As a few of you know i have a bit of knowledge and experience with line play - both as a player and coach. I hesitated making this post but wanted to relay a couple of things regarding the Giants struggles this year.
Without a doubt the talent on the offensive line is sub par and not what you would expect from a NYG football team. This organization and it's success has always been predicated on solid and sometimes exceptional line play on both sides of the ball. I won't get into the faults on the defensive side now but i'd like to make a few comments on the O Line.
Offensive line success is determined as much by talent as it is by communication, understanding, decision making ability and trust - the four latter factors being the most important imo. Look at your typical TE twist or stunt by the DE and T on a passing down or 3rd down play. Depending on down and distance you're most likely looking for your T to shoot first with the DE scooping the T and filling a gap determined by your defensive call.
I'll focus on the OG for this one because he's responsible for two gaps and immediate pressure - the G must maintain gap responsibility and take his kick or bucket step quickly while engaging the oncoming DE. Too often we've seen either the 1-technique or the DE on a twist take advantage of both the G and the OC's inabilities to (1) know their assignments and (2) maintain gap responsibility. You've seen our Guards either fan out or block down while completely ignoring their gap responsibility. This happens multiple times per quarter. Not per game. Per quarter.
This comes with trust. You've got to be able to trust the guy next to you or the guys either side of you. This Giants unit has absolutely no trust in each other. They know nothing about each other. They cannot depend on the guy next to them to know and perform their assignment - that's why you see John Jerry blocking his own man and letting a blitzing LB thru - or Walton completely whiffing on a 1-T NT slanted to take two blockers only to have the G completely blow it.
These guys remind me of kids who only know one way to block - straight drive blocking - no reach block - no hip turn - no combo - and definitely no traps - and rarely do we see one of the Giants lineman attempt to get out into space because god forbid they vacate and leave it up to a back or linemate to fill.
This is an epidemic with this team. It's injuries. It's talent. It's positional. It's the constant positional shuffling due to the aforementioned. And it's not fixable this year. It's every man for himself out there and that cannot be the way in professional football.
Ironically, the guy we were all worried about in the off season following his sub par performance in 2013 and subsequent injury - Beatty - has been the best lineman - by far - on the offensive side of the ball.
It kills me to see this happening to the Giants. But i take solace in the fact that we cannot realistically blame this on the QB or the Offensive Coordinator - both engaged in learning learning a new system and coaching new personnel. It's every offensive lineman for himself out there and they cannot find a way to work as a unit. It's a recipe for disaster.
So here's the deal imo - moving left to right - Beatty stays, he's doing well and he's not a liability right now. You've got to either keep Schwartz after he rehabs or draft a LG or pick someone up of substance in FA. Richburg to C - supplement thru the draft and FA. Keep Walton as a backup. Schwartz has got to be counted on for the RG if not the LG spot next year or you draft a RG. I look at the Guards as the most important parts of this offensive line right now - based on the fact that this offense is predicated on getting the ball out quickly and inside pressure is anathema to accomplishing that. Pugh is the RT. Give him a mulligan on this season. He's been injured and has had no help from either the TE spot or at G. Either draft another OL or develop in house.
It's not a fix-all. It's going to take another year after next before we all start to feel it. And that's dependent on injury luck and other factors. All that said, i truly believe the OL is the problem with this team and should be the #1 priority from today until preseason camp.
Sorry this was so long.
Look, with some luck and a return to health of the fallen this offense could be special in 2015. Beckham demands double teams. Randle is a possession guy and Cruz can get those slot conversion 3rd downs. Donnell should get better and TE Robinson might just develop too.
The OL is the key for Eli. Go out and just draft well, I mean, we are bound to finally get lucky right?
Beatty-?-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh
It's a LG/RT issue for me...We better hope Pugh is a good LG, because we will have opportunity at a top OT in this draft. This line needs size and attitude...Does Pugh bring either?
And Wisconsin has four OL players in the NFL now.
I would cut Walton. I would also cut or not resign Brewer, Mosley, Reynolds, Snyder, and Jerry. Bring Herman and Gaines to camp. Gaines is the guy who really intrigues me. He looked excellent in preseason.
The guard you want is A.J. Cann of South Carolina. You trade down in the first and get him and Carl Davis, the DT from Iowa. Your OL in 2015:
Beatty.
