should realize that in first year Giants drafted last, the next year, following the 08 season, low, in 2012, again last, and during the whole period, generally got to choose from a very picked over lot. So we paid a price for SBs and success, as the system is designed to ensure. As well, a significant portion of the failures were due to injuries that were genuinely unpredictable. This gives an article such as the subject one and the string of teeth gnashing and 20-20 hindsight posts that follow, the air of coming from a narrower perspective. The observation about drafting riskier prospects in the middle rounds may have some validity although when the pool of surer bets is diminished, more risk will inevitably creep in. We appear likely to have a vastly improved draft position this year.
"Common sense left the room by the third round, as New York reached for Syracuse defensive tackle Jay Bromley, when Auburn running back Tre Mason was available."
were the most puzzling to me. Wilson was a kick returner, not a halfback. He was incapable of reading the offensive line and making instantaneous adjustments as we see Jennings do every time he carries the ball. Hosley is simply too short to play corner in the NFL, never mind his inability to read receivers' moves.
RE: Taking Wilson over the likes of Cordy Glenn, Lavonte David
1. How many players on Green Bay played for other teams ? This is GM.
2. No matter what happens in NE, they patch the holes and continue to win. This is Coaching Staff.
3. Seattle & Denver - a little bit of both
Just sayin.
Meh on Seattle & Denver, they haven't bee good long enough to be mentioned in the same breathe as Green Bay and New England. Let's see how those teams look in 3 years... Green Bay and New England have been highly competitive for the last 10 years.
I think they should do whatever they can to keep Reese around
because i think he is a great player evaluator and scout. I think he won't take a demotion so some elevated title? I do think the Fish stinks from the head down so his choice of Marc Ross and then along with that some of the scouts need to be evaluated and most likely replaced. I disagree with some on here that '08 was a bad draft. The top three and arguably the top 5 were significant contributors for a few years. Where as '12 we 'gambled' or reached on every pick and '10 and '11 there were 3 significant 'contributors' out of 15 picks. If we had more 'legitimate' picks (instead of the next JPP when Jpp isn't even the next JPP)in those three years they would currently be in their prime and our roster wouldn't be made up of FA's with a history of injuries or who are past their prime and practice squad players.
On opening night of 2012 season, the chances of Wilson and Nicks being retired and washed up just 2 seasons later had to be 1%, at best. Other players like Goff and Ballard had 1 good season before their careers were pretty much finished due to knee injuries. All of these 4 guys (just examples) were all in their mid-20s.
One of the scary things for me is the seeming lack of progression from JPP and Pugh.
I think the problem has been coreected. The last two years have been good and I believe that the prior year would have been considered good if Wilson had not gotten hurt.
Was Beatty considered a reach when he was drafted in the second round?
If so its another position where our collegee player evaluation is absolutely horrendous, considering the drafting history of LB's TE's and OL for the past 6 years....
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
RE: RE: Taking Wilson over the likes of Cordy Glenn, Lavonte David
"Common sense left the room by the third round, as New York reached for Syracuse defensive tackle Jay Bromley, when Auburn running back Tre Mason was available."
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
The lack of talent, is Reese and Ross fault. How many times, in the last 3 years, has the Giants been held scoreless ? And in those games, how many times, did they actually reach the redzone ? One more thing. The Giants are the worse team in the NFL, when it comes to making 2nd half adjustment. Offensively and defensively. That's not on Reese and Ross
We have weak talent, probably bottom 5 in the league. You can make an argument that we have the worst overall talent in the league and certainly can make the argument that we have the worst O-line talent in the NFL. Someone drafting and signing free agents is doing a horrible job.
Is Tom Coughlin's boss. Have any of you people ever worked for someone? If so, do you tell your boss what to do? Tom Coughlin's primary responsibility is coaching the players he is given. That's all,
Everybody who knows the Giants knows also that Coughlin & his staff had more input under Accorsi. It was in Urn's book. What happened since is generational in nature with a touch of professional arrogance.
