You hope that you hit on 2-3 picks each year, with your first pick hopefully being a HR. I think that we reached for Wilson but I see a good picks in there.
I would not say the first 2 rounds are crap shoots.
I think it is "common knowledge" on BBI, but I'm not sure it is common knowledge to the general fan base. And I think this is demonstrated by the continued belief by many that the Giants "have enough talent" and "coaching is the problem." I think coaching is an issue (not a huge fan of Fewell), but I've always said since the inception of BBI that players win football games.
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
Injuries to Kenny Phillips, Hakeem Nicks, David Wilson. 1st round picks are suppose to be cornerstones of your franchise and these guys never made it their second contract. The Giants were right in Phillips and Nicks is case to not give them... Even Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas got a second contract but was hurt right after. Those kind of things kill your teams future.
we all know here on BBI that Reese's drafts since 2007 have been awful. We have no depth and that is due to lousy drafting in the mid-7th round. Further, even some of the 2nd and 3rd round picks have been brutal such as Austin and the jury is still out on Randle. But there is also no doubt that we do not have a strong coaching staff.
I don't like Fewell because he has never been good since he joined us and we have seen numerous late game collapses that started his first year when we blew a 31-10 lead to the Eagles.
And we have to recognize that in his eight years with the Giants, Tom Quinn has done, at best, an adequate job. Still, we are in our current predicament because of lousy drafting forcing us to try and reach with free agency which, history has shown, never works.
Eric mentioned earlier in one of his reviews the sense of arrogance that seems to surround the Giants now. I agree and I also sense a malaise. We have guys not just on the field but in the front office and player personnel department who are doing a very poor job yet they are still here. This is the same sense of entitlement, not worried about your job that I saw in the mid-60's until George Young came along.
Frankly, right now, I am very concerned about what this organization is going to do next. I am not sure I have the confidence in John Mara or Steve Tisch to make the tough decisions that need to be made.
I mentioned this in an earlier thread - Reese is scout, not a GM
He has no concept of how to build a team top to bottom. In the mid rounds (3-4-5) he gambles on finding the next diamond in the rough when he should be drafting players or signing UFAs that can both play the game and love playing, even if they might not have superior measurables.
In the beginning of his tenure, Reese was pretty good at finding patchwork starters for the team that Accorsi built, but the core got old and Reese never did anything deliberate to replace it.
will probably get his ass canned for being dealt a team that Vince Lombardi couldn't win with, and Reese and Ross will walk away smelling like a rose. Then in Reese's post season presser we'll have to listen to him repeat himself a thousand times how everybody has to do a better job, including himself.
you have to do better in rounds three and four than the other guy or at best you are destined to mediocrity. The point is to be better than the other guy, not equal.
You do realize the Giants have five players left on their roster (out of 31 or 32) from the 2008-11 drafts? And the players left from the 2012 are mostly crap.
Currently the Giants have two starters (JPP and Beatty) that they drafted between 2008 and 2010. That's 2 players in years 5-7 of their careers...what you would expect to be the peak of a top player's career. And are either JPP or Beatty proving to be top players?
2011 and 2012 netted Prince, Williams, and Randle as major contributors (I don't know if I want to put Hosley or Jernigan in that category).
2008-2012. 5 drafts. 38 picks. JPP, Beatty, Prince, Williams, and Randle. That's a pathetic return.
Contrast that with what we did between 2004-2007. 4 drafts, 27 picks (remember Eli cost us some picks):
2004
Eli
Snee
Reggie Torbor
Gibril Wilson
Derrick Ward
2005
Webster
Tuck
Jacobs
2006
Kiwanuka
Cofield
2007
Aaron Ross
Steve Smith
Zak DeOssie
Kevin Boss
Bradshaw
The 2004-2007 period also had injuries or guys that didn't contribute here for reasons other than an inability to play: Jamaar Taylor, Gerris Wilkinson, Charlie Peprah, Guy Whimper, and Jay Alford.
Precipitous doesn't begin to describe the drop in the quality of the drafting following the 2007 season. To me that is the story of these past couple years. The 2013-2014 Giants were supposed to be anchored by those 2008-2012 draft classes, much in the way that the 2007-2011 Giants were anchored by the 2004-2007 draft classes. Obviously the quality on the field has whithered as the '04-'07 guys age out and the '08-'12 guys either replace them inadequately or fail to replace them altogether, requiring desparate FA moves all over the place.
To me that's the story of this whole situation, right there.
How many of those guys would you want to resign, or are easily, replaceable, for, in some cases, less money than you spent on them?
We know Rolle and JPP can still play(though not as good as when they were at the top of their game), but I doubt they accept what the Giants will offer....
Everybody else on that list is easily replaced, with a better player....
drafting has been terrible. Why do you think we had to go big in FA this past offseason? Because Reese messed up so many drafts, although 2013 and 2014 look a little better.
And what changed regarding the Giants' draft operation after 2007? Marc Ross, a guy who the Eagles shitcanned because he failed at running their draft, was hired.
I know I harp on this a lot, but it seems obvious to me that Marc Ross sucks at his job, and is the biggest factor in the miserable state of the team.
