You hope that you hit on 2-3 picks each year, with your first pick hopefully being a HR. I think that we reached for Wilson but I see a good picks in there.
I would not say the first 2 rounds are crap shoots.
I think it is "common knowledge" on BBI, but I'm not sure it is common knowledge to the general fan base. And I think this is demonstrated by the continued belief by many that the Giants "have enough talent" and "coaching is the problem." I think coaching is an issue (not a huge fan of Fewell), but I've always said since the inception of BBI that players win football games.
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
Injuries to Kenny Phillips, Hakeem Nicks, David Wilson. 1st round picks are suppose to be cornerstones of your franchise and these guys never made it their second contract. The Giants were right in Phillips and Nicks is case to not give them... Even Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas got a second contract but was hurt right after. Those kind of things kill your teams future.
we all know here on BBI that Reese's drafts since 2007 have been awful. We have no depth and that is due to lousy drafting in the mid-7th round. Further, even some of the 2nd and 3rd round picks have been brutal such as Austin and the jury is still out on Randle. But there is also no doubt that we do not have a strong coaching staff.
I don't like Fewell because he has never been good since he joined us and we have seen numerous late game collapses that started his first year when we blew a 31-10 lead to the Eagles.
And we have to recognize that in his eight years with the Giants, Tom Quinn has done, at best, an adequate job. Still, we are in our current predicament because of lousy drafting forcing us to try and reach with free agency which, history has shown, never works.
Eric mentioned earlier in one of his reviews the sense of arrogance that seems to surround the Giants now. I agree and I also sense a malaise. We have guys not just on the field but in the front office and player personnel department who are doing a very poor job yet they are still here. This is the same sense of entitlement, not worried about your job that I saw in the mid-60's until George Young came along.
Frankly, right now, I am very concerned about what this organization is going to do next. I am not sure I have the confidence in John Mara or Steve Tisch to make the tough decisions that need to be made.
I mentioned this in an earlier thread - Reese is scout, not a GM
He has no concept of how to build a team top to bottom. In the mid rounds (3-4-5) he gambles on finding the next diamond in the rough when he should be drafting players or signing UFAs that can both play the game and love playing, even if they might not have superior measurables.
In the beginning of his tenure, Reese was pretty good at finding patchwork starters for the team that Accorsi built, but the core got old and Reese never did anything deliberate to replace it.
will probably get his ass canned for being dealt a team that Vince Lombardi couldn't win with, and Reese and Ross will walk away smelling like a rose. Then in Reese's post season presser we'll have to listen to him repeat himself a thousand times how everybody has to do a better job, including himself.
you have to do better in rounds three and four than the other guy or at best you are destined to mediocrity. The point is to be better than the other guy, not equal.
You do realize the Giants have five players left on their roster (out of 31 or 32) from the 2008-11 drafts? And the players left from the 2012 are mostly crap.
Currently the Giants have two starters (JPP and Beatty) that they drafted between 2008 and 2010. That's 2 players in years 5-7 of their careers...what you would expect to be the peak of a top player's career. And are either JPP or Beatty proving to be top players?
2011 and 2012 netted Prince, Williams, and Randle as major contributors (I don't know if I want to put Hosley or Jernigan in that category).
2008-2012. 5 drafts. 38 picks. JPP, Beatty, Prince, Williams, and Randle. That's a pathetic return.
Contrast that with what we did between 2004-2007. 4 drafts, 27 picks (remember Eli cost us some picks):
2004
Eli
Snee
Reggie Torbor
Gibril Wilson
Derrick Ward
2005
Webster
Tuck
Jacobs
2006
Kiwanuka
Cofield
2007
Aaron Ross
Steve Smith
Zak DeOssie
Kevin Boss
Bradshaw
The 2004-2007 period also had injuries or guys that didn't contribute here for reasons other than an inability to play: Jamaar Taylor, Gerris Wilkinson, Charlie Peprah, Guy Whimper, and Jay Alford.
Precipitous doesn't begin to describe the drop in the quality of the drafting following the 2007 season. To me that is the story of these past couple years. The 2013-2014 Giants were supposed to be anchored by those 2008-2012 draft classes, much in the way that the 2007-2011 Giants were anchored by the 2004-2007 draft classes. Obviously the quality on the field has whithered as the '04-'07 guys age out and the '08-'12 guys either replace them inadequately or fail to replace them altogether, requiring desparate FA moves all over the place.
To me that's the story of this whole situation, right there.
How many of those guys would you want to resign, or are easily, replaceable, for, in some cases, less money than you spent on them?