Cann.
Richburg,
Schwartz.
Pugh.
Herman, Gaines, low round draft pick, and vet FA as backups. Maybe keep Barimo on the PS another year to see if he can develop.
Schwartz to RG. Let's get a good LG and we're set for awhile, if they can stay healthy.
Not Sure who else is potentially available in FA but if Mike Iupati is not Jerry Reese's main target in 2015 he is both blind and dumb. If he can land Iupati and spend a high draft, while getting value, on an O linemen this team can turn things around fairly quickly.
A starting spot for next year, here are two options that I think would potentially work:
Beatty, Iupati, Richburg, Schwartz, Pugh or Beatty, Pugh, Richburg, Schwartz, Parnell. Depth will still need to be collected but these would be solid starting lines.
Reese on the other hand was given a very good OL in 2007 and he let it turn to crap. Reese just doesn't seem to think the OL is that important. Certainly not as important as WRs. I don't think Reese is up to the task of fixing our OL
Eli plays a major factor in the OL play past, present and going forward, he is a statue back there. The Giants will always have a problem due to his terrible lack of mobility in the running or passing game. He has to have everything go right on every snap from hand offs to passes or it's like Russian roulette in the backfield. He has been in the league for 11 years however none of his teams can run a simple screen play. If you are asking Eli to move around in the pocket your odds of success has gone down to less than 30% if not even more.
Pugh looks like he went to the play real bad RT school for young players. Many felt he had future All Pro written for him at RT but he could have been the worst OL on the team this year. He is not a RT just not big enough or strong enough now the real question is can he play LG because he is not a RG either. Now if he can move to LG along side Beatty the left side should be somewhere from solid to good. Some claim he can play center I don't see that type of player his future is at LG or another busted high pick. Why he is still playing I don't know he sucks at RT and is hurt time to shut him down.
Beatty has been our best lineman and it's not even close, coming of the injury many of us did not know what to expect. For the most part he has done well but needs to clean up the two to four plays each game we hear his name. LT is really not a problem if he can remain healthy.
Schwartz was a thief who came and stayed in your house all year but put nothing on the table not even scraps. He got hurt and it seems like he should have just went to IR for the year because he is not a RT not now or tomorrow. He needs to come back next year and prove to himself and many others that he can play RG or he could get walking papers real fast. The time he spent at RT showed he has the size but nothing else to stay at RT unless it's an emergency god forbid.
Walton looks overmatched at center but we have not heard much from the coaching staff about him god or bad strange who knows. Normally if a guy is not producing you hear about it but his name has not been spoken very often. He represents very good depth at center on the OL once Richburg moves into the starting position.
Our center of the future Richburg spent his rookie year at LG in many ways he took one for the team. He seems tired or just physically overmatched at this point but his position is OC not OG it's a move that will greatly help the entire OL. He came into the league with good strength so now the question becomes how much bigger can he get without loosing his quickness. Now would be a great time to move him into the center position but they seem to still believe they can win out LOL. We also have to make sure he does not attend the school Pugh went to during his rookie offseason.
So that still leaves RT a position no one presently on this team IMO can play. You can look down the entire roster and PS and no one seems to have done anything to give us a speck of hope. This is a position we will need to address both in FA's and the draft for a starter and development player. This draft class is strong in OT's many more RT's than LT's so it's not a position you have to draft in the first round. The offense of the future will also play a role are we a passing or running team in the players we draft.
Iupati does not play OT so why sign a big contract for a position that for this team could be solid with some realignment unless you are going to give the Schwartz walking papers. We have no depth except Walton there is nothing left Mosley, Brewer, Herman, Reynolds, Snyder, Gaines, Kropog, Johnson and Bamiro are all not even training camp worthy. If you see some of these names next season then god help us. These are all mostly 25 years and older players who have not been on the field it's time to start fresh I just don't think any of them belong hoped but it's a false hope now.
No matter what we do going forward the process of developing our young OL's needs to be evaluated very closely. How can we not find one nail in a haystack year after year.
"Cut his ass"
One was Reb's - how much of this do you think is attributable to the OL coach? I don't doubt your theory that it's a trust issue between these guys, but that's not a physical or a scheme problem, you'd think they'd have worked out the trust issues by this point in the season (before the recent reshuffling of the OL due to injury).