Three have contributed very little or are horrible..
Prince is always injured in his 4 seasons he has only 1 season when he played all 16 games.. He is a middle of the pack CB when he does play..
Williams is looking worse and worse and realistically should not be a major contribtor but we have such lack of talent at LB that he still has to play..
Randle don't even know what to say. He is nothing more than a 3rd/4th WR on bad team..
I think it is "common knowledge" on BBI, but I'm not sure it is common knowledge to the general fan base. And I think this is demonstrated by the continued belief by many that the Giants "have enough talent" and "coaching is the problem." I think coaching is an issue (not a huge fan of Fewell), but I've always said since the inception of BBI that players win football games.
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
The 2008 draft was actually very good, it just got decimated by injuries.
Phillips
Thomas
Manningham
Goff
all produced at a good level for the Giants before injury ended their career, and in Kehl's case he hung about the league for a bit before injury finally saw him off. Even with injuries the first 3 picks that year probably outperformed their draft slots.
That's not a poor draft, it's a hellishly unlucky one (although you could argue that in the case of Phillips it was a chronic issue that went undiagnosed and Thomas had already blew his ACL in college)
Three have contributed very little or are horrible..
Prince is always injured in his 4 seasons he has only 1 season when he played all 16 games.. He is a middle of the pack CB when he does play..
Williams is looking worse and worse and realistically should not be a major contribtor but we have such lack of talent at LB that he still has to play..
Randle don't even know what to say. He is nothing more than a 3rd/4th WR on bad team..
Prince has had injury issues, but they have all been to seperate parts of the body. He was playing at a high level this year before his injury. He's an above average corner who plays smart, defends the run well and makes plays.
RE: Taking Wilson over the likes of Cordy Glenn, Lavonte David
and Bobby Wagner really hurt. Even had Wilson's not suffered the injury, he would not have been more help to the team than those three.
Had Wilson not been injured and lived upto his full potential he would have never been more helpful than some of the guys you have listed there.. Wagner is one of the 3 main cogs of the best defense in the league.. Just look at what happened to their defense when he was out..
Currently the Giants have two starters (JPP and Beatty) that they drafted between 2008 and 2010. That's 2 players in years 5-7 of their careers...what you would expect to be the peak of a top player's career. And are either JPP or Beatty proving to be top players?
2011 and 2012 netted Prince, Williams, and Randle as major contributors (I don't know if I want to put Hosley or Jernigan in that category).
2008-2012. 5 drafts. 38 picks. JPP, Beatty, Prince, Williams, and Randle. That's a pathetic return.
Contrast that with what we did between 2004-2007. 4 drafts, 27 picks (remember Eli cost us some picks):
2004
Eli
Snee
Reggie Torbor
Gibril Wilson
Derrick Ward
2005
Webster
Tuck
Jacobs
2006
Kiwanuka
Cofield
2007
Aaron Ross
Steve Smith
Zak DeOssie
Kevin Boss
Bradshaw
The 2004-2007 period also had injuries or guys that didn't contribute here for reasons other than an inability to play: Jamaar Taylor, Gerris Wilkinson, Charlie Peprah, Guy Whimper, and Jay Alford.
Precipitous doesn't begin to describe the drop in the quality of the drafting following the 2007 season. To me that is the story of these past couple years. The 2013-2014 Giants were supposed to be anchored by those 2008-2012 draft classes, much in the way that the 2007-2011 Giants were anchored by the 2004-2007 draft classes. Obviously the quality on the field has whithered as the '04-'07 guys age out and the '08-'12 guys either replace them inadequately or fail to replace them altogether, requiring desparate FA moves all over the place.
To me that's the story of this whole situation, right there.
Not exactly sure why you've put Alford in there. He was another who performed well enough when called on before he got injured. In his first two years he didn't miss a game
And what changed regarding the Giants' draft operation after 2007? Marc Ross, a guy who the Eagles shitcanned because he failed at running their draft, was hired.
I know I harp on this a lot, but it seems obvious to me that Marc Ross sucks at his job, and is the biggest factor in the miserable state of the team.
I don't know enough about it to say definitively, but I have a hard time blaming all the draft failures on one person. We know there is input from every level including Coughlin and ownership.
We also shouldn't discount the possibility that whatever the problem was, it may have been corrected following 2012, because the drafts appear to have improved since then. We've already seen significant contributions from the following from the 2013-2014 classes:
2013
Pugh
Hankins
Moore (sort of)
Nassib (I consider the backup QB a major piece on any team, and Nassib's improvement from 2013 to 2014 was impressive)
2014
Beckham
Richburg
Andre Williams
Kennard
Those two classes already bear a greater resemblance to the 2004-2007 classes than the 2008-2012 classes, with one of the players (Beckham) having the potential to become one of the league's best.
Prince has had injury issues, but they have all been to seperate parts of the body. He was playing at a high level this year before his injury. He's an above average corner who plays smart, defends the run well and makes plays.
Agree with you about him being an above average CB now but other than this season he has only been average and considering he misses so many games (whatever the reason may be) he doesn't contribute enough to make this team better.. I don't want to diminish anything he does as he is the second best player of the 5 but those drafts have been bleak...