We know Rolle and JPP can still play(though not as good as when they were at the top of their game), but I doubt they accept what the Giants will offer....
Everybody else on that list is easily replaced, with a better player....
drafting has been terrible. Why do you think we had to go big in FA this past offseason? Because Reese messed up so many drafts, although 2013 and 2014 look a little better.
And what changed regarding the Giants' draft operation after 2007? Marc Ross, a guy who the Eagles shitcanned because he failed at running their draft, was hired.
I know I harp on this a lot, but it seems obvious to me that Marc Ross sucks at his job, and is the biggest factor in the miserable state of the team.
Three have contributed very little or are horrible..
Prince is always injured in his 4 seasons he has only 1 season when he played all 16 games.. He is a middle of the pack CB when he does play..
Williams is looking worse and worse and realistically should not be a major contribtor but we have such lack of talent at LB that he still has to play..
Randle don't even know what to say. He is nothing more than a 3rd/4th WR on bad team..
I think it is "common knowledge" on BBI, but I'm not sure it is common knowledge to the general fan base. And I think this is demonstrated by the continued belief by many that the Giants "have enough talent" and "coaching is the problem." I think coaching is an issue (not a huge fan of Fewell), but I've always said since the inception of BBI that players win football games.
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
The 2008 draft was actually very good, it just got decimated by injuries.
Phillips
Thomas
Manningham
Goff
all produced at a good level for the Giants before injury ended their career, and in Kehl's case he hung about the league for a bit before injury finally saw him off. Even with injuries the first 3 picks that year probably outperformed their draft slots.
That's not a poor draft, it's a hellishly unlucky one (although you could argue that in the case of Phillips it was a chronic issue that went undiagnosed and Thomas had already blew his ACL in college)
Three have contributed very little or are horrible..
Prince is always injured in his 4 seasons he has only 1 season when he played all 16 games.. He is a middle of the pack CB when he does play..
Williams is looking worse and worse and realistically should not be a major contribtor but we have such lack of talent at LB that he still has to play..
Randle don't even know what to say. He is nothing more than a 3rd/4th WR on bad team..
Prince has had injury issues, but they have all been to seperate parts of the body. He was playing at a high level this year before his injury. He's an above average corner who plays smart, defends the run well and makes plays.
RE: Taking Wilson over the likes of Cordy Glenn, Lavonte David
and Bobby Wagner really hurt. Even had Wilson's not suffered the injury, he would not have been more help to the team than those three.
Had Wilson not been injured and lived upto his full potential he would have never been more helpful than some of the guys you have listed there.. Wagner is one of the 3 main cogs of the best defense in the league.. Just look at what happened to their defense when he was out..
Currently the Giants have two starters (JPP and Beatty) that they drafted between 2008 and 2010. That's 2 players in years 5-7 of their careers...what you would expect to be the peak of a top player's career. And are either JPP or Beatty proving to be top players?
2011 and 2012 netted Prince, Williams, and Randle as major contributors (I don't know if I want to put Hosley or Jernigan in that category).
2008-2012. 5 drafts. 38 picks. JPP, Beatty, Prince, Williams, and Randle. That's a pathetic return.
Contrast that with what we did between 2004-2007. 4 drafts, 27 picks (remember Eli cost us some picks):
2004
Eli
Snee
Reggie Torbor
Gibril Wilson
Derrick Ward
2005
Webster
Tuck
Jacobs
2006
Kiwanuka
Cofield
2007
Aaron Ross
Steve Smith
Zak DeOssie
Kevin Boss
Bradshaw
The 2004-2007 period also had injuries or guys that didn't contribute here for reasons other than an inability to play: Jamaar Taylor, Gerris Wilkinson, Charlie Peprah, Guy Whimper, and Jay Alford.
Precipitous doesn't begin to describe the drop in the quality of the drafting following the 2007 season. To me that is the story of these past couple years. The 2013-2014 Giants were supposed to be anchored by those 2008-2012 draft classes, much in the way that the 2007-2011 Giants were anchored by the 2004-2007 draft classes. Obviously the quality on the field has whithered as the '04-'07 guys age out and the '08-'12 guys either replace them inadequately or fail to replace them altogether, requiring desparate FA moves all over the place.
To me that's the story of this whole situation, right there.
Not exactly sure why you've put Alford in there. He was another who performed well enough when called on before he got injured. In his first two years he didn't miss a game
And what changed regarding the Giants' draft operation after 2007? Marc Ross, a guy who the Eagles shitcanned because he failed at running their draft, was hired.
