He says he's a great run stopper - maybe the best in the NFL - but a lousy pass rusher -- and that he's probably earned Michael Johnson/Michael Bennet money -- $8 million/year
good effort all the time,but needs help around him.A more aggressive DC with other players attacking (LB,S,CB)and you will see him shine.We need to retain the good players we have not let them go away and replace with equal or lesser talent.It's time to get off this merry-go-round and resign some of our own.JPP and Prince along with Cruz and Eli are the core vets to build around.
a commitment risk. after he gets paid is he going to throw down the cheeseburgers like there was no tomorrow like he did after the super bowl? we are thin at the position, but i'm not a big fan, he disappears way too often. i would let him walk.
because he prioritizes playing the run and maintaining contain. I think the Giants should continue what theyve been doing over the last couple weeks and shift him into the interior of the line on occassion.
the Dallas game that JPP played as if he was afraid of both the Eagles and Cowboy tackles, I don't want him at any price. O'Hara showed in clips just how bad he looked when just being blocked by the TE.
If he is playing scared, let somebody else overpay him.
why he has not developed any moves. I thought Strahan was supposed to work with him. But Raanan is correct...he does nothing but the bull rush. I never see a swim move or spin or arm under...nothing. To me, a great player wants to get better and works on his craft.
I don't see that with JPP. But I agree someone will overpay for him if he reaches FA.
because he prioritizes playing the run and maintaining contain. I think the Giants should continue what theyve been doing over the last couple weeks and shift him into the interior of the line on occassion.
'
except when he's not maintaining contain and he makes blake bortles look like steve young.
At 8 mil a season would be a step backwards he could be the best DE rush guy in the league but you don't have to spend 8 mil for that alone. He has all the tools to be the best rush and passing DE in the league or top 3, but he has not done it and his years of development are done. He is a finished product what we have seen in the last three years is who he is. He does not have games where he dominates his man or men he is facing and in truth he could maybe be better off somewhere else. This is a guy who is in on almost every snap yet except for the run has his name called once or twice in two games not one. Ok many will say he needs help but even if you provide better support for him on the line will he be the one that makes the sacks or someone else?
Osi for all his problems against the run was always near or behind the QB which still caused him to walk. Tuck for the same reason was also let go contract, injury and performance just did not come anywhere close. Joseph had the best chance to remain a Giant yet he was also not given the big contract he was seeking even at a very young age and little injury history. These three examples of not falling into the big contract just to keep a player has to continue for this team to rebuild. This team is rebuilding even if we keep TC and Eli you will see another poor performance from next years team they are what they are. They say 8 mil but that's just too much money for a DE that does not get to the QB enough. They can't fall for the Tuck numbers where if you take away one or two games he became invisible. It's hard to work out performance laden contracts because someone trash is always another treasure. This rule is also proven false more than 85% of the time yearly due to the player getting hurt or underperforming something we experienced first hand ourselves.
The draft is the best way to build a team along with very highly controlled FA contracts. It's hard to maintain players for more than 4 years in most cases in todays NFL. So when a young player spends a year just watching it's a disservice to both the player and the team. You have them for four years only to waste one year makes absolutely no sense. The scouts and draft personnel for this team will be the key to how long it takes to rebuild along with the Eli contract question. If Eli is making 18+ mil a year the rebuild could take more than 3-4 years. If we keep both Eli and TC and then have another loosing year then start rebuilding again with a new HC then that's another year wasted I think we have all seen enough of those.
Mike, some of us have been harping on that for a while
He hasn't learned ANYTHING in five years. When he can't just overpower his man, he just stands there and tries to bat down passes. No passrush moves whatsoever.
8M will not get it done. Not with Bennett, Dunalap, Johnson, Long, Griffen all making that now - JPP is a better player
He has played 7 less games than Bennett and has 7 more sacks and 100 more tackles.
It is going to take something in the Chris Long neighborhood (4-48 with 40% guaranteed). Want to argue that Longs deal was done before flat cap, fine. M. Johnson signd 5 years 43.5 16M guaranteed in 2014. JPP is a much better player
I would like to see us keep him. But not at a steep price. Just rewind to the last drive against Dallas. DeMarco Murray just stones him at the line with no help. He has to make plays in big situations and he hasn't done that in years.
$8m plus $250K/sack as incentive... would be a great deal for Giants
I think that would make him the 5th highest paid player on the Giants behind Eli, Rodgers-Cromartie, Cruz and Rolle. 4th highest if Rolle doesn't return.
Not bad for a guy who so far has less sacks in the last 3 seasons combined than he had in his 1 fantastic NFL season, and not bad for a guy who's back will always be a potential issue.
It's a fair contract and if he can get more, best of luck to him.
