One thing that seems clear from this year is how well this offense suits Eli and the receivers. Terrible line play is sabotaging us, but Eli and this offense is making Ruben Randle look like he should be a starting WR. That's an accomplishment all its own.
He is probably my favorite person to listen to about football Â
He's very fair with his evaluations. He doesn't have an agenda. He doesn't pretend to know everything. He doesn't make irrational statements. He just makes educated opinions on film he watches. I don't always agree with what he sees but I respect his opinion.
We thought he was done last season, and found out that he had actually signed a small extension before the season that we either forgot about or was never reported.
I would love for TC and McAdoo to come back with some real talent beginning with the OL.
However, they replaced a good part of the offensive staff this past offseason, and given TC coming back, it's fairly certain that most of the defensive staff needs to go along with Fewell.
Can TC attract an excellent DC?
Would it be better to bring in a new HC who has been a great DC? (like Todd Bowles)
If you do that, you can leave the offensive staff alone and let the new guy build an old school Giants defense.
'Improvements' in an offense that's still won only 3 games isn't much to get locked into at this point. Hell, OBJ accounts for a fair amount of improvement all by himself. And just look at all the room for improvement that still remains.
Cosell is one of the few 'experts' that I pay attention too. Â
just tell whoever is hired as HC that bmac is staying on as OC.
No one is turning down one of the plum coaching jobs in sports over that. And if they do, you are probably better off without them.
Any intelligent person would understand the extraordinarily difficult process of firing a coach such as Coughlin and the additional complications that would arise in such a situation.
Plus, what's to say the new HC would not want a bright young guy like McAdoo?
just tell whoever is hired as HC that bmac is staying on as OC.
No one is turning down one of the plum coaching jobs in sports over that. And if they do, you are probably better off without them.
Any intelligent person would understand the extraordinarily difficult process of firing a coach such as Coughlin and the additional complications that would arise in such a situation.
Plus, what's to say the new HC would not want a bright young guy like McAdoo?
If you decide to make a change you need to let the coach you bring in pick his own staff. Telling the new coach you have to keep certain members of the staff isn't a good way of doing business.
I would hazard to guess many possible hires would see it as interference from the owners/GM and shy away.
I would love to find a way to have Coughlin retire, step into some sort of personnel role, and hand over the reigns to McAdoo. TC's around for continuity's sake, the offense remains the same, and we see if McAdoo is up to the challenge. McAdoo hires a full staff, including positional coaches (where he wants changes), and we go from there.
I think it's a year or two too early for McAdoo to take over. Â
I dont think he's prepared to make the jump right to HC. This was only his first year as even anything above a positional coach.
That's what mucks this all up. I do think he was hired with the possibility of him being Tom's successor when Tom hung it up but I don't think the FO ever envisioned the team being worse this year than last.
I think they assumed we'd at least improve slightly so that it we'd feel things were trending back in the "right" direction.
..his evaluation of the tape he sees the Giants pass game getting better.
He says the o line sucks, which we all know.
I thought it was funny how on the second interview posted in this thread, he says the same thing and the interviewer is shocked he has a positive thing to say about Eli and the offense. What is it about Eli that is so polarizing. It really is fascinating.
All that growth would be for naught if you install a new system next year. That is his main point. The Giants really have created an odd situation. Although that is assuming they are considering getting rid of TC at all. Many, in and out of the media, assume that, but on the inside they may have a different plan. Ownership may have realized what this season was in all about from the get go. Year one of a rebuild.
Bigger problem is the defense. That is the true issue. If you replace Fewell you have basically changed over TC's whole staff except him. I have never seen that before in the NFL.
But the DC has already changed three times.. Coughlin started with Lewis, went to Spagnuolo to Sheridan to Fewell. 4 different DC's in Coughlin's 11 year tenure here.
I agree with Eric: going to a worse state than we have in 2014 would be a "huge mistake".
Can anyone make the argument that going to a worse state than we have in 2014 is a good thing or is the argument that it would be a huge mistake?