The other - what do you make of the pattern of OL play dropoff after the half the past few games? Going back to the first Dallas game, these guys have been playing a good first half and then going to shit in the second. Is it just that they're unraveling as they're under more pressure late in the game, or do these trust issues get exacerbated somehow?
One was Reb's - how much of this do you think is attributable to the OL coach? I don't doubt your theory that it's a trust issue between these guys, but that's not a physical or a scheme problem, you'd think they'd have worked out the trust issues by this point in the season (before the recent reshuffling of the OL due to injury).
The other - what do you make of the pattern of OL play dropoff after the half the past few games? Going back to the first Dallas game, these guys have been playing a good first half and then going to shit in the second. Is it just that they're unraveling as they're under more pressure late in the game, or do these trust issues get exacerbated somehow?
I'll try to answer and not be as long winded:
Coaching: I think there's only so much a coaching staff can do when you are constantly having to resort to a plug and play situation. A lot of their trouble seems to be simple gap responsibility, staying home and just doing your job. They don't work together and that can be attributed to the consistent shifts in personnel. That said, when we constantly see our RT's kick step slower than the opposing DE's first step we can talk about talent at that point - it's a race on the edge - and a race that the right side is losing almost every snap.
2nd half dropoffs: Again, a result of the plug and play situation and the defense making adjustments based on protection schemes and personnel on the other side of the ball. You know as a defensive lineman who to attack and the defensive coaching staff salivates at the chance to exploit weakness. Once you're on your third or fourth G or T it's candy-from-a-baby at that point. Plus the Giants' play at the Center position is just abyssmal - we've seen it over and over again - a big, physical NT playing tight to the line and either manipulating Walton and the G to either side or simply shooting that gap (while the end sets the edge or the opposite T slants) and getting instant pressure. It's not rocket science - but you do it until they stop it. And the Giants can't stop shit right now.
If knowing each other and communications is so important as you suggest, and as I'm sure we all agree, they need to get all the guys on the o-line next year. Let them start to learn each other in 2015 and then in the 2016 draft work on defense and the other stuff. 2015 must concentrate on fixing the line completely. Make a move to get two first round picks and fix the thing as Reece should have done in 2014.
The problem is the o-line but we ALL knew that last year and this year it is much worse!
If knowing each other and communications is so important as you suggest, and as I'm sure we all agree, they need to get all the guys on the o-line next year. Let them start to learn each other in 2015 and then in the 2016 draft work on defense and the other stuff. 2015 must concentrate on fixing the line completely. Make a move to get two first round picks and fix the thing as Reece should have done in 2014.
The problem is the o-line but we ALL knew that last year and this year it is much worse!
The Giants don't know that about Schwartz yet. Give him an offseason to heal up - another mulligan season with Pugh. And i can't see a scenario where they replace 4/5 of their line.
Cannon - ( New Window )
Just call the bullpen and bring 'em in.
pertaining to the future. Are they worthy backups?
pertaining to the future. Are they worthy backups?
I honestly don't know chops. I have't seen them play enough to have an opinion either way. All I can say is that they are strictly backups at this point. None of them stand out. Sorry.
B, since it's so important for guys to have experience and trust in each other, I wonder what you think about our OL injuries being caused at, least in part, by guys not playing their natural positions. I think it is a cause. Poor footwork can lead to sprained ankles and knees, collisions with line-mates can also cause injuries. I have no doubt that both of Schwart's injuries were because the staff played him out of position.
B, since it's so important for guys to have experience and trust in each other, I wonder what you think about our OL injuries being caused at, least in part, by guys not playing their natural positions. I think it is a cause. Poor footwork can lead to sprained ankles and knees, collisions with line-mates can also cause injuries. I have no doubt that both of Schwart's injuries were because the staff played him out of position.
Schwartz has played plenty of G so i don't know that he was necessarily out of position. His first injury was playing LG after playing on the right side last year. His latest injury was a bit of a fluke that can happen anywhere.
Pugh was a LT in college and has a year under his belt in the NFL at RT. Those are the two biggest injuries to me and i don't think their positions had much to do with their health.
I hear what you're saying and it's possible but these guys can't be china dolls either.
I'm not sure why we get hung up on other things. Football is real simple...if your offensive and defensive lines are not good you will go nowhere.