No. He is ok against the run, maybe solid. One good year in 2011, when the team also had Osi, Tuck and Kiwi making sacks. 4 Yrs 28 million tops and that's being generous
Never going to happen because someone will offer more or never going to happen because the Giants won't go that high?
Thats $7m per year, he'll opt to test FA and somebody will definitely pay him more.
Sometimes you have to over-pay when you first sign a player, knowing that down the line when salaries go up (they do every year), it wouldnt be such a bad deal for the team overall.
wouldn't pay him $8M a year, but somebody will probably pay him a lot more. So the question of whether we should keep him at that number seems moot. Sort of like whether we should draft Amari Cooper. He won't be available.
JPP is an excellent run defender, probably the best in the league at his position. His sack numbers have also undoubtedly been affected by the lack of production at the other DE position. But his pass rush moves still seem limited, he has an injury history with his back, and there may be some questions regarding his commitment if he gets a big contract. It's enough to get me to say no to $8M, but even if the Giants are willing to pay it, somebody else will almost certainly pay a lot more.
and that number will go up... He's not a lousy pass rusher.. He's an amazingly gifted athletic freak. Who hasn't yet taken the time to learn how to play his position. He's been fantastic at times... due to his freakish athletic ability.. Period.
It has been a rough year, I get it but let's RELAX JPP is a top 10 pass rusher/ top 3 run defender and would be among the top 2-3 defenders on most teams in the league and he is only 25. Who is going to replace him if we let him go? Not a blank check type of guy but certainly worth making a major effort to keep. I don't want to see him go down to Philly and kill us with 10 sacks per for the next decade.
It's an interesting question.
MOOPS : 12/3/2014 12:30 pm : link : reply
There certainly is a premium paid for pass rushers. No question about that. But the ability and promise that JPP showed early on in this category is not readily apparent anymore.
Maybe in a different system he could blossom. Maybe with a different DC who could design a blitz or two to free him up a bit? But those are big maybes.
He's probably worth in the $8 or $9 M range for what he currently brings to the table.
you guys keep saying JPP isn't worth X amount of money
so then who is worth it? Who are you gonna pay to play DE here over the next 4-5-6 years? Some guy who looks good for another team? Great...you know that guy has warts too right? And that guy will cost more to come here because he's leaving his team and coming to NY. You will pay more for that every time.
IT would be one thing, maybe, if we had 2-3 young stud DEs in the pipeline but we don't. We have one guy who shows some promise but from all acounts can't remove his head from ass long enough to stay on the field as a starter. And even if Moore is the goods, and he very well might be, we still have no one else.
JPP has his flaws but it's a bigger risk to let him walk then it is to sign him if you ask me. IF you let him walk you are guaranteeing that a huge hole remains at DE.
Simple...JPP is a damn good player. He's got his flaws but overall he's a plus player who holds his own week in week out. HE's played well in big spots...he's played through injuries BEFORE this season. He's probably gonna post double digit sack numbers for the second time in his 4 year career. GOOD LUCK finding that on the open market for bargain basement prices and even more luck is needed if you plan on drafting that guy anytime soon.
If you aren't re-signing JPP for relatively big bucks then you might as well blow the whole thing up and start over now. When you are trying to win, JPP is part of that plan. If you want to lose for another 2-3 years, trade Eli, let JPP walk and enjoy the wilderness.
give me some names that you'd prefer to spend JPP type money on over the next calendar year. Then we need to suspend reality and assume that this player actually agrees to come to NY and play here and then we need to debate whether he's an actual upgrade.
JPP like Joseph last year. Thats why we will be looking at FAs again. Not a good thing when you cannot or will not keep a core of proven players. Maybe we will turn it around after this year.
I liked Joseph and part of me wishes he was still a Giant
Pass that shit you are smoking. No way he is worth that. Cut that in half or pass. Let him go stop a few runs and provide no pass rush somewhere else. This is the same guy who has been outplayed by a mile this year by Robert Ayers. He needs to take an incentive laden contract or let someone else overpay him.
Honestly I was in the don't resign JPP camp until i did some digging and compared his first 5 seasons to Strahan's first 5 seasons.
He's played one game than Strahan did over that time period and has across the board better numbers. How can you give up on someone like that at 26? He's played hard this year and is all over against the run. Swing him to LDE and I think he'll be fine.
1) You let a proven talent like JPP go in free agency to make sure you have cap room to re-sign other talented young players. The Giants have no such talented young players.
2) JPP has never played for a DC other than Fewell. I would be very loath to let a talent like that go before seeing what another DC can get out of him.
3) Saying you can use the money not spent on JPP to sign other vet FAs is close to being inane. Those other vet FAs were also not re-signed by their current club because they have warts.
4) Without JPP, this front 7 has exactly 1 player we can be confident has the talent to be a plus player in the future. (Hankins) 1!
