Not sure what that's worth but francesa just said that someone close to the Giants said TC is staying. Im not even sure if that means that TC is staying on as coach. Who knows
when it comes to shit like this. He's been wrong before obviously, but I kind of trust him when it comes to shit like this, especially pertaining to NYG.
We don't hear players saying the locker room is lost. They play hard for him. Also, i think we all know he can coach. Mara would like to wait to see what mcadoo can doo with an offense that have a healthy cruz, Jennings, OBJ on offense. Probably don't want to hand the team to mcadoo after this year. maybe after next assuming they turn it around. Injuries really killed this team. Build an OL and DL. we have a lot of skilled players.
I think this quick passing system helped Eli BUT if Coughlin comes back he needs to jus tlet Mcadoo run the offense...no more adding what he wants to add...Let Mcadoo install wht he wants to install...whether it is more shotgun, more uptempo and less forcing the run...
and change the offense again. I can see the logic behind this. I dont want him fired anyways, i think he's a terrific coach trying to make the most of lesser talent and injuries.
would make sense if they announce before the season that next year will be his last year. The endless speculation over his status/future each time we lose a few in a row next year will be maddening.
I don't think he's done a great job this year, but he's not the problem either and we've had enough success under him I don't mind giving him another shot to go out on a high note. I'm just sick of the endless year-to-year evaluation.
I can't see our organization really keen on having Eli learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. Fewell needs to be shown the door. Quinn needed to be gone yesterday. Major changes I'd like to see after this, is a hard look at our strength and conditioning program. Also, I'd like to see Reese being more involved with the draft, and Ross much less involved.
It may be okay - they were competitive in most of their games this year. Two games they never in - Detroit and Philly. Even games like Seattle - they played well for a while and then just could not be competitive for the entire game. They almost beat Dallas and the 49ers. And, should have beaten the Cards.
There are signs McAdoo's offense can be effective.
I would not think it a crazy idea if they went in another direction. In fact, if I had to be my life - I'd bet TC was gone. But, don't think it is the end of the world if he stays.
TC and McAdoo stay and they bring in a solid DC resurrecting the defense. Id be completely fine with that scenario.
And the fact that the usual mouthbreathers want TC gone without having the first clue who could possibly replace him - and the brand new OC who has pretty much been a success despite injury and an horrific offensive line at times - only serves to solidify his return.
I can't see our organization really keen on having Eli learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. Fewell needs to be shown the door. Quinn needed to be gone yesterday. Major changes I'd like to see after this, is a hard look at our strength and conditioning program. Also, I'd like to see Reese being more involved with the draft, and Ross much less involved.
No, it doesn't. McAdoo is doing on-the-job training with the master. The McAdoo's of the NFL are a dime a dozen. Coaches with two Lombardi's on the shelf are very rare.
I agree that giving McAdoo another year to let this O develop Â
unless the Giant lose the remaining games in an competitive manner. They will make changes and I suspect Fewell is in trouble, but you never know. This year is not on TC. Free agency misses and injuries sealed the Giants fate this year.
I suspect the Giants will crush Washington this weekend. That franchise is doing it's yearly collapse.
Who would replace TC? Several possibilities have been discussed on BBI but nobody jumps out. Doesn't make sense to start ground up rebuild with Eli at QB.
What changes are needed and can TC make them? Need to stay healthy (he has shown willingness to modify practice habits), need to change defensive coordinator and scheme (he has shown willingness to do it with offense), need to play rookies quicker (mixed results here, but has changed a little), need to improve special teams (see defensive coordinator comments).
Does he have respect of players? Yes.
Has the team stuck together? (Yes).
Keeping him makes sense if he will continue to adapt. Hiring a DC with Head Coach potential, and an ST with head coach potential would give the Giants three possible choices to succeed TC in the next three years.
Personally, I would LOVE to see Rex at DC. He could learn some things from TC regarding how to run the whole team and would be a great HC with the proper seasoning.
My biggest concern is that TC has not been successful since the new collective bargaining agreement changed the way that you have to practice. I think he needs to improve on that as he has not been able to develop the necessary physicality without the two a days and the hitting.
I can't see our organization really keen on having Eli learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. Fewell needs to be shown the door. Quinn needed to be gone yesterday. Major changes I'd like to see after this, is a hard look at our strength and conditioning program. Also, I'd like to see Reese being more involved with the draft, and Ross much less involved.
No, it doesn't. McAdoo is doing on-the-job training with the master. The McAdoo's of the NFL are a dime a dozen. Coaches with two Lombardi's on the shelf are very rare.
If McAdoo's are a dime a dozen, then where are they, and why does Coughlin have a poor track record of hiring coordinators? On-the-job training with the master? Take a look at the Coughlin coaching tree and compare it to all the coaches Parcells and Walsh actually did groom.
2013 season band-aid fix was a new offensive coordinator.
2014 season band-aid fix will be a new defensive coordinator.
It might help, could help. But band-aid fixes rarely do.
You mean like 2007 new defensive coordinator + new offensive coordinator. Or 2011 new defensive coordinator?
Gilbride took over as offensive coordinator midway in 2006 and Fewell was hired in 2010. And Gilbride was a different voice, and a different caller but not a different offense.
TC and McAdoo stay and they bring in a solid DC resurrecting the defense. Id be completely fine with that scenario.
And the fact that the usual mouthbreathers want TC gone without having the first clue who could possibly replace him - and the brand new OC who has pretty much been a success despite injury and an horrific offensive line at times - only serves to solidify his return.
Wouldn't be so sure. Fewells tc guy..plus continuity is what they aim for
Good if they are going to 1) extend him 3 years, no more year to year Â
what a shitty post. I lean toward giving him another year (hopefully with a new DC and actual Oline), but there is a perfectly reasonable argument for bringing in some new blood after the past 2 trainwreck seasons. Yes, the Giants are again decimated by injuries and with JAGS all over the field, but TC has been downright bad in games this and last year (re-watch the Colts games specifically...he looked lost).
The Giants keep missing the playoffs in what isn't some world-beater division. Even in 2011, they squeaked in due to the length of JPP's arms. TC should stay IMO, but it's not crazy to maintain otherwise.
if they still had Gilbride here as OC I think there's a better chance that mgmt cleans house and completely starts over. With McAdoo here showing promise, even if limited, it's not a slam dunk easy call even if you hate Coughlin. What if they love McAdoo as OC but believe he may not be ready now or may not ever be head coach material? Even if they are just a little uncertain, they wouldn't feel comfortable turning the keys over to this guy so soon. And they also don't want to fire Coughlin knowing that it's a virtual lock that the new coach, not McAdoo, would come in with his own OC and staff.
Kind of like not dumping the baby out with the bath water I guess...
It's a philosophy and decision that I can respect....I just pray it's the right one.
With keeping Coughlin, as long as we fire Fewell, and I also would fire Quinn. if they do stay, then I think they are making a huge mistake. Keeping the continuity with the offense is a very good idea, I can not say a word about that, but this defense stinks, and has never been very good under Fewell. The same can be said about Quinn also, so if they keep those two guys who have not done well, then it does make you worry, if they get them out, then I have high hopes. It is not a good idea to change too much at once, they changed enough last off season, but now they need to continue with changes that are needed this off season also.
Fire Fewell and Quinn, but have TC pick their replacements? Â
At some point, that eventually gets played out, doesn't it?
Is that point next year, when they'll have likely missed the playoffs six out of seven years and won't be any closer to real rebuild than they were a couple years ago?
TC and McAdoo stay and they bring in a solid DC resurrecting the defense. Id be completely fine with that scenario.
And the fact that the usual mouthbreathers want TC gone without having the first clue who could possibly replace him - and the brand new OC who has pretty much been a success despite injury and an horrific offensive line at times - only serves to solidify his return.
Wouldn't be so sure. Fewells tc guy..plus continuity is what they aim for
Someone has to be sacrificed for two debacles in a row. Fewell is the lamb.
we've seen Coughlin win super bowls with so many different coordinators that this would be just another blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things. We only seem to win when half the coaching staff gets wacked in the off season and Coughlin is put on a death march.
You could call it a band aid, but the band aid worked before. Fewell in for Sheridan. Even Gilbride in for Huff...
Coughlin just needs to wack his staff every few years and away we go!
a knowledgeable coach. It wont change my life if he stays and if the players want that its a good sign. Feels to me that a new voice would give us a better chance of making the playoffs for a change. Two weeks ago many here wanted TC out. Now we beat the Titans and he should stay. Whatever.
we probably will see more maddening, weird undisciplined football in 2015 but we also might win again. They've won in spite of themselves before. Could happen again...need players.
he's 9-14 against the Eagles (if I'm counting right) with more than a few horrific losses in big games.
And aside from that meaningless game in week 17 a couple years ago, he never crushes them like they so often do the Giants. I half want to hire Andy Reid to fix that alone (joking...). They've really had his number and I never feel good about playing them.
we've seen Coughlin win super bowls with so many different coordinators...
This is false. We had the same OC for both Super Bowls. Only the DC's were different. TC has a poor track record at picking coordinators, and he sticks with them longer than he should.
The Giants were a bad team last year, and they will probably finish even worse this season. The Giants can't afford to waste the few years Eli has left on a guy who isn't producing results anymore.
So hiring McAdoo last year saved Coughlin's job for at least two years Â
I can't see our organization really keen on having Eli learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. Fewell needs to be shown the door. Quinn needed to be gone yesterday. Major changes I'd like to see after this, is a hard look at our strength and conditioning program. Also, I'd like to see Reese being more involved with the draft, and Ross much less involved.
No, it doesn't. McAdoo is doing on-the-job training with the master. The McAdoo's of the NFL are a dime a dozen. Coaches with two Lombardi's on the shelf are very rare.
If McAdoo's are a dime a dozen, then where are they, and why does Coughlin have a poor track record of hiring coordinators? On-the-job training with the master? Take a look at the Coughlin coaching tree and compare it to all the coaches Parcells and Walsh actually did groom.
Bright-eyed position coaches are all over the place. McAdoo is nothing special and his resume is nothing special. Do you really think that after 50 years in the game and having built winning teams at all levels, that TC has nothing to teach this kid? Please.
the organization is not going to want Eli to learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. There needs to be a bit of continuity.
Yep. Instead of letting Coughlin go last year, which many said he should've been, the Giants hired an OC, which bought Coughlin this year and apparently next year...
we've seen Coughlin win super bowls with so many different coordinators...
This is false. We had the same OC for both Super Bowls. Only the DC's were different. TC has a poor track record at picking coordinators, and he sticks with them longer than he should.
No, he doesn't walk around like Captain fucking Bligh swinging the ax left and right like some of the more ignorant of the fan base want. I'd like to see how some of you supervise people.
RE: hopefully the extension is the neighborhood of Â
4-5 years for tom and then tom can decide if or when wants to leave coaching. He deserves that.
Awful. And no he doesn't. Missing the playoffs 5 out of 6 years doesn't deserve a 4-5 year extension. It's a "What have you done for me lately?" league.
The Giants were a bad team last year, and they will probably finish even worse this season. The Giants can't afford to waste the few years Eli has left on a guy who isn't producing results anymore.
The Giants are better this year than they were in 2013. This is indisputable. In 2013 they finished where they did because they played a slew of backup quarterbacks...a couple of whom were completely incompetent. The record won't show it but they played significantly better football this year.
choice given the new offense. It's not that McAdoo is some irreplaceable star, it's that their still adjusting to the new offense and it would pretty ridiculous to install another one after the season and start all over again. Could they find a HC that accepts McAdoo and his offense? Probably, it's not impossible...but, they would be severely limiting the search and it's just not a good idea.
3 or 4 years? Hell, just give him a lifetime contract like Gene wants Â
- The organization recognizes that despite the turnover to a new system with McAdoo and 20 guys on IR, Coughlin has kept the team competitive. In pretty much every game, they were holding their own against teams with better personnel until they simply ran out of bullets and would lose late.
- The fact that the past 2 draft classes have shown growth and are responding to the coaching staff rather than going the other way has also helped him.
- I think the organization also recognizes that this team was essentially in a rebuild this year, and as myself and others on BBI mentioned, they waited a year too late to officially try to build the team back up, with the ill fated goal to host the Super Bowl last year. Provided that TC had the team competitive, in the face of all the injuries, showed that he can still coach.
- As said above, I think the Giants are big on McAdoo. It is quite possible that as he learns on the job, the Giants might well be looking to groom him as the eventual replacement. By keeping TC around, the Giants will have another year to validate what they think about McAdoo and set up for a succession to a young coach (something the Giants need) is better for long term.
I had noted in my post yesterday, though this was a losing season, this wasn't a lost season. If the Giants were getting blown out left and right with this younger roster, I think that would have been the death knell for TC. But that they were competitive against better rosters, was enough to show that TC still has control of the team. Ultimately, he will likely need to replace Fewell.
The Giants were a bad team last year, and they will probably finish even worse this season. The Giants can't afford to waste the few years Eli has left on a guy who isn't producing results anymore.
The Giants are better this year than they were in 2013. This is indisputable. In 2013 they finished where they did because they played a slew of backup quarterbacks...a couple of whom were completely incompetent. The record won't show it but they played significantly better football this year.
Well, if this is significantly better football, we really have to be the worst franchise in the NFL...
They have some good cap money available, a one year OC Â
and as each game went on and we lost another player to IR and then another and then another it only reinforced my belief that the Giants know they'd be nuts to let TC go.
And I don't think it has anything to with us beating this terrible Titans team.
Bet, that all these coaches will be back next year. If they're keeping TC, there's no way, they're going to fire Fewell. Which means, the NY Giants will be less than average again next year. If TC isn't fired at the end of this year, he'll never be fired.
the organization is not going to want Eli to learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. There needs to be a bit of continuity.
Eli was in Gillbride's offense for about a decade. I doubt he had much trouble picking up the offense in 2013.
You don't think there's a bit of an adjustment period learning an entirely new scheme? Our offense didn't exactly come out of the gates firing this year. I'm assuming you mean 2014, not 2013.
I guess you can count a collapse against a 1-10 team as "competitive" if that floats your boat. Four of nine losses have been by three touchdowns or more.
and as each game went on and we lost another player to IR and then another and then another it only reinforced my belief that the Giants know they'd be nuts to let TC go.
And I don't think it has anything to with us beating this terrible Titans team.
Injuries are a part of the game. You make do with what you have...we didn't and some fault wasn't Coughlin's (like Charles Brown, James Brewer and Co. looking like parking cones out there), but some is his fault. As John Mara asked last year, "what took us so long to realize what he had in Jerrel Jernigan?"
How is THIS "significantly better football" than last year? Â
4-5 years for tom and then tom can decide if or when wants to leave coaching. He deserves that.
Just as the players he cuts when they don't perform, Tom too is not immune to getting fired. Not having a winning season for three straight years and missing the playoffs six out of seven seasons is unacceptable.
RE: 3 or 4 years? Hell, just give him a lifetime contract like Gene wants Â
Results don't matter much around East Rutherford anyway, so what difference would it make?
If the decision is made to keep him, then keep him and do it right. Another season of "Coughlin is under the gun" is not the answer.
I think it boils down to a simple question: Do you want to fire Coughlin as punishment for these two seasons or because you don't think he can ever get the job done again?
If it's the former, I think that's a shitty way to run a business. If it's the latter I think that's a fair reason, but the Giants don't seem to feel that way. And if they don't, they should really commit. View this as a 3 or 4 year project that is building towards something as opposed to a year to year thing where we may change horses in midstream after next season if we don't make the playoffs.
I think this whole thing aligns with Eli's career arc. If Eli's career figures to last another 4 years or so, shape the project that way. We've already seen the positives on the offensive side start to show.
Firing Coughlin might feel good, but that doesn't make it the productive move.
the mind that some actually think scrapping this offense and starting over with a new OC would be a good idea...let alone one that Giants would even consider.
To me, personnel has been more of an issue than coaching... Â
...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
If next year ends up going actually like this year, who would you guys blame them? The talent again? McAdoo? The new DC/Fewell?
It isn't about absolving Coughlin from blame. Coughlin absolutely owns some of the blame for these two poor seasons. No rational person would argue otherwise.
But the point isn't to mete out punishment for a job poorly done. The point is to ask whether he can do a better job going forward.
RE: Talent doesn't explain losing to Jacksonville Â
...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
If next year ends up going actually like this year, who would you guys blame them? The talent again? McAdoo? The new DC/Fewell?
It isn't about absolving Coughlin from blame. Coughlin absolutely owns some of the blame for these two poor seasons. No rational person would argue otherwise.
But the point isn't to mete out punishment for a job poorly done. The point is to ask whether he can do a better job going forward.
In comment 12026072 Matt in SGS said:
[quote] this tells you a few things
Coughlin has kept the team competitive. In pretty much every game, they were holding their own against teams with better personnel until they simply ran out of bullets and would lose late.
Huh??? (I try to respect everyone's opinions but...)
Lost by 21 in Detroit; They got embarrassed in Philly 27-0; I do recall that Indy was up at one point 40-7? Lost by 21 against Seattle. lost at home to Cards with a guy that hadn't played QB in 5 years. Swept by the Cowboys....
Oh and they lost 7 in a row to obliterate the season.
If that's being competitive we've kind of loosely defined the term, No?
If next year ends up going actually like this year, who would you guys blame them? The talent again? McAdoo? The new DC/Fewell?
It isn't about absolving Coughlin from blame. Coughlin absolutely owns some of the blame for these two poor seasons. No rational person would argue otherwise.
But the point isn't to mete out punishment for a job poorly done. The point is to ask whether he can do a better job going forward.
Alright and what makes you think that he can? He's been here since 2004 and since then, only two times has he won playoff games. The rest of those years have been clunkers.
RE: Talent doesn't explain losing to Jacksonville Â
Giants lost to shitty teams during their Super Bowl years as well. Remember the Todd Collins game against Washington in '07? Vince Young at home in 2011? Why harp on the Jacksonville game? Had they won that game by seven would it change your opinion of this team in any major way?
Count me among those who think TC's job was never really in any jeopardy. The decision to rebuild was made after last season (one too late) and TC was kept on board for the cycle.
If next year ends up going actually like this year, who would you guys blame them? The talent again? McAdoo? The new DC/Fewell?
Depends. If we have a comparable roster to last year, then I blame the talent.
I'm not a huge fan of Reese either, but I love how people are screaming for his head and not Coughlin's. Coughlin didn't win a playoff game until Reese became GM.
RE: RE: To me, personnel has been more of an issue than coaching... Â
...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
I don't know about that. We've played musical chairs with the coordinators...and yet one thing remains constant.
...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
The team has abysmal talent and there is no reason to "let" him choose his head coach. That is happy horseshit. Reese has a hall of fame coach now. If he can't get the talent together, that is on him. That had better fix the talent evaluation process if anything.
RE: RE: Talent doesn't explain losing to Jacksonville Â
Giants lost to shitty teams during their Super Bowl years as well. Remember the Todd Collins game against Washington in '07? Vince Young at home in 2011? Why harp on the Jacksonville game? Had they won that game by seven would it change your opinion of this team in any major way?
Count me among those who think TC's job was never really in any jeopardy. The decision to rebuild was made after last season (one too late) and TC was kept on board for the cycle.
Your argument would hold more weight if we've actually showed improvement. Somehow we have managed to regress and are worse than last year.
played for the Saints and was captain of his Div 1 college football team. When I mentioned that the Giants should get rid of Coughlin, he laughed at me and said you do not get rid of Hall of Fame Head Coaches and that TC will be Hall of Fame.
If next year ends up going actually like this year, who would you guys blame them? The talent again? McAdoo? The new DC/Fewell?
Depends. If we have a comparable roster to last year, then I blame the talent.
I'm not a huge fan of Reese either, but I love how people are screaming for his head and not Coughlin's. Coughlin didn't win a playoff game until Reese became GM.
