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NFT: Russian Ruble Collapsing

armstead98 : 12/16/2014 9:20 am
It's a moving target but the currency was down over 20% earlier today and 56% YTD. The collapse in oil prices coupled with tighter sanctions has led to a currency crisis that seems now to be self-fulfilling.

Last night the RCB raised rates from 10% to 17% but obviously that didn't help.

Putin certainly doesn't seem like the all powerful dictator people were making him out to be only a few months ago.

Is there anything the country can do at this point to prevent a total collapse of their economy and currency?
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Gregor can float them a loan  
Greg from LI : 12/16/2014 9:22 am : link
He haz it

I saw the cover of The Economist...  
Dunedin81 : 12/16/2014 9:24 am : link
"Sheiks vs. Shale"

Bullshit. All is not well in the Gulf, but they're plenty happy to see the collapse of the Russian and Venezuelan economies in the short term because they're in it for the long term.
Question is, how long can these depressed oil prices last?  
jcn56 : 12/16/2014 9:25 am : link
And, should we be buying some USO and the like to make some money off of it when they do bounce back up?
Ochen ploxo  
GFL in WV : 12/16/2014 9:26 am : link
Yeltsin dyrok, Rossiya golzhna svoboda budyet.

Too bad, start hocking missles and tanks.
RE: Question is, how long can these depressed oil prices last?  
Dunedin81 : 12/16/2014 9:28 am : link
In comment 12037214 jcn56 said:
Quote:
And, should we be buying some USO and the like to make some money off of it when they do bounce back up?


They'll bounce back when the financial turmoil begets questions over Russia's economic and political stability.
Oil prices are going to be low for a while  
armstead98 : 12/16/2014 9:34 am : link
The US shale boom has fundamentally shifted the supply-demand dynamic. Most of the capex has been spent so now the US companies will work on lowering prices.

Meanwhile everyone else is going full speed ahead at their own pumps.
RE: Oil prices are going to be low for a while  
Dunedin81 : 12/16/2014 9:38 am : link
In comment 12037239 armstead98 said:
Quote:
The US shale boom has fundamentally shifted the supply-demand dynamic. Most of the capex has been spent so now the US companies will work on lowering prices.

Meanwhile everyone else is going full speed ahead at their own pumps.


There is still a point at which it ceases to become profitable, and if OPEC really decided it wanted to kill shale in its, umm, toddlerhood it would keep the prices consistently low long enough to run those companies under. But other countries, Russia for instance, don't have a medium and long-term outlook and so can't endure that. I think the more likely outcome is that the Gulf more or less accepts that demand has risen enough that a stable supply of moderately priced oil is in our interests and theirs, and that the Venezuelas and Russias of the world are problems for a variety of reasons.
Asking the wrong question about depressed oil prices  
Rob in NYC : 12/16/2014 9:38 am : link
The real question is what is the true price of oil absent the distortion of global QE?

And the decline in the ruble actually helps the Russian oil industry...
Yeah, it's pretty under reported how US oil production is basically at  
BeerFridge : 12/16/2014 9:39 am : link
a high.
So what does Putin do?  
GShock : 12/16/2014 9:40 am : link
Sanctions that hurt select supporters and make life worse for his citizens is obviously manageable. Do a little saber rattling for patriotic morale and soldier on.

Full-scale currency collapse that could cause broad social upheaval and abandonment by the elites?

Not looking forward to his response.
The belief of the U.S. government is that the  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 9:41 am : link
elasticity of gas demand is near 0. So, the price drops free up money for the U.S. consumer, as well as the propensity to consume (and debt desirability) being different.

I think Phil has nailed this. Oil is an engine that runs on consumer purchases, and those have been notoriously poor recently.
And, with a cartel, the notion that  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 9:43 am : link
oil prices can be used as a policy tool, like so many un-named securities, becomes much more of a global reality.
The  
AcidTest : 12/16/2014 9:44 am : link
Russian economy is the proverbial one trick pony: oil. When that collapses, so does their economy.

