utility type, not long term solution at short.
seem to indicate the Mets don't like any of those players. And that perhaps these talks aren't as 'hot' as they were said to be.
Yeah. From Twitter it seemed like it got hot there for a minute and the teams were locked in but it might have fizzled out. Im glad. I don't want to trade Syndergaard for any player on Texas. They can take Gee if they like.
I'd actually be 100% fine with Montero as my 5th starter heading in. I know many people wouldn't be on board with that but I think he's being undervalued a bit in the market and on the Mets. Or at least overshadowed. I thought his last couple starts he looked REAL good. In the least with Gee gone, Montero becomes your 6th guy in case somebody gets injured.
I personally think Gee has more value to the Mets than what he'll fetch in a trade. You can use him in long-relief, use him as a spot starter.. whatever. He would probably be good in that role.
I just don't see us getting much of anything for him and that's why I don't like that the objective is just to clear his salary.
If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
Calvin Watkins says the Rangers are indeed interested in Gee
so it stands to reason these rumors were designed to let teams know the Mets are not only aggressively shopping him but close to dealing him if they're interested.
The most intriguing thing that got floated out there tonight is the notion that they are listening on Thor. They've clearly shot down that they aren't interested in Profar, but I've yet to see any Mets beat writer find out that "Thor is untouchable".
do Gee for Sardinas but I'd be pretty shocked if they get anything close to that. That said, he's really not very intriguing. He has youth on his side (22 opening day) but career .691 OPS in the minors (despite mostly great hitters environments)
343 minor league games... 5 homers 59 doubles
For comparisons sake
Tejada in the minors .693 OPS 16 homers in 522 games 87 doubles
Tovar .661 OPS
For Gee or to dump Niese or Colon? Sure but I suspect he's a backup MI
RE: RE: Why can't they just use Gee as a swingman?
If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
it all comes down to the return. I just can't see us getting anything of value for him and I'd rather just stockpile the arms if the alternative is just a salary dump or some shitty D level prospect.
RE: RE: Why can't they just use Gee as a swingman?
If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Not trying to rile up ZGiants but the writers are all implying the money is an issue.
Yeah. Martino implied the Mets would likely want to shed his salary so they could add other pieces like an arm or a bench piece but I think it was mostly his opinion. Who knows. In the same piece he said MANY teams were interested in Gee today so who knows?
RE: RE: Why can't they just use Gee as a swingman?
If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
Yes. He's likely better than those guys. And certainly we don't have a million options in AAA capable of throwing 200 innings next year should the need arise due to injuries. But the point isn't whether he's better than them, the point is whether he's better than what he returns (which seems like it will be minimal). And of course you continue to not acknowledge that there's zero risk in keeping him. Literally zero.
RE: RE: RE: Why can't they just use Gee as a swingman?
If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
it all comes down to the return. I just can't see us getting anything of value for him and I'd rather just stockpile the arms if the alternative is just a salary dump or some shitty D level prospect.
Agreed. Well lets see. Didn't seem with the amount of teams interested we were only going to get back a "D level" prospect.
If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
Yes. He's likely better than those guys. And certainly we don't have a million options in AAA capable of throwing 200 innings next year should the need arise due to injuries. But the point isn't whether he's better than them, the point is whether he's better than what he returns (which seems like it will be minimal). And of course you continue to not acknowledge that there's zero risk in keeping him. Literally zero.
Risk? He's a damn good backend pitcher. He deserves to be a starter. We don't have a spot and teams aren't interested. We don't really have a spot for him in the bullpen either. Whatever. Im not saying a word about this until he gets traded and we see what comes back.
Susan Slusser @susanslusser 16m16 minutes ago
Even if a Samardzija deal is close to being finalized, it doesn't sound as if the #Athletics are planning to announce anything tonight.
I'd be all for getting a good young lefty arm back for Gee
just looking at the Rangers more intriguing "fringe" guys. Klein throws hard and misses bats, Claudio is a loogy and the Mets are openly looking for one. Hard to ignore such dominant numbers vs. lefties. I'd love to see them trade up for Gilmartin and this guy similar deal, could have real value.
on all discussions. Read between the lines on that one and you'd almost think he wants to come here...
"The New York Daily News reported that the Mets -- judged as the team best equipped to make an acceptable offer for Tulowitzki -- had turned down the Rockies' trade interest. Various reports indicated the Mets have serious concerns about what Tulowitzki's contract, which guarantees him $114 million through 2020, would do to their payroll. However, Bridich said the Rockies and Mets had not met formally." Coupons striking again... - ( New Window )
I think I read on this thread that the Mets and White Sox were in the
place. Yet, we see the White Sox being aggressive in signing quality players to build a winning team while the Mets continue to shop in the bargain dumpster while giving the illusion that they are looking at quality players (they like Tulo but concerned with the $$).
I've never seen a team so open about their concerns about payroll. It was really exciting to hear Sandy say yesterday that payroll could get lower by the time the season starts. I wonder what its like to have a big market team.
RE: I think I read on this thread that the Mets and White Sox were in the
place. Yet, we see the White Sox being aggressive in signing quality players to build a winning team while the Mets continue to shop in the bargain dumpster while giving the illusion that they are looking at quality players (they like Tulo but concerned with the $$).
I've never seen a team so open about their concerns about payroll. It was really exciting to hear Sandy say yesterday that payroll could get lower by the time the season starts. I wonder what its like to have a big market team.
I made that comparison and I still feel it's apt. Before the off-season began I felt the White Sox and Mets were in similar spots, LaRoche and Cuddyer additions even added to that.
But not similar with available budget to improve the team. Mets will need to be crafty to improve, which means trading young assets to get other teams young assets.
There is no indication that they will spend, or trade for a big contract. Psi is right.
Nobody yet! But Harvey and company will be free agents in a few years. Have to save up to afford at least one of them.
They're like the guy who live with his parents til he's 40, saving up for that dream house he never buys...but he DID get a good deal on a 1989 Chevy cavalier!!!
But not similar with available budget to improve the team. Mets will need to be crafty to improve, which means trading young assets to get other teams young assets.
There is no indication that they will spend, or trade for a big contract. Psi is right.
I wont concede that the Mets NEED to be crafty. The revenue is there (when factoring SNY, which has below-market rights). The rest of the finances are funny-money. Are the Mets in a lot of debt? They'd need to open the books, and they wont do that since I suspect what they did was borrow against the Mets to fund the family's real estate business.
more revenue than ever yet the Mets keep operating at a bottom third payroll. Where is all that extra Mets revenue going?
To pay off debt, I'd guess.
Then again, they may not be making a ton of money since nobody wants to see a bad baseball team lose games, and they won't spend any money to bring in players fans will pay to see.
Who is available that we should spend on that doesn't have a wart? The team worked hard to be fiscally sane for once, why ruin it? When the right player becomes available, the Mets will be one of the few teams able to take the risk (ie Tulo, Andrus).
I know all offseason most mets fans assumed these guys would get salary dumped with nothing in return. Look at what Hammel just signed with the Cubs for. Much worse pitcher than any of the Mets. And now a worse contract than Gee Much worse deal than Colon. And no comparison to Nieses contract. The Hammel signing should show the value in these guys...
I asked the same question however should they be targeting with real interest an International Free Agent and bail out because the price is too high then I would join the chorus
Jose Reyes for one. Knocks out two major holes - leadoff and SS.
I'd have taken a gamble on Hanley Ramirez. He'd fill SS and middle of the order bat.
I agree it's counter-productive to spend for the sake of spending, but the lack of a plan at SS would concern me.
I've said it before this is year 5 of my self-imposed 5 year plan for Sandy. I feel as a fan I'm being generous allowing the GM 5 years to build a team. No SS is inexcusable (if there isn't one), so I'll wait to criticize, until after the season, but there were moves to be made if the cash was there, to pretend there wasn't is blind homerism.
Who is available that we should spend on that doesn't have a wart? The team worked hard to be fiscally sane for once, why ruin it? When the right player becomes available, the Mets will be one of the few teams able to take the risk (ie Tulo, Andrus).
I agree 100% there. That isnt a franchise breaking deal, but could be a huge homerun. Have to trust your scouts on those IFA guys, but some reason the Mets historically have shown zero interest. Hope that changes in the near future.
Who is available that we should spend on that doesn't have a wart? The team worked hard to be fiscally sane for once, why ruin it? When the right player becomes available, the Mets will be one of the few teams able to take the risk (ie Tulo, Andrus).
Except sources say both of those players are being shopped, both teams like what the Mets have, and the Mets aren't interested in either play due to their contracts.
Haven't heard his name mentioned much yet. Probably change soon. Seems everyone is looking for a 2B yet no halfway decent ones are available! Just within our own division we have enough matches...
Considering no other team is knocking down the Rangers or rockies door for either contract, you can't want the mets to bid against themselves do you?
Every report you hear this time of year is either BS or will be contradicted within 24 hours. BasebLls version of the NFL Draft - very entertaining time of the year ;)
be very surprised if the Mets/Rangers come together on a MI deal unless it's something like crappy Sardinas. Rubin acknowledged the mets don't have interest in Profar unless he's proven healthy (he's not throwing yet so that won't be right now), Odor is 2b only can't see them dealing Thor for a guy who "maybe" can play SS and Sardinas is a middling talent.
Haven't heard his name mentioned much yet. Probably change soon. Seems everyone is looking for a 2B yet no halfway decent ones are available! Just within our own division we have enough matches...
I've noticed the opposite. Seems like there isn't much interest in 2b. The Blue Jays were one of the few exceptions and they added Travis. Yankees make some sense but they don't seem very interested. I don't see many spots for Murphy at all.
Considering no other team is knocking down the Rangers or rockies door for either contract, you can't want the mets to bid against themselves do you?
Every report you hear this time of year is either BS or will be contradicted within 24 hours. BasebLls version of the NFL Draft - very entertaining time of the year ;)
I hope so, and if they make a big acquisition I'll be first in line to admit that I was wrong and applaud the move. On the flip side they seem to be preparing everyone for a stagnant payroll and more Flores/Tejada so it's probably best for all of us to not expect much more than that.
-Astros, Red Sox, Tigers, Mariners, Twins, Indians, Phillies, Diamondbacks (Hill makes big money through 2016), Dodgers, Pirates (and a few others already "out") before we even get a Blue Jay, Padre, Giants situation where they have young guys they likely roll with. I could see the Murphy market (at least at 2b) being very limited at the moment. Maybe a team like the Rockies would be interested but doesn't seem like a ton of openings for a Daniel Murphy at 8+ million AND a real talent return.
One is that he's one of the best if not the best position player in baseball. The other fact is his injury history is consistently bad. He's such a good player, I'd give up Thor or an equivalent package in spite of the injuries but not much more.
and I think I read that they asked about him again yesterday (in addition to being interested in Gee).
Eric sure, there are some possibilities but I don't see any reason to believe a huge Murphy market opens up. 2b is unusually loaded with either good players, guys making lots of money or young "top" prospects. On paper the Giants don't line up very well (don't have a SS to give up for one) but I'm sure they could find a deal if the Mets really wanted to move Murphy.
Who is available that we should spend on that doesn't have a wart? The team worked hard to be fiscally sane for once, why ruin it? When the right player becomes available, the Mets will be one of the few teams able to take the risk (ie Tulo, Andrus).
Nobody is asking the Mets to spend foolishly. Andrew Miller would have been an excellent bullpen piece. Jon Lester would dominate at Citi Field, and replacing the fifth starter's innings with Lester would make a huge difference. Neither Lester nor Miller cost draft compensation. Even somebody like Hanley Ramirez would be worth it, he'll probably play a better outfield than Cuddyer and he can play SS in emergency scenarios, like if Flores doesn't hit.
Who is available that we should spend on that doesn't have a wart? The team worked hard to be fiscally sane for once, why ruin it? When the right player becomes available, the Mets will be one of the few teams able to take the risk (ie Tulo, Andrus).
This year doesn't exist in a vacuum. When talent HAS been available, they have shied away from paying the money to get in.
It's not good, but I think to some degree it's being overblown. Obviously they would need to check him out thoroughly and make sure he has a clean bill of health prior to doing any trade, and if there's any concern about something right now you cannot do that deal. But if you look at his history, I think some of the concerns are overstated considering 4 of the last 6 years he has gone over 500 AB's and he's had at least a 5 WAR in each ('09, '10, '11, '13). Last year he also had a 5 WAR season making it 5/6, though obviously he also got hurt. Looking at his 2 injury plagued seasons:
In 2012 he injured his groin, re-aggravating the injury a few different times as it was originally misdiagnosed as a strain that turned out to be a buildup of scar tissue that had to be removed in an arthroscopic procedure (article below compares it to a sports hernia).
In 2014 this is obviously the biggest concern as the hip and groin injuries could be interrelated (and the labrum that he just had surgery on was even referenced in the 2012 article). Do the experts think this issue (and by extension the other leg/groin issues) are sound or are there still red flags? That's really the major question because the rest of the injuries in his history are more of the fluke variety that can happen to anyone (lacerated hand, broken wrist). A Rockies beat writer mentioned that they expect him to be ready for the beginning of Spring Training, but who knows. 2012 Summary Of Tulo Injuries - ( New Window )
Other than the IFA market, which major traded player that the mets were rumored to be in was moved and you regretted not getting them? Which obvious pick up was missed that would have made the Mets major contender?
not sure if I'm writing in white ink here or you're ignoring it.
How does Hanley not improve the Mets?
He'd be my SS, he played 115 games there. Eventually he'll move to the OF or 2B, but for 2015 a lineup of:
Lagares CF
Murphy 2B
Wright 3B
Hanley SS
Duda 1B
Cuddyer RF/LF
TDA C
Granderson LF/RF
P
add a bullpen arm and if the pitching pitches Mets aren't just wild card contenders they're legit contenders WITH bounce backs to career avg by Wright and Grandy.
Not sure why mets fans assume he can only be traded for a 25 year old A ball utility player? A decent comp is Alexei Ramirez. Similar last 3/4 years. Similar contract situation. Different age age position. But they are both consistent. Top ten at their position etc. yet Sox are asking for teams top prospect for him, yet Met fans are hoping for a top 15 prospect for Murphy.
Not saying Murphy brings in a huge haul. But trading him fills holes. He won't be given away for nothing.
An aging "SS" with a history of injuries and attitude issues - you want to bank on that? He is the complete opposite of what the Mets want in a player. Collins would HATE him. Great talent, but that's a paper move and not a realistic move.
Especially when the plan includes moving him to 2B or LF. Two positions the Mets have their four best hitting prospects coming up soon.
Not sure why mets fans assume he can only be traded for a 25 year old A ball utility player? A decent comp is Alexei Ramirez. Similar last 3/4 years. Similar contract situation. Different age age position. But they are both consistent. Top ten at their position etc. yet Sox are asking for teams top prospect for him, yet Met fans are hoping for a top 15 prospect for Murphy.
Not saying Murphy brings in a huge haul. But trading him fills holes. He won't be given away for nothing.
Where did anyone imply Murphy would only bring back some turd? Alexei Ramirez isn't a valid comp at all though. SS is insanely hard to fill and Ramirez is locked up for 2 years vs. Murphy's one. Ramirez brings back a ton more than Murphy. Ramirez last 2 seasons is top 5 in baseball in fWAR at SS.
how we never, ever hear of teams hot for Murphy yet Ramirez had teams all over him before the White Sox eventually said he wasn't available. A slick fielding SS with any offense is going to have a ton more value than Daniel Murphy before you even get to contract situations.
An aging "SS" with a history of injuries and attitude issues - you want to bank on that? He is the complete opposite of what the Mets want in a player. Collins would HATE him. Great talent, but that's a paper move and not a realistic move.
Especially when the plan includes moving him to 2B or LF. Two positions the Mets have their four best hitting prospects coming up soon.
You can talk yourself out of any player if you dig deep enough.
Ruth is fat, drinks a lot, womanizes and eats too many hot dogs. He's going to break down quickly. Pass.
Other than the IFA market, which major traded player that the mets were rumored to be in was moved and you regretted not getting them? Which obvious pick up was missed that would have made the Mets major contender?
I mean, the IFA market is a pretty big example. We can't just leave that out of the discussion. It's known that typical free agency isn't very fruitful these days.
1B was a major questionmark coming into this season. They had Ike Davis and Duda, they chose to roll with Duda instead of even getting involved with Abreu. Duda had a season that validates what they did, so they lucked out, but they still waved away a chance at a highly regarded talent at a need position.
I think you have a point to some degree -- other than the SPs, where we are deep, there is no one screaming as a great fit. I think if the Yankees had our payroll and system and stadium (but their revenues), they would have signed Hanley and Lester, and then traded Wheeler or Thor for a young SP. The big market teams dont "bank" on the big UFAs like Hanley -- they have several $15+ million players. Only the small market teams look at their payroll and say "we have only one or two slots for guys making $15 million and a total aversion to long term money". $15 million is what a 2 WAR player goes for.
But your belief that they Mets are willing to spend but just dont see anything to spend it on (or will pay for the COL or TX SS) are just contradicted by the record. Sandy just made clear that payroll is capped. Is he a liar? If what he meant was "we'll got to $115 million for the right player" then why wouldnt he phrase things in a more open ended way? Do you think he is unnecessarily antagonizing the fans?
he can definitely play SS for at least two of them (he's only 30 years old).
And then if he gets moved off SS, the Mets are SUPPOSED to be a team that can deal with that annual 20M bloat if it comes to that.
not one that shrivels up and becomes non-competitive because of one bad contract.
but in my thinking he's a SS for 2015 and 2016 and fills a major hole and improves the team and look at someone like Soriano, he moved to the OF and struggled, but eventually became passable there.
The Mets are considering placing Matt Harvey on the disabled list during the summer if it helps extend his season into September and October.
Fatigue can manifest itself in ways that warrant a disabled list, Sandy Alderson recently explained to reporters. Well just have to see how he does.
Harvey is currently rehabbing from October 2013 Tommy John surgery, and has said he is on board with New Yorks plan to manage his innings next season.
The Mets have internally discussed a 7-day disabled list stint for resting pitchers, but have not petitioned MLB for the option, GM Sandy Alderson said (Rubin, Dec. 5).
anybody here wants the team to spend money for the sake to spend money.. so put away the excuses.
the fact is the team needs to shred payroll to add payroll, and that's disgusting. adding an aging injury prone OF as your "move" is not improving a young team to contention.
the "answer" doesn't need to be a shortstop. It can be a potential impact 2B.. could've been an impact OFer.
so what does this team have?
1B who can't hit lefties
2B who rakes and they are trying to trade
SS who knows
3B coming off of an injury and a horid year
RF for 3 more years who has had averaged .230 in the past 3 years with 140+ks and .320 OBP
CF.. finally a bright spot!
LF who will be 36 at spring training..Games Played past 4 years: 139, 101, 130, 49. He can rake...when he plays
C - hopefully we get Jeckyll and not Hyde moving forward
SP - excellent
BP - could be very good
The pitching will have to carry this team. Obviously. And if Wright doesn't "come back", it's going to be a long year. There's NO reason to believe that Granderson will revert to his stats when he played at Yankee Stadium where a pop up was a HR.
Where can they improve? OF is now set, like it or not. 3B/1B is set. Middle infield is the only fix.. and they won't even bid on who MAY be a star 2b/SS from Cuba
The Mets are considering placing Matt Harvey on the disabled list during the summer if it helps extend his season into September and October.
Fatigue can manifest itself in ways that warrant a disabled list, Sandy Alderson recently explained to reporters. Well just have to see how he does.
Harvey is currently rehabbing from October 2013 Tommy John surgery, and has said he is on board with New Yorks plan to manage his innings next season.
The Mets have internally discussed a 7-day disabled list stint for resting pitchers, but have not petitioned MLB for the option, GM Sandy Alderson said (Rubin, Dec. 5).
Here are six things we learned about the Rangers from [ESPN Dallas reporter Calvin] Watkins during the interview
1) They want a guy that can throw 175 innings, someone that can be a number three starter.
2) They like Dillon Gee, who lives an hour away from their ballpark.
3) They talked with the Padres about acquiring Tyson Ross, who is their favorite.
4) They are seeing a lot of interest in Jurickson Profar, but interested teams say the asking price is too high given his recent injuries.
5) Profar may start throwing again in January, but hes yet to have consistent stability in his shoulder, which may or may not need surgery and is in need of being stronger.
6) They prefer to to keep Elvis Andrus, especially after coming off a down year.
just a guess but I think the idea is you want your best pitchers making MORE starts not less. Taking starts from deGrom, Wheeler, Thor (when he's up) for lesser guys for a team trying to compete is the downside. deGrom and Wheeler both should be able to give you 200+ innings 30+ starts this season.
Re Murphy. It's been discussed since the all star break, and many here feel the Mets won't get anything of value for him. Including you, Dan. I think you are missing the number of teams looking for a 2B. It's not a sexy position though.
Signing Hanley. He hasn't been a good SS in a while. Sox are already moving him off the position. Not looking for a "passable" fielder from a guy who has been known to be a pain in the ass. $22m/yr and a draft pick is a lot considering the Mets payroll reality.
Speaking of payroll. We know they CAN spend more. sandy has no incentive to tell the world what his true budget or ceiling is. And most importantly, if you shed Colon and Murphy's salary, never mind the return, wouldn't payroll be at $100 if they also acquired a star SS? Or lower depending on who they got? That's kind of a key here..
Re Murphy. It's been discussed since the all star break, and many here feel the Mets won't get anything of value for him. Including you, Dan. I think you are missing the number of teams looking for a 2B. It's not a sexy position though.
Signing Hanley. He hasn't been a good SS in a while. Sox are already moving him off the position. Not looking for a "passable" fielder from a guy who has been known to be a pain in the ass. $22m/yr and a draft pick is a lot considering the Mets payroll reality.
Speaking of payroll. We know they CAN spend more. sandy has no incentive to tell the world what his true budget or ceiling is. And most importantly, if you shed Colon and Murphy's salary, never mind the return, wouldn't payroll be at $100 if they also acquired a star SS? Or lower depending on who they got? That's kind of a key here..
Daniel Murphy has significantly less value than Ramirez. If you feel otherwise I don't know what to tell you but you are wrong. Not trying to be a dick but it's not very close.
few teams currently 1. don't have a solid 2b 2. Don't have a guy who is making too much money to sit (Aaron Hill types) 3. Don't have a top/good prospect either ready or close to ready 4. Willing to give up a good return AND pay Murphy 8.1 million right now. It's a very short list. Again, we almost never hear teams inquiring about Murphy. SS on the other hand is very, very thin.
Japanese SS Sandy referenced yesterday is Toritani. He's 34 years old in June.
"As I profiled back in November, Toritani has had a very successful eleven-year career with the Hanshin Tigers. The winner of a great deal of hardware, including Best-Nine and Golden Glove Awards, the Hamura native is a career .285/.372/.412 hitter. Perhaps more important than his actual numbers, he is a smart hitter. According to Yakult Swallows pitcher Tony Barnette, "As a pitcher, you try to mix it up with him. He's a smart hitter who will pick up a pattern. When I face him, I try to give him the best I have to offer and, once I release the ball, I hope he gets himself out. Hitters like him rarely get beat by pitchers. The reason he gets out is because he mis-hits the ball.""
Who is available that we should spend on that doesn't have a wart? The team worked hard to be fiscally sane for once, why ruin it? When the right player becomes available, the Mets will be one of the few teams able to take the risk (ie Tulo, Andrus).
Oh, enough already with this typical response to any discussion around spending. I expected this type of response the second we started talking about it. Show me where anybody is saying they should spend for the sake of spending? The point is that they are NEVER in on intl FAs and get scared off big time players because of their contracts (which some arent even that bad). At some point, you will need to pay for good players to complement what you have built. Otherwise the Mets will always be a fringe level type of team. Hell, they offered Balfour a contract where he would have earned LESS than what the Rays were offering him. Uncanny.
I've already agreed on IFAs, so not sure why that's brought up. But who are the big stars the mets legitky missed that would have turned the team around? I'm frustrated by the lack of spending like everyone, but it's not like we missed Trout in a trade due to a contract.
The paroll is around 100 million dollars. Fucking get over it. We spent like drunkin sailers for years and it got us nowhere. We can't spend because of Madoff . Until we start winning we aren't going to go substantially higher. Get over it. Deal with it. It is what it is. Are we just going to cry and cry and cry about it forever. 95 percent of the teams in baseball might like to add a Tulo too but probably can't. Tough shit. I'm focused on what is changing on the team and that is real talent and a team expected to challenge for the playoffs this year.
I've already agreed on IFAs, so not sure why that's brought up. But who are the big stars the mets legitky missed that would have turned the team around? I'm frustrated by the lack of spending like everyone, but it's not like we missed Trout in a trade due to a contract.
My point with Balfour is that the Mets essentially offered him less money tocome play for the Mets.
And there are plenty of players, whether through FA or trade, that the Mets could have used but they are rarely, if ever, in on them. It doesn't have to be just the superstars like trout or stanton.
I have no clue how you can say Hanley Ramirez wouldn't improve the Mets. Jon Lester wouldn't improve the Mets, Andrew Miller, David Robertson, Max Scherzer, Nelson Cruz, Yasmany Tomas, wouldn't all improve the Mets.
All of them make the Mets better in 2015.
Not sure what your point is, yes 100% the Mets could have signed players to improve their team and they did not.
The paroll is around 100 million dollars. Fucking get over it. We spent like drunkin sailers for years and it got us nowhere. We can't spend because of Madoff . Until we start winning we aren't going to go substantially higher. Get over it. Deal with it. It is what it is. Are we just going to cry and cry and cry about it forever. 95 percent of the teams in baseball might like to add a Tulo too but probably can't. Tough shit. I'm focused on what is changing on the team and that is real talent and a team expected to challenge for the playoffs this year.
The paroll is around 100 million dollars. Fucking get over it. We spent like drunkin sailers for years and it got us nowhere. We can't spend because of Madoff . Until we start winning we aren't going to go substantially higher. Get over it. Deal with it. It is what it is. Are we just going to cry and cry and cry about it forever. 95 percent of the teams in baseball might like to add a Tulo too but probably can't. Tough shit. I'm focused on what is changing on the team and that is real talent and a team expected to challenge for the playoffs this year.
The issue is - and always has been - is the Mets (Wilpon) keep claiming that Madoff is not impacting their spending (remember the press conference where Wilpon infamously took out a wad of money from his pocket?). Wilpon came out and said he will spend once they start winning; of course, that's the complete wrong way to go about it....
So, by Wilpon's own admisstion, they CAN spend money, but are choosing not to. THAT is what's infuriating. And we are reminded of that as they pass on guys that can help immediately, like Hanley, Lester, Miller, etc, etc, etc,
Out I'd by the Rays or not. It's a great non signing.
Big players or little, which game changer did they miss out on?
You keep asking, I keep answering, you keep pretending the answer isn't staring you in the face and asking the same question again. This is just this off-season. Last year there was Abreu, Ellsbury, Marlon Byrd, Robbie Cano, Phil Hughes, etc.
Quote:
I have no clue how you can say Hanley Ramirez wouldn't improve the Mets. Jon Lester wouldn't improve the Mets, Andrew Miller, David Robertson, Max Scherzer, Nelson Cruz, Yasmany Tomas, wouldn't all improve the Mets.
The paroll is around 100 million dollars. Fucking get over it. We spent like drunkin sailers for years and it got us nowhere. We can't spend because of Madoff . Until we start winning we aren't going to go substantially higher. Get over it. Deal with it. It is what it is. Are we just going to cry and cry and cry about it forever. 95 percent of the teams in baseball might like to add a Tulo too but probably can't. Tough shit. I'm focused on what is changing on the team and that is real talent and a team expected to challenge for the playoffs this year.
The issue is - and always has been - is the Mets (Wilpon) keep claiming that Madoff is not impacting their spending (remember the press conference where Wilpon infamously took out a wad of money from his pocket?). Wilpon came out and said he will spend once they start winning; of course, that's the complete wrong way to go about it....
So, by Wilpon's own admisstion, they CAN spend money, but are choosing not to. THAT is what's infuriating. And we are reminded of that as they pass on guys that can help immediately, like Hanley, Lester, Miller, etc, etc, etc,
Oh, and if they really can spend money like Wilpson claims they can (only once they get a winner, according to him), then they wouldn't have to "salary dump" a guy like Gee, who is making a paltry $5 million which, in today's MLB is pretty much chicken feed...
Salary dumped and there is no spot for him anyway. Some player will come back. And why did we offer Parnell arbitration on a question mark as we admittedly don't even know how he'll perform? Wouldn't it make sense to decline if we were so broke and trying to cut salary? Keeping Parnell around is a pretty expensive insurance policy.
'he said that the Mets' payroll, which was around $85M in 2014, had now pushed up to $100M-largly because of raises to players already on the roster and $21M, 2 year deal with Free Agent Michael Cuddyer - and that it was likely to stay at that figure right into the start of the 2015 season'
"MIGHT BE A LITTLE LOWER, MIGHT BE AT THAT LEVEL", ALDERSON SAID of the $100M NUMBER. "I DON'T EXPECT IT TO GO UP TOO MUCH, IF AT ALL"
so yah... where is he going to spend a ton of cash???
I know all about Hanley Ramirez who can't play SS and excellent one year wonder Miller who wanted closer money when we already have what should be a very good pen.
Salary dumped and there is no spot for him anyway. Some player will come back. And why did we offer Parnell arbitration on a question mark as we admittedly don't even know how he'll perform? Wouldn't it make sense to decline if we were so broke and trying to cut salary? Keeping Parnell around is a pretty expensive insurance policy.
You're missing the point on Gee - they are TRYING to salary dump him; whether or not they are successful is irrelevant.
Even with arbitration, Parnell is a pretty cheap insurance policy. They should have dumped him and gotten a guy like Miller. But no, they refuse to spend.
And stop with the hyperbole - of COURSE they are not broke! They only play in the biggest market and are what, 12th in payroll?
understand how any Met fan can defend the Wilpons on payroll. It baffles me honestly.
It's one thing to focus on the games and shelve payroll talk during the season, but this is winter meetings and it's frustrating seeing the Mets not even have a chance to get the best players.
only way we could realistically afford tulo's contract while keeping
I know all about Hanley Ramirez who can't play SS and excellent one year wonder Miller who wanted closer money when we already have what should be a very good pen.
Ramirez is a better all around SS then anyone they have on the roster right now. And Miller has done more than Parnell ever has.
on a playoff team last year batted .400 in the playoffs, stole bases and HAD 0 errors in the NLDS, but one off-season later he can't play SS for the Mets.
Ok.
RE: only way we could realistically afford tulo's contract while keeping
payroll under 110 million would be to trade murphy and gee and get prospects or cheap players back and have Colorado pick up some salary
Again, you are missing the point; they don't HAVE to artificially keep payroll at something so ludicrously low (for a NY based team) as 110 - they are choosing to, which is what infuriates every Mets fan. Well, every fan except for you, apparently...
RE: only way we could realistically afford tulo's contract while keeping
payroll under 110 million would be to trade murphy and gee and get prospects or cheap players back and have Colorado pick up some salary
That's completely fine with me (and not unfair). Flores could reasonably have a shot at matching or bettering Murphy's production at a minimum price (plus Herrera and Reynolds are options in AAA).
And trading Gee/Murphy to replenish some of the prospects lost in a Tulo trade makes sense considering neither are likely to receive long term contracts here under any circumstances.
I am honestly confused as to why this is even an argument
The mets entered last year 22nd out of 30 teams in payroll. Yet despite that they are generally valued around 4th by Forbes. The mets charge New York City money for attendance and what not yet do not put a similar ratio into their on field product. Instead ownership seems to think that fans should more actively support what has been a putrid product and once that occurs they will start to reinvest more in the on field product.
I would say the vast majority of the fans are frankly offended by this stance which seems to be shortsighted and hypocritical at best. Zgiants I understand you tend to take a positive outlook which is refreshing but to simply accept that what the Wilpons have done over the last 6 years is at all acceptable is just not going to happen. We all get the payroll is going to be 100 million(frankly I bet it opens up around 95), but the point is it should be much higher and that is something that will always piss off fans.
Was the worst defensive SS in baseball, (starter, bench, or otherwise) save for Yunel Escobar. 63rd out of 64th. He is beyond awful at this stage of his career.
Was the worst defensive SS in baseball, (starter, bench, or otherwise) save for Yunel Escobar. 63rd out of 64th. He is beyond awful at this stage of his career.
And his offensive numbers would dwarf any SS currently on the Mets roster
RE: I am honestly confused as to why this is even an argument
Flores is Rey Ordonez compared to Hanley defensively at this point in his life.
Did you watch Hanley play SS at all or are you just quoting stats you don't understand. You come across as pretty clueless here. Flore is pretty much a Hanley clone defensively, if that.
RE: RE: I am honestly confused as to why this is even an argument
Flores is Rey Ordonez compared to Hanley defensively at this point in his life.
Did you watch Hanley play SS at all or are you just quoting stats you don't understand. You come across as pretty clueless here. Flore is pretty much a Hanley clone defensively, if that.
What's even stranger is that earlier in this thread he was saying that the Mets should have less of a need for defense, since the pitching staff they have (or will have soon, with Thor, etc) is a strikeout staff.
You would think that he'd be OK with a defensively weak SS who can hit.
RE: RE: RE: I am honestly confused as to why this is even an argument
is that the Mets will be turned over to the piece of shit son in time. It will be like the Dolans at MSG, except with more of a culture of dishonesty and penny pinching.
Flores is Rey Ordonez compared to Hanley defensively at this point in his life.
Did you watch Hanley play SS at all or are you just quoting stats you don't understand. You come across as pretty clueless here. Flore is pretty much a Hanley clone defensively, if that.
Dude. I'm clueless? UZR, dWAR, look at whatever you want? Hanley Ramirez was epic bad last year and every team in baseball has acknowledged he no longer can play there. Flores was 10th in UZR once he qualified out of 64 players!! Ramirez was 63! Are you insane?
is that the Mets will be turned over to the piece of shit son in time. It will be like the Dolans at MSG, except with more of a culture of dishonesty and penny pinching.
They already have for the most part. Nobody who has any dealings with Jeffy come away unscathed.
Flores is Rey Ordonez compared to Hanley defensively at this point in his life.
Did you watch Hanley play SS at all or are you just quoting stats you don't understand. You come across as pretty clueless here. Flore is pretty much a Hanley clone defensively, if that.
What's even stranger is that earlier in this thread he was saying that the Mets should have less of a need for defense, since the pitching staff they have (or will have soon, with Thor, etc) is a strikeout staff.
You would think that he'd be OK with a defensively weak SS who can hit.
No actually I didn't. I said I wonder if they ever have done a study about whether or not run support or gold glovers is more valuable but I wasn't considering an absolute butcher. Should we move Duda at SS? He sure would put up sweet numbers there!!!
"Last year there was Abreu, Ellsbury, Marlon Byrd, Robbie Cano, Phil Hughes, etc." and "I have no clue how you can say Hanley Ramirez wouldn't improve the Mets. Jon Lester wouldn't improve the Mets, Andrew Miller, David Robertson, Max Scherzer, Nelson Cruz, Yasmany Tomas, wouldn't all improve the Mets."
So your specific detailed list of players the Mets missed out due to money is a list of free agents from the past two years? And not the busts like Choo, Beltran, etc?
Not sure why you keep bringing up IFA guys, when I couldn't be more clear I agree they should have been more aggressive there. So let's scratch off the Tomas, Abreu and Tanaka's from the list
Did the Mets really lose Byrd and Hughes due to moeny? When they signed guys who play the exact same position to more expensive contracts? So let's cross Byrd and Hughes off the list.
Name the deepest position on the Mets? Pitching? So they should pay 7/$175 for Scherzer and Lester when long time SP deals have historically never worked out? Or the big money to bullpen that most teams avoid, especially when you are overflowing with young bullpen arms. Can't have your cake and eat it - sign one of those guys but then you arent allowed to bitch about the lack of offense next year since you can't sign a hitter or two. Enjoy Tejada at SS lol
Cano and Ellsbury? Seriously? You want to have the Mets hand out 10 year deals now? Why leave Choo out of the conversation - imagine that mistake? But let's say the Mets signed them both. Legares and Murphy to the bench I guess? So you spent $46mm instead of $6mm. Went from 6.6 WAR to 8.8 WAR. Congrats, you just broke a world record and spent $20mm/WAR. Still miss the playoffs with a 79 win team... I'll even throw in a Cruz signing (why would the Mets sign a DH anyway?) Another 4 wins. YEAH - we were over .500 with 83 wins... But you have to remove Conforto, Ramos, etc from the minors since we lost the draft picks.
were clearly interested in Johnny Peralta until the coupons found out what the cost would be and then put the breaks on. Peralta would be a huge upgrade over whatever we have at SS.
Also, dismissing the lack of IFA signings makes no sense because it's a large part of the problem. The fact that you agree with it isn't relevant.
You asked what FA's did the Mets not sign who would have improved the team.
It's a simple question and I provided a simple answer.
I wasn't advocating the signing of anyone. simply answering a question.
If you don't think Cano would have made the Mets better last year, and Ellsbury last year, etc. you know very little about baseball. Of course they would have.
And signing Lester this year? Sure, the Mets don't need Lester.
But which rotation is better?
Harvey
Wheeler
DeGrom
Lester
Colon/Niese/Gee
Or
Harvey
Wheeler
deGrom
Colon
Niese/Gee
Again, if you don't know the answer to that question you know little about baseball.
Hes obviously played with it for some time and what the ultimate symptom has been is a soft-tissue injury, Daniels said. So when he gets back and throws at a certain distance the instability is leading to the muscle injury.
Profar has elected, with the clubs blessing, to try a different rehab regime, which requires physical therapy and exercises to build up the shoulder muscle to stabilize it and prevent surgery.
Obviously, the setback will prevent Profar from playing winter ball and could delay his return to the major league roster in the spring.
Well see, Daniels said. Thats getting way ahead of ourselves. I wouldnt even venture a guess. I want to get him healthy right now. If hes healthy and hes on the roster then hell be in competition for a spot. Thats probably two or three steps beyond where we are right now.
For now, Profar hopes an alternate rehab approach speeds his return to throwing.
At some point in the off-season hell start a throwing program again, Daniels said. Were going to wait until he gets a clean MRI, which may be three months, it may be sooner. Its really going to depend on when the MRI is completely clean, then hell start throwing at that point.
Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/09/23/6143785/profars-return-from-shoulder-injury.html#storylink=cpy
Not changing anything. From the beginning my question was specifically which impact players have the Mets out on purely due to finances in the past few years that would have made them contenders. Not sure how this became a pissing match with you, since there were several complaining about the lack of spending, and you are the only one standing up to that argument.
My question was, were the Mets on the verge of acquiring Stanton but backed out due to money? Trout? Price? Tulo? Ellsbury? Cano? No, none of them.
Would the Mets be better with Cano and Ellsbury last year. I think I answered that. 2.2 wins better. Almost would have gotten us to .500. Sucks that in a couple years we would be saddled with their contracts and minus Conforto and Ramos, but I would always fondly look back at the season to remember, the 2014 almost .500 Mets.
Better with Lester? Of course, name me one team in all of baseball that would be worse with him in 2015. But do I give up a pick and tie up 7/$175mmm into him when we are already overflowing with pitching? Thanks but no thanks, there are only so many 1-0 Lester losses I would be able to take.
Did you really have to hand him the Perralta pursuit? I left that out there but he refused to grab and run with it. Absolutely, he was 100% lost due to the years/money shocking Alderson. Completely misread the market. And he would have definitely helped the team, no doubt.
So I have to argue against a lack of IFA aggressiveness, when I believe they should have been? Sorry - I can't do that :)
Hopefully it changes soon.
you don't take WAR and say that's how many wins difference the team would be.
if that were the case, add up the WAR of all the Mets players and they're what a 30 win team?
second of all why would you assume Ellsbury means no Lagares. When clearly it makes a lot more sense for Ellsbury to mean no Chris Young.
If the Mets added Ellsbury, Cano, and Jon Lester this is a World Series contender and the payroll is 135M (because I subtract Cuddyer, Murphy, Gee, and maybe a couple more.
now to be clear, I am not suggesting to do this, but when you try and play the "what players could the Mets have signed that would have improved them?" game you come across as an ownership ball washer.
there were many, many players that could have been added and improved the Mets.
That if the mets went into this year with a payroll of 140 (realistically where they should be), that they wouldn't stand a much better chance of winning the World Series.
I understand the sentiment that us constantly griping about the Wilpons isn't productive but it's honestly hard to have a conversation about what the 2015 mets could be without the fan bases anger towards the Wilpons come out. I know cano is an extreme example but if you subtract Murphy and pencil in cano it's probably a difference of 15 million per but this lineup would be much scarier. Also since cano is a fairly elite defender shithead Collins may actually agree to play Flores at ss instead of trolling us with tejada threats.
Such as Choo, Beltran, etc. You keep changing the game, yet alone the rules. I didnt say play monday morning GM. I asked who did they miss out on acquiring due to money. Perralta is the only answer.
I'll drop it at this point, because you are the only one fighting the fight. And oh, by the way. Im kinda sorta pretty sure that I know how WAR works lol
Did you really have to hand him the Perralta pursuit? I left that out there but he refused to grab and run with it. Absolutely, he was 100% lost due to the years/money shocking Alderson. Completely misread the market. And he would have definitely helped the team, no doubt.
So I have to argue against a lack of IFA aggressiveness, when I believe they should have been? Sorry - I can't do that :)
Hopefully it changes soon.
I think the lack of IFA + letting Reyes go + cheaping out on Peralta + ignoring Miller/Robinson (although this one is clearly debatable) + having a bottom 10 payroll every year makes it hard to doubt that this team clearly has payroll issues and that it's preventing management from doing their best to improve the team.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that we can't win with our current payroll/setup. There's tons of talent in this org, and 2015 will be fun, even if we stand pat. It's just that I find it frustrating that Sandy's options are very limited because of our payroll.
Hopefully we win 95 games this year and this issue never comes up again (see how no one complains about Wang anymore on Islander threads) but so long as the team has a bottom 10 payroll and a 5+ year streak of below .500 finishes, it's something that can't be ignored in offseason/roster building discussion IMO.
Jared Diamond @jareddiamond 26s26 seconds ago
Sandy Alderson says it's more likely a shortstop is acquired via free agency rather than trade.
I'm some level of "fine" with that. Stephen Drew had a terrible year that still produced more XBH than Tejada and was on pace for 2+ WAR defensively (had 4 DRS according to fangraphs). Lowrie had an equally terrible year that was still close to 2 WAR overall (again according to Fangraphs). Both can play SS or 2nd, have career OPS over .700, and would likely be affordable deals for their age 30/31 seasons. No reason not to try with either player, but Drew on a 1 year deal would probably be my preference.
but take payroll out if it for a second. Clearly one of Sandy's top objectives along with his front office coming in HAD to have been to rebuild our system and develop a cost effective team that could be a winner for years to come. Our team had been saddled with horrific contracts for as long as I could remember. I still would kick Omar right in the balls for some his contracts(Castilo?)
Yes Madoff hit us right when Sandy was being brought in and Im sure he wasn't prepared for that. Yes we had to lose Reyes because of it. Yes the Wilpons told him to slash payroll because they were in deep shit for a while. But didn't Sandy bring us from point A to point B? We traded off whatever value we had for some of the better young talent in all of baseball. We purposely went after high school players, knowing this was a 4-5 year process that would not happen over night.
The fruits of his labors are finally here(or almost here). Isn't this what we all suffered for and have been waiting for? I know it's what Ive been waiting for. If you asked me if I would have rather had a 150 million dollar payroll and to keep going down the path we were going down for another 20 years OR a complete cleansing rebuild done from the ground up that someday would allow us flexibility to put a SUSTAINABLE winner on the field but we had to slash the bloated contracts on the team and operate around 85-100 million for 4-5 years... I would have taken option B 1000 times out of a 1000.
And yeah as good as Sherzer and Lester are. I want to see Syndergaard and Matz have a shot at those spots. This is what we've waited for. Not a chance to spend 300 million in an offseason and strap this team and bring us right back to where we started for a quick fix.
You go to Metsblog and he writes about his inside knowledge that is up to date from his insides and contacts. What it really is, is a rehas of everything that was put out on the Internet hours ago
Yes they absolutely needed to rebuild the farm system and yes they absolutely had to stop giving out horrible contracts. But letting Reyes walk had nothing to do with either of those things and last year might have been a hell of a lot different had they just made that 1 move differently.