The sad thing is the wasting of Eli's best years because of this and what a bad line is doing to him in terms of happy feet etc. I mean, this is football 101.
IMO this year the Giants should stretch the BPA philosophy (assuming they're moving forward with Eli Manning, which they are). He's an immobile, pocket passer. The guy needs real guard play.
So if I'm the Giants and a top OL and top WR are available...even if I think the WR is slightly better, I go OL (slightly the operative word, if the difference is marked you no brainer take the WR).
Eli is going to get injured with another year of this. The Giants will be swept once again by Trent Cole and the Eagles. They need to be aggressive and focused about addressing the O-line. Eli is good enough where things could rapidly turn around with time to throw, the PA set up by Jennings actually being able to run, and OBJ/Cruz/Donnell (but ideally a drafted TE)
Once again, this would be an ephemeral reprieve from pure BPA (and I emphasize again the "slightly" point). Eli is going to get hurt behind the John Jerrys and the Giants will keep losing.
Peat + Matias/the Bama guard. TE that can block in the 3rd. That's my hope.
What else is new, Walton gets hammered every game!
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I have two questions after reading it...
One was Reb's - how much of this do you think is attributable to the OL coach? I don't doubt your theory that it's a trust issue between these guys, but that's not a physical or a scheme problem, you'd think they'd have worked out the trust issues by this point in the season (before the recent reshuffling of the OL due to injury).
The other - what do you make of the pattern of OL play dropoff after the half the past few games? Going back to the first Dallas game, these guys have been playing a good first half and then going to shit in the second. Is it just that they're unraveling as they're under more pressure late in the game, or do these trust issues get exacerbated somehow?
I'll try to answer and not be as long winded:
Coaching: I think there's only so much a coaching staff can do when you are constantly having to resort to a plug and play situation. A lot of their trouble seems to be simple gap responsibility, staying home and just doing your job. They don't work together and that can be attributed to the consistent shifts in personnel. That said, when we constantly see our RT's kick step slower than the opposing DE's first step we can talk about talent at that point - it's a race on the edge - and a race that the right side is losing almost every snap.
2nd half dropoffs: Again, a result of the plug and play situation and the defense making adjustments based on protection schemes and personnel on the other side of the ball. You know as a defensive lineman who to attack and the defensive coaching staff salivates at the chance to exploit weakness. Once you're on your third or fourth G or T it's candy-from-a-baby at that point. Plus the Giants' play at the Center position is just abyssmal - we've seen it over and over again - a big, physical NT playing tight to the line and either manipulating Walton and the G to either side or simply shooting that gap (while the end sets the edge or the opposite T slants) and getting instant pressure. It's not rocket science - but you do it until they stop it. And the Giants can't stop shit right now.
It's nice to see a fellow offensive line enthusiast. I too played at a pretty high level and have had the luxury of learning from some very successful coaches along the way.
I truly believe if Schwartz and subsequently Pugh don't go down, we don't have a problem this season. The weak link on this offensive line to me is JD Walton. He lacks strength and simply doesn't hold up well against 1 techs the way you need your center too. I believe he is a liability when faced with 1 on 1 blocks.
Richburg, Pugh, and Schwartz are all the real deal to me. Richburg will be best suited to play center next year. He's very good in close quarters with his hands and hips, and that being the name of the game when a defender is lined up 6" away from you. Pugh is a baller as well. I know he gets beat more than you'd like, but he brings it every game and plays with effort and an edge that you can't coach. His lack of length is a hindrance at tackle, there's no denying that, but he has very quick feet and above average lower body strength. His lack of lengths has resulted in his tendency to grab defenders, though he has come a long way since the first few games his rookie season. I think he can play guard of the team decides to go in that direction, he's very aggressive and mobile, he would certainly give our run game some punch that we've been missing. He runs his feet very well into contact.
Beatty has played good this season, there's no denying that. I still don't really care for him as a player. He has very sporadic and inconsistent technique, and doesn't have very strong hands. I wouldn't worry about him going into next year, but it's just a personal thing. He's not fluid at all in his movements, though he his pretty good at the second level and does bring a very high level of effort that I do appreciate.