I do wonder whether low oil prices will create instability in the Middle East. Many of these countries have been using oil profits for large domestic spending programs that to some extent placate the population. There will be less money for that as oil revenue declines.

For now, the decline is operating as something like a $60B tax cut for Americans. I also think now is a good time to invest in oil. This is still the dominant fuel going forward.
Many of the ME countries can survive sustained  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 9:47 am : link
low oil prices with their reserves. Saudi Arabia is one. Some OPEC countries, like Venezuala and Iran, can't...
RE: The  
Dunedin81 : 12/16/2014 9:49 am : link
In comment 12037279 AcidTest said:
Quote:
Russian economy is the proverbial one trick pony: oil. When that collapses, so does their economy.

I do wonder whether low oil prices will create instability in the Middle East. Many of these countries have been using oil profits for large domestic spending programs that to some extent placate the population. There will be less money for that as oil revenue declines.

For now, the decline is operating as something like a $60B tax cut for Americans. I also think now is a good time to invest in oil. This is still the dominant fuel going forward.


Right now you've got some serious challenges from Tesla and the electric cars, among other things, and that technology will presumably come down in price as it becomes scalable and waystations are developed. The last oil price spike created some behavioral changes too, changes likely to continue or even accelerate if it spikes again. The Gulf countries have smart people at the helm and substantial currency reserves, they know they are better off with moderately priced oil than with trying to extract the most they can in a 5-10 year period of high prices.
RE: RE: Oil prices are going to be low for a while  
armstead98 : 12/16/2014 9:51 am : link
In comment 12037253 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
In comment 12037239 armstead98 said:


Quote:





There is still a point at which it ceases to become profitable, and if OPEC really decided it wanted to kill shale in its, umm, toddlerhood it would keep the prices consistently low long enough to run those companies under. But other countries, Russia for instance, don't have a medium and long-term outlook and so can't endure that. I think the more likely outcome is that the Gulf more or less accepts that demand has risen enough that a stable supply of moderately priced oil is in our interests and theirs, and that the Venezuelas and Russias of the world are problems for a variety of reasons.


Of course there's a point where it ceases to be profitable but that's probably at $40-50 per barrel. Far lower than where it currently is.
About what you'd expect, as McCain said, from  
BillT : 12/16/2014 9:57 am : link
A gas station masquerading as a country.
RE: Asking the wrong question about depressed oil prices  
Phil from WNY : 12/16/2014 10:06 am : link
In comment 12037254 Rob in NYC said:
Quote:
The real question is what is the true price of oil absent the distortion of global QE?

And the decline in the ruble actually helps the Russian oil industry...


There's an addendum to that question: what's the true price of oil absent the distortion of China's negative ROIC investment policies? This is the most important question for all commodities and all emerging markets.

The answer is much lower...
Correct  
RetroJint : 12/16/2014 10:07 am : link
Franking allows for a profit at roughly 45 per barrel. You won't see oil prices rising any time soon. That includes a scenario whereby the Sauds cut production. Yet another benefit of a strong US dollar as well. Although it's dismissed as "just another inout" by people like Peak Krugman, lower energy costs act as both a tax cut and a wage hike, stimulating our economy while fucking gangster regimes in Russia, Venezuela & the Middle East. There is also a national security benefit to that "just another input."
RE: RE: Asking the wrong question about depressed oil prices  
Rob in NYC : 12/16/2014 10:08 am : link
In comment 12037334 Phil from WNY said:
Quote:
In comment 12037254 Rob in NYC said:


Quote:


The real question is what is the true price of oil absent the distortion of global QE?

And the decline in the ruble actually helps the Russian oil industry...



There's an addendum to that question: what's the true price of oil absent the distortion of China's negative ROIC investment policies? This is the most important question for all commodities and all emerging markets.

The answer is much lower...