And you are only fooling yourself if you dismiss the Reyes decision as something they did "in the past" because the reality is they haven't shown that they would handle it any differently today. Hanley and Tulo are both out there for similar contracts and they haven't shown an inkling of interest in either one (nor Andrus).
They needed to, and successfully did, restock the farm system to generate a more sustainable base of talent. But they have not followed through on supplementing that inexperienced talent base enough to make them a contender. And this is the time to spend because as soon as Harvey, Wheeler, JdG, Mejia, start hitting arbitration, then what?
Reyes paid for Madoff's sins. He was our one bog loss due to the situation. Everybody else probably needed to go.
As to if we should be spending like crazy yet? No I don't think so sorry. The younger players aren't even all here yet. Matz and Syndergaard are still in AAA along with Herrera, Plawecki, Nimmo, and soon to be Conforto. SOME have hit the stage and we are almost there but Im not ready to start plugging holes with square parts and money galore when we haven't even seen what we have yet. A year from now, Flores could be viewed as Starling Castro. A year from now Syndergaard could be our next ace. Nimmo could be our next top of the order Choo type bat.
That's why I am fine with being patient for at least one more year. I think Cuddyer and Granderson, and Colon all have similar aspects in common. They are all placeholders. All that said I think we are a wild card team this year and this team won't be hitting free agency until 2018-2020. That's when Ill be praying we have money(to retain our own guys)
If Reyes was a free agent right now, what would you do?
to point out that with zero additions in the next 5 years(we keep everyone the same) this is likely a 180 million dollar payroll team. Let's enjoy having this much talent packed into one roster for a little shall we? Its not going to last forever.
RE: If Reyes was a free agent right now, what would you do?
Because I can tell you what the Mets wouldn't do. That's the mistake many of us are first guessing and calling out for what it is.
If Reyes was looking for a 3-4 reasonable deal I bet he would be considered. But free agency is crazy lately. If he was getting a 7 year deal at this age now with his current injury history I sadly would let him walk and see through the Cechinni's, Roasrio's, ect. I'd look for a placeholder if Flores really couldn't hack it.
Hanley Ramirez got exactly what Reyes has remaining on his contract
at this exact moment in time (4 years/88M). Fangraphs had them at almost the exact same WAR last year (3.4 for Hanley, 3.3 for Reyes) and they actually had Hanley with a better DRS. But the Mets didn't even entertain that discussion.
And don't worry about missing out on Andrew Miller
Andy Martino @MartinoNYDN 28m28 minutes ago
Source says #mets met personally with Craig Breslow today, but definite vibe I'm getting is team not currently in serious pursuit.
RE: And don't worry about missing out on Andrew Miller
Andy Martino @MartinoNYDN 28m28 minutes ago
Source says #mets met personally with Craig Breslow today, but definite vibe I'm getting is team not currently in serious pursuit.
Isn't this the guy you wanted nothing to do with? lol. Uh. We'll get a Loogy my man. Don't you worry.
I'd just like to see them identify a target and go for them instead of always waiting for the last man standing willing to accept whatever they have. Like they did with Cuddyer.
was clearly the second best lefty reliever in free agency and Miller is gone so shouldn't you be happier they are looking for a trade and a better piece then settling for Breslow?
RE: Hanley Ramirez got exactly what Reyes has remaining on his contract
at this exact moment in time (4 years/88M). Fangraphs had them at almost the exact same WAR last year (3.4 for Hanley, 3.3 for Reyes) and they actually had Hanley with a better DRS. But the Mets didn't even entertain that discussion.
You can't talk to some of these fans. they're brainwashed.
they want a winner so desperately they accept whatever morsel of hope management provides
at this exact moment in time (4 years/88M). Fangraphs had them at almost the exact same WAR last year (3.4 for Hanley, 3.3 for Reyes) and they actually had Hanley with a better DRS. But the Mets didn't even entertain that discussion.
You can't talk to some of these fans. they're brainwashed.
they want a winner so desperately they accept whatever morsel of hope management provides
More like the opposite. "Some of these fans" want a winner so desperately they'll accept sacrificing everything we worked so hard to accumulate for a broken down player in his 30s who can no longer play his position defensively.
What is being sacrificed by signing Hanley Ramirez?
Flores and Murphy in the lineup wouldn't be as good as "free agent" and Flores? Seems like Flores and Murphy would help the ball club offensively more than most free agent SS options out there.
As for signing a free agent SS? Who? Hanley is a joke. He's no longer a SS and was never coming here. He is a horrible fit for this team. So who else? Kang?
deal with no prospect on the cusp until who? Rosario and he's a couple years away at least.
a team so anemic for offense makes that trade-off.
Like Ben Cherington says:
Quote:
"There's just not that many opportunities in this game to bring in a player of Hanley's ability overall, particularly on the offensive side," Cherington said. "He's a very good base runner also. When those opportunities come up you have to avoid being too stubborn about what the rest of the picture looks like."
Flores and Murphy in the lineup wouldn't be as good as "free agent" and Flores? Seems like Flores and Murphy would help the ball club offensively more than most free agent SS options out there.
As for signing a free agent SS? Who? Hanley is a joke. He's no longer a SS and was never coming here. He is a horrible fit for this team. So who else? Kang?
He was not a "horrible" fit for the team. You're entitled to your opinion, of course.
You are right about him "never coming here", because Fred won't open up the purse strings...
I have a hard time believing Flores is much better defensively..
No fucking chance in hell Hanley plays SS the next 4 years. He likely never plays there again. WTF dude! Get off Hanley. He might have worked for LF or a DH. We don't need a LF or a DH last I checked.
And you two are the ones unhappy with Flores at SS because of his defense???????? That has to be a joke after listening to this Hanley nonsense right?
If you asked me if I would have rather had a 150 million dollar payroll and to keep going down the path we were going down for another 20 years OR a complete cleansing rebuild done from the ground up that someday would allow us flexibility to put a SUSTAINABLE winner on the field but we had to slash the bloated contracts on the team and operate around 85-100 million for 4-5 years... I would have taken option B 1000 times out of a 1000.
Not surprisingly, you're still missing the point. The Mets did not have to choose between one thing OR the other. There is a balance, and they could have done both.
you guys are looking at Hanley like the former Marlin. He was absolutely wretched at SS last year. Horrible. The Red Sox and any other team looking to acquire him was no longer looking at him as a SS. I can find you a million quotes if you like.
No fucking chance in hell Hanley plays SS the next 4 years. He likely never plays there again. WTF dude! Get off Hanley. He might have worked for LF or a DH. We don't need a LF or a DH last I checked.
And you two are the ones unhappy with Flores at SS because of his defense???????? That has to be a joke after listening to this Hanley nonsense right?
In two years, when Hanley might not be able to play SS, we'll have a need in OF - Ganderson will be gone, and the guys on the farm may or may not work out.
And point out where I said I'd be unhappy with Flores and SS.
If you asked me if I would have rather had a 150 million dollar payroll and to keep going down the path we were going down for another 20 years OR a complete cleansing rebuild done from the ground up that someday would allow us flexibility to put a SUSTAINABLE winner on the field but we had to slash the bloated contracts on the team and operate around 85-100 million for 4-5 years... I would have taken option B 1000 times out of a 1000.
Not surprisingly, you're still missing the point. The Mets did not have to choose between one thing OR the other. There is a balance, and they could have done both.
Not surprisingly your missing mine. They did have to choose because of Madoff and we all know that. Should we just sit in a cave and cry about bad ol' Bernie until the day we die??? There is nothing we can do about it. The good news is we came out exactly how most of us had always wanted this team to be anyway. This is called a rebuild. I know its shocking for most rooting for NYC teams but this is what it looks like. Time to see it through and complete this thing the right way. We are almost there.
you guys are looking at Hanley like the former Marlin. He was absolutely wretched at SS last year. Horrible. The Red Sox and any other team looking to acquire him was no longer looking at him as a SS. I can find you a million quotes if you like.
I saw him play plenty last year, thanks - I live on the west coast and saw many Giants/Dodgers games (plus other games)...
He only played half a season but he OPS'd over 1.000 which made his glove a non issue anyway.
Hanley's defense now isn't really any worse than it was when he was a Marlin. He's usually a net negative but his bat is always near or at the top for the position.
No fucking chance in hell Hanley plays SS the next 4 years. He likely never plays there again. WTF dude! Get off Hanley. He might have worked for LF or a DH. We don't need a LF or a DH last I checked.
And you two are the ones unhappy with Flores at SS because of his defense???????? That has to be a joke after listening to this Hanley nonsense right?
In two years, when Hanley might not be able to play SS, we'll have a need in OF - Ganderson will be gone, and the guys on the farm may or may not work out.
And point out where I said I'd be unhappy with Flores and SS.
I'll wait...
Was referring to PJ and Eric. Wasn't even talking to you.
If you asked me if I would have rather had a 150 million dollar payroll and to keep going down the path we were going down for another 20 years OR a complete cleansing rebuild done from the ground up that someday would allow us flexibility to put a SUSTAINABLE winner on the field but we had to slash the bloated contracts on the team and operate around 85-100 million for 4-5 years... I would have taken option B 1000 times out of a 1000.
Not surprisingly, you're still missing the point. The Mets did not have to choose between one thing OR the other. There is a balance, and they could have done both.
Not surprisingly your missing mine. They did have to choose because of Madoff and we all know that.
According to Fred, that was not the case. He would't lie to us, the lowly fans, would he?
players who graded out defensively the fact there is only ONE player worst then Hanley in all of baseball(bench or starter) AND every single team in baseball has OPENLY admitted he needs to be moved off SS means nothing and you guys know best. Got it.
I think Hanley is better. He's a proven middle of the order bat.
And for the billionth time it's not about me even advocating for this signing as much as it is about Shecky saying there were no options out there to improve the team in FA the past couple years. Which is 100% bullshit. The Mets chose not to sign them in favor of Grandy, Colon, Chris Young, Farnsworth, Valverde, Cuddyer, etc.
Ok Flore fan. Got it. Im pretty sure you don't view him as a SS and have been campaigning for a better option all year but if not I apologize. I know for sure Eric it's in that boat.
Hanley also graded out as the top offensive SS last year..
It's over and done, it is what it is. I just don't think Flores is going to be much better defensively than Hanley. I'm willing to live with it because I think he will hit. It's the same story with Hanley except he's a better hitter than Flores and will probably be more of a net positive.
I think Hanley is better. He's a proven middle of the order bat.
And for the billionth time it's not about me even advocating for this signing as much as it is about Shecky saying there were no options out there to improve the team in FA the past couple years. Which is 100% bullshit. The Mets chose not to sign them in favor of Grandy, Colon, Chris Young, Farnsworth, Valverde, Cuddyer, etc.
Exactly. Shecky somehow views Peralta as the only example of what we lost out on because of money and conveniently omits the fact that not even looking at FAs bc of money is an even bigger part of the problem. The mets arent in on anyone, ever.
offense. This was strictly about his defense. But I also think you are stretching it by saying Flores and Hanley will be the same defensively when Flores was a thousand times better last year(albeit in a limited sample). Also Hanley is in his 30's and likely about to start declining even further(offensively and defensively) and Flores is 22. I don't hate Hanley. I think he can hit but he just was not even remotely a fit for this team. Its beyond ludicrous.
Flores was "a thousand times better" is based on what?
Sandy says he "wouldn't panic" if Flores is the opening day SS, and I have more faith than our GM.
You have more faith than Flores's father.
No I have faith in Flores, Reynolds, Tovar in 2015 and that we'll still be able to make a trade at the deadline if we are in it and all three options are so bad they are dragging down the team because of it(extremely unlikely). Part of me wanting to see this rebuild through is seeing what we have in a ridiculously talented player like Flores. Not blocking him with an over aged player who can't play the position anyway.
His dWAR was in the negatives in less than half a season. He's probably not much better than Hanley defensively if at all.
Again, I like Flores... but let's not act like the guy is a slick fielding SS.
Im not but he had a positive UZR and Hanley was on a whole other level of bad. Flores also absolutely has the arm for short something nobody mentions and it would be wasted at 2nd. Either way...Again. Hanley made no sense on this team.
When this 4 year deal for Hanley ends he's still younger than Cuddyer & Colon - two of the last three major free agent signings and he's younger than Granderson was by two years when he was signed.
He was the starting SS for the playoff Dodgers, I don't get why he was such a bad fit for the Mets? He was good enough to play SS for the dodgers, but from October to December that became untenable.
you get stubborn views in your head sometimes and argue to the point of no return.
Wright is a gold glover. Hanley is the worst defensive SS in the game. Why were the Dodgers who have limitless money willing to let him walk. They couldn't afford a 4 year deal? Why are the Red Sox moving him immediately off SS? Ugh. Forget it. I can't believe we are still talking about him.
Spend. SPEND for the sake of spending. Pick the most expensive three free agents and just sign them. This is New York dammit.
I didn't say spend for the sake of spending. Just sign a few free agents and show you care. Like Cruz. Like Ellsbury. Like Cano. So we could win 83 games and not contend you know.
Then the next offseason "I can't believe we aren't spending more. We are so close. Spend another $50mm. Sign ten year deals. So next offseason I can say the same thing. I loved a roster of Bay, Castillo, Ollie, and Johan collecting checks for nothing at the end of their deals.
Again. Never said there were no players the Mets could have signed. Those I've chatted with in the past no what I agree with and disagree with this front office. Again. Which specific player were the fans clamor img for that would have made the Mets a contender? Anyone who is good at searching, please pull my quotes from earlier in the thread. Please.
Seriously, do me a fVor. Go back through the thread. Pull every quote from me. Count the number of times I said that. Then count the number of times people say I said that.
Seriously, do me a fVor. Go back through the thread. Pull every quote from me. Count the number of times I said that. Then count the number of times people say I said that.
I have no idea what your argument even is. You flip out on people for questioning the Mets finances saying that everyone wants them to spend just to spend and you point out the shitty deals like Jason Bay, etc. as some sort of "proof" that spending money means poor allocation of resources.
The point some of us are trying to make is that despite hearing constantly about "flexibility" the Mets have taken the cheapest road possible in nearly every instance.
Personally, I just don't buy that they will spend on the "right" guy. I think they will avoid it as often as possible and try to keep the payroll as low as they can. When you hear that they're just trying to move Gee for salary relief, what else would anyone logically think?
your implication was the Mets made no major moves because there was no impact player available to them.
if you deny that then I think everyone misunderstood you.
my point was NEVER advocating signing these guys, but absolutely they could have made the Mets contenders.
And you can't add WAR like you did to come up with win differentials. it's not how it works.
my point wasn't the Mets have to sign Hanley Ramirez, but I do believe they could have done so, and would have been better for it and for at least a couple of those years he could have been their SS.
I think everyone is arguing for the sake of killing time while anxiously awaiting big news that hasn't come. Lol.
I didn't mean to imply anything. I get annoyed hearing everyone always botch about spending. I want TALENT, and don't care about payroll. Typically talent cost money, so I know cheap talent is the most valuable. Give me a team last year of Stanton, Trout and Bryce Harper and the middle of the lineup and I'm a happy man. All that probably cost less than Grandy did.
My point was, it's not like a deal was sitting there waiting to be done. But the Wilpons squashed it because of money. There WERE deals to be made. Aldersons drags his damn feet and it hurt, that's another story. Team could have improved, and it's not about money.
Anyway, hoping they swing for the fences at short. And it isn't a swing and miss.
Actually it kinda does. There's the baseline, and you work from there. No formula or percentage or anything. It's an extremely complex package dumbed down into a number fans can understand, that's all it is. But ultimately the idea is if you replace a 1 WAR player with a 4WAR player, the team should win 3 more games through the season.
You can't add up the teams WAR and ignore the baseline, that's all. For simplicity. A team full of AAAA players will still win about 45-50 games.
- I have no problem with Wilmer Flores getting a shot at SS, but it's asinine to pass up better options just to keep the roster open for him. There's no downside to bringing in a Drew/Lowrie/Brad Miller/Taylor/etc. Giving up on the offseason now and handing him innings at a position most in the organization doubted he could play (and perhaps some innings to Tejada as well) is what I am against.
- I would absolutely be willing to pencil Wilmer Flores in right now to play every day at the position he's most likely to succeed at, and would actually upgrade defensively, which is 2B. But to do that they'd have to trade Murphy, which is somewhat complicated by the fact that their "big signing" in LF is about as reliable as Moises Alou. Had they signed a stronger LF'er (like Hanley) perhaps it would be easier to trade Murphy's bat? And even still if they could get a fair return for Murphy I'd be ok with that because he's a flawed player who clearly isn't in their plans beyond this season.
Look, there's still a lot of offseason left but all I've said is that I think it would be a huge mistake to write in the opening day lineup card of Flores - Murphy right now when it's supposed to be a "pitching first" team. To do nothing to protect that potential defensive situation would be penny wise and pound foolish. And we don't need to rehash and re-argue any of this I know how you feel - defensive stats are a waste when it comes to Murph and Cuddyer being dead last at their respective positions and Flores not getting to any balls out of his zone and TdA's throwing %/errors, but not when it comes to Hanley Ramirez - who just played 120 games at SS on a 94 win team.
Marc Carig @MarcCarig 6m6 minutes ago
Earlier, Alderson mentioned just 2-3 viable trade options for Mets. Told that the Ms Chris Taylor and Brad Miller are in that group.
I think everyone is arguing for the sake of killing time while anxiously awaiting big news that hasn't come. Lol.
I didn't mean to imply anything. I get annoyed hearing everyone always botch about spending. I want TALENT, and don't care about payroll. Typically talent cost money, so I know cheap talent is the most valuable. Give me a team last year of Stanton, Trout and Bryce Harper and the middle of the lineup and I'm a happy man. All that probably cost less than Grandy did.
My point was, it's not like a deal was sitting there waiting to be done. But the Wilpons squashed it because of money. There WERE deals to be made. Aldersons drags his damn feet and it hurt, that's another story. Team could have improved, and it's not about money.
Anyway, hoping they swing for the fences at short. And it isn't a swing and miss.
First, please stop bringing up that fans are clamoring for the Mets to spend for the sake of spending. Nowhere in this thread (or anywhere for that matter) has anyone said that.
Second, this is a silly argument that nobody is going to walk away happy with because of the drastically different views. But are you going to tell me that if the Mets added two of Cruz/Ramirez/Cano/Ellsbury and you think this is still a 83 win team? If so, than that's absurd and we can stop the conversation right now. The Mets are a team in desperate need of offense...that's what those options give you.
You said "Team could have improved, and it's not about money." It absolutely is about money. There's a reason why the Ownership obviously wants the Mets to be a $95 mill salary team. And that's probably where we will end up on opening day. There have been plenty of opportunities to add a player (via trade/FA/Int'l FA) over the past few seasons that would have improved this team for the long run. But we have be involved with very very few of them. Instead opting for the bargain basement on 1 or 2 year deals. They've done a great job of building a foundation of young talent, now they have to supplement that young talent with proven talent. That's the way it's done.
Tell me how many teams with a bottom 10 payroll make the playoffs, let alone contend for the WS. Missed opportunities. It doesn't mean we need to have a $150 mill payroll but trying to get by on $95 Mill just isn't going to do it. Look at all the teams at that have a $95 mill payroll or lower and tell me i'm wrong. I just isn't enough.
lol. Whatever dude. You say "The Mets must MAKE MORE MOVES" before they will be competitive. Your stance has softened a TON if you are now only saying you hope we bring in a Drew, Taylor, or Miller as competition for him. Im fine with that too but how does that jump us into the competitive mark in your mind? lol.
Trading Murphy, sliding Flores over to 2nd(who you have no idea whether he will be any better defensively or not) and signing a Drew isn't doing jackshit for this team. It likely is a MAJOR downgrade.
Flores AND Murphy in the lineup is likely far better offensively then "imaginary SS" and Flores. Defensively, you MAY improve but we don't really know that either. Flores is such a detriment at SS but he'll suddenly be a stud at 2nd?
Sooooo, let me get this straight. You say it's not about the money? You aren't saying they should "spend more money" for the sake of spending??
It's about the money, and they need to increase payroll? Your quotes. Nothing about talent, just money, money, money.
Quote:
It absolutely is about money.
Followed by:
There have been plenty of opportunities to add a player (via trade/FA/Int'l FA) over the past few seasons that would have improved this team for the long run. But we have be involved with very very few of them. Instead opting for the bargain basement on 1 or 2 year deals.
And followed by:
Tell me how many teams with a bottom 10 payroll make the playoffs, let alone contend for the WS. Missed opportunities. It doesn't mean we need to have a $150 mill payroll but trying to get by on $95 Mill just isn't going to do it. Look at all the teams at that have a $95 mill payroll or lower and tell me i'm wrong. I just isn't enough.
Just FYI, if you add up all the WAR for every player on a MLB team and add 48, the estimated number of wins for a team with all replacement level players, that should bring you pretty close to the team's actual number of wins. Baseball-Reference.com WAR Explained - ( New Window )
Still when the difference between playoff contention and the Mets is 9 wins and really less than that to be in legit contention. adding two to three players over the past two off-seasons different than the ones added you can easily make up that difference, which was the point I was making.
I'm not a baseball fan, but it just popped up on my Twitter that
FYI, since I was asked. How mamny teams compete with low payrolls. Since only a high payroll can compete...
4 of the top ten payrolls made the playoffs, 3 of the BOTTOM 10 made the playoffs... Payroll rules all - ( New Window )
I don't even know what you are talking about with your previous post...you are all over the place. Obviously it's about talent...and most of the time you need to spend money to obtain that talent. They go hand in hand. I didn't think I would have to spell that out for you.
As for payrolls, I never said anything about the top 10 teams in payroll making the playoffs. In fact, I said earlier that we don't need to spend $150 mill to be good. Or did you just decide to ignore that line? I asked how many teams with a $95 mill payroll made the playoffs. Let me answer that for you. 3 out of 10.
Kansas City
Pittsburgh
Oakland
Those three teams just scream consistent contenders every year, right. Yeah, didn't think so.
2014 Playoff Teams:
Dodgers - $242 Mill
Angels - $172
Giants - $172
Detroit - $171
Wash - $141
St. L - $128
Balt - $111
KC - $96
Oak - $94
Pitts - $72
The top 6 teams above are consistently contenders. The bottom four...not so much. I like what you did up there, though, by adding the "top 10 payrolls" to support your argument. However, its irrelevant since I never said you need to be a top 10 payroll to be successful. Never. In fact, I made it a point to say that we DON'T need to be that high of a payroll.
lol. Whatever dude. You say "The Mets must MAKE MORE MOVES" before they will be competitive. Your stance has softened a TON if you are now only saying you hope we bring in a Drew, Taylor, or Miller as competition for him. Im fine with that too but how does that jump us into the competitive mark in your mind? lol.
Trading Murphy, sliding Flores over to 2nd(who you have no idea whether he will be any better defensively or not) and signing a Drew isn't doing jackshit for this team. It likely is a MAJOR downgrade.
My stance really hasn't changed. Go back a few pages, all i've been saying this whole time is that doing nothing would be shameful. That's all. This was my very first post in this thread:
Quote:
If they go into the season without adding anything else
Eric on Li : 12/3/2014 9:49 am : link : reply
it will be a big mistake. This is currently an 85 win team. Everything breaks right maybe they get closer to 90, but if anything goes wrong (Wright, Granderson, Cuddyer, Harvey) you're looking at another 80ish win season. Note that things haven't gone right for any of those 4 guys over the last 12 months (and plenty has gone right for the rest of the roster to limited results).
And, as PJ said, it's the Mets - when does everything break right? After all this time losing, If 90 wins is the goal, they need to have a roster that's not only capable of winning 90 but capable of winning 95-100 (in a best case scenario). That's what it is to be a true contender, and that's what this team would be if they could add just 1 more significant piece. You can't just expect them to develop the winning culture the Giants/Cardinals have overnight and waltz into the season/playoffs with an 88 win team and expect them to compete.
I'm not delusional and totally get that there aren't a lot of moves out there to be made. But is asking for an Andrew Miller & Didi Gregorius really all that insane? For the Yankees those moves are the appetizers to 150M+ at Scherzer and another 60M at Headley. It's farcical that the Wilpons have made an attempt to sign Andrew Miller a pure fantasy for Met fans.
Carig - "Mets and Rangers talking about Gee, but not shortstops"
Rob Brender - "TIFWIW but the Mets could get something done tonight"
Kristie Ackert - "still talking to teams tonight but nothing close"
After the way Colon came out of nowhere last year and Cuddyer this year I'm betting when something happens it will be something that might not have been seen coming.
the Mets and the Rangers are talking about a deal involving Dillon Gee.
Thought you'd outta know
Checked out Claudio's splits and they're pretty sick against lefties. If we could get him for Gee I would be all for it. 22 year old kid still on a rookie deal. Good stuff.
can leave Torres, Edgin, Black, Familia, and Mejia out of the bullpen so that's 5 right there. We are clearly looking for a second lefty so that's 6. Parnell makes 7. If Parnell isn't ready I'd have no problem going with Montero as a 6th man long relief role for a few weeks.
Then in AAA you have a glut of bullpen longman options like Verrett, Bowman, and Mazzoni that could all fill that role if an injury strikes. There will still likely be Dice-K/Lannan options inviting to spring training. I just don't see how Gee fits there.
Yup. Either way you gotta trade one. You really think Gee is a reliever of the future? To each their own but I don't like that idea at all.
I absolutely think he could fill the role Dice-K had last year.
Lannan sucks.
I meant those "type" of deals that always happen. We will bring in a few vets to compete in spring training just like we do every year. Some are nice depth some don't. Obviously I don't want actual Lannan. lol
Thats just a complete wild guess. Who do you bump from the bullpen? Torres? Gee is going to be better than one of our most reliable relievers over the last few years? Can Gee even pitch out of the bullpen with his injury history? Who knows?
I can't wait to get this season under way. I can't believe we still have 4.5 months to argue about whether Flores can play SS or not. This is going to be brutal! lol.
lol. Almost everyone you speak to think's Flores was fine at SS last year. Just about everyone thinks his upside is 15-20 homeruns, 70-80 RBI type player which would be insane coming from SS and the 8 hole. Almost anyone would have been thrilled with Castro or Peralta last year(both questionable defensive skills at least leading up to this previous season). You still hear people fawning over somebody like Baez(huge question mark defensively at SS). But everyone either wants to move him to the bench or to 2nd where we already have the NL hits leader(until he went down in September) and an even BIGGER prospect right behind him.
Sandy seems to be spewing comments that sound like they are coming from my own head. I pray he follows through. I am so sick of knowing the game is over when we fall down by 3 runs. Time to score some runs. With Flores AND Murphy in the lineup and this pitching staff this year we are going to beat a lot of teams.
Mayberry Jr its to a minor league deal. I think Puello can provide just as much as he can. The both still mash lefty but I think Puello still offers more upside as an overall player. Might make for a nice camp battle although Im sure Mayberry wouldn't come here for just that.
Mayberry Jr its to a minor league deal. I think Puello can provide just as much as he can. The both still mash lefty but I think Puello still offers more upside as an overall player. Might make for a nice camp battle although Im sure Mayberry wouldn't come here for just that.
He's getting guaranteed money.
Alderson has at least to a certain extent said the right
Things about defense up the middle this off season in that you need to actually score runs to win games. It's Collins who we can be assured will screw it up.
Mayberry Jr its to a minor league deal. I think Puello can provide just as much as he can. The both still mash lefty but I think Puello still offers more upside as an overall player. Might make for a nice camp battle although Im sure Mayberry wouldn't come here for just that.
He's getting guaranteed money.
Agreed but apparently the holdup in him being signed was that Sandy was trying to get him on a minor league deal or at least they are looking at players like him for minor league deals. For a player like Mayberry I don't want him on a major league deal. Ill be pretty bummed. Ludwick or Gomes? absolutely... but Mayberry? Ill be mildly bummed if we lose Puello for the likes of that...
RE: Alderson has at least to a certain extent said the right
Things about defense up the middle this off season in that you need to actually score runs to win games. It's Collins who we can be assured will screw it up.
Its honestly been weird. I wouldn't be surprised if Sandy and Collins go at each other this year. Two people in the same building on totally different pages going public with differing viewpoints? Sandy chuckling at Collins comments publicly? I could actually see this getting ugly.
Collins likely knows this is his last chance, and might be a little more defiant then usual. He has no reason to fall in line if he feels he'll be gone anyway.
made 1.5 last year, isn't old, 104 OPS+ (.913 OPS vs. lefties last year). There is no way he's taking a minor league deal. I know Sandy doesn't believe that.
Collins can go fuck himself. Either get on board with what the FO wants or go sit on your ass somewhere else and watch the team you did nothing but babysit for 4 years get good without you.
Collins can go fuck himself. Either get on board with what the FO wants or go sit on your ass somewhere else and watch the team you did nothing but babysit for 4 years get good without you.
And is brutal against righties. Anyways, il try to find the link that mentioned him on a minor league deal.
San Francisco now in on Gee too!
Brutal vs. righties doesn't get you stuck with a minor league deal in December. He's getting 1-2 million from someone, or one of those BS "if he makes the team he gets X guaranteed" wink wink "hes making the team but they don't want to use a 40 man spot yet deal" Quote me.
Eno-John Mayberry
Mayberry didnt make the cut for the list of attractive but affordable right-handed power options, ostensibly because his playing time projection is modest (199 plate appearances). But if you want your right-handed bat to play a little outfield defense without falling down, you may want to check out Mayberry. Certainly once Michael Morse, Tyler Moore, Corey Hart, and Andrew Brown are off the market. Maybe even before Brown is signed. Mayberry has shown above-average defensive work in the corner outfield, is projected for an average walk rate (8.1%) and above-average power (.188 ISO), and his career 22.7% strikeout rate is not terrible either. Given his health and youth (30) compared to some of the other right-handed power outfielders, you could make the case he was the second- or third-base option at that position.
Don't think he gets a minor league deal either. Was just mentioning what I read. I Just don't think he's all that much better than what Puello can provide for nothing.
Good article from Toby analyzing the Gregorius trade
I dont really know what the Diamondbacks think they are getting in Ray. The Mets could certainly have sent them an infield prospect and an upper level arm. Perhaps a comparable or even superior package would have been something like Jhoan Urena or Gavin Cecchini and Gabriel Ynoa that would have rivaled what the Diamondbacks received from the Tigers.
And ultimately I think his take on it is dead on.
Quote:
In the end though, the Mets did not make a play for Gregorious. Given his age, and lackluster offensive production in his first two big league seasons, thats understandable. Still, the team could use a shortstop, which has been true since Jose Reyes left. If the team is really serious about contending in 2015, the Mets will use organizational assets, including money, a prospect or two and a pitcher to fill in the hole on the left side of their infield this winter.
If we're going to make a trade, I'd still hold out a little hope for Miller. Other than that, I don't know. I wouldn't be terribly upset with Flores getting a chance but I'd like to see improvements elsewhere (i.e. bullpen, bench)
which the front office clearly has a much better idea of. I would prefer Didi to Flores starting at SS though. Either one would likely hit 8th and while it's impossible to say without watching him every day, but Didi supposedly has a great glove.
Some other notes from Twitter:
Jack Curry says Mets are confident Gee will get dealt this week.
Most are confident Verrett is getting taken in the rule 5 draft thinking he can be a back-end starter or 7th inning guy.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 4m4 minutes ago
#Twins have interest in Gee/Colon, but #Mets dont like SS Eduardo Escobar Min willing to move so matchup unlikely
not a big expert on Escobar but they would really turn down a SS who put up 2.3 WAR in 133 games last year for Dillon Gee? Seems pretty greedy to me. I hope this ends up a Marlon Byrd situation and not an Ike Davis turn down Britton situation.
not a big expert on Escobar but they would really turn down a SS who put up 2.3 WAR in 133 games last year for Dillon Gee? Seems pretty greedy to me. I hope this ends up a Marlon Byrd situation and not an Ike Davis turn down Britton situation.
Agreed - though Escobar does have a very Tejada-ish whiff to him. No power, needed a high BABIP to get close to 2 WAR, walks less and strikes out more.
Which players are really being discussed. It's these kind of little blurbs that fans come back to after the fact that's mostly conjecture and writers opinions. Unless the GM comes out and says he offered him for Gee straight up and we turned them down, I'll take it with a grain of salt.
Gee now. Murphy at the deadline or possibly just let him walk. Heck, we might even offer him arbitration depending on Herrera. Colon at the deadline to open a spot for Thor. Neise next offseason to open a spot for Matz. Granderson sonetime in 2016-2017 to make room for Nimmo/Conforto.
I've been a frequent reader since seeing Dan mention it here but the constant snark and negativity is so irritating.
I used to post there a lot. Then they had this huge crash and everything was reset and lost. I couldn't login and decided never to re-join. Dan's fine but it's basically the same 5-6 guys posting there. The site itself is very weak. MMO has gotten much better over the last year. Some pretty good discussions going on daily with thousands of comments. I like Amazin Avenue and Macks Mets too.
not a big expert on Escobar but they would really turn down a SS who put up 2.3 WAR in 133 games last year for Dillon Gee? Seems pretty greedy to me. I hope this ends up a Marlon Byrd situation and not an Ike Davis turn down Britton situation.
Agreed - though Escobar does have a very Tejada-ish whiff to him. No power, needed a high BABIP to get close to 2 WAR, walks less and strikes out more.
Like I said despite my obsession with baseball and the minors this guy has someone totally flown under my radar in every possible way. To be clear, he might be horrid just hope he's not a league average SS going forward that we end up passing on for a middle reliever. In general I despise Tejada types as it is. The idea the league has a bunch of zeroes playing SS that play solid D is simply a false one.
for me being "fine" thanks for that amazing title. Hate to tell you I'm closer to neutral than you are despite the "negative" label you have placed on me.
just to give you an idea of how the "glove only" stuff is BS. There were 2 MLB regulars at SS who were below average offensively and yet were league average in terms of WAR. Simmons (who is probably the best defensive SS of the past 15 years outside of maybe Vizquel, Everett was pretty great too) and JJ Hardy (beast defensive season by the metrics). That's it.
for me being "fine" thanks for that amazing title. Hate to tell you I'm closer to neutral than you are despite the "negative" label you have placed on me.
That wasn't meant as an insult. I meant you are fine in relation to the snarkiness and pretentious behavior that rubs people the wrong way. (IE you don't act like a lot of them)
For example, I know it's his thing, but has Nitey ever made a serious comment?
for me being "fine" thanks for that amazing title. Hate to tell you I'm closer to neutral than you are despite the "negative" label you have placed on me.
That wasn't meant as an insult. I meant you are fine in relation to the snarkiness and pretentious behavior that rubs people the wrong way. (IE you don't act like a lot of them)
For example, I know it's his thing, but has Nitey ever made a serious comment?
No his schtick is to ONLY like prospects and always want to tear it down. Always 1 sentence response.
Say the top 50 list you guys do(I know you head it up). Is one of the best around. Im in constant agreement with just about everyone year after year and think the time and thought put into it rivals anyone's.
for me being "fine" thanks for that amazing title. Hate to tell you I'm closer to neutral than you are despite the "negative" label you have placed on me.
That wasn't meant as an insult. I meant you are fine in relation to the snarkiness and pretentious behavior that rubs people the wrong way. (IE you don't act like a lot of them)
For example, I know it's his thing, but has Nitey ever made a serious comment?
No his schtick is to ONLY like prospects and always want to tear it down. Always 1 sentence response.
I know but how does that not get old after a while? Lol. All good.
think Gee is a poor fit for the Rockies but no offense to Gee (seems like a good dude), I care about the return more than what happens to Gee. Brothers could be an interesting grab as a LOOGY. Swing and miss stuff, Story would be a fun return. Big bust potential, questionable position but 14 homers 23 steals from a SS with 60 walks aint too shabby.
AAA (38)
Based on the above, the Mets probably protect the following 38 players in AAA: Brandon Allen, Martires Arias, Alberto Baldonado, Shane Bay, Chase Bradford, Kevin Canelon, Oswald Carabello, Xorge Carrillo, Alex Castellanos, Darrell Ceciliani, Luis Cessa, Victor Cruzado, Miller Diaz, Darwin Frias, Gilbert Gomez, Darin Gorski, Chase Hutchingson, Adam Kolarek, Jake Kuebler, Rainy Lara, Dustin Lawley, Seth Lugo, Vicente Lupo, Cam Maron, Luis Mateo, Johnny Monell, Daniel Muno, Luis Ortega, Greg Peavey, Tyler Pill, T.J. Rivera, Jean Rodriguez, Cody Satterwhite, Travis Taijeron, Domingo Tapia, Zack Thornton, Cory Vaughn, Logan Verrett
AA (37)
Adrian Abreu, Octavio Acosta, Gaby Almonte, Micheal Bernal, Leon Canelon, Jose Celas, Anthony Chavez, John Church, Albert Cordero, Maikis De La Cruz, Gabriel Feliz, Jose Figuera, Randy Fontanez, Ryan Fraser, Juan Carlos Gamboa, Audry German, Jeff Glenn, Julian Hilario, Manuel Hilario, Alvin Maracaro, John Mincone, Yoryi Nuez, Jairo Perez, Eudy Pina, Natanael Ramos, Luis Rengel, Alfredo Reyes, Periso Reyes, Ruben Reyes, Aderlin Rodriguez, Lenny Rosario, Yeixon Ruiz, Jon Velazquez, Carlos Valdez, Edioglis Villasmil, Jeff Walters, Beck Wheeler, Nelfi Zapata
Not protected
Josh Dunn (last season 2010), Jose Encarnacion, Carlos Gomez (2013) A.J. Pinera (2010), Eddie Rohan (2013)
Is the anti Tejada, so probably would be a huge fan favorite. If that's the WORST offer we get for Gee, not too bad. Especially when the expectation on the return for Gee was so low.
Would love to get the Marlins into talks for Niese. They are looking for a vet to lead the young kids, send a message they are trying to win, and cost control. They are looking to move youth.
If there's one thing Sandy does well it's getting good value in trades. Still not expecting a SS, but it would be great to really promising lefty arm for the bullpen or position player prospect.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 2m2 minutes ago
#Mets & #Twins spoke. Minnesota suggested SS Eduardo Escobar, but Mets not interested, per @MarlyRiveraESPN. Deal possible with other pieces
Red Brothers would be a good add (mentioned all over twitter)
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 2m2 minutes ago
#Mets & #Twins spoke. Minnesota suggested SS Eduardo Escobar, but Mets not interested, per @MarlyRiveraESPN. Deal possible with other pieces
The more I think about it, that must only mean Sandy has better offers on the table.
(EYJr) wound up being our offseason thread and has like 900 comments.
Are YOU calling MY thread inconsequential? Kidding aside, I'd like to thank you guys for this thread. It's been very entertaining and informative (and civil).
Gordon, Yelich, Stanton, Ozuna is a pretty nice offensive core. I doubt McGehee repeats but Saltalamachia could offset that, plus they're supposedly looking for a 1B upgrade.
Gordon, Yelich, Stanton, Ozuna is a pretty nice offensive core. I doubt McGehee repeats but Saltalamachia could offset that, plus they're supposedly looking for a 1B upgrade.
Marlins prospects not even close to Mets you listed. Marlins were determined to flip Haney all winter. They weren't leaving the meetings without moving him.
the Dodgers viewed Syndergaard in the same class as Heaney which is why they asked for him just for Gordon. The Marlins gave up two other nice prospects too.
Its all good. The Marlins got a little better but they aren't an 85-88 win team like we all seem to think the Mets are . Not yet.
Dumping Gee? We will almost definitely need a 6th starter before the super 2 cutoff and I suspect the front office would prefer to keep martz in Vegas the entire year if possible. Also, while it's a fairly poor use of assets doesn't gee have an option left? Candidly I have no problem keeping him there for inevitable Neise dl stint if the alternative is some crappy ss prospect who isn't going to be any better than Reynolds to tovar or cechinni.
All of those guys will probably be capable of taking rotation spots at some point in 2015. We just have too many pitchers. They can and should move Gee/Niese/Colon
RE: I don't know why the Mets would even want Gordon.
agree, but Gee has about 7 starters ahead of him. We've been through this. Gee is a good backend pitcher and teams are interested. He no longer has a spot on this team. I don't think you can stash him in AAA as he's been in the league 5 years now. Moving Gee to the bullpen carries all kinds of risk as well and he's likely the 7th or 8th best option there anyway as well.
Shouldn't the Angels ( or even Giants)just offer nickels on the dollar for Haren if he insists on retiring? Imagine the Dodgers paying 10 million on Haren only to have him flipped to the Giants? lol
Patrick Saunders @psaundersdp 42s42 seconds ago
#Rockies Jeff Bridich says club has talked specific players with #Mets for Dillon Gee, nothing imminent. Rex Brothers not discussed.
at the numbers on the players the Marlins gave up. You guys are nuts for saying the players I mentioned is WAY better than what the Marlins gave up. The Marlins gave up their number one prospect who was the 8th overall pick overall who is still a top 30 prospect according to BA. Their AA catcher OPSed .913 last year. Hernandez, who's 22, busted on the scene and already has had a better season then Gordon has. AND they got a flame throwing reliever who also turned in a great season last year. That's quite a haul.
they have bleeding hearts I don't see any reason they would. Everyone keeps questioning if he will actually walk away from 10 million so my guess is no they won't
Creative way for the Dodgers to save $3-$13mm, at no risk.
Dump Haren on the Marlins. If he doesn't retire (more likely would than not), Marlins get an OK vet they are looking for, at no cost. Dodgers still save $3mm.
Creative way for the Dodgers to save $3-$13mm, at no risk.
Dump Haren on the Marlins. If he doesn't retire (more likely would than not), Marlins get an OK vet they are looking for, at no cost. Dodgers still save $3mm.
Yeah but how can the Marlins claim they "tried to spend money"? It's either the Dodgers paying or nobody.
And creative front office.
My major, major gripe with Alderson has always been his lack of creativity. Perfect example. You know you are losing Verret plus tomorrow. So why not throw Verret into a package to close a deal?
Murphy and Gee for Haney. No? Ok, we will throw in Verret....
Can't find a team to unload Colons contract? Hey, we won't pick up $3-$4mm on his contract, but we will throw Verret in to offset that.
Or a simple swap. Verret for a comparable A baller. What team wouldn't swap an A baller for a near ready SP? Frees up a roster spot for the !ets, and they add a younger prospect instead of getting nothing.
Candidly I am too lazy to look it up but if he has two arb years left I would imagine he has only 4 and change.
Also montero is unproven, Thor shouldn't be called up until mid June and martz is probably better served in Vegas all year in my mind (or at least needs to be there until mid June).
Guy is the biggest prick and bullshit artist around. And the 14 Marlins fans aren't the swiftest. They conveniently leave out the Dodgers were paying his salary, or they would flat out say "that's not true". Sounds like fantasy, but if you never had the joy to listen to Sampson speak - google some of his best stuff... Slimy shit.
Candidly I am too lazy to look it up but if he has two arb years left I would imagine he has only 4 and change.
Also montero is unproven, Thor shouldn't be called up until mid June and martz is probably better served in Vegas all year in my mind (or at least needs to be there until mid June).
Gee is arbitration this year and again next year and then is a FA.
When I signed my contract, my main goal was to earn it, Meche said this week by phone from Lafayette, La. Once I started to realize I wasnt earning my money, I felt bad. I was making a crazy amount of money for not even pitching. Honestly, I didnt feel like I deserved it. I didnt want to have those feelings again.
I like Ryan McMahon but he's far away.
Tyler Anderson could be a Niese type
Carasiti isn't enough for Gee but he went to SJU which is usually notable
whats storys backstory?
Was a big SS prospect, changed up his swing which hurt his overall offensive game. Some think he's only a utility guy but 14 homers 23 steals with 60 walks. The Mets liked Wall but he technically can't be traded yet (nor do I think he's realistic)
When I signed my contract, my main goal was to earn it, Meche said this week by phone from Lafayette, La. Once I started to realize I wasnt earning my money, I felt bad. I was making a crazy amount of money for not even pitching. Honestly, I didnt feel like I deserved it. I didnt want to have those feelings again.