I think that's a bit unfair. That 2007 draft was a very good one, but the team had matured a bunch too after losing in the playoffs in 2005 and 2006. And I'd go to say that Acorsi's drafts had more to do with winning playoff games than Reese's did.
we won a SB with him as the DC against Brady who arguably is the best 1 or 2 and likely the best big-game QB of the last 10 years. It is a talent issue not a coaching issue and that is obvious and that is on the guys in charge of getting tyhe team players. TC is a H-G coach; Reese is not a HoF GM.
The only thing we know for a fact about our coaching staff Â
is that Coughlin knows how to win Super Bowls. Everyone/everything else is suspect. So why get rid of the one guy who has consistently shown us he knows how to get the job done?
ImaGiant...I refuse to call 2012 a poor season. 9-7 after a Super Bowl title with Hurricane Sandy screwing up the season is not some kind of miserable failure.
Anakim...you measure clunker of a season by whether there was a playoff victory in that year? 2005 (11-5), 2008 (12-4), 2010 (10-6), and 2012 (9-7) are clunkers to you? Even if they are, what makes you think another coach wins those games?
ImaGiant...I refuse to call 2012 a poor season. 9-7 after a Super Bowl title with Hurricane Sandy screwing up the season is not some kind of miserable failure.
Anakim...you measure clunker of a season by whether there was a playoff victory in that year? 2005 (11-5), 2008 (12-4), 2010 (10-6), and 2012 (9-7) are clunkers to you? Even if they are, what makes you think another coach wins those games?
Sandy is no excuse why we went into Atlanta with the division in our grasps and get shutout out. To then only follow it up with another pathetic showing in Baltimore.
It was a failure.
RE: The only thing we know for a fact about our coaching staff Â
is that Coughlin knows how to win Super Bowls. Everyone/everything else is suspect. So why get rid of the one guy who has consistently shown us he knows how to get the job done?
Consistently what? This Giants team hasn't been consistently ANYthing his entire term here. Or, if we're being honest, they consistently don't make the playoffs.
it is that he is too much a teacher. I sense that he wants everyone to improve, to become better, to be successful and I think he stands by his coordinators for too long. It seems he has to be forced to get rid of them and I believe that is because he wants to make them better; he wants them to succeed and has faith in them.
And I'd go to say that Acorsi's drafts had more to do with winning playoff games than Reese's did.
Sweet baby Jesus, do I have to detail the house of horrors that was Ernie Accorsi's draft record before Reese took over the draft in 2003? Do you really not remember what the 1998-2002 drafts were like?
Some certainly aren't shy about advertising their ignorance Â
ImaGiant...I refuse to call 2012 a poor season. 9-7 after a Super Bowl title with Hurricane Sandy screwing up the season is not some kind of miserable failure.
Anakim...you measure clunker of a season by whether there was a playoff victory in that year? 2005 (11-5), 2008 (12-4), 2010 (10-6), and 2012 (9-7) are clunkers to you? Even if they are, what makes you think another coach wins those games?
Simply put, yes. You play to win playoff games. 11-5, 12-4, etc. don't mean shit unless you actually win in the playoffs.
I was hoping for a coaching change, but I'd be OK with Coughlin returning so long as we get some changes to the position coaches. I see no reason for us to have dumped the RB and TE coaches last year while keeping the OL coach. Quinn has to go. Fewell should go too, although I'm reluctant based on Coughlin's prior experience selecting DCs. I think it's time Herrmann goes as well. It could easily be we haven't been getting these guys enough talent, but you can't just assume it's all on the players. We haven't developed a single OL or LB in forever, time to get some new blood over there.
It'll give McAdoo another year to grow into the position. Except for the couple of normal Eli bonehead plays, Eli and the offense hasn't been that bad. Especially without an Offensive line and losing Cruz. Thank God for Beckham!
I hope they realize that Quinn and Fewell must go and not let injuries be an excuse to keep either or both of them.
They need to hire a young innovative DC that will use the talent he has.
And if they're serious or speculation on our (BBI) part that they want to keep McAdoo, then get his input for a DC. Someone he's be able to work with.
I'm in the minority but I don't see Fewell as the problem either, I never thought this team was talented on paper going into the season. We had a lot of question marks. Most pundits picked us finishing last when the season started.
We were banking on JPP going back to his 2011 level, Damontre Moore replacing Tuck's production,and Eli rebounding in order for us to be competitive this year.
Only one out of the 3 above things happened this year.
Both seasons had horrific late season collapses that cost them a playoff berth. 2010 had the Eagles debacle, yeah, but they also were completely noncompetitive the next week in Green Bay with their season on the line. 2012, with their season again on the line, they proceeded to get smoked to the tune of a combined 67-14 in games 14 and 15.
And I'd go to say that Acorsi's drafts had more to do with winning playoff games than Reese's did.
Sweet baby Jesus, do I have to detail the house of horrors that was Ernie Accorsi's draft record before Reese took over the draft in 2003? Do you really not remember what the 1998-2002 drafts were like?
Actually, I didn't realize that Reese was doing the drafting starting in 2003......I thought he only took over in 2007.
However, I wasn't talking about 1998-2002. I was more of how the 2007 team was built....which I thought was Acorsi.
So then what was Acorsi...only GM in title? lol........
who kept running a completely useless Kiwanuka out there every week? Â
Yes, I've heard the knocks on Moore and Ayers. What difference did it make, however, when Kiwanuka did absolutely nothing whatsoever? No positive impact of any kind.
For as lofty a standard as BBI members demand of their players Â
...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
The team has abysmal talent and there is no reason to "let" him choose his head coach. That is happy horseshit. Reese has a hall of fame coach now. If he can't get the talent together, that is on him. That had better fix the talent evaluation process if anything.
A HOF coach thats teams have missed the playoffs six out of seven seasons while he has an elite QB in his prime. A HOF coach that is known more for his late season collapses than his coaching tree.
before getting too excited,but I'll say this.Where do the Giants think they are going with a 68 year old coach.I hope they don't think they are one year away.If so,they better study the Draft section of Pro Football Reference.Check out the playoff teams,and than if they really want to get depressed,look at teams which are up and coming.They all likely have more talent.This is going take a few years.
the team was out of it weeks ago and yet they are playing ball. thing is - we've seen this all before with Perry Fewell. defense sucks all year and then all of a sudden the coaching gets better, the players get better on defense, and it's like - what the fuck took so long? we're finally seeing moves to get the most out of our players and the season is over.
If conservative offense, defense, and STs are what you cant stand, that has to be on Coughlin. But if it's inconsistent play with grounded fundamentals at work, then i think the personell and the coordinators need to be seriously evaluated.
Fewell has botched so many game plans it's ridiculous to me... particularly this season. The Eagles game was the real beginning of his end in my mind. The Giants defense clearly was not prepared, and played like they knew they had the wrong strategy the entire game. ive seen enough out of fewell to know he's not our best coordinator and if we can get an upgrade there, id welcome it.
The question of the last two years is why didn't we make the playoffs Â
TC did not lose his coaching skills between February 5, 2012 and the following seasons. However, the team's talent level has declined and very significantly in some aspects.
Geez, you win one game against a lowly team and everything changes! Suddenly, the draft picks look great; we look like we're on the up and up; the losses of the past seem like a very distant memory...
TC did not lose his coaching skills between February 5, 2012 and the following seasons. However, the team's talent level has declined and very significantly in some aspects.
Geez, you win one game against a lowly team and everything changes! Suddenly, the draft picks look great; we look like we're on the up and up; the losses of the past seem like a very distant memory...
In comment 12026072 Matt in SGS said:
[quote] this tells you a few things
Coughlin has kept the team competitive. In pretty much every game, they were holding their own against teams with better personnel until they simply ran out of bullets and would lose late.
Huh??? (I try to respect everyone's opinions but...)
Lost by 21 in Detroit; They got embarrassed in Philly 27-0; I do recall that Indy was up at one point 40-7? Lost by 21 against Seattle. lost at home to Cards with a guy that hadn't played QB in 5 years. Swept by the Cowboys....
Oh and they lost 7 in a row to obliterate the season.
If that's being competitive we've kind of loosely defined the term, No?
Kinard,
I think the Giants have been evaluating the body of work throughout the season and have the Giants shown improvement. As I said, I think the organization (though they won't admit it), felt this was a rebuilding year. Why no Super Bowl countdown clock this season? Because it wasn't at Metlife?
And the early part of the season, I think the team understood there would be growing pains, and it showed in the Detroit and Philly games.
However, against teams that I think we all can agree are better than the Giants, look at the halftime scores:
- @ Dallas- tied 14-14
- vs. Colts- losing 16-3
- @ Seattle- winning 17-14
- vs. 49ers- losing 9-7
- vs Dallas- winning 21-10
The Colts game was still in shouting distance, but not great, otherwise, they were right there with better teams, and then they would run out of gas by the end of the game. That's what happens when you have a team with 20 guys on IR. I think the Giants front office looked at this, and looked at the roster, and felt that the problem here is not coaching. Ultimately, what was going to make or break TC this year was if the Giants showed improvement as the season went along, has he developed the young players and has he had his team ready to play. From what we saw, he had a team that can put up a fight for while but eventually the talent gap is too much to overcome.
The Titans game was big from the standpoint, again in evaluating Coughlin, his team blew a 21-0 lead against a bad team. The Giants could well have packed it in and said screw it. But you go back and look and they are up 30-0. This isn't a coach who has lost the team.
I have to admit, I get frustrated with TC at times, and I want to see results and think it might be time to replace him. The bottom line is that good coaches don't forget how to coach. Maybe their message gets lost, and that is a big key. But based on what we've seen, that's not happened. So I think that is why the Giants will keep him around again for another season.
It is like comparing QBs from different eras. Hard to assess. Plus, I do not know how good or bad he was. He had a pretty good record.
If you don't judge head coaches by Super Bowl victories (in particular in this age where there have been very few multiple SB winning head coaches, i.e., 2), then what should I judge TC by? Granted, there are other attributes of a HC - getting to the SB is one - but I would argue that winning the SB should carry the greatest weight. Winning two puts you on another echelon in today's NFL.
TC and McAdoo stay and they bring in a solid DC resurrecting the defense. Id be completely fine with that scenario.
And the fact that the usual mouthbreathers want TC gone without having the first clue who could possibly replace him - and the brand new OC who has pretty much been a success despite injury and an horrific offensive line at times - only serves to solidify his return.
Wouldn't be so sure. Fewells tc guy..plus continuity is what they aim for
Someone has to be sacrificed for two debacles in a row. Fewell is the lamb.
It's a representation of his inability to hire good coordinators/assistants and groom them. The very coordinators and assistants that are working hands on with our players. Our assistant coaches spend more time with the players than Coughlin and if they are generally unknowns who are interchangeable it could be a reason why we've seen slow or lack of development from many of our young players over the years.
...but this just brings down the expectation meter for next year for me. You can't argue with the two Lombardi's, but the last three or four seasons can't be ignored either.
In addition to TC, the question is whether JR will be back as well. The speculation has always centered around TC, but JR put this squad together and unfortunately his attempt to build it up to a respectable level has failed.
It is like comparing QBs from different eras. Hard to assess. Plus, I do not know how good or bad he was. He had a pretty good record.
If you don't judge head coaches by Super Bowl victories (in particular in this age where there have been very few multiple SB winning head coaches, i.e., 2), then what should I judge TC by? Granted, there are other attributes of a HC - getting to the SB is one - but I would argue that winning the SB should carry the greatest weight. Winning two puts you on another echelon in today's NFL.
You could make the case coaching today is more difficult, with 30-40% of your roster potentially turned over each year.
Anyway.....it's pretty much a given too that Al Davis was running those shows.....Flores...I'm not calling him a figure head, but..............there's reason why he's not in the HOF.
The championship core was toast by the end of 2012. The only failure was the front office not recognizing it soon enough.
BS Coughlin was ready to roll with Snee. The man retired in training camp. How in the hell does Coughlin not say hey the RG is an issue because I saw him over the holidays and he can't walk. Not developing young players is still an issue. The way vets are tenured in this regime still remains an issue. You now have pro bowlers coming here and confused around this coaching staff. Miscommunication between players and coaches, head coach and coordinators still an issue.
the Jacksonville game as a coaching failure. I guess I saw something different. Once Jennings went out, and once we were trotting out Dallas Reynolds at tackle, Schwartz in the locker room, and the rest of the wounded players, it was clear we had a void in talent.
Then, I see people bitching about running the ball as a glaring coaching mistake when we had three key bad plays happen while we were passing the ball.
That line was atrocious.
It sucked to lose to jacksonville, but people acting as if we were the '85 Bears losing to a HS team are way off base.
...but this just brings down the expectation meter for next year for me. You can't argue with the two Lombardi's, but the last three or four seasons can't be ignored either.
In addition to TC, the question is whether JR will be back as well. The speculation has always centered around TC, but JR put this squad together and unfortunately his attempt to build it up to a respectable level has failed.
I think 2 Super Bowl wins has given TC and Reese the credibility with Mara and Tisch that they have the right guys to bring this organization. The Giants failure was to misjudge the collapse at the end of 2012 as a blip on the radar rather than a signal that the 2011 championship core team had passed. They tried to hold off a rebuild in 2013 to take a chance at the Super Bowl with one last hurrah and it blew up in their faces. Look at the moves the Giants made going into this season. They brought in a new/young offensive coordinator. They have moved on from some of their old guard (Snee, Tuck, Jacobs, etc). They changed their drafting approach to focus more on team first leaders rather than going for the boom/bust guys who failed here the past few years. As I said above, the Giants wouldn't admit it, but this was a rebuilding season. As the season winds down, I think they have some confidence in this offense now. Come next year, they will focus on the defense (hence I would expect Fewell to get the heave ho and they will bring in a new defensive coordinator). For a change, skill position players appear to be in place, go and focus on the offensive line and bring in a new coordinator on defense to work with the front office to bring in talent on defense, and things will look brighter in 2015.
No one outside of the Coughlin dead-enders on BBI gives a steaming shit about what Coughlin did in Jacksonville. Dom Capers got the Panthers into the NFC title game within a couple of years too - who cares?
And I'd go to say that Acorsi's drafts had more to do with winning playoff games than Reese's did.
Sweet baby Jesus, do I have to detail the house of horrors that was Ernie Accorsi's draft record before Reese took over the draft in 2003? Do you really not remember what the 1998-2002 drafts were like?
McAdoo ain't the guy at least yet and are we gonna have three offensive seasons in three years? That's what shitshows like the Jets do.
This is a crucial point. You've gotta wonder if Coughlin would be in more danger if his coordinators were Gilbride and Fewell, and the front office knew it could start over completely.
You gave Coughlin 2004, 2005, and 2006, but you won't give him 2012, 2013, and 2014 AFTER he won two Super Bowls with the team?
Considering it was his first few years with the team and with a very young QB who needed stability, yes. But I honestly wanted to fire Coughlin during the 2007 season before we went on that run. Thank Ahmad Bradshaw for that run in Buffalo in the snow.
That 2006 team talked about super bowl aspirations all season long and Â
I'm not absolving Coughlin of blame, but he doesn't get all of it either. The roster was decaying in 2012, horrific in 2013, and slightly better than that in 2014.
are you firing Coughlin out of punishment or because you don't think he can do the job in 2015?
We get it, the Giants have missed the playoffs 3 years running...everyone knows that. Giants MGMT wants to win. We know that too. Maybe they feel that Coughlin can right the ship rather than go out and sign an unknown while losing McAdoo in the process.
The constant age talk to me is annoying and pointless..Coughlin is not too old, that's all that matters.
the head coach accountable for the quality and coaching (and results) of his coordinators. It is something that TC has never been personally accountable for.
Whether this off-season we should get rid of TC is a bit beside the point. The fact that he is able to keep removing coordinators that he chose and stay simply defies logic.
And for those saying, you don't make a change and force a change on Eli, well if we change coordinators, you will be saying the same thing regarding the defense and being in the first year of the new defense...again.
If TC stays and it does not work, I frankly blame Mara. He stupidly put a band-aid on a clear rebuilding year and a full change should have been made last year. And unfortunately only time will tell...and I have to, have to hope that I am wrong.
"Punishment".....since when is accountability for shitty performance "punishment"? 6 seasons, 5 times sitting at home in January. The 2011 fluke only excuses so much.
hasn't lost the team. It's been a few years since they've played at or above their talent level.
I get that the roster has been a work in progress, and injuries and bad drafting have left us an incomplete team. At the same time, we've had our franchise QB throughout that period, and we've only had more than 10 wins twice in the last 10 (and counting) seasons. If next season is also a wash, we've got very little of Eli's prime left, and we'll be right back where we are this year, talking about coordinators and interrupting continuity.
Continuity is good when things are going well; when the results are inconsistent, I'm not sure what continuity buys you.
The Giants don't really think of it as "holding someone responsible" Â
that's a fans way of saying, "my team sucks so fire that guy". The only question the Giants consider is a) can TC fix the team and b) if so, what needs to be done.
Has been trending upwards on his lat 2 drafts. It seems as though we are not taking as many risks and it was clear the kind of players they wanted in the 2014 draft, which is looking very good. On pace for a Top 10 draft pick this year, which SHOULD net at least 2 players with first round talent.
If Reese nails this draft and comes away with 3-4 good players (hopefully one star), you potentially have 3 solid drafts in a row.
This offseason if going to be a VERY big one for Reese. I, for one, and willing to roll the dice with him and see what hes got.
RE: I wonder how much Eli figures into this as well Â
He feels good with TC and I am sure he weighs in on McAdoo as well..
Eli's a 33 year old mostly average QB (production wise) at this juncture on a terrible team that's missed the playoffs 5/6 and realistically isn't likely to make them next year either, as there's massive talent issues almost everywhere (defeat of the mighty Titans aside).
No offense to him or what he's previously accomplished, but his opinion really shouldn't mean much to this team's plans at this point, as he's not likely going to end up part of the solution here himself.
Has been trending upwards on his lat 2 drafts. It seems as though we are not taking as many risks and it was clear the kind of players they wanted in the 2014 draft, which is looking very good. On pace for a Top 10 draft pick this year, which SHOULD net at least 2 players with first round talent.
If Reese nails this draft and comes away with 3-4 good players (hopefully one star), you potentially have 3 solid drafts in a row.
This offseason if going to be a VERY big one for Reese. I, for one, and willing to roll the dice with him and see what hes got.
That's because Mara asked him to get back involve with personal visits. Mara is also the same guy to asked him to step back from process after 2007 and allocate duties with Coughlin and he hired Ross. Mara knows what the deal is even if fans don't. Chris Mara was promoted two seasons ago. Reese talked about going back out on the road the last two years.
Better talent will make all the coaches look better. Maybe except Fewell (I just don't like his overall scheme!)
Better talent will make any coaches look better. How about better coaches to make marginal talent look better?
Or better yet, coaches that do a good enough job such that not every position needs to have a 1st or 2nd round pick manning it, otherwise it's labeled 'ignored' or 'overlooked'? Or a coach that takes a player who is otherwise incomplete coming out of college, and works with them to correct their form and improve their production? Can we get some of those guys?
I still don't know if Quinn is a good or bad coach Â
I don't know what the parameters are for a ST coach to judge. I can only give the eye test and not a technical evaluation. To me it seems that Quinn gets shitted on because of the piling on nature of this place
Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
RE: RE: no, Quinn still looks like a fucking clown Â
Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
???? Fewell is from Coughlin's Jacksonville staff and Quinn was hired by Coughlin. How in the hell can anyone claim "he got stuck" with them?
Quinn is a bad coach because his unit isn't very good Â
I don't know what the parameters are for a ST coach to judge. I can only give the eye test and not a technical evaluation. To me it seems that Quinn gets shitted on because of the piling on nature of this place
Proof is in the pudding... Have the Giants had a single good ST's season under Quinn? You cant possibly believe in all his years here he never had the right guys? Other than specialized players (PR/KR, LS, PK, & P) how many team sign/draft guys for their ST's talent? There are guys like Tyree who make a career out of STs, but generally its back ups and younger players... thats what ST coaches have to work with. He has no excuse
RE: RE: RE: no, Quinn still looks like a fucking clown Â
Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
???? Fewell is from Coughlin's Jacksonville staff and Quinn was hired by Coughlin. How in the hell can anyone claim "he got stuck" with them?