I know I harp on this a lot, but it seems obvious to me that Marc Ross sucks at his job, and is the biggest factor in the miserable state of the team.
I don't know enough about it to say definitively, but I have a hard time blaming all the draft failures on one person. We know there is input from every level including Coughlin and ownership.
We also shouldn't discount the possibility that whatever the problem was, it may have been corrected following 2012, because the drafts appear to have improved since then. We've already seen significant contributions from the following from the 2013-2014 classes:
2013
Pugh
Hankins
Moore (sort of)
Nassib (I consider the backup QB a major piece on any team, and Nassib's improvement from 2013 to 2014 was impressive)
2014
Beckham
Richburg
Andre Williams
Kennard
Those two classes already bear a greater resemblance to the 2004-2007 classes than the 2008-2012 classes, with one of the players (Beckham) having the potential to become one of the league's best.
Prince has had injury issues, but they have all been to seperate parts of the body. He was playing at a high level this year before his injury. He's an above average corner who plays smart, defends the run well and makes plays.
Agree with you about him being an above average CB now but other than this season he has only been average and considering he misses so many games (whatever the reason may be) he doesn't contribute enough to make this team better.. I don't want to diminish anything he does as he is the second best player of the 5 but those drafts have been bleak...
My point was that Alford got hurt before he had a chance to contribute long term. Clearly he could play.
Sorry misread.
Although I maintain that despite the lack of long term success from 2008, the draft class itself was good, injuries just prevented the players from achieving long term success.
I agree with you thats why I think Jerry should be kept after this season since the last 2 drafts have looked better.. No point firing a guy after he has learned from his mistake..
RE: RE: Taking Wilson over the likes of Cordy Glenn, Lavonte David
and Bobby Wagner really hurt. Even had Wilson's not suffered the injury, he would not have been more help to the team than those three.
Had Wilson not been injured and lived upto his full potential he would have never been more helpful than some of the guys you have listed there.. Wagner is one of the 3 main cogs of the best defense in the league.. Just look at what happened to their defense when he was out..
I just added the full potential part, as in that was such a bad draft pick that a high cieling low floor guy like Wilson didn't have a cieling higher than some of the guys you mentioned.
EA, you appear as guilty of not knowing what's going on in Charlotte as those Eric cites with regard to repeated claims that the problems with the GMen are limited to the staff.
Look at how much of the Panthers cap is being consumed by 2 halfbacks and John Beason with the Kuechly and Newton extensions looming and tell me what fire you thought Gettleman was going to light right away? He inherited a disaster that needed to be addressed with some tough decisions. If it turns out that he's a poor GM, he hasn't proven it conclusively to this point.
Holy.. read this report card
link - ( New Window )
Director of college scouting Marc Ross says Randle is an NFL-ready receiver who didn't get a ton of opportunities due to LSU's run-oriented offense. Considering that they got Virginia Tech running back David Wilson in the first round to help replace Brandon Jacobs and Randle to potentially take Manningham's spot, the Giants are off to a strong start in the draft.
This guy thought this was a great draft...lowest mark, a C for McCants....everyone an A or B....
should realize that in first year Giants drafted last, the next year, following the 08 season, low, in 2012, again last, and during the whole period, generally got to choose from a very picked over lot. So we paid a price for SBs and success, as the system is designed to ensure. As well, a significant portion of the failures were due to injuries that were genuinely unpredictable. This gives an article such as the subject one and the string of teeth gnashing and 20-20 hindsight posts that follow, the air of coming from a narrower perspective. The observation about drafting riskier prospects in the middle rounds may have some validity although when the pool of surer bets is diminished, more risk will inevitably creep in. We appear likely to have a vastly improved draft position this year.
"Common sense left the room by the third round, as New York reached for Syracuse defensive tackle Jay Bromley, when Auburn running back Tre Mason was available."
were the most puzzling to me. Wilson was a kick returner, not a halfback. He was incapable of reading the offensive line and making instantaneous adjustments as we see Jennings do every time he carries the ball. Hosley is simply too short to play corner in the NFL, never mind his inability to read receivers' moves.
RE: Taking Wilson over the likes of Cordy Glenn, Lavonte David
The crap shoots star after round 4.
gettleman may have been the last qualified guy we had in the front office
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
I don't like Fewell because he has never been good since he joined us and we have seen numerous late game collapses that started his first year when we blew a 31-10 lead to the Eagles.
And we have to recognize that in his eight years with the Giants, Tom Quinn has done, at best, an adequate job. Still, we are in our current predicament because of lousy drafting forcing us to try and reach with free agency which, history has shown, never works.