Have to respect that. And it's not like he didn't earn enough to live the rest of his life comfortably, but nonetheless not many people have those standards
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal 6m6 minutes ago
#RedSox have agreement in principle for #DBacks Miley, sources tell me and @jonmorosi. AZ will get Webster, De La Rosa and a minor leaguer
Apparently you can't make the money part of a trade contingent. So Dodgers pay the $10mm to the Marlins for Harens salary regardless if he retires. Interesting.
comparison was intersting. Both had Tommy John's early and have accelerated late and seem to just keep getting better and better. Both seem to be big game pitchers. Both athletic... cool.
...or a relative of the Wilpons.. haha. I'm not trying to be a jerk so don't take it that way, it's just that between all my friends who are Met fans and the guys here, none of them hold a candle to your positive outlook.
...or a relative of the Wilpons.. haha. I'm not trying to be a jerk so don't take it that way, it's just that between all my friends who are Met fans and the guys here, none of them hold a candle to your positive outlook.
That's fine. lol. This place can certainly be depressing sometimes. Ive sparked so many arguments just from my positivity alone Im sure. Ive pissed a whole lot of miserable people off. Haha. Oh well. You need opposite sides of the spectrum to spark good debates anyhow.
What did he say about Matt Bowman? I missed that part.
Just that he was his sleeper in 2015. Talked about his delivery and his numbers he's put up. Also named Dario Alvarez and Mazzoni as other sleepers but that they are more well known.
Have heard the name but can't say I know much about him
said usually you get the sense that teams are breaking for the night around now but that's NOT the case tonight with Gee. Actually said, STAY UP METS FANS. lol. And he think's something happens tonight.
RE: Have heard the name but can't say I know much about him
Is he a potential call up in 2015? And potential starter? Or reliever?
He'll be in the Vegas rotation to start the year. He certainly could make the show in 2015 as a starter or reliever but he's got a shitload of talent in front of him. Not going to be easy.
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal 7s8 seconds ago
Sources: #Rockies getting massive interest in OF Corey Dickerson, but would need to be overwhelmed to move him. Crickets on Tulo.
now Sandy reiterates they are trading a pitcher because they need to open a spot and there simply isn't enough room, and NOT because they need to clear salary. Was crystal clear.
I don't think you piss anyone off (well I won't speak for everyone). We all want the same thing here as Mets fans, some people are just less optimistic about how close the team is to achieving our goals.
I don't mind disagreeing with you, and often do, but you don't piss me off because you choose to take markedly positive slant on most Mets issues.
I think there's a difference between being some unbridled homer who thinks everyone is awesome(Tejada, EYJ, ect) and always expects a team to be in the playoffs AND me who definitely gets excited about some of our younger talent but has always been realistic about this rebuild. I absolutely said the team would win 77 last year and expected nothing. Im not a Collins fan and all sorts of Mets things piss me off.
Im happy where we are at now though and Ive been pretty much targeting this year for a while. I think we are a wild card team and Im going to enjoy this season. Hell, I enjoyed last year knowing we weren't going to the playoffs. The young talent on this team is something we haven't had in decades and its awesome. Its only going to get better too.
we are all passionate Mets fans and want the same thing. The payoff is going to be especially rewarding for all of us when we finally win another one. Something non-Mets fans will never understand. We've suffered... lol
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal 6m6 minutes ago
#RedSox have agreement in principle for #DBacks Miley, sources tell me and @jonmorosi. AZ will get Webster, De La Rosa and a minor leaguer
MLBN says Stewart denies it, no agreement yet on the minor leaguers. MLBN guys nevertheless say that "people we trust"are confirming the deal.
"upside" is a 5th starter. It might be a little higher than that even if that's what he ends up being. He has a deceptive delivery and has gotten results. Who knows how he might do as a reliever also?
we are all passionate Mets fans and want the same thing. The payoff is going to be especially rewarding for all of us when we finally win another one. Something non-Mets fans will never understand. We've suffered... lol
Yeah, man.. like I said.. it wasn't a slight at you at all. Even though I disagree with you now and then I don't mind it and it's good that we have some optimism and things to look forward to.
A few of us have stuck this whole thing out and never quit on the team or just said "meh, let me know when they're good again" which I know for a fact a LOT of Met fans did because the game threads and Met threads the last 4-5 years compared to 2006-2010ish have been FAR less active. There used to be a shit ton more posters on the game threads and the last few years it has basically been me, you, Dan, pj, HH, Phi, Schecky, Eric, etc.. like literally no more than 10 of us.
We're still not there yet but it seems there was a turning point mid-late last year where you finally got the sense that things were on the way back up and that the dark days were finally over.
The next few years should be fun. I am really excited about this coming season.
the Marlins traded all of that to get Dee Gordon. The guy isn't even good. Nice to see them empty out their system and not even get much (if at all) better.
we are all passionate Mets fans and want the same thing. The payoff is going to be especially rewarding for all of us when we finally win another one. Something non-Mets fans will never understand. We've suffered... lol
Yeah, man.. like I said.. it wasn't a slight at you at all. Even though I disagree with you now and then I don't mind it and it's good that we have some optimism and things to look forward to.
A few of us have stuck this whole thing out and never quit on the team or just said "meh, let me know when they're good again" which I know for a fact a LOT of Met fans did because the game threads and Met threads the last 4-5 years compared to 2006-2010ish have been FAR less active. There used to be a shit ton more posters on the game threads and the last few years it has basically been me, you, Dan, pj, HH, Phi, Schecky, Eric, etc.. like literally no more than 10 of us.
We're still not there yet but it seems there was a turning point mid-late last year where you finally got the sense that things were on the way back up and that the dark days were finally over.
The next few years should be fun. I am really excited about this coming season.
The posters will come out of the woodwork again when we are competitive. Which I have no problem with. I cant blame them for losing interest...there hasn't been much to get excited about. Us diehards are just a glutton for punishment, lol. Good times are coming, though. Just as soon as they open those purse strings, lol.
but i'd much rather have Kendrick and having the money to resign him won't be an issue. Obviously nobody knows what Haren's decision will be, but I saw someone say that the Dodgers kicked the cash for all of the salary going to MIA regardless of what he does (2.5 for Gordon, 10 for Haren). MIA might not have been as high on Heaney as the ranking sites, but feels a lot like LAD was able to basically buy this trade.
Kevin Burkhardt @kevinburkhardt 60m60 minutes ago
As for the Mets, didnt expect big things here. Their season hinges on Wright/Granderson producing.
Kevin Burkhardt @kevinburkhardt 59m59 minutes ago
But Ill say this- if they for a second year dont address SS by Spring Training, its embarrassing. Wilmer is a great kid, but not a SS.
So o e team has a hardon for some of our prospects. Who are not in our plans since we didn't protect them. And we can't think of any wAy or shape to turn that into an asset? Can't acquire a no. 40 man prospect in return? Can't acquire IFA money? Nothing?
So o e team has a hardon for some of our prospects. Who are not in our plans since we didn't protect them. And we can't think of any wAy or shape to turn that into an asset? Can't acquire a no. 40 man prospect in return? Can't acquire IFA money? Nothing?
Not looking to rile people up but the truth is the Mets are methodical and unoriginal to a fault. Waiver wire, minor deals, minor league trades.. it's becoming a farce in that regard. I also think they botched who they added. I would have risked Morris or even Ynoa over Verrett. Guess we shall see.
Even still. What are you realistically going to get for players you're not even going to protect?
Obviously teams don't know who we will protect in advance and maybe a guy like Verett is a guy who other teams wouldn't have assumed would be a Rule V guy but.. I just can't see there being much of a return there. The odds of getting anything of use for Rule V type prospects alone are probably very small.
Even still. What are you realistically going to get for players you're not even going to protect?
Obviously teams don't know who we will protect in advance and maybe a guy like Verett is a guy who other teams wouldn't have assumed would be a Rule V guy but.. I just can't see there being much of a return there. The odds of getting anything of use for Rule V type prospects alone are probably very small.
I'm not bitching about Verrett, upside is limited but he was expected to be added and wasn't so if they lose him and he ends up solid it's not as if it's a shocker to anyone. I had him being protected over Morris and Ynoa and still think that was the right move. Not a big deal. Then again they debated not adding Matz last year...
Yeah, the idea that they wouldn't add Matz was weird... I don't know why that would have ever been a consideration but in the end they did add him so thankfully it doesn't matter.
- Both Chicago teams improved enormously without dealing any premium prospects
- Yankees found a SS they like and only dealt a 4-5 starter
- Dodgers completely reconfigured their roster without trading any of their own big prospects
- Red Sox reacted pretty substantially after missing out on Lester
- Even the Padres are about to pass the Mets in payroll after making a solid move to add Kemp
I just don't know how anyone can make the argument the Mets are "serious about winning" if they continue to sit things out and hoard prospects to point that other teams actively talk about going after them in the rule 5 draft. Kevin Burkhardt is right, it is an embarrassment.
argue they've improved more than the Mets this offseason. Obviously Jose Fernandez is a huge piece of the puzzle there, but even assuming he misses more than half the season they're looking solid. Supposedly still looking for an upgrade at 1B also, which I can't imagine will be too difficult.
RE: If the Marlins also add Latos one could very easily
argue they've improved more than the Mets this offseason. Obviously Jose Fernandez is a huge piece of the puzzle there, but even assuming he misses more than half the season they're looking solid. Supposedly still looking for an upgrade at 1B also, which I can't imagine will be too difficult.
Like I said on the other thread
Alvarez, Latos, Eovaldi, Koehler, Cosart.. not sexy names outside of Latos but could be very, very solid until Fernandez returns.
They've done a pretty good job making it look like they're trying to win for Stanton in year one without committing any long term $ they'd have to dump next year.
(1) Dillon Gee appears a goner
(2) Wilmer may really end up SS
(3) Lefty relief may just be competition among guys on minor-league deals
(4) The Mets would like a righy bat like Mayberry, allowing them to use Cuddyer at 1B vs. LHP.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 59s59 seconds ago
LHP Sean Gilmartin is a former 1st-round pick out of Florida State. Went 9-7 with 3.71 ERA in 26 starts in AA/AAA last season.
The surprising part of the Ryan Doumit trade wasnt that the Atlanta Braves added another catcher. The surprising part was that they added another catcher a backup, no less at the expense of Sean Gilmartin, a left-handed pitcher who was their Round 1 draftee in June 2011.
Which tells us: The Braves had seen enough of Gilmartin to believe that he would never pitch significant innings for them. Otherwise they wouldnt have given up on a 23-year-old lefty to land a 32-year-old backup catcher.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 2m2 minutes ago
They don't have room. Otherwise, they would have protected more players. RT @DrewKerr: What is strategy behind passing on AAA phase?
"Gilmartin's fastball sits mostly 87-89 mph with a decent changeup, below-average breaking ball and good control He might be a fifth starter, although it's hard to see him even being average in the majors with fringy stuff and no out pitch."
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 21s22 seconds ago
Mets take no players in AA phase of Rule 5 draft. Draft now over. Mets lose Verrett (MLB phase), Peavey, Maron, Gamboa and Fontanez.
Jon Heyman retweeted
David Lennon @DPLennon 12m12 minutes ago
#Mets had asked about Cespedes but price was a Wheeler or deGrom. They liked the Cuddyer route instead.
Was a top 5 prospect a year ago. Verrett has never cracked a top 20. I agree Puello probably has very little chance to make the team now but in a vacuum Puello still offers a ton more upside then Verrett does.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 14s15 seconds ago
Sandy on pitcher trade: "Well see what develops over the next few days, couple of weeks. Its a long time between now and spring training.
Jon Heyman retweeted
David Lennon @DPLennon 12m12 minutes ago
#Mets had asked about Cespedes but price was a Wheeler or deGrom. They liked the Cuddyer route instead.
Was a top 5 prospect a year ago. Verrett has never cracked a top 20. I agree Puello probably has very little chance to make the team now but in a vacuum Puello still offers a ton more upside then Verrett does.
I agree, Puello is/was a legit 5-tool player, but he was losing AB's to Corey Vaughn who they tried to give away.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 1m1 minute ago
Full recap of Sandy Alderson's parting comments from San Diego: http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/96788/winter-meetings-wrap-up-gee-still-here #mets Link - ( New Window )
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 2m2 minutes ago
Before John Mayberry Jr.'s deal is announced, #Mets are going to have to drop player from the 40-man roster. It's full with Rule 5 selection
I honestly do not think Puello ever turns into an impact MLB player. He might make it up to the show but I doubt he really sticks anywhere. I wouldn't go that nuts if they dropped him.
how long do they have to make the 40-man roster move for Gilmartin?
They can wait because they haven't made Mayberry official but once they want to do that they wiull have to make the move. I think Goedell makes the most sense but we will see.
Then a guy like Ynoa who was already pitching in AA though. I'd hate to lose Ynoa, Morris, or Verrett but of the three obviously Verrett is the one I like the least. Sometimes you just gotta keep it simple. Some dumb team might take a Ynoa and stash him all year in their bullpen. I wouldn't take that chance
Then a guy like Ynoa who was already pitching in AA though. I'd hate to lose Ynoa, Morris, or Verrett but of the three obviously Verrett is the one I like the least. Sometimes you just gotta keep it simple. Some dumb team might take a Ynoa and stash him all year in their bullpen. I wouldn't take that chance
Ynoa and Morris have less than a 25% chance of lasting on a major league roster in 2015. Morris in particular walked 22 in 57 innings... in low A ball and it's not as if he throws 98.
But does anyone else think that trading pawlecki, Murphy and a lower level minor player for kemp would have been smarter than cuddyer and giving up the draft pick? You slip Flores to 2nd start Reynolds or Herrera or do something interesting like sign Cabrera for ss and you have a much more balanced roster for about the same price (assuming la kicks in 5per like they did). Not sure if la like murph or not but makes sense for them in my mind.
Not sure if the trade could have been there but The only impressive thing Sandy has shown so far is an ability to trade for prospects. He hasn't identified any decent major league talent (sans bryd which was dumb luck) and frankly I think his drafts have been pretty bad.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 1m1 minute ago
Very likely. Kirk and Mayberry should be backup outfielders. RT @KGWargo: den Dekker to AAA?
0 replies 1 retweet 1 favorite
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 3m3 minutes ago
Landed back in New York. Same flight as Terry Collins. Weather was better in San Diego. I vote for meetings there every year.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 4m4 minutes ago
A. ... good night. RT @Stoutman01: @AdamRubinESPN if you gave the Mets a letter grade so far this off season what would it be?
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 1h1 hour ago
For those who missed it overnight, New Britain friends sent video of Rule 5 pick Sean Gilmartin's 9-K game in April: Link - ( New Window )
Definitely a good gamble considering he doesn't cost anything.
Random question - is there still an embargo on Mets associated employees and WFAN? Sandy's interviews with Francesa were always really good and I actually found Sandy to be pretty forthright as well.
because they wouldn't let the SNY broadcasters on with him either, but I think they eventually caved on that part of it. I definitely heard Ron Darling on with him this week, but I'm assuming the employee embargo is still going strong? Also in fairness Francesa definitely implied there was blame on all sides (Yankees, WFAN, Mets) and that everyone involved was needlessly being petty.
I didn't know the Mets took their toys and went home.. how very Jets like.. sad.
Joe and Evan complain about this all the time.
It's amazing how terrible the Mets are at running a business that depends on fan support. These owners are too stupid to stay in control in any just world.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 39m39 minutes ago
#Mets officially announce signing of LHP Scott Rice to minor league deal. He's expected to be ready for season.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 39m39 minutes ago
#Mets officially announce signing of LHP Scott Rice to minor league deal. He's expected to be ready for season.
73 games but 51 total innings. If that's overworked he wasn't cut out for a long MLB career to begin with. He also was much better second half in 2013 so "overwork" seems like a BS excuse.
that year, so maybe he wasn't technically overused, but for his skill level he definitely was.
He pitched practically every other game after a 13 year minor league career.
that is the guy who is your first call to the bullpen?
PJ,
I'd argue that's 2 different issues. He was BETTER second half so if he was overworked it didn't show up in his performance. I don't "love" Terry Collins but realistically can you really say you or I would use a guy LESS if he's pitching BETTER when your job is on the line? I know I wouldn't. I wouldn't give 2 shits about how he looks in 2014 etc
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 43s43 seconds ago
jed lowrie popularity index high. 4 different all-star from 3 teams have reached out to lowrie to recruit him to their team
I know many are soured off his season last year, but he still posted almost 2 WAR according to FG, and they had it as one of his best defensive seasons. For a reasonable 2 year deal they could do a lot worse. I'd also be fine with Drew on a 1 year deal.
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 43s43 seconds ago
jed lowrie popularity index high. 4 different all-star from 3 teams have reached out to lowrie to recruit him to their team
I know many are soured off his season last year, but he still posted almost 2 WAR according to FG, and they had it as one of his best defensive seasons. For a reasonable 2 year deal they could do a lot worse. I'd also be fine with Drew on a 1 year deal.
Problem is right now he's looking for 3 years and he apparently said he's willing to play all over the field to do so. The Mets can't really offer him playing time anywhere else so it's tough to see them being the best fit. Astros reportedly offered 2 (and he's from the area) and he balked (which is why they are talking to Drew). I wouldn't mind Lowrie at the right price just don't see it being us.
Yeah me either, honestly I doubt Sandy would do 2 years
It will be really interesting to see what Drew gets this year. Boras' tactics last year were insane and often criticized (rightfully so because he definitely didn't help his client's performance) but where it had seemed like the Mets made a great decision last year it may turn out that they would have been better off caving to the 2nd year. I have a hard time believing Drew wouldn't have been an upgrade over Tejada/Wilmer if he'd have had a normal Spring, and here we are 1 year later in a position where it would be good to get him on a 1 year deal.
Drew for a few million bucks and cutting Tejada. He might even be able to platoon with Flores a bit and would offer excellent late inning defense. The problem is, Collins would play Drew every day and we would have a black hole in the lineup and Flores would be screwed again. Steamer has Flores as a 2.5 WAR player next year for free. He's still the best option available.
Drew for a few million bucks and cutting Tejada. He might even be able to platoon with Flores a bit and would offer excellent late inning defense. The problem is, Collins would play Drew every day and we would have a black hole in the lineup and Flores would be screwed again. Steamer has Flores as a 2.5 WAR player next year for free. He's still the best option available.
"Gotta get Stephen going" "he's done it before" "this guy was an impact player for a championship ballclub" "Wilmer will get his chances"
I feel like no matter who is behind (will anyone even be "behind"?)
And in all honesty, Ruben Tejada wasn't among the top 5 reasons why the team didn't win last year. I never want to see him start another game, like everyone else, but him being awful became a lightning bolt rally cry for fans simply because we all saw it coming and there was no counter-argument justifying his place in the lineup. Sandy himself was knocking Tejada for months leading up to the season. Flores surprising the majority of the baseball writers/observers and turning into an average to above average every day SS will be nice from an asset value standpoint, and certainly provides more room for fans to hope, but it's hard to see how taking that risk is acceptable given the lack of other improvements elsewhere.
Last year they were 22-28 on Memorial day. Granderson, Wright, and TdA had barely done anything. The BP was unsettled and LF was a mess.
In June the bullpen got fixed, Granderson had a good May/great June/ok July, TdA had a good July, Duda had great June/July, team overall had it's best offensive months May/June/July and they were 52-57 on August 1st. The high water mark of the season was 15-11, and after that the closest the team got to .500 was where they ended up (4 games under .500).
My point here isn't to be negative or say this team can't win next year. I believe the opposite actually, that they're very close and have somewhat underachieved - especially if their pitching is as special as it can be next year. But looking at the numbers realistically there's a razor thin margin for error. Not only do they need Wright and Granderson to bounce back, but also Cuddyer to stay healthy, while also needing the guys who played great last year to not regress. Harvey is a huge boost of enthusiasm that may be able to re-energize the entire roster, but it's hard to see how the upside on this team is anything past 85 wins as currently constructed.
I know this is a re-hash of old arguments and nothing that's particularly interesting or new, but in light of how active the winter meetings were in comparison to how inactive the Mets were, it's starting to feel a lot like 2014 again. Gee saga is this year's Ike Davis. Will Stephen Drew be this year's Jan 2014 Stephen Drew or Jan 2013 Michael Bourn? Flores/Tejada are still working hard to hopefully, maybe, magically turn into something. So many prospects we're seeing multiple guys plucked in the rule 5, but none that can be fairly traded for immediate help. Will this January be any different than all the others?
Drew for a few million bucks and cutting Tejada. He might even be able to platoon with Flores a bit and would offer excellent late inning defense. The problem is, Collins would play Drew every day and we would have a black hole in the lineup and Flores would be screwed again. Steamer has Flores as a 2.5 WAR player next year for free. He's still the best option available.
"Gotta get Stephen going" "he's done it before" "this guy was an impact player for a championship ballclub" "Wilmer will get his chances"
Is that the majority of the talent we worked so hard to accumulate has now either arrived and gotten over the hump(deGrom, Wheeler, TDA, Flores, MDD, Kirk, Mejia, familia, black, Edgin) or have reached AAA and are now ready to offer true depth to this team. We didn't have that last year, sorry. Almost every player I mentioned had strong second halves last year. We simply didn't have the luxury or calling up a Matz or a Syndergaard last year or a Montero who is now 100 percent ready in my mind. MDD, Plawecki, Reynolds, Herrera, and Nimmo later offer this team real options if disaster strikes. That's why I don't see the margin of error as small as Eric believes. If Flores fulfills his potential I see a VERY sold lineup and a top 5 pitching staff top to bottom. That should put us in the wild card mix. We clearly aren't better than the Nats just yet and that's ok. I'm excited to get this going.
This week in winter ball Flores has gone 7-21, with a homerun, 4 RBI's batting cleanup. He has now decided to add basestealing ability into his arsenal, swiping 3 bags this week. Ho hum....
And this might come off over the top again and it's not my intent, is that I'm pretty sure if we traded for Starlin Castro AND signed Cuddyer, the majority of people would be thrilled and think we did enough to get over the hump.
Steamer has Castro as a .270, 12 homerun, 60ish RBI player in Wrigley next year. Doesn't everyone believe Flores can put up those numbers? He already hit 6 in less then half a season last year. Steamer does... and they are historically ridiculously conservative, and are still saying Flores will hit 14 in less time.
Eric, not to bring up payroll again (because we've beaten that
horse to death), but this is usually where teams bring in a big time (or at least close to big time) player to get them over the hump. No, it's not Cuddyer. No, it's not Granderson. At this point, those two are veteran, role players that you "hope" to get something out of. But the Mets are in the exact position to sign a big player to make them contenders. As currently constructed, they are a fringe baseball team that may or may not make the playoffs each year. That's not the type of rebuild I'm looking for.
Unfortunately, this ownership and FO just won't get that big time player unless its for pennies on the dollar...which means never. I'd love to excited for this team but it's so hard to when they operate like they are on food stamps.
As you said, there is a very small margin for error. They can very easily be just as bad next year. A lot easier than they can be much better. This team has worn me out.
He already hit 6 in less then half a season last year. Steamer does...
Meh, that's not impressive.
Now, Tejada, he had twice as many ABs as Flores did and Tejada hit 5 HRs. Now that really gets the attention of the manager. What a stud that Ruben is.
it actually really bothers me that the Mets only seem to be focusing on shortstop. Why not try to upgrade another position so you can keep Flores in the lineup? What the fuck more does this kid have to do?
They have such tunnel vision when it comes to Flores and the SS position.
That adding 4-5 wins to our Pythagorean record(82 true record) by swapping negative WAR Dillon gee for Harvey, Chris Young for Cuddyer, German or our worst reliever for Parnell, along with all the second half improvements from countless players, and added depth in AAA, AND even somewhat improvemt from Wright is unreasonable.
He already hit 6 in less then half a season last year. Steamer does...
Meh, that's not impressive.
Now, Tejada, he had twice as many ABs as Flores did and Tejada hit 5 HRs. Now that really gets the attention of the manager. What a stud that Ruben is.
If I was completely honest I would have liked a better option then Cuddyer. Flores actually probably offers us as much as any option out there at SS. Clearly we could have traded for Kemp, Heyward, Cespedes, Upton, ect. But if Cuddyer stays healthy he has a chance to offer as much as any of them in the short term and I'm glad we have him vs us not doing anything
trading skills should be tested here again with Gee. Teams know they want to move him and the Reds just got a very nice return for a similar player in Simon and Miley is better but not significantly so and he brought back a good package. I'm not as confident as I would normally be given how many similar guys are available unlike Byrd/Beltran/Dickey being premium players.
Listen, there is no guarantee with any player or FA signing
That much I understand. It just makes me sad that our big signing is a 36 year old with a career stat line of .279/.347/.466/.813. I don't pay too much attention to his time in CO since his stats were obviously inflated.
But this is the time. Now is when the Mets should be going all out. They could do it and STILL have a low payroll for a NY team. I just feel like they are going to waste away prime years because...well, you know. It's a business model I just don't understand.
Like I said, they are a fringe team that may contend for a WC. And a lot has to go right for that to happen. Hopefully it does. Otherwise, they may have to bring in the fences again, lol.
Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reports Korean shortstop Jung-Ho Kang will be posted on Monday.
After Kang is posted, teams will be able to bid on the ability to negotiate exclusively with the 27-year-old. And at least a handful of teams are expected to show interest, as Kang batted .354 with 39 home runs and 115 RBI with the Nexen Heroes of the KBO this past season. The Mets and Giants are at least two teams expected to pursue the infielder.
Source: Ken Rosenthal on Twitter
Dec 13 - 5:22 PM
But what is the competition equivalent of the KBO? AAA?
I'm kind of torn on this. It would be nice to see the Mets be aggressive and get something like this done because I think if they sign this guy, there's no way Tejada keeps getting to play but I do kind of want to see Flores get a chance.
Upgrading in a bigger way elsewhere would have made it much easier to not be so worried (or unenthused) about going into the season for the 2nd straight year with an option they'd already publicly criticized. Or easier to trade Murphy and play Wilmer at 2B, since they not interested in signing Murphy long term anyway. This roster is begging for the addition of a 1 reliable, everyday, all star level player who could be part of a core and not just a stop gap.
Don't get me wrong, I like Cuddyer, but I also liked Moises Alou. At a certain point in guys' careers no matter how much you like them it's hard to fully count on them. Yanks are in the same boat with Beltran.
Ultimately I think it gets to Dan's point about a lack of creativity and an aversion to risk. Every decision is logical to a fault. Sometimes you need to take a bigger calculated risk. Tulo, Kemp, Andrus, Hanley, CarGo, even Andrew Miller or Robertson. There were guys available, in their primes, who have the ability to be true impact players. Why not add one before Wright and Granderson get any further from their respective primes?
This week in winter ball Flores has gone 7-21, with a homerun, 4 RBI's batting cleanup. He has now decided to add basestealing ability into his arsenal, swiping 3 bags this week. Ho hum....
His offense has never been an issue - it's the defense that concerns people
This week in winter ball Flores has gone 7-21, with a homerun, 4 RBI's batting cleanup. He has now decided to add basestealing ability into his arsenal, swiping 3 bags this week. Ho hum....
His offense has never been an issue - it's the defense that concerns people
I get your point but it still doesn't make any sense. They are obviously not going to pony up for a game changer, so they would rather have a defensive stud that doesnt hit very well? For an offensively starved team? Talk about ass backwards. Flores isnt that bad in the field.
But what is the competition equivalent of the KBO? AAA?
I'm kind of torn on this. It would be nice to see the Mets be aggressive and get something like this done because I think if they sign this guy, there's no way Tejada keeps getting to play but I do kind of want to see Flores get a chance.
I'd pass on this guy. The Mets won't "move on" for quite a while if he sucks. He screams Kaz Matsui to me. HR's were up something insane in Korea like 60% league wide aka juiced ball.
As for the ball changes, I suspect that actually has more to do with the offensive increase than foreign hitters. Byung-ho Park led the league in home runs in 2012, hitting 31, and 2013, hitting 37. Park continued to lead the league in home runs in 2014 with an astonishing 52. This trend is not limited to just Park. The aforementioned Jung-Ho Kang hit 25 home runs in 2012, 22 home runs in 2013, and then saw a massive spike in 2014, hitting 39 home runs. After years of hitting between twelve to eighteen home runs per year, Jeong-gwon Park set a career high mark in 2014, hitting 27 home runs. After hitting single digit home runs from 2011-2013, Taek-geun Lee hit a career best 21 home runs in 2014. While not every player began smashing their single-season home run records, many did top their previous mark with others matching or coming close. What does any of this have to do with Kwang-hyun Kim? This paints his 3.33 ERA and home run rate of 0.5 per nine innings pitched as something to be very impressed by. Allowing ten home runs and just sixty-two runs in 167.2 innings pitched during the leagues offensive peak really speaks for itself.
Perhaps the biggest compliment of Kwang-hyun Kims 2014 is his home run rate of 0.5 per nine innings pitched, third among starting pitchers. Why is this so impressive? 2014 has resulted in an offensive explosion, namely a massive increase in home runs, but overall an increase in offensive effectiveness. 2014 resulted in 1,151 home runs, a massive increase from 2013s total of 798 home runs. General run production was up, going from 2013s run total of 5,353 to 2014s run total of 6,419. There are two causes to attribute to this offensive explosion: raising the maximum number of foreign players from two to three, one of which must be a position player, and offensive-friendly ball changes. Seven non-Korean players hit ten or more home runs in 2014, but they are scattered about the home run list, rather than being clustered together at the top. This may make it appear like the influx of foreign hitters did not add to the games offensive productivity, but with no foreigners (Hee-Seop Choi was a MLB prospect, but is Korean) and rather low home run totals, both specifically and in general, it is hard to discount the effect foreign hitters have had in the increase in offense.
But what is the competition equivalent of the KBO? AAA?
I'm kind of torn on this. It would be nice to see the Mets be aggressive and get something like this done because I think if they sign this guy, there's no way Tejada keeps getting to play but I do kind of want to see Flores get a chance.
I'd pass on this guy. The Mets won't "move on" for quite a while if he sucks. He screams Kaz Matsui to me. HR's were up something insane in Korea like 60% league wide aka juiced ball.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Kazuo part 2. I would rather just go Flores if we can't pry Miller away from SEA.
it actually really bothers me that the Mets only seem to be focusing on shortstop. Why not try to upgrade another position so you can keep Flores in the lineup? What the fuck more does this kid have to do?
They have such tunnel vision when it comes to Flores and the SS position.
What position do you want them to improve besides 2b? Not to hate on Flores but its not like he set the world on fire in his opportunities last year. He's better than Tejeda but we should still be looking for better
Agreed across the board. I want Miller if he can be had for a Montero + package otherwise I'd go with Flores. Kang really scares me both being a bust and how long they would take to move on. If he cost say 10 million (random number) to bid and 10 per to sign you know he'd be the starting SS for at least 1.5 seasons we all know this.
This week in winter ball Flores has gone 7-21, with a homerun, 4 RBI's batting cleanup. He has now decided to add basestealing ability into his arsenal, swiping 3 bags this week. Ho hum....
His offense has never been an issue - it's the defense that concerns people
I get your point but it still doesn't make any sense. They are obviously not going to pony up for a game changer, so they would rather have a defensive stud that doesnt hit very well? For an offensively starved team? Talk about ass backwards. Flores isnt that bad in the field.
sandy has said offense is more important to there search for ss upgrade with the young strike out staff we have
While his power numbers are impressive, they need to be looked at in their proper context. The shortstop did not have an MVP-caliber season against the combined pitching staffs of the NL and AL All-Star Teams, or in stadiums near the bottom of the park effect rankings in terms of runs, hits, and home runs allowed. While his batting line is impressive, he compiled it against KBO pitchers, generally regarded as less talented than their Japanese and MLB counterparts. In fact, in 2014, the KBO is experiencing an offensive explosion like never before. The league has experienced a roughly 40% increase in runs scored compared to the 2012 season and a roughly 80% increase in home runs, according to study author and former MLB and KBO pitcher Ryan Sadowski. This seems largely due to a change in the game-official KBO baseball.
This is not to say that Kang's numbers are hollow and have no meaning, but that the increase in his power numbers do not necessarily reflect improvement as a player. In 2012, according to the above-mentioned research, Kang was directly responsible for 21% of the runs scored by Nexen; in 2014, he was directly responsible for only 17%, despite the across-the-board increase in his numbers.
In addition, the Nexen Heroes play their home games at Mokdong Stadium, one of the smaller parks in Korea. Both right and left field are 322 feet from home plate, and the deepest part of the park, dead center, is only 387 feet away. Among the primary parks that KBO teams use, only Masan Baseball Stadium, home of the recently formed NC Dinos, is smaller (318 feet down the lines and 381 feet to dead center). By comparison, Citizens Bank is 330 feet down the lines and 409 feet at its deepest part; Yankee Stadium is 318 feet in left and 408 feet at its deepest part. Many of the home runs that Kang and many other Korean hitters hit in Korea would otherwise be fly balls in most stadiums in the U.S. It is important to note, however, that many of Kang's home runs could be considered "towering," and are still traveling when they pass out of the field of play. I can't say for sure whether or not, on average, these towering shots have enough on them to pass for MLB home runs, but it wouldn't be accurate to call all of Kang's home runs a product of smaller park dimensions. Link - ( New Window )
Agreed across the board. I want Miller if he can be had for a Montero + package otherwise I'd go with Flores. Kang really scares me both being a bust and how long they would take to move on. If he cost say 10 million (random number) to bid and 10 per to sign you know he'd be the starting SS for at least 1.5 seasons we all know this.
I'm ok with this too.
One very unusual thing about Flores are his lefty-righty splits.
Over his mlb career, vs right-handed pitchers, his numbers are -
.274 .297 .414 .711 and vs left-handed pitchers, his numbers are -
.143 .218 .187 .405. His numbers each year follow this same pattern.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 1m1 minute ago Manhattan, NY
Column http://nyp.st/1qKTbTk it is substantial risk, but a case for #Mets making offer #Rockies can't refuse on Tulowitzki Link - ( New Window )
Agreed. I do wonder if they start considering it if COL is willing to kick in some money like the Dodgers did with Kemp. Or maybe Gee/Murphy can be part of the trade to offset some prospect value and money? That's 3-5 WAR for half the price of Tulo, plus Thor any other prospects.
Agreed. I do wonder if they start considering it if COL is willing to kick in some money like the Dodgers did with Kemp. Or maybe Gee/Murphy can be part of the trade to offset some prospect value and money? That's 3-5 WAR for half the price of Tulo, plus Thor any other prospects.
if salary is a concern move murphy to sf, who seems interested in him for prospects. Moving gee and Murphy clears 13 mil off current payroll
Is that you just know if we made that move, Tulo would come here and have all sorts of problems with his hip and the whole thing would blow up right in our faces.
Is that you just know if we made that move, Tulo would come here and have all sorts of problems with his hip and the whole thing would blow up right in our faces.
yep and I think he is on sandy's radar as he is a clear upgrade over flores unlike the rest of available ss
If I was in the Mets position that's exactly what I'd look to do
Gee & Thor main pieces. Reynolds or Cecchini to give them a possible future SS. Adding in Nimmo or Comforto would hurt but if it's got to happen so be it. Would probably prefer dealing Montero, though that'd be a pretty big overall hit to the pitching depth. Move Murphy to save some money and hopefully recoup a Nimmo/Montero level propsect.
Tell me that lineup doesn't make up the extra payroll increase in ticket sales within 24 hours. Not to mention a gold glove left side of the infield and an upgrade at 2B.
If something like Thor, Nimmo, Herrera, Gee + a lower level prospect was enough to get it done, I'd do it.
I still don't think that's enough though.
I disagree, I think Colorado is willing and likes what the Mets have to offer. Here's an interview Rob Brender did with one of their beat writers at the beginning of the winter meetings, it really sounds like even other teams know the main barrier to dealing with the Mets is payroll. Rockies beat guy - ( New Window )
With reports that Korean shortstop Jung-Ho Kang will be posted for bidding by major league teams on Monday, the Mets are still undecided about whether they will enter the process, Sandy Alderson said Saturday night.
the tight-fisted Mets spending $30-40 million on Kang. Reports estimate his posting fee will land around $10 million and he apparently is looking for 3 years at $8 million per.
if you want to be thoroughly terrified about the possibility of
signing Kang, all you need to do is read DMM's 8:02pm post last night. Whoever signs Kang will be paying for results that he will never come close to again. Im really hoping this isnt the signing that Sandy goes for.
While his power numbers are impressive, they need to be looked at in their proper context. The shortstop did not have an MVP-caliber season against the combined pitching staffs of the NL and AL All-Star Teams, or in stadiums near the bottom of the park effect rankings in terms of runs, hits, and home runs allowed. While his batting line is impressive, he compiled it against KBO pitchers, generally regarded as less talented than their Japanese and MLB counterparts. In fact, in 2014, the KBO is experiencing an offensive explosion like never before. The league has experienced a roughly 40% increase in runs scored compared to the 2012 season and a roughly 80% increase in home runs, according to study author and former MLB and KBO pitcher Ryan Sadowski. This seems largely due to a change in the game-official KBO baseball.
This is not to say that Kang's numbers are hollow and have no meaning, but that the increase in his power numbers do not necessarily reflect improvement as a player. In 2012, according to the above-mentioned research, Kang was directly responsible for 21% of the runs scored by Nexen; in 2014, he was directly responsible for only 17%, despite the across-the-board increase in his numbers.
In addition, the Nexen Heroes play their home games at Mokdong Stadium, one of the smaller parks in Korea. Both right and left field are 322 feet from home plate, and the deepest part of the park, dead center, is only 387 feet away. Among the primary parks that KBO teams use, only Masan Baseball Stadium, home of the recently formed NC Dinos, is smaller (318 feet down the lines and 381 feet to dead center). By comparison, Citizens Bank is 330 feet down the lines and 409 feet at its deepest part; Yankee Stadium is 318 feet in left and 408 feet at its deepest part. Many of the home runs that Kang and many other Korean hitters hit in Korea would otherwise be fly balls in most stadiums in the U.S. It is important to note, however, that many of Kang's home runs could be considered "towering," and are still traveling when they pass out of the field of play. I can't say for sure whether or not, on average, these towering shots have enough on them to pass for MLB home runs, but it wouldn't be accurate to call all of Kang's home runs a product of smaller park dimensions. Link - ( New Window )
HH I suggest you read this article before claiming people are trying to be "experts" on here. There are very real reasons to have concerns especially given the Mets payroll.
I read upon the top prospects in the draft to get an idea, I never see these guys pitch or hit, I go on what I read. You have a guy who might as well played on the moon, never heard of him or read about him. If he stinks, stay away, I don't have any opinion
In 2014 26 players hit .315 or better, 21 hit .320 or better and 12 hit .339 or better. 6 players posted OPS's of 1.000 or greater, 24 topped .900. Former MLB role player Eric Thames posted a 1.111 OPS (3rd in the league)
0 full-time starters posted ERA's below 3 (best ERA for any starter was failed MLBer Rick Vandenhurk). 6 SP's posted era's under 4, 3 of which were ex-big leaguers.
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 20m20 minutes ago
korean ss jung-ho kang being posted today. led korea with 1.198 ops in 2014. mets, giants, others interested.
ex player who faced Kang says he thinks he can hit for power at the MLB level but thick lower half, lack of foot speed and technique issues leads him to believe better at 3b or a CO spot.
but these clips of his defense look decent. Weak arm but quick and pretty acrobatic. Kang defensive plays - ( New Window )
His arm is supposed to be his one calling card defensively. Looks chunky to me for a SS and the leg kick is absolutely terrifying. Can't think of many MLB players who succeed with a kick like that.
He has very good bat speed and the potential for power, but I worry hell struggle to catch up to big-league fastballs, an international scout told me Tuesday, comparing Kang to free-agent SS Asdrubal Cabrera. Hes an adequate fielder with decent reactions and a below-average arm who is probably best suited for right field or second base.
said his arm is the ONLY reason he has a shot at SS lol
"However, ESPNs Keith Law recently ranked Kang 15th among free agents (Insider subscription required and recommended), believing that some of his power can translate to the Majors, likely at the cost of his batting average. He noted that Kang lacks the range teams would like to see out of a shortstop but has a 60 arm (on the 20-80 scouting scale) to make up for some of the range. Law noted that hed give Kang every chance he could to stick at shortstop while acknowledging that he, too, has heard scouts who see Kang as more of an unathletic corner guy whose power wont play in the Majors."
again Cerrone has an "exclusive" story about how the Sox are more likely to trade Marrero then top 5 prospect in the game Bogaerts so maybe he should be trusted.
Most surprising to me is how Goeddel both receives zero buzz, zero mention (like say Mazzoni) making the club yet has survived this long. I'm not judging the player just his circumstance.
is JAG. I thought Tovar made the most sense, but I guess they're waiting to see how SS shakes out.
If Tejada and Flores and Herrera are all on the 24-man roster Tovar has zero role.
They sort of "have to" keep Tovar for now. If an injury were to occur to one of Tejada/Flores then the next guy would be Reynolds and he doesn't need to be added yet. Right now Tovar is the "Quintanilla".
Gee said he wants to stay a Met, but added: "I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a little exciting to know that there are other teams that are asking about me. That's kind of the thing if you do get traded. Yeah, it's a little bittersweet because you're leaving the team and your friends, and really the Mets have been like a family to me. But the other, flip side is, hey, somebody wants you. Not to say the Mets don't. I have no hard feelings either way. Like I said, I understand what it is."
This weird unknown dark horse for me. Injuries the last two years have set him back and he's fallin behind Flores, Reynolds, and probably soon Cechinni. It's kind of his last chance this year but if he stays healthy, plays good defense, and hits a little he could get himself back in the mix. I just don't know where he is going to play. Got to figure Reynolds and Herrera are starting in AAA. Cechinni might be in AA soon.
Talent wise that lineup still isn't much better than the Mets, but I'd choose it pretty easily because it's much better balanced, their key players are younger, and they have a legit MVP candidate who will carry them for stretches by himself. Defensively better everywhere except CF/3B. I don't know much about their farm other than that they gave up some highly ranked guys, but they've definitely made some interesting improvements.
rotation could be quite good even before Fernandez returns. They have some really underrated arms in Eovaldi, Koehler and Alvarez + Cosart and Latos and a great bullpen. I still think the Nats are the team to beat but don't be shocked if the Marlins surprise.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 1m1 minute ago
As of yesterday, they were considering. Interest sounds lukewarm. Price is Right strategy? RT @jamesesavengers: Are mets bidding for kang
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 3m3 minutes ago
For instance, Yamaico Navarro had 31 HRs for Samsung in Korea last season. Who? Exactly. He hit 12 homers in 390 ABs with AAA Norfok in '13.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 9m9 minutes ago
Someone from Mets told me week ago you have to discount South Korean home run totals more than Pacific Coast League totals. That inflated.
seems like just another risk on a team full of risks. Every time I look at it this lineup feels more like 02.
Also doesn't have to be accepted until Friday and 30 days to negotiate so you could have 30-40 million (and the SS position) tied up for that long. Not that I expect the Mets to use it in other areas but another thing to remember.
All part of the plan to sell the team in a few years. Everyone but Marlins "fans" fall for it.
Jet have to be good enough and fun enough to be watchable. Will try to negotiate a TV deal. If it goes south, very easy team to blow up. But if it works Loria walks away with hundreds of millions of $ extra. All Samson plan.
The Mets asked the Red Sox about OF Yoenis Cespedes toward the end of last season, but they were told it would take Zack Wheeler or Jacob deGrom to get a deal done, according to a source (Lennon, Dec. 11).
The Red Sox eventually traded Cespedes and two prospects to the Tigers for RHP Rick Porcello, who like Cespedes can be a free agent after next season.
Porcello is a guy we had targeted earlier in the offseason, Sox GM Ben Cherington said after the deal was announced. Weve had a pretty strong combination of scouting and analytics work on him.
All part of the plan to sell the team in a few years. Everyone but Marlins "fans" fall for it.
Jet have to be good enough and fun enough to be watchable. Will try to negotiate a TV deal. If it goes south, very easy team to blow up. But if it works Loria walks away with hundreds of millions of $ extra. All Samson plan.
Totally agree. I think the $ the Dodgers kicked in was almost as big of a part of the Heaney trade as Gordon. I believe they paid the full salaries of all involved, even if Haren did retire. That move plus the Morse move were essentially free, and gave the perception that they are serious, for what was apparently a prospect with a lesser reputation among professional scouts than amateur. Win-win-win.
Looks like they won't be bringing in a guy like Cotts. I doubt Breslaw (despite his bad season) needs to accept a minor league deal so who knows? I guess they are hoping Eveland accepts a minor league deal.