My point was that Alford got hurt before he had a chance to contribute long term. Clearly he could play.
Sorry misread.
Although I maintain that despite the lack of long term success from 2008, the draft class itself was good, injuries just prevented the players from achieving long term success.
I agree with you thats why I think Jerry should be kept after this season since the last 2 drafts have looked better.. No point firing a guy after he has learned from his mistake..
RE: RE: Taking Wilson over the likes of Cordy Glenn, Lavonte David
and Bobby Wagner really hurt. Even had Wilson's not suffered the injury, he would not have been more help to the team than those three.
Had Wilson not been injured and lived upto his full potential he would have never been more helpful than some of the guys you have listed there.. Wagner is one of the 3 main cogs of the best defense in the league.. Just look at what happened to their defense when he was out..
I just added the full potential part, as in that was such a bad draft pick that a high cieling low floor guy like Wilson didn't have a cieling higher than some of the guys you mentioned.
EA, you appear as guilty of not knowing what's going on in Charlotte as those Eric cites with regard to repeated claims that the problems with the GMen are limited to the staff.
Look at how much of the Panthers cap is being consumed by 2 halfbacks and John Beason with the Kuechly and Newton extensions looming and tell me what fire you thought Gettleman was going to light right away? He inherited a disaster that needed to be addressed with some tough decisions. If it turns out that he's a poor GM, he hasn't proven it conclusively to this point.
Holy.. read this report card
link - ( New Window )
Director of college scouting Marc Ross says Randle is an NFL-ready receiver who didn't get a ton of opportunities due to LSU's run-oriented offense. Considering that they got Virginia Tech running back David Wilson in the first round to help replace Brandon Jacobs and Randle to potentially take Manningham's spot, the Giants are off to a strong start in the draft.
This guy thought this was a great draft...lowest mark, a C for McCants....everyone an A or B....
should realize that in first year Giants drafted last, the next year, following the 08 season, low, in 2012, again last, and during the whole period, generally got to choose from a very picked over lot. So we paid a price for SBs and success, as the system is designed to ensure. As well, a significant portion of the failures were due to injuries that were genuinely unpredictable. This gives an article such as the subject one and the string of teeth gnashing and 20-20 hindsight posts that follow, the air of coming from a narrower perspective. The observation about drafting riskier prospects in the middle rounds may have some validity although when the pool of surer bets is diminished, more risk will inevitably creep in. We appear likely to have a vastly improved draft position this year.
"Common sense left the room by the third round, as New York reached for Syracuse defensive tackle Jay Bromley, when Auburn running back Tre Mason was available."
were the most puzzling to me. Wilson was a kick returner, not a halfback. He was incapable of reading the offensive line and making instantaneous adjustments as we see Jennings do every time he carries the ball. Hosley is simply too short to play corner in the NFL, never mind his inability to read receivers' moves.
RE: Taking Wilson over the likes of Cordy Glenn, Lavonte David
1. How many players on Green Bay played for other teams ? This is GM.
2. No matter what happens in NE, they patch the holes and continue to win. This is Coaching Staff.
3. Seattle & Denver - a little bit of both
Just sayin.
Meh on Seattle & Denver, they haven't bee good long enough to be mentioned in the same breathe as Green Bay and New England. Let's see how those teams look in 3 years... Green Bay and New England have been highly competitive for the last 10 years.
I think they should do whatever they can to keep Reese around
because i think he is a great player evaluator and scout. I think he won't take a demotion so some elevated title? I do think the Fish stinks from the head down so his choice of Marc Ross and then along with that some of the scouts need to be evaluated and most likely replaced. I disagree with some on here that '08 was a bad draft. The top three and arguably the top 5 were significant contributors for a few years. Where as '12 we 'gambled' or reached on every pick and '10 and '11 there were 3 significant 'contributors' out of 15 picks. If we had more 'legitimate' picks (instead of the next JPP when Jpp isn't even the next JPP)in those three years they would currently be in their prime and our roster wouldn't be made up of FA's with a history of injuries or who are past their prime and practice squad players.
On opening night of 2012 season, the chances of Wilson and Nicks being retired and washed up just 2 seasons later had to be 1%, at best. Other players like Goff and Ballard had 1 good season before their careers were pretty much finished due to knee injuries. All of these 4 guys (just examples) were all in their mid-20s.
One of the scary things for me is the seeming lack of progression from JPP and Pugh.
I think the problem has been coreected. The last two years have been good and I believe that the prior year would have been considered good if Wilson had not gotten hurt.
Was Beatty considered a reach when he was drafted in the second round?
If so its another position where our collegee player evaluation is absolutely horrendous, considering the drafting history of LB's TE's and OL for the past 6 years....
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
RE: RE: Taking Wilson over the likes of Cordy Glenn, Lavonte David
"Common sense left the room by the third round, as New York reached for Syracuse defensive tackle Jay Bromley, when Auburn running back Tre Mason was available."