Jerry? Ugh... he's an okay player. Good pass blocker, awful on combo blocks, doesn't show the lateral mobility to get to the second level even when they're shooting his gap. Actually looked okay at RT last game. He's an ideal 6th man at this point, and an above average backup.
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In comment 12018718 jcn56 said:
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I have two questions after reading it...
One was Reb's - how much of this do you think is attributable to the OL coach? I don't doubt your theory that it's a trust issue between these guys, but that's not a physical or a scheme problem, you'd think they'd have worked out the trust issues by this point in the season (before the recent reshuffling of the OL due to injury).
The other - what do you make of the pattern of OL play dropoff after the half the past few games? Going back to the first Dallas game, these guys have been playing a good first half and then going to shit in the second. Is it just that they're unraveling as they're under more pressure late in the game, or do these trust issues get exacerbated somehow?
I'll try to answer and not be as long winded:
Coaching: I think there's only so much a coaching staff can do when you are constantly having to resort to a plug and play situation. A lot of their trouble seems to be simple gap responsibility, staying home and just doing your job. They don't work together and that can be attributed to the consistent shifts in personnel. That said, when we constantly see our RT's kick step slower than the opposing DE's first step we can talk about talent at that point - it's a race on the edge - and a race that the right side is losing almost every snap.
2nd half dropoffs: Again, a result of the plug and play situation and the defense making adjustments based on protection schemes and personnel on the other side of the ball. You know as a defensive lineman who to attack and the defensive coaching staff salivates at the chance to exploit weakness. Once you're on your third or fourth G or T it's candy-from-a-baby at that point. Plus the Giants' play at the Center position is just abyssmal - we've seen it over and over again - a big, physical NT playing tight to the line and either manipulating Walton and the G to either side or simply shooting that gap (while the end sets the edge or the opposite T slants) and getting instant pressure. It's not rocket science - but you do it until they stop it. And the Giants can't stop shit right now.
It's nice to see a fellow offensive line enthusiast. I too played at a pretty high level and have had the luxury of learning from some very successful coaches along the way.
I truly believe if Schwartz and subsequently Pugh don't go down, we don't have a problem this season. The weak link on this offensive line to me is JD Walton. He lacks strength and simply doesn't hold up well against 1 techs the way you need your center too. I believe he is a liability when faced with 1 on 1 blocks.
Richburg, Pugh, and Schwartz are all the real deal to me. Richburg will be best suited to play center next year. He's very good in close quarters with his hands and hips, and that being the name of the game when a defender is lined up 6" away from you. Pugh is a baller as well. I know he gets beat more than you'd like, but he brings it every game and plays with effort and an edge that you can't coach. His lack of length is a hindrance at tackle, there's no denying that, but he has very quick feet and above average lower body strength. His lack of lengths has resulted in his tendency to grab defenders, though he has come a long way since the first few games his rookie season. I think he can play guard of the team decides to go in that direction, he's very aggressive and mobile, he would certainly give our run game some punch that we've been missing. He runs his feet very well into contact.
Beatty has played good this season, there's no denying that. I still don't really care for him as a player. He has very sporadic and inconsistent technique, and doesn't have very strong hands. I wouldn't worry about him going into next year, but it's just a personal thing. He's not fluid at all in his movements, though he his pretty good at the second level and does bring a very high level of effort that I do appreciate.
Jerry? Ugh... he's an okay player. Good pass blocker, awful on combo blocks, doesn't show the lateral mobility to get to the second level even when they're shooting his gap. Actually looked okay at RT last game. He's an ideal 6th man at this point, and an above average backup.
Definitely the Schwartz and Pugh injuries killed this offense - no question. Agree that Jerry is a backup guy but i don't want to see Pugh moved at this point. I'd rather see a guy who takes up space and can pull opposite or get out on screens. He doesn't have to be a monster but athletic enough to play in space. A Rich Seubert type.
Definitely the Schwartz and Pugh injuries killed this offense - no question. Agree that Jerry is a backup guy but i don't want to see Pugh moved at this point. I'd rather see a guy who takes up space and can pull opposite or get out on screens. He doesn't have to be a monster but athletic enough to play in space. A Rich Seubert type.
Yeah I'm okay with either at this point. Pugh can play RT there's no doubt in my mind. We just need to find someone to play guard so Richburg can play center, that's the key IMO. Walton like Jerry is a pretty good backup, can play for stretches without doing too, too bad. But he's not the answer.