In fact, I trump Eric: if we are worse in 2015 than we are today it would be unimaginable; the only way to imagine such a state is to bring R&R and Fewell back and let Reese go on another FA spending spree, have Ross manage the 2015 Draft and have Fewell devise a defense against the dive and QB keeper. Einstein's definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again in the hope of getting a different result.
But the DC has already changed three times.. Coughlin started with Lewis, went to Spagnuolo to Sheridan to Fewell. 4 different DC's in Coughlin's 11 year tenure here.
And we're on our 3rd OC.
True
It can mean mistake without being a "huge" mistake. Â
I don't think anyone's having trouble understanding that step back = less good.. but a) that doesn't mean it has to be a huge mistake and b) step back can also be short term
I was working from home watching his show on ESPNU.
Cosell is fantastic. He does a great job of being unbiased while telling what the film says. Easily one of my favs...
I completely agree with him. In fact I've told a couple of friends that I watch the Gmen games with the same thing.
I think Coughlin stays for one more year, no extension, while McAdoo continues to be our OC. I also feel that just like last year the Gmen will shit-can one of their coordinators...Fewell will be shown the door.
Not sure the Gmen will get rid of Reese, but I think it's time for him to go too. For sure Ross needs to go and he might be the fall guy in this whole mess. The lack of talent/depth on this roster is a direct reflection of those guys, especially with the OL and LB the last 3 seasons.
Also, we don't know the terms of McAdoo's contract. Chances are there isn't a clause that voids his contract if there is a change at the head coach position, but it's possible. If there isn't such a clause, the Giants could potentially fire Coughlin and bring in a head coach from the defensive side of the ball who retains McAdoo as his offensive coordinator. In which case, there would be no step backwards despite a change at the head coaching position
But the DC has already changed three times.. Coughlin started with Lewis, went to Spagnuolo to Sheridan to Fewell. 4 different DC's in Coughlin's 11 year tenure here.
And we're on our 3rd OC.
Really excellent point Arc. Out of those 7 coordinators only one (Spags) left to take a promotion. All the others that have left did so because they failed to put a good product on the field consistently. What does that say about Tom Coughlin? Pretty damning evidence. They all had to be fired rather than fixed or taught by our head coach. It mirrors the point that many of us make regarding the lack of improvement in the play of much of our roster.
arcarsenal: You're right- I'm not familiar with the concept of Â
deliberately taking a step backwards to go forward. Applying the law of physics, isn't that hard to do? Where does the momentum come from to get you moving forward in that situation.
I like the Offensive momentum we have now in that Eli's INTs are way down vs. prior years even though he has a worse OL than last year, no Cruz, an inconsistent WR in Randle and a fumbler and bumbler TE in Donnell
RE: arcaresenal: are you saying that being worse in 2015 than we are Â
deliberately taking a step backwards to go forward. Applying the law of physics, isn't that hard to do? Where does the momentum come from to get you moving forward in that situation.
I like the Offensive momentum we have now in that Eli's INTs are way down vs. prior years even though he has a worse OL than last year, no Cruz, an inconsistent WR in Randle and a fumbler and bumbler TE in Donnell
It has nothing to do with physics.
Think of it this way:
I don't know if you're a basketball fan but in the NBA if you're a middling team, you can get stuck in NBA purgatory where you never get a good enough draft pick to grab a franchise player and you're never good enough to win a championship. You just kind of hang in no mans land.
One way out is to be the worst team in the league or one of the worst teams, get a top pick, draft a franchise changer and build a team around him.
Thus, you take a step back to burn it all down and rebuild a much better product than the one stuck in limbo with its wheels stuck in the mud.
Again, I like McAdoo and would prefer we kept going down this road with this offense. But taking a step back doesn't have to be permanent and it could potentially result in a better future.
I can't predict what will happen either way so I don't know which decision will leave us in a better place long-term.
Eli needs the complete package (o-line, running game, receivers). He doesn't have it with this team.
I can't imagine the Giants giving McAdoo one year and then letting him go.