Eric mentioned earlier in one of his reviews the sense of arrogance that seems to surround the Giants now. I agree and I also sense a malaise. We have guys not just on the field but in the front office and player personnel department who are doing a very poor job yet they are still here. This is the same sense of entitlement, not worried about your job that I saw in the mid-60's until George Young came along.
Frankly, right now, I am very concerned about what this organization is going to do next. I am not sure I have the confidence in John Mara or Steve Tisch to make the tough decisions that need to be made.
In the beginning of his tenure, Reese was pretty good at finding patchwork starters for the team that Accorsi built, but the core got old and Reese never did anything deliberate to replace it.
Giants problem has been coaching.
You do realize the Giants have five players left on their roster (out of 31 or 32) from the 2008-11 drafts? And the players left from the 2012 are mostly crap.
How many top 100 players are on this roster?
2011 and 2012 netted Prince, Williams, and Randle as major contributors (I don't know if I want to put Hosley or Jernigan in that category).
2008-2012. 5 drafts. 38 picks. JPP, Beatty, Prince, Williams, and Randle. That's a pathetic return.
Contrast that with what we did between 2004-2007. 4 drafts, 27 picks (remember Eli cost us some picks):
2004
Eli
Snee
Reggie Torbor
Gibril Wilson
Derrick Ward
2005
Webster
Tuck
Jacobs
2006
Kiwanuka
Cofield
2007
Aaron Ross
Steve Smith
Zak DeOssie
Kevin Boss
Bradshaw
The 2004-2007 period also had injuries or guys that didn't contribute here for reasons other than an inability to play: Jamaar Taylor, Gerris Wilkinson, Charlie Peprah, Guy Whimper, and Jay Alford.
Precipitous doesn't begin to describe the drop in the quality of the drafting following the 2007 season. To me that is the story of these past couple years. The 2013-2014 Giants were supposed to be anchored by those 2008-2012 draft classes, much in the way that the 2007-2011 Giants were anchored by the 2004-2007 draft classes. Obviously the quality on the field has whithered as the '04-'07 guys age out and the '08-'12 guys either replace them inadequately or fail to replace them altogether, requiring desparate FA moves all over the place.
To me that's the story of this whole situation, right there.
http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/new-york-giants/
How many of those guys would you want to resign, or are easily, replaceable, for, in some cases, less money than you spent on them?
We know Rolle and JPP can still play(though not as good as when they were at the top of their game), but I doubt they accept what the Giants will offer....
Everybody else on that list is easily replaced, with a better player....
I know I harp on this a lot, but it seems obvious to me that Marc Ross sucks at his job, and is the biggest factor in the miserable state of the team.
Prince is always injured in his 4 seasons he has only 1 season when he played all 16 games.. He is a middle of the pack CB when he does play..
Williams is looking worse and worse and realistically should not be a major contribtor but we have such lack of talent at LB that he still has to play..
Randle don't even know what to say. He is nothing more than a 3rd/4th WR on bad team..
If there is one knock on this article, he didn't go back far enough 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts are pretty bare.
The 2008 draft was actually very good, it just got decimated by injuries.
Phillips
Thomas
Manningham
Goff
all produced at a good level for the Giants before injury ended their career, and in Kehl's case he hung about the league for a bit before injury finally saw him off. Even with injuries the first 3 picks that year probably outperformed their draft slots.
That's not a poor draft, it's a hellishly unlucky one (although you could argue that in the case of Phillips it was a chronic issue that went undiagnosed and Thomas had already blew his ACL in college)
Prince is always injured in his 4 seasons he has only 1 season when he played all 16 games.. He is a middle of the pack CB when he does play..
Williams is looking worse and worse and realistically should not be a major contribtor but we have such lack of talent at LB that he still has to play..
Randle don't even know what to say. He is nothing more than a 3rd/4th WR on bad team..
Prince has had injury issues, but they have all been to seperate parts of the body. He was playing at a high level this year before his injury. He's an above average corner who plays smart, defends the run well and makes plays.
Had Wilson not been injured and lived upto his full potential he would have never been more helpful than some of the guys you have listed there.. Wagner is one of the 3 main cogs of the best defense in the league.. Just look at what happened to their defense when he was out..
2011 and 2012 netted Prince, Williams, and Randle as major contributors (I don't know if I want to put Hosley or Jernigan in that category).
2008-2012. 5 drafts. 38 picks. JPP, Beatty, Prince, Williams, and Randle. That's a pathetic return.