Good guards can be had midway through the draft so hopefully....
And ya, with all the power we run, someone who can locate guys on the move would be nice I agree.
Eh... coaching really isn't all that different for the most part from coach to coach. Fundamentals of offensive line play really don't vary from team to team. I don't think it's fair to blame Flaherty when you look at some of the athletes he has been given. He did an excellent job with Pugh his rookie year, helped Beatty rebound from an awful season and fixed his stance. Richburg too is coming along... I wouldn't blame Flaherty personally. Get one more starter at either RT or G, and figure out the best way to shuffle Beatty, Pugh, Richburg, Schwartz and new guy. It's hard to see it if you don't understand the position, you gotta be able to see the forest from the trees. We got some trees.
When you have a revolving door of linemen game to game and at some points quarter to quarter coaching communication and technique is a non factor. It then comes down to bodies and luck. It's a complete crap shoot. Trial by extreme fire. I wouldn't put this on the coaches at all. Other than a speculative nod to keeping Richburg at G and Walton at C. That one I'm not sold on.
"one-eighteen-one-eighteen.set!"
I've noticed the DL jumping the snap more often than not.
When was the last time you saw Eli hard count the DL?
He can't.
He can't do it because of the ever-shifting personnel on the offensive line. There is no confidence there - no cohesion - and no discipline to trust the entire offensive unit to maintain.
Eli was always good for one or two encroachments every two weeks. When was the last time we saw that? I can't even come close to guessing.
The Defensive Linemen are on their toes...not their heels. They're smelling blood and taking advantage of weakness in personnel and tendencies.
Herman was praised throughout training camp and I thought he would be starting at Guard. Then the dreaded PED violation that resulted in the 4 game suspension. I was totally shocked when they put him back on PS and subsequently released him. I was even more shocked that another team didn't sign him. I believe this guy can be a dominate force and help stabilize the OL for years to come. I just hope he can get in the lineup for a couple of games this season. Regardless of Pugh's performance at OT, he is still better suited to OG. The Giants definitely need to draft a blue-chip OT this year. I sure wish we had picked Seantrell Henderson up as an UDFA.
Herman - ( New Window )
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Makes absolute sense to me. Man to have a healthy (and young) Snee or Seubert in with this group for some stability. Epecially if Schwartz comes back fully healthy. Maybe another strong free agent guard will shake free that we can add. I wonder if maybe Herman has what it take to get to pro level play? Seemed like a mauler coming into the league... that would be huge.
Herman was praised throughout training camp and I thought he would be starting at Guard. Then the dreaded PED violation that resulted in the 4 game suspension. I was totally shocked when they put him back on PS and subsequently released him. I was even more shocked that another team didn't sign him. I believe this guy can be a dominate force and help stabilize the OL for years to come. I just hope he can get in the lineup for a couple of games this season. Regardless of Pugh's performance at OT, he is still better suited to OG. The Giants definitely need to draft a blue-chip OT this year. I sure wish we had picked Seantrell Henderson up as an UDFA. Herman - ( New Window )
I don't remember a lot of praise for Pancake Herman during damp. I did, however, think he had some good moments in the preseason games. He certainly brings some toughness/meanness to the line. I'd like to see him spell Jerry at times the next 4 games.
Now, I know a lot of coaches think they can turn anyone around, but part of being a coach is to make brutal evaluations of what personnel you have. If Flaherty didn't raise a stink about the talent level he had to Gilbride (and this would have been years ago, since we've seen decline in the line since 2008), then he's to blame for this mess.
I suspect he did, however, and Gilbride complained to TC (something I think did happen based on comments he made after retirement). If I were TC, I'd have made a big stink about this, and told the FO they needed to have a plan in place to fix this. Personally, I would have gone public about the talent level (hey, Reese complained to the press about Eli not "going deep"!), and forced the FO's hand.
You can't tell me that the coaches didn't realise after one season that Mosely, Brewer, Reynolds, etc (including some of the D Linemen). didn't belong on an active NFL roster. And the FO should have been evaluating their own talent based on gameday film, not just the coaches evaluations.
I would hope Tom would not let loyalty to the older Linemen blind his evaluations of them, but that's a possibility.