What people cannot realize is that this team is now back to where they were in the pre-Young 70s. Those teams had 2 special players-Carson & Van Pelt. This team has 2 special players. Manning & Beckham. That's basically it. Reese is absolutely horrendous at what he does
So all this happy horseshit about other teams have bad picks,
the draft is a crap shoot, etc., is irrelevant. The Giants have bad talent and have had bad talent for 2.5 years running now. Other teams are gathering talent better than the Giants; we need someone who can do it better.
I think TC has some say in the draft picks and FAs
but I think it is much less than people think. It is on the people whose job it is to get the players. We don't have the players. In fact, it may be only that we need a guy at X position who can do Y.
Shit, for how terrible Fewell is as a DC, we won a super bowl with him as a DC. Why? We had better talent. Since that Getteleman guy left, it has been a shit-show in the draft and FA but for OBJ.
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
I wonder once Wellington died how much more influence and involvement both John and Chris have imparted over time on the team has been a factor. I have a feeling their stamp is all over this trend.
Everybody who knows the Giants knows also that Coughlin & his staff had more input under Accorsi. It was in Urn's book. What happened since is generational in nature with a touch of professional arrogance.
i'm not sure what Urn's book is, but did it talk about coughlin's influence under reese?
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
Thanks for clearing that up. Now, people can spread the blame accordingly. Because it's always everyone else fault, but not Coughlin's
If so its another position where our collegee player evaluation is absolutely horrendous, considering the drafting history of LB's TE's and OL for the past 6 years....
No. Beatty went right where he was meant to go. His stock was late 1st round to late 2nd round. He was the 60th pick
Frankly for all Beatty's faults there have been a fair number of high first round LT's who have substantially worse careers than Beatty.
RE: I think TC has some say in the draft picks and FAs
but I think it is much less than people think. It is on the people whose job it is to get the players. We don't have the players. In fact, it may be only that we need a guy at X position who can do Y.
Shit, for how terrible Fewell is as a DC, we won a super bowl with him as a DC. Why? We had better talent. Since that Getteleman guy left, it has been a shit-show in the draft and FA but for OBJ.
Given the amount of BC and Syracuse picks we've made I think Coughlin and/or Mara have had significant impact.
Coughlin doesn't sit at the combine with his stopwatch for the good of his health.
When I watched Finding Giants, all I remember seeing
is Marc Ross saying, "This is our number one guy" before each pick.
I don't remember either Reese or TC ever shown as contradicting Ross.
I came away with the belief after watching all the episodes that all the scouts propose their recommendations (perhaps TC with his stop-watch timings) and Ross sifts through everything and says, This is our guy.
Zero indication from the episodes that anyone, including Reese and TC, ever contradicted Ross. Clearly someone should have been contradicting Ross over the years and IMO that person should have been Reese and not TC because it's TC's job to coach the players and R&R's job to find the players.
Wonder if Wilson had a congenitally narrowed C-Spine?
has as much influence under Reese as he did under Accorsi.
Just look the previous drafts and where they went. Reese is a speed freak.
You're kidding, right? You think our standing GM retired, our head of scouting was promoted, Coughlin won a Super Bowl and somehow *lost* influence during that process?
Gettleman was good / current guy is bad. This is not a complex matter. We have gotten to an abysmal talent level since Gettleman left and Ross or whoever else took over. TC has not changed and he is known as an outstanding talent evaluator. He is not responsible for the draft but I am sure he let's his vew known. If he called the talent shots and had the time to focus on that, I'd bet we'd have much better talent.
Gettleman was good / current guy is bad. This is not a complex matter. We have gotten to an abysmal talent level since Gettleman left and Ross or whoever else took over. TC has not changed and he is known as an outstanding talent evaluator. He is not responsible for the draft but I am sure he let's his vew known. If he called the talent shots and had the time to focus on that, I'd bet we'd have much better talent.