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
The lack of talent, is Reese and Ross fault. How many times, in the last 3 years, has the Giants been held scoreless ? And in those games, how many times, did they actually reach the redzone ? One more thing. The Giants are the worse team in the NFL, when it comes to making 2nd half adjustment. Offensively and defensively. That's not on Reese and Ross
We have weak talent, probably bottom 5 in the league. You can make an argument that we have the worst overall talent in the league and certainly can make the argument that we have the worst O-line talent in the NFL. Someone drafting and signing free agents is doing a horrible job.
Is Tom Coughlin's boss. Have any of you people ever worked for someone? If so, do you tell your boss what to do? Tom Coughlin's primary responsibility is coaching the players he is given. That's all,
Everybody who knows the Giants knows also that Coughlin & his staff had more input under Accorsi. It was in Urn's book. What happened since is generational in nature with a touch of professional arrogance.
What people cannot realize is that this team is now back to where they were in the pre-Young 70s. Those teams had 2 special players-Carson & Van Pelt. This team has 2 special players. Manning & Beckham. That's basically it. Reese is absolutely horrendous at what he does
So all this happy horseshit about other teams have bad picks,
the draft is a crap shoot, etc., is irrelevant. The Giants have bad talent and have had bad talent for 2.5 years running now. Other teams are gathering talent better than the Giants; we need someone who can do it better.
I think TC has some say in the draft picks and FAs
but I think it is much less than people think. It is on the people whose job it is to get the players. We don't have the players. In fact, it may be only that we need a guy at X position who can do Y.
Shit, for how terrible Fewell is as a DC, we won a super bowl with him as a DC. Why? We had better talent. Since that Getteleman guy left, it has been a shit-show in the draft and FA but for OBJ.
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
I wonder once Wellington died how much more influence and involvement both John and Chris have imparted over time on the team has been a factor. I have a feeling their stamp is all over this trend.
Everybody who knows the Giants knows also that Coughlin & his staff had more input under Accorsi. It was in Urn's book. What happened since is generational in nature with a touch of professional arrogance.
i'm not sure what Urn's book is, but did it talk about coughlin's influence under reese?
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
Thanks for clearing that up. Now, people can spread the blame accordingly. Because it's always everyone else fault, but not Coughlin's
If so its another position where our collegee player evaluation is absolutely horrendous, considering the drafting history of LB's TE's and OL for the past 6 years....
No. Beatty went right where he was meant to go. His stock was late 1st round to late 2nd round. He was the 60th pick
Frankly for all Beatty's faults there have been a fair number of high first round LT's who have substantially worse careers than Beatty.
RE: I think TC has some say in the draft picks and FAs
but I think it is much less than people think. It is on the people whose job it is to get the players. We don't have the players. In fact, it may be only that we need a guy at X position who can do Y.
Shit, for how terrible Fewell is as a DC, we won a super bowl with him as a DC. Why? We had better talent. Since that Getteleman guy left, it has been a shit-show in the draft and FA but for OBJ.
Given the amount of BC and Syracuse picks we've made I think Coughlin and/or Mara have had significant impact.
Coughlin doesn't sit at the combine with his stopwatch for the good of his health.
When I watched Finding Giants, all I remember seeing
is Marc Ross saying, "This is our number one guy" before each pick.
I don't remember either Reese or TC ever shown as contradicting Ross.
I came away with the belief after watching all the episodes that all the scouts propose their recommendations (perhaps TC with his stop-watch timings) and Ross sifts through everything and says, This is our guy.
Zero indication from the episodes that anyone, including Reese and TC, ever contradicted Ross. Clearly someone should have been contradicting Ross over the years and IMO that person should have been Reese and not TC because it's TC's job to coach the players and R&R's job to find the players.
Wonder if Wilson had a congenitally narrowed C-Spine?
has as much influence under Reese as he did under Accorsi.
Just look the previous drafts and where they went. Reese is a speed freak.
You're kidding, right? You think our standing GM retired, our head of scouting was promoted, Coughlin won a Super Bowl and somehow *lost* influence during that process?
Gettleman was good / current guy is bad. This is not a complex matter. We have gotten to an abysmal talent level since Gettleman left and Ross or whoever else took over. TC has not changed and he is known as an outstanding talent evaluator. He is not responsible for the draft but I am sure he let's his vew known. If he called the talent shots and had the time to focus on that, I'd bet we'd have much better talent.
Gettleman was good / current guy is bad. This is not a complex matter. We have gotten to an abysmal talent level since Gettleman left and Ross or whoever else took over. TC has not changed and he is known as an outstanding talent evaluator. He is not responsible for the draft but I am sure he let's his vew known. If he called the talent shots and had the time to focus on that, I'd bet we'd have much better talent.
It's a bit more complex than you're making it out to be, seeing as Gettleman and Ross served in completely different roles. Other than that, clear as mud.
Can't wait til next year when the Giants win ten games under a new HC
He had a neck injury in college that the Giants failed to research, or code to ignore ? Shame on them for that - that's a #1 pick you're talking about.
He had LeSean McCoy type ability. Given that level ability (and what he could have done with it), I don't think the Giants have been hurt by losing a young running back more since Tucker Fredrickson's career ended so quickly.
he had no clue had to run or set up his blocks in the NFL. That's not something you learn. You either have it or you don't. Like Williams this year. He doesn't have it and never will. Wilson might have been a plus as a receiving option but we'll never know. He was a a bad pick the minute the card was turned in and that's no second guess. As far as Tom Coughlin being a great talent evaluator what's that based on? Once his special exemptions were gone in Jacksonville he ran that team right into the ground. His drafting was awful.