Will be a pesky team but they don't look better than the Mets currently. With Fernandez out to mid-late summer their rotation is not of our caliber.
I think their lineup has a few young core players to build around and of course Stanton is awesome but half the lineup is filled of retreads. I know health is a major issue with our lineup but on paper we look much stronger.
"We've been looking at it. We've been talking to Alan Nero, who has represented Kang," Alderson said Tuesday, at a Mets holiday party for schoolchildren at Citi Field. "It's about the transition from the Korean league to Major League Baseball. It's about questions surrounding the player's ability to stay shortstop -- or possibly having to move elsewhere. Those are really the two major issues for us. I'm not saying we won't make a bid, but I'd say right now it's less likely."
Alderson said the Mets were not in on free-agent shortstop Jed Lowrie, who just signed with the Houston Astros. Still, Alderson portrayed the probability of Flores playing shortstop as strong.
"I don't think the Lowrie signing increases the probability, because we weren't really in on Lowrie," Alderson said. "To that extent the probability [of Flores as the Opening Day shortstop] remains about the same, but I think it's very high."
"We've been looking at it. We've been talking to Alan Nero, who has represented Kang," Alderson said Tuesday, at a Mets holiday party for schoolchildren at Citi Field. "It's about the transition from the Korean league to Major League Baseball. It's about questions surrounding the player's ability to stay shortstop -- or possibly having to move elsewhere. Those are really the two major issues for us. I'm not saying we won't make a bid, but I'd say right now it's less likely."
Alderson said the Mets were not in on free-agent shortstop Jed Lowrie, who just signed with the Houston Astros. Still, Alderson portrayed the probability of Flores playing shortstop as strong.
"I don't think the Lowrie signing increases the probability, because we weren't really in on Lowrie," Alderson said. "To that extent the probability [of Flores as the Opening Day shortstop] remains about the same, but I think it's very high."
Will be a pesky team but they don't look better than the Mets currently. With Fernandez out to mid-late summer their rotation is not of our caliber.
I think their lineup has a few young core players to build around and of course Stanton is awesome but half the lineup is filled of retreads. I know health is a major issue with our lineup but on paper we look much stronger.
2014 Marlins scored more runs than the Mets so why would "on paper" the Mets lineup look better? The Marlins added Morse and Gordon and the Mets added Cuddyer. If you want to point to guys like TDA the Marlins can point to Ozuna and Yelich. Two teams look very even to me on paper.
Slated to start in the Marlins rotation until Fernandez gets back?
Nope.
Eovaldi
Latos
Hernandez
Koehler
Cosart
All good young-youngish SP's and their pen is fantastic. cishek is crazy underrated.
Good "youngish" pitchers doesn't equate to Harvey, deGrom, Wheeler in my mind. That's cool if you like them more but in my opinion the mets look stronger and deeper until they get Fernandez back. As for the lineup, we've been through this, but I'm expecting additions of Wright, Cuddyer, and Flores replacing black holes so I see more offense added then just Cuddyer. Time will tell
Wow just seeing this now. Motte got "paid" all things considered. I doubt the Mets were even close to that number (I wouldn't be surprised if they offered a minor league deal).
why wouldn't Morse/Gordon represent replacing "black holes" for the Marlins? Their starting 2b was Donovan Solano and at 1b started Jones every day despite the fact he had a .539 OPS vs. lefties. Morse had an .827 OPS vs lefties this year and .821 career. You don't see how this picking and choosing comes off as "homerish"?
I think the Marlins will be slightly better than the Mets this year. They've made some solid moves.
We barely did anything. We're banking on Harvey being Harvey and everyone getting better. Risky strategy. I get that there weren't a ton of moves to be made, but.. it is what it is.
I think the Marlins will be slightly better than the Mets this year. They've made some solid moves.
We barely did anything. We're banking on Harvey being Harvey and everyone getting better. Risky strategy. I get that there weren't a ton of moves to be made, but.. it is what it is.
Don't know how it's possible to argue with this. Mets v. Marlins is a toss up to me, but all things mostly equal I'd take the team that has an impact player like Stanton. Could see it going either way though.
Mets add- Cuddyer, returning Matt Harvey, John Mayberry Jr.
Marlins add- Mat Latos, Dee Gordon, Mike Morse, MAYBE Dan Haren, Jose Fernandez at Mid-season or so
Marlins won 2 less games than the Mets. I don't think it's a stretch to say they are pretty equal teams with the Marlins possibly being a little bit better overall.
Special at all especially for a 1stbaseman. Not a huge Gordon fan either. Our core of Murphy, Wright, Duda, Cuddyer, Granderson is a little more established and we have young talent on the rise as well. There's nothing homerish about it. Most people are picking The Mets and Marlins to finish with mid-80 something wins. I just feel we are the better team until they get Fernandez back at this time. I can certainly acknowledge the Marlins are on the rise and I don't think that's outlandish.
Are completely off the wall. There isn't a single Mets fan alive that would look at deGrom's Steamer prediction and not completely laugh their ass off. Makes zero sense.
Special at all especially for a 1stbaseman. Not a huge Gordon fan either. Our core of Murphy, Wright, Duda, Cuddyer, Granderson is a little more established and we have young talent on the rise as well. There's nothing homerish about it. Most people are picking The Mets and Marlins to finish with mid-80 something wins. I just feel we are the better team until they get Fernandez back at this time. I can certainly acknowledge the Marlins are on the rise and I don't think that's outlandish.
Morse and Duda both are average at best defensively right?
Morse career .821 OPS vs. lefties, Jones career .811 vs. righties
Duda 2014 OPS (.830)
And "anything special"... Michael Cuddyer most certainly is NOT a special player in a CO spot. Morse and Cuddyer are basically a push. If the Mets signed Morse over Cuddyer I would have felt exactly as I feel now.
Special at all especially for a 1stbaseman. Not a huge Gordon fan either. Our core of Murphy, Wright, Duda, Cuddyer, Granderson is a little more established and we have young talent on the rise as well. There's nothing homerish about it. Most people are picking The Mets and Marlins to finish with mid-80 something wins. I just feel we are the better team until they get Fernandez back at this time. I can certainly acknowledge the Marlins are on the rise and I don't think that's outlandish.
Ozuna and Yelich are considered 2 of the best/most talented young players in baseball. To act like the Mets have young talent on the rise but the Marlins don't is ridiculous I'm sorry.
Mets add- Cuddyer, returning Matt Harvey, John Mayberry Jr.
Marlins add- Mat Latos, Dee Gordon, Mike Morse, MAYBE Dan Haren, Jose Fernandez at Mid-season or so
Marlins won 2 less games than the Mets. I don't think it's a stretch to say they are pretty equal teams with the Marlins possibly being a little bit better overall.
I have no idea who will be better, but to throw two more things on this:
(1) decent chance David Wright returns to form as a 5-7 fWAR player
(2) Marlins may have finished just two games behind the Mets, but the Nets were +11 in run differential and the Martins were -29. Mets were really unlucky -- Cards had a diff of +16 and won 90.
Well, Wainwright was actually better post-TJ. It's a mixed bag, though. Some guys are never the same. Some return to what they were before it. There's no real way of knowing until we see for ourselves.
Special at all especially for a 1stbaseman. Not a huge Gordon fan either. Our core of Murphy, Wright, Duda, Cuddyer, Granderson is a little more established and we have young talent on the rise as well. There's nothing homerish about it. Most people are picking The Mets and Marlins to finish with mid-80 something wins. I just feel we are the better team until they get Fernandez back at this time. I can certainly acknowledge the Marlins are on the rise and I don't think that's outlandish.
Ozuna and Yelich are considered 2 of the best/most talented young players in baseball. To act like the Mets have young talent on the rise but the Marlins don't is ridiculous I'm sorry.
And doesn't have anywhere near the power Duda has. And looking at your breakdown of the rotation it's clear we still have them beat even with the ridiculous Steamer predictions for Harvey, deGrom, and Wheeler
And doesn't have anywhere near the power Duda has. And looking at your breakdown of the rotation it's clear we still have them beat even with the ridiculous Steamer predictions for Harvey, deGrom, and Wheeler
Duda was a negative value 1b in 2014 in terms of defense (-10.1) 12/18 qualified. I think people turned "better than expected" into "good"
I see the Marlins as a 82-83ish win team right now. Just my opinion.
And the Mets are what? Are you really putting up an argument over some of us seeing the Marlins being 1-2 games better than the Mets on paper? lol
What argument? Your the only one arguing. Lol. I just said I don't see them better than the Mets on paper right now until they get Fernabdez back. I even acknowledged most people see us both in the mid-80 range. I just think the Mets are the better team currently.
The difference between Duda and Morse? Lol. Stop. No way in all of holy hell you take Morse over Duda if all things were equal.
I'd take Lucas Duda over Morse. But Cuddyer vs. Morse given the team needs of each sure looks like a push to me. Morse is absolutely awful in the OF so I would take Cuddyer for the Mets but if hypothetically both were added to play 1b I'd probably take Morse to be honest.
Didn't have a need at 1st and like you said Cuddyer was the better option for RF. It's all good. None of us are far off in our projections and I've said that often.
Well, Wainwright was actually better post-TJ. It's a mixed bag, though. Some guys are never the same. Some return to what they were before it. There's no real way of knowing until we see for ourselves.
I think everyone gets nervous before a player gets back and Im sure we are all getting a little apprehensive, but I think it helps to point out guys like deGrom, Matz, Mejia, ect. on our very own roster pitching great post-TJ.
it actually got me thinking and I was genuinely curious.
Steamer:
Dee Gordon 1.2
Christian Yelich 3.3
Stanton 5.9
Michael Morse 0.5
Casey McGahee 1.0
Marcel Ozuna 3.1
Salty 1.2
Hechavarria 0.4
Total is 16.24.
I absolutely despise some of the predictions for certain players like Duda, Murphy, and Lagares. All should easily surpass their predictions and of course Wright could too. Even with their ridiculously conservative estimates we are still a win ahead of the Marlins currently at 17.3. Our rotation is better as well.
The Mets are considering a plan in which Harvey is held back at the start of the season, perhaps until the home opener at Citi Field on April 13. Also, expect Harvey to be shut down for a few weeks in the summer as well to limit his innings, following his return from Tommy John surgery. [...]
Collins already is planning ahead and, depending how everything goes in spring training, the Mets could go with this lineup:
Lagares, Granderson, Wright, Duda, Cuddyer, Murphy, dArnaud, Wilmer Flores and then the pitcher.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 2m2 minutes ago
Don't see why not, although Sandy said general trade hiatus until January MT @NickStephens94: Does Gee to Rockies trade still have traction?
I like Granderson hitting at the top of the lineup more than the middle. I know last year's numbers don't support this, but it seemed when he hit leadoff or second his approach was much more about getting OB - which he's always been good at. Hitting in front of Wright should help him see better pitches.
Thor- Profiles as a #2 starter with 2 plus pitches
Matz- As high as a #2, same 2 plus pitches 1 average
Nimmo- "quality regular"
Herrera-Mets love Herrera's makeup, average at best at 2b, weak arm
Plawecki- feel to hit and get on base, defensive upside is average to a bit below (they really make him sound like LoDuca the Mets version)
Rosario- allstar upside
Conforto- Power ceiling questioned by some scouts
Montero 4-5 starter or pen because of Mets depth
Molina potential #3 if all goes well, has touched 96
Cecchini anywhere from regular at SS or 2b to utility player, plus arm, average range
NEW YORK -- The Mets and Rockies have engaged in some talks this offseason regarding Troy Tulowitzki, but a well-placed source told ESPNNewYork.com the chances of something ever materializing are 5 percent at best.
The Mets and Rockies have been quietly discussing a potential Troy Tulowitzki blockbuster for weeks, though it isn't known yet whether New York will have a decent chance to complete such a deal.
A source told the News that the odds of a trade happening are extremely remote, given injury concerns about Tulowitzki and the demands of the Rockies, who are believed to want prized pitching prospect Noah Syndergaard included as part of the deal.
exactly. dude fucking sucked.
Like Collins said, you need that bat in the lineup.
nor does he excel with the bat and he can't really play any other position except 2b a little and not extremely well there.
I have less use for Tejada than I did for Ike Davis.
I know it's a ZERO percent chance at happening, but I'd still like it if Puello had an outside chance of making the team somehow. Maybe bring in a right handed vet with pop on a spring training invite so at least Puello would have the slimmest of shots of beating him out if he caught fire in spring training. I know its unlikely but Im gonna be bummed if the dude shows up in shape and is hitting and we have to cut him because he is out of options.
Anyways. Plenty of Rule V options for another lefty reliever, as well as some names left in free agency. If you are going all in on an outfielder with pop for the bench just sign Ludwick. He'd probably play like 30 games and he would bring some serious power off the bench.
Lineup
1.) Lagares
2.) Murphy
3.) Wright
4.) Duda
5.) Cuddyer
6.) Granderson
7.) TDA
8.) Flores
Rotation
1.) Harvey
2.) deGrom
3.) Wheeler
4.) Neise
5.) Colon
Bullpen
Gee
Torres
Edgin
Black
Familia
Mejia
Parnell
Bench
Kirk
Puello
Cambell
Tejada/Tovar
Recker
AAA
MDD
Nimmo
Herrera
Reynolds
Plawecki
Montero
Matz
Syndergaard
Bowman
Mazzoni
Alvarez
Leathersich
Verrett
I like that team. Still a little tinkering left. One of the starters maybe gets traded for Miller like Cerrone keeps insisting? Swap out Tejada for Miller. Use the extra starter's spot for another lefty. We'll find somebody there. And then the last spot is the right-handed outfielder. Plenty of time to make these moves but man am I ready to see Harvey take the mound and kick this off!
And why would Sandy trade Syndergaard+ for someone like Miller and totally block both Reynolds and Cecchini. That would make no sense unless he thinks Mets can win it all in 2015 if they just add Miller.
Let Flores/Tejada play the position for the first few months. Then maybe you trade Murph at the deadline and move Flores to 2B.
Given Wright's health, I think you need to keep Flores around because Mets have no one else at 3B.
Yeah, its lineup that is not really outstanding at any one position but that's solid one through eight
I think we are a borderline playoff team now but I still don't think we are a finished product. We won't be a perennial WS contender until Harvey, deGrom, Wheeler are all hitting their primes in a few years and Syndergaard, Matz, ect have all broken in. I still think we need to see what we have with a few players like Flores. This kid has been a stud in our system for as long as I can remember. Give him a shot. He's as good an option as just about anybody. I think you'd still have fallback options in Reynolds and Tovar and we will still have excess to pull off a trade mid-season if he is REALLY so horrible like some believe.
I think it's a lot of projection, the addition of Cuddyer turns the Mets from last year (a bottom 5 offense) to a top 5? There is a ton of projection there. I hope you're right, but it's not something I'm confident in - I'm hopeful this isn't the finished product.
If it is, I'd be more confident that the pitching can carry the team with marginal offensive improvement (other than Cuddyer)
Very cool. Just realized Colon, Granderson, Cuddyer, and Recker are the only players on our roster at least not partially developed by our system.
David Wright must prove himself. Curtis Granderson must prove himself. Wilmer Flores must prove himself. TDA must stay injury free. Michael Cuddyer must stay injury free. There is no depth to speak of behind those guys. Thinking that a new year will erase DW's & CG's debacles is at best risky.
I like the pitching a lot, I think the lineup is getting better.. but we need a bit more offensively. I'd be disappointed if Cuddyer was the only "notable" move we made this winter.
You realize Ike Davis had 24 at-bats as a Met last year, right?
that's around 4 games.
that dragged down the offense? and Dominic Brown is on the Philies.
How is 1B going to be "much better" than its 2014 counterpart? Duda is going to hit 40 HRs or something?
Lagares can stay the course, if the above happens they can carry Lagares's bat.
But...for the above to happen we're assuming the best case.
And I'm generally not negative, but when's the last time "best case" happened with the Mets?
On the pitching side my only real concern is people penciling Harvey as 2013 Harvey. I hope that's the case, but no guarantee.
And, as PJ said, it's the Mets - when does everything break right? After all this time losing, If 90 wins is the goal, they need to have a roster that's not only capable of winning 90 but capable of winning 95-100 (in a best case scenario). That's what it is to be a true contender, and that's what this team would be if they could add just 1 more significant piece. You can't just expect them to develop the winning culture the Giants/Cardinals have overnight and waltz into the season/playoffs with an 88 win team and expect them to compete.
Lagares can stay the course, if the above happens they can carry Lagares's bat.
But...for the above to happen we're assuming the best case.
And I'm generally not negative, but when's the last time "best case" happened with the Mets?
On the pitching side my only real concern is people penciling Harvey as 2013 Harvey. I hope that's the case, but no guarantee.
Wait your combining leagues in which there is a DH in one?? Not how it works. They need to move from 8th to 5th... 3 spots.
Quote:
Best possible outcomes across the board. Full seasons are better than half seasons. Upgrades are upgrades. I'd make a friendly wager that assuming health and full seasons C, 3B, SS, 1B, LF, and RF are all better to much better over their 2014 counterparts. Now of course injuries can strike but our bench and pool to draw from in AAA is also much stronger than last year. We could lose any player in the lineup for a stretch and replace them with a pretty good player and that simply wasn't the case in years past. And moving from 8th in runs scored to 5th isn't the monumental leap some are making it out to be.
How is 1B going to be "much better" than its 2014 counterpart? Duda is going to hit 40 HRs or something?
I said better to much better not much better for everyone. Duda would fall into the slightly better range. The shorter porch will help him along with a fresh full season as the starter. I'm guessing 35.
I'm still really skeptical. If they don't want to give up an stud arm or two to get an SS, why not sign one of the stud bullpen arms (Miller/Robertson) and have an elite pen? We need upgrades wherever we can get them. One injury to Familia/Meija and we're relying on post TJ Parnell and probably converting starters into relievers to try to put a pen together.
It's a team that will probably not make the playoffs if they just stand pat. They'll get close, but.. not close enough.
We need a little more.
How is 1B going to be "much better" than its 2014 counterpart? Duda is going to hit 40 HRs or something?
I assume Duda will regress a bit, but one could argue that 1B could get better just by giving 60 of Duda's ABs vs LHPs to Cuddyer.
Also, to whoever speculated that Miller would require Syndergaard+, I think that is nonsense. And while I'm on it, does anyone notice the insane assumptions made by Metsblog on what it would take Wheeler/deGrom PLUS Syndergaard to get Kemp or Alexei Ramirez. I have no idea why I still go to that site.
But I also have higher expectations (in other words, I have not been disappointed - even a little in their results so far because I've expected them to stink). This year will be different.
I'm not as optimistic with the offense as ZG, but I feel with one more move they could be a legit contender. SS. they HAVE to upgrade SS. Maybe that means Flores, but you don't tender Tejada at 1.5? to be your backup SS.
And then you still need bounce backs or improvement from a bunch of guys, no significant regression, and no major injuries.
very thin margin for error, but the Mets can contend this year.
I think the domestic abuse, DUI and PED stuff likely scares off the Mets even if he were good (which he likely isn't). I almost feel like aim higher or stick with Flores. I'm still hoping they somehow land a guy like Miller too.
He's a SS version of EY, but the opposite off the field. I'd replace Tejada with him on a 1/$2mm deal. Just a guess, but wouldn't expect the Mets to look into him much unless he is still unsigned in February.
Asdrubal? Maybe. He's twice as good as Tejada, but he seems like the Mets would be settling.
Seems like Reyes is out now that the Jays feel like they're contenders again, but I'd still look at a trade for a SS, but Cabrera isn't a bad fallback that only costs cash.
But yeah, that's not the guy I'd want to go with as the everyday SS with Tejada behind him.
I'd like to see us swing a deal for Miller.
Most of these bloggers lapse into this grass is greener syndrome with other teams prospects. Tejada will wind up with way more ABs in his career than most of the SS being mentioned as trade possibilities for the Mets.
Tulo is the only guy who,significantly upgrades the lineup, but he would be a huge gamble with his health/contract.
The fact that the Mets are looking to trade for a guy rather than sign a free agent tells you they are not willing to spend for a top FA. So, given that, I think they would be better off signing cheap vets and looking for the next Marlon Byrd.
Chance to strengthen the pipeline even more and only costs money. But the Mets won't do it. Sucks.
Chance to strengthen the pipeline even more and only costs money. But the Mets won't do it. Sucks.
I'd love that and it's really the only thing we can really do that makes sense. Everyone wants more upgrades but if we are rolling with Flores I don't really see where we can upgrade. A right handed bench bat and another LOOGY maybe but the team is set and solid across the board. I don't see any holes this year.
Sure but there's plenty of time and a million options out there. You're talking about the 7th spot in the pen. Would we be really so far off if we just re-signed Eveland?
Quote:
LOOGY more than maybe. Currently the second lefty is a guy with 1 major league inning who wasn't pitching in affiliated baseball in 2010, 2011, 2012
Sure but there's plenty of time and a million options out there. You're talking about the 7th spot in the pen. Would we be really so far off if we just re-signed Eveland?
Yes but you said "maybe" while the Mets themselves have been pretty open about admitting it's an issue (apparently have contacted all but Miller) in the LH reliever market. More than a maybe given who they have. It's an issue. The bench also isn't very good at the moment. Tejada, Recker, Kirk, maybe MDD (but serve the same purpose), Campbell (far too much BBI/twitter love for his 2014, guy had a .348 BABIP with a 26.1% K rate. They should absolutely be better but they have pretty clear flaws at the moment.
4.41 for his career vs. A 4.32 league average
Most Met fans would probably say Reyes is a better fielder but his range factor is way worse
4.12 vs 4.34!league average
Flores's range factor is dreadful
A right handed power bat changes the bench from good to very good. Kirk, Ludwick, Cambell, Tejada, and Recker looks nice to me especially with the options we can draw on from AAA this year.
Agreed.
Ramirez 4.41
Miller 3.96 (lg avg is lower in AL: 4.04)
You ARE the optimistic one aren't you? I think we are plus / minus 5 wins in either direction off of last year depending on how things break. And with the Mets, things usually break one way . . .
Parnell, Familia, and Parnell can all hit triple digits and generally sit in the upper 90s. Coming in after those guys, a lefty with a sweeping slider at 87 mph is going to have guys so far out in front.
LOOGYs should be fighting to get into this pen. I actually would bring back Eveland. He is still adjusting to that role but already did a decent job. I think he will get better at it. And he pairs well with the hard throwing Edgin
Terry loves the situational lefty. You have to give him the tools that fit with how he manages
Parnell, Familia, and Parnell can all hit triple digits and generally sit in the upper 90s.
Parnell USED TO hit triple digits. His velocity was declining. Also, I don't see Familia or Parnell on this list:
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/sports/8-mlb-pitchers-throwing-100-mph-or-faster-in-2014.html/?a=viewall
Terry loves the situational lefty. You have to give him the tools that fit with how he manages
He will. Byrdak, Rice, Eveland? Sandy has a knack for finding guys.
Quote:
This has to be the hardest throwing collection of arms the Mets have ever had.
Parnell, Familia, and Parnell can all hit triple digits and generally sit in the upper 90s.
Parnell USED TO hit triple digits. His velocity was declining. Also, I don't see Familia or Parnell on this list:
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/sports/8-mlb-pitchers-throwing-100-mph-or-faster-in-2014.html/?a=viewall
List or not I saw Familia hit 100 with my own eyes. Black sits around 98. Mejia 96.
Unlike the Yankees and other big market teams looking to contend, Miller is out of their price range and re: SS there may be a better alternative to Lowrie via trade. Point is simply that if they were to forgo all options and simply go into the season with what they have they would be doing this team a disservice. There are players out there who can make this team better, as it has every other year it just comes down to how much money Sandy is allowed to spend.
c'mon this is just delusional. Andrew Miller would be BY FAR the Mets best reliever. "In the mix"? He was off the charts amazing this past year. The Mets would easily trade 2 or even all 3 of those other guys for Miller (money not the issue).
Familia- 3.07 FIP 0.5 WAR
Mejia 3.73 FIP 0.2 WAR
Miller- 1.51 FIP, 2.3 WAR
Questioning if he's even a closer because he's yet to do it. Not because of how good he is, c'mon man acting like Andrew Miller wouldn't be a MASSIVE addition to the pen is a joke. I know your whole thing is hyperbole but Miller is an elite MLB reliever. 14.87 K/9? Are you kidding me. The Mets would deal Familia or Mejia AND Black AND Parnell for Miller in a milisecond and not think twice if the money were the same.
Why you going off the rails again? I never once said he wouldn't be an upgrade. Your ADD is kicking in. I said he isn't a NEED!
Andrew Miller the past 3 seasons (which is more relevant than adding time when he was a starter don't you think? What a stupid stat to quote for your argument wow.) 163 games 2.57 era 1.05 whip, 133 innings 202 k's
Quote:
not even going to debate this. For all of your arguments this one may be the most ridiculous. Saying that money shouldn't be used on a reliever is one thing but to act like Miller wouldn't be a massive upgrade/addition because of who they have is comical. Comical.
Why you going off the rails again? I never once said he wouldn't be an upgrade. Your ADD is kicking in. I said he isn't a NEED!
"In the mix" with other guys implies the guys they have are all equal to Miller does it not?
Elite bullpen? The Mets bullpen may be good but elite is a joke right now considering they were 30/30 in fWAR last year (Valverde and Farnsworth didn't pitch 500 innings to pull it all down, and 23rd in FIP. Could/should certainly be better this year but "elite" based on your dreams is silly.
Yeah I guess being absolutely dominant vs. righties in 2014 was a fluke. Weird how 22 teams have contacted his agent knowing his asking price with this knowledge.
vs. righties in 2014 .142/.245/.202 (36.1 innings)
9th/15 in bullpen FIP in the National League
15th/15 in the WAR in the national league
9th/15 in xFIP
6th/15 in Krate
Numbers for every team linked below
Link - ( New Window )
I'm done with this argument. Truly ridiculous.
Unfortunately, fewer people now feel the team can win 85-90 games, which dropped from 42 percent to 27 percent.
Nice argument change. Well done. Who said he was a "need"? You made the claim 1. He's the same level as the guys we have 2. Cited his career era (which means nada given the fact it's 2.57 over the last 3 seasons now that he's in the pen)
3. Cited the fact some teams don't know if he will be a good closer (which of course is based on the fact he hasn't done it before, not that his talent level vs. closing is in question).
Andrew Miller is an elite level reliever. His numbers vs. righties since moving to the bullpen are excellent. His 2014 was one for the ages (and he maybe, or even probably can't match it) but if 30 teams were asked to pick 1 reliever from the Mets or Miller... 30/30 teams would take Miller. 30/30.
I honestly don't know. Miller had one great year not as a closer. Is he better than Mejia or Parnell who have proven they can do it? Is he better than Familia? Yeah probably but Familia has just as much upside. We all saw how dominant he was. Bottom line is I wouldn't even consider giving Miller closer money with the options we have
Adding Miller to an already good pen would give it that potential to be one of the best in the game. Yes he's somewhat of a one hit wonder, but how is that any different than crediting the Mets players who "broke out" last year as reliable? "Going into last year" Vic Black got demoted, Familia couldn't find the strike zone, Mejia was a starter who couldn't get through the 3rd time seeing an order - and of course it goes without saying none of them have even sniffed a meaningful playoff inning.
Re: Lowrie, he's not perfect but he's also 1 year removed from a better season than Murphy has ever put up, while being a better defender at a harder position. Trading for someone better is preferred, but if that's not possible he would certainly make this team better.
Dude. You couldn't lick Dan's shoes.
2. Dilson Herrera (2B) 21 years old (AAA/MLB) 56% of 39 votes
3. Brandon Nimmo (CF) 22 years old (AAA) 33% of 43 votes (Run-off vs. Matz 55% of 40 votes)
4. Steven Matz (LHP) 24 years old (AAA) 69% of 48 votes
5. Michael Conforto (LF) 22 years old (A+) 49% of 43 votes
6. Kevin Plawecki (C) 24 years old (AAA) 59% of 34 votes
7. Rafael Montero (RHP) 24 years old (AAA/MLB) 65% of 37 votes
8. Marcos Molina (RHP) 20 years old (A) 43% of 40 votes (Run-off with Rosario 55% of 40 votes)
9. Amed Rosario (SS) 19 years old (A) 75% of 40 votes
10. Jhoan Urena (3b) 20 years old (A) 42% of 38 votes
11. Gavin Cecchini (SS) 21 years old (A) 57% of 37 votes
12. Dominic Smith (1b) 20 years old (A) 75% of 28 votes
13. Matt Reynolds (SS/2b) 24 years old (AAA) 52% of 31 votes
14. Cory Mazzoni (RP/SP) 25 years old (AAA) 46% of 28 votes
15. Matthew Chou Bowman (SP/RP) 24 years old AAA 42% of 38 votes
16. Cesar Puello (23) AAA (OF) 24% of 33 votes, runoff with Fulmer 52% of 31 votes
17. Buca di Beppo (Becerra) 28% of 29 votes, runoff vs. Maz 57%
18. LJ Mazzilli (24) 28% of 32 votes, runoff with Meisner 52% of 31 votes
19. Casey Meisner (20) (A) 57% of 30 votes
20. Milton Ramos (19) (A) 21% of 28 votes, run-off with Ynoa 52% of 23 votes
21. Gabriel Ynoa (22) (AA) 64% of 22 votes
22. Champ Stuart (22) (A+) 36% of 25 votes
23. Michael Fulmer (22) (AA) 41% of 22 votes
24. Akeel Morris (22) (A+) 31% of 26 votes
25. Logan Verrett (25) (AAA) 27% of 22 votes, 47% of runoff with Whalen/Mateo
26. Jack Leathersich (25) (AAA) 24% of 17 votes, 57% of runoff with Whalen
27. Tyler Pill (24) (AAA) 40% of 20 votes
28. Rob Whalen (21) 48% of 21 votes
29. Dario Alvarez (26) 33% of 24 vores
30. Luis Mateo (26) 27% of 26 votes, 77% of runoff with Diaz
31. Robert Gsellman 30% of 23 votes
32. Miller Diaz 25% of 24 votes, runoff with Brosher/Sanchez 37%
33. Blake Taylor 22% of 18 votes, runoff with Brosher/Sanchez 38%
34. Ali Sanchez (C) 18 35% of 23 votes, runoff vs. Brosher 75%
35. Logan Taylor (RHP) 16% of 19 votes, runoff with Brosher/Boyd 44%
36. Jayce Boyd (1b) 35% of 17 votes
however; if you believe, like I do, the Mets have limited dollars I would not spend those limited dollars on Miller.
Because he a) doesn't have the greatest track record b) he's never closed c) relievers are the most fungible part of a baseball team and d) relievers have a tendency to be inconsistent from to year to year
and most importantly with the addition of Parnell the bullpen shapes up to be "good enough" those extra dollars (if they exist) are better spent elsewhere.
however; if you believe, like I do, the Mets have limited dollars I would not spend those limited dollars on Miller.
Because he a) doesn't have the greatest track record b) he's never closed c) relievers are the most fungible part of a baseball team and d) relievers have a tendency to be inconsistent from to year to year
and most importantly with the addition of Parnell the bullpen shapes up to be "good enough" those extra dollars (if they exist) are better spent elsewhere.
Yeah you explained it better than I did. That's basically what I meant. I've been in and out of meeting writing on my phone.
however; if you believe, like I do, the Mets have limited dollars I would not spend those limited dollars on Miller.
Because he a) doesn't have the greatest track record b) he's never closed c) relievers are the most fungible part of a baseball team and d) relievers have a tendency to be inconsistent from to year to year
and most importantly with the addition of Parnell the bullpen shapes up to be "good enough" those extra dollars (if they exist) are better spent elsewhere.
PJ,
To be clear we were debating ability wise. I made clear the argument against spending money like that on a reliever is very debatable. Miller being better than anyone we have really isn't. Not to mention in all honesty the list of guys who weren't "able to close" is really a lot shorter than people want to admit. People cite Dotel and Benitez (ridiculous) but either one even as closer would make the Mets a better team for example.
After checking with a few front office officials, the answer is that teams have figured out a nice quirk of the nontender deadline. Its one time that teams can clear a player off the 40-man roster without having to designate the player for assignment. Players nontendered do not hit the waiver wire, they become free agents immediately.
So the nontender deadline is a way to drop a prospect off the 40-man roster with a better chance of retaining him on a minor league contract than it would if you had to expose him on waivers for everyone to claim. The now-free agent can opt to sign with someone else, but thats often not as appealing as returning to the organization one already knows. Go to another organization and youre often just another guy. Stick with your existing organization and you have a few coaches, a signing scout or a roving instructor who is sticking up for you in organization meetings.
We dont know for sure that Heathcott or Campos will re-sign with the Yankees, and Partch could try to make another teams bullpen. But its a slight advantage in a business where teams are looking for any advantage.
the rest of his career (other than maybe one year) has been injury filled and short of his potential.
So, is this the Miller you get going forward or is it the injury riddled/under performer.
He was great last year, but a gamble IMO.
I do understand in a lot of cases the "light bulb" comes on a little later for relievers and maybe now he's healthy, but that same premise (late blooming stud reliever) can be applied to Familia or Edgin (who was fantastic last year vs righties and lefties) or Black, etc.
Like I said, if money was no issue I'd sign him, but I wouldn't consider him a sure thing to duplicate last year.
Adding Miller to an already good pen would give it that potential to be one of the best in the game. Yes he's somewhat of a one hit wonder, but how is that any different than crediting the Mets players who "broke out" last year as reliable? "Going into last year" Vic Black got demoted, Familia couldn't find the strike zone, Mejia was a starter who couldn't get through the 3rd time seeing an order - and of course it goes without saying none of them have even sniffed a meaningful playoff inning.
Re: Lowrie, he's not perfect but he's also 1 year removed from a better season than Murphy has ever put up, while being a better defender at a harder position. Trading for someone better is preferred, but if that's not possible he would certainly make this team better.
Eric the difference is I accept that we just went through a big rebuild and spent close to 4 years trading for prospects and drafting to get to this point. You are saying that I'm taking average to good performances and accepting mediocrity and I would agree that would not be an acceptable form of business practice if we want to improve. The difference is most of the players you are referring to are premium high impact prospects that most of which are experiencing success in their first full seasons. In those cases it is absolutely acceptable to accept their performances with an eye towards the future and not look for upgrades at this time. I'm referring to TDA, Flores, Duda, Herrera, Lagares, Harvey, Wheeler, deGrom, Black, Familia, Mejia, Edgin. If we aren't going to be happy off of already good performances and give these kids a chance to grow further, what was the whole thing about??
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Dan, its a losing battle my friend. For all the wrong reasons.
Dude. You couldn't lick Dan's shoes.
Yeah, im okay with DMM knowing more than me in regard to baseball. Its your firm grasp on ignorance that amuses me. And, as usual, you provide great evidence of that. Go ahead and flame away.
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if the Mets were the Yankees, I'd say 100% sign Miller, he without a doubt improves the pen.
however; if you believe, like I do, the Mets have limited dollars I would not spend those limited dollars on Miller.
Because he a) doesn't have the greatest track record b) he's never closed c) relievers are the most fungible part of a baseball team and d) relievers have a tendency to be inconsistent from to year to year
and most importantly with the addition of Parnell the bullpen shapes up to be "good enough" those extra dollars (if they exist) are better spent elsewhere.
PJ,
To be clear we were debating ability wise. I made clear the argument against spending money like that on a reliever is very debatable. Miller being better than anyone we have really isn't. Not to mention in all honesty the list of guys who weren't "able to close" is really a lot shorter than people want to admit. People cite Dotel and Benitez (ridiculous) but either one even as closer would make the Mets a better team for example.
Well over it but go back and read my original post. I clearly said "who's Paying". My argument always included the money aspect.
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but I think one thing you consistently do is mistake being 'average' or 'above average' at something for it not being a need. To win you need be the best at something. Sometimes you need to be the best at multiple things. The goal isn't to be just good enough at something that it's not a dire need. Any team trying to win needs to aim to be the best at as many things as possible.
Adding Miller to an already good pen would give it that potential to be one of the best in the game. Yes he's somewhat of a one hit wonder, but how is that any different than crediting the Mets players who "broke out" last year as reliable? "Going into last year" Vic Black got demoted, Familia couldn't find the strike zone, Mejia was a starter who couldn't get through the 3rd time seeing an order - and of course it goes without saying none of them have even sniffed a meaningful playoff inning.
Re: Lowrie, he's not perfect but he's also 1 year removed from a better season than Murphy has ever put up, while being a better defender at a harder position. Trading for someone better is preferred, but if that's not possible he would certainly make this team better.
Eric the difference is I accept that we just went through a big rebuild and spent close to 4 years trading for prospects and drafting to get to this point. You are saying that I'm taking average to good performances and accepting mediocrity and I would agree that would not be an acceptable form of business practice if we want to improve. The difference is most of the players you are referring to are premium high impact prospects that most of which are experiencing success in their first full seasons. In those cases it is absolutely acceptable to accept their performances with an eye towards the future and not look for upgrades at this time. I'm referring to TDA, Flores, Duda, Herrera, Lagares, Harvey, Wheeler, deGrom, Black, Familia, Mejia, Edgin. If we aren't going to be happy off of already good performances and give these kids a chance to grow further, what was the whole thing about??
We can be happy with good signs and already good performances with a chance to grow, but they are what their record is. None of those performances have produced a record over .500. Some prospects will continue to grow, others will regress. Anointing any before they really produced and established themselves over several years will at best result in the Wright/Reyes vs. Jeter/Arod argument from 2005. How did that chest thumping work out for the Mets? And also only a handful of the guys you mentioned qualify as "premium high impact prospects", if you're going by what their expectations were based on their talent/pedigrees. Very few if any of those guys were looked at as can't miss/perennial all stars (like Bryce Harper for example).
However, I would Be fine with Mejia as the closer. Parnell waiting n the wings if Jenry falters.
The problem with signing a closer is that it is not going to make either Mejia or Parnell very happy. I'd rather invest in a top flight LOOGY. Though the Mets missed the boat a little on that one.
However, I would Be fine with Mejia as the closer. Parnell waiting n the wings if Jenry falters.
The problem with signing a closer is that it is not going to make either Mejia or Parnell very happy. I'd rather invest in a top flight LOOGY. Though the Mets missed the boat a little on that one.
With your scenario won't 1 of them be unhappy either way? Especially if it's Parnell who closes upon his return since it means Mejia goes into the year the closer and is bumped.
If Parnell is ready day one Im betting he is named the closer. If he's not ready and Mejia is the closer I doubt Parnell is just anointed the closer role after the fact. He'll likely have to earn it back. Just what I think.
If Parnell is ready day one Im betting he is named the closer. If he's not ready and Mejia is the closer I doubt Parnell is just anointed the closer role after the fact. He'll likely have to earn it back. Just what I think.
Sandy actually said the opposite of him being ready opening day.
Right now I think were projecting sometime after the season starts, Alderson said about Parnell pitching in the majors. But thats just an educated guess right now.
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to be ready for opening day. Sandy said he should be ready around then or shortly thereafter but admits he's completely guessing.
If Parnell is ready day one Im betting he is named the closer. If he's not ready and Mejia is the closer I doubt Parnell is just anointed the closer role after the fact. He'll likely have to earn it back. Just what I think.
Sandy actually said the opposite of him being ready opening day.
Right now I think were projecting sometime after the season starts, Alderson said about Parnell pitching in the majors. But thats just an educated guess right now.
No I just said Sandy said he might not be ready opening day but shortly thereafter as a guess. I was referring to what Parnell himself said that he was shooting for opening day. Tommy John is basically a year and sometimes even shorter for relievers. Wouldn't be shocked at all if Parnell was ready or not. Neither would surprise me.
lol. Here we go again. 100% eh?
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will 100% open the season on the DL.
lol. Here we go again. 100% eh?
Ok, if I'm right you don't post on BBI for a month, if I'm wrong I'll do the same? That's how sure I am. Opening day would be exactly 12 months and the Mets have openly been more cautious with TJ rehab after the Braves 2 time duo went down in successive days. Shut down Mateo, slowed down Harvey and tried to slow down Hefner which didn't work. 0.00% chance Bobby Parnell is available opening day. Bet? Let's do this.
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In comment 12016589 DanMetroMan said:
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will 100% open the season on the DL.
lol. Here we go again. 100% eh?
Ok, if I'm right you don't post on BBI for a month, if I'm wrong I'll do the same? That's how sure I am. Opening day would be exactly 12 months and the Mets have openly been more cautious with TJ rehab after the Braves 2 time duo went down in successive days. Shut down Mateo, slowed down Harvey and tried to slow down Hefner which didn't work. 0.00% chance Bobby Parnell is available opening day. Bet? Let's do this.
You are such a fucking amazing asshole sometimes? And again you want to make an argument or a fight about something Im not even arguing about. Never once did I say he would be ready for opening day. Not once. In fact I just said, neither would surprise me. We likely won't know for months but my point was most pichers are coming back in 12 months these days, especially relievers.
I think people are forgetting how good Parnell was in 2013. Are we not sitting around talking about what Miller is getting on the open market? Parnell at 3-4 million is a bargain if he is truly is healthy IMO. And he'll be ready pretty close to the start of the season regardless if there are no setbacks.
Now he's coming off TJ.
I just am not looking for much out of him this year. If he's an extra reliever, we could do worse. Just don't see him having a major role in this pen.
Does this roster even have 5 guys on it who've played a playoff game? Wright, Granderson, Colon, Cuddyer...?
Guys with playoff experience? Seriously? Could care less. Far more interested in putting good players on the field then who has made the playoffs or not. I just mentioned earlier in this thread that 21 out of our 25 projected players are homegrown on this team and after a very long rebuild, most have just hit the team within the last year or so. I don't think we need to criticize our young studs because they haven't made the playoffs yet. Most have broken in with the Mets and we all know we haven't been there in a while.
Look. I get berated for being overly optimistic but Ive generally been pretty dead on with much of what has happened with the Mets over the last few years. I stood here last year and said 77 wins many times and stood by it. Ill stand by 87/88 this year. Everyone can find me at season's end Ill take all the shit you all want if Im wrong. There will be plenty of room on the bus if Im right however.
What? Who said 0% before June? I said 0% chance opening day. I'll spot you 2 weeks how about that? Parnell will not appear in the Mets first 15 games, if he does I won't post for a month, if he doesn't you agree to the same. Deal?
Wow ok. I think I would have rather posted slash lines because WAR is effected by defense so much. But Ill give you a rough estimate.
Curtis Granderson. 1.7. I think he'll have a bounce back season with the shorter porch, working with Long, and shifting to LF where his arm strength will be mitigated. He might actually break 2.
Juan Lagares. 4. He was 3.8 last year and still didn't play a full season. I think his bat and base stealing will improve slightly.
Michael Cuddyer. 1.9 He was 1.5 last year in limited time and 2.4 in 2013. Ill put him in the middle of that. This is hard because Cuddyer doesn't have a lot of range but he was also playing in the biggest RF in the game in Colorado. His defense obviously will bring his WAR down but if he plays 120+ games his offense should add a ton to the lineup.
David Wright. 4.0. He was 6.0 in 2013 but I don't trust he'll be 100% that player going forward. His defense and hitting should still make him a 4.0 WAR player if he is healthy though
Daniel Murphy. 3.0. He was 3.0 in 2013 and 2.8 in 2014 because his defense regressed a little. I think his defense will bounce back to 2013 levels and his offense is consistent as it comes.
Wilmer Flores. 2.5. Kind of in line with what Steamer predicts if he plays a whole season. This could go higher depending if he breaks out but even on the low end I bet he hits 15 homeruns by accident.
Lucas Duda. 3.5. Anybody who really watched Duda saw the light bulb came on last season. With a full season, a shorter porch and all the confidence in the world Im betting he improves further. 35 homeruns.
TDA. 3.0 Steamer predicts 2.9. That sounds about right. He'll cut down on the passed balls and slug 15-20 homeruns which will make him a top 5 catcher.
Obviously this is assuming health for all of them. I think if any of these players went down, their replacement players would be much better then in years past. I'd be confident losing any player for some time and feel we could fill that position adequately.
You want pitchers too?
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Fine fuck it. Lets do it. If he comes back before June you can't post for what a week? a day? Let's be reasonable and still be cool about it. If not I won't. June seems ridiculous sorry.
What? Who said 0% before June? I said 0% chance opening day. I'll spot you 2 weeks how about that? Parnell will not appear in the Mets first 15 games, if he does I won't post for a month, if he doesn't you agree to the same. Deal?