I'm not advocating paying $15mill per for JPP but if the market for a high quality DE is $12 mill, then you f***** pay it and keep him on the team. I don't care if he's not Reggie White. He's still a good player. Rant off.
"Raanan is correct...he does nothing but the bull rush. I never see a swim move or spin or arm under...nothing. To me, a great player wants to get better and works on his craft."
And I'd also add that for such an athletically gifted veteran he's still usually the slowest to get off the line.
Those GIFs show JPP's enormous explosive ability and motor no doubt. That's an awesome bullrush that knocked Tyron Smith on his ass. But how many times did we see him get dead in his tracks stoned using that same bullrush against both Tyron Smith and Jason Peters the last time giants played the Cowboys and Eagles! How many times did we see him get completely shut out one on one this season? Did you forget that last drive against the Cowboys? That's what's so frustrating about him. With the present skill set he's a mediocre pass rusher who flashes. With an Osi level skill set he would be all world, but when is it gonna happen? When is that light bulb finally gonna go off where he decides to do what it takes to excel at his craft?
have had a better four year start to their respective careers?
Take a while guess...
Everyone else...that includes living legends like Strahan, Carson, Marshall, Banks, Tuck, Osi, on and on and on...not one of those guys had a better 4 year start.
JPP was probably a little bit overrated after 2011, and was one of those who overrated him, but now he's ridiculously underrated.
Everyone assumes this guy will only get worse. Why can't he get better? Everyone was scared to death that JPP would STB this season due to the injuries and what not, and all he's done is come out and play well. And he's done it with virtually no help around him. This defense sucks but it's not because of JPP it's despite him. Big difference between the two.
I may be wrong and we may live to regret signing JPP long term but i'd rather be wrong in keeping him. Letting him walk would be nothing short of ridiculous.
'nuff said.
If he is playing scared, let somebody else overpay him.
I don't see that with JPP. But I agree someone will overpay for him if he reaches FA.
except when he's not maintaining contain and he makes blake bortles look like steve young.
Osi for all his problems against the run was always near or behind the QB which still caused him to walk. Tuck for the same reason was also let go contract, injury and performance just did not come anywhere close. Joseph had the best chance to remain a Giant yet he was also not given the big contract he was seeking even at a very young age and little injury history. These three examples of not falling into the big contract just to keep a player has to continue for this team to rebuild. This team is rebuilding even if we keep TC and Eli you will see another poor performance from next years team they are what they are. They say 8 mil but that's just too much money for a DE that does not get to the QB enough. They can't fall for the Tuck numbers where if you take away one or two games he became invisible. It's hard to work out performance laden contracts because someone trash is always another treasure. This rule is also proven false more than 85% of the time yearly due to the player getting hurt or underperforming something we experienced first hand ourselves.
The draft is the best way to build a team along with very highly controlled FA contracts. It's hard to maintain players for more than 4 years in most cases in todays NFL. So when a young player spends a year just watching it's a disservice to both the player and the team. You have them for four years only to waste one year makes absolutely no sense. The scouts and draft personnel for this team will be the key to how long it takes to rebuild along with the Eli contract question. If Eli is making 18+ mil a year the rebuild could take more than 3-4 years. If we keep both Eli and TC and then have another loosing year then start rebuilding again with a new HC then that's another year wasted I think we have all seen enough of those.
He has played 7 less games than Bennett and has 7 more sacks and 100 more tackles.
It is going to take something in the Chris Long neighborhood (4-48 with 40% guaranteed). Want to argue that Longs deal was done before flat cap, fine. M. Johnson signd 5 years 43.5 16M guaranteed in 2014. JPP is a much better player
Put him on the other side
Heck... I'd sign him at $10m with that incentive
Never going to happen
Not bad for a guy who so far has less sacks in the last 3 seasons combined than he had in his 1 fantastic NFL season, and not bad for a guy who's back will always be a potential issue.
It's a fair contract and if he can get more, best of luck to him.
Thats $7m per year, he'll opt to test FA and somebody will definitely pay him more.
Sometimes you have to over-pay when you first sign a player, knowing that down the line when salaries go up (they do every year), it wouldnt be such a bad deal for the team overall.
JPP is an excellent run defender, probably the best in the league at his position. His sack numbers have also undoubtedly been affected by the lack of production at the other DE position. But his pass rush moves still seem limited, he has an injury history with his back, and there may be some questions regarding his commitment if he gets a big contract. It's enough to get me to say no to $8M, but even if the Giants are willing to pay it, somebody else will almost certainly pay a lot more.
Lamaar Houston and his 17 career sacks and less tackles just got 5-35 with 9M guaranteed. He is not good.
Carlos Dunlap just got 5 years and 39M w/ 11.7 guaranteed
Everson Griffen 5-42.5 19.8 guaranteed
Micheal Johnson 5--43.750 16.7 guaranteed
Junior Gallete - 40M extension w/16M guaranteed
JPP is not going to get less than the above players, as he is a much better player
Lamaar Houston and his 17 career sacks and less tackles just got 5-35 with 9M guaranteed. He is not good.