Didnt say "he", I meant Giants, and us as fans, got stuck with those guys.
What in the world made Coughlin hire a college coach Â
Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
???? Fewell is from Coughlin's Jacksonville staff and Quinn was hired by Coughlin. How in the hell can anyone claim "he got stuck" with them?
Didnt say "he", I meant Giants, and us as fans, got stuck with those guys.
Oh because, it looks like you absolved Coughlin of those hires.
RE: Why are people 'mouthbreathers' for wanting to replace him? Â
what a shitty post. I lean toward giving him another year (hopefully with a new DC and actual Oline), but there is a perfectly reasonable argument for bringing in some new blood after the past 2 trainwreck seasons. Yes, the Giants are again decimated by injuries and with JAGS all over the field, but TC has been downright bad in games this and last year (re-watch the Colts games specifically...he looked lost).
The Giants keep missing the playoffs in what isn't some world-beater division. Even in 2011, they squeaked in due to the length of JPP's arms. TC should stay IMO, but it's not crazy to maintain otherwise.
Sure it is. He is currently the most successful head coach in the entire NFL. There isn't a single head coach who has more SB trophies in the past 7 years. Firing the the guy who has won the most SB in the immediate past is ... well ... its nuts. That's like firing someone for being successful. I know. They've sucked for 2 years. And they are going to suck next year too. But there still isn't a single coach out there who has won more SB trophies more recently than Coughlin.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: no, Quinn still looks like a fucking clown Â
Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
???? Fewell is from Coughlin's Jacksonville staff and Quinn was hired by Coughlin. How in the hell can anyone claim "he got stuck" with them?
Didnt say "he", I meant Giants, and us as fans, got stuck with those guys.
Oh because, it looks like you absolved Coughlin of those hires.
Yeah I understand... should have clarified better, but thats not what I meant.
I lost faith in TC mid-way through 2011 season, and a couple of months later he GLADLY made me eat crow. I wont make the same mistake again. But there's little doubt Fewell & Quinn need to go. But unfortunately, with TC's track record I wont believe it till I see it.
Yes, he was the HC of two great, weird and improbable SB runs, but when they're surrounded by consistently whiffing on the playoffs, issues hiring staff, and doing so out of a mostly meh division (before this season) and with an alleged franchise QB never missing a game, in an era where making the playoffs is as easy as it ever has been, Vince Lombardi prime, he is clearly not.
At some point, that eventually gets played out, doesn't it?
Is that point next year, when they'll have likely missed the playoffs six out of seven years and won't be any closer to real rebuild than they were a couple years ago?
Gets played out only if it doesn't work. If it works who gives a shit?I myself don't care if they rotate the coaching staff at the same time they rebuild the roster. So they spread it out over a couple of years with a methodical approach instead of of throwing the chessboard up in the air in frustration and rage? Fine, so what, long as it gets results, and it may.change over time as opposed to sudden change is not a band-aid by definition. Change is change.
Dump Fewell, Quinn, Ross and Palmieri.Fire a couple of scouts.See what shakes out.Doesn't make sense to make a HC or QB change till after the 2015 season anyway, when their contracts are up.No definitive upgrades available, none cited, regardless of year long speculation.
Most of us would rather keep Tom Coughlin than roll the dice on David Shaw or Todd Bowles or Adam Gase or whoever else. Particularly when we're right smack in the middle of a rebuilding process with a 33-year-old quarterback. Coughlin's job has likely never been in jeopardy this season, so the joke is on the "Fire Coughlin" crowd here.
First off- “The offense is broken” means that when your O-Line is depleted and the QB is under constant duress with no room to step up in the pocket… You don’t keep calling 5 and 7 step drops. Adjustments weren’t made. Gilbride designed a thing of beauty… when it worked. When the pieces started to fall apart, he didn’t adjust the script. That’s why he’s gone.
Secondly- They are high on McAdoo… But they are high on Coughlin as well. He’s kept a team full of cast offs, street free agents and has beens playing hard… In spite of the continued issues on the O-Line, save for the SF game, Eli has shown that he is still capable of being a top level quarterback and has thrived in the new system, when the line has given him time. They didn’t think coming into the season that they were going to be able to make a run this year… It was a two year rebuild. A ridiculous amount of injuries only put a magnifying glass on all of the teams blemishes. Still though, this team could have easily been 8-5 right now had things fallen differently… ( AZ, SF, Dallas, Jax). In spite of the media hub bub, as I told you a month ago… TC is going nowhere.
However…. I also told you that TC blew a gasket with Fewell. Since then all of a sudden Fewell starts to dial up a bunch of pressure that we didn’t see all season? Shouldn’t have had to come to that… And don’t think shutting out a pop warner Texans team saves Fewell’s job. Watch a gimpy RG3 read option past JPP three times on Sunday….
Finally… Job #1 this offseason is O-Line. That doesn’t mean just a LG to plug in with Beatty, Ritchburg, Schwartz and Pugh. Injuries happen… And you have a $17 Million QB that can’t sneeze without his ribs killing him. NO one figured in August that Schwartz would play one game, Pugh would be playing with one arm and that the supporting cast would be from the land of misfit toys. The aforementioned will likely be the only returning on the other line...
It does if the GM built the roster with the gutless, hapless ,helpess and hopeless.Blame him not the HC.
You can't just have any random collection of assholes, call them a football team and then blame the coach if they suck.
...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
Heh, what makes you think that if he's already proven his incompetence at putting together a roster that they are obliged to let him then fuck up an HC hire?????
what a shitty post. I lean toward giving him another year (hopefully with a new DC and actual Oline), but there is a perfectly reasonable argument for bringing in some new blood after the past 2 trainwreck seasons. Yes, the Giants are again decimated by injuries and with JAGS all over the field, but TC has been downright bad in games this and last year (re-watch the Colts games specifically...he looked lost).
The Giants keep missing the playoffs in what isn't some world-beater division. Even in 2011, they squeaked in due to the length of JPP's arms. TC should stay IMO, but it's not crazy to maintain otherwise.
Sure it is. He is currently the most successful head coach in the entire NFL. There isn't a single head coach who has more SB trophies in the past 7 years. Firing the the guy who has won the most SB in the immediate past is ... well ... its nuts. That's like firing someone for being successful. I know. They've sucked for 2 years. And they are going to suck next year too. But there still isn't a single coach out there who has won more SB trophies more recently than Coughlin.
You're a piece of work. Say he's he most successful but cherry pick what time period to support your argument ignoring the guy in NE who has more ring and always has a competitive team, no matter the roster or injuries.
I can't see our organization really keen on having Eli learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. Fewell needs to be shown the door. Quinn needed to be gone yesterday. Major changes I'd like to see after this, is a hard look at our strength and conditioning program. Also, I'd like to see Reese being more involved with the draft, and Ross much less involved.
Spot on David. I'd give Ross the boot completely. McAdoo also needs to be given free reign.
RE: RE: RE: Why are people 'mouthbreathers' for wanting to replace him? Â
You're a piece of work. Say he's he most successful but cherry pick what time period to support your argument ignoring the guy in NE who has more ring and always has a competitive team, no matter the roster or injuries.
What? You don't like FACTS? Name a single NFL coach who has won more more SB trophies more recently than the old man who can't remember how to coach named Coughlin?
You, my friend, are the piece of work. I am not cherry picking anything. I am stating a fucking fact. He is the most recent winner of the most SB trophies. Interpretation? Any argument that he is too old or the game has passed him by are idiotically stupid and rebutted by the very fact I quote. Nobody has been more successful more recently than Coughlin. That isn't cherry picking anything - but your fucking brain.
You're a piece of work. Say he's he most successful but cherry pick what time period to support your argument ignoring the guy in NE who has more ring and always has a competitive team, no matter the roster or injuries.
What? You don't like FACTS? Name a single NFL coach who has won more more SB trophies more recently than the old man who can't remember how to coach named Coughlin?
You, my friend, are the piece of work. I am not cherry picking anything. I am stating a fucking fact. He is the most recent winner of the most SB trophies. Interpretation? Any argument that he is too old or the game has passed him by are idiotically stupid and rebutted by the very fact I quote. Nobody has been more successful more recently than Coughlin. That isn't cherry picking anything - but your fucking brain.
Fact is Belichick is a more successful coach. More rings, more conference championships, more division crowns, and a better winning percentage, First ballot hall of fame coach and the most successful active coach. Those are the facts.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why are people 'mouthbreathers' for wanting to replace him? Â
Fact is Belichick is a more successful coach. More rings, more conference championships, more division crowns, and a better winning percentage, First ballot hall of fame coach and the most successful active coach. Those are the facts.
Are you really that dense? Show me where I said anywhere that Coughlin was a better coach than Belichick. What I said is that Coughlin has won more SB more recently than any other coach in football.
I didn't say who was the greatest ever.
I didn't say who had the most rings.
I didn't say who is the most remote winner of multiple super bowls.
Nope. I said who is the most RECENT winner of multiple super bowls. And his name happens to be TOM COUGHLIN. I know that doesn't fit your warped scenario or mindset - but sorry about that - it's a FACT you are simply going to have to deal with.
Fact is Belichick is a more successful coach. More rings, more conference championships, more division crowns, and a better winning percentage, First ballot hall of fame coach and the most successful active coach. Those are the facts.
Are you really that dense? Show me where I said anywhere that Coughlin was a better coach than Belichick. What I said is that Coughlin has won more SB more recently than any other coach in football.
I didn't say who was the greatest ever.
I didn't say who had the most rings.
I didn't say who is the most remote winner of multiple super bowls.
Nope. I said who is the most RECENT winner of multiple super bowls. And his name happens to be TOM COUGHLIN. I know that doesn't fit your warped scenario or mindset - but sorry about that - it's a FACT you are simply going to have to deal with.
Is this not your quote?
Quote:
He is currently the most successful head coach in the entire NFL.
the question is whether he's the right man for the job moving foward. His past successes are sensational, but they are in the past.
Joe Gibbs had an outstanding record with the Redskins. 3 Super Bowls and multiple 12+ win seasons. In spite of that, by 2006 (at age 67) he clearly was no longer the right guy for the job.
IMV the answer is "yes", but it's a guarded yes and certainly not predicated on what are now 7 and 3 year old occurrences. I'm looking forward.
"He is currently the most successful head coach in the entire NFL."
Ok. I'll reword the above quote so it is very clear.
I am not asking who is the greatest coach of all time.
I am not asking what coach has the most SB rings.
I am not asking who was the first coach to win multiple super bowls.
What I am asking is - who is the most recent coach to win multiple super bowls?
His name is Tom Coughin. That may not fit nicely within the agenda of many here on BBI. It's just really funny to hear supposed fans of a team whose coach is the one who has most recently won multiple championships try to find arguments about why he doesn't know what he's doing.
It's literally laughable. Fortunately it is very unlikely that those fans are going to get what they want. Precisely because it is so dumb.
Palmieri (the Strength & Conditioning coach) is TC's guy too. Â
"He is currently the most successful head coach in the entire NFL."
Ok. I'll reword the above quote so it is very clear.
I am not asking who is the greatest coach of all time.
I am not asking what coach has the most SB rings.
I am not asking who was the first coach to win multiple super bowls.
What I am asking is - who is the most recent coach to win multiple super bowls?
His name is Tom Coughin. That may not fit nicely within the agenda of many here on BBI. It's just really funny to hear supposed fans of a team whose coach is the one who has most recently won multiple championships try to find arguments about why he doesn't know what he's doing.
It's literally laughable. Fortunately it is very unlikely that those fans are going to get what they want. Precisely because it is so dumb.
You're not worth further time discussing this with. You only choose to frame the question in a way that ensures you get the desired answer to support your argument. While at the same time entirely ignoring everything that's relevant to the situation. Debating with your kind is pointless and a waste of energy.
Coughlin's job has likely never been in jeopardy this season, so the joke is on the "Fire Coughlin" crowd here.
Actually, the joke's on all of us who have been watching horrific football for the past three seasons. But hey, if Coughlin jocksniffers are happy, who am I to say otherwise.
You're not worth further time discussing this with. You only choose to frame the question in a way that ensures you get the desired answer to support your argument. While at the same time entirely ignoring everything that's relevant to the situation. Debating with your kind is pointless and a waste of energy.
I'm not trying to debate anything with you. I'm just pointing out a FACT you find uncomfortable. But, genius that you are, I'm sure you'll just ignore it.
The FACT is that the man can coach. He's proven that.
The FACT is that the talent he's been given to work with is some of the very worst in the entire league.
The FACT is that this year will be the second in a row when the team should get a high draft pick to help add some real value and IMPACT players like Beckham.
Add those FACTS up and what you have is a team that is getting some impact players for a Coach who has won more Super Bowls most recently than anyone else. As a Giants fan, I happen to like those FACTS.
Greg, I think Coughlin (and his team) made serious errors in 2012 (namely involving Diehl and Locklear) and 2010 (Quinn), but I have a hard time allocating blame for him for this and last year. Our roster is terrible.
I don't think Fewell was nearly as bad of a hire as people are making it out to be (I tend to think most here overestimate the average team's ability to make key stops, but that's another discussion). He should go after this year, though. He isn't very good.
If management is honest with the roster (which TC obviously deserves blame - it's annoying that some act like he has no say in personnel), they had to have known this year would be bad. Expecting this, it seems merely punitive to fire him unless there's someone better out there. I don't see an obvious upgrade available, but I'm not that close to the coordinators/college game to know, really, which leads me to not want to make a move.
I obviously see why some think he should be fired. And maybe he should. But I don't have a good reason other than being disappointed in our results the past few years.
Most of us would rather keep Tom Coughlin than roll the dice on David Shaw or Todd Bowles or Adam Gase or whoever else. Particularly when we're right smack in the middle of a rebuilding process with a 33-year-old quarterback. Coughlin's job has likely never been in jeopardy this season, so the joke is on the "Fire Coughlin" crowd here.
Yes, firing a coach who's led the club to 2 losing seasons in a row and 1 playoff appearance in 6 years is too much of a gamble.
and then a 7 game losing streak. That included losing to the worst team in football. If he comes back, (which I doubt). He's the true Teflon Don
Hell yeah!! What more has to happen for guys to move on from TC ? He's is an slighty above average coach, who can definitely be replaced. I sick and tired of guys destroying everyone else, but sticking up for TC. I would take Mccarty over TC.
RE: this idea that TC is more successful than a guy like Belichick is one Â
Yes, he was the HC of two great, weird and improbable SB runs, but when they're surrounded by consistently whiffing on the playoffs, issues hiring staff, and doing so out of a mostly meh division (before this season) and with an alleged franchise QB never missing a game, in an era where making the playoffs is as easy as it ever has been, Vince Lombardi prime, he is clearly not.
Yeah, Bellichick has 11 double digit victory seasons in a row. But Coughlin who has 3 no winning seasons in a row is the best coach in football. Just nuts.
The FACT is that the man can coach. He's proven that.
The FACT is that the talent he's been given to work with is some of the very worst in the entire league.
The FACT is that this year will be the second in a row when the team should get a high draft pick to help add some real value and IMPACT players like Beckham.
How the hell is your opinion on our talent level a fact?
We've got a 2 time SB MVP franchise QB. We've got a guy who's competing for ROY. There was certainly more than enough talent on this roster to beat the likes of Jacksonville, something which our own coach said would have been more likely 'if we had just taken a knee' for every play in the 2nd half.
People shit on our talent all the time - but it's just as easy to say the coaches are doing jack shit with the talent they've been given. Teams go 3-10 when they're starting the likes of Geno Smith or a rookie QB, not with an established veteran franchise QB at the helm.
The problem with this is that talent argument can go on forever. The team can go 5-11 again next year, and the debate will pick up right where we left off. It seems that Coughlin is simply not responsible for losses. When we win, he's a SB caliber coach though.
and hopefully its true that TC will return for another year. There is no doubt that the giants need and will make changes to the coaching staff. If TC fails to cooperate in this area could spell his demise. Honestly, except for Mcadoo, all the other coaches should be replaced. We need a new mentallity on the offensive line, and the entire defense. Its time for a coaches, personal, and culture change on this defense.
I believe that they need to bring JPP, and Rolle back and get another linebacker like Kennard. This would be a good start.
Most of us would rather keep Tom Coughlin than roll the dice on David Shaw or Todd Bowles or Adam Gase or whoever else. Particularly when we're right smack in the middle of a rebuilding process with a 33-year-old quarterback. Coughlin's job has likely never been in jeopardy this season, so the joke is on the "Fire Coughlin" crowd here.
Yes, firing a coach who's led the club to 2 losing seasons in a row and 1 playoff appearance in 6 years is too much of a gamble.
If you're going back six years, you might as well go back 60. The 2009-2012 Giants were totally different teams, and overall I'd say there was a nice progression there until the wheels came off at the end of 2012. Eight wins in 2009, 10 in 2010, and SB title in 2011. TC has not underachieved with these last two teams. If anything he overachieved last year. He can still coach. TC returning next year is a predictable outcome, and always has been. He certainly hasn't been talking like a guy who's expecting to be fired.
OLine and a lot of other talent issues. Why is it people only use that argument in one direction?
Because the QB's the most important guy on the field these days. Those other teams weren't exactly rolling in talent otherwise either.
We beat up on a bunch of stiffs and managed a much better record than what we were worth this year, as evidenced by our record this year when there were far fewer slouches on the schedule.
The thing to consider, which nobody is going to like and I don't believe it to be the case - is that maybe Coughlin was just along for the ride with superior talent, and when that talent level declined that was that.
the one fact that has affected wether we do well or have 2013s or 2014s has been health. 2011 for the run we got healthy and went on a run. Forget all the crap about simplifying defenses and offenses, the key has remain and always will be about health. The org needs to take a strong look at the players we draft and get in FA and what we are doing with conditioning, equipment, the turf at the stadium, etc.
1. Fire his entire staff, except McAdoo. Fewell, Quinn, Flaherty, Nunn, Hermann are must-fires. No exceptions.
2. Concede offensive control and creativity to McAdoo. Fuck balance.
3. Revisit his strength & conditioning and medical services.
4. Allow management to hire a quality control analyst that Coughlin has no influence over. A former head coach that will analyze TC's gameplan week after week and offer advice on what he sees and how he would attack the Giants. Coughlin's ability to self-scout his team is maybe his worst quality.
I concede #4 is a bit outrageous, but we fucking get exposed every week with the same shit. Either they aren't seeing it in the film or people are scared to say shit.
problem with that argument is that defense played very well against Wilson, even though the score didn't reflect it.
TC had superior talent? No disrespect to those teams but you might want to look at those rosters again - top corners - no, safeties - no. LBs? not hardly - very good DE rotation - DTs - B - B+.
OL - mostly FAs who played well together. Whose going to the HOF from that line?
WR corps - could never get three guys together -
best TE was a head case, others played over their heads.
RBs - Bradshaw the lionhearted, Jacobs the mighty - not pro bowlers
Lot of lunch pail guys - and only certain HCs can wring championships out of a lunch pail. There is a reason why people don't make that along for the ride argument.
Where did this concept that you win SBs if you have HoFers Â
You know who votes the players to the Pro Bowl, right?
Similarly - that Seattle team that won last season was a bunch of late round draft picks and FAs who played well together.
If we need to assemble a collection of Pro Bowl caliber players with a HoFer or two, it might take a bit longer than 2015 to get back to competitive football....
It will probably happen, but, what makes people think he will replace him with someone who is as good or better? Record at picking DCs is not spectacular. Although, to be fair, had he gotten his first pick, we probably would have never gone thru as many DCs (Greg Williams).
I said it after we won in 2011. He has a lifetime appointment. Â
I don't see find the argument that the Giant SB teams were loaded with talent. At certain spots - yeah, but for the most part - lunch pail crew.