As bad as the 2014 version of the O-line is, last year's was worse (when Wilson was playing).
It's a nightmare all around. Sure, talented RBs succeed in the NFL, but they don't if they have inferior linemen blocking for them.
Remember what happened to Seattle's Sean Alexander ? He was on the way to the Hall of Fame, then he disappeared, over-night. Not because he got hurt, but because his world-beater blocking core of two Pro Bowler linemen and fullback left the team.
Before you blame Coughlin too much for his draft input..
my guess would be that Tom would lean towards one position vs another based upon his need. I really do not think that Tom has had the time to personally scout and analyze every player in the draft to the extent that our personnel dept does. Tom is most likely reading the BIASED NOTES provided by the scouts and often riddled with all kinds of garbage that Tom really cannot verify or refute.
Here is my thing...
In the first 3 rounds, you MUST find THREE guys who can start on your team....period. No excuses. In the first three rounds, you are going to have a top 100 pick out of thousands of players. Since there are starters found every year in ALL rounds of the draft, then there is no reason why you cannot select three in the first three rounds. The Giants' problem (and other teams too) is not being able to identify them OR reaching for a sleeper. When they Giants say they are going for the "best available player" and then the guy ends up out of football in two years, then they clearly dont know WTF they are looking at.
Patience as a runner absolutely is something you learn.
our success rate can be replicated if we simply fire the entire scouting staff and simply select who is next on Mel Kiper's best available list on draft day. As fucked up as that is, we probably would end up in the same place we are now as far as talent level is concerned.
Just flip on ESPN and look at Mel's list. Then go up and make your selection. Just skip over the QB's since we do not need one of those right now.
Up with to alibi for the shit job Reese does is sadly funny
Every year after a draft people are optimistic. The cost year the draft is always pretty good. Then 3 years later when 1 or 2 guys are left its forgotten and his idiot following claim that he's got this last draft right.
Pugh and Beatty are great examples. Two offensive linemen who played ok after a year or two. Then when their play turns to shit it's injury or other players next them suck or Mars is in retrograde we are supposed to forget they were high picks
Then when this team was in cap hell we are supposed to forget that too was under Reese's watch. But since the cap went up he gets another pass
My personal favorite Reese excuse is Ross. He may be the biggest culprit but who the fuck does he work for? Reese. Reese keeps him. If Teese can't see how bad he is Reese is a moron
Nothing of what I posted exonerates the coaching staff who seems To have gone stale and needs to be replaced as well. That's usually the last excuse the Reese acolytes utter when his shitty record is brought up.
Since 2007 the guy has hit maybe 3 home runs. He sucks. His staff obviously spend millions and hours compiling info that is useless.
Shit if the draft is such a crap shoot then anyone can do the job. A why not just out names on a board and throw darts be wise it may not be any better than what they do now. And keep those poor scouts home with their families.
Since 2007 the guy has hit maybe 3 home runs. He sucks. His staff obviously spend millions and hours compiling info that is useless.
Shit if the draft is such a crap shoot then anyone can do the job. A why not just out names on a board and throw darts be wise it may not be any better than what they do now. And keep those poor scouts home with their families.
Exactly, this is why I said (in the post right before yours) that we may not do any worse if we just fired the whole scouting staff which includes Ross and the rest of them... and watch ESPN the day of the draft and go with what the idiots on TV say is "best available". I am sure we could do no worse...possibly better.
I really wish someone had the TV broadcasts of the prior drafts just so we could see who the talking heads said we should pick, and then who we actually picked. I know this past year they would have had us taking the OL.
The crap shoots star after round 4.
gettleman may have been the last qualified guy we had in the front office
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
I don't like Fewell because he has never been good since he joined us and we have seen numerous late game collapses that started his first year when we blew a 31-10 lead to the Eagles.
And we have to recognize that in his eight years with the Giants, Tom Quinn has done, at best, an adequate job. Still, we are in our current predicament because of lousy drafting forcing us to try and reach with free agency which, history has shown, never works.
Eric mentioned earlier in one of his reviews the sense of arrogance that seems to surround the Giants now. I agree and I also sense a malaise. We have guys not just on the field but in the front office and player personnel department who are doing a very poor job yet they are still here. This is the same sense of entitlement, not worried about your job that I saw in the mid-60's until George Young came along.
Frankly, right now, I am very concerned about what this organization is going to do next. I am not sure I have the confidence in John Mara or Steve Tisch to make the tough decisions that need to be made.
In the beginning of his tenure, Reese was pretty good at finding patchwork starters for the team that Accorsi built, but the core got old and Reese never did anything deliberate to replace it.
Giants problem has been coaching.
You do realize the Giants have five players left on their roster (out of 31 or 32) from the 2008-11 drafts? And the players left from the 2012 are mostly crap.
How many top 100 players are on this roster?
2011 and 2012 netted Prince, Williams, and Randle as major contributors (I don't know if I want to put Hosley or Jernigan in that category).