It's a bit more complex than you're making it out to be, seeing as Gettleman and Ross served in completely different roles. Other than that, clear as mud.
Can't wait til next year when the Giants win ten games under a new HC
He had a neck injury in college that the Giants failed to research, or code to ignore ? Shame on them for that - that's a #1 pick you're talking about.
He had LeSean McCoy type ability. Given that level ability (and what he could have done with it), I don't think the Giants have been hurt by losing a young running back more since Tucker Fredrickson's career ended so quickly.
he had no clue had to run or set up his blocks in the NFL. That's not something you learn. You either have it or you don't. Like Williams this year. He doesn't have it and never will. Wilson might have been a plus as a receiving option but we'll never know. He was a a bad pick the minute the card was turned in and that's no second guess. As far as Tom Coughlin being a great talent evaluator what's that based on? Once his special exemptions were gone in Jacksonville he ran that team right into the ground. His drafting was awful.
As bad as the 2014 version of the O-line is, last year's was worse (when Wilson was playing).
It's a nightmare all around. Sure, talented RBs succeed in the NFL, but they don't if they have inferior linemen blocking for them.
Remember what happened to Seattle's Sean Alexander ? He was on the way to the Hall of Fame, then he disappeared, over-night. Not because he got hurt, but because his world-beater blocking core of two Pro Bowler linemen and fullback left the team.
Before you blame Coughlin too much for his draft input..
my guess would be that Tom would lean towards one position vs another based upon his need. I really do not think that Tom has had the time to personally scout and analyze every player in the draft to the extent that our personnel dept does. Tom is most likely reading the BIASED NOTES provided by the scouts and often riddled with all kinds of garbage that Tom really cannot verify or refute.
Here is my thing...
In the first 3 rounds, you MUST find THREE guys who can start on your team....period. No excuses. In the first three rounds, you are going to have a top 100 pick out of thousands of players. Since there are starters found every year in ALL rounds of the draft, then there is no reason why you cannot select three in the first three rounds. The Giants' problem (and other teams too) is not being able to identify them OR reaching for a sleeper. When they Giants say they are going for the "best available player" and then the guy ends up out of football in two years, then they clearly dont know WTF they are looking at.
Patience as a runner absolutely is something you learn.
our success rate can be replicated if we simply fire the entire scouting staff and simply select who is next on Mel Kiper's best available list on draft day. As fucked up as that is, we probably would end up in the same place we are now as far as talent level is concerned.
Just flip on ESPN and look at Mel's list. Then go up and make your selection. Just skip over the QB's since we do not need one of those right now.
Up with to alibi for the shit job Reese does is sadly funny
Every year after a draft people are optimistic. The cost year the draft is always pretty good. Then 3 years later when 1 or 2 guys are left its forgotten and his idiot following claim that he's got this last draft right.
Pugh and Beatty are great examples. Two offensive linemen who played ok after a year or two. Then when their play turns to shit it's injury or other players next them suck or Mars is in retrograde we are supposed to forget they were high picks
Then when this team was in cap hell we are supposed to forget that too was under Reese's watch. But since the cap went up he gets another pass
My personal favorite Reese excuse is Ross. He may be the biggest culprit but who the fuck does he work for? Reese. Reese keeps him. If Teese can't see how bad he is Reese is a moron
Nothing of what I posted exonerates the coaching staff who seems To have gone stale and needs to be replaced as well. That's usually the last excuse the Reese acolytes utter when his shitty record is brought up.
Since 2007 the guy has hit maybe 3 home runs. He sucks. His staff obviously spend millions and hours compiling info that is useless.
Shit if the draft is such a crap shoot then anyone can do the job. A why not just out names on a board and throw darts be wise it may not be any better than what they do now. And keep those poor scouts home with their families.
Since 2007 the guy has hit maybe 3 home runs. He sucks. His staff obviously spend millions and hours compiling info that is useless.