Replace QE in my post with "central bank intervention" and the two thoughts merge:)
Phil and Kicker  
Dunedin81 : 12/16/2014 10:08 am : link
Do you think the decision of OPEC not to scale back production and raise oil prices was a strategy aimed at least in part at undercutting Russia, Iran and Venezuela?
RE: I saw the cover of The Economist...  
buford : 12/16/2014 10:10 am : link
In comment 12037209 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
"Sheiks vs. Shale"

Bullshit. All is not well in the Gulf, but they're plenty happy to see the collapse of the Russian and Venezuelan economies in the short term because they're in it for the long term.


Don't forget Iran. In fact, the Iranians are suggesting that the Saudis are working with the US to keep oil prices low to strangle Iran.

Russia, Iran, Venezuela. Bankrupt them all.
Fun fact  
Rob in NYC : 12/16/2014 10:11 am : link
outside of shale states (TX, CO, WV, ND and PA), how many jobs have been created in the United States since January 2008?
Dune  
Phil from WNY : 12/16/2014 10:13 am : link
I think it's mostly aimed at a rapidly weakening global economy. I think OPEC knows that if the global economy weakens further, that a potential contagion is possible which would take oil prices to this level anyway. My best guess is that it's a desperate attempt to re-start the consumption engine with the equivalent of a tax break. Pressuring Russia and Venezuela is just a side benefit.
RE: Phil and Kicker  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 10:20 am : link
In comment 12037343 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
Do you think the decision of OPEC not to scale back production and raise oil prices was a strategy aimed at least in part at undercutting Russia, Iran and Venezuela?


It's a nice fuck you side effect, but Phil has been spot on. I'll follow his thoughts.
RE: Fun fact  
BrettNYG10 : 12/16/2014 10:22 am : link
In comment 12037353 Rob in NYC said:
Quote:
outside of shale states (TX, CO, WV, ND and PA), how many jobs have been created in the United States since January 2008?


This seems more like a question than a fact.
RE: RE: Fun fact  
Rob in NYC : 12/16/2014 10:25 am : link
In comment 12037380 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 12037353 Rob in NYC said:


Quote:


outside of shale states (TX, CO, WV, ND and PA), how many jobs have been created in the United States since January 2008?



This seems more like a question than a fact.


Once answered...douche?
Looking at a Central Valley CA oil prospectus, they have  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 10:28 am : link
argued that oil and shale is largely the reason CA has fiscal viability.
RE: Fun fact  
BillT : 12/16/2014 10:29 am : link
In comment 12037353 Rob in NYC said:
Quote:
outside of shale states (TX, CO, WV, ND and PA), how many jobs have been created in the United States since January 2008?


Not Many? (Am I close?)
Anyway, the US economy  
Rob in NYC : 12/16/2014 10:30 am : link
outside of the shale states has lost 32,000 jobs since January of '08.
Maybe even  
buford : 12/16/2014 10:30 am : link
negaive....
RE: Fun fact  
Greg from LI : 12/16/2014 10:31 am : link
In comment 12037353 Rob in NYC said:
Quote:
outside of shale states (TX, CO, WV, ND and PA), how many jobs have been created in the United States since January 2008?


Headhunter has assured me that the labor market is robust!
RE: RE: RE: Fun fact  
BrettNYG10 : 12/16/2014 10:32 am : link
In comment 12037391 Rob in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 12037380 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 12037353 Rob in NYC said:


Quote:


outside of shale states (TX, CO, WV, ND and PA), how many jobs have been created in the United States since January 2008?



This seems more like a question than a fact.



Once answered...douche?


Oh, I'm going to do with the US losing 32K jobs then. Just a guess.
go with*  
BrettNYG10 : 12/16/2014 10:33 am : link
.
Can I edit out the question mark  
Rob in NYC : 12/16/2014 10:34 am : link
after douche in my last response to you...seems not be a question so much anymore.
RE: RE: Fun fact  
x meadowlander : 12/16/2014 10:37 am : link
In comment 12037380 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 12037353 Rob in NYC said:


Quote:


outside of shale states (TX, CO, WV, ND and PA), how many jobs have been created in the United States since January 2008?