2008-2012. 5 drafts. 38 picks. JPP, Beatty, Prince, Williams, and Randle. That's a pathetic return.
Contrast that with what we did between 2004-2007. 4 drafts, 27 picks (remember Eli cost us some picks):
2004
Eli
Snee
Reggie Torbor
Gibril Wilson
Derrick Ward
2005
Webster
Tuck
Jacobs
2006
Kiwanuka
Cofield
2007
Aaron Ross
Steve Smith
Zak DeOssie
Kevin Boss
Bradshaw
The 2004-2007 period also had injuries or guys that didn't contribute here for reasons other than an inability to play: Jamaar Taylor, Gerris Wilkinson, Charlie Peprah, Guy Whimper, and Jay Alford.
Precipitous doesn't begin to describe the drop in the quality of the drafting following the 2007 season. To me that is the story of these past couple years. The 2013-2014 Giants were supposed to be anchored by those 2008-2012 draft classes, much in the way that the 2007-2011 Giants were anchored by the 2004-2007 draft classes. Obviously the quality on the field has whithered as the '04-'07 guys age out and the '08-'12 guys either replace them inadequately or fail to replace them altogether, requiring desparate FA moves all over the place.
To me that's the story of this whole situation, right there.
http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/new-york-giants/
How many of those guys would you want to resign, or are easily, replaceable, for, in some cases, less money than you spent on them?
We know Rolle and JPP can still play(though not as good as when they were at the top of their game), but I doubt they accept what the Giants will offer....
Everybody else on that list is easily replaced, with a better player....
I know I harp on this a lot, but it seems obvious to me that Marc Ross sucks at his job, and is the biggest factor in the miserable state of the team.
Prince is always injured in his 4 seasons he has only 1 season when he played all 16 games.. He is a middle of the pack CB when he does play..
Williams is looking worse and worse and realistically should not be a major contribtor but we have such lack of talent at LB that he still has to play..
Randle don't even know what to say. He is nothing more than a 3rd/4th WR on bad team..
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
The 2008 draft was actually very good, it just got decimated by injuries.
Phillips
Thomas
Manningham
Goff
all produced at a good level for the Giants before injury ended their career, and in Kehl's case he hung about the league for a bit before injury finally saw him off. Even with injuries the first 3 picks that year probably outperformed their draft slots.
That's not a poor draft, it's a hellishly unlucky one (although you could argue that in the case of Phillips it was a chronic issue that went undiagnosed and Thomas had already blew his ACL in college)
Prince is always injured in his 4 seasons he has only 1 season when he played all 16 games.. He is a middle of the pack CB when he does play..
Williams is looking worse and worse and realistically should not be a major contribtor but we have such lack of talent at LB that he still has to play..
Randle don't even know what to say. He is nothing more than a 3rd/4th WR on bad team..
Prince has had injury issues, but they have all been to seperate parts of the body. He was playing at a high level this year before his injury. He's an above average corner who plays smart, defends the run well and makes plays.
Had Wilson not been injured and lived upto his full potential he would have never been more helpful than some of the guys you have listed there.. Wagner is one of the 3 main cogs of the best defense in the league.. Just look at what happened to their defense when he was out..
2011 and 2012 netted Prince, Williams, and Randle as major contributors (I don't know if I want to put Hosley or Jernigan in that category).
2008-2012. 5 drafts. 38 picks. JPP, Beatty, Prince, Williams, and Randle. That's a pathetic return.
Contrast that with what we did between 2004-2007. 4 drafts, 27 picks (remember Eli cost us some picks):
2004
Eli
Snee
Reggie Torbor
Gibril Wilson
Derrick Ward
2005
Webster
Tuck
Jacobs
2006
Kiwanuka
Cofield
2007
Aaron Ross
Steve Smith
Zak DeOssie
Kevin Boss
Bradshaw
The 2004-2007 period also had injuries or guys that didn't contribute here for reasons other than an inability to play: Jamaar Taylor, Gerris Wilkinson, Charlie Peprah, Guy Whimper, and Jay Alford.
Precipitous doesn't begin to describe the drop in the quality of the drafting following the 2007 season. To me that is the story of these past couple years. The 2013-2014 Giants were supposed to be anchored by those 2008-2012 draft classes, much in the way that the 2007-2011 Giants were anchored by the 2004-2007 draft classes. Obviously the quality on the field has whithered as the '04-'07 guys age out and the '08-'12 guys either replace them inadequately or fail to replace them altogether, requiring desparate FA moves all over the place.
To me that's the story of this whole situation, right there.
Not exactly sure why you've put Alford in there. He was another who performed well enough when called on before he got injured. In his first two years he didn't miss a game
2007 20 appearances: 8 tackles (1 solo), 1 sack, 5 QB hurries and 2 QB hits.
2008 17 appearances: 26 tackles (9 solo), 2.5 sacks, 3 tackles for losses, 4 QB hurries, 7 QB hits, and 1 pass defensed.
Might not be Suh, but that's not exactly the worst two years a 3rd round DT ever put in. If I remember he was the short snapper in 2007 and 2008.