And, Seattle is not the best comparison because they drafted extremely well, regardless of the round. they grabbed the players that fit what they wanted to do. same same for the FAs - Avril, Bennett - they were very good players when they left their former teams.
but yeah - I don't disagree that it's not about getting all HOF or pro bowlers. My disagreement is about the raw talent level.
Doug Vrabel had the best line - "We're not collecting talent - we're building a team" (not verbatim)
Coughlin is a quality coach and is probably one of the best guys to have when the chips are done.
I do think we need to shake up the assistant coaches though, a fair amount of the lack of player development rests on their shoulders.
This doesn't even make any sense. He oversees every aspect of what you posted but the beginning sentence is a direct contradiction of your 2nd paragraph. TTH is right this is Joe Pa level stuff and there's no reasoning with that.
I'd probably go in another direction. Team needs to return to its' defensive roots but it is going to extremely difficult to find a rookie DC who can do that. So, I'd bring in a defensive coordinator, (e.g., Dan Quinn), as HC.
If TC stays - you bring in a sure thing for DC - everyone prepared to get their Rex Ryan man crush on?
Chris Mara seemed to think the problem could be fixed by getting rid of Gilbride. And, he also seemed to think players like JJ were getting a raw deal. Like it or not, that's the guy making the ultimate decisions - I'm not 100% confident re: his judgment.
it's too premature to say whether or not he should stay. the giants should definitely be doing their due diligence on alternatives . as much as reese and ross deserve some blame, this has been a really sloppy team this year and that falls on coughlin - from the seattle read zone debacle to the 5 INT game against SF, the failure to have the right people on the field against dallas or attempt anything resembling or faking pressure on the last drive, the list goes on.
the only mitigating factor is the offense really seems to be coming on strong with manning to beckham having some amazing potential.
(and no I dont care what you think will happen in the next 3 games). How does the owner tell the fans that a 4-12 team who havent sniffed the playoffs in yrs are bringing back the HC again? This decision cannot be made until the seasons end. The rest is speculation.
This is the big leagues. Last year was the year to start over. If the Giants had cleaned house and brought in Bill O'Brien, you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me. They decided instead to move forward with TC and a new offense - it was not a one-year move. To change course again just to bring in the hot assistant du jour is a mistake. It's not about fearing change - it's that they already made the change.
This is the big leagues. Last year was the year to start over. If the Giants had cleaned house and brought in Bill O'Brien, you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me. They decided instead to move forward with TC and a new offense - it was not a one-year move. To change course again just to bring in the hot assistant du jour is a mistake. It's not about fearing change - it's that they already made the change.
They can easily just finish that move - promote McAdoo to HC, give him authority to revise his staff, and tell him he's got a couple of seasons to get it all working.
Ideally, he'd have more experience, but if this is just because the offense is showing some potential, there are ways to build on that other than retaining status quo.
H
Results don't matter much around East Rutherford anyway, so what difference would it make?
If the decision is made to keep him, then keep him and do it right. Another season of "Coughlin is under the gun" is not the answer.
I think it boils down to a simple question: Do you want to fire Coughlin as punishment for these two seasons or because you don't think he can ever get the job done again?
If it's the former, I think that's a shitty way to run a business. If it's the latter I think that's a fair reason, but the Giants don't seem to feel that way. And if they don't, they should really commit. View this as a 3 or 4 year project that is building towards something as opposed to a year to year thing where we may change horses in midstream after next season if we don't make the playoffs.
I think this whole thing aligns with Eli's career arc. If Eli's career figures to last another 4 years or so, shape the project that way. We've already seen the positives on the offensive side start to show.
Firing Coughlin might feel good, but that doesn't make it the productive move.
(and no I dont care what you think will happen in the next 3 games). How does the owner tell the fans that a 4-12 team who havent sniffed the playoffs in yrs are bringing back the HC again? This decision cannot be made until the seasons end. The rest is speculation.
Losing the next three games is probably the only way they might get rid of Fewell at this point.
They'll toss him (and maybe Quinn) to the wolves and pat Teflon Tom and Saint Reese on the heads, setting themselves up for yet another wasted nothing year under the guise of continuity.
Coughlin's job has likely never been in jeopardy this season, so the joke is on the "Fire Coughlin" crowd here.
Actually, the joke's on all of us who have been watching horrific football for the past three seasons. But hey, if Coughlin jocksniffers are happy, who am I to say otherwise.
On this, we can 1000% agree. The more I think about this, this is a failure on Mara. The half way change was a failure on club management. Now that we did not improve, we are in no man's land. But giving TC the opening to change another coordinator is outright laughable. And I am not a Fewell fan at all. But TC chose him.
When BC took out ND in that famous game in 1993 at Notre Dame Stadium that cost the Irish the national championship, TC was the coach
He went 8-3-1 and 9-3 in 2 of his 3 seasons at BC and both of us know that you can't do much better than that up there since it is not a national power
you just have to hope he gets wiser as he gets older
Wellington started out as a spoiled kid who treated the Giants as his plaything but eventually became a good owner who let his football people run the show. John Mara is unfortunately a meddler. Let's hope he leans like Wellington did.
Opponents are thrilled that old man TC is at the helm Â
1. Fire his entire staff, except McAdoo. Fewell, Quinn, Flaherty, Nunn, Hermann are must-fires. No exceptions.
2. Concede offensive control and creativity to McAdoo. Fuck balance.
3. Revisit his strength & conditioning and medical services.
4. Allow management to hire a quality control analyst that Coughlin has no influence over. A former head coach that will analyze TC's gameplan week after week and offer advice on what he sees and how he would attack the Giants. Coughlin's ability to self-scout his team is maybe his worst quality.
I concede #4 is a bit outrageous, but we fucking get exposed every week with the same shit. Either they aren't seeing it in the film or people are scared to say shit.
youre basically cuckolding the guy from a football standpoint. Either let him run his own show or let him go. I dont see a lot of class and dignity in dictating virtually every term.
RE: Opponents are thrilled that old man TC is at the helm Â
still waiting for him to pull that red flag out of his sock. Jesus can't coaches ever step aside gracefully?
Chip Kelly said before his first game against the Giants game he saw flaws in their blocking scheme. Which was insane but more insane nothing was changed, no adjustment. Kelly just kept running double A gap blitzes. What coach is in charge of indentifying issues and making adjustments. Fire that guy too.
you just have to hope he gets wiser as he gets older
Wellington started out as a spoiled kid who treated the Giants as his plaything but eventually became a good owner who let his football people run the show. John Mara is unfortunately a meddler. Let's hope he leans like Wellington did.
no. eventually it got so bad, Rozelle stepped and gave George Young to the Giants, the condition being that Well had to butt out.
He became a "good" owner because Rozelle forced him to.
RE: RE: Opponents are thrilled that old man TC is at the helm Â
still waiting for him to pull that red flag jout of his sock. Jesus can't coaches ever step aside gracefully?
Chip Kelly said before his first game against the Giants game he saw flaws in their blocking scheme. Which was insane but more insane nothing was changed, no adjustment. Kelly just kept running double A gap blitzes. What coach is in charge of indentifying issues and making adjustments. Fire that guy too.
fuck Chip Kelly. His shelf life expires when he runs out of Reid's old players. He brilliantly spotted the fact that Walton and Jerry are iffy blockers and Richberg is a rookie. Bravo.
you just have to hope he gets wiser as he gets older
Wellington started out as a spoiled kid who treated the Giants as his plaything but eventually became a good owner who let his football people run the show. John Mara is unfortunately a meddler. Let's hope he leans like Wellington did.
no. eventually it got so bad, Rozelle stepped and gave George Young to the Giants, the condition being that Well had to butt out.
He became a "good" owner because Rozelle forced him to.
I was trying for a more positive spin
John is not as bad as Wellington, but he has some of the old man in him
Let's rewrite history. Roselle stepped in because of Wellinton Mara's meddling. What a crock of shit. Roselle stepped in because of irreconcilable differences between Wellington and co-owner Tim Mara
1. Fire his entire staff, except McAdoo. Fewell, Quinn, Flaherty, Nunn, Hermann are must-fires. No exceptions.
2. Concede offensive control and creativity to McAdoo. Fuck balance.
3. Revisit his strength & conditioning and medical services.
4. Allow management to hire a quality control analyst that Coughlin has no influence over. A former head coach that will analyze TC's gameplan week after week and offer advice on what he sees and how he would attack the Giants. Coughlin's ability to self-scout his team is maybe his worst quality.
I concede #4 is a bit outrageous, but we fucking get exposed every week with the same shit. Either they aren't seeing it in the film or people are scared to say shit.
And this was ridiculous the first time you posted it. You're cutting the man's balls off.
Whew! At least we can stop worrying about the Giants. It would have been incredibly unfair to blame this guy for the team's record and continued downward spiral. After all he is only the head coach and cannot be blamed for qualtiy of the drafts, the free agents, which players see the field, and the playcalling and the inept assistants.
I think it is an absolute joke that the coach who built a name preaching accountability ends up not being accountable at all.
The owners will likely do the politically correct thing... Â
...by kicking the can down the road yet again and keep both the head coach and the GM. Now telling the HC he has to fire most of his staff should prove interesting.
Some people here don't understand the term "accountable" Â
It may be that the hiring of McAdoo was done without Coughlin's complete sign off, for example. It may be that Coughlin's duties behind the scenes with regards to personnel selection have been changed. It's impossible to know without being on the inside.
But "accountable" most certainly does not mean "fired". "Fired" means "fired", so if that's what you want to see at least stop being so passive with your language and take a stand.
It may be that the hiring of McAdoo was done without Coughlin's complete sign off, for example. It may be that Coughlin's duties behind the scenes with regards to personnel selection have been changed. It's impossible to know without being on the inside.
But "accountable" most certainly does not mean "fired". "Fired" means "fired", so if that's what you want to see at least stop being so passive with your language and take a stand.
Accountable does not HAVE to mean fired. But accountable CAN mean fired.
question in my mind: obviously the players have not quit on Coughlin.
But does that mean he should not be fired?
Does that cancel out his poor gameplans, poor in-game clock management/decision-making, consistent undisciplined/stupid play of all his players, poor coordinators/assistant coaches, etc?
We are in a tough situation where the team is playing hard for the coach, but it may still be time to move on.
One could argue that TC is having a very good year, believe it or not. Consider the following scenario:
1. Bowman wraps up Ginn and he doesn't return a punt for a TD in the fourth quarter.
2. Demps doesn't fumble a kickoff return giving the Cards an easy field goal without having to drive.
3. Jennings doesn't fumble away on the Cards 15 yd line.
4. Eli doesn't choose to force a ball to a well-covered receiver at the 2 yard line on fourth and goal - a play that wouldn't have even resulted in a score if it wasn't caught yet turned into an INT against the Niners, capping four unsuccessful goal to go snaps from the four yard line.
5. Eli doesn't throw high to a wide-open Parker at the three yard line leading to an INT and 45 yd return against Dallas at home.
6. Jennings doesn't try to pick up the loose ball in the end zone against Jacksonville, but falls on it giving up the safety but preventing a TD in a game the Giants lose by one point.
Change the outcomes of these six plays and the Giants likely have four additional wins, meaning they would be 8-4 right now, one game out of the division with a rematch against Philly waiting and fully in contention for a wild-card spot in the NFC. When one considers the 20 players on IR, to be just six plays away from being a wild-card contender means that the Giants are a lot closer than we might want to give them credit for. In fact, I think that TC could theoretically have been a candidate for coach of the year with these outcomes changed.
Which of these plays is the fault of the coaches, as opposed to the fault of the players? I submit that perhaps one, the first and goal from the four with the three fades in a row against the Niners. Yet Eli is the one who makes that call at the line of scrimmage, and Eli is the one who threw the balls, and the receivers are the ones who failed to make the plays.
The remainder of the plays are just bad outcomes by players who were in a position to make a play but couldn't get it done. The coaches put them in the right position, but the players didn't execute.
I think it's fair to consider these types of arguments when determining what should be done with TC's contract.
One could argue that TC is having a very good year, believe it or not. Consider the following scenario:
1. Bowman wraps up Ginn and he doesn't return a punt for a TD in the fourth quarter.
2. Demps doesn't fumble a kickoff return giving the Cards an easy field goal without having to drive.
3. Jennings doesn't fumble away on the Cards 15 yd line.
4. Eli doesn't choose to force a ball to a well-covered receiver at the 2 yard line on fourth and goal - a play that wouldn't have even resulted in a score if it wasn't caught yet turned into an INT against the Niners, capping four unsuccessful goal to go snaps from the four yard line.
5. Eli doesn't throw high to a wide-open Parker at the three yard line leading to an INT and 45 yd return against Dallas at home.
6. Jennings doesn't try to pick up the loose ball in the end zone against Jacksonville, but falls on it giving up the safety but preventing a TD in a game the Giants lose by one point.
Change the outcomes of these six plays and the Giants likely have four additional wins, meaning they would be 8-4 right now, one game out of the division with a rematch against Philly waiting and fully in contention for a wild-card spot in the NFC. When one considers the 20 players on IR, to be just six plays away from being a wild-card contender means that the Giants are a lot closer than we might want to give them credit for. In fact, I think that TC could theoretically have been a candidate for coach of the year with these outcomes changed.
Which of these plays is the fault of the coaches, as opposed to the fault of the players? I submit that perhaps one, the first and goal from the four with the three fades in a row against the Niners. Yet Eli is the one who makes that call at the line of scrimmage, and Eli is the one who threw the balls, and the receivers are the ones who failed to make the plays.
The remainder of the plays are just bad outcomes by players who were in a position to make a play but couldn't get it done. The coaches put them in the right position, but the players didn't execute.
I think it's fair to consider these types of arguments when determining what should be done with TC's contract.
I hope he stays.
Are you kidding me? You can do that with any losing team and have their season turned around. No coach would ever get fired if he could simply go into the owners officer with what ifs and could haves.
He is going to be moved upstairs. If next year is another disappointment you move him, if it is a season we start showing some promise again you keep him coaching
I have lived through the ups and downs of this team for almost 40 years. Accountable means that if you are in charge you get the credit and the blame for the success and failures of the team. By that measure he should be fired.
What irks the hell out of me is the way many fans have segregated Coughlin from the rest of the management and players in terms of allocating blame. Why give him credit for the two Super Bowl championships that were engineered based upon his coaching, a good draft, the work of his assistants and the efforts of the players and then absolve him of responsibility when those same factors fail consistently for several years.
It may be that the hiring of McAdoo was done without Coughlin's complete sign off, for example. It may be that Coughlin's duties behind the scenes with regards to personnel selection have been changed. It's impossible to know without being on the inside.
But "accountable" most certainly does not mean "fired". "Fired" means "fired", so if that's what you want to see at least stop being so passive with your language and take a stand.
Accountable means you accept the consequences of your actions. What have been the consequences for TC, or for anyone in the organization other than a couple of of minor assistants last year (we all know Gilbride had been planning to quit for a year and did so of his own accord)?
One could argue that TC is having a very good year, believe it or not. Consider the following scenario:
1. Bowman wraps up Ginn and he doesn't return a punt for a TD in the fourth quarter.
2. Demps doesn't fumble a kickoff return giving the Cards an easy field goal without having to drive.
3. Jennings doesn't fumble away on the Cards 15 yd line.
4. Eli doesn't choose to force a ball to a well-covered receiver at the 2 yard line on fourth and goal - a play that wouldn't have even resulted in a score if it wasn't caught yet turned into an INT against the Niners, capping four unsuccessful goal to go snaps from the four yard line.
5. Eli doesn't throw high to a wide-open Parker at the three yard line leading to an INT and 45 yd return against Dallas at home.
6. Jennings doesn't try to pick up the loose ball in the end zone against Jacksonville, but falls on it giving up the safety but preventing a TD in a game the Giants lose by one point.
Change the outcomes of these six plays and the Giants likely have four additional wins, meaning they would be 8-4 right now, one game out of the division with a rematch against Philly waiting and fully in contention for a wild-card spot in the NFC. When one considers the 20 players on IR, to be just six plays away from being a wild-card contender means that the Giants are a lot closer than we might want to give them credit for. In fact, I think that TC could theoretically have been a candidate for coach of the year with these outcomes changed.
Which of these plays is the fault of the coaches, as opposed to the fault of the players? I submit that perhaps one, the first and goal from the four with the three fades in a row against the Niners. Yet Eli is the one who makes that call at the line of scrimmage, and Eli is the one who threw the balls, and the receivers are the ones who failed to make the plays.
The remainder of the plays are just bad outcomes by players who were in a position to make a play but couldn't get it done. The coaches put them in the right position, but the players didn't execute.
I think it's fair to consider these types of arguments when determining what should be done with TC's contract.
I hope he stays.
Imagine if the bomb on Hiroshima hadn't detonated. Truman would have had a lousy year.
One could argue that TC is having a very good year, believe it or not. Consider the following scenario:
1. Bowman wraps up Ginn and he doesn't return a punt for a TD in the fourth quarter.
2. Demps doesn't fumble a kickoff return giving the Cards an easy field goal without having to drive.
3. Jennings doesn't fumble away on the Cards 15 yd line.
4. Eli doesn't choose to force a ball to a well-covered receiver at the 2 yard line on fourth and goal - a play that wouldn't have even resulted in a score if it wasn't caught yet turned into an INT against the Niners, capping four unsuccessful goal to go snaps from the four yard line.
5. Eli doesn't throw high to a wide-open Parker at the three yard line leading to an INT and 45 yd return against Dallas at home.
6. Jennings doesn't try to pick up the loose ball in the end zone against Jacksonville, but falls on it giving up the safety but preventing a TD in a game the Giants lose by one point.
Change the outcomes of these six plays and the Giants likely have four additional wins, meaning they would be 8-4 right now, one game out of the division with a rematch against Philly waiting and fully in contention for a wild-card spot in the NFC. When one considers the 20 players on IR, to be just six plays away from being a wild-card contender means that the Giants are a lot closer than we might want to give them credit for. In fact, I think that TC could theoretically have been a candidate for coach of the year with these outcomes changed.
Which of these plays is the fault of the coaches, as opposed to the fault of the players? I submit that perhaps one, the first and goal from the four with the three fades in a row against the Niners. Yet Eli is the one who makes that call at the line of scrimmage, and Eli is the one who threw the balls, and the receivers are the ones who failed to make the plays.
The remainder of the plays are just bad outcomes by players who were in a position to make a play but couldn't get it done. The coaches put them in the right position, but the players didn't execute.
I think it's fair to consider these types of arguments when determining what should be done with TC's contract.
In comment 12026072 Matt in SGS said:
[quote] this tells you a few things
Coughlin has kept the team competitive. In pretty much every game, they were holding their own against teams with better personnel until they simply ran out of bullets and would lose late.
Huh??? (I try to respect everyone's opinions but...)
Lost by 21 in Detroit; They got embarrassed in Philly 27-0; I do recall that Indy was up at one point 40-7? Lost by 21 against Seattle. lost at home to Cards with a guy that hadn't played QB in 5 years. Swept by the Cowboys....
Oh and they lost 7 in a row to obliterate the season.
If that's being competitive we've kind of loosely defined the term, No?
Kinard,
I think the Giants have been evaluating the body of work throughout the season and have the Giants shown improvement. As I said, I think the organization (though they won't admit it), felt this was a rebuilding year. Why no Super Bowl countdown clock this season? Because it wasn't at Metlife?
And the early part of the season, I think the team understood there would be growing pains, and it showed in the Detroit and Philly games.
However, against teams that I think we all can agree are better than the Giants, look at the halftime scores:
- @ Dallas- tied 14-14
- vs. Colts- losing 16-3
- @ Seattle- winning 17-14
- vs. 49ers- losing 9-7
- vs Dallas- winning 21-10
The Colts game was still in shouting distance, but not great, otherwise, they were right there with better teams, and then they would run out of gas by the end of the game. That's what happens when you have a team with 20 guys on IR. I think the Giants front office looked at this, and looked at the roster, and felt that the problem here is not coaching. Ultimately, what was going to make or break TC this year was if the Giants showed improvement as the season went along, has he developed the young players and has he had his team ready to play. From what we saw, he had a team that can put up a fight for while but eventually the talent gap is too much to overcome.