Fewell ... he has had his struggles throughout his tenure here. I don't blame him completely, I don't think the front office has done a very good job providing him with quality players. It sounds like D-Moore is not a good fit in this defense (3-4 olb maybe?).
For me, it comes back to the front office every time.
I don't know how much farther we can "step back". We are in one of those shitty situations where we have nowhere to go but up.
Over the past three years, we have been going backwards ALREADY with the current group of couches and office personnel. What exactly will make next year different (BETTER) than this year if they stay? Coughlin is not changing his stripes. We already do not trust Reese and his ability to fix the O-line. So... where do we get any confidence from?
But the DC has already changed three times.. Coughlin started with Lewis, went to Spagnuolo to Sheridan to Fewell. 4 different DC's in Coughlin's 11 year tenure here.
And we're on our 3rd OC.
True
Cowher had musical coordinators as well until he finally got Dick L. Back and Whisenhunt as an OC. Things worked well then. Irony is that Gilbride and Tim Lewis were his coordinators at don't point too.
another thing. Pit management basically did the same thing as giants FO. They forced Arians out and brought in Haley. No one is saying that Tomlin has been undermined and all that.
check this out as well...How many Coordinators has belichik gone through in NE. how about Marvin in Cincy? Lovie went through a few in CHI.
Fact is, you don't see coordinators change around the NFL, because most coaching staffs come and go whole cloth. There aren't many coaches that are in 1 spot for a long time.
He's just a baby with no proven track record at anything. The players would walk all over him. He doesn't have enough experience to command the level of respect and fear that a HC needs to have.
seen talk about this being worse than the 2013 OLine but i dont see it. the 2013 giants o-line is the worst i have ever seen in pro football. snap in, snap out jailbreak.
This year's line at least has some successfully blocked plays, has been OK around the goalline etc.
in 2013, beatty was one of the worst LTs in the league - his play has dramatically improved. snee got his ass handed to him every snap, as did Brewer, cordle and reynolds. every hand-off was nailed in the backfield for negative yardage.
as bad as this o-line is, it isnt touching that 2013 line
I really don't thnk the Giants see Fewell the way you all do Â
I'd be very surprised to see Fewell dumped if Coughlin stays -
What I do think will happen is the Oline coach will most likely get fired this year - and I say this because of Justin and Weston - those two did not do well this year - and I think that will cause a firing
It's also possible that the DLine coach and LBers gets fired - IMO
Those are the three places I expect to see change - because - well - those are the three places where we have been really failing
In the final analysis - I expect to see TC, Mac and Fewell stay - I expect a whole bunch of players to get the boot - and the three coaches I mentioned - are what I see as at risk coaches
I would also think the Giants would take another serious look at their nutrition, strength & conditioning program - they did last year - and I'm not sure that it improved this year
No he didn't.
What he said was ,"it would be a step backwards", in terms of the offense being in it's first year, as he's seen some progress but the line is bad.
I think that's pretty obvious.
One thing that seems clear from this year is how well this offense suits Eli and the receivers. Terrible line play is sabotaging us, but Eli and this offense is making Ruben Randle look like he should be a starting WR. That's an accomplishment all its own.
Again, he doesn't say it would be a "huge mistake", as some people would interpret it.
RTFP #152: Greg Cosell & Mike Pettine, fast-forward to 19:10 - ( New Window )
u watch the 3-game winning streak, it looks like the O has regressed (or certainly not grown)
the only "growth"/+ difference is ODB imo
We thought he was done last season, and found out that he had actually signed a small extension before the season that we either forgot about or was never reported.
So anything's possible.
I would love for TC and McAdoo to come back with some real talent beginning with the OL.
However, they replaced a good part of the offensive staff this past offseason, and given TC coming back, it's fairly certain that most of the defensive staff needs to go along with Fewell.
Can TC attract an excellent DC?
Would it be better to bring in a new HC who has been a great DC? (like Todd Bowles)
If you do that, you can leave the offensive staff alone and let the new guy build an old school Giants defense.
Which is the best route?