This seems more like a question than a fact.


Yeah, I don't follow that either.

Private Sector job growth has been positive in all states since the economy bottomed out in 2010. Some better than others. Tracking the same stat from 2008 - not sure what you're trying to prove. That overall, we're basically back at 2008 levels of employment excepting North Dakota?
Congress: Most Recent State by State Report - ( New Window )
RE: Can I edit out the question mark  
BrettNYG10 : 12/16/2014 10:38 am : link
In comment 12037415 Rob in NYC said:
Quote:
after douche in my last response to you...seems not be a question so much anymore.


I just assumed the question mark was a typo.
I thought I was pretty clear  
Rob in NYC : 12/16/2014 10:40 am : link
Since 2008, but for the states I mentioned, job growth has been negative. Seemed relevant on a thread discussing the price of oil and the associated profitability of certain projects.
You mean tracking something from the bottom of a trough  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 10:42 am : link
won't more than likely be rosy?

Comparing to pre-recession periods is the correct way to attack most of the problems...
RE: Anyway, the US economy  
BillT : 12/16/2014 10:45 am : link
In comment 12037404 Rob in NYC said:
Quote:
outside of the shale states has lost 32,000 jobs since January of '08.


I win! (BTW, you left out Oklahoma which is having an oil/gas boom as well)
Im surprisingly happy about the Ruble collapse  
Deej : 12/16/2014 10:47 am : link
its really sucks for a people to go thru this, but something needs to gets these Russians in line. That's a country that could absolutely be going thru an economic miracle -- they have the oil (which once again is a curse) + high skill/schools + size. Instead they have this ridiculous cartoon villain Putin who just gratuitously fucks with neighboring countries. Glad this is blowing up in his face.

On the job growth  
Deej : 12/16/2014 10:48 am : link
one could argue that artificially high oil prices have suffocated job growth elsewhere in the US, and now the non-oil states are primed to boom.
The recession hit in September of 2008 right?  
Pete in 'Vliet : 12/16/2014 10:48 am : link
It seems that Shale production has really helped to keep us out of a deeper recession or depression.

Does any one have any stats as to how much of the job growth in the past 2 years have come from shale states?

Just a question, not a fact :)
Except all of the demographics are going against Russia,  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 10:49 am : link
even if Putin was not in charge.

Look at life expectancy, alcoholism rates, child malnutrition figures, and the rate of growth in height of the average Russian.

Russia, right now, is being doomed by a lot of demographic factors.
nevermind my question  
Pete in 'Vliet : 12/16/2014 10:50 am : link
already has been discussed. i take too long to write. :)
RE: Except all of the demographics are going against Russia,  
Greg from LI : 12/16/2014 10:53 am : link
In comment 12037458 kickerpa16 said:
Quote:
even if Putin was not in charge.

Look at life expectancy, alcoholism rates, child malnutrition figures, and the rate of growth in height of the average Russian.

Russia, right now, is being doomed by a lot of demographic factors.


Isn't something like half of the adult male population of Russia alcoholics?
RE: On the job growth  
Rob in NYC : 12/16/2014 10:54 am : link
In comment 12037453 Deej said:
Quote:
one could argue that artificially high oil prices have suffocated job growth elsewhere in the US, and now the non-oil states are primed to boom.


I am not sure I see that...
It might also include significant drug usage, but yes  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 10:54 am : link
...
High oil prices inhibiting growth means that cost-push inflation  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 10:57 am : link
has reared its head one of the few (single hand) times in the past 150 years.

The fact that significant technological innovations, or alternative activities, we're not being done en masse (I.ex, lots of movements towards alternative energies) hints that this is a weak, at best, hypothesis.
And, if true, you should see a rather rapid explosion with even  
kickerpa16 : 12/16/2014 10:58 am : link
temporary decreases in the price of oil. Black Friday and Cyber Monday sales don't support this, and neither do the aggregate employment trends.
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