The Titans game was big from the standpoint, again in evaluating Coughlin, his team blew a 21-0 lead against a bad team. The Giants could well have packed it in and said screw it. But you go back and look and they are up 30-0. This isn't a coach who has lost the team.
I have to admit, I get frustrated with TC at times, and I want to see results and think it might be time to replace him. The bottom line is that good coaches don't forget how to coach. Maybe their message gets lost, and that is a big key. But based on what we've seen, that's not happened. So I think that is why the Giants will keep him around again for another season.
The half time scores u posted shows me, there is talent on this team to be competitive. However, Ss Carl Banks said on the FAN radio, it is so important for coaches to make half time adjustments by the coach regardless of the score . From kwhat I seen, TC sucked on this. I'm so tired of hearing many on this site blaming everyone but TC.
I have lived through the ups and downs of this team for almost 40 years. Accountable means that if you are in charge you get the credit and the blame for the success and failures of the team. By that measure he should be fired.
What irks the hell out of me is the way many fans have segregated Coughlin from the rest of the management and players in terms of allocating blame. Why give him credit for the two Super Bowl championships that were engineered based upon his coaching, a good draft, the work of his assistants and the efforts of the players and then absolve him of responsibility when those same factors fail consistently for several years.
Well, one would think you would have learned something in that time, but apparently not.
You bet your ass a head coach gets major credit for a championship because championships in the NFL are very rare and coaches that have earned two or more are even more rare. In the history of the NFL, there are only 25 HC that have earned multiple championships. Let that sink in: of all the men who have been HC's in the history of the NFL only 25 have won multiple championships. In the Super Bowl era, there are only 13. Those 13 have collectively won over half the Super Bowls.
We have one of those head coaches. You don't discard someone like that as lightly as you characters seem to want to.
I have lived through the ups and downs of this team for almost 40 years. Accountable means that if you are in charge you get the credit and the blame for the success and failures of the team. By that measure he should be fired.
What irks the hell out of me is the way many fans have segregated Coughlin from the rest of the management and players in terms of allocating blame. Why give him credit for the two Super Bowl championships that were engineered based upon his coaching, a good draft, the work of his assistants and the efforts of the players and then absolve him of responsibility when those same factors fail consistently for several years.
Well, one would think you would have learned something in that time, but apparently not.
You bet your ass a head coach gets major credit for a championship because championships in the NFL are very rare and coaches that have earned two or more are even more rare. In the history of the NFL, there are only 25 HC that have earned multiple championships. Let that sink in: of all the men who have been HC's in the history of the NFL only 25 have won multiple championships. In the Super Bowl era, there are only 13. Those 13 have collectively won over half the Super Bowls.
We have one of those head coaches. You don't discard someone like that as lightly as you characters seem to want to.
How many of those head coaches also don't make the playoffs regularly, and have had two consecutive losing seasons?
- momentum on offense now that beckham is being fully utilized
- talent deficiencies on lines major reason for continued poor seasons
- who out there can do a significantly better job?
- team fighting hard in meaningless games
- execution a big part of losses
- injuries have killed team this year
- he's won two super bowls so knows how to coach
case for coughlin leaving
- the embrassment in seattle which was a read option defense FAIL
- Jax collapse
- continued communication breakdowns in secondary
- not having right personnel on field at end of dallas home game (things happened too quickly)
- his prior focus on discipline/minimizing mistakes is now a weakness (see all of the really preventable dumb INTs, fumbles, penalties which well-coached teams should not make)- it's not just one player but a systemic issue
- year after year his teams lead the league in injuries
- if not for victor cruz's magic 99 yard play or miles austin losing the ball in the lights, this may have been sixth straight season without a playoff birth.
- coughlin involved in personnel decisions too so he is not completely scott free when it comes to talent issues
- playing young talents like moore and kennard too late in the season; sticking with ineffective veterans who are physically done but who know the assignments
- team could use a fresh voice and perspective to bring back culture of winning
I'd prefer to move on, but if he's back and it appears that is the case, I think a new defensive coordinator and special teams coordinator are needed.
I have lived through the ups and downs of this team for almost 40 years. Accountable means that if you are in charge you get the credit and the blame for the success and failures of the team. By that measure he should be fired.
What irks the hell out of me is the way many fans have segregated Coughlin from the rest of the management and players in terms of allocating blame. Why give him credit for the two Super Bowl championships that were engineered based upon his coaching, a good draft, the work of his assistants and the efforts of the players and then absolve him of responsibility when those same factors fail consistently for several years.
Well, one would think you would have learned something in that time, but apparently not.
You bet your ass a head coach gets major credit for a championship because championships in the NFL are very rare and coaches that have earned two or more are even more rare. In the history of the NFL, there are only 25 HC that have earned multiple championships. Let that sink in: of all the men who have been HC's in the history of the NFL only 25 have won multiple championships. In the Super Bowl era, there are only 13. Those 13 have collectively won over half the Super Bowls.
We have one of those head coaches. You don't discard someone like that as lightly as you characters seem to want to.
If he wasn't getting credit for his two SB wins he would have been gone already. But you missed my point. I believe in the same concept of team as the coach. He is part of a management team, much of which he put together. So when things go south he should get a share of the blame and you don't simply sacrifice assistants and absolve the coach. Who hired Gilbride and Quinn and Fewell? Who picks the final roster and decides who plays and I what situations? If he has no responsibility for these areas then why is he the Head Coach?
I wonder if they want TC to take a job like Parcells finished with in Miami. Put him in change of the rebuild by him making director of football. Bring his discipline and knowledge to all the facets of the team. Coaching hires, the draft, FA acquisitions etc.
I wonder if they want TC to take a job like Parcells finished with in Miami. Put him in change of the rebuild by him making director of football. Bring his discipline and knowledge to all the facets of the team. Coaching hires, the draft, FA acquisitions etc.
That's the only way to "fire" him, and keep McAdoo. But Reese isn't getting fired. It's not a bad idea at all, but you would have to:
Fire Reese & Ross
Hire a 68 year old into a very high level Ops position.
Promote McAdoo
Is this happening in 2015? I can't see it. Like I said, I really don't think Reese is getting fired. Reese, TC, BM are all safe.
These types of decisions require a lot of analysis. The decision should be based on an evaluation of Coach Coughlin's job performance, and the conditions he finds himself in should be taken into consideration. Without that kind of thoughtful reflection we'd have a situation like the one in Washington.
We want the guy who is best for the job, the guy we best believe is going to give us a chance to win. Does TC appear to have answers for righting this ship? Does someone else bring better solutions?
What happened this year is that plans were made to improve the offense. These plans included the change in offensive systems and key upgrades at certain positions. Key personnel (Wilson, Cruz, Schwartz, Jennings, Jernigan) were injured and unable to perform for much or all of the year. Injuries along the offensive line gave almost no time for the same five guys to work together in their respective positions. In spite of this the offense had only a few games where they looked totally inept.
Defensively a decision was made to emphasize the secondary, to make it the strength of the defense. Key players were lost there as well (Hill, Thurmond, Amukamara, with DRC playing injured for most of the year). Additionally, a key player in the middle of the defense was lost (Beason).
In suppose of these circumstances the Giants prayed competitively in 9 of 13 games. They were dominant in a couple of them and are dominated in about four games.
You can say these are excuses that every coach could make, but I disagree. Some teams haven't been competitive at all. Others were competitive but not good enough considering the makeup and health of their team. Finally, none or those other guys on the hot seat have won two title in the past seven years.
Makes sense and falls in line with what many on this board believe.
Like what? Two Superbowl wins in the last 10 years?
Dope.
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keep doing what youre doing and youll keep getting what youre getting...
Like what? Two Superbowl wins in the last 10 years?
Dope.
With that logic the Giants should bring back LT to give a boost to the defense.
I don't think he's done a great job this year, but he's not the problem either and we've had enough success under him I don't mind giving him another shot to go out on a high note. I'm just sick of the endless year-to-year evaluation.
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In comment 12025928 natefit said:
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keep doing what youre doing and youll keep getting what youre getting...
Like what? Two Superbowl wins in the last 10 years?
Dope.
With that logic the Giants should bring back LT to give a boost to the defense.
That's a terrible analogy...
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In comment 12025928 natefit said:
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keep doing what youre doing and youll keep getting what youre getting...
Like what? Two Superbowl wins in the last 10 years?
Dope.
With that logic the Giants should bring back LT to give a boost to the defense.
Dude....LT? You did not make your point.
There are signs McAdoo's offense can be effective.
I would not think it a crazy idea if they went in another direction. In fact, if I had to be my life - I'd bet TC was gone. But, don't think it is the end of the world if he stays.
Think the DC issue is the real discussion.
And the fact that the usual mouthbreathers want TC gone without having the first clue who could possibly replace him - and the brand new OC who has pretty much been a success despite injury and an horrific offensive line at times - only serves to solidify his return.
2013 season band-aid fix was a new offensive coordinator.
2014 season band-aid fix will be a new defensive coordinator.
It might help, could help. But band-aid fixes rarely do.
We just need to rebuild the O-Line, hire a new DC and find a couple new playmakers on defense
For starters...
I suspect the Giants will crush Washington this weekend. That franchise is doing it's yearly collapse.
2013 season band-aid fix was a new offensive coordinator.
2014 season band-aid fix will be a new defensive coordinator.
It might help, could help. But band-aid fixes rarely do.
You mean like 2007 new defensive coordinator + new offensive coordinator. Or 2011 new defensive coordinator?
What changes are needed and can TC make them? Need to stay healthy (he has shown willingness to modify practice habits), need to change defensive coordinator and scheme (he has shown willingness to do it with offense), need to play rookies quicker (mixed results here, but has changed a little), need to improve special teams (see defensive coordinator comments).
Does he have respect of players? Yes.
Has the team stuck together? (Yes).
Keeping him makes sense if he will continue to adapt. Hiring a DC with Head Coach potential, and an ST with head coach potential would give the Giants three possible choices to succeed TC in the next three years.
Personally, I would LOVE to see Rex at DC. He could learn some things from TC regarding how to run the whole team and would be a great HC with the proper seasoning.
My biggest concern is that TC has not been successful since the new collective bargaining agreement changed the way that you have to practice. I think he needs to improve on that as he has not been able to develop the necessary physicality without the two a days and the hitting.
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I can't see our organization really keen on having Eli learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. Fewell needs to be shown the door. Quinn needed to be gone yesterday. Major changes I'd like to see after this, is a hard look at our strength and conditioning program. Also, I'd like to see Reese being more involved with the draft, and Ross much less involved.
No, it doesn't. McAdoo is doing on-the-job training with the master. The McAdoo's of the NFL are a dime a dozen. Coaches with two Lombardi's on the shelf are very rare.
If McAdoo's are a dime a dozen, then where are they, and why does Coughlin have a poor track record of hiring coordinators? On-the-job training with the master? Take a look at the Coughlin coaching tree and compare it to all the coaches Parcells and Walsh actually did groom.
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But it's going to be a band-aid fix again.
2013 season band-aid fix was a new offensive coordinator.
2014 season band-aid fix will be a new defensive coordinator.
It might help, could help. But band-aid fixes rarely do.
You mean like 2007 new defensive coordinator + new offensive coordinator. Or 2011 new defensive coordinator?
Gilbride took over as offensive coordinator midway in 2006 and Fewell was hired in 2010. And Gilbride was a different voice, and a different caller but not a different offense.
Spags, yes was hired before the 2007 season.
Defense? Well that is a whole other story.
Personally, I would be happy if TC stays. I think he has the best shot and building this back up quickly.
And the fact that the usual mouthbreathers want TC gone without having the first clue who could possibly replace him - and the brand new OC who has pretty much been a success despite injury and an horrific offensive line at times - only serves to solidify his return.
Wouldn't be so sure. Fewells tc guy..plus continuity is what they aim for
but what about Reese?
The Giants keep missing the playoffs in what isn't some world-beater division. Even in 2011, they squeaked in due to the length of JPP's arms. TC should stay IMO, but it's not crazy to maintain otherwise.
Kind of like not dumping the baby out with the bath water I guess...
It's a philosophy and decision that I can respect....I just pray it's the right one.
Is that point next year, when they'll have likely missed the playoffs six out of seven years and won't be any closer to real rebuild than they were a couple years ago?
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TC and McAdoo stay and they bring in a solid DC resurrecting the defense. Id be completely fine with that scenario.
And the fact that the usual mouthbreathers want TC gone without having the first clue who could possibly replace him - and the brand new OC who has pretty much been a success despite injury and an horrific offensive line at times - only serves to solidify his return.
Wouldn't be so sure. Fewells tc guy..plus continuity is what they aim for
Someone has to be sacrificed for two debacles in a row. Fewell is the lamb.
You could call it a band aid, but the band aid worked before. Fewell in for Sheridan. Even Gilbride in for Huff...
Coughlin just needs to wack his staff every few years and away we go!
And aside from that meaningless game in week 17 a couple years ago, he never crushes them like they so often do the Giants. I half want to hire Andy Reid to fix that alone (joking...). They've really had his number and I never feel good about playing them.
Guy's team hasn't beaten a good team since 2012.
Just delaying the inevitable for the time being (at the expense of the franchise QBs twilight years).
Excuse me for not popping the fucking champagne on this one.
This is false. We had the same OC for both Super Bowls. Only the DC's were different. TC has a poor track record at picking coordinators, and he sticks with them longer than he should.
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In comment 12025954 David in LA said:
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I can't see our organization really keen on having Eli learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. Fewell needs to be shown the door. Quinn needed to be gone yesterday. Major changes I'd like to see after this, is a hard look at our strength and conditioning program. Also, I'd like to see Reese being more involved with the draft, and Ross much less involved.
No, it doesn't. McAdoo is doing on-the-job training with the master. The McAdoo's of the NFL are a dime a dozen. Coaches with two Lombardi's on the shelf are very rare.
If McAdoo's are a dime a dozen, then where are they, and why does Coughlin have a poor track record of hiring coordinators? On-the-job training with the master? Take a look at the Coughlin coaching tree and compare it to all the coaches Parcells and Walsh actually did groom.
Yep. Instead of letting Coughlin go last year, which many said he should've been, the Giants hired an OC, which bought Coughlin this year and apparently next year...
I would give him the longer deal and see out the Eli era with him as the head coach. Going year to year doesn't seem the wisest move.
Link - ( New Window )
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we've seen Coughlin win super bowls with so many different coordinators...
This is false. We had the same OC for both Super Bowls. Only the DC's were different. TC has a poor track record at picking coordinators, and he sticks with them longer than he should.
Awful. And no he doesn't. Missing the playoffs 5 out of 6 years doesn't deserve a 4-5 year extension. It's a "What have you done for me lately?" league.
The Giants are better this year than they were in 2013. This is indisputable. In 2013 they finished where they did because they played a slew of backup quarterbacks...a couple of whom were completely incompetent. The record won't show it but they played significantly better football this year.
- The organization recognizes that despite the turnover to a new system with McAdoo and 20 guys on IR, Coughlin has kept the team competitive. In pretty much every game, they were holding their own against teams with better personnel until they simply ran out of bullets and would lose late.
- The fact that the past 2 draft classes have shown growth and are responding to the coaching staff rather than going the other way has also helped him.
- I think the organization also recognizes that this team was essentially in a rebuild this year, and as myself and others on BBI mentioned, they waited a year too late to officially try to build the team back up, with the ill fated goal to host the Super Bowl last year. Provided that TC had the team competitive, in the face of all the injuries, showed that he can still coach.
- As said above, I think the Giants are big on McAdoo. It is quite possible that as he learns on the job, the Giants might well be looking to groom him as the eventual replacement. By keeping TC around, the Giants will have another year to validate what they think about McAdoo and set up for a succession to a young coach (something the Giants need) is better for long term.
I had noted in my post yesterday, though this was a losing season, this wasn't a lost season. If the Giants were getting blown out left and right with this younger roster, I think that would have been the death knell for TC. But that they were competitive against better rosters, was enough to show that TC still has control of the team. Ultimately, he will likely need to replace Fewell.
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The Giants were a bad team last year, and they will probably finish even worse this season. The Giants can't afford to waste the few years Eli has left on a guy who isn't producing results anymore.
The Giants are better this year than they were in 2013. This is indisputable. In 2013 they finished where they did because they played a slew of backup quarterbacks...a couple of whom were completely incompetent. The record won't show it but they played significantly better football this year.
Well, if this is significantly better football, we really have to be the worst franchise in the NFL...
And I don't think it has anything to with us beating this terrible Titans team.
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the organization is not going to want Eli to learn a 3rd offense in 3 years. There needs to be a bit of continuity.
Eli was in Gillbride's offense for about a decade. I doubt he had much trouble picking up the offense in 2013.
You don't think there's a bit of an adjustment period learning an entirely new scheme? Our offense didn't exactly come out of the gates firing this year. I'm assuming you mean 2014, not 2013.
And I don't think it has anything to with us beating this terrible Titans team.
Injuries are a part of the game. You make do with what you have...we didn't and some fault wasn't Coughlin's (like Charles Brown, James Brewer and Co. looking like parking cones out there), but some is his fault. As John Mara asked last year, "what took us so long to realize what he had in Jerrel Jernigan?"
Just as the players he cuts when they don't perform, Tom too is not immune to getting fired. Not having a winning season for three straight years and missing the playoffs six out of seven seasons is unacceptable.
If the decision is made to keep him, then keep him and do it right. Another season of "Coughlin is under the gun" is not the answer.
I think it boils down to a simple question: Do you want to fire Coughlin as punishment for these two seasons or because you don't think he can ever get the job done again?
If it's the former, I think that's a shitty way to run a business. If it's the latter I think that's a fair reason, but the Giants don't seem to feel that way. And if they don't, they should really commit. View this as a 3 or 4 year project that is building towards something as opposed to a year to year thing where we may change horses in midstream after next season if we don't make the playoffs.
I think this whole thing aligns with Eli's career arc. If Eli's career figures to last another 4 years or so, shape the project that way. We've already seen the positives on the offensive side start to show.
Firing Coughlin might feel good, but that doesn't make it the productive move.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
And even though I think Fewell should go, we won a Super Bowl with him.
Did anyone really think we'd be good this year? I don't think we'd severely underperformed relative to expectations outside of last year.
Depends. If we have a comparable roster to last year, then I blame the talent.
It isn't about absolving Coughlin from blame. Coughlin absolutely owns some of the blame for these two poor seasons. No rational person would argue otherwise.
But the point isn't to mete out punishment for a job poorly done. The point is to ask whether he can do a better job going forward.
This is true. I don't think he's done a good job this year at all.
I was on the fence about it, but leaned towards keeping him.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
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If next year ends up going actually like this year, who would you guys blame them? The talent again? McAdoo? The new DC/Fewell?
It isn't about absolving Coughlin from blame. Coughlin absolutely owns some of the blame for these two poor seasons. No rational person would argue otherwise.
But the point isn't to mete out punishment for a job poorly done. The point is to ask whether he can do a better job going forward.
It's been three poor seasons.
[quote] this tells you a few things
Coughlin has kept the team competitive. In pretty much every game, they were holding their own against teams with better personnel until they simply ran out of bullets and would lose late.
Huh??? (I try to respect everyone's opinions but...)
Lost by 21 in Detroit; They got embarrassed in Philly 27-0; I do recall that Indy was up at one point 40-7? Lost by 21 against Seattle. lost at home to Cards with a guy that hadn't played QB in 5 years. Swept by the Cowboys....
Oh and they lost 7 in a row to obliterate the season.
If that's being competitive we've kind of loosely defined the term, No?
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If next year ends up going actually like this year, who would you guys blame them? The talent again? McAdoo? The new DC/Fewell?
It isn't about absolving Coughlin from blame. Coughlin absolutely owns some of the blame for these two poor seasons. No rational person would argue otherwise.