'Improvements' in an offense that's still won only 3 games isn't much to get locked into at this point. Hell, OBJ accounts for a fair amount of improvement all by himself. And just look at all the room for improvement that still remains.
No one is turning down one of the plum coaching jobs in sports over that. And if they do, you are probably better off without them.
Any intelligent person would understand the extraordinarily difficult process of firing a coach such as Coughlin and the additional complications that would arise in such a situation.
Plus, what's to say the new HC would not want a bright young guy like McAdoo?
No one is turning down one of the plum coaching jobs in sports over that. And if they do, you are probably better off without them.
Any intelligent person would understand the extraordinarily difficult process of firing a coach such as Coughlin and the additional complications that would arise in such a situation.
Plus, what's to say the new HC would not want a bright young guy like McAdoo?
If you decide to make a change you need to let the coach you bring in pick his own staff. Telling the new coach you have to keep certain members of the staff isn't a good way of doing business.
I would hazard to guess many possible hires would see it as interference from the owners/GM and shy away.
I would love to find a way to have Coughlin retire, step into some sort of personnel role, and hand over the reigns to McAdoo. TC's around for continuity's sake, the offense remains the same, and we see if McAdoo is up to the challenge. McAdoo hires a full staff, including positional coaches (where he wants changes), and we go from there.
I dont think he's prepared to make the jump right to HC. This was only his first year as even anything above a positional coach.
That's what mucks this all up. I do think he was hired with the possibility of him being Tom's successor when Tom hung it up but I don't think the FO ever envisioned the team being worse this year than last.
I think they assumed we'd at least improve slightly so that it we'd feel things were trending back in the "right" direction.
I think Coughlin will be back.
He says the o line sucks, which we all know.
I thought it was funny how on the second interview posted in this thread, he says the same thing and the interviewer is shocked he has a positive thing to say about Eli and the offense. What is it about Eli that is so polarizing. It really is fascinating.
All that growth would be for naught if you install a new system next year. That is his main point. The Giants really have created an odd situation. Although that is assuming they are considering getting rid of TC at all. Many, in and out of the media, assume that, but on the inside they may have a different plan. Ownership may have realized what this season was in all about from the get go. Year one of a rebuild.
Bigger problem is the defense. That is the true issue. If you replace Fewell you have basically changed over TC's whole staff except him. I have never seen that before in the NFL.
Giants really are in a odd situation.
And we're on our 3rd OC.
I agree with Eric: going to a worse state than we have in 2014 would be a "huge mistake".
Can anyone make the argument that going to a worse state than we have in 2014 is a good thing or is the argument that it would be a huge mistake?
In fact, I trump Eric: if we are worse in 2015 than we are today it would be unimaginable; the only way to imagine such a state is to bring R&R and Fewell back and let Reese go on another FA spending spree, have Ross manage the 2015 Draft and have Fewell devise a defense against the dive and QB keeper. Einstein's definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again in the hope of getting a different result.
And we're on our 3rd OC.
True
I think that would be the argument
I don't see why that would be that hard to achieve even with a new system.
It seems you're not familiar with the idea that sometimes you've got to take a step back before you can take consecutive steps forward.
I would personally like to keep McAdoo around.
But my overall point is that sometimes plugging holes with bubble gum just delays the inevitable.
Cosell is fantastic. He does a great job of being unbiased while telling what the film says. Easily one of my favs...
I completely agree with him. In fact I've told a couple of friends that I watch the Gmen games with the same thing.
I think Coughlin stays for one more year, no extension, while McAdoo continues to be our OC. I also feel that just like last year the Gmen will shit-can one of their coordinators...Fewell will be shown the door.
Not sure the Gmen will get rid of Reese, but I think it's time for him to go too. For sure Ross needs to go and he might be the fall guy in this whole mess. The lack of talent/depth on this roster is a direct reflection of those guys, especially with the OL and LB the last 3 seasons.