Absolutely not. lol. You said May/June. Now its April 15th? I never said he would be ready for opening day just that it might be possible. But your idiotic June comment I will bet you on.
Jacob deGrom 4.0. Over a full season I see his WAR going up. He'll be real good in 2015.
Zack Wheeler 2.5. He took a step up over the second half. Im betting he takes another small step next year.
Jon Niese. 1.6. Im worried about Jon and his arm but I don't think he's finishing the year in the rotation anyway.
Bartolo Colon. 2.1 if he lasts all year. See Jon Niese.
"Parnell
DanMetroMan : 5:26 pm : link : reply
will "stay in St. Lucie" when the Mets break camp, and join the team in May or June barring setbacks."
You make it sound like I definitely said he wouldn't be back until June. Can you please supply some data or names that prove your assertion that "12 months" is becoming the norm? It's quite the opposite. The industry is realizing too many guys are rushing back and 14-18 months is now the "accepted" time table.
"Parnell
DanMetroMan : 5:26 pm : link : reply
will "stay in St. Lucie" when the Mets break camp, and join the team in May or June barring setbacks."
You make it sound like I definitely said he wouldn't be back until June. Can you please supply some data or names that prove your assertion that "12 months" is becoming the norm? It's quite the opposite. The industry is realizing too many guys are rushing back and 14-18 months is now the "accepted" time table.
Yeah ok Dan. As ridiculous as me saying Ill take your bet if you want to say May/June which you clearly said, is you saying I said he'll 100 percent be ready opening day. I never said anything even remotely like that. You've made a habit of attacking me off misinterpreted shit all day. Just drop it.
Haha. WHAT?? Never. I said if he didn't wait 2 months to have surgery he might have made it back last year. Clearly not after he sat around and waited forever.
ok. Thanks for that. Awesome insight. Now I can go to sleep.
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Please give me the proof that recent history supports this fact? I just showed you a study from last month which states 15-16 months is now the norm.
The Mets were so concerned with his neck stuff there were rumors if the surgery wasn't 100% successful Parnell would never pitch again. It was no minor deal.
Duda - improving upon a huge year because he's playing more than 153 games this year (2x his steamer proj)
Granderson, Wright, and Cuddyer are fair predictions, the concern is obviously health with all 3.
Flores is impossible to predict and still not likely to play SS every day for the season (even if he starts there).
TdA & Lagares are optimistic but fair in the lens of the rest, though they bring the tally to 5 career best seasons expected.
I don't even give a fuck about this. Im tired of arguing about things I never meant to argue in the first place. What is your point in all of this again? That it is 100 percent impossible for Parnell to make it back in a year, right? Well, going off a statistics you sound like the moron even if it is unlikely.
Now now, personal attacks (first try didn't work so you went for times 2? nice). Vic Black has a good arm, he was also worth 0.0 WAR last year. If you want to argue the Mets bullpen could/should be much better this year go for it but your assertion that the mets have all of these guys who had big seasons and are already proven good relievers is 100% false. You totally ignored my question earlier "based on what stats were the Mets relievers the 3rd best in baseball"? FIP and fWAR say otherwise
Duda - improving upon a huge year because he's playing more than 153 games this year (2x his steamer proj)
Granderson, Wright, and Cuddyer are fair predictions, the concern is obviously health with all 3.
Flores is impossible to predict and still not likely to play SS every day for the season (even if he starts there).
TdA & Lagares are optimistic but fair in the lens of the rest, though they bring the tally to 5 career best seasons expected.
Murphy is absolutely realistic. He has basically been the exact same player the last two years. Im not projecting anything outside of the norm of that. Steamer is never going to like a player like Duda because they haven't watched him like we have. They see that he's been in the league for a while and view this past season as an outlier although we all know that isn't the story with him. Im only predicting slight improvement. Of course Im going to predict career years when half the players in our lineup are only coming off their first season. lol.
That was tongue in cheek and yeah I saw Familia throwing triple digits in Orlando pitch after in spring training last year. Maybe the gun was off? Im pretty sure he hit 100 in the season too but I could give a rats ass if you believe what I saw or not.
Huh? I think you've lost it Dan. lol
- Sandy says unlikely Parnell is ready opening day (negative would be Sandy saying he will be or 50/50 and me choosing the former)
- You said the pen was 3rd in the NL, didn't supply any stat you were quoting and refused my inquiry as to which.
- Despite your denials you claimed Lannan, Rice, Farnsworth and Valverde were the reasons.
-Asserted Miller would simply "be in the mix" in the Mets pen ie the guys we have are as good
-Asserted the Mets pen is "elite"
Please point out where I was unfairly negative on this thread. Thank you in advance.
I didn't realize pitchFX charts spring training games? Do they?
- Sandy says unlikely Parnell is ready opening day (negative would be Sandy saying he will be or 50/50 and me choosing the former)
- You said the pen was 3rd in the NL, didn't supply any stat you were quoting and refused my inquiry as to which.
- Despite your denials you claimed Lannan, Rice, Farnsworth and Valverde were the reasons.
-Asserted Miller would simply "be in the mix" in the Mets pen ie the guys we have are as good
-Asserted the Mets pen is "elite"
Please point out where I was unfairly negative on this thread. Thank you in advance.
Nobody has to look for clues in this thread to know your a negative human being. lol Everything you say slants that way. You get fired up and post articles the moment anything breaks about the Wilpon's finances or if a player get's injured. Never here anything from you regarding anything good out of the Mets. You are sarcastic and look at the worst case scenarios in everything. The Mets will be contenders in 2016-2017 anyone? And honestly I don't know why. I think its simply to go against everything I post. I used to be on NYFS and still read there occasionally. Your not like that over there. I can't figure it out.
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gun on TV with you watching tells you the velocity of pitchers "on average" vs. pitchFX/fangraphs which charts them? Sure makes sense to me.
I didn't realize pitchFX charts spring training games? Do they?
Wow. You said
" Parnell, Familia, and Parnell can all hit triple digits and generally sit in the upper 90s. Coming in after those guys, a lefty with a sweeping slider at 87 mph is going to have guys so far out in front."
What the hell does you seeing them throw that (supposedly) in ST (when guys generally don't even throw as hard) have to do withg your claims they all "sit" upper 90's? wowzas.
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point out where I have been "negative".
- Sandy says unlikely Parnell is ready opening day (negative would be Sandy saying he will be or 50/50 and me choosing the former)
- You said the pen was 3rd in the NL, didn't supply any stat you were quoting and refused my inquiry as to which.
- Despite your denials you claimed Lannan, Rice, Farnsworth and Valverde were the reasons.
-Asserted Miller would simply "be in the mix" in the Mets pen ie the guys we have are as good
-Asserted the Mets pen is "elite"
Please point out where I was unfairly negative on this thread. Thank you in advance.
Nobody has to look for clues in this thread to know your a negative human being. lol Everything you say slants that way. You get fired up and post articles the moment anything breaks about the Wilpon's finances or if a player get's injured. Never here anything from you regarding anything good out of the Mets. You are sarcastic and look at the worst case scenarios in everything. The Mets will be contenders in 2016-2017 anyone? And honestly I don't know why. I think its simply to go against everything I post. I used to be on NYFS and still read there occasionally. Your not like that over there. I can't figure it out.
Wait, I fully admit I said the Mets would not be contenders until 2016-2017 before last year, and? The Mets are so good on paper they can't possibly end up with 81-83 wins 6 games out of the WC? In fact, I'd argue 2016-2017 is WAY more likely with Harvey year 2 from TJ, Nimmo likely his first full season etc.
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In comment 12016962 DanMetroMan said:
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gun on TV with you watching tells you the velocity of pitchers "on average" vs. pitchFX/fangraphs which charts them? Sure makes sense to me.
I didn't realize pitchFX charts spring training games? Do they?
Wow. You said
" Parnell, Familia, and Parnell can all hit triple digits and generally sit in the upper 90s. Coming in after those guys, a lefty with a sweeping slider at 87 mph is going to have guys so far out in front."
What the hell does you seeing them throw that (supposedly) in ST (when guys generally don't even throw as hard) have to do withg your claims they all "sit" upper 90's? wowzas.
Ummmm. Wrong poster moron. Lol. That wasn't even me. haha.
OMG. I already did in this thread. I apologized and said I meant 4th, not 3rd, because I was looking at Bullpen ERA(admittedly a weak stat) Guess your ADD missed that too. Man you are just sloppy today. Not your best at all. Im disappointed Dan. I hold you to a higher standard. lol
I know. Im sorry. lol
"We won't be a perennial WS contender until Harvey, deGrom, Wheeler are all hitting their primes in a few years and Syndergaard, Matz, ect have all broken in."
Yet 5 minutes ago you mocked me for saying (before the 2014 season) they wouldn't be contenders until 2016-2017, which is one season from now... God i'm negative.
No problem. Obviously no team is going to stay healthy all year but I don't think Im far off any projections individually assuming health.
"We won't be a perennial WS contender until Harvey, deGrom, Wheeler are all hitting their primes in a few years and Syndergaard, Matz, ect have all broken in."
Yet 5 minutes ago you mocked me for saying (before the 2014 season) they wouldn't be contenders until 2016-2017, which is one season from now... God i'm negative.
I think perennial WS contenders hold a different meaning than playoff contenders but thats just me. Im willing to drop this if you are Dan? No idea why you've been so crazy today.
-Blue Jays perennial cockteases but Saunders, Martin, Travis, Donaldson, Estrada... nice off-season right there, really could use a Lester or Samardizja though
- Orioles took a step back losing both Cruz and Markakis.
Added Miller, Markakis, Jim Johnson
Curious to see what they get for Gattis and/or Upton.
Wasn't trying to be personal by asking if you were having gf issues or a bad day at the office? I was actually trying to be kind. lol. We all have rough days. I don't think I was being nasty by asking that.
It sounds like the Braves are getting good offers for Upton and moving him next week. I think they're making some interesting moves. I didn't want Markakis at that price (or any price) but could see him working out for ATL for some reason. Their mix was clearly off with how badly they underachieved, and apparently they don't have much in the minors, so dealing 2 guys who they've determined to be non-core players (not getting resigned next year) is fairly low risk.
It sounds like the Braves are getting good offers for Upton and moving him next week. I think they're making some interesting moves. I didn't want Markakis at that price (or any price) but could see him working out for ATL for some reason. Their mix was clearly off with how badly they underachieved, and apparently they don't have much in the minors, so dealing 2 guys who they've determined to be non-core players (not getting resigned next year) is fairly low risk.
Also doesn't seem impossible for Markakis to put up Heyward caliber numbers offensively. I have a feeling even when they deal Upton they end up being annoyingly solid. Teheran, Wood, Minor, Miller and I'm guessing they get a pitcher in any Upton deal (Walker was rumored).
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but glad you guys made up. Can't spare any remaining Mets fans fighting anyone other than the Wilpons.
It sounds like the Braves are getting good offers for Upton and moving him next week. I think they're making some interesting moves. I didn't want Markakis at that price (or any price) but could see him working out for ATL for some reason. Their mix was clearly off with how badly they underachieved, and apparently they don't have much in the minors, so dealing 2 guys who they've determined to be non-core players (not getting resigned next year) is fairly low risk.
Also doesn't seem impossible for Markakis to put up Heyward caliber numbers offensively. I have a feeling even when they deal Upton they end up being annoyingly solid. Teheran, Wood, Minor, Miller and I'm guessing they get a pitcher in any Upton deal (Walker was rumored).
Yup - Freeman, Simmons, Markakis, Gattis, Kimbrel, Tehran, Miller - plus Upton or whatever they get for him. They'll be decent.
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Reynolds was our 2nd round pick in 2012. He had a difficult year in 2013, but made adjustments in the off-season and had a very good 2014.
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The throwing was decent until his arm started hurting him towards the end of the year(bone chip)
Reynolds was our 2nd round pick in 2012. He had a difficult year in 2013, but made adjustments in the off-season and had a very good 2014. Link - ( New Window )
I'm extremely high on Reynolds. The dude just hits and hits and hits and his defense was MUCH better than expected last year. He's another reason I'm confident in rolling with Flores. We have backup plans and insurance policies if he can't handle the position this year.
I'm fine with passing on Didi, but they need to add something. Going into the season with Flores/Murphy would be a pretty disappointing "punt" in my view - and an ever bigger misuse of time last year by not letting Flores play more.
I'm fine with passing on Didi, but they need to add something. Going into the season with Flores/Murphy would be a pretty disappointing "punt" in my view - and an ever bigger misuse of time last year by not letting Flores play more.
The funny part we heard a million times they were looking for significantly more than Montero. That's the problem with having such a loaded system. Montero isn't even a top 10 prospect for us currently in some rankings so they feel gyped. In the Yankees system Montero is probably top 3 so they feel like they got one of their best players. Just a complete guess. Could be wrong.
In a vacuum it's not insane that the Mets still wouldn't want to do that, I'm just saying that will look bad next year if Gregorius is pumping out web gems in the Bronx while Murphy and Flores are watching grounders just out of their reach routinely turn into base hits.
B. Miller (or Taylor) and Gregorius seem(ed) like decent potential options to compete with Wilmer. Jed Lowrie and Drew seem like decent potential FA options to also provide some insurance - but it's hard to imagine you will be able to convince either of the veterans to sign without guaranteed playing time, so that would likely mean Murphy has been traded.
In a vacuum it's not insane that the Mets still wouldn't want to do that, I'm just saying that will look bad next year if Gregorius is pumping out web gems in the Bronx while Murphy and Flores are watching grounders just out of their reach routinely turn into base hits.
Apologies then. I dint even see the details of the trade yet. Just an overall feeling I get though regarding guys not named Syndergaard or Matz. Everyone's gunning for the top guys in every trade scenario and it's ridiculous. And in your scenario id gladly watch Didi and his .200 batting average make a web jem every now and again if Flores is smashing homeruns and driving in runners and Murphy is leading the leage in hits again. Flores made two errors last year and handled everything in his "zone" flawlessly. I'll take that tradeoff 7 days a week. Sorry.
Wilmer (354 ABs) - .240 / .275 / .356
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
B. Miller (or Taylor) and Gregorius seem(ed) like decent potential options to compete with Wilmer. Jed Lowrie and Drew seem like decent potential FA options to also provide some insurance - but it's hard to imagine you will be able to convince either of the veterans to sign without guaranteed playing time, so that would likely mean . Murphy has been traded.
Yeah and I'm furious about that because it had nothing to do with our scouting. Sandy wanted Flores to get the job multiple times. Collins fucked that all up last year in a lost year. The guy is obsessed with Tejada. Flores still showed up even with the jerking around though. Lowrie isn't being signed to be a backup. I like Miller mostly because I think he could platoon with Flores and they'd both get atbats and playing time but I still think Flores would have the higher upside and I don't want him benched and seeing a repeat of last year again. I think the organization needs to give Flores a shot. He offers more upside then any of the guys you are referring to. He could put up a Castro type season and I don't think many would be shocked. You have to let that play out.
Wilmer (354 ABs) - .240 / .275 / .356
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
Can you please at least compare the two players to equal atbats? No idea where you took that from but if it's Flores's last minor leage stint at least include his last 600 atbats which would blow Didi out of the water.
MLB
Didi - 270 ABs - .226 / .290 / .363 (1.1 WAR)
Flores - 259 ABs - .251 / .286 / .378 (.2 WAR)
PCL
Didi - 260 ABs - .310 / .389 / .447
Flores - 241 ABs - .323 / .367 / .568
MLB
Didi - 270 ABs - .226 / .290 / .363 (1.1 WAR)
Flores - 259 ABs - .251 / .286 / .378 (.2 WAR)
PCL
Didi - 260 ABs - .310 / .389 / .447
Flores - 241 ABs - .323 / .367 / .568
Oh man. His major league stats? 300 atbats playing off the bench in over two seasons. That's crazy. I wouldn't look at a single thing Wilmer did until he took over SS for real in late August. So those 5 weeks is about the only thing I'd give credibility to because that's all we have. If you compare Wilmer's minor leage stats he is simply a much much better hitter.
Wilmer (354 ABs) - .240 / .275 / .356
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
Come on man. 350 ABs is meaningless, and over the last 25% of those Wilmer OPS'd 800+. So If you want to put anything into tiny sample sizes then you'd have to conclude that his bat DID show up. He wasnt getting consistent ABs before, which is really hard for a rookie to adjust to. I actually have a lot of confidence that Wilmer will hit well for a middle IF this year if he gets consistent ABs.
He certainly did over Tejada and forced Collins hand TWiCE. Literally every word out of Sandy's mouth has echoed what I've said. No option available is perfect and compared to most players Flores offers as much upside without trading anyone. Of course he's checking in and would like a Tulo or a Castro but I really do think Sandy would be ok with Flores heading in. I guess we'll see.
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Didi (647 ABs) - .243 / .313 / .366
Wilmer (354 ABs) - .240 / .275 / .356
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
Come on man. 350 ABs is meaningless, and over the last 25% of those Wilmer OPS'd 800+. So If you want to put anything into tiny sample sizes then you'd have to conclude that his bat DID show up. He wasnt getting consistent ABs before, which is really hard for a rookie to adjust to. I actually have a lot of confidence that Wilmer will hit well for a middle IF this year if he gets consistent ABs.
Agreed. Sorry Eric.
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Didi (647 ABs) - .243 / .313 / .366
Wilmer (354 ABs) - .240 / .275 / .356
We are Mets fans, have followed Wilmer as a prospect, and expect his bat to show up. That's optimistic but mostly fair. But to ignore that it hasn't so far AND that his defense is also a big concern is just flat out biased. Plenty of guys with great pedigrees have started seasons in slumps. Many expected Ike to start out guns blazing after his big 2nd halves - how did that work out?
Come on man. 350 ABs is meaningless, and over the last 25% of those Wilmer OPS'd 800+. So If you want to put anything into tiny sample sizes then you'd have to conclude that his bat DID show up. He wasnt getting consistent ABs before, which is really hard for a rookie to adjust to. I actually have a lot of confidence that Wilmer will hit well for a middle IF this year if he gets consistent ABs.
I completely agree, I'm just saying that Flores isn't exactly a proven commodity yet. To bank on him being a better overall SS than Gregorius, who starts off with a big advantage in the field, is not a lock.
ZG side tracks every discussion into arguing against his overly optimistic projections, my only point was that if Sandy doesn't do anything to address the lack of any defense in the middle infield the rest of this offseason, there's a good chance this is one of a handful of transactions that took place that will make us say "why didn't we do that?".
I'm not arguing strongly that we missed out on Gregorius, just that if we sit tight and nitpick everyone who could possibly help this team because there's no perfect solution out there, ultimately going to ST with last year's team + Harvey/Cuddyer it will be mistake.
I actually thought the DB were asking for Syndergaard in a Didi trade. Wasn't this just brought up a week ago? In any event, Montero is worth more anyway. Didi was BAD last year.
What you're saying contradicts Adam Rubin's report and he works for ESPN. What is your source?
Not making a move to try to add to the roster wouldn't be punting on the season, it would be punting on the rest of the offseason, which is what I strongly disagree with because I don't think this team has an elite bullpen or an offense on par with the Dodgers, as you do. And for the last time re:Didi - what the DB wanted is irrelevant because they could have tried to top what the Yanks gave DET. I can't say Didi will definitely outperform Flores but I also can't see any reason why having both compete in ST would have been a bad thing.
Not making a move to try to add to the roster wouldn't be punting on the season, it would be punting on the rest of the offseason, which is what I strongly disagree with because I don't think this team has an elite bullpen or an offense on par with the Dodgers, as you do. And for the last time re:Didi - what the DB wanted is irrelevant because they could have tried to top what the Yanks gave DET. I can't say Didi will definitely outperform Flores but I also can't see any reason why having both compete in ST would have been a bad thing.
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Mets never wanted Didi, want Owings. Mets laughed at Montero for Didi and THOR for Owings. Stewart never expected, or asked for a THOR for Didi swap.
What you're saying contradicts Adam Rubin's report and he works for ESPN. What is your source?
Marc Carig (Newsday) reported that too. What is your source re AZ not asking for Thor for Didi?
This much we agree on. But to be call this offseason a success the bare minimum, IMO, they still need to add a SS that guarantees Tejada never again sees the starting lineup and further solidify the bench/bullpen. I don't think either is unreasonable or unattainable, especially given the market value just set by today's trade.
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Is no longer available and if he was they want at least Syndergaard. No thank you No thank and No thank you. They can have him.
This much we agree on. But to be call this offseason a success the bare minimum, IMO, they still need to add a SS that guarantees Tejada never again sees the starting lineup and further solidify the bench/bullpen. I don't think either is unreasonable or unattainable, especially given the market value just set by today's trade.
Ok and that's in line with what I've said too. I expect a left handed pitcher brought in for the bullpen along with a right handed bat for the bench as well. I've said I'd be ok if a Miller is brought in to compete with Flores and personally I'd be happier if Tejada was off the team as well so Terry isn't tempted. I don't think those three pieces are the difference between an 85 win team and a 95 win team but it's all good.
Tejada is junk and nobody knows what you're going to get from Flores.
The position is pretty important.
Im okay with the Mets not trying to solve all their problems in time for 4/1/15. If the team looks strong we can make a midseason trade. Or maybe 2015 is still a transitional year, taking the place of 2014 (which was essentially sabotaged as our two best players were injured).
Is that why they were looking for a short stop and weren't afraid to say so?
What we do know right now is that the bullpen needs to be better, the defense needs to be better, and the offense could stand to get better also. To do nothing to address those needs (or purely make bargain basement deals) would be more of the "small market Mets" because the only reason to not do any of those things is $.
So doing nothing is self-defeating to them.
So doing nothing is self-defeating to them.
Yup. I'm not entirely advocating that these are the exact moves they should have made, but if they were the team that added a former top prospect at SS and the most coveted relief pitcher in the market it would have been a huge boost to the organization. As it is it's just a ho-hum day for the Yankees, and a likely appetizer to signing a Cy Young candidate.
The Mets cannot put the cherry on this offseason with Craig Breslow and then expect anyone to take their winning efforts seriously.
Me too. I'm actually hoping we don't screw it up at this point.
I would love it...
... if they signed Moncada.
I like Wilmer. I am a fan of his. I just don't think the Mets are a playoff team right now. I think they're close but there's not enough there for me. Not enough to pad against a few injuries or down years. The Mets will need almost everything to break right and I hate going into a year relying on that. You need room for error.
I'd like to see at least another minor upgrade or two. Regardless of where they come.
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playing 150 games at SS
I would love it...
... if they signed Moncada.
I like Wilmer. I am a fan of his. I just don't think the Mets are a playoff team right now. I think they're close but there's not enough there for me. Not enough to pad against a few injuries or down years. The Mets will need almost everything to break right and I hate going into a year relying on that. You need room for error.
I'd like to see at least another minor upgrade or two. Regardless of where they come.
Exactly how I feel. Miller just agreed with Yanks, 4 years 36M.
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playing 150 games at SS
I would love it...
... if they signed Moncada.
I like Wilmer. I am a fan of his. I just don't think the Mets are a playoff team right now. I think they're close but there's not enough there for me. Not enough to pad against a few injuries or down years. The Mets will need almost everything to break right and I hate going into a year relying on that. You need room for error.
I'd like to see at least another minor upgrade or two. Regardless of where they come.
I think we are all onboard with the minor upgrade or two. It's the major upgrades people feel we need I thought was in question. Moncada would be great to add even if he isn't a shortstop like some are now saying.
The problem isn't just Flores, it's having a middle infield of Flores/Murphy. Especially for a team that's strength is clearly on the pitching side.
This is how I feel and it's so ridiculous. People act like we are asking Duda to play SS next year. Lol. Flores has been a SS almost his entire life and after getting in very good shape last year played the position very well. Do people not understand how rare it is to have a 20 homerun 80 RBI bat at SS? It's almost unheard of. I'll gladly sacrifice his whopping 2 mistakes.
That and of course will reportedly report to St. Lucie as soon as he gets back to get with Barwis again. Did wonders last year. The kid works hard. Now imagine an entire offseason actually preparing for SS instead of being yanked there at the end of spring training without notice last year.
Wouldn't offense be much more important to a very good pitching staff then to have very good gloves opposed to just good gloves? Wouldn't a win be far more likely if a a Harvey was pitching and he had 5 runs of support opposed to 2???
With LESS run support aren't mistakes magnified and more pressure added?
If you have 5 outstanding pitchers, wouldn't defense be LESS important? If there is the occasional mistake in play, isn't the chances they'll get the next guy out much more likely then if they had less pitching?
Im really not trying to be flip. Has there ever been a study on this?
Eric feels we are an 85 win team. I feel we are an 88 win team. That's basically the difference and range in this entire forum. I also admittedly would think we were an 85 team as well if I didn't believe in Flores as much(and Reynolds actually) so there really isn't much of a disconnect at all.
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Eric feels we are an 85 win team. I feel we are an 88 win team. That's basically the difference and range in this entire forum. I also admittedly would think we were an 85 team as well if I didn't believe in Flores as much(and Reynolds actually) so there really isn't much of a disconnect at all.
At the very least, having Flores and Reynolds mean that we don't need to overpay. Giving up Thor for Didi would be ridiculous.
Does Alderson undervalue a manager so much that he leaves this putz in charge?
Does Alderson undervalue a manager so much that he leaves this putz in charge?
probably because he managed a minor league team and they did relatively well considering, while also developing some core type players. And the team likes him and plays hard for him.
When a team sucks ass, its easy to find "mistakes" in every game that rationalize firing the manager, and maybe the team wants to give him a chance to manage when they have a decent roster to see what he can accomplish while he's in charge.
He's done nothing to make anyone think he is an amazing manager who gets his teams to exceed expectations by great lengths but he also hasn't done anything to make any rational fan think he isn't capable of managing a decent or good team. They signed him on to manage for a bunch of years and maybe want to see how he does with a team that isn't predicted to finish under .500. It's not so insane outside of the media and the irrational, emotional, fire everyone if you aren't in the playoffs fanbase. Clearly many people are incapable of separating real expectations from dream scenarios of far exceeding predictions. He gets a year to manage a team with a real MLB roster (ideally) and if things dont go extremely well, he'll be replaced. I know most people think its an awful idea to be reasonable and give the guy a chance but some of us don't think it's such an insanely awful idea. During his time we've seen some legit improvement from some young players and the team plays until the last inning of the last game. For those of us who think the players matter dramatically more than the manager, keeping him in charge isn't so unimaginable. He didn't exactly get great performances from Wright and Granderson either and those players are essential to being in any conversation of playoff contention.
In any case, sorry for him remaining the manager. I'm sure you think another guy could have prevented Wright from getting hurt and Granderson from having 2-3 months of awful performance. If those guys play well and Harvey returns to form and Degrom and Wheeler continue to grow, it could help any manager on earth look way smarter.
He's bad manager and has no place managing a major league club.
Your long thesis defending his employment is comical.
over 4 for 18.5 per
I agree in the overall scheme a manager likely doesn't have much of an impact on an overall record(especially across the board), but Ive also heard a good manager can swing a record by a few wins and a bad manager can swing it the other way by a few wins. That could essentially be a 6 games swing.
Our Pythagorean Record had us finishing with 83 wins. We finished with 79. Does Terry have anything to do with that? He might. We all can agree his bullpen management drives us crazy sometimes. Did that not have any effect in all the one run losses we had early in the season? Most agree he basically ruined Byrdak, Feliciano, and Rice. He clearly favors veterans which shouldn't have been the case when we were clearly rebuilding.
Im going to try to not think about it this year. Collins knows he has to play Flores over Tejada. Im going to try to enjoy this season. If this team underperforms this upcoming season he is gone no matter what the excuses are .
The Mets weren't paying Collins AND another manager (Maddon got 25 million).
BS excuse? We can discuss reality or dreams. The Mets weren't going to pay Collins and Maddon roughly 7 million in 2015.
Football coach has MASSIVE impact. You could probably stick the best football coach in the country at some shit college and through the proper scheme improve them considerably. Even the NBA, at least the coach is calling plays, exploiting weaknesses, and consistent substitutions. In the MLB calling for a lefty to face a lefty or pinch hit your power guy for a Tejada.. who couldn't do that? Most of the managers value is in the clubhouse.
Turned down 10 per from Houston.
There's a reason that Terry Collins as sucked EVERYWHERE he has managed. It's because he's a bad coach...not middle of the road...just bad. I can appreciate those of you that think the manager has little impact on the game. I just happen to disagree.
Collins is way worse than Howe. And we get the privilege of having him for a 5th year. How this guy is on his fifth year of managing a MLB ballclub is maddening. NO major league club would have kept this clown this long. I really don't understand how any reasonable person can listen to this bumbling fool speak after games and feel comfortable with him as the manager. Mind numbing.
We know, thanks.
Hate to disagree with you since I dont know the players DET gave up, but none of the write ups suggest this. Neither is a top 100 prospect (and Thor is top 10-15). All they got for those two was Greene, who is 26 and people seem to regard as a back end guy with #3 as a CEILING. Yankees fans dont seem really broken up over losing Greene. So if Detroit gave up Thor+ value for Greene, they got fleeced, but Im not hearing any outrage out of the Motor City over this.
You know a lot more baseball than me, so Im curious as to how you get to your opinion (or if it was just a flip statement).
And Collins isn't a buffoon? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. This is the same guy that told the media that Tejada gave the Mets the best chance to win - this while Tejada was deep in a 3 for 34 slump and one of the worst offensive players in the league...only to be called out by a beat writer. Yeah, he's a regular member of Mensa. Come on, man.
It's just a step above arguing about Kevin Long being hired.
Got it...the next time you post something relevant will be the first.
Fuck off? Maybe? Pretty Please?
You are so witty. Hugs and kisses.
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BORN: Oct. 14, 1991 | DRAFTED: 7th round (2014)
BEST OUTCOME: Setup reliever
ETA: 2017
Brad Wieck struck out 39 hitters in 25.2 innings during his debut season in 2014. He allowed 17 hits and walked six hitters. Lefthanders batted just .114 against him, but his low three-quarters delivery was no picnic for righthanded batters either, who hit .220. He throws a fastball around 92-95 mph, a changeup and a sweeping slider, which he developed after having Tommy John surgery in 2010.
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What shortstop?
And he hasn't forced anything.
At first that frustrated me as a fan, and then I started to think maybe Sandy knows more than me and the options out there just weren't worth it.
Given the whole "5 year plan" theory, I will defer to Sandy for at least this season, his 5th as GM of them Mets.
and then I'll be more critical if the Mets are still non-competitive (not that he gives a crap about who I criticize)
Wouldn't offense be much more important to a very good pitching staff then to have very good gloves opposed to just good gloves? Wouldn't a win be far more likely if a a Harvey was pitching and he had 5 runs of support opposed to 2???
With LESS run support aren't mistakes magnified and more pressure added?
If you have 5 outstanding pitchers, wouldn't defense be LESS important? If there is the occasional mistake in play, isn't the chances they'll get the next guy out much more likely then if they had less pitching?
Im really not trying to be flip. Has there ever been a study on this?
Because every "outstanding" pitcher is not a strikeout pitcher; some of them pitch to contact (ie, groundball pitchers, etc). Thus having fielders who can, you know, actually field the ball are key.
who could they have been plugged with?
That's what I interpret as patience. Some teams would force it because they need a SS. Signing Stephen Drew for 2 years 20M lat off-season would have been brutal.
that's the kind of thing I mean by being patient. Trading for Didi Gregorious if it cost deGrom, Thor, or other chip would have been brutal.
Being patient is probably the best for the long-term health of the franchise.
just my 2c, but like I said, this is year 5 of a 5 year plan (in my opinion), so results need to start being realized.
If a move with SEA doesn't happen I think both Drew and Lowrie will remain in the conversation if they're waiting out there in January, though I don't see Sandy being willing to go beyond 1 year (maybe a vesting 2nd year option for Lowrie).
The only team with a SS rumored available I could see possibly being intrigued by Mejia is Chicago because their bullpen was terrible last year and so far they've only added Duke. They are trying to compete this year so they're in no immediate rush to trade Ramirez, but that said Gee, Mejia, Tejada is package that could get them thinking since it would fill 2 holes at the expense of a 33 year old SS. Though that opens up a pretty big hole in the Mets BP.
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but rather something that always bothers me. Can somebody please explain to me why pitching and defense go together??
Wouldn't offense be much more important to a very good pitching staff then to have very good gloves opposed to just good gloves? Wouldn't a win be far more likely if a a Harvey was pitching and he had 5 runs of support opposed to 2???
With LESS run support aren't mistakes magnified and more pressure added?
If you have 5 outstanding pitchers, wouldn't defense be LESS important? If there is the occasional mistake in play, isn't the chances they'll get the next guy out much more likely then if they had less pitching?
Im really not trying to be flip. Has there ever been a study on this?
Because every "outstanding" pitcher is not a strikeout pitcher; some of them pitch to contact (ie, groundball pitchers, etc). Thus having fielders who can, you know, actually field the ball are key.
You clearly missed my entire point. Obviously great defensive players are better than good defensive players and good defensive players are better then average defensive players. In a perfect world every team would like 8 gold glovers. In reality however, the true two way players in the league are what we call super stars. The rest are either one or the other. My question is, what is MORE important to an excellent pitching staff? Gold glovers at every position or run support? I honestly don't know the answer. Im guessing its the offense but I'd love to see some actual data on it.
And as to your comment that had nothing to do with what I was saying. The Mets are building a power pitching high strikeout staff anyway.
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not in panic mode doesn't seem like a vote of confidence, or maybe I'm just reading into his words too much.
either way I think the fans would like to see Flores get a pro-longed look
Bob Nightengale ✔ @BNightengale
The Chicago #Whitesox are looming as the #frontrunner to acquire #Athletics ace Jeff Samardzija after the clubs engaged in serious talks
Bob Nightengale ✔ @BNightengale
The Chicago #Whitesox are looming as the #frontrunner to acquire #Athletics ace Jeff Samardzija after the clubs engaged in serious talks
Wow, Sox really going for it. Wonder what the A's are looking for in return, have to assume a SS?
I think more likely it's prospects. A's seemingly are rebuilding this season.
Sale, Quintana (easily one of the top 10 most underrated SP in baseball), Samardizja + the impact of Rodon second half... White Sox could surprise this year.
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in return for Samardja. Real interesting offseason for Oakland.
I think more likely it's prospects. A's seemingly are rebuilding this season.
Sale, Quintana (easily one of the top 10 most underrated SP in baseball), Samardizja + the impact of Rodon second half... White Sox could surprise this year.
IDK, then why sign Butler? Why not get more of a prospect centerpiece than Lowrie for Donaldson? I think Beane's doing a half rebuild to recoup some of the prospects he dealt last year while still trying to field a good team.
I don't know anything about the White Sox system but if it is more of a prospect package, wouldn't Rondon be a likely candidate to return?
So I guess maybe not on Alexei Ramirez...
Don't see why they'd trade Samardja now unless it's a big overpayment though. They gave up a huge prospect to get him in season last year, if I were them I'd hold out for the same until the last possible moment (gotta think his value could go higher in season again?).
Rubin said he's hearing the Mets are iffy on Kang at SS.
Not comparing Moss/Murphy, but if that's all the Mets got back for Murphy I'd be pretty underwhelmed.
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be lying if I knew anything about Wendle beyond the numbers but on paper nice deal for Cleveland.
Not comparing Moss/Murphy, but if that's all the Mets got back for Murphy I'd be pretty underwhelmed.
I'd actually be furious if that's all they got because Murphy with a year resembling his 2014 would be worthy of offering the QO (and he would likely decline it) in favor of a multiple year deal. The more I think about it the more I think Murphy ends up wit less money than people think unless a team views him as a 3b because there simply aren't a ton of spots open at 2b around the league
-Astros, Red Sox, Tigers, Mariners, Twins, Indians, Phillies, Diamondbacks (Hill makes big money through 2016), Dodgers, Pirates (and a few others already "out") before we even get a Blue Jay, Padre, Giants situation where they have young guys they likely roll with. I could see the Murphy market (at least at 2b) being very limited. In his favor is Kendrick is the only other "good" 2b who is projected to hit the market next year.
Someone floated Murphy for Affeldt. For the 2015 Mets maybe it makes some sense but beyond that it really doesn't. If I'm the Giants I'd deal for Murphy (vs. signing Headley) and put the money toward Lester. Giants system is pretty "meh" on paper but I'm sure I could find a realistic deal to my liking lol
Yeah it's to clear salary (though Wendle apparently has been compared to Murphy) in terms of upside and the A's tend to do well with these grinder types. That said I still like it a lot for the Indians. Power isn't so easy to find. Beane seemingly has identified a market inefficiency loading up on flawed power guys and then spinning them.
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Nimmo was one of the best players in the Florida State League during the first half of the 2014 season. He struggled after a midseason promotion to the Eastern League, but much of that decline could be attributed to less luck when he put the ball in playhis power numbers and strikeout rate were roughly in line with what he did in the Florida State League, but he went from hitting .401 when he put the ball in play in the FSL to posting a .283 BABIP in the EL.
Nimmo has made significant strides in the past two years by adding strength. He now can sting the ball when he works himself into hitters counts, and he has the knowledge of the strike zone to get into those hitter counts. He might not ever have enough power to fit as a profile corner outfielder, but hes shown scouts that he should be able to stick in center field, where his on-base skills and gap power both would play well.
As far as an ETA, Nimmo could put himself in position for a call-up to New York with a strong first half. Hes not going to push Juan Lagares out of center field, but he could play left field in the short term. His arm wont really play in center field.
Long term, he does look to be a top-of-the-order hitter, although one who could grow into a middle-of-the-lineup role as he continues to mature and gain strength.
Yeah both Toby and Brender are good. I didn't like the changes to Toby's site but it sounds like they were sort of forced upon him. I liked the forum feature ala BBI.
No interest in Wheeler or deGrom for Ramirez. Value may be right (who knows) but Mets dont need a "last piece" type trade an that is what it would be. Plus, who knows whether all our young stud pitchers will pan out -- would hate to bail on Wheeler and then it turns out that Harvey is diminished and deGrom was a flash in the pan.
No interest in Wheeler or deGrom for Ramirez. Value may be right (who knows) but Mets dont need a "last piece" type trade an that is what it would be. Plus, who knows whether all our young stud pitchers will pan out -- would hate to bail on Wheeler and then it turns out that Harvey is diminished and deGrom was a flash in the pan.
"No interest in Wheeler or deGrom for Ramirez. Value may be right (who knows) but Mets dont need a "last piece" type trade an that is what it would be."
100% on the ball. This is probably a "fair" deal but not one the Mets should ever consider. Maybe a year from now Harvey is 100% back, deGrom, Wheeler, Syndergaard and Matz are all really good and you make a deal like that for a "last piece" but not here, not now.
Mixed signals overall from #Rockies on Tulo. Word from owners meetings was not available, but they were curious about #mets today.
It's a massive risk, but I'd do Tulo for Thor. They'd obviously have to dump Murphy and Colon elsewhere to clear $, but I'd still do it without a second thought. Put Flores at 2nd to start the year, if Tulo gets hurt you have Tejada on the bench for a short term, or you could shift Flores to SS and call-up Herrera. Reynolds also another option.
If there's 1 team out there that can take the risk, having both the depth of prospect assets to get him and some decent internal fallback options to offset injury risk, it's this team.
1.Lagares 2.Granderson 3.Tulo 4.Wright 5.Duda 6.Cuddyer 7.TdA 8.Flores - that would be one hell of a lineup.
Also Francesa just said he heard they are interested in "the Cuban SS". Not sure if he meant Moncada or if he was misspeaking and meant the Kang report?
SS is just insanely weak. 2 seasons
Ramirez 5th in fWAR at SS
Hardy just got 3 for 40 after 6.8 WAR the last 2 (including a down 2014), Ramirez is due 1 for 10, or 2 for 20 if they pick up his option.
Ramirez on the open market likely pulls about 4 for 50
I would. Tulo is absolutely a major risk but he's a GREAT player (including defensively which should mean he ages well in terms of value). Tulo would be like adding Piazza again. It would excite the fanbase, it would make them instant playoff contenders, it would improve the on field product and quite honestly would give them trade options with 2 of Murphy/Herrera/Flores being trade bait going forward.
I like Thor a ton but pitchers get hurt, pitching is easier to find in todays game and I think it's time to have some balls. In todays market Nimmo being a league average or slightly better regular would be a pretty sweet deal, if that's "all" Thor is.. you can find/buy those kind of guys. I'm NOT saying Thor will only be that. I'm suggesting it's a gamble I'm willing to make.
I would deal any 2 Mets prospects currently in the minors for Tulo.
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could be the centerpiece of a package for Tulo but we'd have to give up at least one other good piece.
I would deal any 2 Mets prospects currently in the minors for Tulo.
Thor and Matz for Tulo? Would CO seriously think about it?
Adam Rubin is an Islander fan and he actually made this point a couple days ago and he's exactly right. The Mets need to make their Boychuk/Leddy moves. The NHL is obviously a very different beast, but if you look at the Islanders their roster has been pretty similar for 2-3 years. Then one day they traded for 2 guys in their prime at a position of need with winning pedigrees. I don't think either has ever been an all star, but it completely energized both the fanbase and team to start the season the way they have. Hopefully the Wilpons can find it within themselves to follow suit. Pretty sure Isles attendance is by far the highest it's been in over a decade too.
This...
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Sandy Alderson on #Mets payroll, currently around $100 million: "I don't expect it to go up too much, if at all." Says it may go down.
The problem is, Dan - he's played in 47, 126 and 91 games in the last three seasons. Not to mention he'll be 30 soon - it's not the like injury situation will magically get better...
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Anthony DiComo @AnthonyDiComo 3m3 minutes ago
Sandy Alderson on #Mets payroll, currently around $100 million: "I don't expect it to go up too much, if at all." Says it may go down.
He chooses not to spend!! He has room!!! Maybe not 150 but 110-120!!!
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Anthony DiComo @AnthonyDiComo 3m3 minutes ago
Sandy Alderson on #Mets payroll, currently around $100 million: "I don't expect it to go up too much, if at all." Says it may go down.
LOL - they play in the biggest market in the league, they their payroll may go DOWN, or best case stay the same?!?!
Holy crap!
66+ Parnell, Cuddyer, Gee, Tejada
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all rail against cost, or worst case... how about the upside to adding a superstar? The upside to Matt Harvey knowing his A++ defensive SS makes a diving stop, throws out the runner, Harvey pumping his fist in the air and pointing at Tulo as the crowd celebrates?
The problem is, Dan - he's played in 47, 126 and 91 games in the last three seasons. Not to mention he'll be 30 soon - it's not the like injury situation will magically get better...
If he doesn't have any lingering structural issues it could - more regular rest days, being on a team that's not going to be in last every year (hopefully), different training plan. Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery. Who would have thought Grant Hill would play more games in his age 34, 35, 36 seasons than any other 3 years of his career (missing only 3 games total)? Frank Gore had so many major knee injuries in college they wondered if he'd ever get drafted, and now in 10 years he's missed like 10 total games.
Whom? They could use any help? Are we really going to play this game again? They couldn't have used Miller? They couldn't use a SS? Their bench on paper is awful etc. You really think Sandy Alderson is choosing to limit spending at around 100 million? For what reason?
66+ Parnell, Cuddyer, Gee, Tejada
Baseball reference has them estimated at 98M so I don't think he's too far off, mostly just arbitration guys. Not nearly as bad as when they were pencil f'ing the Jason Bay money and Wright's deferred money and acting like that stuff included investing in the on-field team.
I don't want the Mets to spend for the sake of spending, you know they're in NY so they should spend. I think that's crap, but I want him to be able to spend if players are needed.
Sandy DOES NOT have a history of being thrifty, his A's teams were among the highest payrolls in MLB. It wasn't until the owner died and the new owner said to slash payroll (well you saw the movie/read the book probably - you know the history).
I don't want the Mets to spend for the sake of spending, you know they're in NY so they should spend. I think that's crap, but I want him to be able to spend if players are needed.
Sandy DOES NOT have a history of being thrifty, his A's teams were among the highest payrolls in MLB. It wasn't until the owner died and the new owner said to slash payroll (well you saw the movie/read the book probably - you know the history).
PJ,
I was being sarcastic. Some on here have made that claim.
"Mets hope to continue busy offseason at Meetings."