Shit if the draft is such a crap shoot then anyone can do the job. A why not just out names on a board and throw darts be wise it may not be any better than what they do now. And keep those poor scouts home with their families.
Exactly, this is why I said (in the post right before yours) that we may not do any worse if we just fired the whole scouting staff which includes Ross and the rest of them... and watch ESPN the day of the draft and go with what the idiots on TV say is "best available". I am sure we could do no worse...possibly better.
I really wish someone had the TV broadcasts of the prior drafts just so we could see who the talking heads said we should pick, and then who we actually picked. I know this past year they would have had us taking the OL.
True, but it's nice to have a crystal ball handy.
2. No matter what happens in NE, they patch the holes and continue to win. This is Coaching Staff.
3. Seattle & Denver - a little bit of both
Just sayin.
Reese might be able to buy himself a reprieve but I see no logical support for keeping Ross.
2. No matter what happens in NE, they patch the holes and continue to win. This is Coaching Staff.
3. Seattle & Denver - a little bit of both
Just sayin.
Meh on Seattle & Denver, they haven't bee good long enough to be mentioned in the same breathe as Green Bay and New England. Let's see how those teams look in 3 years... Green Bay and New England have been highly competitive for the last 10 years.
One of the scary things for me is the seeming lack of progression from JPP and Pugh.
Quote:
and Bobby Wagner really hurt. Even had Wilson's not suffered the injury, he would not have been more help to the team than those three.
True, but it's nice to have a crystal ball handy.
Not needed if you were saying it at the time.
And Chris Borland.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Everybody who knows the Giants knows also that Coughlin & his staff had more input under Accorsi. It was in Urn's book. What happened since is generational in nature with a touch of professional arrogance.
What people cannot realize is that this team is now back to where they were in the pre-Young 70s. Those teams had 2 special players-Carson & Van Pelt. This team has 2 special players. Manning & Beckham. That's basically it. Reese is absolutely horrendous at what he does
Shit, for how terrible Fewell is as a DC, we won a super bowl with him as a DC. Why? We had better talent. Since that Getteleman guy left, it has been a shit-show in the draft and FA but for OBJ.
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
I wonder once Wellington died how much more influence and involvement both John and Chris have imparted over time on the team has been a factor. I have a feeling their stamp is all over this trend.
Everybody who knows the Giants knows also that Coughlin & his staff had more input under Accorsi. It was in Urn's book. What happened since is generational in nature with a touch of professional arrogance.
i'm not sure what Urn's book is, but did it talk about coughlin's influence under reese?
Quote:
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
Just look the previous drafts and where they went. Reese is a speed freak.
Quote:
In comment 12017904 Arcanum said:
Quote:
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
Thanks for clearing that up. Now, people can spread the blame accordingly. Because it's always everyone else fault, but not Coughlin's
Just look the previous drafts and where they went. Reese is a speed freak.
Then he don't know nothing about speed. Because this is one of the slowest teams in nfl
No. Beatty went right where he was meant to go. His stock was late 1st round to late 2nd round. He was the 60th pick
Frankly for all Beatty's faults there have been a fair number of high first round LT's who have substantially worse careers than Beatty.
Shit, for how terrible Fewell is as a DC, we won a super bowl with him as a DC. Why? We had better talent. Since that Getteleman guy left, it has been a shit-show in the draft and FA but for OBJ.
Given the amount of BC and Syracuse picks we've made I think Coughlin and/or Mara have had significant impact.
Coughlin doesn't sit at the combine with his stopwatch for the good of his health.
I don't remember either Reese or TC ever shown as contradicting Ross.
I came away with the belief after watching all the episodes that all the scouts propose their recommendations (perhaps TC with his stop-watch timings) and Ross sifts through everything and says, This is our guy.