But the point isn't to mete out punishment for a job poorly done. The point is to ask whether he can do a better job going forward.
Alright and what makes you think that he can? He's been here since 2004 and since then, only two times has he won playoff games. The rest of those years have been clunkers.
Giants lost to shitty teams during their Super Bowl years as well. Remember the Todd Collins game against Washington in '07? Vince Young at home in 2011? Why harp on the Jacksonville game? Had they won that game by seven would it change your opinion of this team in any major way?
Count me among those who think TC's job was never really in any jeopardy. The decision to rebuild was made after last season (one too late) and TC was kept on board for the cycle.
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If next year ends up going actually like this year, who would you guys blame them? The talent again? McAdoo? The new DC/Fewell?
Depends. If we have a comparable roster to last year, then I blame the talent.
I'm not a huge fan of Reese either, but I love how people are screaming for his head and not Coughlin's. Coughlin didn't win a playoff game until Reese became GM.
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...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
I don't know about that. We've played musical chairs with the coordinators...and yet one thing remains constant.
But it also means it's true they have McAdoo as a coach in waiting.
Disappointing is an understatement
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...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
The team has abysmal talent and there is no reason to "let" him choose his head coach. That is happy horseshit. Reese has a hall of fame coach now. If he can't get the talent together, that is on him. That had better fix the talent evaluation process if anything.
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Giants lost to shitty teams during their Super Bowl years as well. Remember the Todd Collins game against Washington in '07? Vince Young at home in 2011? Why harp on the Jacksonville game? Had they won that game by seven would it change your opinion of this team in any major way?
Count me among those who think TC's job was never really in any jeopardy. The decision to rebuild was made after last season (one too late) and TC was kept on board for the cycle.
Your argument would hold more weight if we've actually showed improvement. Somehow we have managed to regress and are worse than last year.
I just hope TQ and PF are replaced.
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In comment 12026100 Anakim said:
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If next year ends up going actually like this year, who would you guys blame them? The talent again? McAdoo? The new DC/Fewell?
Depends. If we have a comparable roster to last year, then I blame the talent.
I'm not a huge fan of Reese either, but I love how people are screaming for his head and not Coughlin's. Coughlin didn't win a playoff game until Reese became GM.
I think that's a bit unfair. That 2007 draft was a very good one, but the team had matured a bunch too after losing in the playoffs in 2005 and 2006. And I'd go to say that Acorsi's drafts had more to do with winning playoff games than Reese's did.
Is that really 'musical chairs'?
Fewell had a better run than people will remember.
And count me as one that would like to wait a bit before proclaiming the past two drafts as "good." Too many questionmarks, apart from Beckham.
Anakim...you measure clunker of a season by whether there was a playoff victory in that year? 2005 (11-5), 2008 (12-4), 2010 (10-6), and 2012 (9-7) are clunkers to you? Even if they are, what makes you think another coach wins those games?
Is that really 'musical chairs'?
Fewell had a better run than people will remember.
Almost a new coordinator every year? Yeah, I would say it is
Anakim...you measure clunker of a season by whether there was a playoff victory in that year? 2005 (11-5), 2008 (12-4), 2010 (10-6), and 2012 (9-7) are clunkers to you? Even if they are, what makes you think another coach wins those games?
Sandy is no excuse why we went into Atlanta with the division in our grasps and get shutout out. To then only follow it up with another pathetic showing in Baltimore.
It was a failure.
Consistently what? This Giants team hasn't been consistently ANYthing his entire term here. Or, if we're being honest, they consistently don't make the playoffs.
Sweet baby Jesus, do I have to detail the house of horrors that was Ernie Accorsi's draft record before Reese took over the draft in 2003? Do you really not remember what the 1998-2002 drafts were like?
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We've had 5 coordinators in eight years and one of those left for a promotion.
Is that really 'musical chairs'?
Fewell had a better run than people will remember.
Almost a new coordinator every year? Yeah, I would say it is
Closer to one every other year than one every year.
And Spags left for a promotion. Only one was a total unmitigated disaster.
Anakim...you measure clunker of a season by whether there was a playoff victory in that year? 2005 (11-5), 2008 (12-4), 2010 (10-6), and 2012 (9-7) are clunkers to you? Even if they are, what makes you think another coach wins those games?
Simply put, yes. You play to win playoff games. 11-5, 12-4, etc. don't mean shit unless you actually win in the playoffs.
I was hoping for a coaching change, but I'd be OK with Coughlin returning so long as we get some changes to the position coaches. I see no reason for us to have dumped the RB and TE coaches last year while keeping the OL coach. Quinn has to go. Fewell should go too, although I'm reluctant based on Coughlin's prior experience selecting DCs. I think it's time Herrmann goes as well. It could easily be we haven't been getting these guys enough talent, but you can't just assume it's all on the players. We haven't developed a single OL or LB in forever, time to get some new blood over there.
I hope they realize that Quinn and Fewell must go and not let injuries be an excuse to keep either or both of them.
They need to hire a young innovative DC that will use the talent he has.
And if they're serious or speculation on our (BBI) part that they want to keep McAdoo, then get his input for a DC. Someone he's be able to work with.
We were banking on JPP going back to his 2011 level, Damontre Moore replacing Tuck's production,and Eli rebounding in order for us to be competitive this year.
Only one out of the 3 above things happened this year.
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And I'd go to say that Acorsi's drafts had more to do with winning playoff games than Reese's did.
Sweet baby Jesus, do I have to detail the house of horrors that was Ernie Accorsi's draft record before Reese took over the draft in 2003? Do you really not remember what the 1998-2002 drafts were like?
Actually, I didn't realize that Reese was doing the drafting starting in 2003......I thought he only took over in 2007.
However, I wasn't talking about 1998-2002. I was more of how the 2007 team was built....which I thought was Acorsi.
So then what was Acorsi...only GM in title? lol........
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In comment 12026097 SB said:
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...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
The team has abysmal talent and there is no reason to "let" him choose his head coach. That is happy horseshit. Reese has a hall of fame coach now. If he can't get the talent together, that is on him. That had better fix the talent evaluation process if anything.
A HOF coach thats teams have missed the playoffs six out of seven seasons while he has an elite QB in his prime. A HOF coach that is known more for his late season collapses than his coaching tree.
If conservative offense, defense, and STs are what you cant stand, that has to be on Coughlin. But if it's inconsistent play with grounded fundamentals at work, then i think the personell and the coordinators need to be seriously evaluated.
Fewell has botched so many game plans it's ridiculous to me... particularly this season. The Eagles game was the real beginning of his end in my mind. The Giants defense clearly was not prepared, and played like they knew they had the wrong strategy the entire game. ive seen enough out of fewell to know he's not our best coordinator and if we can get an upgrade there, id welcome it.
They will probably give TC a 2-3 year extension, but not expecting that he will actually coach the whole deal.
I believe they will look to jettison Fewell.
They are in a tough place.. They simply cannot fire TC as it would be a PR nightmare. He will definitely be a Hall of Fame candidate..
I still feel they need to pull the trigger and move on..
But Reese's eye for talent has?
nice strawman.
[quote] this tells you a few things
Coughlin has kept the team competitive. In pretty much every game, they were holding their own against teams with better personnel until they simply ran out of bullets and would lose late.
Huh??? (I try to respect everyone's opinions but...)
Lost by 21 in Detroit; They got embarrassed in Philly 27-0; I do recall that Indy was up at one point 40-7? Lost by 21 against Seattle. lost at home to Cards with a guy that hadn't played QB in 5 years. Swept by the Cowboys....
Oh and they lost 7 in a row to obliterate the season.
If that's being competitive we've kind of loosely defined the term, No?
Kinard,
I think the Giants have been evaluating the body of work throughout the season and have the Giants shown improvement. As I said, I think the organization (though they won't admit it), felt this was a rebuilding year. Why no Super Bowl countdown clock this season? Because it wasn't at Metlife?
And the early part of the season, I think the team understood there would be growing pains, and it showed in the Detroit and Philly games.
However, against teams that I think we all can agree are better than the Giants, look at the halftime scores:
- @ Dallas- tied 14-14
- vs. Colts- losing 16-3
- @ Seattle- winning 17-14
- vs. 49ers- losing 9-7
- vs Dallas- winning 21-10
The Colts game was still in shouting distance, but not great, otherwise, they were right there with better teams, and then they would run out of gas by the end of the game. That's what happens when you have a team with 20 guys on IR. I think the Giants front office looked at this, and looked at the roster, and felt that the problem here is not coaching. Ultimately, what was going to make or break TC this year was if the Giants showed improvement as the season went along, has he developed the young players and has he had his team ready to play. From what we saw, he had a team that can put up a fight for while but eventually the talent gap is too much to overcome.
The Titans game was big from the standpoint, again in evaluating Coughlin, his team blew a 21-0 lead against a bad team. The Giants could well have packed it in and said screw it. But you go back and look and they are up 30-0. This isn't a coach who has lost the team.
I have to admit, I get frustrated with TC at times, and I want to see results and think it might be time to replace him. The bottom line is that good coaches don't forget how to coach. Maybe their message gets lost, and that is a big key. But based on what we've seen, that's not happened. So I think that is why the Giants will keep him around again for another season.
Kinda a bad analogy. Flores coached 12 years, and didn't win 100 games. Did get the two SBs.
Conversely, TC is going on 20 years, has two SBs, coached up an expansion team. Much better resume. Longevity counts for a lot, too.
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He's not a lock. Tom Flores has two rings and he's not in Canton.
Kinda a bad analogy. Flores coached 12 years, and didn't win 100 games. Did get the two SBs.
Conversely, TC is going on 20 years, has two SBs, coached up an expansion team. Much better resume. Longevity counts for a lot, too.
And beat perhaps what was potentially the best team in NFL history.
No, the O-Line depth is nonexistent. That's on Reese. The defense being virtually last in the league? That's on Coughlin and Fewell.
If you don't judge head coaches by Super Bowl victories (in particular in this age where there have been very few multiple SB winning head coaches, i.e., 2), then what should I judge TC by? Granted, there are other attributes of a HC - getting to the SB is one - but I would argue that winning the SB should carry the greatest weight. Winning two puts you on another echelon in today's NFL.
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In comment 12025966 B in ALB said:
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TC and McAdoo stay and they bring in a solid DC resurrecting the defense. Id be completely fine with that scenario.
And the fact that the usual mouthbreathers want TC gone without having the first clue who could possibly replace him - and the brand new OC who has pretty much been a success despite injury and an horrific offensive line at times - only serves to solidify his return.
Wouldn't be so sure. Fewells tc guy..plus continuity is what they aim for
Someone has to be sacrificed for two debacles in a row. Fewell is the lamb.
More of a goat, if you ask me.
It's a representation of his inability to hire good coordinators/assistants and groom them. The very coordinators and assistants that are working hands on with our players. Our assistant coaches spend more time with the players than Coughlin and if they are generally unknowns who are interchangeable it could be a reason why we've seen slow or lack of development from many of our young players over the years.
In addition to TC, the question is whether JR will be back as well. The speculation has always centered around TC, but JR put this squad together and unfortunately his attempt to build it up to a respectable level has failed.
If you don't judge head coaches by Super Bowl victories (in particular in this age where there have been very few multiple SB winning head coaches, i.e., 2), then what should I judge TC by? Granted, there are other attributes of a HC - getting to the SB is one - but I would argue that winning the SB should carry the greatest weight. Winning two puts you on another echelon in today's NFL.
You could make the case coaching today is more difficult, with 30-40% of your roster potentially turned over each year.
Anyway.....it's pretty much a given too that Al Davis was running those shows.....Flores...I'm not calling him a figure head, but..............there's reason why he's not in the HOF.
BS Coughlin was ready to roll with Snee. The man retired in training camp. How in the hell does Coughlin not say hey the RG is an issue because I saw him over the holidays and he can't walk. Not developing young players is still an issue. The way vets are tenured in this regime still remains an issue. You now have pro bowlers coming here and confused around this coaching staff. Miscommunication between players and coaches, head coach and coordinators still an issue.
Then, I see people bitching about running the ball as a glaring coaching mistake when we had three key bad plays happen while we were passing the ball.
That line was atrocious.
It sucked to lose to jacksonville, but people acting as if we were the '85 Bears losing to a HS team are way off base.
By your standard 2007 and 2011 wouldn't have happened, because you would have fired Coughlin long before then.
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Simply put, yes. You play to win playoff games. 11-5, 12-4, etc. don't mean shit unless you actually win in the playoffs.
By your standard 2007 and 2011 wouldn't have happened, because you would have fired Coughlin long before then.
No, I give coaches a few years. 2011 wouldn't have happened because I wanted Coughlin gone after that Eagles debacle. Haha
In addition to TC, the question is whether JR will be back as well. The speculation has always centered around TC, but JR put this squad together and unfortunately his attempt to build it up to a respectable level has failed.
I think 2 Super Bowl wins has given TC and Reese the credibility with Mara and Tisch that they have the right guys to bring this organization. The Giants failure was to misjudge the collapse at the end of 2012 as a blip on the radar rather than a signal that the 2011 championship core team had passed. They tried to hold off a rebuild in 2013 to take a chance at the Super Bowl with one last hurrah and it blew up in their faces. Look at the moves the Giants made going into this season. They brought in a new/young offensive coordinator. They have moved on from some of their old guard (Snee, Tuck, Jacobs, etc). They changed their drafting approach to focus more on team first leaders rather than going for the boom/bust guys who failed here the past few years. As I said above, the Giants wouldn't admit it, but this was a rebuilding season. As the season winds down, I think they have some confidence in this offense now. Come next year, they will focus on the defense (hence I would expect Fewell to get the heave ho and they will bring in a new defensive coordinator). For a change, skill position players appear to be in place, go and focus on the offensive line and bring in a new coordinator on defense to work with the front office to bring in talent on defense, and things will look brighter in 2015.
I think you retain Coughlin, but make his retention conditional on letting Fewell and Quinn go.
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And I'd go to say that Acorsi's drafts had more to do with winning playoff games than Reese's did.
Sweet baby Jesus, do I have to detail the house of horrors that was Ernie Accorsi's draft record before Reese took over the draft in 2003? Do you really not remember what the 1998-2002 drafts were like?
+++++
GAH, three offensive systems.
qualify as HC?
This is a crucial point. You've gotta wonder if Coughlin would be in more danger if his coordinators were Gilbride and Fewell, and the front office knew it could start over completely.
Outcomes in 2012-14 have been very, very different than 2004-06, and Coughlin wasn't pushing 70 then, either.
Considering it was his first few years with the team and with a very young QB who needed stability, yes. But I honestly wanted to fire Coughlin during the 2007 season before we went on that run. Thank Ahmad Bradshaw for that run in Buffalo in the snow.
I'm not absolving Coughlin of blame, but he doesn't get all of it either. The roster was decaying in 2012, horrific in 2013, and slightly better than that in 2014.
Not just for this year but to ensure more shit years like this are not in the offering.
They did not respond to or handle adversity well with their respective units or in their positions of power.
We get it, the Giants have missed the playoffs 3 years running...everyone knows that. Giants MGMT wants to win. We know that too. Maybe they feel that Coughlin can right the ship rather than go out and sign an unknown while losing McAdoo in the process.
The constant age talk to me is annoying and pointless..Coughlin is not too old, that's all that matters.
Whether this off-season we should get rid of TC is a bit beside the point. The fact that he is able to keep removing coordinators that he chose and stay simply defies logic.
And for those saying, you don't make a change and force a change on Eli, well if we change coordinators, you will be saying the same thing regarding the defense and being in the first year of the new defense...again.
If TC stays and it does not work, I frankly blame Mara. He stupidly put a band-aid on a clear rebuilding year and a full change should have been made last year. And unfortunately only time will tell...and I have to, have to hope that I am wrong.
I get that the roster has been a work in progress, and injuries and bad drafting have left us an incomplete team. At the same time, we've had our franchise QB throughout that period, and we've only had more than 10 wins twice in the last 10 (and counting) seasons. If next season is also a wash, we've got very little of Eli's prime left, and we'll be right back where we are this year, talking about coordinators and interrupting continuity.
Continuity is good when things are going well; when the results are inconsistent, I'm not sure what continuity buys you.
If Reese nails this draft and comes away with 3-4 good players (hopefully one star), you potentially have 3 solid drafts in a row.
This offseason if going to be a VERY big one for Reese. I, for one, and willing to roll the dice with him and see what hes got.
Eli's a 33 year old mostly average QB (production wise) at this juncture on a terrible team that's missed the playoffs 5/6 and realistically isn't likely to make them next year either, as there's massive talent issues almost everywhere (defeat of the mighty Titans aside).
No offense to him or what he's previously accomplished, but his opinion really shouldn't mean much to this team's plans at this point, as he's not likely going to end up part of the solution here himself.
Shula, Noll, and Landry all failed. Even BB has failed so far.
Having said that, I wouldnt be too surprised if Fewell is retained if the defense finishes off the season strong.
Theory - Giants have already planned for the future - ( New Window )
Better talent will make all the coaches look better. Maybe except Fewell (I just don't like his overall scheme!)
If Reese nails this draft and comes away with 3-4 good players (hopefully one star), you potentially have 3 solid drafts in a row.
This offseason if going to be a VERY big one for Reese. I, for one, and willing to roll the dice with him and see what hes got.
That's because Mara asked him to get back involve with personal visits. Mara is also the same guy to asked him to step back from process after 2007 and allocate duties with Coughlin and he hired Ross. Mara knows what the deal is even if fans don't. Chris Mara was promoted two seasons ago. Reese talked about going back out on the road the last two years.
Because this
was not working
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Quinn looks a lot smarter.
Better talent will make all the coaches look better. Maybe except Fewell (I just don't like his overall scheme!)
Better talent will make any coaches look better. How about better coaches to make marginal talent look better?
Or better yet, coaches that do a good enough job such that not every position needs to have a 1st or 2nd round pick manning it, otherwise it's labeled 'ignored' or 'overlooked'? Or a coach that takes a player who is otherwise incomplete coming out of college, and works with them to correct their form and improve their production? Can we get some of those guys?
Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
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Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
???? Fewell is from Coughlin's Jacksonville staff and Quinn was hired by Coughlin. How in the hell can anyone claim "he got stuck" with them?
18th in 2006
7th in 2007
14th in 2008
23rd in 2009
31st in 2010
11th in 2011
11th in 2012
21st in 2013
14th in 2014
Mediocre to bad.
Proof is in the pudding... Have the Giants had a single good ST's season under Quinn? You cant possibly believe in all his years here he never had the right guys? Other than specialized players (PR/KR, LS, PK, & P) how many team sign/draft guys for their ST's talent? There are guys like Tyree who make a career out of STs, but generally its back ups and younger players... thats what ST coaches have to work with. He has no excuse
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In comment 12026387 Greg from LI said:
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Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
???? Fewell is from Coughlin's Jacksonville staff and Quinn was hired by Coughlin. How in the hell can anyone claim "he got stuck" with them?
Didnt say "he", I meant Giants, and us as fans, got stuck with those guys.
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In comment 12026431 GloryDayz said:
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In comment 12026387 Greg from LI said:
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Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
???? Fewell is from Coughlin's Jacksonville staff and Quinn was hired by Coughlin. How in the hell can anyone claim "he got stuck" with them?
Didnt say "he", I meant Giants, and us as fans, got stuck with those guys.
Oh because, it looks like you absolved Coughlin of those hires.
The Giants keep missing the playoffs in what isn't some world-beater division. Even in 2011, they squeaked in due to the length of JPP's arms. TC should stay IMO, but it's not crazy to maintain otherwise.
Sure it is. He is currently the most successful head coach in the entire NFL. There isn't a single head coach who has more SB trophies in the past 7 years. Firing the the guy who has won the most SB in the immediate past is ... well ... its nuts. That's like firing someone for being successful. I know. They've sucked for 2 years. And they are going to suck next year too. But there still isn't a single coach out there who has won more SB trophies more recently than Coughlin.