Also, we don't know the terms of McAdoo's contract. Chances are there isn't a clause that voids his contract if there is a change at the head coach position, but it's possible. If there isn't such a clause, the Giants could potentially fire Coughlin and bring in a head coach from the defensive side of the ball who retains McAdoo as his offensive coordinator. In which case, there would be no step backwards despite a change at the head coaching position
And we're on our 3rd OC.
Really excellent point Arc. Out of those 7 coordinators only one (Spags) left to take a promotion. All the others that have left did so because they failed to put a good product on the field consistently. What does that say about Tom Coughlin? Pretty damning evidence. They all had to be fired rather than fixed or taught by our head coach. It mirrors the point that many of us make regarding the lack of improvement in the play of much of our roster.
I like the Offensive momentum we have now in that Eli's INTs are way down vs. prior years even though he has a worse OL than last year, no Cruz, an inconsistent WR in Randle and a fumbler and bumbler TE in Donnell
You got a magic ball over there showing you where we will be a year from now? Because if not stop speaking as if it's a fact we will be a worse team.
I like the Offensive momentum we have now in that Eli's INTs are way down vs. prior years even though he has a worse OL than last year, no Cruz, an inconsistent WR in Randle and a fumbler and bumbler TE in Donnell
It has nothing to do with physics.
Think of it this way:
I don't know if you're a basketball fan but in the NBA if you're a middling team, you can get stuck in NBA purgatory where you never get a good enough draft pick to grab a franchise player and you're never good enough to win a championship. You just kind of hang in no mans land.
One way out is to be the worst team in the league or one of the worst teams, get a top pick, draft a franchise changer and build a team around him.
Thus, you take a step back to burn it all down and rebuild a much better product than the one stuck in limbo with its wheels stuck in the mud.
Again, I like McAdoo and would prefer we kept going down this road with this offense. But taking a step back doesn't have to be permanent and it could potentially result in a better future.
I can't predict what will happen either way so I don't know which decision will leave us in a better place long-term.
I can't imagine the Giants giving McAdoo one year and then letting him go.
Fewell ... he has had his struggles throughout his tenure here. I don't blame him completely, I don't think the front office has done a very good job providing him with quality players. It sounds like D-Moore is not a good fit in this defense (3-4 olb maybe?).
For me, it comes back to the front office every time.
Over the past three years, we have been going backwards ALREADY with the current group of couches and office personnel. What exactly will make next year different (BETTER) than this year if they stay? Coughlin is not changing his stripes. We already do not trust Reese and his ability to fix the O-line. So... where do we get any confidence from?
Quote:
But the DC has already changed three times.. Coughlin started with Lewis, went to Spagnuolo to Sheridan to Fewell. 4 different DC's in Coughlin's 11 year tenure here.
And we're on our 3rd OC.
True
Cowher had musical coordinators as well until he finally got Dick L. Back and Whisenhunt as an OC. Things worked well then. Irony is that Gilbride and Tim Lewis were his coordinators at don't point too.
check this out as well...How many Coordinators has belichik gone through in NE. how about Marvin in Cincy? Lovie went through a few in CHI.
Fact is, you don't see coordinators change around the NFL, because most coaching staffs come and go whole cloth. There aren't many coaches that are in 1 spot for a long time.
This year's line at least has some successfully blocked plays, has been OK around the goalline etc.
in 2013, beatty was one of the worst LTs in the league - his play has dramatically improved. snee got his ass handed to him every snap, as did Brewer, cordle and reynolds. every hand-off was nailed in the backfield for negative yardage.
as bad as this o-line is, it isnt touching that 2013 line
What I do think will happen is the Oline coach will most likely get fired this year - and I say this because of Justin and Weston - those two did not do well this year - and I think that will cause a firing
It's also possible that the DLine coach and LBers gets fired - IMO
Those are the three places I expect to see change - because - well - those are the three places where we have been really failing
In the final analysis - I expect to see TC, Mac and Fewell stay - I expect a whole bunch of players to get the boot - and the three coaches I mentioned - are what I see as at risk coaches
I would also think the Giants would take another serious look at their nutrition, strength & conditioning program - they did last year - and I'm not sure that it improved this year