Please craft me an argument that supports the Mets have been "busy" so far this off-season. Thanks in advance.
Secondary SP market about to explode once Lester signs, sources say. Tons of names out there, offers being made.
12/8/14, 5:04 PM
Terry Collins on the #Mets starting SS: "I'm not gonna name Wilmer Flores just yet." Says job is up for grabs with Ruben Tejada
12/8/14, 5:04 PM
Terry Collins on the #Mets starting SS: "I'm not gonna name Wilmer Flores just yet." Says job is up for grabs with Ruben Tejada
It would be nice if the mgr and gm were on the same page. Collins is literally the dumbest manager in all of baseball. But some people dont give a shit who the manager is. Yeah, right.
He probably has a soft spot for Tejada because he himself was a mediocre short stop.
With this we are certainly on the same page with. Sandy won't allow it but goddamn it if Collins isn't so fucking dumb some times.
Well, maybe. We already know Tejada will show up to camp fat and lazy if he's not properly coddled.
On top of the clear evidence of that in and of itself Sandy has also said a million times publicly money is there if they absolutely need a player at the deadline, ect.
Does that mean we've had 100 million dollars we weren't spending. Christ sakes fuck no. But it does likely mean we've been operating with a little buffer(think 10-15 million) for the last couple years and that's all Ive ever said.
Is this for real? After the shit he pulled last year you honestly believe this?
That said.. didn't he say Parnell "is the closer" when he's healthy? So I guess that doesn't always work when we're talking about Collins.
Anyway, the quote didn't get me that crazy. I remember before ST last year there were some rumblings about Lagares not being the every day CF and everyone got nuts about the mere suggestion but he wound up being there anyway.
Unfortunately I want him off the team because of Collins. Gone. I want him never near a Mets uniform again.
The only way this offseason could be worse than flores is our opening Day SS. Is if Tejada is.
That said.. didn't he say Parnell "is the closer" when he's healthy? So I guess that doesn't always work when we're talking about Collins.
Anyway, the quote didn't get me that crazy. I remember before ST last year there were some rumblings about Lagares not being the every day CF and everyone got nuts about the mere suggestion but he wound up being there anyway.
Oh man. I might be having flashbacks to last year and over reacting but Collins did want to go with vets in the outfield opening day. He was over ruled by Sandy and was forced to start with Lagares (and Mejia in the rotation after wanting Dice K) Sandy went on air the day before the season started and said Lagares would be the starter after Collin was saying the contrary. He then was over ruled again in June when Flores was called up and Lagares had like weeks where he went cold and he benched Lagares 3 days in a row(Free Lagares). He was also over ruled a third time at the end of July when Sandy made him play Flores/MDD every day again.
The only way this offseason could be worse than flores is our opening Day SS. Is if Tejada is.
I immediately rescind my 88 wins and bring it down to 84-85 if Flores isn't the SS. lol
I'm not going to get wound up about it 2 months before pitchers and catchers even report.
Oh lets not forget Farnsworth and Valverde also who Collins would have rode until October unless Sandy released them!
I'm not going to get wound up about it 2 months before pitchers and catchers even report.
Yeah Im with you there. And Tejada will not be the starter. Im confident in that. Sandy is calling the shots and won't let him but it still drives me nuts that this guy is so stupid.
lol.
This is true because I get the feeling Sandy won't interfere if Collins choices are performing(Tejada started out ok) but as soon as Tejada started tanking he got involved. I also think the leash is a lot shorter going into this year. Sandy isn't going to mess around this year.
In regards to Lagares though Sandy did name Lagares and Mejia(in the rotation) starters and Collins was rumbling the opposite the day before. This happened a million times during the season too. lol. Tejada will play tomorrow(and then Flores was in there) while Terry squirmed. It literally was every other day.
Yeah this is my thinking as well. Collins though is a win now manager that is playing contract to contract. It almost makes sense for him to want to accumulate as much wins as possible no matter what and he probably figures the vets give him his best chance. He doesn't have time to develop players. Sandy on the other hand isn't going anywhere and has put a rebuild in effect for 4 years. Sandy knows playing Flores over Tejada is good for the future but Collins doesn't give a shit about that.
The only reason Collins is still here is because I think the front office likes what a puppet he is. They clearly overrule him and he does what they say. He doesn't make a stink in the media and keeps his mouth shut. That has value. A guy like Wally might tell them to all to fuck off if they treated him that way. That's the only thing I can think of.
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Boneheaded player decisions by taking a decision out of hands, you don't really have a manager worth keeping.
Yeah this is my thinking as well. Collins though is a win now manager that is playing contract to contract. It almost makes sense for him to want to accumulate as much wins as possible no matter what and he probably figures the vets give him his best chance. He doesn't have time to develop players. Sandy on the other hand isn't going anywhere and has put a rebuild in effect for 4 years. Sandy knows playing Flores over Tejada is good for the future but Collins doesn't give a shit about that.
The only reason Collins is still here is because I think the front office likes what a puppet he is. They clearly overrule him and he does what they say. He doesn't make a stink in the media and keeps his mouth shut. That has value. A guy like Wally might tell them to all to fuck off if they treated him that way. That's the only thing I can think of.
Collins has never developed players. He said (and acted) as much last season. Collins has always been in "win now" mode when he should have been developing players for the future seasons (now). I cant imagine they (FO and Collins) havent had this conversation over the past few seasons. The only thing they have guaranteed over the past couple of seasons is that Terry isnt going anywhere. Im sure they didnt expect this team to be in win-now mode the past couple of years but Terry has certainly acted like it. And then when he is finally FORCED to develop players, he cuts them down.
He's an awful manager and its shocking to hear the reports that players love playing for him. Its hard to believe and that certainly wasnt the case in Anaheim.
The front office let it leak that they were split about even retaining him for this season. They clearly don't love the guy. I agree with others they probably think he should get one chance with a real roster and he was here through the rebuild like everyone else but my god he better be fired if this team isn't competing for the playoffs this season.
The only reason Collins is still here is because I think the front office likes what a puppet he is. They clearly overrule him and he does what they say.
I dunno, to me a puppet is someone who you don't have to overrule, someone who does what you want them to do in the first place. IE, Art Howe in Oakland...
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The only reason Collins is still here is because I think the front office likes what a puppet he is. They clearly overrule him and he does what they say.
I dunno, to me a puppet is someone who you don't have to overrule, someone who does what you want them to do in the first place. IE, Art Howe in Oakland...
Well he does what they tell him when it comes down to it. Its not like he's opposing them. He just has the complete opposite mindset with what they and the organization needs to do. He could tell them no and make a stink in the media ect, but he doesn't. He just rumbles around and stews on postgames. lol
Now that we that settled....Guess I can just skip next season. Thanks!
Ah, screw it...this one comment bugged me a lot. But I stand by the rest of what I said. This was the biggest reason why mets fans hated him last season - and here we go again. Its like he's purposely trolling mets fans, lol.
It's annoying that he's even hinting at there being a chance of Tejada getting that job back but I'm just telling myself it's a way to keep both guys motivated. If I think anything else, I'll just get angry and it's too early to get angry about the Mets,
@MattEhalt
2 quick Mets notes: Can confirm Mets have interest in Jung-Ho Kang. Also, heard Mets interest in Breslow overblown. By no means leading FA.
Miller, who has been in his current role since 2013, is not at the Winter Meetings with the club
Rockies beat reporter Thomas Harding - ( New Window )
Well thats good for the Mets because he's easily the worst of the 6.
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
Please stop...this is just making me angry, lol.
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When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
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In comment 12024758 arcarsenal said:
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When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
arc, I can understand why you would feel that way. I feel the same. It's understandable because that is how they've operated for the past five years.
I know that ZG feels that there is a $10-$15 million buffer built into the budget (and he could be right for all we know) but they've shown no inclination to utilize that buffer...so I'll believe it when I see it. I'm on the side that tends to believe there is no buffer. But none of us fuckers truly know.
I just hope that our big power move wasn't Cuddyer.
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In comment 12024758 arcarsenal said:
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When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
That's cool but I don't think that's the case here. We simply have too many pitchers for not enough spots. Eventually we were going to have to start opening them. Im glad they are choosing to clear the lowest rated options opposed to the better options who are paid more. If they were really hamstrung, i would think they would be doing everything to get rid of Colon but that doesn't appear to be the case here. Just my opinion.
Robert Brender @robertbrender
31m 31 minutes ago
I'm in the media room talking to several folks. Hearing Rangers and #Mets in some heavy talks.
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
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In comment 12024774 ZGiants98 said:
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In comment 12024758 arcarsenal said:
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When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
arc, I can understand why you would feel that way. I feel the same. It's understandable because that is how they've operated for the past five years.
I know that ZG feels that there is a $10-$15 million buffer built into the budget (and he could be right for all we know) but they've shown no inclination to utilize that buffer...so I'll believe it when I see it. I'm on the side that tends to believe there is no buffer. But none of us fuckers truly know.
I just hope that our big power move wasn't Cuddyer.
I just don't get how people could assume whatever the payroll is for the year is EXACTLY the amount we were allowed to spend. Not trying to start anything but that makes almost no sense. We hit it right on the mark every time? Of course there's some room. Whether its 100 million or 10 thousand the team isn't flat broke at the start of every season. I highly doubt we were all getting punked when we were willing to offer 10 million to Drew and Balfour 12 million last year. Whatever. I give up. Its all good.
Mets, Rangers talking pitching, infielders - ( New Window )
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
That does not apply here. WE HAVE TO GET RID OF ONE. Or do you propose a 6 man rotation? Harvey, Wheeler, and legroom are locks, One of Gee, Neise, or Colon has to go.
Oh man will i be bummed if we trade Thor for Profar.
As reported earlier, Dillon Gee is #Mets player most likely to be traded.
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It's especially bad when you're a big market team. It would be like the Knicks selling 2nd round picks for cash to Memphis.
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
That does not apply here. WE HAVE TO GET RID OF ONE. Or do you propose a 6 man rotation? Harvey, Wheeler, and legroom are locks, One of Gee, Neise, or Colon has to go.
If I didn't get a good offer I'd bring all 6 to camp. I like what Colon brings in the clubhouse, but he's got no upside compared the other 5 (otherwise he'd be the obvious dump). I'm all for trading 1 of them, but i'm not dumping a 28 year old who proved he can pitch 200 innings to a 3.6 ERA for a AAAA player just cuz. Fair or unfair I'd let he and Colon battle it out for the 5th starter/long man and Matt Harvey caddy role. But I don't think that's going to be an issue, I think they will get something decent for him.
niese and Montero is probably the most id offer for profar
"Just before he was promoted to AAA, I asked Phil what the biggest difference was for him this year versus last, "Just not thinking so much." was his response. Just throw it to the catcher's mitt, big fella. A very smart dude who enjoys the quiet serenity of bow hunting in the offseason, Phil had to learn to turn off the noodle a bit and just trust his stuff, his catcher, and his defenders. Phil's biggest attribute is his size and now, his command. Nothing worse than a reliever who walks guys and Phil's numbers this year are back down to his career averages of about 3.5BB/9 (while he's averaging 12.2K/9). A FB that will sit 92-95, but that according to several opposing players I've spoken with over the years "looks 95-98" is his most reliable weapon. He gets massive extension and drive from his mechanics and the ball simply jumps on hitters. He'll use the FB to set up a very good slider, that usually comes in around 82-84mph. He'll mix in a few 88mph cutters from time to time as well, but he's essentially a FB/SL guy who uses a bit of deception and a whole lot of his massive frame to give hitters a unique look. "
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But if the price is Thor+, I wouldn't do it.
niese and Montero is probably the most id offer for profar
And the phone hangs up. Daniels isn't going to sell low. What's the purpose?
#Mets not really eyeing big league talent for Dillon Gee, despite their needs in bullpen, bench. Salary, roster relief is the main thing.
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In comment 12024820 arcarsenal said:
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But if the price is Thor+, I wouldn't do it.
niese and Montero is probably the most id offer for profar
And the phone hangs up. Daniels isn't going to sell low. What's the purpose?
only way id move synderguuard would be getting a second piece not stud level with profar then
I'm not saying they'd fill an open hole, just that I wouldn't give up something for nothing over 5M bucks. I'd rather bring Gee to camp than spend 2-4M on a 1 year deal for an underwhelming 30 something relief pitcher.
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of agree with that if you didn't already have another player in Montero able to do the same thing you just described who probably will. Oh yeah and Thor and Syndergaard weeks behind him.
I'm not saying they'd fill an open hole, just that I wouldn't give up something for nothing over 5M bucks. I'd rather bring Gee to camp than spend 2-4M on a 1 year deal for an underwhelming 30 something relief pitcher.
Im sure SOMETHING will be coming back but I doubt the return is anything significant. I'd be be fine with an interesting prospect in single A or two.
without a doubt. Thor plus premium prospects, not sure.
Profar is a power hitting SS. They don't come along very often.
dude hit 14 HR's as a 19 year old SS in AA.
as a 2b or 3B i'm less inclined to deal Thor, but I'd trade them Montero+
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In comment 12024786 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 12024774 ZGiants98 said:
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In comment 12024758 arcarsenal said:
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When are we going to stop operating like a Fisher Price team?
I think what that means is that his value is so low the only thing we are really getting back is salary relief. We are not actively looking to get rid of Gee BECAUSE of his salary. He actually makes the least of the three(Colon, Neise, Gee)
It's just the fact that every time you hear that we're going to move someone, it seems like salary relief is the main objective. It makes me extremely wary of this teams financial situation.
I'd just like to see a day where we don't need "relief" from contracts that small. It should be inconsequential.
I know Dillon Gee isn't fetching a great prospect on the market. I just get irritated when I feel like every move the Mets make seems to be motivated by keeping payroll as low as possible.
arc, I can understand why you would feel that way. I feel the same. It's understandable because that is how they've operated for the past five years.
I know that ZG feels that there is a $10-$15 million buffer built into the budget (and he could be right for all we know) but they've shown no inclination to utilize that buffer...so I'll believe it when I see it. I'm on the side that tends to believe there is no buffer. But none of us fuckers truly know.
I just hope that our big power move wasn't Cuddyer.
I just don't get how people could assume whatever the payroll is for the year is EXACTLY the amount we were allowed to spend. Not trying to start anything but that makes almost no sense. We hit it right on the mark every time? Of course there's some room. Whether its 100 million or 10 thousand the team isn't flat broke at the start of every season. I highly doubt we were all getting punked when we were willing to offer 10 million to Drew and Balfour 12 million last year. Whatever. I give up. Its all good.
On the contrary, I think it makes perfect sense. The only constant this team has had over the past five years (aside from inexplicably giving Collins the key to the city) is to slash payroll and keep it low. Of course it's not going to be the same, on the button, every season. That's why they slash so much so they can only spend a little over what the originally were at, if at all.
2015 - $97 Mill (projected as of now)
2014 - $85 Mill
2013 - $93 Mill
2012 - $94 Mill
Aside from last season (which was much lower) that's pretty damn close over 4 years. I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that after the Granderson signing, they would shy away from the conversations with FA's or at the very least not be very aggressive. These guys know exactly what they need to pay to get these guys. Losing out on Balfour ($6 mill) because the didn't want to pay as much as the other team doesn't exactly give me the warm and fuzzies.
Again, I'm not trying to argue but I just have a different view than you. Recent history dictates that they don't/won't spend the money necessary to field a winning ballclub. Even when they don't have to trade away players/prospects to get that player. I'll believe it when I see it. And I'm okay with that.
without a doubt. Thor plus premium prospects, not sure.
Profar is a power hitting SS. They don't come along very often.
dude hit 14 HR's as a 19 year old SS in AA.
as a 2b or 3B i'm less inclined to deal Thor, but I'd trade them Montero+
He's a bigger question mark then Flores and you're down a future ace. No thank you.
consensus #1 prospect in all of baseball.
Still just 21 years old.
He is considered an above average defensive shortstop (not a "I won't panic if he's our starter" shortstop)
consensus #1 prospect in all of baseball.
Still just 21 years old.
He is considered an above average defensive shortstop (not a "I won't panic if he's our starter" shortstop)
He was a couple years ago, but his stock has fallen dramatically and he's been injured to boot. It has less to do with Flores and more to do with giving up Thor but carry on.
Most of what I'm reading is that the made an identical offer, not necessarily a higher offer. Plus, you are bidding against a team in Florida...with no state tax. But I'm sure they were aware of that, right?
But the Mets say it is not true. Mike Puma of the New York Post tweeted that a Mets official denies the team offered Grant Balfour more than the $12 million deal he received from Rays. Note it says more than in the Mets world of deceitful doublespeak, it could mean they offered exactly $12 million or less, but they do not want to admit that they, a team in New York, lost a player to crummy Tampa.
That article also touches on another topic, "the Mets world of deceitful doublespeak." It's one thing to say that you have (or like to have) payroll flexibility...it's another thing to show it.
link - ( New Window )
I'm told #Mets do like Jurickson Profar, but he would need to reestablish health first. And it's not like Dillon Gee gets that done anyway.
Yep, that's why I said if he checks out healthy in my post.
I would trade Thor
pjcas18 : 8:52 pm : link : reply
for Profar if Profar will remain at SS and if Profar is healthy......
Yeah exactly. And for Syndergaard? You better be getting back a sure thing.
And I don't know if there's any way we could make a move for him this offseason with him already having re-established his health and proving it's no longer an issue.
That's like saying the Mets have no incentive to trade Thor.
Of course they don't.
If I'm trading Thor I'm looking at guys like Profar, Bogaerts, or that age/potential.
and obviously for those who can read I said Profar would need to be healthy, but those are the players I'd easily deal Thor for.
Let's face it he has less major league experience than them and just as much if not more bust potential and in general a pitcher is less valuable than a good position player.
That's like saying the Mets have no incentive to trade Thor.
Of course they don't.
If I'm trading Thor I'm looking at guys like Profar, Bogaerts, or that age/potential.
and obviously for those who can read I said Profar would need to be healthy, but those are the players I'd easily deal Thor for.
Let's face it he has less major league experience than them and just as much if not more bust potential and in general a pitcher is less valuable than a good position player.
Selling low aka a guy coming off an entire missed year means you aren't getting a max return. If Syndergaard blows out his knee tomorrow and will be out all of 2015 what are the odds the Mets get a max return on him?
a better analogy would be the Mets trading Harvey now.
not perfect analogy since Harvey has a major league track record (brief, but he has it).
Just saying Profar being healthy is the first step.
Anyway, I'd trade Thor for Bogaerts similarly. I don't love Xander at SS, but the Sox have other options there and a need for pitching. I'd trade him for Mookie Betts too.
Who's arguing? No reason to get pissy about it. It's been widely reported that the offer was the same (if that) than the Rays offer...which isn't even really true given the lack of state tax in FL.
I can (and do) believe that the Mets offered Balfour a contract but I can also believe that they were less aggressive because of other signings (Granderson, Young). Either way, the possibility of adding $6 mill to a $85 mill payroll doesn't scream "payroll flexibility" to me, but whatevs. Of course, I could be wrong...and so could you. Neither of us are Sandy Alderson (or are you?). I certainly don't think it's stupid since this is they way they have operated for the past 5 years.
But again, we're just talking here. We can believe what we want to. I just choose to go by actual history rather than lip service.
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incentive is to improve their team.
That's like saying the Mets have no incentive to trade Thor.
Of course they don't.
If I'm trading Thor I'm looking at guys like Profar, Bogaerts, or that age/potential.
and obviously for those who can read I said Profar would need to be healthy, but those are the players I'd easily deal Thor for.
Let's face it he has less major league experience than them and just as much if not more bust potential and in general a pitcher is less valuable than a good position player.
Selling low aka a guy coming off an entire missed year means you aren't getting a max return. If Syndergaard blows out his knee tomorrow and will be out all of 2015 what are the odds the Mets get a max return on him?
better chance of getting max return on blown out knee vs elbow or shoulder
Meanwhile, I was also told the Mets don't think particularly highly of Luis Sardinas, a Texas infield prospect.
The Mets offered the same money as the Rays to Balfour. The Rays are a better team (last season not so much), no state tax, and Balfour's home state. Was there ever a chance in hell that he was going to the shitty Mets for the same contract? There's no way and I think the Mets knew that.
If you are looking for a $3,000 television and you can get it at PC Richard that's right down the street from you...but some shitty appliance store that's 4 hours away calls you and tells you that they can sell you the same TV for the same price...whatcha gonna do?
Yeah, maybe it's a crappy analogy, but same concept. Nobody want's to go to the shitty appliance store 4 hours away. Lol. I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore.
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It's especially bad when you're a big market team. It would be like the Knicks selling 2nd round picks for cash to Memphis.
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
That does not apply here. WE HAVE TO GET RID OF ONE. Or do you propose a 6 man rotation? Harvey, Wheeler, and legroom are locks, One of Gee, Neise, or Colon has to go.
Legroom, lol.
We just got to watch a season where the Yankees were trying to scrape guys out of a dumpster to pitch innings. Why sell just to sell? Injuries are inevitable.
I don't know all that much about him to be honest. I thought he was talented at one point. Id be happy just to get rid of Tejada I think though.
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In comment 12024803 Eric on Li said:
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It's especially bad when you're a big market team. It would be like the Knicks selling 2nd round picks for cash to Memphis.
I think Dan's read on the SS market is accurate. Only thing I'd add is what I said the other day re: Gregorious - which is that if the probability of any of those options panning out is really doubtful then they made a big mistake not trying to find a way to make the deal the Yankees made. Maybe Detroit loves Shane Greene, but very hard to see how Gee or Niese (plus more if nec.) couldn't have slid into that deal.
That does not apply here. WE HAVE TO GET RID OF ONE. Or do you propose a 6 man rotation? Harvey, Wheeler, and legroom are locks, One of Gee, Neise, or Colon has to go.
Legroom, lol.
We just got to watch a season where the Yankees were trying to scrape guys out of a dumpster to pitch innings. Why sell just to sell? Injuries are inevitable.
lol. My spell check does that deGrom all the time! WTF! my laptop and my phone. haha. I almost want to start calling him that it happens so often!!
Thanks.
Belief around baseball is that Noah Syndergaard is in play in trade talks for the #Mets.
The Mets offered the same money as the Rays to Balfour. The Rays are a better team (last season not so much), no state tax, and Balfour's home state. Was there ever a chance in hell that he was going to the shitty Mets for the same contract? There's no way and I think the Mets knew that.
If you are looking for a $3,000 television and you can get it at PC Richard that's right down the street from you...but some shitty appliance store that's 4 hours away calls you and tells you that they can sell you the same TV for the same price...whatcha gonna do?
Yeah, maybe it's a crappy analogy, but same concept. Nobody want's to go to the shitty appliance store 4 hours away. Lol. I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore.
lol alright my man. I got you.
Belief around baseball is that Noah Syndergaard is in play in trade talks for the #Mets.
that's probably why he'd only cost Syndergaard.
I wouldn't acquire him if he weren't healthy, but if he is, that's a potential lineup changing bat. Think Hanley Ramirez at 21 in the Mets lineup playing SS and a better defender.
if he's not healthy or if there are questions about his health you don't acquire him. Obviously.
3rd baseman coming
Exactly. Tulo is the perfect fit for this team in every way except 1 - money. If he didn't have an injury ? he might not even be available for Harvey right now. Could he get hurt? Yes. Just as any prospect might not pan out or get hurt themselves. Tulo's upside is as high as any move they could possibly make and one would hope they could do some things to try to minimize the injury risks.
Yeah of course. We are looking to trade a starter(Neise, Gee,or Colon) and possibly even Murphy at some point which of course would make it go lower.
however, Tulo in addition to costing Thor has a HUGE contract and is significantly older and his stats are probably Coors aided.
so, IMO Profar in some ways (IF HEALTHY) is more attractive.
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I'm blown away reading this. People are willing to give up Thor for Profar today, but earlier today wouldn't trade for Tulo because he is too much of an injury risk!?!?
Exactly. Tulo is the perfect fit for this team in every way except 1 - money. If he didn't have an injury ? he might not even be available for Harvey right now. Could he get hurt? Yes. Just as any prospect might not pan out or get hurt themselves. Tulo's upside is as high as any move they could possibly make and one would hope they could do some things to try to minimize the injury risks.
Money AND the ridiculous return Colorado thinks they can get for him too. They are asking for a king's ransom. deGrom, Wheeler, and more. They are fucking drunk.
I'm told #Mets do like Jurickson Profar, but he would need to reestablish health first. And it's not like Dillon Gee gets that done anyway
FYI Hanley Ramirez contract has 22M vesting option for his age 35 season. He's not a gold glove SS and he has not been the pillar of health either.
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In comment 12025015 Shecky said:
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I'm blown away reading this. People are willing to give up Thor for Profar today, but earlier today wouldn't trade for Tulo because he is too much of an injury risk!?!?
Exactly. Tulo is the perfect fit for this team in every way except 1 - money. If he didn't have an injury ? he might not even be available for Harvey right now. Could he get hurt? Yes. Just as any prospect might not pan out or get hurt themselves. Tulo's upside is as high as any move they could possibly make and one would hope they could do some things to try to minimize the injury risks.
Money AND the ridiculous return Colorado thinks they can get for him too. They are asking for a king's ransom. deGrom, Wheeler, and more. They are fucking drunk.
Where did you see anything on what they are asking for?
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 6m6 minutes ago
jeff samarzija is on the verge of being traded. the white sox are the likely landing spot. http://cbsprt.co/1Gc0GEP
What the hell is this guys obsession with him? I just don't get it.
And now they are replaying Shithead and Tejada. Fuck! There goes my blood pressure again. Feel like throwing furniture.
keep your top prospect and sign the Cuban SS who will just cost you money.
that would make too much sense, though.
What the hell is this guys obsession with him? I just don't get it.
Yup. He's dead serious too. Fuuuuuuuuuck!
FYI Hanley Ramirez contract has 22M vesting option for his age 35 season. He's not a gold glove SS and he has not been the pillar of health either.
My point was Profar would be a 21 year old Hanley Ramirez.
keep your top prospect and sign the Cuban SS who will just cost you money.
that would make too much sense, though.
most scouts think moncado wont stay at ss
What the hell is this guys obsession with him? I just don't get it.
Lol, you got to it before I did. The reporter tells Terry that Sandy said that Flores is the guy at SS and Terry said flat out NO. Then he went on slobbering all over Tejada's cock. He said that he's really impressed with Tejada, plays great defense, was great down the stretch, hit 5 HRs (WOW) and promised to be in the training facility in January.
Meanwhile, Flores was the better player, hit 6 HRs (in half as many plate appearances) and hasn't stopped training since the season end.
But Flores is Collins guy. UGH. Screw Collins. That was sickening.
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6 years / 114M (including a very reasonable 14M in the final year, his age 35 season). That's not counting the 7th year which is a team option w/ buyout.
FYI Hanley Ramirez contract has 22M vesting option for his age 35 season. He's not a gold glove SS and he has not been the pillar of health either.
My point was Profar would be a 21 year old Hanley Ramirez.
I get it, but even beyond the injury there's risk in that being a reality. Profar has huge potential but is far from a known commodity even when healthy.
Profar just missed an entire season due to an arm, that STILL isn't recovered. And has proven nothing in the majors.
Yup, Tulo is too risky... Even WITH all the games Tulo has missed, still the second highest WAR for a SS in the entire game the past three seasons. So let's assume he stays injury prone, I'll take the second best SS in all of baseball.
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In comment 12025025 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 12025015 Shecky said:
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I'm blown away reading this. People are willing to give up Thor for Profar today, but earlier today wouldn't trade for Tulo because he is too much of an injury risk!?!?
Exactly. Tulo is the perfect fit for this team in every way except 1 - money. If he didn't have an injury ? he might not even be available for Harvey right now. Could he get hurt? Yes. Just as any prospect might not pan out or get hurt themselves. Tulo's upside is as high as any move they could possibly make and one would hope they could do some things to try to minimize the injury risks.
Money AND the ridiculous return Colorado thinks they can get for him too. They are asking for a king's ransom. deGrom, Wheeler, and more. They are fucking drunk.
Where did you see anything on what they are asking for?
Martino? Ive heard they would want two of Thor, Syndergaard, and Wheeler AND expect us to pay the entire contract. All this for a guy in his 30's that can't stay healthy. I like Tulo but they can get the hell out of here.
Told nothing going on re: Mets-Rangers on a shortstop. The Mets like Profar, but his injury makes him a non option.
Told nothing going on re: Mets-Rangers on a shortstop. The Mets like Profar, but his injury makes him a non option.
sounds like if the mets hadn't solved ss by spring training maybe you revisit that
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I feel nauseous.
What the hell is this guys obsession with him? I just don't get it.
Lol, you got to it before I did. The reporter tells Terry that Sandy said that Flores is the guy at SS and Terry said flat out NO. Then he went on slobbering all over Tejada's cock. He said that he's really impressed with Tejada, plays great defense, was great down the stretch, hit 5 HRs (WOW) and promised to be in the training facility in January.
Meanwhile, Flores was the better player, hit 6 HRs (in half as many plate appearances) and hasn't stopped training since the season end.
But Flores is Collins guy. UGH. Screw Collins. That was sickening.
Well, we can at least agree that the Pens are a giant fucking cum stain at least.
Told Mets not high on Andrus and that they view Sardinas as more of a utility type, not long term solution at short.
WHATEVER
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Yeah. From Twitter it seemed like it got hot there for a minute and the teams were locked in but it might have fizzled out. Im glad. I don't want to trade Syndergaard for any player on Texas. They can take Gee if they like.
that doesn't sound like engaged in talks, it sounds like a bad match to me.
that doesn't sound like engaged in talks, it sounds like a bad match to me.
Yeah well of course they aren't still engaged. We just watched Sandy live on TV. lol. But yeah I got you. Who knows. It could pick up again tomorrow.
Not trying to rile up ZGiants but the writers are all implying the money is an issue.
I just don't see us getting much of anything for him and that's why I don't like that the objective is just to clear his salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
The most intriguing thing that got floated out there tonight is the notion that they are listening on Thor. They've clearly shot down that they aren't interested in Profar, but I've yet to see any Mets beat writer find out that "Thor is untouchable".
343 minor league games... 5 homers 59 doubles
For comparisons sake
Tejada in the minors .693 OPS 16 homers in 522 games 87 doubles
Tovar .661 OPS
For Gee or to dump Niese or Colon? Sure but I suspect he's a backup MI
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If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
it all comes down to the return. I just can't see us getting anything of value for him and I'd rather just stockpile the arms if the alternative is just a salary dump or some shitty D level prospect.
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If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Not trying to rile up ZGiants but the writers are all implying the money is an issue.
Yeah. Martino implied the Mets would likely want to shed his salary so they could add other pieces like an arm or a bench piece but I think it was mostly his opinion. Who knows. In the same piece he said MANY teams were interested in Gee today so who knows?
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If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
Yes. He's likely better than those guys. And certainly we don't have a million options in AAA capable of throwing 200 innings next year should the need arise due to injuries. But the point isn't whether he's better than them, the point is whether he's better than what he returns (which seems like it will be minimal). And of course you continue to not acknowledge that there's zero risk in keeping him. Literally zero.
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In comment 12025104 arcarsenal said:
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If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
it all comes down to the return. I just can't see us getting anything of value for him and I'd rather just stockpile the arms if the alternative is just a salary dump or some shitty D level prospect.
Agreed. Well lets see. Didn't seem with the amount of teams interested we were only going to get back a "D level" prospect.
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In comment 12025104 arcarsenal said:
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If he's getting ~5Mish I realize that's a lot to pay a guy for that role, but.. I'd rather that than just dump him to clear salary.
Because is Gee better than Montero in that role? Is Gee better than Torres, Black, Familia, Mejia? We have a million longman options in AAA. I just don't think throwing Gee in the bullpen makes any sense. Let's see what the return is. Apparently a lot of teams were interested especially in the NL. If its a complete "salary dump" after hearing that I actually will be mildly upset.
Yes. He's likely better than those guys. And certainly we don't have a million options in AAA capable of throwing 200 innings next year should the need arise due to injuries. But the point isn't whether he's better than them, the point is whether he's better than what he returns (which seems like it will be minimal). And of course you continue to not acknowledge that there's zero risk in keeping him. Literally zero.
Risk? He's a damn good backend pitcher. He deserves to be a starter. We don't have a spot and teams aren't interested. We don't really have a spot for him in the bullpen either. Whatever. Im not saying a word about this until he gets traded and we see what comes back.
Samardzia?
Even if a Samardzija deal is close to being finalized, it doesn't sound as if the #Athletics are planning to announce anything tonight.
Yeah. Exactly. Lets not forget Sandy rarely has gotten fleeced in any trades. Im sure he'll bring something interesting back.
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Reportedly touches 100
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=kela--000keo
"The New York Daily News reported that the Mets -- judged as the team best equipped to make an acceptable offer for Tulowitzki -- had turned down the Rockies' trade interest. Various reports indicated the Mets have serious concerns about what Tulowitzki's contract, which guarantees him $114 million through 2020, would do to their payroll. However, Bridich said the Rockies and Mets had not met formally."
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I've never seen a team so open about their concerns about payroll. It was really exciting to hear Sandy say yesterday that payroll could get lower by the time the season starts. I wonder what its like to have a big market team.
I've never seen a team so open about their concerns about payroll. It was really exciting to hear Sandy say yesterday that payroll could get lower by the time the season starts. I wonder what its like to have a big market team.
I made that comparison and I still feel it's apt. Before the off-season began I felt the White Sox and Mets were in similar spots, LaRoche and Cuddyer additions even added to that.
There is no indication that they will spend, or trade for a big contract. Psi is right.
Nobody yet! But Harvey and company will be free agents in a few years. Have to save up to afford at least one of them.
They're like the guy who live with his parents til he's 40, saving up for that dream house he never buys...but he DID get a good deal on a 1989 Chevy cavalier!!!
There is no indication that they will spend, or trade for a big contract. Psi is right.
I wont concede that the Mets NEED to be crafty. The revenue is there (when factoring SNY, which has below-market rights). The rest of the finances are funny-money. Are the Mets in a lot of debt? They'd need to open the books, and they wont do that since I suspect what they did was borrow against the Mets to fund the family's real estate business.
To pay off debt, I'd guess.
Then again, they may not be making a ton of money since nobody wants to see a bad baseball team lose games, and they won't spend any money to bring in players fans will pay to see.
Jose Reyes for one. Knocks out two major holes - leadoff and SS.
I'd have taken a gamble on Hanley Ramirez. He'd fill SS and middle of the order bat.
I agree it's counter-productive to spend for the sake of spending, but the lack of a plan at SS would concern me.
I've said it before this is year 5 of my self-imposed 5 year plan for Sandy. I feel as a fan I'm being generous allowing the GM 5 years to build a team. No SS is inexcusable (if there isn't one), so I'll wait to criticize, until after the season, but there were moves to be made if the cash was there, to pretend there wasn't is blind homerism.
How about being in on Moncada?
Except sources say both of those players are being shopped, both teams like what the Mets have, and the Mets aren't interested in either play due to their contracts.
Every report you hear this time of year is either BS or will be contradicted within 24 hours. BasebLls version of the NFL Draft - very entertaining time of the year ;)
I've noticed the opposite. Seems like there isn't much interest in 2b. The Blue Jays were one of the few exceptions and they added Travis. Yankees make some sense but they don't seem very interested. I don't see many spots for Murphy at all.
He's not good enough IMO for prospects and big $$$.
But Tulo I'd do in a second if the Mets could limit the prospect damage to just Thor.
Every report you hear this time of year is either BS or will be contradicted within 24 hours. BasebLls version of the NFL Draft - very entertaining time of the year ;)
I hope so, and if they make a big acquisition I'll be first in line to admit that I was wrong and applaud the move. On the flip side they seem to be preparing everyone for a stagnant payroll and more Flores/Tejada so it's probably best for all of us to not expect much more than that.
Eric sure, there are some possibilities but I don't see any reason to believe a huge Murphy market opens up. 2b is unusually loaded with either good players, guys making lots of money or young "top" prospects. On paper the Giants don't line up very well (don't have a SS to give up for one) but I'm sure they could find a deal if the Mets really wanted to move Murphy.
Nobody is asking the Mets to spend foolishly. Andrew Miller would have been an excellent bullpen piece. Jon Lester would dominate at Citi Field, and replacing the fifth starter's innings with Lester would make a huge difference. Neither Lester nor Miller cost draft compensation. Even somebody like Hanley Ramirez would be worth it, he'll probably play a better outfield than Cuddyer and he can play SS in emergency scenarios, like if Flores doesn't hit.
This year doesn't exist in a vacuum. When talent HAS been available, they have shied away from paying the money to get in.
In 2012 he injured his groin, re-aggravating the injury a few different times as it was originally misdiagnosed as a strain that turned out to be a buildup of scar tissue that had to be removed in an arthroscopic procedure (article below compares it to a sports hernia).
In 2014 this is obviously the biggest concern as the hip and groin injuries could be interrelated (and the labrum that he just had surgery on was even referenced in the 2012 article). Do the experts think this issue (and by extension the other leg/groin issues) are sound or are there still red flags? That's really the major question because the rest of the injuries in his history are more of the fluke variety that can happen to anyone (lacerated hand, broken wrist). A Rockies beat writer mentioned that they expect him to be ready for the beginning of Spring Training, but who knows.
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Dodgers and Padres still talking Kemp
Padres shopping their top 3 SP, strange to go for Kemp and then also shop the SP no?
How does Hanley not improve the Mets?
He'd be my SS, he played 115 games there. Eventually he'll move to the OF or 2B, but for 2015 a lineup of:
Lagares CF
Murphy 2B
Wright 3B
Hanley SS
Duda 1B
Cuddyer RF/LF
TDA C
Granderson LF/RF
P
add a bullpen arm and if the pitching pitches Mets aren't just wild card contenders they're legit contenders WITH bounce backs to career avg by Wright and Grandy.
Not saying Murphy brings in a huge haul. But trading him fills holes. He won't be given away for nothing.
Especially when the plan includes moving him to 2B or LF. Two positions the Mets have their four best hitting prospects coming up soon.
Not saying Murphy brings in a huge haul. But trading him fills holes. He won't be given away for nothing.
Where did anyone imply Murphy would only bring back some turd? Alexei Ramirez isn't a valid comp at all though. SS is insanely hard to fill and Ramirez is locked up for 2 years vs. Murphy's one. Ramirez brings back a ton more than Murphy. Ramirez last 2 seasons is top 5 in baseball in fWAR at SS.
Especially when the plan includes moving him to 2B or LF. Two positions the Mets have their four best hitting prospects coming up soon.
You can talk yourself out of any player if you dig deep enough.
Ruth is fat, drinks a lot, womanizes and eats too many hot dogs. He's going to break down quickly. Pass.
I mean, the IFA market is a pretty big example. We can't just leave that out of the discussion. It's known that typical free agency isn't very fruitful these days.
1B was a major questionmark coming into this season. They had Ike Davis and Duda, they chose to roll with Duda instead of even getting involved with Abreu. Duda had a season that validates what they did, so they lucked out, but they still waved away a chance at a highly regarded talent at a need position.
But your belief that they Mets are willing to spend but just dont see anything to spend it on (or will pay for the COL or TX SS) are just contradicted by the record. Sandy just made clear that payroll is capped. Is he a liar? If what he meant was "we'll got to $115 million for the right player" then why wouldnt he phrase things in a more open ended way? Do you think he is unnecessarily antagonizing the fans?
he can definitely play SS for at least two of them (he's only 30 years old).
And then if he gets moved off SS, the Mets are SUPPOSED to be a team that can deal with that annual 20M bloat if it comes to that.
not one that shrivels up and becomes non-competitive because of one bad contract.
but in my thinking he's a SS for 2015 and 2016 and fills a major hole and improves the team and look at someone like Soriano, he moved to the OF and struggled, but eventually became passable there.
this was the move to make IMO.
2014 124 games in the PCL and MLB 1 homer 26 doubles. For Gee? Yeah probably. Beyond that? No thank you.
The Mets are considering placing Matt Harvey on the disabled list during the summer if it helps extend his season into September and October.
Fatigue can manifest itself in ways that warrant a disabled list, Sandy Alderson recently explained to reporters. Well just have to see how he does.
Harvey is currently rehabbing from October 2013 Tommy John surgery, and has said he is on board with New Yorks plan to manage his innings next season.
The Mets have internally discussed a 7-day disabled list stint for resting pitchers, but have not petitioned MLB for the option, GM Sandy Alderson said (Rubin, Dec. 5).
the fact is the team needs to shred payroll to add payroll, and that's disgusting. adding an aging injury prone OF as your "move" is not improving a young team to contention.
the "answer" doesn't need to be a shortstop. It can be a potential impact 2B.. could've been an impact OFer.
so what does this team have?
1B who can't hit lefties
2B who rakes and they are trying to trade
SS who knows
3B coming off of an injury and a horid year
RF for 3 more years who has had averaged .230 in the past 3 years with 140+ks and .320 OBP
CF.. finally a bright spot!
LF who will be 36 at spring training..Games Played past 4 years: 139, 101, 130, 49. He can rake...when he plays
C - hopefully we get Jeckyll and not Hyde moving forward
SP - excellent
BP - could be very good
The pitching will have to carry this team. Obviously. And if Wright doesn't "come back", it's going to be a long year. There's NO reason to believe that Granderson will revert to his stats when he played at Yankee Stadium where a pop up was a HR.
Where can they improve? OF is now set, like it or not. 3B/1B is set. Middle infield is the only fix.. and they won't even bid on who MAY be a star 2b/SS from Cuba
The Mets are considering placing Matt Harvey on the disabled list during the summer if it helps extend his season into September and October.
Fatigue can manifest itself in ways that warrant a disabled list, Sandy Alderson recently explained to reporters. Well just have to see how he does.
Harvey is currently rehabbing from October 2013 Tommy John surgery, and has said he is on board with New Yorks plan to manage his innings next season.
The Mets have internally discussed a 7-day disabled list stint for resting pitchers, but have not petitioned MLB for the option, GM Sandy Alderson said (Rubin, Dec. 5).
the red sox were notorious for this
Especially with the young guys.
1) They want a guy that can throw 175 innings, someone that can be a number three starter.
2) They like Dillon Gee, who lives an hour away from their ballpark.
3) They talked with the Padres about acquiring Tyson Ross, who is their favorite.
4) They are seeing a lot of interest in Jurickson Profar, but interested teams say the asking price is too high given his recent injuries.
5) Profar may start throwing again in January, but hes yet to have consistent stability in his shoulder, which may or may not need surgery and is in need of being stronger.
6) They prefer to to keep Elvis Andrus, especially after coming off a down year.
Signing Hanley. He hasn't been a good SS in a while. Sox are already moving him off the position. Not looking for a "passable" fielder from a guy who has been known to be a pain in the ass. $22m/yr and a draft pick is a lot considering the Mets payroll reality.
Speaking of payroll. We know they CAN spend more. sandy has no incentive to tell the world what his true budget or ceiling is. And most importantly, if you shed Colon and Murphy's salary, never mind the return, wouldn't payroll be at $100 if they also acquired a star SS? Or lower depending on who they got? That's kind of a key here..
Signing Hanley. He hasn't been a good SS in a while. Sox are already moving him off the position. Not looking for a "passable" fielder from a guy who has been known to be a pain in the ass. $22m/yr and a draft pick is a lot considering the Mets payroll reality.
Speaking of payroll. We know they CAN spend more. sandy has no incentive to tell the world what his true budget or ceiling is. And most importantly, if you shed Colon and Murphy's salary, never mind the return, wouldn't payroll be at $100 if they also acquired a star SS? Or lower depending on who they got? That's kind of a key here..
Daniel Murphy has significantly less value than Ramirez. If you feel otherwise I don't know what to tell you but you are wrong. Not trying to be a dick but it's not very close.
Braves have an opening
White Sox have an opening but also have a top 2b prospect
Yankees have an opening but have a very good 2b prospect
A's have an opening but are tearing it down
Colorado has an opening
That's about it on paper
"As I profiled back in November, Toritani has had a very successful eleven-year career with the Hanshin Tigers. The winner of a great deal of hardware, including Best-Nine and Golden Glove Awards, the Hamura native is a career .285/.372/.412 hitter. Perhaps more important than his actual numbers, he is a smart hitter. According to Yakult Swallows pitcher Tony Barnette, "As a pitcher, you try to mix it up with him. He's a smart hitter who will pick up a pattern. When I face him, I try to give him the best I have to offer and, once I release the ball, I hope he gets himself out. Hitters like him rarely get beat by pitchers. The reason he gets out is because he mis-hits the ball.""