Zero indication from the episodes that anyone, including Reese and TC, ever contradicted Ross. Clearly someone should have been contradicting Ross over the years and IMO that person should have been Reese and not TC because it's TC's job to coach the players and R&R's job to find the players.
Just look the previous drafts and where they went. Reese is a speed freak.
You're kidding, right? You think our standing GM retired, our head of scouting was promoted, Coughlin won a Super Bowl and somehow *lost* influence during that process?
Really?
It's a bit more complex than you're making it out to be, seeing as Gettleman and Ross served in completely different roles. Other than that, clear as mud.
What is happening to Coughlin happened to all SB winning coaches. The ships sails.
Just the way it is.
What is happening to Coughlin happened to all SB winning coaches. The ships sails.
Just the way it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV7ZqiRJlKA
He had a neck injury in college that the Giants failed to research, or code to ignore ? Shame on them for that - that's a #1 pick you're talking about.
He had LeSean McCoy type ability. Given that level ability (and what he could have done with it), I don't think the Giants have been hurt by losing a young running back more since Tucker Fredrickson's career ended so quickly.
It's a nightmare all around. Sure, talented RBs succeed in the NFL, but they don't if they have inferior linemen blocking for them.
Remember what happened to Seattle's Sean Alexander ? He was on the way to the Hall of Fame, then he disappeared, over-night. Not because he got hurt, but because his world-beater blocking core of two Pro Bowler linemen and fullback left the team.
Here is my thing...
In the first 3 rounds, you MUST find THREE guys who can start on your team....period. No excuses. In the first three rounds, you are going to have a top 100 pick out of thousands of players. Since there are starters found every year in ALL rounds of the draft, then there is no reason why you cannot select three in the first three rounds. The Giants' problem (and other teams too) is not being able to identify them OR reaching for a sleeper. When they Giants say they are going for the "best available player" and then the guy ends up out of football in two years, then they clearly dont know WTF they are looking at.
And are we really going to pull the hindsight card on the Randle pick when literally nobody had a bad thing to say about it at the time?
Just flip on ESPN and look at Mel's list. Then go up and make your selection. Just skip over the QB's since we do not need one of those right now.
Every year after a draft people are optimistic. The cost year the draft is always pretty good. Then 3 years later when 1 or 2 guys are left its forgotten and his idiot following claim that he's got this last draft right.
Pugh and Beatty are great examples. Two offensive linemen who played ok after a year or two. Then when their play turns to shit it's injury or other players next them suck or Mars is in retrograde we are supposed to forget they were high picks
Then when this team was in cap hell we are supposed to forget that too was under Reese's watch. But since the cap went up he gets another pass
My personal favorite Reese excuse is Ross. He may be the biggest culprit but who the fuck does he work for? Reese. Reese keeps him. If Teese can't see how bad he is Reese is a moron
Nothing of what I posted exonerates the coaching staff who seems To have gone stale and needs to be replaced as well. That's usually the last excuse the Reese acolytes utter when his shitty record is brought up.
Since 2007 the guy has hit maybe 3 home runs. He sucks. His staff obviously spend millions and hours compiling info that is useless.
Shit if the draft is such a crap shoot then anyone can do the job. A why not just out names on a board and throw darts be wise it may not be any better than what they do now. And keep those poor scouts home with their families.
Since 2007 the guy has hit maybe 3 home runs. He sucks. His staff obviously spend millions and hours compiling info that is useless.
Shit if the draft is such a crap shoot then anyone can do the job. A why not just out names on a board and throw darts be wise it may not be any better than what they do now. And keep those poor scouts home with their families.
Exactly, this is why I said (in the post right before yours) that we may not do any worse if we just fired the whole scouting staff which includes Ross and the rest of them... and watch ESPN the day of the draft and go with what the idiots on TV say is "best available". I am sure we could do no worse...possibly better.
I really wish someone had the TV broadcasts of the prior drafts just so we could see who the talking heads said we should pick, and then who we actually picked. I know this past year they would have had us taking the OL.