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In comment 12026440 Mason said:
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In comment 12026431 GloryDayz said:
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In comment 12026387 Greg from LI said:
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Quinn really is a clown, a robotic clown, who as established here, must have some terribly compromising pics of TC, and possibly Mara.
Seriously, the guy brings NOTHING to the team. ST's under him have ranged from terrible to average at best.
I think TC's misses with some coordinators in the past (Lewis, Sheridan, Hufnagel) got him in "the devil you know" kind of mentality, and got stuck with guys like Fewell & Quinn for way too long
???? Fewell is from Coughlin's Jacksonville staff and Quinn was hired by Coughlin. How in the hell can anyone claim "he got stuck" with them?
Didnt say "he", I meant Giants, and us as fans, got stuck with those guys.
Oh because, it looks like you absolved Coughlin of those hires.
Yeah I understand... should have clarified better, but thats not what I meant.
I lost faith in TC mid-way through 2011 season, and a couple of months later he GLADLY made me eat crow. I wont make the same mistake again. But there's little doubt Fewell & Quinn need to go. But unfortunately, with TC's track record I wont believe it till I see it.
Yes, he was the HC of two great, weird and improbable SB runs, but when they're surrounded by consistently whiffing on the playoffs, issues hiring staff, and doing so out of a mostly meh division (before this season) and with an alleged franchise QB never missing a game, in an era where making the playoffs is as easy as it ever has been, Vince Lombardi prime, he is clearly not.
Is that point next year, when they'll have likely missed the playoffs six out of seven years and won't be any closer to real rebuild than they were a couple years ago?
Dump Fewell, Quinn, Ross and Palmieri.Fire a couple of scouts.See what shakes out.Doesn't make sense to make a HC or QB change till after the 2015 season anyway, when their contracts are up.No definitive upgrades available, none cited, regardless of year long speculation.
Secondly- They are high on McAdoo… But they are high on Coughlin as well. He’s kept a team full of cast offs, street free agents and has beens playing hard… In spite of the continued issues on the O-Line, save for the SF game, Eli has shown that he is still capable of being a top level quarterback and has thrived in the new system, when the line has given him time. They didn’t think coming into the season that they were going to be able to make a run this year… It was a two year rebuild. A ridiculous amount of injuries only put a magnifying glass on all of the teams blemishes. Still though, this team could have easily been 8-5 right now had things fallen differently… ( AZ, SF, Dallas, Jax). In spite of the media hub bub, as I told you a month ago… TC is going nowhere.
However…. I also told you that TC blew a gasket with Fewell. Since then all of a sudden Fewell starts to dial up a bunch of pressure that we didn’t see all season? Shouldn’t have had to come to that… And don’t think shutting out a pop warner Texans team saves Fewell’s job. Watch a gimpy RG3 read option past JPP three times on Sunday….
Finally… Job #1 this offseason is O-Line. That doesn’t mean just a LG to plug in with Beatty, Ritchburg, Schwartz and Pugh. Injuries happen… And you have a $17 Million QB that can’t sneeze without his ribs killing him. NO one figured in August that Schwartz would play one game, Pugh would be playing with one arm and that the supporting cast would be from the land of misfit toys. The aforementioned will likely be the only returning on the other line...
According to my guy on the inside...
You can't just have any random collection of assholes, call them a football team and then blame the coach if they suck.
Lets get a coach to implement a system that he will be around to coach when the talent catches up.
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...though I don't feel that the coaching has been very good. Both in player development and play-calling. Defensive coaching has been terrible.
But still, I want to see what happens in the front office. If Reese stays and his staff is unchanged, I will have serious doubts that the current ownership cares much about this team so long as there are sellouts.
Why would Reese go and not Coughlin?
No way Reese goes. He will be given the opportunity to appoint a head coach before he exits fro his position.
Tom Coughlin will NOT see three GMs and five defensive coordinators in his tenure as some would have it.
Heh, what makes you think that if he's already proven his incompetence at putting together a roster that they are obliged to let him then fuck up an HC hire?????
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what a shitty post. I lean toward giving him another year (hopefully with a new DC and actual Oline), but there is a perfectly reasonable argument for bringing in some new blood after the past 2 trainwreck seasons. Yes, the Giants are again decimated by injuries and with JAGS all over the field, but TC has been downright bad in games this and last year (re-watch the Colts games specifically...he looked lost).
The Giants keep missing the playoffs in what isn't some world-beater division. Even in 2011, they squeaked in due to the length of JPP's arms. TC should stay IMO, but it's not crazy to maintain otherwise.
Sure it is. He is currently the most successful head coach in the entire NFL. There isn't a single head coach who has more SB trophies in the past 7 years. Firing the the guy who has won the most SB in the immediate past is ... well ... its nuts. That's like firing someone for being successful. I know. They've sucked for 2 years. And they are going to suck next year too. But there still isn't a single coach out there who has won more SB trophies more recently than Coughlin.
You're a piece of work. Say he's he most successful but cherry pick what time period to support your argument ignoring the guy in NE who has more ring and always has a competitive team, no matter the roster or injuries.
Lets get a coach to implement a system that he will be around to coach when the talent catches up.
Maybe that's McAdoo? Who knows?
Spot on David. I'd give Ross the boot completely. McAdoo also needs to be given free reign.
You're a piece of work. Say he's he most successful but cherry pick what time period to support your argument ignoring the guy in NE who has more ring and always has a competitive team, no matter the roster or injuries.
What? You don't like FACTS? Name a single NFL coach who has won more more SB trophies more recently than the old man who can't remember how to coach named Coughlin?
You, my friend, are the piece of work. I am not cherry picking anything. I am stating a fucking fact. He is the most recent winner of the most SB trophies. Interpretation? Any argument that he is too old or the game has passed him by are idiotically stupid and rebutted by the very fact I quote. Nobody has been more successful more recently than Coughlin. That isn't cherry picking anything - but your fucking brain.
Exactly this. Shitcan fewell and quinn, fix that fucking o-line and shore up the D and we'll be right back in contention next year.
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You're a piece of work. Say he's he most successful but cherry pick what time period to support your argument ignoring the guy in NE who has more ring and always has a competitive team, no matter the roster or injuries.
What? You don't like FACTS? Name a single NFL coach who has won more more SB trophies more recently than the old man who can't remember how to coach named Coughlin?
You, my friend, are the piece of work. I am not cherry picking anything. I am stating a fucking fact. He is the most recent winner of the most SB trophies. Interpretation? Any argument that he is too old or the game has passed him by are idiotically stupid and rebutted by the very fact I quote. Nobody has been more successful more recently than Coughlin. That isn't cherry picking anything - but your fucking brain.
Fact is Belichick is a more successful coach. More rings, more conference championships, more division crowns, and a better winning percentage, First ballot hall of fame coach and the most successful active coach. Those are the facts.
Are you really that dense? Show me where I said anywhere that Coughlin was a better coach than Belichick. What I said is that Coughlin has won more SB more recently than any other coach in football.
I didn't say who was the greatest ever.
I didn't say who had the most rings.
I didn't say who is the most remote winner of multiple super bowls.
Nope. I said who is the most RECENT winner of multiple super bowls. And his name happens to be TOM COUGHLIN. I know that doesn't fit your warped scenario or mindset - but sorry about that - it's a FACT you are simply going to have to deal with.
betting on an historically unprecedented event is not generally considered wise
doesn't mean it couldn't happen; it's just history says Coughlin will never win another SB
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Fact is Belichick is a more successful coach. More rings, more conference championships, more division crowns, and a better winning percentage, First ballot hall of fame coach and the most successful active coach. Those are the facts.
Are you really that dense? Show me where I said anywhere that Coughlin was a better coach than Belichick. What I said is that Coughlin has won more SB more recently than any other coach in football.
I didn't say who was the greatest ever.
I didn't say who had the most rings.
I didn't say who is the most remote winner of multiple super bowls.
Nope. I said who is the most RECENT winner of multiple super bowls. And his name happens to be TOM COUGHLIN. I know that doesn't fit your warped scenario or mindset - but sorry about that - it's a FACT you are simply going to have to deal with.
Is this not your quote?
Fully agree. Him and Fewell need to get smacked I despise them both.
Joe Gibbs had an outstanding record with the Redskins. 3 Super Bowls and multiple 12+ win seasons. In spite of that, by 2006 (at age 67) he clearly was no longer the right guy for the job.
IMV the answer is "yes", but it's a guarded yes and certainly not predicated on what are now 7 and 3 year old occurrences. I'm looking forward.
Is this not your quote?
"He is currently the most successful head coach in the entire NFL."
Ok. I'll reword the above quote so it is very clear.
I am not asking who is the greatest coach of all time.
I am not asking what coach has the most SB rings.
I am not asking who was the first coach to win multiple super bowls.
What I am asking is - who is the most recent coach to win multiple super bowls?
His name is Tom Coughin. That may not fit nicely within the agenda of many here on BBI. It's just really funny to hear supposed fans of a team whose coach is the one who has most recently won multiple championships try to find arguments about why he doesn't know what he's doing.
It's literally laughable. Fortunately it is very unlikely that those fans are going to get what they want. Precisely because it is so dumb.
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Is this not your quote?
"He is currently the most successful head coach in the entire NFL."
Ok. I'll reword the above quote so it is very clear.
I am not asking who is the greatest coach of all time.
I am not asking what coach has the most SB rings.
I am not asking who was the first coach to win multiple super bowls.
What I am asking is - who is the most recent coach to win multiple super bowls?
His name is Tom Coughin. That may not fit nicely within the agenda of many here on BBI. It's just really funny to hear supposed fans of a team whose coach is the one who has most recently won multiple championships try to find arguments about why he doesn't know what he's doing.
It's literally laughable. Fortunately it is very unlikely that those fans are going to get what they want. Precisely because it is so dumb.
You're not worth further time discussing this with. You only choose to frame the question in a way that ensures you get the desired answer to support your argument. While at the same time entirely ignoring everything that's relevant to the situation. Debating with your kind is pointless and a waste of energy.
Actually, the joke's on all of us who have been watching horrific football for the past three seasons. But hey, if Coughlin jocksniffers are happy, who am I to say otherwise.
Poor Eli is still dealing with the curse of Brett's hug. Christ.
I'm not trying to debate anything with you. I'm just pointing out a FACT you find uncomfortable. But, genius that you are, I'm sure you'll just ignore it.
The FACT is that the man can coach. He's proven that.
The FACT is that the talent he's been given to work with is some of the very worst in the entire league.
The FACT is that this year will be the second in a row when the team should get a high draft pick to help add some real value and IMPACT players like Beckham.
Add those FACTS up and what you have is a team that is getting some impact players for a Coach who has won more Super Bowls most recently than anyone else. As a Giants fan, I happen to like those FACTS.
I don't think Fewell was nearly as bad of a hire as people are making it out to be (I tend to think most here overestimate the average team's ability to make key stops, but that's another discussion). He should go after this year, though. He isn't very good.
If management is honest with the roster (which TC obviously deserves blame - it's annoying that some act like he has no say in personnel), they had to have known this year would be bad. Expecting this, it seems merely punitive to fire him unless there's someone better out there. I don't see an obvious upgrade available, but I'm not that close to the coordinators/college game to know, really, which leads me to not want to make a move.
I obviously see why some think he should be fired. And maybe he should. But I don't have a good reason other than being disappointed in our results the past few years.
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Injuries happen… And you have a $17 Million QB that can’t sneeze without his ribs killing him.
Poor Eli is still dealing with the curse of Brett's hug. Christ.
Worth it.
2, Coughlin is not VP GM HC of the Giants
Yes, firing a coach who's led the club to 2 losing seasons in a row and 1 playoff appearance in 6 years is too much of a gamble.
Hell yeah!! What more has to happen for guys to move on from TC ? He's is an slighty above average coach, who can definitely be replaced. I sick and tired of guys destroying everyone else, but sticking up for TC. I would take Mccarty over TC.
Yes, he was the HC of two great, weird and improbable SB runs, but when they're surrounded by consistently whiffing on the playoffs, issues hiring staff, and doing so out of a mostly meh division (before this season) and with an alleged franchise QB never missing a game, in an era where making the playoffs is as easy as it ever has been, Vince Lombardi prime, he is clearly not.
Yeah, Bellichick has 11 double digit victory seasons in a row. But Coughlin who has 3 no winning seasons in a row is the best coach in football. Just nuts.
It borders on the pathological.
I do think we need to shake up the assistant coaches though, a fair amount of the lack of player development rests on their shoulders.
The FACT is that the man can coach. He's proven that.
The FACT is that the talent he's been given to work with is some of the very worst in the entire league.
The FACT is that this year will be the second in a row when the team should get a high draft pick to help add some real value and IMPACT players like Beckham.
How the hell is your opinion on our talent level a fact?
We've got a 2 time SB MVP franchise QB. We've got a guy who's competing for ROY. There was certainly more than enough talent on this roster to beat the likes of Jacksonville, something which our own coach said would have been more likely 'if we had just taken a knee' for every play in the 2nd half.
People shit on our talent all the time - but it's just as easy to say the coaches are doing jack shit with the talent they've been given. Teams go 3-10 when they're starting the likes of Geno Smith or a rookie QB, not with an established veteran franchise QB at the helm.
The problem with this is that talent argument can go on forever. The team can go 5-11 again next year, and the debate will pick up right where we left off. It seems that Coughlin is simply not responsible for losses. When we win, he's a SB caliber coach though.
I believe that they need to bring JPP, and Rolle back and get another linebacker like Kennard. This would be a good start.
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Most of us would rather keep Tom Coughlin than roll the dice on David Shaw or Todd Bowles or Adam Gase or whoever else. Particularly when we're right smack in the middle of a rebuilding process with a 33-year-old quarterback. Coughlin's job has likely never been in jeopardy this season, so the joke is on the "Fire Coughlin" crowd here.
Yes, firing a coach who's led the club to 2 losing seasons in a row and 1 playoff appearance in 6 years is too much of a gamble.
If you're going back six years, you might as well go back 60. The 2009-2012 Giants were totally different teams, and overall I'd say there was a nice progression there until the wheels came off at the end of 2012. Eight wins in 2009, 10 in 2010, and SB title in 2011. TC has not underachieved with these last two teams. If anything he overachieved last year. He can still coach. TC returning next year is a predictable outcome, and always has been. He certainly hasn't been talking like a guy who's expecting to be fired.
Because the QB's the most important guy on the field these days. Those other teams weren't exactly rolling in talent otherwise either.
We beat up on a bunch of stiffs and managed a much better record than what we were worth this year, as evidenced by our record this year when there were far fewer slouches on the schedule.
The thing to consider, which nobody is going to like and I don't believe it to be the case - is that maybe Coughlin was just along for the ride with superior talent, and when that talent level declined that was that.
1. Fire his entire staff, except McAdoo. Fewell, Quinn, Flaherty, Nunn, Hermann are must-fires. No exceptions.
2. Concede offensive control and creativity to McAdoo. Fuck balance.
3. Revisit his strength & conditioning and medical services.
4. Allow management to hire a quality control analyst that Coughlin has no influence over. A former head coach that will analyze TC's gameplan week after week and offer advice on what he sees and how he would attack the Giants. Coughlin's ability to self-scout his team is maybe his worst quality.
I concede #4 is a bit outrageous, but we fucking get exposed every week with the same shit. Either they aren't seeing it in the film or people are scared to say shit.
TC had superior talent? No disrespect to those teams but you might want to look at those rosters again - top corners - no, safeties - no. LBs? not hardly - very good DE rotation - DTs - B - B+.
OL - mostly FAs who played well together. Whose going to the HOF from that line?
WR corps - could never get three guys together -
best TE was a head case, others played over their heads.
RBs - Bradshaw the lionhearted, Jacobs the mighty - not pro bowlers
Lot of lunch pail guys - and only certain HCs can wring championships out of a lunch pail. There is a reason why people don't make that along for the ride argument.
You know who votes the players to the Pro Bowl, right?
Similarly - that Seattle team that won last season was a bunch of late round draft picks and FAs who played well together.
If we need to assemble a collection of Pro Bowl caliber players with a HoFer or two, it might take a bit longer than 2015 to get back to competitive football....
And, Seattle is not the best comparison because they drafted extremely well, regardless of the round. they grabbed the players that fit what they wanted to do. same same for the FAs - Avril, Bennett - they were very good players when they left their former teams.
but yeah - I don't disagree that it's not about getting all HOF or pro bowlers. My disagreement is about the raw talent level.
Doug Vrabel had the best line - "We're not collecting talent - we're building a team" (not verbatim)
I do think we need to shake up the assistant coaches though, a fair amount of the lack of player development rests on their shoulders.
This doesn't even make any sense. He oversees every aspect of what you posted but the beginning sentence is a direct contradiction of your 2nd paragraph. TTH is right this is Joe Pa level stuff and there's no reasoning with that.
If TC stays - you bring in a sure thing for DC - everyone prepared to get their Rex Ryan man crush on?
the only mitigating factor is the offense really seems to be coming on strong with manning to beckham having some amazing potential.
They can easily just finish that move - promote McAdoo to HC, give him authority to revise his staff, and tell him he's got a couple of seasons to get it all working.
Ideally, he'd have more experience, but if this is just because the offense is showing some potential, there are ways to build on that other than retaining status quo.
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H
Results don't matter much around East Rutherford anyway, so what difference would it make?
If the decision is made to keep him, then keep him and do it right. Another season of "Coughlin is under the gun" is not the answer.
I think it boils down to a simple question: Do you want to fire Coughlin as punishment for these two seasons or because you don't think he can ever get the job done again?
If it's the former, I think that's a shitty way to run a business. If it's the latter I think that's a fair reason, but the Giants don't seem to feel that way. And if they don't, they should really commit. View this as a 3 or 4 year project that is building towards something as opposed to a year to year thing where we may change horses in midstream after next season if we don't make the playoffs.
I think this whole thing aligns with Eli's career arc. If Eli's career figures to last another 4 years or so, shape the project that way. We've already seen the positives on the offensive side start to show.
Firing Coughlin might feel good, but that doesn't make it the productive move.
Losing the next three games is probably the only way they might get rid of Fewell at this point.
They'll toss him (and maybe Quinn) to the wolves and pat Teflon Tom and Saint Reese on the heads, setting themselves up for yet another wasted nothing year under the guise of continuity.
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Coughlin's job has likely never been in jeopardy this season, so the joke is on the "Fire Coughlin" crowd here.
Actually, the joke's on all of us who have been watching horrific football for the past three seasons. But hey, if Coughlin jocksniffers are happy, who am I to say otherwise.
On this, we can 1000% agree. The more I think about this, this is a failure on Mara. The half way change was a failure on club management. Now that we did not improve, we are in no man's land. But giving TC the opening to change another coordinator is outright laughable. And I am not a Fewell fan at all. But TC chose him.
When BC took out ND in that famous game in 1993 at Notre Dame Stadium that cost the Irish the national championship, TC was the coach
He went 8-3-1 and 9-3 in 2 of his 3 seasons at BC and both of us know that you can't do much better than that up there since it is not a national power
Wellington started out as a spoiled kid who treated the Giants as his plaything but eventually became a good owner who let his football people run the show. John Mara is unfortunately a meddler. Let's hope he leans like Wellington did.
Reese
Ross
Fewell
Quinn
Gilbride Jr
O line coach
QB coach
1. Fire his entire staff, except McAdoo. Fewell, Quinn, Flaherty, Nunn, Hermann are must-fires. No exceptions.
2. Concede offensive control and creativity to McAdoo. Fuck balance.
3. Revisit his strength & conditioning and medical services.
4. Allow management to hire a quality control analyst that Coughlin has no influence over. A former head coach that will analyze TC's gameplan week after week and offer advice on what he sees and how he would attack the Giants. Coughlin's ability to self-scout his team is maybe his worst quality.
I concede #4 is a bit outrageous, but we fucking get exposed every week with the same shit. Either they aren't seeing it in the film or people are scared to say shit.