Contrast that with what we did between 2004-2007. 4 drafts, 27 picks (remember Eli cost us some picks):
2004
Eli
Snee
Reggie Torbor
Gibril Wilson
Derrick Ward
2005
Webster
Tuck
Jacobs
2006
Kiwanuka
Cofield
2007
Aaron Ross
Steve Smith
Zak DeOssie
Kevin Boss
Bradshaw
The 2004-2007 period also had injuries or guys that didn't contribute here for reasons other than an inability to play: Jamaar Taylor, Gerris Wilkinson, Charlie Peprah, Guy Whimper, and Jay Alford.
Precipitous doesn't begin to describe the drop in the quality of the drafting following the 2007 season. To me that is the story of these past couple years. The 2013-2014 Giants were supposed to be anchored by those 2008-2012 draft classes, much in the way that the 2007-2011 Giants were anchored by the 2004-2007 draft classes. Obviously the quality on the field has whithered as the '04-'07 guys age out and the '08-'12 guys either replace them inadequately or fail to replace them altogether, requiring desparate FA moves all over the place.
To me that's the story of this whole situation, right there.
Not exactly sure why you've put Alford in there. He was another who performed well enough when called on before he got injured. In his first two years he didn't miss a game
2007 20 appearances: 8 tackles (1 solo), 1 sack, 5 QB hurries and 2 QB hits.
2008 17 appearances: 26 tackles (9 solo), 2.5 sacks, 3 tackles for losses, 4 QB hurries, 7 QB hits, and 1 pass defensed.
Might not be Suh, but that's not exactly the worst two years a 3rd round DT ever put in. If I remember he was the short snapper in 2007 and 2008.
I know I harp on this a lot, but it seems obvious to me that Marc Ross sucks at his job, and is the biggest factor in the miserable state of the team.
I don't know enough about it to say definitively, but I have a hard time blaming all the draft failures on one person. We know there is input from every level including Coughlin and ownership.
We also shouldn't discount the possibility that whatever the problem was, it may have been corrected following 2012, because the drafts appear to have improved since then. We've already seen significant contributions from the following from the 2013-2014 classes:
2013
Pugh
Hankins
Moore (sort of)
Nassib (I consider the backup QB a major piece on any team, and Nassib's improvement from 2013 to 2014 was impressive)
2014
Beckham
Richburg
Andre Williams
Kennard
Those two classes already bear a greater resemblance to the 2004-2007 classes than the 2008-2012 classes, with one of the players (Beckham) having the potential to become one of the league's best.
The problem may have already been corrected.
Agree with you about him being an above average CB now but other than this season he has only been average and considering he misses so many games (whatever the reason may be) he doesn't contribute enough to make this team better.. I don't want to diminish anything he does as he is the second best player of the 5 but those drafts have been bleak...
Sorry misread.
Quote:
My point was that Alford got hurt before he had a chance to contribute long term. Clearly he could play.
Sorry misread.
Quote:
and Bobby Wagner really hurt. Even had Wilson's not suffered the injury, he would not have been more help to the team than those three.
Had Wilson not been injured and lived upto his full potential he would have never been more helpful than some of the guys you have listed there.. Wagner is one of the 3 main cogs of the best defense in the league.. Just look at what happened to their defense when he was out..
I thought that's what I said.
I thought that's what I said.
I just added the full potential part, as in that was such a bad draft pick that a high cieling low floor guy like Wilson didn't have a cieling higher than some of the guys you mentioned.
EA, you appear as guilty of not knowing what's going on in Charlotte as those Eric cites with regard to repeated claims that the problems with the GMen are limited to the staff.
Look at how much of the Panthers cap is being consumed by 2 halfbacks and John Beason with the Kuechly and Newton extensions looming and tell me what fire you thought Gettleman was going to light right away? He inherited a disaster that needed to be addressed with some tough decisions. If it turns out that he's a poor GM, he hasn't proven it conclusively to this point.
Holy.. read this report card
link - ( New Window )
link - ( New Window )
Director of college scouting Marc Ross says Randle is an NFL-ready receiver who didn't get a ton of opportunities due to LSU's run-oriented offense. Considering that they got Virginia Tech running back David Wilson in the first round to help replace Brandon Jacobs and Randle to potentially take Manningham's spot, the Giants are off to a strong start in the draft.
This guy thought this was a great draft...lowest mark, a C for McCants....everyone an A or B....
True, but it's nice to have a crystal ball handy.
2. No matter what happens in NE, they patch the holes and continue to win. This is Coaching Staff.
3. Seattle & Denver - a little bit of both
Just sayin.