Oh, enough already with this typical response to any discussion around spending. I expected this type of response the second we started talking about it. Show me where anybody is saying they should spend for the sake of spending? The point is that they are NEVER in on intl FAs and get scared off big time players because of their contracts (which some arent even that bad). At some point, you will need to pay for good players to complement what you have built. Otherwise the Mets will always be a fringe level type of team. Hell, they offered Balfour a contract where he would have earned LESS than what the Rays were offering him. Uncanny.
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I've already agreed on IFAs, so not sure why that's brought up. But who are the big stars the mets legitky missed that would have turned the team around? I'm frustrated by the lack of spending like everyone, but it's not like we missed Trout in a trade due to a contract.
I've already agreed on IFAs, so not sure why that's brought up. But who are the big stars the mets legitky missed that would have turned the team around? I'm frustrated by the lack of spending like everyone, but it's not like we missed Trout in a trade due to a contract.
My point with Balfour is that the Mets essentially offered him less money tocome play for the Mets.
And there are plenty of players, whether through FA or trade, that the Mets could have used but they are rarely, if ever, in on them. It doesn't have to be just the superstars like trout or stanton.
I have no clue how you can say Hanley Ramirez wouldn't improve the Mets. Jon Lester wouldn't improve the Mets, Andrew Miller, David Robertson, Max Scherzer, Nelson Cruz, Yasmany Tomas, wouldn't all improve the Mets.
All of them make the Mets better in 2015.
Not sure what your point is, yes 100% the Mets could have signed players to improve their team and they did not.
It isn't really even debatable.
Big players or little, which game changer did they miss out on?
You seem upset.
The issue is - and always has been - is the Mets (Wilpon) keep claiming that Madoff is not impacting their spending (remember the press conference where Wilpon infamously took out a wad of money from his pocket?). Wilpon came out and said he will spend once they start winning; of course, that's the complete wrong way to go about it....
So, by Wilpon's own admisstion, they CAN spend money, but are choosing not to. THAT is what's infuriating. And we are reminded of that as they pass on guys that can help immediately, like Hanley, Lester, Miller, etc, etc, etc,
Big players or little, which game changer did they miss out on?
You keep asking, I keep answering, you keep pretending the answer isn't staring you in the face and asking the same question again. This is just this off-season. Last year there was Abreu, Ellsbury, Marlon Byrd, Robbie Cano, Phil Hughes, etc.
seems logical.
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The paroll is around 100 million dollars. Fucking get over it. We spent like drunkin sailers for years and it got us nowhere. We can't spend because of Madoff . Until we start winning we aren't going to go substantially higher. Get over it. Deal with it. It is what it is. Are we just going to cry and cry and cry about it forever. 95 percent of the teams in baseball might like to add a Tulo too but probably can't. Tough shit. I'm focused on what is changing on the team and that is real talent and a team expected to challenge for the playoffs this year.
The issue is - and always has been - is the Mets (Wilpon) keep claiming that Madoff is not impacting their spending (remember the press conference where Wilpon infamously took out a wad of money from his pocket?). Wilpon came out and said he will spend once they start winning; of course, that's the complete wrong way to go about it....
So, by Wilpon's own admisstion, they CAN spend money, but are choosing not to. THAT is what's infuriating. And we are reminded of that as they pass on guys that can help immediately, like Hanley, Lester, Miller, etc, etc, etc,
Oh, and if they really can spend money like Wilpson claims they can (only once they get a winner, according to him), then they wouldn't have to "salary dump" a guy like Gee, who is making a paltry $5 million which, in today's MLB is pretty much chicken feed...
And why aren't they? They only play in the biggest fucking market in MLB..
Are they spending only $100 million because they can't (due to Madoff), or because Wilpon only wants to spend on a "winner"?
"MIGHT BE A LITTLE LOWER, MIGHT BE AT THAT LEVEL", ALDERSON SAID of the $100M NUMBER. "I DON'T EXPECT IT TO GO UP TOO MUCH, IF AT ALL"
so yah... where is he going to spend a ton of cash???
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/09/sports/baseball/alderson-makes-it-clear-mets-wont-spend-a-bundle-this-winter.html
You're missing the point on Gee - they are TRYING to salary dump him; whether or not they are successful is irrelevant.
Even with arbitration, Parnell is a pretty cheap insurance policy. They should have dumped him and gotten a guy like Miller. But no, they refuse to spend.
And stop with the hyperbole - of COURSE they are not broke! They only play in the biggest market and are what, 12th in payroll?
It's one thing to focus on the games and shelve payroll talk during the season, but this is winter meetings and it's frustrating seeing the Mets not even have a chance to get the best players.
Ramirez is a better all around SS then anyone they have on the roster right now. And Miller has done more than Parnell ever has.
Ok.
Again, you are missing the point; they don't HAVE to artificially keep payroll at something so ludicrously low (for a NY based team) as 110 - they are choosing to, which is what infuriates every Mets fan. Well, every fan except for you, apparently...
That's completely fine with me (and not unfair). Flores could reasonably have a shot at matching or bettering Murphy's production at a minimum price (plus Herrera and Reynolds are options in AAA).
And trading Gee/Murphy to replenish some of the prospects lost in a Tulo trade makes sense considering neither are likely to receive long term contracts here under any circumstances.
I would say the vast majority of the fans are frankly offended by this stance which seems to be shortsighted and hypocritical at best. Zgiants I understand you tend to take a positive outlook which is refreshing but to simply accept that what the Wilpons have done over the last 6 years is at all acceptable is just not going to happen. We all get the payroll is going to be 100 million(frankly I bet it opens up around 95), but the point is it should be much higher and that is something that will always piss off fans.
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And his offensive numbers would dwarf any SS currently on the Mets roster
This one sentence sums it up perfectly. And yet Z tries to justify what the Wilpons are doing...
LOL, can you describe for me what that means in terms of on-field production?
Jose Reyes was 7th worst, Andrus 8th worst.
I'll take the 2nd worst when he's by far the best qualified offensive SS (Tulo didn't qualify) in the game on a team that needs offense.
and overall tied for 5th best SS in the game.
Did you watch Hanley play SS at all or are you just quoting stats you don't understand. You come across as pretty clueless here. Flore is pretty much a Hanley clone defensively, if that.
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The mets entered last year 22nd out of 30 teams in payroll. Yet despite that they are generally valued around 4th by Forbes.
This one sentence sums it up perfectly. And yet Z tries to justify what the Wilpons are doing...
Oh yes that's clearly what I'm doing. Defending the Wilpons...lol
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Flores is Rey Ordonez compared to Hanley defensively at this point in his life.
Did you watch Hanley play SS at all or are you just quoting stats you don't understand. You come across as pretty clueless here. Flore is pretty much a Hanley clone defensively, if that.
What's even stranger is that earlier in this thread he was saying that the Mets should have less of a need for defense, since the pitching staff they have (or will have soon, with Thor, etc) is a strikeout staff.
You would think that he'd be OK with a defensively weak SS who can hit.
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Oh yes that's clearly what I'm doing. Defending the Wilpons...lol
Congrats on finally realizing it!
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Flores is Rey Ordonez compared to Hanley defensively at this point in his life.
Did you watch Hanley play SS at all or are you just quoting stats you don't understand. You come across as pretty clueless here. Flore is pretty much a Hanley clone defensively, if that.
Dude. I'm clueless? UZR, dWAR, look at whatever you want? Hanley Ramirez was epic bad last year and every team in baseball has acknowledged he no longer can play there. Flores was 10th in UZR once he qualified out of 64 players!! Ramirez was 63! Are you insane?
They already have for the most part. Nobody who has any dealings with Jeffy come away unscathed.
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In comment 12025849 ZGiants98 said:
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Flores is Rey Ordonez compared to Hanley defensively at this point in his life.
Did you watch Hanley play SS at all or are you just quoting stats you don't understand. You come across as pretty clueless here. Flore is pretty much a Hanley clone defensively, if that.
What's even stranger is that earlier in this thread he was saying that the Mets should have less of a need for defense, since the pitching staff they have (or will have soon, with Thor, etc) is a strikeout staff.
You would think that he'd be OK with a defensively weak SS who can hit.
No actually I didn't. I said I wonder if they ever have done a study about whether or not run support or gold glovers is more valuable but I wasn't considering an absolute butcher. Should we move Duda at SS? He sure would put up sweet numbers there!!!
So your specific detailed list of players the Mets missed out due to money is a list of free agents from the past two years? And not the busts like Choo, Beltran, etc?
Not sure why you keep bringing up IFA guys, when I couldn't be more clear I agree they should have been more aggressive there. So let's scratch off the Tomas, Abreu and Tanaka's from the list
Did the Mets really lose Byrd and Hughes due to moeny? When they signed guys who play the exact same position to more expensive contracts? So let's cross Byrd and Hughes off the list.
Name the deepest position on the Mets? Pitching? So they should pay 7/$175 for Scherzer and Lester when long time SP deals have historically never worked out? Or the big money to bullpen that most teams avoid, especially when you are overflowing with young bullpen arms. Can't have your cake and eat it - sign one of those guys but then you arent allowed to bitch about the lack of offense next year since you can't sign a hitter or two. Enjoy Tejada at SS lol
Cano and Ellsbury? Seriously? You want to have the Mets hand out 10 year deals now? Why leave Choo out of the conversation - imagine that mistake? But let's say the Mets signed them both. Legares and Murphy to the bench I guess? So you spent $46mm instead of $6mm. Went from 6.6 WAR to 8.8 WAR. Congrats, you just broke a world record and spent $20mm/WAR. Still miss the playoffs with a 79 win team... I'll even throw in a Cruz signing (why would the Mets sign a DH anyway?) Another 4 wins. YEAH - we were over .500 with 83 wins... But you have to remove Conforto, Ramos, etc from the minors since we lost the draft picks.
Also, dismissing the lack of IFA signings makes no sense because it's a large part of the problem. The fact that you agree with it isn't relevant.
your question was simple.
You asked what FA's did the Mets not sign who would have improved the team.
It's a simple question and I provided a simple answer.
I wasn't advocating the signing of anyone. simply answering a question.
If you don't think Cano would have made the Mets better last year, and Ellsbury last year, etc. you know very little about baseball. Of course they would have.
And signing Lester this year? Sure, the Mets don't need Lester.
But which rotation is better?
Harvey
Wheeler
DeGrom
Lester
Colon/Niese/Gee
Or
Harvey
Wheeler
deGrom
Colon
Niese/Gee
Again, if you don't know the answer to that question you know little about baseball.
Profar has elected, with the clubs blessing, to try a different rehab regime, which requires physical therapy and exercises to build up the shoulder muscle to stabilize it and prevent surgery.
Obviously, the setback will prevent Profar from playing winter ball and could delay his return to the major league roster in the spring.
Well see, Daniels said. Thats getting way ahead of ourselves. I wouldnt even venture a guess. I want to get him healthy right now. If hes healthy and hes on the roster then hell be in competition for a spot. Thats probably two or three steps beyond where we are right now.
For now, Profar hopes an alternate rehab approach speeds his return to throwing.
At some point in the off-season hell start a throwing program again, Daniels said. Were going to wait until he gets a clean MRI, which may be three months, it may be sooner. Its really going to depend on when the MRI is completely clean, then hell start throwing at that point.
Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/09/23/6143785/profars-return-from-shoulder-injury.html#storylink=cpy
My apologies on making an assumption.
My question was, were the Mets on the verge of acquiring Stanton but backed out due to money? Trout? Price? Tulo? Ellsbury? Cano? No, none of them.
Would the Mets be better with Cano and Ellsbury last year. I think I answered that. 2.2 wins better. Almost would have gotten us to .500. Sucks that in a couple years we would be saddled with their contracts and minus Conforto and Ramos, but I would always fondly look back at the season to remember, the 2014 almost .500 Mets.
Better with Lester? Of course, name me one team in all of baseball that would be worse with him in 2015. But do I give up a pick and tie up 7/$175mmm into him when we are already overflowing with pitching? Thanks but no thanks, there are only so many 1-0 Lester losses I would be able to take.
So I have to argue against a lack of IFA aggressiveness, when I believe they should have been? Sorry - I can't do that :)
Hopefully it changes soon.
if that were the case, add up the WAR of all the Mets players and they're what a 30 win team?
second of all why would you assume Ellsbury means no Lagares. When clearly it makes a lot more sense for Ellsbury to mean no Chris Young.
If the Mets added Ellsbury, Cano, and Jon Lester this is a World Series contender and the payroll is 135M (because I subtract Cuddyer, Murphy, Gee, and maybe a couple more.
now to be clear, I am not suggesting to do this, but when you try and play the "what players could the Mets have signed that would have improved them?" game you come across as an ownership ball washer.
there were many, many players that could have been added and improved the Mets.
I understand the sentiment that us constantly griping about the Wilpons isn't productive but it's honestly hard to have a conversation about what the 2015 mets could be without the fan bases anger towards the Wilpons come out. I know cano is an extreme example but if you subtract Murphy and pencil in cano it's probably a difference of 15 million per but this lineup would be much scarier. Also since cano is a fairly elite defender shithead Collins may actually agree to play Flores at ss instead of trolling us with tejada threats.
I'll drop it at this point, because you are the only one fighting the fight. And oh, by the way. Im kinda sorta pretty sure that I know how WAR works lol
So I have to argue against a lack of IFA aggressiveness, when I believe they should have been? Sorry - I can't do that :)
Hopefully it changes soon.
I think the lack of IFA + letting Reyes go + cheaping out on Peralta + ignoring Miller/Robinson (although this one is clearly debatable) + having a bottom 10 payroll every year makes it hard to doubt that this team clearly has payroll issues and that it's preventing management from doing their best to improve the team.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that we can't win with our current payroll/setup. There's tons of talent in this org, and 2015 will be fun, even if we stand pat. It's just that I find it frustrating that Sandy's options are very limited because of our payroll.
Hopefully we win 95 games this year and this issue never comes up again (see how no one complains about Wang anymore on Islander threads) but so long as the team has a bottom 10 payroll and a 5+ year streak of below .500 finishes, it's something that can't be ignored in offseason/roster building discussion IMO.
Sandy Alderson says it's more likely a shortstop is acquired via free agency rather than trade.
I'm some level of "fine" with that. Stephen Drew had a terrible year that still produced more XBH than Tejada and was on pace for 2+ WAR defensively (had 4 DRS according to fangraphs). Lowrie had an equally terrible year that was still close to 2 WAR overall (again according to Fangraphs). Both can play SS or 2nd, have career OPS over .700, and would likely be affordable deals for their age 30/31 seasons. No reason not to try with either player, but Drew on a 1 year deal would probably be my preference.
Yes Madoff hit us right when Sandy was being brought in and Im sure he wasn't prepared for that. Yes we had to lose Reyes because of it. Yes the Wilpons told him to slash payroll because they were in deep shit for a while. But didn't Sandy bring us from point A to point B? We traded off whatever value we had for some of the better young talent in all of baseball. We purposely went after high school players, knowing this was a 4-5 year process that would not happen over night.
The fruits of his labors are finally here(or almost here). Isn't this what we all suffered for and have been waiting for? I know it's what Ive been waiting for. If you asked me if I would have rather had a 150 million dollar payroll and to keep going down the path we were going down for another 20 years OR a complete cleansing rebuild done from the ground up that someday would allow us flexibility to put a SUSTAINABLE winner on the field but we had to slash the bloated contracts on the team and operate around 85-100 million for 4-5 years... I would have taken option B 1000 times out of a 1000.
And yeah as good as Sherzer and Lester are. I want to see Syndergaard and Matz have a shot at those spots. This is what we've waited for. Not a chance to spend 300 million in an offseason and strap this team and bring us right back to where we started for a quick fix.
On Tuesday, Alderson all but shot down Collins suggestion, saying Flores is the starter.
I guess conceptually its a possibility. Theyll both be there, Alderson said with a chuckle on Tuesday (DiComo, Dec. 9).
Good! Laugh at that fucktard publicly. It is funny isn't it what a fool he is?
And you are only fooling yourself if you dismiss the Reyes decision as something they did "in the past" because the reality is they haven't shown that they would handle it any differently today. Hanley and Tulo are both out there for similar contracts and they haven't shown an inkling of interest in either one (nor Andrus).
They needed to, and successfully did, restock the farm system to generate a more sustainable base of talent. But they have not followed through on supplementing that inexperienced talent base enough to make them a contender. And this is the time to spend because as soon as Harvey, Wheeler, JdG, Mejia, start hitting arbitration, then what?
As to if we should be spending like crazy yet? No I don't think so sorry. The younger players aren't even all here yet. Matz and Syndergaard are still in AAA along with Herrera, Plawecki, Nimmo, and soon to be Conforto. SOME have hit the stage and we are almost there but Im not ready to start plugging holes with square parts and money galore when we haven't even seen what we have yet. A year from now, Flores could be viewed as Starling Castro. A year from now Syndergaard could be our next ace. Nimmo could be our next top of the order Choo type bat.
That's why I am fine with being patient for at least one more year. I think Cuddyer and Granderson, and Colon all have similar aspects in common. They are all placeholders. All that said I think we are a wild card team this year and this team won't be hitting free agency until 2018-2020. That's when Ill be praying we have money(to retain our own guys)
If Reyes was looking for a 3-4 reasonable deal I bet he would be considered. But free agency is crazy lately. If he was getting a 7 year deal at this age now with his current injury history I sadly would let him walk and see through the Cechinni's, Roasrio's, ect. I'd look for a placeholder if Flores really couldn't hack it.
Source says #mets met personally with Craig Breslow today, but definite vibe I'm getting is team not currently in serious pursuit.
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Andy Martino @MartinoNYDN 28m28 minutes ago
Source says #mets met personally with Craig Breslow today, but definite vibe I'm getting is team not currently in serious pursuit.
Isn't this the guy you wanted nothing to do with? lol. Uh. We'll get a Loogy my man. Don't you worry.
You can't talk to some of these fans. they're brainwashed.
they want a winner so desperately they accept whatever morsel of hope management provides
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at this exact moment in time (4 years/88M). Fangraphs had them at almost the exact same WAR last year (3.4 for Hanley, 3.3 for Reyes) and they actually had Hanley with a better DRS. But the Mets didn't even entertain that discussion.
You can't talk to some of these fans. they're brainwashed.
they want a winner so desperately they accept whatever morsel of hope management provides
More like the opposite. "Some of these fans" want a winner so desperately they'll accept sacrificing everything we worked so hard to accumulate for a broken down player in his 30s who can no longer play his position defensively.
If they think that highly of Flores put him at 2nd and trade Murphy since they aren't extending him any way.
As for signing a free agent SS? Who? Hanley is a joke. He's no longer a SS and was never coming here. He is a horrible fit for this team. So who else? Kang?
a team so anemic for offense makes that trade-off.
Like Ben Cherington says:
As for signing a free agent SS? Who? Hanley is a joke. He's no longer a SS and was never coming here. He is a horrible fit for this team. So who else? Kang?
He was not a "horrible" fit for the team. You're entitled to your opinion, of course.
You are right about him "never coming here", because Fred won't open up the purse strings...
And you two are the ones unhappy with Flores at SS because of his defense???????? That has to be a joke after listening to this Hanley nonsense right?
Not surprisingly, you're still missing the point. The Mets did not have to choose between one thing OR the other. There is a balance, and they could have done both.
And you two are the ones unhappy with Flores at SS because of his defense???????? That has to be a joke after listening to this Hanley nonsense right?
In two years, when Hanley might not be able to play SS, we'll have a need in OF - Ganderson will be gone, and the guys on the farm may or may not work out.
And point out where I said I'd be unhappy with Flores and SS.
I'll wait...
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If you asked me if I would have rather had a 150 million dollar payroll and to keep going down the path we were going down for another 20 years OR a complete cleansing rebuild done from the ground up that someday would allow us flexibility to put a SUSTAINABLE winner on the field but we had to slash the bloated contracts on the team and operate around 85-100 million for 4-5 years... I would have taken option B 1000 times out of a 1000.
Not surprisingly, you're still missing the point. The Mets did not have to choose between one thing OR the other. There is a balance, and they could have done both.
Not surprisingly your missing mine. They did have to choose because of Madoff and we all know that. Should we just sit in a cave and cry about bad ol' Bernie until the day we die??? There is nothing we can do about it. The good news is we came out exactly how most of us had always wanted this team to be anyway. This is called a rebuild. I know its shocking for most rooting for NYC teams but this is what it looks like. Time to see it through and complete this thing the right way. We are almost there.
I saw him play plenty last year, thanks - I live on the west coast and saw many Giants/Dodgers games (plus other games)...
Hanley's defense now isn't really any worse than it was when he was a Marlin. He's usually a net negative but his bat is always near or at the top for the position.
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No fucking chance in hell Hanley plays SS the next 4 years. He likely never plays there again. WTF dude! Get off Hanley. He might have worked for LF or a DH. We don't need a LF or a DH last I checked.
And you two are the ones unhappy with Flores at SS because of his defense???????? That has to be a joke after listening to this Hanley nonsense right?
In two years, when Hanley might not be able to play SS, we'll have a need in OF - Ganderson will be gone, and the guys on the farm may or may not work out.
And point out where I said I'd be unhappy with Flores and SS.
I'll wait...
Was referring to PJ and Eric. Wasn't even talking to you.
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In comment 12026396 ZGiants98 said:
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If you asked me if I would have rather had a 150 million dollar payroll and to keep going down the path we were going down for another 20 years OR a complete cleansing rebuild done from the ground up that someday would allow us flexibility to put a SUSTAINABLE winner on the field but we had to slash the bloated contracts on the team and operate around 85-100 million for 4-5 years... I would have taken option B 1000 times out of a 1000.
Not surprisingly, you're still missing the point. The Mets did not have to choose between one thing OR the other. There is a balance, and they could have done both.
Not surprisingly your missing mine. They did have to choose because of Madoff and we all know that.
According to Fred, that was not the case. He would't lie to us, the lowly fans, would he?
LOL...
So your prozac is clearly wearing off.
I think Hanley is better. He's a proven middle of the order bat.
And for the billionth time it's not about me even advocating for this signing as much as it is about Shecky saying there were no options out there to improve the team in FA the past couple years. Which is 100% bullshit. The Mets chose not to sign them in favor of Grandy, Colon, Chris Young, Farnsworth, Valverde, Cuddyer, etc.
Ok Flore fan. Got it. Im pretty sure you don't view him as a SS and have been campaigning for a better option all year but if not I apologize. I know for sure Eric it's in that boat.
It's over and done, it is what it is. I just don't think Flores is going to be much better defensively than Hanley. I'm willing to live with it because I think he will hit. It's the same story with Hanley except he's a better hitter than Flores and will probably be more of a net positive.
So your prozac is clearly wearing off.
I think Hanley is better. He's a proven middle of the order bat.
And for the billionth time it's not about me even advocating for this signing as much as it is about Shecky saying there were no options out there to improve the team in FA the past couple years. Which is 100% bullshit. The Mets chose not to sign them in favor of Grandy, Colon, Chris Young, Farnsworth, Valverde, Cuddyer, etc.
Exactly. Shecky somehow views Peralta as the only example of what we lost out on because of money and conveniently omits the fact that not even looking at FAs bc of money is an even bigger part of the problem. The mets arent in on anyone, ever.
You have more faith than Flores's father.
Again, I like Flores... but let's not act like the guy is a slick fielding SS.
You have more faith than Flores's father.
No I have faith in Flores, Reynolds, Tovar in 2015 and that we'll still be able to make a trade at the deadline if we are in it and all three options are so bad they are dragging down the team because of it(extremely unlikely). Part of me wanting to see this rebuild through is seeing what we have in a ridiculously talented player like Flores. Not blocking him with an over aged player who can't play the position anyway.
Again, I like Flores... but let's not act like the guy is a slick fielding SS.
Im not but he had a positive UZR and Hanley was on a whole other level of bad. Flores also absolutely has the arm for short something nobody mentions and it would be wasted at 2nd. Either way...Again. Hanley made no sense on this team.
He's younger than Wright.
When this 4 year deal for Hanley ends he's still younger than Cuddyer & Colon - two of the last three major free agent signings and he's younger than Granderson was by two years when he was signed.
He was the starting SS for the playoff Dodgers, I don't get why he was such a bad fit for the Mets? He was good enough to play SS for the dodgers, but from October to December that became untenable.
you get stubborn views in your head sometimes and argue to the point of no return.
Just say you were a little bit wrong and move on.
Spend. SPEND for the sake of spending. Pick the most expensive three free agents and just sign them. This is New York dammit.
I didn't say spend for the sake of spending. Just sign a few free agents and show you care. Like Cruz. Like Ellsbury. Like Cano. So we could win 83 games and not contend you know.
Then the next offseason "I can't believe we aren't spending more. We are so close. Spend another $50mm. Sign ten year deals. So next offseason I can say the same thing. I loved a roster of Bay, Castillo, Ollie, and Johan collecting checks for nothing at the end of their deals.
Again. Never said there were no players the Mets could have signed. Those I've chatted with in the past no what I agree with and disagree with this front office. Again. Which specific player were the fans clamor img for that would have made the Mets a contender? Anyone who is good at searching, please pull my quotes from earlier in the thread. Please.
Yes or no?
Exactly. I feel like Im in the looney bin talking about him coming here to play SS for 4-5 years. My god.
I have no idea what your argument even is. You flip out on people for questioning the Mets finances saying that everyone wants them to spend just to spend and you point out the shitty deals like Jason Bay, etc. as some sort of "proof" that spending money means poor allocation of resources.
The point some of us are trying to make is that despite hearing constantly about "flexibility" the Mets have taken the cheapest road possible in nearly every instance.
Personally, I just don't buy that they will spend on the "right" guy. I think they will avoid it as often as possible and try to keep the payroll as low as they can. When you hear that they're just trying to move Gee for salary relief, what else would anyone logically think?
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Again. Hanley made no sense on this team. [/quote]
Yeah, why would the Mets need a middle of the order SS??
if you deny that then I think everyone misunderstood you.
my point was NEVER advocating signing these guys, but absolutely they could have made the Mets contenders.
And you can't add WAR like you did to come up with win differentials. it's not how it works.
my point wasn't the Mets have to sign Hanley Ramirez, but I do believe they could have done so, and would have been better for it and for at least a couple of those years he could have been their SS.
Personally I can't wait until we trade all three of them but I realize we can't do it all at once.
I didn't mean to imply anything. I get annoyed hearing everyone always botch about spending. I want TALENT, and don't care about payroll. Typically talent cost money, so I know cheap talent is the most valuable. Give me a team last year of Stanton, Trout and Bryce Harper and the middle of the lineup and I'm a happy man. All that probably cost less than Grandy did.
My point was, it's not like a deal was sitting there waiting to be done. But the Wilpons squashed it because of money. There WERE deals to be made. Aldersons drags his damn feet and it hurt, that's another story. Team could have improved, and it's not about money.
Anyway, hoping they swing for the fences at short. And it isn't a swing and miss.
You can't add up the teams WAR and ignore the baseline, that's all. For simplicity. A team full of AAAA players will still win about 45-50 games.
if that were the case, add up the WAR of all the Mets players and they're what a 30 win team?
You shouldn't post about something if you have no idea what it means.
- I have no problem with Wilmer Flores getting a shot at SS, but it's asinine to pass up better options just to keep the roster open for him. There's no downside to bringing in a Drew/Lowrie/Brad Miller/Taylor/etc. Giving up on the offseason now and handing him innings at a position most in the organization doubted he could play (and perhaps some innings to Tejada as well) is what I am against.
- I would absolutely be willing to pencil Wilmer Flores in right now to play every day at the position he's most likely to succeed at, and would actually upgrade defensively, which is 2B. But to do that they'd have to trade Murphy, which is somewhat complicated by the fact that their "big signing" in LF is about as reliable as Moises Alou. Had they signed a stronger LF'er (like Hanley) perhaps it would be easier to trade Murphy's bat? And even still if they could get a fair return for Murphy I'd be ok with that because he's a flawed player who clearly isn't in their plans beyond this season.
Look, there's still a lot of offseason left but all I've said is that I think it would be a huge mistake to write in the opening day lineup card of Flores - Murphy right now when it's supposed to be a "pitching first" team. To do nothing to protect that potential defensive situation would be penny wise and pound foolish. And we don't need to rehash and re-argue any of this I know how you feel - defensive stats are a waste when it comes to Murph and Cuddyer being dead last at their respective positions and Flores not getting to any balls out of his zone and TdA's throwing %/errors, but not when it comes to Hanley Ramirez - who just played 120 games at SS on a 94 win team.
Earlier, Alderson mentioned just 2-3 viable trade options for Mets. Told that the Ms Chris Taylor and Brad Miller are in that group.
I didn't mean to imply anything. I get annoyed hearing everyone always botch about spending. I want TALENT, and don't care about payroll. Typically talent cost money, so I know cheap talent is the most valuable. Give me a team last year of Stanton, Trout and Bryce Harper and the middle of the lineup and I'm a happy man. All that probably cost less than Grandy did.
My point was, it's not like a deal was sitting there waiting to be done. But the Wilpons squashed it because of money. There WERE deals to be made. Aldersons drags his damn feet and it hurt, that's another story. Team could have improved, and it's not about money.
Anyway, hoping they swing for the fences at short. And it isn't a swing and miss.
First, please stop bringing up that fans are clamoring for the Mets to spend for the sake of spending. Nowhere in this thread (or anywhere for that matter) has anyone said that.
Second, this is a silly argument that nobody is going to walk away happy with because of the drastically different views. But are you going to tell me that if the Mets added two of Cruz/Ramirez/Cano/Ellsbury and you think this is still a 83 win team? If so, than that's absurd and we can stop the conversation right now. The Mets are a team in desperate need of offense...that's what those options give you.
You said "Team could have improved, and it's not about money." It absolutely is about money. There's a reason why the Ownership obviously wants the Mets to be a $95 mill salary team. And that's probably where we will end up on opening day. There have been plenty of opportunities to add a player (via trade/FA/Int'l FA) over the past few seasons that would have improved this team for the long run. But we have be involved with very very few of them. Instead opting for the bargain basement on 1 or 2 year deals. They've done a great job of building a foundation of young talent, now they have to supplement that young talent with proven talent. That's the way it's done.
Tell me how many teams with a bottom 10 payroll make the playoffs, let alone contend for the WS. Missed opportunities. It doesn't mean we need to have a $150 mill payroll but trying to get by on $95 Mill just isn't going to do it. Look at all the teams at that have a $95 mill payroll or lower and tell me i'm wrong. I just isn't enough.
Trading Murphy, sliding Flores over to 2nd(who you have no idea whether he will be any better defensively or not) and signing a Drew isn't doing jackshit for this team. It likely is a MAJOR downgrade.
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you don't take WAR and say that's how many wins difference the team would be.
if that were the case, add up the WAR of all the Mets players and they're what a 30 win team?
You shouldn't post about something if you have no idea what it means.
right back at you chief
Two.. Curtis Granderson is your new LFer. Not Cuddyer.
1m:
drew more popular this winter off rough year (but w/ no draft loss). possibilities: nyy nym hou oak atl sd lad tor wash mia
It's about the money, and they need to increase payroll? Your quotes. Nothing about talent, just money, money, money.
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It absolutely is about money.
Followed by:
There have been plenty of opportunities to add a player (via trade/FA/Int'l FA) over the past few seasons that would have improved this team for the long run. But we have be involved with very very few of them. Instead opting for the bargain basement on 1 or 2 year deals.
And followed by:
Tell me how many teams with a bottom 10 payroll make the playoffs, let alone contend for the WS. Missed opportunities. It doesn't mean we need to have a $150 mill payroll but trying to get by on $95 Mill just isn't going to do it. Look at all the teams at that have a $95 mill payroll or lower and tell me i'm wrong. I just isn't enough.
4 of the top ten payrolls made the playoffs, 3 of the BOTTOM 10 made the playoffs...
Payroll rules all - ( New Window )
right back at you chief
Just FYI, if you add up all the WAR for every player on a MLB team and add 48, the estimated number of wins for a team with all replacement level players, that should bring you pretty close to the team's actual number of wins.
Baseball-Reference.com WAR Explained - ( New Window )
Still when the difference between playoff contention and the Mets is 9 wins and really less than that to be in legit contention. adding two to three players over the past two off-seasons different than the ones added you can easily make up that difference, which was the point I was making.
Thought you'd outta know
4 of the top ten payrolls made the playoffs, 3 of the BOTTOM 10 made the playoffs... Payroll rules all - ( New Window )
I don't even know what you are talking about with your previous post...you are all over the place. Obviously it's about talent...and most of the time you need to spend money to obtain that talent. They go hand in hand. I didn't think I would have to spell that out for you.
As for payrolls, I never said anything about the top 10 teams in payroll making the playoffs. In fact, I said earlier that we don't need to spend $150 mill to be good. Or did you just decide to ignore that line? I asked how many teams with a $95 mill payroll made the playoffs. Let me answer that for you. 3 out of 10.
Kansas City
Pittsburgh
Oakland
Those three teams just scream consistent contenders every year, right. Yeah, didn't think so.
2014 Playoff Teams:
Dodgers - $242 Mill
Angels - $172
Giants - $172
Detroit - $171
Wash - $141
St. L - $128
Balt - $111
KC - $96
Oak - $94
Pitts - $72
The top 6 teams above are consistently contenders. The bottom four...not so much. I like what you did up there, though, by adding the "top 10 payrolls" to support your argument. However, its irrelevant since I never said you need to be a top 10 payroll to be successful. Never. In fact, I made it a point to say that we DON'T need to be that high of a payroll.
Nice try. Reading is fun.
Trading Murphy, sliding Flores over to 2nd(who you have no idea whether he will be any better defensively or not) and signing a Drew isn't doing jackshit for this team. It likely is a MAJOR downgrade.
My stance really hasn't changed. Go back a few pages, all i've been saying this whole time is that doing nothing would be shameful. That's all. This was my very first post in this thread:
Eric on Li : 12/3/2014 9:49 am : link : reply
it will be a big mistake. This is currently an 85 win team. Everything breaks right maybe they get closer to 90, but if anything goes wrong (Wright, Granderson, Cuddyer, Harvey) you're looking at another 80ish win season. Note that things haven't gone right for any of those 4 guys over the last 12 months (and plenty has gone right for the rest of the roster to limited results).
And, as PJ said, it's the Mets - when does everything break right? After all this time losing, If 90 wins is the goal, they need to have a roster that's not only capable of winning 90 but capable of winning 95-100 (in a best case scenario). That's what it is to be a true contender, and that's what this team would be if they could add just 1 more significant piece. You can't just expect them to develop the winning culture the Giants/Cardinals have overnight and waltz into the season/playoffs with an 88 win team and expect them to compete.
I'm not delusional and totally get that there aren't a lot of moves out there to be made. But is asking for an Andrew Miller & Didi Gregorius really all that insane? For the Yankees those moves are the appetizers to 150M+ at Scherzer and another 60M at Headley. It's farcical that the Wilpons have made an attempt to sign Andrew Miller a pure fantasy for Met fans.
Rob Brender - "TIFWIW but the Mets could get something done tonight"
Kristie Ackert - "still talking to teams tonight but nothing close"
After the way Colon came out of nowhere last year and Cuddyer this year I'm betting when something happens it will be something that might not have been seen coming.
Thought you'd outta know
Checked out Claudio's splits and they're pretty sick against lefties. If we could get him for Gee I would be all for it. 22 year old kid still on a rookie deal. Good stuff.
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
You love twisting around words, don't you? You are clueless.
Yup. Either way you gotta trade one. You really think Gee is a reliever of the future? To each their own but I don't like that idea at all.
Then in AAA you have a glut of bullpen longman options like Verrett, Bowman, and Mazzoni that could all fill that role if an injury strikes. There will still likely be Dice-K/Lannan options inviting to spring training. I just don't see how Gee fits there.
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Let's see who these guys are moved for
Yup. Either way you gotta trade one. You really think Gee is a reliever of the future? To each their own but I don't like that idea at all.
I absolutely think he could fill the role Dice-K had last year.
Lannan sucks.
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In comment 12027015 arcarsenal said:
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Let's see who these guys are moved for
Yup. Either way you gotta trade one. You really think Gee is a reliever of the future? To each their own but I don't like that idea at all.
I absolutely think he could fill the role Dice-K had last year.
Lannan sucks.
I meant those "type" of deals that always happen. We will bring in a few vets to compete in spring training just like we do every year. Some are nice depth some don't. Obviously I don't want actual Lannan. lol
Link - ( New Window )
So.. we should have signed Hanley? :)
I can't wait to get this season under way. I can't believe we still have 4.5 months to argue about whether Flores can play SS or not. This is going to be brutal! lol.
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. Link - ( New Window )
So.. we should have signed Hanley? :)
LOL, I love this place.
Sandy seems to be spewing comments that sound like they are coming from my own head. I pray he follows through. I am so sick of knowing the game is over when we fall down by 3 runs. Time to score some runs. With Flores AND Murphy in the lineup and this pitching staff this year we are going to beat a lot of teams.
He's getting guaranteed money.
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Mayberry Jr its to a minor league deal. I think Puello can provide just as much as he can. The both still mash lefty but I think Puello still offers more upside as an overall player. Might make for a nice camp battle although Im sure Mayberry wouldn't come here for just that.
He's getting guaranteed money.
Agreed but apparently the holdup in him being signed was that Sandy was trying to get him on a minor league deal or at least they are looking at players like him for minor league deals. For a player like Mayberry I don't want him on a major league deal. Ill be pretty bummed. Ludwick or Gomes? absolutely... but Mayberry? Ill be mildly bummed if we lose Puello for the likes of that...
Its honestly been weird. I wouldn't be surprised if Sandy and Collins go at each other this year. Two people in the same building on totally different pages going public with differing viewpoints? Sandy chuckling at Collins comments publicly? I could actually see this getting ugly.
San Francisco now in on Gee too!
Lol. Yes!
San Francisco now in on Gee too!
Brutal vs. righties doesn't get you stuck with a minor league deal in December. He's getting 1-2 million from someone, or one of those BS "if he makes the team he gets X guaranteed" wink wink "hes making the team but they don't want to use a 40 man spot yet deal" Quote me.
Eno-John Mayberry
Mayberry didnt make the cut for the list of attractive but affordable right-handed power options, ostensibly because his playing time projection is modest (199 plate appearances). But if you want your right-handed bat to play a little outfield defense without falling down, you may want to check out Mayberry. Certainly once Michael Morse, Tyler Moore, Corey Hart, and Andrew Brown are off the market. Maybe even before Brown is signed. Mayberry has shown above-average defensive work in the corner outfield, is projected for an average walk rate (8.1%) and above-average power (.188 ISO), and his career 22.7% strikeout rate is not terrible either. Given his health and youth (30) compared to some of the other right-handed power outfielders, you could make the case he was the second- or third-base option at that position.
And ultimately I think his take on it is dead on.
Was the Didi Gregorius trade a missed opportunity for the Mets? - ( New Window )
If we're going to make a trade, I'd still hold out a little hope for Miller. Other than that, I don't know. I wouldn't be terribly upset with Flores getting a chance but I'd like to see improvements elsewhere (i.e. bullpen, bench)
I'd only trade prospects for Tulo level talent or a Bogaerts like prospect (pitching for player type deal)
Some other notes from Twitter:
Jack Curry says Mets are confident Gee will get dealt this week.
Most are confident Verrett is getting taken in the rule 5 draft thinking he can be a back-end starter or 7th inning guy.
#Twins have interest in Gee/Colon, but #Mets dont like SS Eduardo Escobar Min willing to move so matchup unlikely
Agreed - though Escobar does have a very Tejada-ish whiff to him. No power, needed a high BABIP to get close to 2 WAR, walks less and strikes out more.
Sandy Alderson says Mets considering bidding in posting for Korean SS, but unresolved whether they will.
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Murphy: $8M (projected)
Gee: $5M (Projected)
Niese: $5.1M
and wishful thinking:
Granderson : $15M
Murphy: $8M (projected)
Gee: $5M (Projected)
Niese: $5.1M
and wishful thinking:
Granderson : $15M
Gee now. Murphy at the deadline or possibly just let him walk. Heck, we might even offer him arbitration depending on Herrera. Colon at the deadline to open a spot for Thor. Neise next offseason to open a spot for Matz. Granderson sonetime in 2016-2017 to make room for Nimmo/Conforto.
I used to post there a lot. Then they had this huge crash and everything was reset and lost. I couldn't login and decided never to re-join. Dan's fine but it's basically the same 5-6 guys posting there. The site itself is very weak. MMO has gotten much better over the last year. Some pretty good discussions going on daily with thousands of comments. I like Amazin Avenue and Macks Mets too.
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not a big expert on Escobar but they would really turn down a SS who put up 2.3 WAR in 133 games last year for Dillon Gee? Seems pretty greedy to me. I hope this ends up a Marlon Byrd situation and not an Ike Davis turn down Britton situation.
Agreed - though Escobar does have a very Tejada-ish whiff to him. No power, needed a high BABIP to get close to 2 WAR, walks less and strikes out more.
Like I said despite my obsession with baseball and the minors this guy has someone totally flown under my radar in every possible way. To be clear, he might be horrid just hope he's not a league average SS going forward that we end up passing on for a middle reliever. In general I despise Tejada types as it is. The idea the league has a bunch of zeroes playing SS that play solid D is simply a false one.
Another team which had interest in Wade Miley has dropped out of negotiations with Arizona, convinced D'backs are close to deal w/ Red Sox.
That wasn't meant as an insult. I meant you are fine in relation to the snarkiness and pretentious behavior that rubs people the wrong way. (IE you don't act like a lot of them)
For example, I know it's his thing, but has Nitey ever made a serious comment?
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for me being "fine" thanks for that amazing title. Hate to tell you I'm closer to neutral than you are despite the "negative" label you have placed on me.
That wasn't meant as an insult. I meant you are fine in relation to the snarkiness and pretentious behavior that rubs people the wrong way. (IE you don't act like a lot of them)
For example, I know it's his thing, but has Nitey ever made a serious comment?
No his schtick is to ONLY like prospects and always want to tear it down. Always 1 sentence response.
Career vs. lefties .222/.338/.318
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In comment 12028184 DanMetroMan said:
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for me being "fine" thanks for that amazing title. Hate to tell you I'm closer to neutral than you are despite the "negative" label you have placed on me.
That wasn't meant as an insult. I meant you are fine in relation to the snarkiness and pretentious behavior that rubs people the wrong way. (IE you don't act like a lot of them)
For example, I know it's his thing, but has Nitey ever made a serious comment?
No his schtick is to ONLY like prospects and always want to tear it down. Always 1 sentence response.
I know but how does that not get old after a while? Lol. All good.
-Mets have inquired into Phil Coke
AAA (38)
Based on the above, the Mets probably protect the following 38 players in AAA: Brandon Allen, Martires Arias, Alberto Baldonado, Shane Bay, Chase Bradford, Kevin Canelon, Oswald Carabello, Xorge Carrillo, Alex Castellanos, Darrell Ceciliani, Luis Cessa, Victor Cruzado, Miller Diaz, Darwin Frias, Gilbert Gomez, Darin Gorski, Chase Hutchingson, Adam Kolarek, Jake Kuebler, Rainy Lara, Dustin Lawley, Seth Lugo, Vicente Lupo, Cam Maron, Luis Mateo, Johnny Monell, Daniel Muno, Luis Ortega, Greg Peavey, Tyler Pill, T.J. Rivera, Jean Rodriguez, Cody Satterwhite, Travis Taijeron, Domingo Tapia, Zack Thornton, Cory Vaughn, Logan Verrett
AA (37)
Adrian Abreu, Octavio Acosta, Gaby Almonte, Micheal Bernal, Leon Canelon, Jose Celas, Anthony Chavez, John Church, Albert Cordero, Maikis De La Cruz, Gabriel Feliz, Jose Figuera, Randy Fontanez, Ryan Fraser, Juan Carlos Gamboa, Audry German, Jeff Glenn, Julian Hilario, Manuel Hilario, Alvin Maracaro, John Mincone, Yoryi Nuez, Jairo Perez, Eudy Pina, Natanael Ramos, Luis Rengel, Alfredo Reyes, Periso Reyes, Ruben Reyes, Aderlin Rodriguez, Lenny Rosario, Yeixon Ruiz, Jon Velazquez, Carlos Valdez, Edioglis Villasmil, Jeff Walters, Beck Wheeler, Nelfi Zapata
Not protected
Josh Dunn (last season 2010), Jose Encarnacion, Carlos Gomez (2013) A.J. Pinera (2010), Eddie Rohan (2013)
Would love to get the Marlins into talks for Niese. They are looking for a vet to lead the young kids, send a message they are trying to win, and cost control. They are looking to move youth.