I know I harp on this a lot, but it seems obvious to me that Marc Ross sucks at his job, and is the biggest factor in the miserable state of the team.
I don't know enough about it to say definitively, but I have a hard time blaming all the draft failures on one person. We know there is input from every level including Coughlin and ownership.
We also shouldn't discount the possibility that whatever the problem was, it may have been corrected following 2012, because the drafts appear to have improved since then. We've already seen significant contributions from the following from the 2013-2014 classes:
2013
Pugh
Hankins
Moore (sort of)
Nassib (I consider the backup QB a major piece on any team, and Nassib's improvement from 2013 to 2014 was impressive)
2014
Beckham
Richburg
Andre Williams
Kennard
Those two classes already bear a greater resemblance to the 2004-2007 classes than the 2008-2012 classes, with one of the players (Beckham) having the potential to become one of the league's best.
The problem may have already been corrected.
Agree with you about him being an above average CB now but other than this season he has only been average and considering he misses so many games (whatever the reason may be) he doesn't contribute enough to make this team better.. I don't want to diminish anything he does as he is the second best player of the 5 but those drafts have been bleak...
Sorry misread.
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My point was that Alford got hurt before he had a chance to contribute long term. Clearly he could play.
Sorry misread.
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and Bobby Wagner really hurt. Even had Wilson's not suffered the injury, he would not have been more help to the team than those three.
Had Wilson not been injured and lived upto his full potential he would have never been more helpful than some of the guys you have listed there.. Wagner is one of the 3 main cogs of the best defense in the league.. Just look at what happened to their defense when he was out..
I thought that's what I said.
I thought that's what I said.
I just added the full potential part, as in that was such a bad draft pick that a high cieling low floor guy like Wilson didn't have a cieling higher than some of the guys you mentioned.
EA, you appear as guilty of not knowing what's going on in Charlotte as those Eric cites with regard to repeated claims that the problems with the GMen are limited to the staff.
Look at how much of the Panthers cap is being consumed by 2 halfbacks and John Beason with the Kuechly and Newton extensions looming and tell me what fire you thought Gettleman was going to light right away? He inherited a disaster that needed to be addressed with some tough decisions. If it turns out that he's a poor GM, he hasn't proven it conclusively to this point.
Holy.. read this report card
link - ( New Window )
link - ( New Window )
Director of college scouting Marc Ross says Randle is an NFL-ready receiver who didn't get a ton of opportunities due to LSU's run-oriented offense. Considering that they got Virginia Tech running back David Wilson in the first round to help replace Brandon Jacobs and Randle to potentially take Manningham's spot, the Giants are off to a strong start in the draft.
This guy thought this was a great draft...lowest mark, a C for McCants....everyone an A or B....
True, but it's nice to have a crystal ball handy.
2. No matter what happens in NE, they patch the holes and continue to win. This is Coaching Staff.
3. Seattle & Denver - a little bit of both
Just sayin.
Reese might be able to buy himself a reprieve but I see no logical support for keeping Ross.
2. No matter what happens in NE, they patch the holes and continue to win. This is Coaching Staff.
3. Seattle & Denver - a little bit of both
Just sayin.
Meh on Seattle & Denver, they haven't bee good long enough to be mentioned in the same breathe as Green Bay and New England. Let's see how those teams look in 3 years... Green Bay and New England have been highly competitive for the last 10 years.
One of the scary things for me is the seeming lack of progression from JPP and Pugh.
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and Bobby Wagner really hurt. Even had Wilson's not suffered the injury, he would not have been more help to the team than those three.
True, but it's nice to have a crystal ball handy.
Not needed if you were saying it at the time.
And Chris Borland.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Everybody who knows the Giants knows also that Coughlin & his staff had more input under Accorsi. It was in Urn's book. What happened since is generational in nature with a touch of professional arrogance.
What people cannot realize is that this team is now back to where they were in the pre-Young 70s. Those teams had 2 special players-Carson & Van Pelt. This team has 2 special players. Manning & Beckham. That's basically it. Reese is absolutely horrendous at what he does
Shit, for how terrible Fewell is as a DC, we won a super bowl with him as a DC. Why? We had better talent. Since that Getteleman guy left, it has been a shit-show in the draft and FA but for OBJ.
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
I wonder once Wellington died how much more influence and involvement both John and Chris have imparted over time on the team has been a factor. I have a feeling their stamp is all over this trend.
Everybody who knows the Giants knows also that Coughlin & his staff had more input under Accorsi. It was in Urn's book. What happened since is generational in nature with a touch of professional arrogance.
i'm not sure what Urn's book is, but did it talk about coughlin's influence under reese?
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The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
Just look the previous drafts and where they went. Reese is a speed freak.
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In comment 12017904 Arcanum said:
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The, "Coughlin, was given a bad team." BS! The guy is part of the problem. And yet, he gets away with a lot of the blame. Reese wasn't selecting these damn players on his own. TC has a lot more say so, then people think. Enough, with "Reese and Ross, messed this team up!" Because TC did to.
I'd be curious to know from someone with an understanding of the inner workings of the Giants how much influence Coughlin has in picking the talent both college drafts and free agents on a scale of 0-10
Based on Finding Giants and also who we draft...I'd say a lot.