Outstanding post - #4 isn't without reason
Chip Kelly said before his first game against the Giants game he saw flaws in their blocking scheme. Which was insane but more insane nothing was changed, no adjustment. Kelly just kept running double A gap blitzes. What coach is in charge of indentifying issues and making adjustments. Fire that guy too.
Wellington started out as a spoiled kid who treated the Giants as his plaything but eventually became a good owner who let his football people run the show. John Mara is unfortunately a meddler. Let's hope he leans like Wellington did.
He became a "good" owner because Rozelle forced him to.
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still waiting for him to pull that red flag jout of his sock. Jesus can't coaches ever step aside gracefully?
Chip Kelly said before his first game against the Giants game he saw flaws in their blocking scheme. Which was insane but more insane nothing was changed, no adjustment. Kelly just kept running double A gap blitzes. What coach is in charge of indentifying issues and making adjustments. Fire that guy too.
Boley, Canty, Osi, Bernard, Phillips, Bradshaw, Hixon, Blackburn
2014: Tuck, Webster, Deihl, Snee, Baas, Nicks, Thomas, Rivers, Boothe
That is a sizable change of core players. Plus the loss of Wilson
Another good draft and a couple of FA and this team is there to compete with anyone in the NFC
They are also due for a season on positive health
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you just have to hope he gets wiser as he gets older
Wellington started out as a spoiled kid who treated the Giants as his plaything but eventually became a good owner who let his football people run the show. John Mara is unfortunately a meddler. Let's hope he leans like Wellington did.
no. eventually it got so bad, Rozelle stepped and gave George Young to the Giants, the condition being that Well had to butt out.
He became a "good" owner because Rozelle forced him to.
I was trying for a more positive spin
John is not as bad as Wellington, but he has some of the old man in him
1. Fire his entire staff, except McAdoo. Fewell, Quinn, Flaherty, Nunn, Hermann are must-fires. No exceptions.
2. Concede offensive control and creativity to McAdoo. Fuck balance.
3. Revisit his strength & conditioning and medical services.
4. Allow management to hire a quality control analyst that Coughlin has no influence over. A former head coach that will analyze TC's gameplan week after week and offer advice on what he sees and how he would attack the Giants. Coughlin's ability to self-scout his team is maybe his worst quality.
I concede #4 is a bit outrageous, but we fucking get exposed every week with the same shit. Either they aren't seeing it in the film or people are scared to say shit.
And this was ridiculous the first time you posted it. You're cutting the man's balls off.
Do you not understand that? Just fire him. Jeez.
I think it is an absolute joke that the coach who built a name preaching accountability ends up not being accountable at all.
It may be that the hiring of McAdoo was done without Coughlin's complete sign off, for example. It may be that Coughlin's duties behind the scenes with regards to personnel selection have been changed. It's impossible to know without being on the inside.
But "accountable" most certainly does not mean "fired". "Fired" means "fired", so if that's what you want to see at least stop being so passive with your language and take a stand.
Reese
Ross
Fewell
Quinn
Gilbride Jr
O line coach
QB coach
It may be that the hiring of McAdoo was done without Coughlin's complete sign off, for example. It may be that Coughlin's duties behind the scenes with regards to personnel selection have been changed. It's impossible to know without being on the inside.
But "accountable" most certainly does not mean "fired". "Fired" means "fired", so if that's what you want to see at least stop being so passive with your language and take a stand.
Accountable does not HAVE to mean fired. But accountable CAN mean fired.
But does that mean he should not be fired?
Does that cancel out his poor gameplans, poor in-game clock management/decision-making, consistent undisciplined/stupid play of all his players, poor coordinators/assistant coaches, etc?
We are in a tough situation where the team is playing hard for the coach, but it may still be time to move on.
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fire...
Reese
Ross
Fewell
Quinn
Gilbride Jr
O line coach
QB coach
Like your thinking.
I don't know why people think this is more respectful than just firing him outright.
"Tom, we like you, but you have no idea how to pick a staff, so fire all your people and you can stay."
1. Bowman wraps up Ginn and he doesn't return a punt for a TD in the fourth quarter.
2. Demps doesn't fumble a kickoff return giving the Cards an easy field goal without having to drive.
3. Jennings doesn't fumble away on the Cards 15 yd line.
4. Eli doesn't choose to force a ball to a well-covered receiver at the 2 yard line on fourth and goal - a play that wouldn't have even resulted in a score if it wasn't caught yet turned into an INT against the Niners, capping four unsuccessful goal to go snaps from the four yard line.
5. Eli doesn't throw high to a wide-open Parker at the three yard line leading to an INT and 45 yd return against Dallas at home.
6. Jennings doesn't try to pick up the loose ball in the end zone against Jacksonville, but falls on it giving up the safety but preventing a TD in a game the Giants lose by one point.
Change the outcomes of these six plays and the Giants likely have four additional wins, meaning they would be 8-4 right now, one game out of the division with a rematch against Philly waiting and fully in contention for a wild-card spot in the NFC. When one considers the 20 players on IR, to be just six plays away from being a wild-card contender means that the Giants are a lot closer than we might want to give them credit for. In fact, I think that TC could theoretically have been a candidate for coach of the year with these outcomes changed.
Which of these plays is the fault of the coaches, as opposed to the fault of the players? I submit that perhaps one, the first and goal from the four with the three fades in a row against the Niners. Yet Eli is the one who makes that call at the line of scrimmage, and Eli is the one who threw the balls, and the receivers are the ones who failed to make the plays.
The remainder of the plays are just bad outcomes by players who were in a position to make a play but couldn't get it done. The coaches put them in the right position, but the players didn't execute.
I think it's fair to consider these types of arguments when determining what should be done with TC's contract.
I hope he stays.
1. Bowman wraps up Ginn and he doesn't return a punt for a TD in the fourth quarter.
2. Demps doesn't fumble a kickoff return giving the Cards an easy field goal without having to drive.
3. Jennings doesn't fumble away on the Cards 15 yd line.
4. Eli doesn't choose to force a ball to a well-covered receiver at the 2 yard line on fourth and goal - a play that wouldn't have even resulted in a score if it wasn't caught yet turned into an INT against the Niners, capping four unsuccessful goal to go snaps from the four yard line.
5. Eli doesn't throw high to a wide-open Parker at the three yard line leading to an INT and 45 yd return against Dallas at home.
6. Jennings doesn't try to pick up the loose ball in the end zone against Jacksonville, but falls on it giving up the safety but preventing a TD in a game the Giants lose by one point.
Change the outcomes of these six plays and the Giants likely have four additional wins, meaning they would be 8-4 right now, one game out of the division with a rematch against Philly waiting and fully in contention for a wild-card spot in the NFC. When one considers the 20 players on IR, to be just six plays away from being a wild-card contender means that the Giants are a lot closer than we might want to give them credit for. In fact, I think that TC could theoretically have been a candidate for coach of the year with these outcomes changed.
Which of these plays is the fault of the coaches, as opposed to the fault of the players? I submit that perhaps one, the first and goal from the four with the three fades in a row against the Niners. Yet Eli is the one who makes that call at the line of scrimmage, and Eli is the one who threw the balls, and the receivers are the ones who failed to make the plays.
The remainder of the plays are just bad outcomes by players who were in a position to make a play but couldn't get it done. The coaches put them in the right position, but the players didn't execute.
I think it's fair to consider these types of arguments when determining what should be done with TC's contract.
I hope he stays.
Are you kidding me? You can do that with any losing team and have their season turned around. No coach would ever get fired if he could simply go into the owners officer with what ifs and could haves.
I can't believe how far gone some of you are.
What irks the hell out of me is the way many fans have segregated Coughlin from the rest of the management and players in terms of allocating blame. Why give him credit for the two Super Bowl championships that were engineered based upon his coaching, a good draft, the work of his assistants and the efforts of the players and then absolve him of responsibility when those same factors fail consistently for several years.
It may be that the hiring of McAdoo was done without Coughlin's complete sign off, for example. It may be that Coughlin's duties behind the scenes with regards to personnel selection have been changed. It's impossible to know without being on the inside.
But "accountable" most certainly does not mean "fired". "Fired" means "fired", so if that's what you want to see at least stop being so passive with your language and take a stand.
Accountable means you accept the consequences of your actions. What have been the consequences for TC, or for anyone in the organization other than a couple of of minor assistants last year (we all know Gilbride had been planning to quit for a year and did so of his own accord)?
1. Bowman wraps up Ginn and he doesn't return a punt for a TD in the fourth quarter.
2. Demps doesn't fumble a kickoff return giving the Cards an easy field goal without having to drive.
3. Jennings doesn't fumble away on the Cards 15 yd line.
4. Eli doesn't choose to force a ball to a well-covered receiver at the 2 yard line on fourth and goal - a play that wouldn't have even resulted in a score if it wasn't caught yet turned into an INT against the Niners, capping four unsuccessful goal to go snaps from the four yard line.
5. Eli doesn't throw high to a wide-open Parker at the three yard line leading to an INT and 45 yd return against Dallas at home.
6. Jennings doesn't try to pick up the loose ball in the end zone against Jacksonville, but falls on it giving up the safety but preventing a TD in a game the Giants lose by one point.
Change the outcomes of these six plays and the Giants likely have four additional wins, meaning they would be 8-4 right now, one game out of the division with a rematch against Philly waiting and fully in contention for a wild-card spot in the NFC. When one considers the 20 players on IR, to be just six plays away from being a wild-card contender means that the Giants are a lot closer than we might want to give them credit for. In fact, I think that TC could theoretically have been a candidate for coach of the year with these outcomes changed.
Which of these plays is the fault of the coaches, as opposed to the fault of the players? I submit that perhaps one, the first and goal from the four with the three fades in a row against the Niners. Yet Eli is the one who makes that call at the line of scrimmage, and Eli is the one who threw the balls, and the receivers are the ones who failed to make the plays.
The remainder of the plays are just bad outcomes by players who were in a position to make a play but couldn't get it done. The coaches put them in the right position, but the players didn't execute.
I think it's fair to consider these types of arguments when determining what should be done with TC's contract.
I hope he stays.
Imagine if the bomb on Hiroshima hadn't detonated. Truman would have had a lousy year.
1. Bowman wraps up Ginn and he doesn't return a punt for a TD in the fourth quarter.
2. Demps doesn't fumble a kickoff return giving the Cards an easy field goal without having to drive.
3. Jennings doesn't fumble away on the Cards 15 yd line.
4. Eli doesn't choose to force a ball to a well-covered receiver at the 2 yard line on fourth and goal - a play that wouldn't have even resulted in a score if it wasn't caught yet turned into an INT against the Niners, capping four unsuccessful goal to go snaps from the four yard line.
5. Eli doesn't throw high to a wide-open Parker at the three yard line leading to an INT and 45 yd return against Dallas at home.
6. Jennings doesn't try to pick up the loose ball in the end zone against Jacksonville, but falls on it giving up the safety but preventing a TD in a game the Giants lose by one point.
Change the outcomes of these six plays and the Giants likely have four additional wins, meaning they would be 8-4 right now, one game out of the division with a rematch against Philly waiting and fully in contention for a wild-card spot in the NFC. When one considers the 20 players on IR, to be just six plays away from being a wild-card contender means that the Giants are a lot closer than we might want to give them credit for. In fact, I think that TC could theoretically have been a candidate for coach of the year with these outcomes changed.
Which of these plays is the fault of the coaches, as opposed to the fault of the players? I submit that perhaps one, the first and goal from the four with the three fades in a row against the Niners. Yet Eli is the one who makes that call at the line of scrimmage, and Eli is the one who threw the balls, and the receivers are the ones who failed to make the plays.
The remainder of the plays are just bad outcomes by players who were in a position to make a play but couldn't get it done. The coaches put them in the right position, but the players didn't execute.
I think it's fair to consider these types of arguments when determining what should be done with TC's contract.
I hope he stays.
If my Aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.
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In comment 12026072 Matt in SGS said:
[quote] this tells you a few things
Coughlin has kept the team competitive. In pretty much every game, they were holding their own against teams with better personnel until they simply ran out of bullets and would lose late.
Huh??? (I try to respect everyone's opinions but...)
Lost by 21 in Detroit; They got embarrassed in Philly 27-0; I do recall that Indy was up at one point 40-7? Lost by 21 against Seattle. lost at home to Cards with a guy that hadn't played QB in 5 years. Swept by the Cowboys....
Oh and they lost 7 in a row to obliterate the season.
If that's being competitive we've kind of loosely defined the term, No?
Kinard,
I think the Giants have been evaluating the body of work throughout the season and have the Giants shown improvement. As I said, I think the organization (though they won't admit it), felt this was a rebuilding year. Why no Super Bowl countdown clock this season? Because it wasn't at Metlife?
And the early part of the season, I think the team understood there would be growing pains, and it showed in the Detroit and Philly games.
However, against teams that I think we all can agree are better than the Giants, look at the halftime scores:
- @ Dallas- tied 14-14
- vs. Colts- losing 16-3
- @ Seattle- winning 17-14
- vs. 49ers- losing 9-7
- vs Dallas- winning 21-10
The Colts game was still in shouting distance, but not great, otherwise, they were right there with better teams, and then they would run out of gas by the end of the game. That's what happens when you have a team with 20 guys on IR. I think the Giants front office looked at this, and looked at the roster, and felt that the problem here is not coaching. Ultimately, what was going to make or break TC this year was if the Giants showed improvement as the season went along, has he developed the young players and has he had his team ready to play. From what we saw, he had a team that can put up a fight for while but eventually the talent gap is too much to overcome.
The Titans game was big from the standpoint, again in evaluating Coughlin, his team blew a 21-0 lead against a bad team. The Giants could well have packed it in and said screw it. But you go back and look and they are up 30-0. This isn't a coach who has lost the team.
I have to admit, I get frustrated with TC at times, and I want to see results and think it might be time to replace him. The bottom line is that good coaches don't forget how to coach. Maybe their message gets lost, and that is a big key. But based on what we've seen, that's not happened. So I think that is why the Giants will keep him around again for another season.
The half time scores u posted shows me, there is talent on this team to be competitive. However, Ss Carl Banks said on the FAN radio, it is so important for coaches to make half time adjustments by the coach regardless of the score . From kwhat I seen, TC sucked on this. I'm so tired of hearing many on this site blaming everyone but TC.
What irks the hell out of me is the way many fans have segregated Coughlin from the rest of the management and players in terms of allocating blame. Why give him credit for the two Super Bowl championships that were engineered based upon his coaching, a good draft, the work of his assistants and the efforts of the players and then absolve him of responsibility when those same factors fail consistently for several years.
You bet your ass a head coach gets major credit for a championship because championships in the NFL are very rare and coaches that have earned two or more are even more rare. In the history of the NFL, there are only 25 HC that have earned multiple championships. Let that sink in: of all the men who have been HC's in the history of the NFL only 25 have won multiple championships. In the Super Bowl era, there are only 13. Those 13 have collectively won over half the Super Bowls.
We have one of those head coaches. You don't discard someone like that as lightly as you characters seem to want to.
So at least report everything he said. He most likely talking out his ass
Quote:
I have lived through the ups and downs of this team for almost 40 years. Accountable means that if you are in charge you get the credit and the blame for the success and failures of the team. By that measure he should be fired.
What irks the hell out of me is the way many fans have segregated Coughlin from the rest of the management and players in terms of allocating blame. Why give him credit for the two Super Bowl championships that were engineered based upon his coaching, a good draft, the work of his assistants and the efforts of the players and then absolve him of responsibility when those same factors fail consistently for several years.
Well, one would think you would have learned something in that time, but apparently not.
You bet your ass a head coach gets major credit for a championship because championships in the NFL are very rare and coaches that have earned two or more are even more rare. In the history of the NFL, there are only 25 HC that have earned multiple championships. Let that sink in: of all the men who have been HC's in the history of the NFL only 25 have won multiple championships. In the Super Bowl era, there are only 13. Those 13 have collectively won over half the Super Bowls.
We have one of those head coaches. You don't discard someone like that as lightly as you characters seem to want to.
How many of those head coaches also don't make the playoffs regularly, and have had two consecutive losing seasons?
They'll lean towards optimism and charge TC with continuing to lead the transition/rebuild is what I'd heard ten days ago.
- talent deficiencies on lines major reason for continued poor seasons
- who out there can do a significantly better job?
- team fighting hard in meaningless games
- execution a big part of losses
- injuries have killed team this year
- he's won two super bowls so knows how to coach
case for coughlin leaving
- the embrassment in seattle which was a read option defense FAIL
- Jax collapse
- continued communication breakdowns in secondary
- not having right personnel on field at end of dallas home game (things happened too quickly)
- his prior focus on discipline/minimizing mistakes is now a weakness (see all of the really preventable dumb INTs, fumbles, penalties which well-coached teams should not make)- it's not just one player but a systemic issue
- year after year his teams lead the league in injuries
- if not for victor cruz's magic 99 yard play or miles austin losing the ball in the lights, this may have been sixth straight season without a playoff birth.
- coughlin involved in personnel decisions too so he is not completely scott free when it comes to talent issues
- playing young talents like moore and kennard too late in the season; sticking with ineffective veterans who are physically done but who know the assignments
- team could use a fresh voice and perspective to bring back culture of winning
I'd prefer to move on, but if he's back and it appears that is the case, I think a new defensive coordinator and special teams coordinator are needed.
Quote:
I have lived through the ups and downs of this team for almost 40 years. Accountable means that if you are in charge you get the credit and the blame for the success and failures of the team. By that measure he should be fired.
What irks the hell out of me is the way many fans have segregated Coughlin from the rest of the management and players in terms of allocating blame. Why give him credit for the two Super Bowl championships that were engineered based upon his coaching, a good draft, the work of his assistants and the efforts of the players and then absolve him of responsibility when those same factors fail consistently for several years.
Well, one would think you would have learned something in that time, but apparently not.
You bet your ass a head coach gets major credit for a championship because championships in the NFL are very rare and coaches that have earned two or more are even more rare. In the history of the NFL, there are only 25 HC that have earned multiple championships. Let that sink in: of all the men who have been HC's in the history of the NFL only 25 have won multiple championships. In the Super Bowl era, there are only 13. Those 13 have collectively won over half the Super Bowls.
We have one of those head coaches. You don't discard someone like that as lightly as you characters seem to want to.
If he wasn't getting credit for his two SB wins he would have been gone already. But you missed my point. I believe in the same concept of team as the coach. He is part of a management team, much of which he put together. So when things go south he should get a share of the blame and you don't simply sacrifice assistants and absolve the coach. Who hired Gilbride and Quinn and Fewell? Who picks the final roster and decides who plays and I what situations? If he has no responsibility for these areas then why is he the Head Coach?
That's the only way to "fire" him, and keep McAdoo. But Reese isn't getting fired. It's not a bad idea at all, but you would have to:
Fire Reese & Ross
Hire a 68 year old into a very high level Ops position.
Promote McAdoo
Is this happening in 2015? I can't see it. Like I said, I really don't think Reese is getting fired. Reese, TC, BM are all safe.
We want the guy who is best for the job, the guy we best believe is going to give us a chance to win. Does TC appear to have answers for righting this ship? Does someone else bring better solutions?
What happened this year is that plans were made to improve the offense. These plans included the change in offensive systems and key upgrades at certain positions. Key personnel (Wilson, Cruz, Schwartz, Jennings, Jernigan) were injured and unable to perform for much or all of the year. Injuries along the offensive line gave almost no time for the same five guys to work together in their respective positions. In spite of this the offense had only a few games where they looked totally inept.
Defensively a decision was made to emphasize the secondary, to make it the strength of the defense. Key players were lost there as well (Hill, Thurmond, Amukamara, with DRC playing injured for most of the year). Additionally, a key player in the middle of the defense was lost (Beason).
In suppose of these circumstances the Giants prayed competitively in 9 of 13 games. They were dominant in a couple of them and are dominated in about four games.
You can say these are excuses that every coach could make, but I disagree. Some teams haven't been competitive at all. Others were competitive but not good enough considering the makeup and health of their team. Finally, none or those other guys on the hot seat have won two title in the past seven years.
TC should stay, IMHO.