What we don't know is what happened between TC, Reese and Mara if and when this was brought up. Someone...or more than one.. decided not to pull the trigger. Those are the guys that are to blame, and these questions need to be asked to Tom, Jerry and John M.
It's going to take time to fix this, and that sucks, because we aren't going to have Eli forever. We need quality depth, and it's a shame we didn't keep Kevin Boothe, who was our depth for the last few years.
Now, I know a lot of coaches think they can turn anyone around, but part of being a coach is to make brutal evaluations of what personnel you have. If Flaherty didn't raise a stink about the talent level he had to Gilbride (and this would have been years ago, since we've seen decline in the line since 2008), then he's to blame for this mess.
I suspect he did, however, and Gilbride complained to TC (something I think did happen based on comments he made after retirement). If I were TC, I'd have made a big stink about this, and told the FO they needed to have a plan in place to fix this. Personally, I would have gone public about the talent level (hey, Reese complained to the press about Eli not "going deep"!), and forced the FO's hand.
You can't tell me that the coaches didn't realise after one season that Mosely, Brewer, Reynolds, etc (including some of the D Linemen). didn't belong on an active NFL roster. And the FO should have been evaluating their own talent based on gameday film, not just the coaches evaluations.
I would hope Tom would not let loyalty to the older Linemen blind his evaluations of them, but that's a possibility.
What we don't know is what happened between TC, Reese and Mara if and when this was brought up. Someone...or more than one.. decided not to pull the trigger. Those are the guys that are to blame, and these questions need to be asked to Tom, Jerry and John M.
It's going to take time to fix this, and that sucks, because we aren't going to have Eli forever. We need quality depth, and it's a shame we didn't keep Kevin Boothe, who was our depth for the last few years.
John - I think the fact that it's a revolving door with the injuries at this point eliminates any possible tangible effect coaching can have on line play. Honestly, I've never seen anything like it.
Now tomorrow they'll probably have their full opening day unit right? Beatty, Richburg, Walton, Jerry and Pugh. I'm interested to see - despite the Pugh absence - to see if there is any better cohesion on the oline. Not the best opponent to gauge it but I have a feeling the Giants win by double digits tomorrow
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I do think there's some blame here, though. The Coaches (in particular, the O-Line coaches) see these guys every day, and they have been in the league long enough to make evaluations.
Now, I know a lot of coaches think they can turn anyone around, but part of being a coach is to make brutal evaluations of what personnel you have. If Flaherty didn't raise a stink about the talent level he had to Gilbride (and this would have been years ago, since we've seen decline in the line since 2008), then he's to blame for this mess.
I suspect he did, however, and Gilbride complained to TC (something I think did happen based on comments he made after retirement). If I were TC, I'd have made a big stink about this, and told the FO they needed to have a plan in place to fix this. Personally, I would have gone public about the talent level (hey, Reese complained to the press about Eli not "going deep"!), and forced the FO's hand.
You can't tell me that the coaches didn't realise after one season that Mosely, Brewer, Reynolds, etc (including some of the D Linemen). didn't belong on an active NFL roster. And the FO should have been evaluating their own talent based on gameday film, not just the coaches evaluations.
I would hope Tom would not let loyalty to the older Linemen blind his evaluations of them, but that's a possibility.
What we don't know is what happened between TC, Reese and Mara if and when this was brought up. Someone...or more than one.. decided not to pull the trigger. Those are the guys that are to blame, and these questions need to be asked to Tom, Jerry and John M.
It's going to take time to fix this, and that sucks, because we aren't going to have Eli forever. We need quality depth, and it's a shame we didn't keep Kevin Boothe, who was our depth for the last few years.
John - I think the fact that it's a revolving door with the injuries at this point eliminates any possible tangible effect coaching can have on line play. Honestly, I've never seen anything like it.
Now tomorrow they'll probably have their full opening day unit right? Beatty, Richburg, Walton, Jerry and Pugh. I'm interested to see - despite the Pugh absence - to see if there is any better cohesion on the oline. Not the best opponent to gauge it but I have a feeling the Giants win by double digits tomorrow
O line looked much much better today just in terms of communication and working together. My prediction of a double digit win was on point - not a real shocking result I realize - but when this o line plays well we see big offensive numbers. It is possible folks. Now do it against a team like Philly.
I think I saw Eli get hit once.