Thanks for clearing that up. Now, people can spread the blame accordingly. Because it's always everyone else fault, but not Coughlin's
Just look the previous drafts and where they went. Reese is a speed freak.
Then he don't know nothing about speed. Because this is one of the slowest teams in nfl
No. Beatty went right where he was meant to go. His stock was late 1st round to late 2nd round. He was the 60th pick
Frankly for all Beatty's faults there have been a fair number of high first round LT's who have substantially worse careers than Beatty.
Shit, for how terrible Fewell is as a DC, we won a super bowl with him as a DC. Why? We had better talent. Since that Getteleman guy left, it has been a shit-show in the draft and FA but for OBJ.
Given the amount of BC and Syracuse picks we've made I think Coughlin and/or Mara have had significant impact.
Coughlin doesn't sit at the combine with his stopwatch for the good of his health.
I don't remember either Reese or TC ever shown as contradicting Ross.
I came away with the belief after watching all the episodes that all the scouts propose their recommendations (perhaps TC with his stop-watch timings) and Ross sifts through everything and says, This is our guy.
Zero indication from the episodes that anyone, including Reese and TC, ever contradicted Ross. Clearly someone should have been contradicting Ross over the years and IMO that person should have been Reese and not TC because it's TC's job to coach the players and R&R's job to find the players.
Just look the previous drafts and where they went. Reese is a speed freak.
You're kidding, right? You think our standing GM retired, our head of scouting was promoted, Coughlin won a Super Bowl and somehow *lost* influence during that process?
Really?
It's a bit more complex than you're making it out to be, seeing as Gettleman and Ross served in completely different roles. Other than that, clear as mud.
What is happening to Coughlin happened to all SB winning coaches. The ships sails.
Just the way it is.
What is happening to Coughlin happened to all SB winning coaches. The ships sails.
Just the way it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV7ZqiRJlKA
He had a neck injury in college that the Giants failed to research, or code to ignore ? Shame on them for that - that's a #1 pick you're talking about.
He had LeSean McCoy type ability. Given that level ability (and what he could have done with it), I don't think the Giants have been hurt by losing a young running back more since Tucker Fredrickson's career ended so quickly.
It's a nightmare all around. Sure, talented RBs succeed in the NFL, but they don't if they have inferior linemen blocking for them.
Remember what happened to Seattle's Sean Alexander ? He was on the way to the Hall of Fame, then he disappeared, over-night. Not because he got hurt, but because his world-beater blocking core of two Pro Bowler linemen and fullback left the team.
Here is my thing...
In the first 3 rounds, you MUST find THREE guys who can start on your team....period. No excuses. In the first three rounds, you are going to have a top 100 pick out of thousands of players. Since there are starters found every year in ALL rounds of the draft, then there is no reason why you cannot select three in the first three rounds. The Giants' problem (and other teams too) is not being able to identify them OR reaching for a sleeper. When they Giants say they are going for the "best available player" and then the guy ends up out of football in two years, then they clearly dont know WTF they are looking at.
And are we really going to pull the hindsight card on the Randle pick when literally nobody had a bad thing to say about it at the time?
Just flip on ESPN and look at Mel's list. Then go up and make your selection. Just skip over the QB's since we do not need one of those right now.
Every year after a draft people are optimistic. The cost year the draft is always pretty good. Then 3 years later when 1 or 2 guys are left its forgotten and his idiot following claim that he's got this last draft right.
Pugh and Beatty are great examples. Two offensive linemen who played ok after a year or two. Then when their play turns to shit it's injury or other players next them suck or Mars is in retrograde we are supposed to forget they were high picks
Then when this team was in cap hell we are supposed to forget that too was under Reese's watch. But since the cap went up he gets another pass
My personal favorite Reese excuse is Ross. He may be the biggest culprit but who the fuck does he work for? Reese. Reese keeps him. If Teese can't see how bad he is Reese is a moron
Nothing of what I posted exonerates the coaching staff who seems To have gone stale and needs to be replaced as well. That's usually the last excuse the Reese acolytes utter when his shitty record is brought up.
Since 2007 the guy has hit maybe 3 home runs. He sucks. His staff obviously spend millions and hours compiling info that is useless.
Shit if the draft is such a crap shoot then anyone can do the job. A why not just out names on a board and throw darts be wise it may not be any better than what they do now. And keep those poor scouts home with their families.
Since 2007 the guy has hit maybe 3 home runs. He sucks. His staff obviously spend millions and hours compiling info that is useless.
Shit if the draft is such a crap shoot then anyone can do the job. A why not just out names on a board and throw darts be wise it may not be any better than what they do now. And keep those poor scouts home with their families.
Exactly, this is why I said (in the post right before yours) that we may not do any worse if we just fired the whole scouting staff which includes Ross and the rest of them... and watch ESPN the day of the draft and go with what the idiots on TV say is "best available". I am sure we could do no worse...possibly better.
I really wish someone had the TV broadcasts of the prior drafts just so we could see who the talking heads said we should pick, and then who we actually picked. I know this past year they would have had us taking the OL.