Gee for Tulo - do it Sandy!
#Mets & #Twins spoke. Minnesota suggested SS Eduardo Escobar, but Mets not interested, per @MarlyRiveraESPN. Deal possible with other pieces
#Mets & #Twins spoke. Minnesota suggested SS Eduardo Escobar, but Mets not interested, per @MarlyRiveraESPN. Deal possible with other pieces
The more I think about it, that must only mean Sandy has better offers on the table.
Tonight. I officially hate the Dodgers.
no.
Huh?
Haeney isn't even as highly rated as Syndergaard let alone all 3 of those guys.
Its all good. The Marlins got a little better but they aren't an 85-88 win team like we all seem to think the Mets are . Not yet.
Harvey
deGrom
Wheeler
Colon
Niese
Gee
Montero
Syndergaard
Matz
All of those guys will probably be capable of taking rotation spots at some point in 2015. We just have too many pitchers. They can and should move Gee/Niese/Colon
According to all the beat guys they weren't interested (rightfully so).
He's supposedly still saying that. I doubt he leaves the 10M on the table, but who knows.
2m
Adam Rubin ✔ @AdamRubinESPN
To be clear: Rex Brothers' name has not (yet) come up in trade talks between Mets & Rockies over Dillon Gee. But I know Mets are intrigued.
Brothers had an awful year but great vs. lefties and closers stuff.
#Rockies Jeff Bridich says club has talked specific players with #Mets for Dillon Gee, nothing imminent. Rex Brothers not discussed.
Be an awfully creative way for one team to cut $10mm in payroll, while another says "hey, we tried to add payroll" lol
I like Ryan McMahon but he's far away.
Tyler Anderson could be a Niese type
Carasiti isn't enough for Gee but he went to SJU which is usually notable
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thought Haren said he would retire if traded?
Be an awfully creative way for one team to cut $10mm in payroll, while another says "hey, we tried to add payroll" lol
Dodgers are paying 10 million so the Marlins can't even make that claim.
Dump Haren on the Marlins. If he doesn't retire (more likely would than not), Marlins get an OK vet they are looking for, at no cost. Dodgers still save $3mm.
Dump Haren on the Marlins. If he doesn't retire (more likely would than not), Marlins get an OK vet they are looking for, at no cost. Dodgers still save $3mm.
Yeah but how can the Marlins claim they "tried to spend money"? It's either the Dodgers paying or nobody.
My major, major gripe with Alderson has always been his lack of creativity. Perfect example. You know you are losing Verret plus tomorrow. So why not throw Verret into a package to close a deal?
Murphy and Gee for Haney. No? Ok, we will throw in Verret....
Can't find a team to unload Colons contract? Hey, we won't pick up $3-$4mm on his contract, but we will throw Verret in to offset that.
Or a simple swap. Verret for a comparable A baller. What team wouldn't swap an A baller for a near ready SP? Frees up a roster spot for the !ets, and they add a younger prospect instead of getting nothing.
I like Ryan McMahon but he's far away.
Tyler Anderson could be a Niese type
Carasiti isn't enough for Gee but he went to SJU which is usually notable
whats storys backstory?
Also montero is unproven, Thor shouldn't be called up until mid June and martz is probably better served in Vegas all year in my mind (or at least needs to be there until mid June).
Meche?
what was up with that?
Also montero is unproven, Thor shouldn't be called up until mid June and martz is probably better served in Vegas all year in my mind (or at least needs to be there until mid June).
Gee is arbitration this year and again next year and then is a FA.
Meche?
what was up with that?
When I signed my contract, my main goal was to earn it, Meche said this week by phone from Lafayette, La. Once I started to realize I wasnt earning my money, I felt bad. I was making a crazy amount of money for not even pitching. Honestly, I didnt feel like I deserved it. I didnt want to have those feelings again.
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Story.
I like Ryan McMahon but he's far away.
Tyler Anderson could be a Niese type
Carasiti isn't enough for Gee but he went to SJU which is usually notable
whats storys backstory?
Was a big SS prospect, changed up his swing which hurt his overall offensive game. Some think he's only a utility guy but 14 homers 23 steals with 60 walks. The Mets liked Wall but he technically can't be traded yet (nor do I think he's realistic)
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who left 12M on the table and retired?
Meche?
what was up with that?
When I signed my contract, my main goal was to earn it, Meche said this week by phone from Lafayette, La. Once I started to realize I wasnt earning my money, I felt bad. I was making a crazy amount of money for not even pitching. Honestly, I didnt feel like I deserved it. I didnt want to have those feelings again.
Have to respect that. And it's not like he didn't earn enough to live the rest of his life comfortably, but nonetheless not many people have those standards
I like Ryan McMahon but he's far away.
Tyler Anderson could be a Niese type
Carasiti isn't enough for Gee but he went to SJU which is usually notable
If we can get McMahon, take him and run. Flip him later if we need immediate help.
Hearing strong buzz that Rays C Oscar Hernandez will go first in tomorrow's Rule 5 draft to the Diamondbacks. Can't fully confirm yet.
#RedSox have agreement in principle for #DBacks Miley, sources tell me and @jonmorosi. AZ will get Webster, De La Rosa and a minor leaguer
In all seriousness, appreciate the update for those without SNY.
In all seriousness, appreciate the update for those without SNY.
No problem.
Source say Mets have a deal in place to bring back Scott Rice. Split contract with invite to spring training.
As Newsday reported, Scott Rice is indeed back with the #Mets on a minor-league contract.
Yes
I'm told #Mets executives have dispersed from their suite for a few hours. Nothing close to done.
That's fine. lol. This place can certainly be depressing sometimes. Ive sparked so many arguments just from my positivity alone Im sure. Ive pissed a whole lot of miserable people off. Haha. Oh well. You need opposite sides of the spectrum to spark good debates anyhow.
Just that he was his sleeper in 2015. Talked about his delivery and his numbers he's put up. Also named Dario Alvarez and Mazzoni as other sleepers but that they are more well known.
He'll be in the Vegas rotation to start the year. He certainly could make the show in 2015 as a starter or reliever but he's got a shitload of talent in front of him. Not going to be easy.
Sources: #Rockies getting massive interest in OF Corey Dickerson, but would need to be overwhelmed to move him. Crickets on Tulo.
If anyone thinks he's lying that's fine. I don't.
I don't mind disagreeing with you, and often do, but you don't piss me off because you choose to take markedly positive slant on most Mets issues.
Im happy where we are at now though and Ive been pretty much targeting this year for a while. I think we are a wild card team and Im going to enjoy this season. Hell, I enjoyed last year knowing we weren't going to the playoffs. The young talent on this team is something we haven't had in decades and its awesome. Its only going to get better too.
I'm told #Mets executives have dispersed from their suite for a few hours. Nothing close to done.
I bet the Wilpons rented it out for a party, to recoup some of the costs of going to the meetings.
#RedSox have agreement in principle for #DBacks Miley, sources tell me and @jonmorosi. AZ will get Webster, De La Rosa and a minor leaguer
MLBN says Stewart denies it, no agreement yet on the minor leaguers. MLBN guys nevertheless say that "people we trust"are confirming the deal.
Yeah, man.. like I said.. it wasn't a slight at you at all. Even though I disagree with you now and then I don't mind it and it's good that we have some optimism and things to look forward to.
A few of us have stuck this whole thing out and never quit on the team or just said "meh, let me know when they're good again" which I know for a fact a LOT of Met fans did because the game threads and Met threads the last 4-5 years compared to 2006-2010ish have been FAR less active. There used to be a shit ton more posters on the game threads and the last few years it has basically been me, you, Dan, pj, HH, Phi, Schecky, Eric, etc.. like literally no more than 10 of us.
We're still not there yet but it seems there was a turning point mid-late last year where you finally got the sense that things were on the way back up and that the dark days were finally over.
The next few years should be fun. I am really excited about this coming season.
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we are all passionate Mets fans and want the same thing. The payoff is going to be especially rewarding for all of us when we finally win another one. Something non-Mets fans will never understand. We've suffered... lol
Yeah, man.. like I said.. it wasn't a slight at you at all. Even though I disagree with you now and then I don't mind it and it's good that we have some optimism and things to look forward to.
A few of us have stuck this whole thing out and never quit on the team or just said "meh, let me know when they're good again" which I know for a fact a LOT of Met fans did because the game threads and Met threads the last 4-5 years compared to 2006-2010ish have been FAR less active. There used to be a shit ton more posters on the game threads and the last few years it has basically been me, you, Dan, pj, HH, Phi, Schecky, Eric, etc.. like literally no more than 10 of us.
We're still not there yet but it seems there was a turning point mid-late last year where you finally got the sense that things were on the way back up and that the dark days were finally over.
The next few years should be fun. I am really excited about this coming season.
The posters will come out of the woodwork again when we are competitive. Which I have no problem with. I cant blame them for losing interest...there hasn't been much to get excited about. Us diehards are just a glutton for punishment, lol. Good times are coming, though. Just as soon as they open those purse strings, lol.
As for the Mets, didnt expect big things here. Their season hinges on Wright/Granderson producing.
Kevin Burkhardt @kevinburkhardt 59m59 minutes ago
But Ill say this- if they for a second year dont address SS by Spring Training, its embarrassing. Wilmer is a great kid, but not a SS.
I think he said he was going to "raid" us. Lol.
(To Fans) "Hey, we tried! Season Ticket payments due in 5 weeks!"
Not looking to rile people up but the truth is the Mets are methodical and unoriginal to a fault. Waiver wire, minor deals, minor league trades.. it's becoming a farce in that regard. I also think they botched who they added. I would have risked Morris or even Ynoa over Verrett. Guess we shall see.
Besides, the Mets would probably rather take the $50,000 from the teams taking our guys anyway.
Besides, the Mets would probably rather take the $50,000 from the teams taking our guys anyway.
arc,
I think he's talking before players had to be added/lost.
Obviously teams don't know who we will protect in advance and maybe a guy like Verett is a guy who other teams wouldn't have assumed would be a Rule V guy but.. I just can't see there being much of a return there. The odds of getting anything of use for Rule V type prospects alone are probably very small.
Obviously teams don't know who we will protect in advance and maybe a guy like Verett is a guy who other teams wouldn't have assumed would be a Rule V guy but.. I just can't see there being much of a return there. The odds of getting anything of use for Rule V type prospects alone are probably very small.
I'm not bitching about Verrett, upside is limited but he was expected to be added and wasn't so if they lose him and he ends up solid it's not as if it's a shocker to anyone. I had him being protected over Morris and Ynoa and still think that was the right move. Not a big deal. Then again they debated not adding Matz last year...
- Yankees found a SS they like and only dealt a 4-5 starter
- Dodgers completely reconfigured their roster without trading any of their own big prospects
- Red Sox reacted pretty substantially after missing out on Lester
- Even the Padres are about to pass the Mets in payroll after making a solid move to add Kemp
I just don't know how anyone can make the argument the Mets are "serious about winning" if they continue to sit things out and hoard prospects to point that other teams actively talk about going after them in the rule 5 draft. Kevin Burkhardt is right, it is an embarrassment.
Hearing that the #Marlins are working deal with #Reds for Mat Latos
Like I said on the other thread
Alvarez, Latos, Eovaldi, Koehler, Cosart.. not sexy names outside of Latos but could be very, very solid until Fernandez returns.
Dallas Latos @DallasLatos 8m8 minutes ago
WHAT! @jonmorosi: Sources: #Marlins, #Reds making progress on Mat Latos trade.
"payroll won't go up, and it may even be lower than it is right now"
ohhh.. the advantages to being in the NY Market.. isn't it wonderful =)
(1) Dillon Gee appears a goner
(2) Wilmer may really end up SS
(3) Lefty relief may just be competition among guys on minor-league deals
(4) The Mets would like a righy bat like Mayberry, allowing them to use Cuddyer at 1B vs. LHP.
"payroll won't go up, and it may even be lower than it is right now"
ohhh.. the advantages to being in the NY Market.. isn't it wonderful =)
Nah - Wilpon isn't the problem at all....
Sigh...
Sherman = "I agree.. if you're gonna have a bad defensive SS, might as well go cheap and in house"
"OR Matt Reynolds could be a player they could trust"
Mayberry receives 1-yr $1.45M deal from #Mets
#Mets select LH Shawn Gilmartin (spelling?) in major league phase of Rule 5 draft.
#Mets lose Logan Verrett to Baltimore in Rule 5 draft.
LHP Sean Gilmartin is a former 1st-round pick out of Florida State. Went 9-7 with 3.71 ERA in 26 starts in AA/AAA last season.
Dillon Gee trade front appears to have slowed down. No matches yet.
Which tells us: The Braves had seen enough of Gilmartin to believe that he would never pitch significant innings for them. Otherwise they wouldnt have given up on a 23-year-old lefty to land a 32-year-old backup catcher.
12/19/2013 - ( New Window )
Greg Peavey (@GregPeavey) to Twins in AAA phase of Rule 5 draft.
Juan Carlos Gamboa to Padres in Triple-A phase of Rule 5 draft
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 1m1 minute ago
Cam Maron (@cam_maron) to Reds in Rule 5 AAA phase.
Mets passed in AAA phase. RT @NYJ3Mets: do the Mets have picks in this draft?
They don't have room. Otherwise, they would have protected more players. RT @DrewKerr: What is strategy behind passing on AAA phase?
Randy Fontanez to Dodgers in Triple-A phase of Rule 5 draft.
Mets take no players in AA phase of Rule 5 draft. Draft now over. Mets lose Verrett (MLB phase), Peavey, Maron, Gamboa and Fontanez.
Verrett has better stuff, LOOGY's harder to find. It's a push.
I mean if they're not going to play Puello, even in the minors, what is his value?
David Lennon @DPLennon 12m12 minutes ago
#Mets had asked about Cespedes but price was a Wheeler or deGrom. They liked the Cuddyer route instead.
Sandy on pitcher trade: "Well see what develops over the next few days, couple of weeks. Its a long time between now and spring training.
David Lennon @DPLennon 12m12 minutes ago
#Mets had asked about Cespedes but price was a Wheeler or deGrom. They liked the Cuddyer route instead.
Me too!!
I agree, Puello is/was a legit 5-tool player, but he was losing AB's to Corey Vaughn who they tried to give away.
Full recap of Sandy Alderson's parting comments from San Diego: http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/96788/winter-meetings-wrap-up-gee-still-here #mets
Link - ( New Window )
Before John Mayberry Jr.'s deal is announced, #Mets are going to have to drop player from the 40-man roster. It's full with Rule 5 selection
There may be riots on Twitter, but possible. RT @mybaseballtwitt: Puello?
#sfgiants casting wide net for SP after not getting Lester. Definitely intrigued by Shields.
ervin santan close to a deal with twins
If they have Tejada on the final roster with Flores and Herrera, what is Tovar's role?
backup backup SS?
Talent/upside are not all that you take into account. They have to be "likely to stick on the 25 man roster all season".
They can wait because they haven't made Mayberry official but once they want to do that they wiull have to make the move. I think Goedell makes the most sense but we will see.
Ynoa and Morris have less than a 25% chance of lasting on a major league roster in 2015. Morris in particular walked 22 in 57 innings... in low A ball and it's not as if he throws 98.
Not sure if the trade could have been there but The only impressive thing Sandy has shown so far is an ability to trade for prospects. He hasn't identified any decent major league talent (sans bryd which was dumb luck) and frankly I think his drafts have been pretty bad.
Very likely. Kirk and Mayberry should be backup outfielders. RT @KGWargo: den Dekker to AAA?
0 replies 1 retweet 1 favorite
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 3m3 minutes ago
Landed back in New York. Same flight as Terry Collins. Weather was better in San Diego. I vote for meetings there every year.
A. ... good night. RT @Stoutman01: @AdamRubinESPN if you gave the Mets a letter grade so far this off season what would it be?
For those who missed it overnight, New Britain friends sent video of Rule 5 pick Sean Gilmartin's 9-K game in April:
Link - ( New Window )
Random question - is there still an embargo on Mets associated employees and WFAN? Sandy's interviews with Francesa were always really good and I actually found Sandy to be pretty forthright as well.
Joe and Evan complain about this all the time.
It's amazing how terrible the Mets are at running a business that depends on fan support. These owners are too stupid to stay in control in any just world.
#Mets officially announce signing of LHP Scott Rice to minor league deal. He's expected to be ready for season.
#Mets officially announce signing of LHP Scott Rice to minor league deal. He's expected to be ready for season.
He sucks. Really hope he doesn't make the team.
73 games but 51 total innings. If that's overworked he wasn't cut out for a long MLB career to begin with. He also was much better second half in 2013 so "overwork" seems like a BS excuse.
He pitched practically every other game after a 13 year minor league career.
that is the guy who is your first call to the bullpen?
He pitched practically every other game after a 13 year minor league career.
that is the guy who is your first call to the bullpen?
PJ,
I'd argue that's 2 different issues. He was BETTER second half so if he was overworked it didn't show up in his performance. I don't "love" Terry Collins but realistically can you really say you or I would use a guy LESS if he's pitching BETTER when your job is on the line? I know I wouldn't. I wouldn't give 2 shits about how he looks in 2014 etc
but he was also used far less 2nd half.
He had like 50 appearances in the first half, who knows that was probably record pace.
He only had 24 appearances the second half.
jed lowrie popularity index high. 4 different all-star from 3 teams have reached out to lowrie to recruit him to their team
I know many are soured off his season last year, but he still posted almost 2 WAR according to FG, and they had it as one of his best defensive seasons. For a reasonable 2 year deal they could do a lot worse. I'd also be fine with Drew on a 1 year deal.
Quote:
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 43s43 seconds ago
jed lowrie popularity index high. 4 different all-star from 3 teams have reached out to lowrie to recruit him to their team
I know many are soured off his season last year, but he still posted almost 2 WAR according to FG, and they had it as one of his best defensive seasons. For a reasonable 2 year deal they could do a lot worse. I'd also be fine with Drew on a 1 year deal.
Problem is right now he's looking for 3 years and he apparently said he's willing to play all over the field to do so. The Mets can't really offer him playing time anywhere else so it's tough to see them being the best fit. Astros reportedly offered 2 (and he's from the area) and he balked (which is why they are talking to Drew). I wouldn't mind Lowrie at the right price just don't see it being us.
It will be really interesting to see what Drew gets this year. Boras' tactics last year were insane and often criticized (rightfully so because he definitely didn't help his client's performance) but where it had seemed like the Mets made a great decision last year it may turn out that they would have been better off caving to the 2nd year. I have a hard time believing Drew wouldn't have been an upgrade over Tejada/Wilmer if he'd have had a normal Spring, and here we are 1 year later in a position where it would be good to get him on a 1 year deal.
"Gotta get Stephen going" "he's done it before" "this guy was an impact player for a championship ballclub" "Wilmer will get his chances"
"Well, we know Wilmer is swinging the bat well but we want to get Ruben going here"
Last year they were 22-28 on Memorial day. Granderson, Wright, and TdA had barely done anything. The BP was unsettled and LF was a mess.
In June the bullpen got fixed, Granderson had a good May/great June/ok July, TdA had a good July, Duda had great June/July, team overall had it's best offensive months May/June/July and they were 52-57 on August 1st. The high water mark of the season was 15-11, and after that the closest the team got to .500 was where they ended up (4 games under .500).
My point here isn't to be negative or say this team can't win next year. I believe the opposite actually, that they're very close and have somewhat underachieved - especially if their pitching is as special as it can be next year. But looking at the numbers realistically there's a razor thin margin for error. Not only do they need Wright and Granderson to bounce back, but also Cuddyer to stay healthy, while also needing the guys who played great last year to not regress. Harvey is a huge boost of enthusiasm that may be able to re-energize the entire roster, but it's hard to see how the upside on this team is anything past 85 wins as currently constructed.
I know this is a re-hash of old arguments and nothing that's particularly interesting or new, but in light of how active the winter meetings were in comparison to how inactive the Mets were, it's starting to feel a lot like 2014 again. Gee saga is this year's Ike Davis. Will Stephen Drew be this year's Jan 2014 Stephen Drew or Jan 2013 Michael Bourn? Flores/Tejada are still working hard to hopefully, maybe, magically turn into something. So many prospects we're seeing multiple guys plucked in the rule 5, but none that can be fairly traded for immediate help. Will this January be any different than all the others?
Quote:
Drew for a few million bucks and cutting Tejada. He might even be able to platoon with Flores a bit and would offer excellent late inning defense. The problem is, Collins would play Drew every day and we would have a black hole in the lineup and Flores would be screwed again. Steamer has Flores as a 2.5 WAR player next year for free. He's still the best option available.
"Gotta get Stephen going" "he's done it before" "this guy was an impact player for a championship ballclub" "Wilmer will get his chances"
Lol. Exactly
Steamer has Castro as a .270, 12 homerun, 60ish RBI player in Wrigley next year. Doesn't everyone believe Flores can put up those numbers? He already hit 6 in less then half a season last year. Steamer does... and they are historically ridiculously conservative, and are still saying Flores will hit 14 in less time.
Unfortunately, this ownership and FO just won't get that big time player unless its for pennies on the dollar...which means never. I'd love to excited for this team but it's so hard to when they operate like they are on food stamps.
As you said, there is a very small margin for error. They can very easily be just as bad next year. A lot easier than they can be much better. This team has worn me out.
Link - ( New Window )
Meh, that's not impressive.
Now, Tejada, he had twice as many ABs as Flores did and Tejada hit 5 HRs. Now that really gets the attention of the manager. What a stud that Ruben is.
They have such tunnel vision when it comes to Flores and the SS position.
Quote:
He already hit 6 in less then half a season last year. Steamer does...
Meh, that's not impressive.
Now, Tejada, he had twice as many ABs as Flores did and Tejada hit 5 HRs. Now that really gets the attention of the manager. What a stud that Ruben is.
Lol. Exactly.
But this is the time. Now is when the Mets should be going all out. They could do it and STILL have a low payroll for a NY team. I just feel like they are going to waste away prime years because...well, you know. It's a business model I just don't understand.
Like I said, they are a fringe team that may contend for a WC. And a lot has to go right for that to happen. Hopefully it does. Otherwise, they may have to bring in the fences again, lol.
Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reports Korean shortstop Jung-Ho Kang will be posted on Monday.
After Kang is posted, teams will be able to bid on the ability to negotiate exclusively with the 27-year-old. And at least a handful of teams are expected to show interest, as Kang batted .354 with 39 home runs and 115 RBI with the Nexen Heroes of the KBO this past season. The Mets and Giants are at least two teams expected to pursue the infielder.
Source: Ken Rosenthal on Twitter
Dec 13 - 5:22 PM
I'm kind of torn on this. It would be nice to see the Mets be aggressive and get something like this done because I think if they sign this guy, there's no way Tejada keeps getting to play but I do kind of want to see Flores get a chance.
Don't get me wrong, I like Cuddyer, but I also liked Moises Alou. At a certain point in guys' careers no matter how much you like them it's hard to fully count on them. Yanks are in the same boat with Beltran.
Ultimately I think it gets to Dan's point about a lack of creativity and an aversion to risk. Every decision is logical to a fault. Sometimes you need to take a bigger calculated risk. Tulo, Kemp, Andrus, Hanley, CarGo, even Andrew Miller or Robertson. There were guys available, in their primes, who have the ability to be true impact players. Why not add one before Wright and Granderson get any further from their respective primes?
His offense has never been an issue - it's the defense that concerns people
Quote:
This week in winter ball Flores has gone 7-21, with a homerun, 4 RBI's batting cleanup. He has now decided to add basestealing ability into his arsenal, swiping 3 bags this week. Ho hum....
His offense has never been an issue - it's the defense that concerns people
I get your point but it still doesn't make any sense. They are obviously not going to pony up for a game changer, so they would rather have a defensive stud that doesnt hit very well? For an offensively starved team? Talk about ass backwards. Flores isnt that bad in the field.
I'm kind of torn on this. It would be nice to see the Mets be aggressive and get something like this done because I think if they sign this guy, there's no way Tejada keeps getting to play but I do kind of want to see Flores get a chance.
I'd pass on this guy. The Mets won't "move on" for quite a while if he sucks. He screams Kaz Matsui to me. HR's were up something insane in Korea like 60% league wide aka juiced ball.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
But what is the competition equivalent of the KBO? AAA?
I'm kind of torn on this. It would be nice to see the Mets be aggressive and get something like this done because I think if they sign this guy, there's no way Tejada keeps getting to play but I do kind of want to see Flores get a chance.
I'd pass on this guy. The Mets won't "move on" for quite a while if he sucks. He screams Kaz Matsui to me. HR's were up something insane in Korea like 60% league wide aka juiced ball.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Kazuo part 2. I would rather just go Flores if we can't pry Miller away from SEA.
They have such tunnel vision when it comes to Flores and the SS position.
What position do you want them to improve besides 2b? Not to hate on Flores but its not like he set the world on fire in his opportunities last year. He's better than Tejeda but we should still be looking for better
Quote:
In comment 12031975 ZGiants98 said:
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This week in winter ball Flores has gone 7-21, with a homerun, 4 RBI's batting cleanup. He has now decided to add basestealing ability into his arsenal, swiping 3 bags this week. Ho hum....
His offense has never been an issue - it's the defense that concerns people
I get your point but it still doesn't make any sense. They are obviously not going to pony up for a game changer, so they would rather have a defensive stud that doesnt hit very well? For an offensively starved team? Talk about ass backwards. Flores isnt that bad in the field.
sandy has said offense is more important to there search for ss upgrade with the young strike out staff we have
This is not to say that Kang's numbers are hollow and have no meaning, but that the increase in his power numbers do not necessarily reflect improvement as a player. In 2012, according to the above-mentioned research, Kang was directly responsible for 21% of the runs scored by Nexen; in 2014, he was directly responsible for only 17%, despite the across-the-board increase in his numbers.
In addition, the Nexen Heroes play their home games at Mokdong Stadium, one of the smaller parks in Korea. Both right and left field are 322 feet from home plate, and the deepest part of the park, dead center, is only 387 feet away. Among the primary parks that KBO teams use, only Masan Baseball Stadium, home of the recently formed NC Dinos, is smaller (318 feet down the lines and 381 feet to dead center). By comparison, Citizens Bank is 330 feet down the lines and 409 feet at its deepest part; Yankee Stadium is 318 feet in left and 408 feet at its deepest part. Many of the home runs that Kang and many other Korean hitters hit in Korea would otherwise be fly balls in most stadiums in the U.S. It is important to note, however, that many of Kang's home runs could be considered "towering," and are still traveling when they pass out of the field of play. I can't say for sure whether or not, on average, these towering shots have enough on them to pass for MLB home runs, but it wouldn't be accurate to call all of Kang's home runs a product of smaller park dimensions.
Link - ( New Window )
I'm ok with this too.
.274 .297 .414 .711 and vs left-handed pitchers, his numbers are -
.143 .218 .187 .405. His numbers each year follow this same pattern.
Column http://nyp.st/1qKTbTk it is substantial risk, but a case for #Mets making offer #Rockies can't refuse on Tulowitzki
Link - ( New Window )
The waiting is over: Mets, go get Troy Tulowitzki - ( New Window )
Agreed. I do wonder if they start considering it if COL is willing to kick in some money like the Dodgers did with Kemp. Or maybe Gee/Murphy can be part of the trade to offset some prospect value and money? That's 3-5 WAR for half the price of Tulo, plus Thor any other prospects.
id go for a 5 for 2 deal:
we get tulowitzki and Brothers and cash to offset some of the salary/risk(say 20mil):
They get Thor, Gee, nimmo or Comforto, Lower Level Sp prospect and Reynolds.
Quote:
It'll never happen.
Agreed. I do wonder if they start considering it if COL is willing to kick in some money like the Dodgers did with Kemp. Or maybe Gee/Murphy can be part of the trade to offset some prospect value and money? That's 3-5 WAR for half the price of Tulo, plus Thor any other prospects.
if salary is a concern move murphy to sf, who seems interested in him for prospects. Moving gee and Murphy clears 13 mil off current payroll
yep and I think he is on sandy's radar as he is a clear upgrade over flores unlike the rest of available ss
Lagares
Granderson
Tulo
Wright
Duda
Cuddyer
TdA
Flores
Tell me that lineup doesn't make up the extra payroll increase in ticket sales within 24 hours. Not to mention a gold glove left side of the infield and an upgrade at 2B.
If something like Thor, Nimmo, Herrera, Gee + a lower level prospect was enough to get it done, I'd do it.
I still don't think that's enough though.
If something like Thor, Nimmo, Herrera, Gee + a lower level prospect was enough to get it done, I'd do it.
I still don't think that's enough though.
that's about where id max out as well unless we got Brothers and they kick in kemp money then id increase the last piece to next level up
If something like Thor, Nimmo, Herrera, Gee + a lower level prospect was enough to get it done, I'd do it.
I still don't think that's enough though.
I disagree, I think Colorado is willing and likes what the Mets have to offer. Here's an interview Rob Brender did with one of their beat writers at the beginning of the winter meetings, it really sounds like even other teams know the main barrier to dealing with the Mets is payroll.
Rockies beat guy - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
Kang is one free agent I actually hope they stay away from.
Kaz 2.0
So ignore... the scouting reports? Ignore the.... numbers in his league and the MASSIVE power increase the league displayed?
This is not to say that Kang's numbers are hollow and have no meaning, but that the increase in his power numbers do not necessarily reflect improvement as a player. In 2012, according to the above-mentioned research, Kang was directly responsible for 21% of the runs scored by Nexen; in 2014, he was directly responsible for only 17%, despite the across-the-board increase in his numbers.
In addition, the Nexen Heroes play their home games at Mokdong Stadium, one of the smaller parks in Korea. Both right and left field are 322 feet from home plate, and the deepest part of the park, dead center, is only 387 feet away. Among the primary parks that KBO teams use, only Masan Baseball Stadium, home of the recently formed NC Dinos, is smaller (318 feet down the lines and 381 feet to dead center). By comparison, Citizens Bank is 330 feet down the lines and 409 feet at its deepest part; Yankee Stadium is 318 feet in left and 408 feet at its deepest part. Many of the home runs that Kang and many other Korean hitters hit in Korea would otherwise be fly balls in most stadiums in the U.S. It is important to note, however, that many of Kang's home runs could be considered "towering," and are still traveling when they pass out of the field of play. I can't say for sure whether or not, on average, these towering shots have enough on them to pass for MLB home runs, but it wouldn't be accurate to call all of Kang's home runs a product of smaller park dimensions. Link - ( New Window )
HH I suggest you read this article before claiming people are trying to be "experts" on here. There are very real reasons to have concerns especially given the Mets payroll.
Eno Sarris
@enosarris
Jung Ho Kang's career OPS in Korea: .880. League OPS last year: .808. It's a nutso league.
Link - ( New Window )
In 2014 26 players hit .315 or better, 21 hit .320 or better and 12 hit .339 or better. 6 players posted OPS's of 1.000 or greater, 24 topped .900. Former MLB role player Eric Thames posted a 1.111 OPS (3rd in the league)
0 full-time starters posted ERA's below 3 (best ERA for any starter was failed MLBer Rick Vandenhurk). 6 SP's posted era's under 4, 3 of which were ex-big leaguers.
korean ss jung-ho kang being posted today. led korea with 1.198 ops in 2014. mets, giants, others interested.
Syndergaard A-, Dilson B+, Nimmo B per Sickels
Kang defensive plays - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
His arm is supposed to be his one calling card defensively. Looks chunky to me for a SS and the leg kick is absolutely terrifying. Can't think of many MLB players who succeed with a kick like that.
Link - ( New Window )
"However, ESPNs Keith Law recently ranked Kang 15th among free agents (Insider subscription required and recommended), believing that some of his power can translate to the Majors, likely at the cost of his batting average. He noted that Kang lacks the range teams would like to see out of a shortstop but has a 60 arm (on the 20-80 scouting scale) to make up for some of the range. Law noted that hed give Kang every chance he could to stick at shortstop while acknowledging that he, too, has heard scouts who see Kang as more of an unathletic corner guy whose power wont play in the Majors."
That is one hell of a batting style. Weird.
Jed Lowrie to the Astros for 3 years + option, per @brianmctaggart. So
If Tejada and Flores and Herrera are all on the 24-man roster Tovar has zero role.
If Tejada and Flores and Herrera are all on the 24-man roster Tovar has zero role.
They sort of "have to" keep Tovar for now. If an injury were to occur to one of Tejada/Flores then the next guy would be Reynolds and he doesn't need to be added yet. Right now Tovar is the "Quintanilla".
Read more: - ( New Window )
Mayberry performance bonus breakdown
Link - ( New Window )
#Marlins have 2-year deal with Michael Morse, per @JoeFrisaro, @flasportsbuzz, @Ken_Rosenthal, et al
Gordon - Yelich - Stanton - Morse - Ozuna - McGehee - Saltalamachia - Hechavaria
Talent wise that lineup still isn't much better than the Mets, but I'd choose it pretty easily because it's much better balanced, their key players are younger, and they have a legit MVP candidate who will carry them for stretches by himself. Defensively better everywhere except CF/3B. I don't know much about their farm other than that they gave up some highly ranked guys, but they've definitely made some interesting improvements.
As of yesterday, they were considering. Interest sounds lukewarm. Price is Right strategy? RT @jamesesavengers: Are mets bidding for kang
Someone from Mets told me week ago you have to discount South Korean home run totals more than Pacific Coast League totals. That inflated.
For instance, Yamaico Navarro had 31 HRs for Samsung in Korea last season. Who? Exactly. He hit 12 homers in 390 ABs with AAA Norfok in '13.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 9m9 minutes ago
Someone from Mets told me week ago you have to discount South Korean home run totals more than Pacific Coast League totals. That inflated.
Also doesn't have to be accepted until Friday and 30 days to negotiate so you could have 30-40 million (and the SS position) tied up for that long. Not that I expect the Mets to use it in other areas but another thing to remember.
Jet have to be good enough and fun enough to be watchable. Will try to negotiate a TV deal. If it goes south, very easy team to blow up. But if it works Loria walks away with hundreds of millions of $ extra. All Samson plan.
The Red Sox eventually traded Cespedes and two prospects to the Tigers for RHP Rick Porcello, who like Cespedes can be a free agent after next season.
Porcello is a guy we had targeted earlier in the offseason, Sox GM Ben Cherington said after the deal was announced. Weve had a pretty strong combination of scouting and analytics work on him.
Jet have to be good enough and fun enough to be watchable. Will try to negotiate a TV deal. If it goes south, very easy team to blow up. But if it works Loria walks away with hundreds of millions of $ extra. All Samson plan.
Totally agree. I think the $ the Dodgers kicked in was almost as big of a part of the Heaney trade as Gordon. I believe they paid the full salaries of all involved, even if Haren did retire. That move plus the Morse move were essentially free, and gave the perception that they are serious, for what was apparently a prospect with a lesser reputation among professional scouts than amateur. Win-win-win.
(though they are still better for it this year)
Sandy Alderson says #Mets "unlikely" to make a bid on Kang.
Alderson also said "the market" will dictate which starting pitcher gets traded. Team has been unsuccessful in attempts to deal Gee.
OK Yankees wanted Brett Anderson, Niese for Jorge Mateo. Do it up!
I think their lineup has a few young core players to build around and of course Stanton is awesome but half the lineup is filled of retreads. I know health is a major issue with our lineup but on paper we look much stronger.
Sandy Alderson says there is a "very high" probability Wilmer Flores is the Opening Day shortstop.
Adam Rubin @AdamRubinESPN 18m18 minutes ago
Sandy Alderson says Mets will just bring in lefties on minor league deals to compete in bullpen.
Full comments from Sandy Alderson on Kang, Lowrie and Wilmer Flores:
Link - ( New Window )
Alderson said the Mets were not in on free-agent shortstop Jed Lowrie, who just signed with the Houston Astros. Still, Alderson portrayed the probability of Flores playing shortstop as strong.
"I don't think the Lowrie signing increases the probability, because we weren't really in on Lowrie," Alderson said. "To that extent the probability [of Flores as the Opening Day shortstop] remains about the same, but I think it's very high."
Alderson said the Mets were not in on free-agent shortstop Jed Lowrie, who just signed with the Houston Astros. Still, Alderson portrayed the probability of Flores playing shortstop as strong.
"I don't think the Lowrie signing increases the probability, because we weren't really in on Lowrie," Alderson said. "To that extent the probability [of Flores as the Opening Day shortstop] remains about the same, but I think it's very high."
Good! Lol
I think their lineup has a few young core players to build around and of course Stanton is awesome but half the lineup is filled of retreads. I know health is a major issue with our lineup but on paper we look much stronger.
2014 Marlins scored more runs than the Mets so why would "on paper" the Mets lineup look better? The Marlins added Morse and Gordon and the Mets added Cuddyer. If you want to point to guys like TDA the Marlins can point to Ozuna and Yelich. Two teams look very even to me on paper.
Nope.
Eovaldi
Latos
Hernandez
Koehler
Cosart
All good young-youngish SP's and their pen is fantastic. cishek is crazy underrated.
Wheeler 3.68
Niese 3.92
Colon 4.00
Harvey 3.10
deGrom 3.70
Marlins-
Hernandez 3.70 (identical to deGrom)
Eovaldi 3.88
Koehler 4.20
Cosart 4.10
Latos 3.92
and eventually Fernandez will return
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Slated to start in the Marlins rotation until Fernandez gets back?
Nope.
Eovaldi
Latos
Hernandez
Koehler
Cosart
All good young-youngish SP's and their pen is fantastic. cishek is crazy underrated.
Good "youngish" pitchers doesn't equate to Harvey, deGrom, Wheeler in my mind. That's cool if you like them more but in my opinion the mets look stronger and deeper until they get Fernandez back. As for the lineup, we've been through this, but I'm expecting additions of Wright, Cuddyer, and Flores replacing black holes so I see more offense added then just Cuddyer. Time will tell
We barely did anything. We're banking on Harvey being Harvey and everyone getting better. Risky strategy. I get that there weren't a ton of moves to be made, but.. it is what it is.
We barely did anything. We're banking on Harvey being Harvey and everyone getting better. Risky strategy. I get that there weren't a ton of moves to be made, but.. it is what it is.
Don't know how it's possible to argue with this. Mets v. Marlins is a toss up to me, but all things mostly equal I'd take the team that has an impact player like Stanton. Could see it going either way though.
Mets add- Cuddyer, returning Matt Harvey, John Mayberry Jr.
Marlins add- Mat Latos, Dee Gordon, Mike Morse, MAYBE Dan Haren, Jose Fernandez at Mid-season or so
Marlins won 2 less games than the Mets. I don't think it's a stretch to say they are pretty equal teams with the Marlins possibly being a little bit better overall.
Sandy Alderson now projecting January before a trade involving a starting pitcher.
Sandy Alderson now projecting January before a trade involving a starting pitcher.
Cool. Hoping to rip someone off is a strategy I guess. Intertia too.
Morse and Duda both are average at best defensively right?
Morse career .821 OPS vs. lefties, Jones career .811 vs. righties
Duda 2014 OPS (.830)
And "anything special"... Michael Cuddyer most certainly is NOT a special player in a CO spot. Morse and Cuddyer are basically a push. If the Mets signed Morse over Cuddyer I would have felt exactly as I feel now.
Ozuna and Yelich are considered 2 of the best/most talented young players in baseball. To act like the Mets have young talent on the rise but the Marlins don't is ridiculous I'm sorry.
Mets add- Cuddyer, returning Matt Harvey, John Mayberry Jr.
Marlins add- Mat Latos, Dee Gordon, Mike Morse, MAYBE Dan Haren, Jose Fernandez at Mid-season or so
Marlins won 2 less games than the Mets. I don't think it's a stretch to say they are pretty equal teams with the Marlins possibly being a little bit better overall.
I have no idea who will be better, but to throw two more things on this:
(1) decent chance David Wright returns to form as a 5-7 fWAR player
(2) Marlins may have finished just two games behind the Mets, but the Nets were +11 in run differential and the Martins were -29. Mets were really unlucky -- Cards had a diff of +16 and won 90.
Trying to level set my expectations for Harvey and to some degree Fernandez.
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Special at all especially for a 1stbaseman. Not a huge Gordon fan either. Our core of Murphy, Wright, Duda, Cuddyer, Granderson is a little more established and we have young talent on the rise as well. There's nothing homerish about it. Most people are picking The Mets and Marlins to finish with mid-80 something wins. I just feel we are the better team until they get Fernandez back at this time. I can certainly acknowledge the Marlins are on the rise and I don't think that's outlandish.
Ozuna and Yelich are considered 2 of the best/most talented young players in baseball. To act like the Mets have young talent on the rise but the Marlins don't is ridiculous I'm sorry.
Here we go again. Who said the Matlins don't??
career wOBA .351
Morse 2014 wRC=133
Lucas Duda 136 wRC+
wOBA .361
Duda 2014 136 wRC+, .361 wOBA
Mike Morse 2014 133 wRC+, .355 wOBA
So if Morse is nothing special then Duda isn't either right?
And the Mets are what? Are you really putting up an argument over some of us seeing the Marlins being 1-2 games better than the Mets on paper? lol
Duda was a negative value 1b in 2014 in terms of defense (-10.1) 12/18 qualified. I think people turned "better than expected" into "good"
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I see the Marlins as a 82-83ish win team right now. Just my opinion.
And the Mets are what? Are you really putting up an argument over some of us seeing the Marlins being 1-2 games better than the Mets on paper? lol
What argument? Your the only one arguing. Lol. I just said I don't see them better than the Mets on paper right now until they get Fernabdez back. I even acknowledged most people see us both in the mid-80 range. I just think the Mets are the better team currently.
I'd project the Nationals at 90-92, Mets and Marlins at 83-84, Braves 81 or so, Phillies 70
I'd project the Nationals at 90-92, Mets and Marlins at 83-84, Braves 81 or so, Phillies 70
That about where I am at except I'd swing The mets a couple up and the Marlins at about 82
I'd take Lucas Duda over Morse. But Cuddyer vs. Morse given the team needs of each sure looks like a push to me. Morse is absolutely awful in the OF so I would take Cuddyer for the Mets but if hypothetically both were added to play 1b I'd probably take Morse to be honest.
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I think everyone gets nervous before a player gets back and Im sure we are all getting a little apprehensive, but I think it helps to point out guys like deGrom, Matz, Mejia, ect. on our very own roster pitching great post-TJ.
Steamer:
Dee Gordon 1.2
Christian Yelich 3.3
Stanton 5.9
Michael Morse 0.5
Casey McGahee 1.0
Marcel Ozuna 3.1
Salty 1.2
Hechavarria 0.4
Total is 16.24.
I absolutely despise some of the predictions for certain players like Duda, Murphy, and Lagares. All should easily surpass their predictions and of course Wright could too. Even with their ridiculously conservative estimates we are still a win ahead of the Marlins currently at 17.3. Our rotation is better as well.
Just pointing it out.
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Collins already is planning ahead and, depending how everything goes in spring training, the Mets could go with this lineup:
Lagares, Granderson, Wright, Duda, Cuddyer, Murphy, dArnaud, Wilmer Flores and then the pitcher.
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Don't see why not, although Sandy said general trade hiatus until January MT @NickStephens94: Does Gee to Rockies trade still have traction?
By the way, Cesar Puello is hitting .395/.425/.711 in 41 PA in the Dominican Winter Lg. 1 BB, 8 K, 3 2B, 3 HR. HR in 3 straight gms.
Matz- As high as a #2, same 2 plus pitches 1 average
Nimmo- "quality regular"
Herrera-Mets love Herrera's makeup, average at best at 2b, weak arm
Plawecki- feel to hit and get on base, defensive upside is average to a bit below (they really make him sound like LoDuca the Mets version)
Rosario- allstar upside
Conforto- Power ceiling questioned by some scouts
Montero 4-5 starter or pen because of Mets depth
Molina potential #3 if all goes well, has touched 96
Cecchini anywhere from regular at SS or 2b to utility player, plus arm, average range
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I will say that up to a 5 percent chance is a significant upgrade over November's "not happening."
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