Carlos Dunlap just got 5 years and 39M w/ 11.7 guaranteed
Everson Griffen 5-42.5 19.8 guaranteed
Micheal Johnson 5--43.750 16.7 guaranteed
Junior Gallete - 40M extension w/16M guaranteed
JPP is not going to get less than the above players, as he is a much better player
Thats my point... I dont think Giants have any chance to sign him for less than $10m/year.
People will only look at sacks.
His game against Was he dominated T. Williams with constant pressure, caused throws to be int's and had no sacks
He is an excellent player and the Giants are not better without him.
Sign him and move him to the other side.
MOOPS : 12/3/2014 12:30 pm : link : reply
There certainly is a premium paid for pass rushers. No question about that. But the ability and promise that JPP showed early on in this category is not readily apparent anymore.
Maybe in a different system he could blossom. Maybe with a different DC who could design a blitz or two to free him up a bit? But those are big maybes.
He's probably worth in the $8 or $9 M range for what he currently brings to the table.
IT would be one thing, maybe, if we had 2-3 young stud DEs in the pipeline but we don't. We have one guy who shows some promise but from all acounts can't remove his head from ass long enough to stay on the field as a starter. And even if Moore is the goods, and he very well might be, we still have no one else.
JPP has his flaws but it's a bigger risk to let him walk then it is to sign him if you ask me. IF you let him walk you are guaranteeing that a huge hole remains at DE.
Simple...JPP is a damn good player. He's got his flaws but overall he's a plus player who holds his own week in week out. HE's played well in big spots...he's played through injuries BEFORE this season. He's probably gonna post double digit sack numbers for the second time in his 4 year career. GOOD LUCK finding that on the open market for bargain basement prices and even more luck is needed if you plan on drafting that guy anytime soon.
If you aren't re-signing JPP for relatively big bucks then you might as well blow the whole thing up and start over now. When you are trying to win, JPP is part of that plan. If you want to lose for another 2-3 years, trade Eli, let JPP walk and enjoy the wilderness.
Let's talk names...hit me with em.
They won't let JPP get away without a fight. I guarantee it.
Quote:
Do people see what other players at similar position make before throwing numbers out there
Lamaar Houston and his 17 career sacks and less tackles just got 5-35 with 9M guaranteed. He is not good.
Carlos Dunlap just got 5 years and 39M w/ 11.7 guaranteed
Everson Griffen 5-42.5 19.8 guaranteed
Micheal Johnson 5--43.750 16.7 guaranteed
Junior Gallete - 40M extension w/16M guaranteed
JPP is not going to get less than the above players, as he is a much better player
Thats my point... I dont think Giants have any chance to sign him for less than $10m/year.
I think the Giants would sign him for similar money as the above contracts.
Complete nonsense. But you're not alone. Others have tried to get this type of uninformed BS to stick on BBI.
He's played one game than Strahan did over that time period and has across the board better numbers. How can you give up on someone like that at 26? He's played hard this year and is all over against the run. Swing him to LDE and I think he'll be fine.
2) JPP has never played for a DC other than Fewell. I would be very loath to let a talent like that go before seeing what another DC can get out of him.
3) Saying you can use the money not spent on JPP to sign other vet FAs is close to being inane. Those other vet FAs were also not re-signed by their current club because they have warts.
4) Without JPP, this front 7 has exactly 1 player we can be confident has the talent to be a plus player in the future. (Hankins) 1!
I'm not advocating paying $15mill per for JPP but if the market for a high quality DE is $12 mill, then you f***** pay it and keep him on the team. I don't care if he's not Reggie White. He's still a good player. Rant off.
"Raanan is correct...he does nothing but the bull rush. I never see a swim move or spin or arm under...nothing. To me, a great player wants to get better and works on his craft."
And I'd also add that for such an athletically gifted veteran he's still usually the slowest to get off the line.
Brilliant.
Take a while guess...
Everyone else...that includes living legends like Strahan, Carson, Marshall, Banks, Tuck, Osi, on and on and on...not one of those guys had a better 4 year start.
JPP was probably a little bit overrated after 2011, and was one of those who overrated him, but now he's ridiculously underrated.
Everyone assumes this guy will only get worse. Why can't he get better? Everyone was scared to death that JPP would STB this season due to the injuries and what not, and all he's done is come out and play well. And he's done it with virtually no help around him. This defense sucks but it's not because of JPP it's despite him. Big difference between the two.
I may be wrong and we may live to regret signing JPP long term but i'd rather be wrong in keeping him. Letting him walk would be nothing short of ridiculous.
We don't need another hole. He's not easily replaceable with "a body"
If someone wants to overpay, fine.